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The AIH Transcript for December 27, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello. I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

HM: A desperately needed start. A doctors group helps get 29 critically ill Syrians out of a besieged area, but they say there are hundreds of thousands more who need help.

JD: A wonder on the ice. Former Leaf Dick Duff remembers Johnny Bower, the goaltender whose net was so hard to reach the called him hockey’s “China Wall.”

HM: Taking great pains. Despite being stabbed by an attacker for welcoming too many refugees, a German mayor says his policy was a win-win for both the newcomers and his town.

JD: Light’s out. A German artist says if Toronto could not trust its commuters to type what they please into his art installation then maybe they shouldn't have installed his art in their new subway station.

HM: No kidding. A Seattle pediatrician pens a tongue-in-cheek takedown of the health care freeloaders that get blamed for ruining the U.S. medical system. The freeloaders in her practice being of course babies.

JD: And… still kidding. Somehow despite a 50 year tradition of trying to reduce the thing to flames and smoke, this year, Gavle’s straw Christmas goat remains entirely unsinged.

JD: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that never skips a bleat.

Back To Top »

Part one: Syrian children, Johnny Bower obit, TTC art

Syrian Children

Guest: Mohamad Katoub

JD: There are more than 400,000 Syrians living in the rebel-controlled region of Eastern Ghouta. Now, 29 of the most desperately ill are on their way out. They're being evacuated from the city because they need medical treatment. It's the result of a deal brokered by aid groups with both the rebels and the government in Damascus. Dr. Mohamad Katoub is helping to organize the patient transfer. Dr. Katoub is a member of the Syrian American Medical Society Foundation. We reached him in Gaziantep, Turkey.

HM: Dr. Katoub, what kind of conditions have some of these evacuees been living with in recent times?

MOHAMAD KATOUB: Well, those evacuees have been seeking medical evacuation outside of Ghouta since months now because they don't have the treatment that they need because of the siege. The services that we can provide in this area is shrinking day by day. Now, we have a list of 641 people who need to be treated out of Ghouta.

HM: So you were dealing with at this point 29 people who were to be brought out for medical care. How do you make the choice as to who is removed and who stays behind?

MK: This list was prepared two months ago, where at that time, the number of people who needed medical evacuation was much less than now. And at that time, a long discussion with the U.N. and others to stakeholders in the area took place. And finally we could have an agreement that the very urgent cases should be evacuated. So the local staff made the evaluation considering this limited number. And they preferred only to put on the list only people who definitely will survive if they are out. So we submitted this list two months ago to the U.N., but the U.N. couldn't get the approval from the Syrian government. During this time, the conditions are completely different. We have much bigger number of people who need evacuation. 18 People died waiting for the medical evacuation. One of them is from this shortlist of 29.

HM: That's the baby that you tweeted out about. You had hoped to bring that baby out, and the child has died?

MK: Yeah, this is a six-month girl. She died a few days ago; we didn't know. This morning, the local staff reached her family to tell them the good news that finally we get the approval for your child to be out, but the family told us that the girl died a few days ago before the approval happened. This girl could survive two months ago if she was evacuated.

HM: So now you have these 28 people that you are getting out. Can you tell us a little bit about a few of them, perhaps a couple of the more acute cases? What they're dealing with in terms of their health challenges?

MK: Well, 18 of them are children. Many of them have heart defects. Others have cancer. We have one case of a rare disease; it's something similar to hemophilia. And this child has been suffering in Ghouta without her medicine. We have leukemia cases. We have patients with kidney transplants where they need specific medicines and they need advanced treatment. All of those cannot be treated in Ghouta unfortunately, either because of lack of capacity or lack of medicines.

HM: Now you told me a few moments ago that you have 641 people who really need urgent medical attention that they cannot get it in Ghouta. Why are you able to only get so few out at this point?

MK: Because of the blockade of those requests from the Syrian government. The Syrian government don't allow us to evacuate those people to the capital Damascus, which is only 10 kilometers away to treat to the patients. Many international emissaries and actors have been involved in this. And making appeals and calls to evacuate those patients, but this couldn't happen.

HM: This particular evacuation comes on the heels of a deal between Syria and a rebel group that controls Eastern Ghouta. What are the terms of that deal?

