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The AIH Transcript for December 20, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

HM: Trip of the tongue. Prime Minister Trudeau struggles to answer questions after his vacation on the Aga Khan's private island is down to violated Canada's ethics rules.

JD: He did the crime but the fines on her dime. A Russian law forces women who have been the victim of domestic violence to pay some of the penalties imposed on their abusers.

HM: Just plain wrong. A lawyer for two Somali deportees says that U.S. immigration officials abused her client's rights when they, and 90 others, were shackled and stuck on a flight for nearly two days.

JD: Brushed under the rug. City Hall says Rome's official Christmas tree is an example of refined simplicity. Critics say it is so short of needles that it now resembles a tool for cleaning toilet bowls.

HM: A marvel to behold. A game show contestant is left dumbstruck by a question about Steve Rogers’ superhero identity — even though he's wearing a t-shirt emblazoned with Captain America's emblem.

JD: And…Well pardon me for loving. Scientists record the courting calls of a fish called the Gulf Corvina and it is loud enough to deafen dolphins. As It Happens: The Wednesday edition. Radio that figures, here today, spawn tomorrow.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: Trudeau Ethics Aga Khan, Russia Domestic Violence, Rome X-Mas Tree

Trudeau Ethics Aga Khan

Guest: Duff Conacher

JD: It is a Christmas vacation that has come back to haunt Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Today, ethics commissioner Mary Dawson released a scathing report finding the PM in violation of the Conflict of Interest Act. It stems from trips that Justin Trudeau and his family took last year to the Aga Khan's private island in the Caribbean. The Aga Khan is a registered lobbyist to the prime minister's office. Ms. Dawson found that the Aga Khan quote “could reasonably be seen to have been given to influence Mr. Trudeau in his capacity as prime minister” end quote. The Prime Minister responded at a news conference this afternoon.

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PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I take full responsibility for it. We need to make sure that the office of the prime minister is without reproach and in the future, including on family friends and personal family trips, we will be proactively working with the Office of the commissioner to ensure that there is no conflict of interest, no appearance of conflict of interest.

ROSEMARY BARTON: With all due respect. How could it not have occurred to you that that might not have been okay?

JT: The fact is we work — sorry let me just try to reorder the thoughts. We worked with the lobby conflict of interest commissioner on a regular basis on a broad range of issues when the issues come up. On this issue of a family vacation with a personal friend, it wasn't considered that there would be an issue there.

JD: That was the prime minister responding to a question from CBC's Rosemary Barton in Ottawa this afternoon. Duff Conacher watched that press conference and he has read Mary Dawson’s report today. Mr. Conacher is the founder of the independent watchdog group Democracy Watch. We reached him in Ottawa.

HM: Mr. Conacher, what do you think of the Prime Minister's response?

DUFF CONACHER: Well, he's stumbling because he knows it's a violation of the rules, including his own code. There's a prime minister's ethics code that applies to him and cabinet ministers and cabinet staff and it says you can't be in even the appearance of a conflict of interest. There's no loopholes for friends, especially when you're doing something with a lobbyist or having a lobbyist do a favour or give you a gift. So he knows he violated his own code. When it comes to the ethics law that the Ethics Commissioner enforces, thankfully she didn't, as she has done most of the time in the last 10 years, she didn't create some loophole and let them off the hook. She did the right thing finally, and found him guilty of violating these very important laws.

HM: Now he has said he's taking full responsibility for his actions, moving forward that he will check these things in the future. Is that a good thing?

DC: It is a good thing, he said he'll maintain the standard of avoiding even the appearance of a conflict of interest in the future. The law doesn't require that — but it should. And the law has to be reviewed next year. It's called the Conflict of Interest Act and he should put that in the law and then he will be required to meet that standard, not just aspire to meet the standard. And there are no penalties for violating this these rules as well. So we need all of these things cleaned up when the law is reviewed next year.

HM: We heard Rosie Barton asking the Prime Minister — she wondered why it didn't occur to him before he even went on the trip. I'm wondering why wouldn't have occurred to him?

DC: It wouldn't have occurred to him for two reasons. One, there are huge loopholes in the law. It’s called the Conflict of Interest Act, it really should be called the ‘almost-impossible-to-be-in-a-conflict-of-interest-act.’ There's a loophole that allows gifts from friends. Thankfully the ethics commissioner in 2011 issued a guideline saying ‘I know this loophole exists, but if the friend is lobbying the federal government or has dealings with the federal government I'm not going to allow anyone to accept gifts they are prohibited because they cause a conflict of interest and it's called the Conflict of Interest Act.’ And also the ethics commissioner has let 95 per cent of people off the hook in the past 10 years. So the Liberals, I'm sure were thinking, ‘No worries, if you get accused of anything this person lets you off the hook and it has done so 95 per cent of the time.

HM: So are you suggesting that happened in the Harper government as well?

DC: Oh it did. She issued more than 200 secret rulings. We don't even know the facts of those situations and whether she was covering up wrongdoing. She has a confirmed record as a lapdog. That's why the Liberals have kept her around. She was supposed to be gone in July of 2016. They've kept her around for the last 18 months because they knew that she would cover up most of what they did and she has, she's overlooked violations on the fundraising events that Trudeau and his cabinet ministers have been done that are clear violations as well.

HM: That's a pretty strong allegation saying she's covered up for their potential wrongdoing.

DC: Well, sorry but you just look at the record and, you know, you're not allowed to accept a gift from a friend. You're not allowed to be involved in soliciting donations. The Trudeau cabinet ministers were at several events where lobbyists were there and were making donations and they were part of the invitation, the reason why people went to these events.

HM: The Prime Minister insisted today that the Aga Khan is a friend, even though Mary Dawson suggested he wasn't, at least in her interpretation. Is that not an odd thing to have to determine as an ethics commissioner, who qualifies as a friend?

DC: Yes, it is although, you should have a rule that you can't further the private interests of friends. So in that sense it has to be determined. But in terms of accepting gifts, if your friend is lobbying the federal government or dealing with the federal government it should be a clear prohibition in the law that you can't accept gifts from them because it's just too easy. And cabinet ministers have lots of friends who are lobbyists, lots of people and in parties become lobbyists if their party wins, because they feel like ‘hey now I've got this relationship with the cabinet minister prime minister and people will pay me to lobby them because they'll think I have an inside access and influence.’

HM: You know, the Prime Minister pointed to saying that he did not discuss any House of Commons business with the Aga Khan or with any of his representatives during these trips, and therefore felt that they were not wrong. Is there a way to compartmentalize what your role is from what you do in terms of the interactions you have with these powerful friends?

DC: No. The Lobbyist Code — there is ethics rules for lobbyists as well. And thankfully it sets a standard and just because you may not discuss something when the gift is being given doesn't mean that the conflict of interest is not there and doesn't continue. What's amazing is that the Lobbying Commissioner has watched all of this for the past year and as far as we know has not done anything to investigate the Aga Khan for violating that lobbyist ethics rule that says you can't do favours or give gifts to people that you're lobbying. Democracy Watch is issuing a letter to her today calling on her to investigate the Aga Khan for violating that lobbyist ethics rules.

HM: There's no punishment for a finding of wrongdoing or violation of these rules. Should there be, and if so, what?

DC: Yes, there should be a very high find at least half a year’s salary, if not a year’s salary. The Supreme Court of Canada said that if this ethics law is not upheld then we essentially don't have a democratic government. We need high penalties, we need the loopholes closed and we need stronger enforcement so that people start taking these standards seriously, because these are key standards that protect our democracy.

HM: This ruling comes at a busy time of year, a lot of people wrapped up in Christmas. I'm wondering whether you think this will resonate with Canadians, whether it's a big deal to them, and whether it will be when an election rolls around?

DC: Yes, well this is the season of gift giving. So it's a good message to be sending right now that gift giving is nice and it's a good thing to do during holiday time, but you don't want your politicians taking gifts from people who are lobbying them or who have dealings or who receive contracts from the government. The Aga Khan's gift to the prime minister — not something that is good — as gift giving Usually yes.

HM: Duff Conacher, thanks for sharing your views with us.

DC: Thank you very much. Happy holidays.

HM: To you too. Bye, bye.

DC: Bye.

JD: Duff Conacher is the founder of Democracy Watch. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: 50’s Rock]

Russia Domestic Violence

Guest: Marina Pisklakova-Parker

JD: Imagine a system wherein a woman is physically assaulted by her husband and instead of being given jail time he is handed a fine. Then when he refuses to pay that fine it falls to her, the victim, to find the cash. According to Marina Pisklakova-Parker that is exactly what is happening in Russia right now. Ms. Pisklakova-Parker is the head of the ANNA centre, a Moscow based group which supports victims of domestic abuse in Russia. We reached her today though, in Los Angeles.

HM: Ms. Pisklakova-Parker, maybe you could start by explaining for us why it is that some forms of domestic violence are only penalized with a fine in Russia?

MARINA PISKLAKOVA-PARKER: There is no definition of domestic violence in legislation in Russia. Basically when we talk about any kind of penalties it concerns only physical violence with medium severe injury or death, these are criminal offenses. And minor injuries, these are administered to be punished. There was an amendment that happened earlier this year.

HM: So when we talking about the kinds of domestic violence that are only given fines, what specifically would fall into that category, what kind of abuse?

MPP: It’s first time physical assault within one year. So if a husband would hit a wife for the first time within one year then it's administered to offence. It goes to a municipal judge and judges prefer to prescribe that it’s a fine, and then when it's just the financial punishment for a man they either pay the fine themselves or if they don't pay it then the court can enforce it against the wife, even if she's hiding from her abuser.

HM: So let's just clarify that. You're talking about a woman who has been abused, who is the victim of the abuse, and yet she ends up paying her husband's fine for that very same abuse?

MPP: Yes, exactly. Because it's a common property and if they are still legally married, even if she’s hiding in a shelter, she may be forced by court if he doesn't or avoids paying it. For her these are signs that she can't get help from the state, that the perpetrator has a right to do it.

HM: What kind of toll does it take on the woman when she has to pay a fine on behalf of the spouse who abused her?