MK: We have few information about this. What we know that the list of 29 people is approved because there is a deal to include a release of some detainees who were detained by the local armed group.

HM: So these are detainees who have been captured by the rebel group or have at least ended up in captivity held by them. Is it head-for-head? I mean is it supposed to be 29 people are released in exchange for the original 29 that you were supposed to get out?

MK: This is what we heard from our local staff, but we don't have confirmed information. The local armed group declare that this is head-for-head. But we don't have confirmation because we are not involved in the evacuation of the detainees.

HM: Will you try to add another person now that the baby has died?

MK: Yeah, there's some negotiations about adding another patient. So we will have the 29 spaces. Also, there are four patients who received information from the International Committee of the Red Cross that they couldn't get the security clearance from the Syrian government for them. So those four patients are concerned about being evacuated from the government area.

HM: Right. So those four people are scared if they go to Damascus that they may be captured by the Syrian government?

MK: There is previous experience where one of the family members of the evacuees was arrested. So people are scared to face the same conditions.

HM: Now, when do you hope that all of these 28 or possibly 29 people will actually have been removed from Eastern Ghouta?

MK: Tonight, another ten will be evacuated. Tomorrow, the rest will be out of Ghouta. But this is not the whole issue. This is a very minor step in saving the lives in Ghouta. We have hundreds of thousands who live there; we have 400,000 people live in the area. And they need a lot of aid, including food, medicine, vaccines, and many other items. So this is a minor step. Hopefully, it will go smoothly, but we hope that we will get more patients out and more aid in.

HM: What do you think it will take to allow that to happen?

MK: We don't have any expectation about this because all the pressure from the international community couldn’t work to push the Syrian government to allow aid in or to allow patients out. So we don't have expectations. We don't have high hopes, but we need everyone with us to keep the pressure and to fill the void of the voices of the people in need in Ghouta.

HM: Dr. Katoub, thank you so much for talking to us. And I wish you the very best of luck in getting as many of these people out as you can.

MK: Thank you very much. Thank you.

HM: All right. Goodbye.

JD: Dr. Mohamad Katoub is speaking for the Syrian American Medical Society Foundation. We reached him in Gaziantep, Turkey. We have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Johnny Bower obit

Guest: Dick Duff

JD: Game Two of the 1967 Stanley Cup Finals, Toronto Maple Leafs versus the Montreal Canadiens. The score? Three-nothing. Ten seconds left on the clock. Here goes...

SOUNDCLIP

FOSTER HEWITT: Johnny Bower, ten seconds away from a shutout. Canadiens are down. Stopped at the line and rolled over. Two seconds, Backstrom takes the shot at Johnny Bower. Picks up the puck as a momento of a great performance here, shutting out the Canadiens, and a great all-around team effort.

JD: Johnny Bower shut 'em out. The Toronto Maple Leaf goaltending great died yesterday. He was 93 years old. Mr. Bower was a 4-time Stanley Cup champ in the ‘60s. He was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1976. Dick Duff was Johnny Bower's teammate when they played for the Leafs, and they remained lifelong friends. We reached Mr. Duff in Toronto.

HM: Dick Duff, first of all, our condolences on the loss of your friend.

DICK DUFF: Yeah, John was a great man. He did lots of things for lots of people in Toronto. So you know he was at a pretty healthy age, and he wasn’t sick for very long. So hopefully, he went quietly in the night.

HM: You know looking back you must be thinking about him a lot today. What was it like playing hockey with Johnny Bower?

DD: Well, we had a lot of fun with him. But also, he was a very intense competitor. You see him after his playing days are over and he is very nice with everybody and quiet. But I mean he worked hard in practice and in the game. I mean in those days there was only one goalie on each team, eh? And so it was a grind, and he stuck it out, and then he helped his guys. I was there for two of the Stanley Cups, and then he was on for two more. So they won four cups during the time that he was there. And he was also well-liked in the room. We had a lot of fun with him because of his age; he was like our father.

HM: Now, he had this nickname that “China Wall.” How did he earn that?