MPP: I mean, you can only imagine how unfair it is and how it treats, not just financial discomfort, but really it's a message to a woman that she can seek help from the state. But it's also a message for a perpetrator that it's OK to do it.

HM: Does this also influence, do you think, women when it comes to their choice on whether to report their abusers to the authorities?

MPP: Yes, it does affect. Actually, we have a bit of an old level of reporting of domestic violence in Russia already in general. And of course decriminalization really affected that, sending women the message that it's useless to seek help. And for example statistics of national helpline say that over 70 per cent of women that call us never spoke about violence that they suffered to anyone before — over 80 per cent of them never called to the police. And over 60 per cent of those who called the police were not satisfied. So when we look at that this is the tip of the iceberg.

HM: You mentioned that Russian law doesn't recognize domestic violence. We spoke to an activist back in January about the attempts to decriminalize some forms of domestic violence in Russia. You know, why would a country in 2017 decriminalize domestic violence?

MPP: We have very active conservative groups, including some groups within the Orthodox Church, who say that a law against domestic violence will destroy families — that the family has to be preserved at any price. And I guess our society is getting ready to pay this price.

HM: There was, as I understand it, a case recently, a very high profile one, in which a woman had been telling police repeatedly about her husband abusing her. But she says she was not helped until he actually attempted to chop off her hands with an axe. What kind of effect is that having? I mean, what are people saying in Russia about that story?

MPP: Well, I've been working on this for over 25 years. And I thought that we were able to raise visibility of domestic violence in Russia. But apparently what we see is a high level of victim-blaming. Women are blamed for provoking violence. They are blamed for being not a good wife or not pleasing their husband. It's all old story. Every society goes through that at some point before they realize that we cannot preserve families where we have violence and abuse and if women leave then they are responsible for destroying the family. So it's a catch 22, women have to tolerate violence and then they are blamed for staying with thw perpetrators.

HM: So how are people reacting to the news that the women who have been victimized are having to pay the fines for their own abuse?

MPP: Well, I think it's not outrage — among activists, yes. I can tell you that for the last four years my organization has been involved in drafting anti-domestic violence law. And it's a good draft, but then after that my organization was listed as a foreign agent and it was a backlash, because a foreign agent means that my organization is mainstreaming something foreign to our culture. So dealing with domestic violence is being viewed as the foreign to our culture.

HM: Ms. Pisklakova-Parker, thank you for telling us what's going on there. We appreciate it.

MPP: Thank you.

HM: All right, bye.

JD: Marina Pisklakova-Parker is the director of the ANNA centre a Moscow based NGO for victims of domestic violence in Russia. We reached her today in Los Angeles. And we do have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Piano]

Rome X-Mas Tree

Guest: Alvise Armellini

JD: Anyone who visits the Piazza Venezia this holiday season is in for a memorable Christmas sight. There is an almost seven-storey high spruce tree right there in the centre of Rome, decorated with white lights and silver balls — and it's dead. But not only is it dead, it also looks dead. So Romans have taken to call it lo Spelacchio, which roughly translates to mangy or baldy. Alvise Armellini is a Roman, he's also a journalist and we reached him in Rome.

HM: Alvise, You have been to see lo Spelacchio. What exactly does the tree look like?

ALVISE ARMELLINI: Well, Spelacchio is very tall but threadbare and kind of a bit sad looking, and it's planted right in the middle of Rome in this big central square, which is a kind of giant roundabout. And it's quite funny because you do see that people — traffic stops to look at it. And if you're on a bus going around the square you overhear people sort of talking to each other and saying ‘well, you know, look how ugly that the tree is’ and you have people stopping for selfies. And it's become, you know, it's getting a lot of attention for all the wrong reasons. It’s got its own Twitter feed, a parody account on Twitter. The townhall says it's, you know, an example of refined simplicity but they’re kind of overstating the case.

HM: Do you know the Charlie Brown Christmas tree?

AA: Oh, no, no.

HM: OK. There's that cartoon with a famous tree that's a sad tree and people feel sorry for it and then they love it and it looks better.

AA: Yeah, I mean it's kind of getting a bit of that. I mean, there's a whole line of self-deprecating humour which are quite good at and I think the Spelacchio is getting that out in a lot of people. And that parody account is a good example of it.

HM: You say people are showing up and taking selfies with the tree. What are the things they’re actually saying about it?

AA: Well, I mean apart from just mocking it, I think the most serious note is that people are angry or disappointed at the fact that the mayor couldn't get it right for the second year in a row. People were unhappy with the Christmas tree last year as well. And in fact, at the time the mayor responded by adding a sort of extra round of decorations in the middle of December to make the tree look a bit nicer, but this year they're sticking to their guns and saying you know the tree’s fine as it is or perhaps it’s kind of beyond saving. But the most serious side of it is that it has come to light that the administration paid 50,000 euros to get the tree transported over from the Dolomites to Rome. And this is three times as much as the price that was paid last year. And part of it is due to the fact that they just planned it badly. So they only organized the tender for this in the middle of November. So there wasn't really enough time to get a sort of competitive tender going.

HM: But the tree itself, presumably it started off as a healthy living tree. How did it get to be so mangy looking?