DD: They give it to him and I think in the American Hockey League really. I think because it was the symbolism of the Great Wall in China. So I mean somebody came up with a nickname because hey, he was hard to put the puck by, you know? I mean he was a damn good goalie, he worked hard at it, and he was with us, hey John, get the hell off the ice! Do you mind! I mean you're the oldest guy here. As long as you stay here we can’t leave. The practice is over, so the young guys go of the ice and say if we ever go off the ice, and the goalie is still there — the old guy — the coach would say get the hell back on the ice! What are you doing coming off the ice for crying out loud!

HM: Yeah, well he was 34 when he came to the Leafs. I mean you're saying he was older — at that time really, right?

DD: Right, at that time, NHL guys were retiring, or they were retiring you OK. Because they could start another kid; they had an endless supply of talent coming through the system. And so they could say hey, this guy has a 20,000 dollar salary. Let’s start this other kid back at seven.

HM: Yeah, so this is not the era of multimillion dollar contracts.

DD: No, no, no, no.

HM: It's kind of good to be reminded this was an era when goalies didn't wear a mask. So what did he look like during hockey season?

DD: It always surprised me that they would even play in net. They would never get me in net — there wouldn't be enough money. But those guys’ legs and arms would be yellow, green, black from stopping the pucks, eh? And it never went away until August, and in September, the training camps started again. To be in there, truthfully, if you ever check back the history of hockey — and particularly the goalies — when they were 30, these guys were 60. It wasn't a very easy job, you know?

HM: Yeah, we’re talking about him being this “China Wall” as if the solidness of him in that net was all of it. But there was more to it, right? Like he actually kept a lot of goals going in with some special moves he had of his own.

DD: Yeah, yeah, yeah with throwing his stick out there and sweeping it away in front of the net. I mean he was fearless — these guys were fearless — because I mean they didn't have masks on. And even his good buddy Howe, he bumped into him lots of times. When the game is on it's on. And if you're in the way too bad, it knocks you down, sorry, get up. And they also had the pressure of the winning/losing all time because I mean a lot of games could be decided by one goal. And it they let in a bad goal, it kind of stayed with them, you know? At least in the Toronto system we were kind of a defensive-oriented system. So I kid him all the time and say, John, every time I see a damn picture of you there's three Leaf guys’ sweaters within five feet of you. Sometimes I think I could put the pads on. He said yeah, do you want to? I said no, I don't think so. I take it back. I take it back. I don't want to.

HM: The two of you were friends for life. What was he like to his family, to friends like you? What kind of person was he after he left the game?

DD: John was generous with people. And I think he was concerned about his family. We weren’t the greatest paid guys, you know? I mean he had to make sure there was income coming in, and winning was going to be finished, but then what? But for the Providence Villa he came every year for I would say the last 20 years. John Bower and myself, Red Kelly…

HM: For people outside Toronto, I should just say Providence Villa is like a convalescent and a seniors’ centre.

DD: Yeah, it’s probably the top one in Toronto. And John always made himself available for the tournament. So there was lots of that stuff that goes on. We had the 93 birthday, and like big Frank doesn't go out to a lot of things. He said yeah dick, I’ll go there for John Bower’s birthday; happy to. You know we could get other guys that normally don't come to come out, right?

HM: Because he was so well-liked?

DD: Yeah, I would say so. And when these guys run the museums and memorabilia places, John is one of the guys they want there because his stuff people will buy, you know? Or they’ll bring stuff that they want John to sign, right?

HM: On top of being this excellent goalie, he was a musician of sorts. Do you remember Honky the Christmas Goose?

DD: No, but I heard them playing it today. It was great. I said John I didn't know you could have had a second career for crying out loud. Not as many stitches involved, and not as headaches, and you might have worse teammates than us though.

HM: Now, you played for the Leafs when they were in their glory days.

DD: Yeah.

HM: A lot of people talk about that time with such envy. Do you have a particular memory of Johnny Bower — John Bower as you call him — from that time that's sort of sustaining you today that you're thinking about?

DD: No, there’s lots because I spent a lot of time with John. And know the long road trips to Chicago and these places. I just think he had a generous spirit in our midst. And he respected people, he liked people, and anything that he could do it to make your situation better, he was quite willing to be involved.

HM: Well, Mr. Duff, it's a privilege to talk to you today. Thank you for joining us.

DD: OK, you're very welcome.

HM: All right. My best to you.

DD: OK. Bye bye.

JD: Dick Duff is a former Toronto Maple Leaf teammate, and a friend of Johnny Bower. We reached Mr. Duff in Toronto. Johnny Bower, the great goaltender, died yesterday. He was 93 years old. We’ve posted to that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

TTC art

Guest: Tim Edler

JD: A group of artists from Germany spent years designing and then helping to install their big new work in the Toronto subway's new Pioneer Village station. The instillation is called LightSpell and, for a half-million bucks, it was supposed to let commuters type short messages for public display. The station has now been up and running for a month, but the Toronto Transit Commission — the TTC — has yet to turn LightSpell on. That's because, of course, they're worried about what some might type, what they might choose to spell. Tim Edler is cofounder of the German artist collective realities:united — that is a collective that designed LightSpell. We reached him in Berlin.

HM: Mr. Edler, what was your first reaction when you heard this news that your art installation would not be turned on?

TIM EDLER: It was actually a quite large surprise for us because we have been working on this piece for a few years — since 2009 — and we've been through many rounds of discussion regarding the issue of profanity et cetera as a possible entry for the piece.

HM: Maybe you could help us by explaining the work itself; describe it, and how it will work?

TE: We are talking about a subway station, and above the platform, there's a large string of so-called 16 segment displays. That's an old-fashioned way of displaying characters. And the way the text is created is by a number of terminals on platform, which allow people to enter short phrases, but only very limited — only like up to 8 characters at a time.

HM: And how long would that text string be up on the screen or on the display?

TE: It's up there until someone else walks to a terminal and types at least the erase button.

HM: So you said you've been talking about this for quite some time, and there were perhaps some concerns early on that LightSpell might be able to be misused. What was the nature of the conversations you had?

TE: I think it was very reasonable. I mean the TTC their focus is on transporting people, it’s not a communication company. We had been aware that we were entering a new realm of discussion by saying there's now a technical means of communication or expression even of people. And so we understood that the TTC wanted to make sure that that they are not providing a chance for people feeling annoyed or even insulted by text that could feel like profanity, but even worse hate speech. The bottom line was to first have a look actually what happens. So we thought based on that very closed-circuit experiment that there would be a chance that maybe there wouldn't be so many bad results in the end.

HM: We have gotten a statement from TTC media relations saying you know they have concerns about potential misuse. And one of the notes — one of the lines in it — says senior management didn't become aware of the potential for misuse until very recently, hence the TTC’s recent attempts to find a solution. What do you make of that? That senior management seems to be suggesting that they had no idea about the way the installation might work?

TE: That goes beyond my real knowledge about the way the TTC has been organized around the thing. I mean you have to bear in mind that it has of course been a process over many, many years, over many instances, and many different people are involved. But like, of course, these things have been discussed thoroughly before, and so that was a surprise that suddenly it appeared that you know there has been no information before. Of course, there has been information.

HM: What was the point of the installation? What have you been trying to say with this design?

TE: In the in the beginning, we had in mind that there should be a relation between the individual ability to express oneself, which is much enlarged by technical means nowadays, and an effect on the entire community. That was one side, and the other side obviously was the interest of public space and people behaving in public space, and how these mechanisms between the individual expression and so collective let’s say control issue how that interrelates with new technologies like digital input.

HM: One of the solutions that I gave the TDC has suggested may be approving a list of messages. You said that part of your goal here is free expression. So what do you think of that idea?

TE: So what the TTC provided as a proposal was to use a whitelist, which is we define a number of terms which then could be entered by people waiting on the platform. But I think that, as anyone can understand, it’s almost the opposite. It's almost like an ironic distortion of the initial idea. I mean if we provide the text that people then are allowed to enter, that sounds more like North Korea than like Canada to me.

HM: So the TTC does say that the installation will open once the concerns have been addressed about potential hate speech. What solution would make you happy?

TE: The simplest solution is to really base our discussion on facts. So I think that in any case there should be an experimental phase, in which we find out are there issues? Of course, some people will try to enter whatever. I mean they are 14 year olds everywhere in the world who will, of course, try to enter certain things. But I think the question is how do we think we need to respond to it?

HM: Mr. Edler, thank you very much for talking with us. I appreciate it.