AA: It's what everybody is asking. I mean, the guys in the Dolomites have released pictures of the tree in its original setting looking quite strong and full-bodied and healthy. And I think the suspicion is that it got damaged during the transportation period. Perhaps it wasn't covered up properly, perhaps it was cut in the wrong way. But the fact is that, more or less as soon, as it arrived in Rome it really did look threadbare. And I think on the first day that it was put up in the central piazza a journalist for la Repubblica, which is a liberal newspaper gave it its name, Spelacchio on Twitter and that name kind of stuck.

HM: I heard there's other things people are calling it too. What kind of names have you heard?

AA: Well, I think Spelacchio is the most common one, but it's being compared to a two to a toilet brush. You could say that it does kind of remind you slightly of it. But there's that and then there's a sort of question of hurt civic pride because others have a better Christmas tree. The Pope right outside St Peter’s Basilica has a fine looking Christmas tree. The people in Milan, which is the other big city in Italy with which there’s a kind of rivalry with Rome have lots of trees and they all look very good. And on top of that they've been privately sponsored, so it didn't cost anything to the taxpayer. While in Rome it's it's looking a bit of a mess. And it reminds people that the city is in a sorry state. You know, the Christmas tree isn't the biggest problem of the city.

HM: Isn't it fair to say that Romans do like to complain a lot, that maybe they're playing this up a little bit?

AA: Yeah absolutely, I mean, as I said there’s a sort of self-deprecating spirit to the city and Romans who like to joke about themselves. But nevertheless, it just kind of to do the to the sense of gloom and unhappiness about the state of the city. And I think even if Romans like to moan they would have been much happier with a good Christmas tree this year, it would have provided some welcome cheer.

HM: There are rumors Spelacchio is going to have a funeral on December 25th. Is that true?

AA: I think it might be kind of banter, social media banter. I'm not sure it's going to happen but I did see there was a funeral parlour firm that is using Spelacchio to advertise its products on Facebook.

HM: Oh dear. Well, there's always next year. I hope you get a better tree then.

[LAUGHTER]

AA: Let's hope so I absolutely.

HM: Thanks Alvise.

AA: Thank you.

HM: Bye, bye.

AA: Bye.

JD: Alvise Armellini is a Roman journalist. We reached him in the Eternal City. And if you'd like to see a photograph of Spelacchio check out our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Upbeat Guitar Strums]

Mexican Fish Mating

JD: Have you ever had the misfortune of being kept up all night by a pair of lovers labouring upstairs. Well you're lucky those lovers were not Gulf corvine. Golf corvina are fish and it has just been confirmed that the sound of them mating is the loudest sound any fish can make. University of San Diego scientist Timothy Rowell and his colleague took special recording gear to eavesdrop on Gulf corvina as they gathered to spawn in the Gulf of Mexico. And what they collected were mating calls loud enough to deafen dolphins or other nearby predators. Mr. Rowell described a single corvina love call as being kind of like quote “a really loud machine gun” whereas quote “the collective chorus sounds like a crowd cheering at a stadium or perhaps a really loud beehive” unquote. The fish get together once a year to mate. So you be the judge. Here is the sound of one Gulf corvina getting ready to mate.

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Gulf corvina mating sound

JD: And here's what a whole lot of Gulf corvina loving sounds like.

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Multiple Gulf corvine mating sounds

JD: That was the sound of a group of Mexican Gulf corvina mating — the loudest fish sound around. Also our sound of the day.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Somali Deportation, Doug Musson Obit

Somali Deportation

Guest: Kim Hunter

JD: A Florida judge halted the deportation of 92 Somalis from the United States this week. They were ordered deported to Somalia earlier this month but they never made it there. Instead they ended up spending nearly two days on board their plane when it was halted during a connection in Senegal. They were flown back to the United States. After that ordeal, lawyers filed a lawsuit alleging that the deportees were subject to quote “inhumane conditions and egregious abuse.” Now the judge has halted their deportation for at least two weeks. Kim Hunter is a lawyer representing two of the deportees. We reached her in St. Paul, Minnesota.

HM: Ms. Hunter this judge's order came through late last night. How did your clients react when they heard this news?

KIM HUNTER: I think my clients are a little bit of a state of shock. Several members of their group had already been shackled and transferred to the Miami airport. So while they’re, I think, relieved obviously it's not be put on another plane to Somalia. There's also a sense of uncertainty since this is at the moment just a temporary reprieve.

HM: What prompted the judge to halt the deportation of these 92 Somali deportees?

KH: I mean, the immediate request was for time to allow these individuals to file what are called motions to reopen. But practically speaking, I think even though the judge's ruling on those sort of mundane issue of jurisdiction, I think the fact that all the reports about what happened on the previous flight were so dreadful that I think that probably also couldn't help but affect his decision.

HM: Tell us a bit about the conditions under which the deportation took place?

KH: Really, I mean, it's completely appalling. Historically when deportees are taken to many places, if it's just a few at a time they are just escorted by an ICE officer and sent to that country. In this case because they were on a chartered ICE air, as they say flight, they were shackled — hands, feet and wrist shackled, additionally to waist restraints. They were in that position for the entire nearly 48 hours that they were onboard the flight. There was a lack of food, water, lack of medication. They got no sleep, I mean, they were in an airline seat for about almost two days in total.