TE: Thank you very much, and have a good night.

HM: All right. You to. Bye bye.

JD: Tim Edler co-founded of the artist collective realities: united. We reached him in Berlin. If you're curious to see what the LightSpell art installation looks like, go over to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

Dateline: Gavle goat

JD: Dateline: Gavle, Sweden.

[Music: Dateline theme]

JD: The headline reads, "Arson-prone straw goat stands unscathed." The goat in question is 13 metres tall and it stands in Gavle central square. And, as regular listeners will be well aware, it's the latest in a series of goats that's gone up every year before Christmas. And, most years, the straw goat does, indeed, go up: it gets burned. And if it's not burned down, it's burgled or otherwise bothered. In fact, in the 50-odd years of recorded Gavle goat history, it has survived untouched only a handful of times. The roots of the tradition are a little unclear. Some say it's rooted in a debate about the goat's meaning. To some it's the goat that helps Santa deliver presents to Gavle’s boys and girls. To other it's the Norse Yule goat of Gavle's pagan past. For whatever reason, people seem to like setting it alight. Not this year though. Not according to the live Gavle goat-cam we've been watching as we go to air. It shows the goat lit up with spotlights, its straw golden, safe from flames. One Swedish news outlet has declared the Gavle goat's survival a Christmas miracle. Local official Maria Wallberg offers a simpler explanation. She says, quote, "We built a higher fence.

Back To Top »

Part two: German mayor stabbed, Encore: Irish bat family

German mayor stabbed

Guest: Andreas Hollstein

JD: Andreas Hollstein is the mayor of Altena — the west German town that has accepted a lot of asylum seekers. Last month, Mayor Hollstein was at a kebab shop. A man came up. The mayor remembers the man saying he didn't like Mr. Hollstein's position on refugees. And then the man stabbed the mayor in the neck. The attack comes at a time when immigration and refugee policies are polarizing issues in Germany. In September's federal election the far-right Alternative for Germany, or AfD party, made historic gains. We reached Andreas Hollstein in Altena.

HM: Mr. Hollstein, how has the wound on your neck healed?

ANDREAS HOLLSTEIN: Oh, it was no problem. It was only a question of one week, and then it was over. But there were memories, and there were fears for the future I have to carry in with me, and I have to fight with them I think a lot of weeks in the future.

HM: So the physical injury is doing well, but you're still feeling pretty emotionally taken aback by all of this?

AH: Yes, yes.

HM: So you were in a kebab shop when this happened. How did the whole thing unfold? What was going on when the attack happened?

AH: I went there and ordered. I was jolting with the younger of the shop owners and told him what I would like to have on my kebabs. Another guy joined the shop and prepared to order. And then he was looking always to me a little bit. After a while, he asked me are you the mayor of Altena? And then I said OK yes, I am. Can I help you in any case? And then he pulled a knife out of a bag he had and told me I will kill you because you left me thirsty and you bring in 200 more refugees to Altena.

HM: So he opposes your stance on refugees as far as you understand it?

AH: Yes, this might be like some do in Germany, as you know through the last elections, we have a number of 15 per cent who are in opposition of the refugee politics of the other parties.

HM: Tell me why you in particular might have been targeted? What was Altena’s policy on refugees?

AH: It was a little bit different — and still, it is a little bit different — compared with the others. We took, as other towns in Germany, refugees during the last years. And in the year 2014, we thought it would be more clever to call for more refugees because we need people for working here in Altena. We have 18 per cent of the steel wire industry in our little town. And in Germany, many people are working, so there less workless people with skills. And we were thinking we have empty flats, we have a lot of volunteers who are willing to help the refugees, and therefore, we created a win-win situation. Because on the one side, we saw the worst pictures coming from Greece at this time and said OK, that's not our kind of Europe. And second part, to be truthful, was that we hope that many of the refugees will stay here. And until today, it is like this because the families are very well-accepted in the town, and they accept the town. And therefore, in 2014, we tried to get more refugees on the pilot, but it was not accepted by the politics. Half a year later, when the so-called crisis of refugees came to Europe, this time they were willing to make a pilot. So we got 100 people more and we created this win-win situation.