HM: ICE has denied the allegations of mistreatment. They point to one of the accusations in the suit regarding washrooms, saying that they were functioning fine. What are you alleging about that situation?

KH: Yeah, we're alleging that. Well, first of all, restroom access was being limited as punishment. But furthermore, they were not serviced on the ground in Senegal and so they were basically overflowing and became completely unusable on the flight back to the states.

HM: What did that mean in the flight, what was happening?

KH: I mean, obviously a lot of the men were in distress, there were, you know, some people who were definitely physically injured by ICE officers on the plane. By the time essentially the decision was made or announced to them at their return to the U.S., there were actually several men onboard who protested, basically because they knew that returning to the U.S. would mean being returning to incredibly restrictive conditions of confinement. And at that point, after so much such exhaustion and such mistreatment, they were — some of them are at a stage where they would have rather taken their chances in Somalia so to speak.

HM: You say several of them were injured by ICE officers, in what way?

KH: There were instances of ICE putting a sort of a sleeper hold on one individual there who was speaking out. Allegations related to being sort of, you know, slapped and punched in the face. Several individuals that are still in a lot of pain just from being shackled that long that are still experiencing symptoms from that and those symptoms have not been well treated in these detention centres.

HM: You're alleging abuse took place while these — hits they were taking were while they were still shackled.

KH: Yes, absolutely.

HM: Why were they shackled in the first place? You said if it was a couple of deportees that doesn't happen. Was it the number of people or were there some particular concerns?

KH: Again, I think, you know, ICE would say that well because there were there were some — and no doubt there were some who have criminal records on that plane. They were shackling for the safety of the entire group. I think that it's, like so many things about our immigration system, it was essentially designed to be punitive and it's sort of because they could.

HM: So beyond those people you mentioned who had criminal records, why were the others being deported by the U.S.? Some of them, as I understand it, had lived in the States for quite some time.

KH: Yes, so for my two clients, for example, they both entered the U.S. between 15 and 20 years ago, and they made asylum claims that had been denied. They were deporting them because they had old removal orders or deportation orders. They both have been reporting and regularly, one had actually gotten a letter notifying him that he would —they were terminating his reporting, meaning he should indicating that he was going to be deported. The other just went to a regular check in, as did many of these men, and was shocked to be taken into custody, because up until that point they had largely been assured that because they had no criminal record ICE was not particularly interested in deporting them.

HM: Can you tell us a bit about these two men, the lives they been leading in the United States?

KH: Absolutely. Abdoulmalik Ibrahim is a father of four. He is the primary provider for his family. After losing his asylum case he largely put himself through school to get an associate's degree and was actually working as a cardiovascular technician at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. Abdihakim Mohamed, also numerous family members in the United States, not married however, no children, but was working as a personal care attendant. So he had built a long-term working relationship with someone who is now also kind of suffering in his absence.

KM: The U.S. has been reluctant in recent years to deport people to Somalia, partly because of al Shabaab continuing to gain control in the conflict with al Shabaab, though this year what 521 Somalis were deported from the U.S. Why is that happening? Have they said there's any change in the safety issues back in Somalia?

KH: No, that's the intriguing part. So essentially, until this spring Somalia was on the list of 20 so-called recalcitrant countries, who were reluctant to issue travel documents or permission for deportees to re-enter. And the Trump administration put a great deal of pressure upon them to get them off that list and to start issuing travel documents. And so that is what has followed, and the thing that is most shocking to me, frankly, as I've been doing this for about 20 years, and I certainly cannot recall a time where the United States was so interested and so active in sending deportees back to a place where we are also simultaneously at war.

HM: This freeze on deportations only lasts two weeks. Where are your clients now? What are they feeling about their prospects?

KH: Well, they're back in Miami and they are court ordered to remain there. I think Mr. Ibrahim probably said it best and that he's starting to lose faith in the American system, which he used to have a lot of faith in. I am cautiously more optimistic for these two gentlemen because we recently had another case that was reopened on similar facts to theirs. But it's incredibly stressful and distressing to have them, you know, so far away and to be sort of at the mercy of, you know, a somewhat broken system.

HM: Ms. Hunter, I appreciate very much you telling us about all of this.

KH: Thank you.

JD: Kim Hunter is a lawyer representing two Somali men among a group of 92 people whose deportation from the United States has now been put on hold. We reached Ms. Hunter in St. Paul, Minnesota. We have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Lo-fi Hip Hop]

Weinstein Assistant

JD: Yesterday, Zelda Perkins broke her silence about Harvey Weinstein in an interview with the BBC. Ms. Perkins worked as an assistant at Miramax films in the 1990s. She resigned after a colleague accused Mr. Weinstein of attempted rape — an allegation he has denied. Ms. Perkins says that she signed a non-disclosure agreement in 1998 and received 168,000 bucks as part of a settlement that was supposed to prevent her from telling anyone about the alleged assault. During her interview with BBC Newsnight Ms. Perkins described Mr. Weinstein as quote “a master manipulator.” Here's part of her conversation with Emily Maitlis.

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ZELDA PERKINS: Everybody now says why did everyone go to his hotel room, it wasn't as simple as that. You know, everybody went to his hotel. This is where he did business, it wasn’t in his bedroom, it was in his suite. You know, you had top agents, top movie stars, male and female, coming in hourly for meetings — this was his place of business. So it wasn't sort of this spurious weird thing that you had to go up to his room. However, he had a lot of meetings with actresses and he clearly had girlfriends. You know, he had regular female visitors who were actresses, sometimes aspiring actresses, well-known actresses — and they clearly had a fairly intimate personal relationship with him. But as an assistant that's not really something that you're involved with.

EMILY MAITLIS: Did you assume that those relationships were consensual? Did they seem just to be part of that world?

ZP: Well, yes. I presume they were consensual but there were obviously some women who were reluctant to come. You know when you’d ring up to try to make a meeting they’d always come up with excuses and Harvey would get very angry and threatening and would threaten you personally that you had to make sure that this meeting happened. With Harvey there was no such word as ‘no.’ And I think that's really the crux of the matter. I did warn people that he had a habit of behaving inappropriately, but that they were safe because I had always been safe. And I genuinely never was physically threatened by him, emotionally and psychologically, constantly. When I interviewed people I said ‘I'm afraid he's a pain. He will he will behave appropriately. You just tell him where to go. You're tough with him. Nothing will happen.’ But I was I was wrong.

JD: That was Zelda Perkins speaking with the BBC's Emily Maitlis on the program Newsnight yesterday. Harvey Weinstein's lawyer threatened legal action and responded with a statement saying quote “Mr. Weinstein categorically denies engaging in any non-consensual conduct or alleged threatening behaviour” unquote.

[Music: Ambient Bass]

Doug Musson Obit

Guest: Scott Musson

JD: For more than 30 years Doug Musson would climb his ladder and adorn his Burlington, Ontario house with elaborate displays of Christmas lights. The house became famous, neighbours, friends, people from around the city would come by to check it out. Now that community is in mourning. On Monday evening Mr. Musson died after falling from his ladder. He was 82 years old. Since news of Mr. Musson’s death broke people have been gathering at the family home to express their condolences and their gratitude. Scott Musson is Doug's son. We reached him in Burlington.

HM: Mr. Musson, first of all, I'm very sorry about the loss of your dad.

SCOTT MUSSON: Thank you.

HM: What exactly happened to him on Monday?

SM: On Monday, as you know, things were melting and there was a drip coming down in our backyard on the pathway that people walk on to go to the backyard to see the light display in the back. So he went up and was looking around there and I went down below looking at the drip trying to figure out where the drip was coming from. As I'm standing there, the next thing I knew was I heard a crash and then I looked to my right and he was about two feet from me lying on the ground. He said that he was getting a little bit numb and then he started telling me it was difficulty with his breathing. And at that point I realized that this is pretty serious. And about that time the ambulance arrived. They transported him to Joe Brant Hospital in Burlington and then came and told us that there was nothing that they could do that he was damaged too.

HM: Oh, dear. Your father obviously loved Christmas very much. He'd been decorating his house for a very long time two years. How did that get started?

SM: Initially we’re from Calgary and he worked for a company in Calgary that somehow they gave him a couple of strings of lights. He put this couple of strings of lights on and he enjoyed putting the lights up on the House. We always tried to make it look a little better than what other people had. You know, just so we had a bit of a display. He then got transferred from Calgary to Burlington. So we started putting in a few strings on — outlined the house. And then we bought some reindeer, some of those wireframe reindeer, and this is when they first came out nobody else had them. So we put them on the roof and all of a sudden everybody's stopping by to see these reindeer and we thought ‘wow it looks like people around here really like Christmas lights.’ So from that point on we started adding and adding and after 30 years of adding this is where we're at right now.

HM: Do you have any idea how many lights are on the house?

SM: You know, tens of thousands, could be hundreds of thousands. We haven't got a clue because so many of the lights are embedded in the rope lighting that we use for all of our figures. And, you know, every foot of that has 12 little lights in it. So it's almost impossible to tell.

HM: Wow. Now you design your own figures too right? Like these are original.

SM: They are. Dad and I would come up with the idea, we would draw it on paper then we use an overhead projector or a projector to project it on the wall where we have some great big pieces of paper. We would draw it out there and we'd go and buy steel just from a steel factory. And then Dad would bend it and then he would cut everything and weld it into the shape of the figure, and then it was my job to put the lights on it. And then we’d get the rope lighting, I would attach the rope lighting and then attach the controllers to animate the figures and then he would make the stand. And that's basically how we made these figures.

HM: Wow, it sounds pretty complex. How long does it take every year to put all this up?

SM: It takes about six weeks from start to finish.

HM: That's a long time. What's it look like right now?

SM: It looks great — it’s the best year ever. You know, we have a hippopotamus this year that jumps out of a present. We have a baby dinosaur that hatches out of an egg with a mother watching over. Nativity scene, we have a dragon that brings fire and melts the snowman and it's all done by lights and animation. We're big on lights.