HM: SO you took more refugees in Altena then then you were asked to do by the federal government. You mentioned the opposition to refugees, that includes the gains by the far-right AfD Party in your own country. What are your thoughts on the impact of that anti-immigrant sentiment in Germany?

AH: I think, first of all, we have to stress that there is no big majority against refugees. There are 75 per cent of normal people accepting them, as long as they accept the rules here inside. I think this is comparable with the Canadian way. But even there are 15 per cent or it might be 17 per cent in the population who would like to bring them out. It's not my kind of democracy, it's not my kind of politics, and therefore, we have to fight with political ways and arguments and in discussions.

HM: You mentioned earlier that you're still struggling a bit emotionally and psychologically with the aftermath of the attack. What effect do you think it's had on people in your community, especially those refugees?

AH: I saw that many of them were very sorry about the fact. And have even fear that behind these attacks there might be more. But there is not more, and I was often asked in the last weeks why you are going on arguing and discussing and giving interviews? I say OK because of the other picture of our small community and even of Europe or of the work policy. I think we have to be fair with each other. And refugees are coming mostly from war and from poor countries. So the people coming from war we have to help. And I think in the future, we must give more help to parts of Africa, where people are so poor that they go the dangerous way over the Mediterranean Sea.

HM: Have you increased your own security since the attack?

AH: I was asked if I would do this? To be truthful, I am thanking God that I'm still alive. And this, indeed, is my third life because some years ago, I got cancer and was successful by staying alive. For my work, I can't go through Altena’s streets with a policeman on my side. We have to have a contact with normal people and do our duty, and this is the reason why we are doing local politics and not in the parliament in Berlin for example. This is my way of life, and I won't change my way of life.

HM: Mr. Hollstein. I'm glad you are recovering, and it's been very good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

AH: Thank you.

HM: Bye bye.

AH: Bye bye.

JD: Andreas Hollstein is the mayor of Altena, Germany. That's where we reached him.

[Music: Space or something]

Health care op-ed

JD: If you were to ask American politicians what subject they agree on least, they would probably actually agree on that. That the subject is health care. The health-care debate has been raging in the U.S. for more than a century. Most recently, before President Trump, it was Obamacare. Now, well, it's still Obamacare, but it's also what form so-called "Trumpcare" would actually take. And it's not just a national debate, a serious divide exists on a state-by-state level as well. What all this back-and-forth in the political community frequently ignores is how the medical community feels about the situation. And that is why Dr. Rachel Pearson decided to make her position clear. Last week, she published a piece in the Texas Observer magazine. It's called, "As a Doctor, I'm Sick of All the Health Care Free Loaders". In that piece, she makes a simple suggestion to some of her patients. You might call it "a modest proposal". We asked Dr. Pearson to read her article for us. So here she is, for the record:

SOUNDCLIP

RACHEL PEARSON: I used to believe that everyone deserves health care. Now, I work in a clinic where the vast majority of my patients are on government-funded health care. I have learned that the stereotypes about these people are true. Most of my patients have never worked a day in their lives. They are extremely ungrateful for the care that hardworking taxpayers provide for them. Patients have punched me, bitten me, screamed at me, and even urinated on me.

RP: I often leave with vomit on my clothes. As a pediatrician, I provide these scowling little freeloaders with lifesaving therapies like vaccinations and antibiotics. Did they utter a word of gratitude? No, not unless their mom or dad tells them to. Nationwide, patients like mine represent almost half of the people who get insurance through Medicaid or CHIP — the Children's Health Plan. CHIP covers 8.9 million children nationwide. And Congress has so far failed to fund the program for next year. If stopgap funding isn't found soon, more than 450,000 kids in Texas alone will lose access to health care on February 1^st. apparently, the state plans to send a letter to these kids on December 22^nd, right before Christmas, announcing the cuts. Research has shown that people are more likely to die when they lose access to health care. Letting more American children die of preventable deaths will send a strong message to kids across the country. Pull your thumbs out of your mouths, get potty trained, and get a job.

JD: That was Dr. Rachel Pearson, reading her satirical piece, "As a Doctor, I'm Sick of All the Health Care Free Loaders." Dr. Pearson was in Seattle.