HM: Why did this tradition mean so much to your dad?

SM: He liked to make people happy and not just at Christmas time but all year long. You know, by putting the Christmas lights out he could go outside and often he wouldn't tell people who he was. He would just like to wander around and listen to people's comments. That's the whole reason we did this. It was kind of like our gift to the community.

HM: And you had a lot of people come around every year too, right?

SM: Tens of thousands. You know, right now I can't believe the people — I think because there's a bit of publicity. You know, people are coming to share their condolences. Normally at this time I don't even turn them on till five o'clock and there's already people lined up along the street to see them.

HM: What kind of support are you getting now with the loss of your dad from people around Burlington?

SM: Oh, a lot. You know, people are dropping off cards, some with money in them. People are, you know, putting flowers in front of the display. Someone put a candle out last night that they lit. We've had somebody start a GoFundMe page. And these are people I don't even know. We're overwhelmed.

HM: It's always really difficult, the first Christmas or first major holiday, I guess, of any kind after you've lost a loved one. What are your plans for Christmas with your family this year?

SM: We decided that we would postpone the funeral till after Christmas, so it's going to be next Thursday. And we would try to have a decent Christmas — and dad would want that.

HM: So, I don't think dad would want us all sitting around moping and mourning, even though that's pretty hard not to do. He would want us to go ahead with our plans. So we are not altering anything.

SM: You know, at 82 he sounded like before the accident he was still going really strong.

SM: He was very strong, he ran a business. He drove to Atlanta two months ago to attend a trade conference. He was not your typical 82-year-old and my mom who's 80, you'd never know it. She’s the backbone of the family and she's the one holding us all together.

HM: So he probably would have continued this tradition for some time right?

SM: He would've continued it till he died. You know, I had taken over a lot of the reins already. You know, he would help with as much as he could, but my plan is I would like to do it till I'm to the point where I can't do it. I'm telling people after all the affection that's been shown to us by the community, it would be very tough not to do it next year and to disappoint everybody.

HM: Well, Mr. Musson thank you for taking the time in the midst of all of this to talk with us tonight. My best to your family.

SM:Thank you very much I appreciate it.

HM: OK. Bye, bye.

SM: Bye, bye.

JD: That was Scott Musson in Burlington, Ontario. His father Doug, who was known for his Christmas light display, died on Monday. He was 82 years old.

[Music: Sombre Violin]

Avengers Game Show

JD: The program was a Spanish game show called Ahora Caigo — that translates to Now I Fall. Let me set the scene for this particular moment. The host asked a contestant named Alberto who is Steve Rogers in the Avengers.

SOUNDCLIP

GAME SHOW HOST: Qué es Steve Rogers en Los Vengadores?

JD: Now the options for Alberto are Doctor, senor o capitan. The host Arturo Valls is wearing a dark blue suit. Alberto, the contestant is wearing stylish glasses, a hopeful expression and a T-shirt he's either forgotten about or does not understand — because here is Alberto's answer.

SOUNDCLIP

ALBERTO: Doctor?

JD: That's right. The contestant says Steve Rogers from the Avengers is or something again that's Alberto the guy the stylish glasses, the hopeful expression, for another couple of seconds anyway, and that T-shirt I mentioned. It's a gray T-shirt with a logo on it.

SOUNDCLIP

ALBERTO REALIZING HE GOT THE ANSWER WRONG. HOST POINTS OUT HIS CAPTAIN AMERICA SHIRT

JD: OK, so a couple of things here. First, the answer is Capitán, of course, in the Avengers Steve Rogers is Capitán America. Second que fuerte means “oh, wow” And the reason the host wearing the dark blue suit is saying ‘que fuerte’ is because of the contestant wearing the stylish glasses, the crestfallen expression now, and the gray T-shirt with the logo on it. The logo of a famous comic book character — the logo of Capitán America. So to sum up a guy went on a game show wearing the answer to one of the questions on his shirt — and he did not get that answer. Which I guess really, to be honest, to be fair is not that surprising. You don't go on a game show to get something off your chest.

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Part 3: Encore: As It Happened: Aliens Episode

Encore: As It Happened: Aliens Episode

JD: During this holiday season we are bringing you some of the very best stories we have ever aired on this program. We are digging into the As It Happens archives and dusting off some of the most memorable stories from our past. And now here's tonight's encore presentation of As It Happened: The Archive edition.

[Music: Retro Theme]

JD: Tonight's theme: Aliens. What on earth happened to Travis Walton when he went missing for five days? According to him he left it.

SOUNDCLIP

TRAVIS WALTON: I became conscious inside the craft and I looked around and I saw alien beings and I just panicked.

JD: Meet the British Lord who believed that a sitting U.S. president kept his interstellar summit a secret.

SOUNDCLIP

LORD CLANCARTY: I gather that Eisenhower decided that back in 1954 it would cause panic.

JD: And…If there is any intelligent life out there we like to think it's tuned in to the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

JILL TARTER: We look for signals that show up at only one channel on the radio dial. As It Happened: The Archive Edition. Terrestrial radio that's out of this world.