Encore: Irish bat family

JD: As the year comes to an end, we're looking back at some of our most memorable interviews. And that means revisiting our conversation with the Fleming family. If that name doesn't ring any bells, maybe we should play you this:

SOUNDCLIP

TADHG FLEMING: Catch him! Catch him, Derry! Derry, catch him! There’s a bat! Get the bat!

JD: That was the voice of Tadhg Fleming. Earlier this year, he took a video after a bat got into his family's kitchen in County Kerry, Ireland. As his father, Derry Fleming, tried to get of the creature with a towel, Tadhg Fleming shot it — filmed it — and added some narration. The video went viral and, amidst all the attention, we caught up with Tadhg and Derry Fleming. Here they are speaking with Carol.

CO: Tadgh, I want to start with you. Has anyone in your town of Ballymacelligott ever received this much attention?

JD: No one. I'd say I put Ballymacelligott on the map. I say it’ll be visited by everyone now to visit “Bat-Dad” But it's crazy how mad it's gotten.

CO: And you mentioned “Bat Dad” — that that's what you're calling your dad — Derry, your son's calling you Bat Dad. What are people calling you? Are you picking up that name — Bat Dad?

DERRY FLEMING: Yes, I sure am. And people are coming into the office while I work, they’re saying, “oh you know the guy Bat Man — is he around?

[LAUGHTER]

CO: And this is all because of this crazy video Tadgh, that you made and posted, and so describe how the bat got into your house?

TF: Oh my God, it was absolutely nuts. So my mom was doing the ironing in the kitchen and then she went out the back door, and she left the back door open, and the bat came straight in. And then she ran out to the hall and started looking through the window, and she left the bathroom there with myself and my dad. My immediate reaction was to take the phone out and start videoing it, and putting it up on Snapchat, and then I hid behind another door in the utility, and I just let my dad one-on-one with the bat, and it just was pure chaos. We’re only after getting a pup, and have him a week, and in the midst of the whole, my dad try to catch the bath, the pup did his business on the floor. My dad was in my football shorts and wolly socks up to his knees, and it was just absolutely crazy. You couldn't write it, like it was a comedy.

CO: Now Tadgh, you said that your first instinct was to pick up the phone and start filming. So, I mean, why wasn't your first instinct to pick up something and try to catch the bat along with your dad?

TF: It was just because I'm always videoing, I'm always doing snapchat, I’m always doing comedy sketches with my dad, and I seen him in my with the shorts, and with the socks up to his knees, and I was like — and he was he just got a tea towel, a small, little tea towel, that you knew he wasn't going to catch the bat with that. And I just said, “Oh my God, I've got to get this on.” And as I was videoing I was trying to help him out. I think I was hindering him more than anything else — he couldn't catch him. I was just trying to get him, to get him, and get him out of the house safely. And like my mom then looking in, it was just, it was hilarious, like the whole thing.

CO: Derry, do you think your son could have helped you? Did you need his help at any point?

[LAUGHTER]

DF: Let me tell you, my son was as as mom. He was petrified and that's why he ran behind the door.

CO: So he wasn't going to be much help to you anyway.

DF: No he wasn't. It was right. He was petrified really. He left all the work to his dad because of course, like I have to protect the family like — we thought it might be vampire bat.

CO: And you are the man of the house and you wereprotecting him.

DF: You know I have to protect my family at all costs — even risking my own life.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: Now Derry, your son's teasing you that you picked up a tea towel to start that.

DF: What i caught in the beginning it would be easier like, with a small one, because my first priority like was not harm the little creature. And it can fly, I think 40 miles per hour. So that's why the towel got a bit bigger so I went for the back towel.

CO: And that's how you finally caught it? Now OK, so you've both mentioned, besides you, and your son and the bat, there was another character here, which was your mom, and your wife. So, and, well we can hear in the video you say — what is it you're saying to your mom Tadgh?

TF: I was like, tell her stop looking through the window Maureen.

DF: We thought that she was frightening the bat by looking through the window.

TG: And she was putting my dad off as well.

CO: How was she putting your dad off?

TF: He was there and he was looking at her watching him trying to capture the bat. And I think he was under pressure because the bat was panicking around the place. So I went over to her and I said, “Would you back away from the window please?”

CO: Now Tadgh can I point out to you, that you were in behind another window, doing exactly the same thing that your mother was doing?

[LAUGHTER]

TF: I know. I’ve seen a load of comments saying, “Why was he giving out to the mom when he was worse than her?”

CO: Exactly. So what's your answer to that?

TF: Well, my answer is that I think that I was, I was, I was afraid of the bat alright, but I was trying to “man up” myself, but no it wasn't working. I was behind the door, and my mom was the door and my dad was the only fella who took on the bat and safely removed him.

CO: All right, so you mentioned one more character was introduce into this movie, which is your little puppy.

TF: Basil.

DF: Basil.

CO: Basil? Where did you get that name — is it after Fawlty Towers?

DF & SF: Yes. It was a comedy show.

CO: So Derry, what was the puppy doing through all of this?

DF: Well the puppy was — I actually had forgotten about the puppy at this stage like with the pandemonium. So, I think, first of all, you got a bit of a panic with all that was going on. So he decided to take a leak. So I didn't realize this until after I had the socks on. You know, I could wait.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: So in the middle of all this Basil was peeing on the floor?

DF: Yes.

CO: And Tadgh catches it. Tadgh you gave you gave blow-by-blow commentary of all this.

TF: I had I had a bird's eye view of what was going on. I could see my mom, I could see my dad, I could see the dog it was a great vantage point of everything that was going on. And thank God filmed it because we have it now forever. And the amount of people saying that they got a good laugh out of it. And it was an honest kind of fun, and a video that people can, like, sit back and just laugh, at it and just, kind of — it's like your typical Irish family — but I kind of captured the moment on video.

CO: Just a typical Irish family — and a bat.

[LAUGHING]

TF: And a bat, and a dog as well.

CO: Tadgh, Derry, it's great to speak with you. Thank you.

TF & DF: OK. Thank you very much.

CO: And good night to you both.

JD: That was Carol's conversation with Tadhg and Derry Fleming, who told us about that bat in their kitchen in September — one of our most memorable interviews of 2017.

[Music: Space Jam?]

Obama/Harry invitation

JD: The questions weren't too political or too controversial. That would be, of course, unbecoming of a member of the Royal family. The royal was Prince Harry. And the reason it could have gotten political was that His Royal Highness was interviewing Barack Obama — the first interview the former U.S. president has given since he left office in January. Prince Harry was guest hosting the BBC's “Today” program. But this interview was recorded in September at the Invictus Games in Toronto. And while Prince Harry kept his questions ginger, he did ask Mr. Obama about one of the more dramatic moments of his life.

SOUNDCLIP

PRINCE HARRY: Can I take you back to the 20^th of January, 2017, you sat in Marine One — the presidential helicopter — flying over Washington. You’ve sat through the inauguration with your game-face on. You weren’t giving much emotion away, as we all saw. What’s going through your mind?

BARACK OBAMA: You know the first thing that went through my mind was, sitting across from Michelle, how thankful I was that she had been my partner through that whole process. You know she did this largely in support of my decision to run. And for us to be able to come out of that intact, that was mixed with all the work that was still undone and the concerns about how the country moves forward. But you know, overall, there was a serenity there more than I would have expected.

PH: You managed to get people to use technology to take real action when you're elected all that time ago. Part of me was to ask how you managed that, but at the same time, the social media landscape has changed dramatically since then. Issues of trolling, extremism, fake news, and cyber bullying are major social issues. Is there more that you could have done as president to get ahead of some of these issues, do you think?

BA: One of the dangers of the Internet is that people can have entirely different realities. They can be just cocooned in information that reinforces their current biases. One of the things that I think I discovered, even back in 2007-2008, is a good way of fighting against that is making sure that online communities don't just stay online. I think the social media is a really powerful tool for people of common interests to convene and get to know each other and connect. But then it's important for them to get off line. Meet in a pub, meet at a place of worship, meet in a neighborhood, and get to know each other. Because the truth is that on the Internet, everything is simplified. It's also, by the way, harder to be as obnoxious and cruel in person as people can be anonymously on the Internet.

JD: That was former US President Barack Obama, in conversation with Prince Harry. The interview ran this morning on BBC Radio's “Today” program.

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December 27, 2017 episode transcript

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