[Music: Retro Theme]

JD: Statistically speaking, given the hundreds-of-billions of planets in our galaxy alone, chances are that we are not alone in the universe. And if there is scant proof to date — by which I mean none — of the existence of extra-terrestrials, there is no shortage of stories circulating here on Earth of close encounters of the third kind. As It Happens has explored these stories with an equivocal earnestness over the years. Like the one that began early one November morning in 1975. As a seven man logging crew returned home from working in Sitgreaves National Park near Snowflake, Arizona. Now what exactly happened and what they witnessed from their truck is uncertain. But at some point one of the men, 22-year-old Travis Walton, disappeared — only to re-emerge five days later at a nearby gas station. He claimed he had been abducted by aliens. As It Happens host Barbara Frum spoke of Mr. Walton later that month. Here's part of that interview.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: Mr. Walton, how are you?

TRAVIS WALTON: I'm feeling a lot better.

BF: Where were you?

TW: I don't know.

BF: Can you tell us anything of what happened?

TW: I could see out of this one craft — and I could see stars all around, but no planet or sun or anything like that. So at some distance from this solar system.

BF: When you got off the truck to see the object that the other people on the truck saw, do you remember what you thought when you were running toward it?

TW: I just wanted to get a closer look. I didn't have any idea of what would happen.

BF: Did you hear the truck drive off without you?

TW: No. I was unconscious at that time.

BF: What made you unconscious?

TW: I didn't see any blue ray like they described. I just blacked out. I was just struck. And shocked, sort of.

BF: Now what's the next thing you know for sure?

TW: I became conscious inside the craft. And I believed I was in the hospital. I was in a lot of pain. And as I became more conscious, I looked around and I saw alien beings and I just panicked.

BF: How'd they look?

TW: They looked almost human. They were very white — on their skin, and hairless. And in reddish-brown coveralls.

BF: What do you mean 'hairless'?

TW: No hair on the head, no eyebrows, no eyelashes.

BF: No moustaches?

TW: No.

BF: How did they treat you?

TW: I reacted violently, because of the shock and the pain I was in. But looking back on it now, I don't believe they had any harmful intentions.

BF: What did they feed you?

TW: I don't recall ever being fed. I was only conscious for two or three hours out of the five-and-a-half days. Hypnosis has been trying to see if there's any blocked memory there, or if perhaps I was just totally unconscious for that time. But there was a mark on my arm that suggested intravenous feeding.

BF: How much weight did you lose in the five days?

TW: Ten or twelve pounds.

BF: So conceivably you were just wandering around not eating at all.

TW: I've regained all of about three pounds of that weight I've lost.

BF: Anyone in Snowflake, Arizona, believing you?

TW: Acceptance is growing — especially since the final word of the experts that I was examined by after my return. A lot of negative publicity went out immediately, because since I was under testing and not available for any kind of an interview or comment, they just seized upon a lot of speculation and a lot of negative things came out. But since then, acceptance has been growing tremendously.

BF: Are you going to write a book?

TW: It's been suggested to me. There's so much to tell. It'd probably be a good idea.

BF: Mr. Walton thanks for talking to us. Bye.

JD: Barbara Frum speaking with Travis Walton on November 24^th, 1975.

[Music: Somber Tones]

California Hypnotherapist

Guest: Yvonne Smith

Mr. Walton did indeed write a book the Walton experience. It was the basis for what has become a cult sci-fi film called Fire In The Sky, released in 1993. Incidentally that same year, As It Happens host Michael Enright spoke with a California hypnotherapist providing a unique service. Here is the late former As It Happens Al Maitland to provide the introduction.

SOUNDCLIP

AL MAITLAND: Consider California where there's a support group for everyone — for women who love too much, for men who don't love enough, for chocolate lovers, for animal haters. Just when you think the support group movement has run out of things to support they come up with another one. Now this one, this one is for people who have been abducted by space aliens. Yvonne Smith, a certified hypnotherapist is the group's founder and leader. She's in La Crescenta, California.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Ms. Smith, is what made you decide to create a support group for people who've been abducted by aliens?

YVONNE SMITH: I found that was a great need for people to get together and talk about comfortably what they feel has happened to them. It's very difficult with this subject, because it's so controversial, to just talk to anybody about it. They fear ridicule. These people have families and careers they feel they need to protect. So I provide that safe haven for them.

ME: What kind of people come to your group, who are they?

YS: From all different backgrounds. I have many professional people in my clientele. People that you would do business with you, maybe your next door neighbour, somebody you work with. You'd be very surprised the caliber of people that come to me with this.

ME: Do any of the experiences — are any of them the same or do they run to particular pattern? Could you give us an idea of the kind of typical sort of abduction scenario?

YS: A typical scenario is someone who may be driving down a highway and saw some kind of a craft in the sky. They know it's not any type of a conventional aircraft. They begin staring at it, maybe it could be a very bright light and they find that maybe an hour to two hours have elapsed and they can't account for that missing time.

ME: Do they not feel grateful at the very fact that they're alive, and that they’ve survived the experience?

YS: Oh, yes. And it's terrifying because they don't know when that's going to happen again, because usually it's more than once.

ME: Oh, I didn't realize that, they get picked up on more than one occasion?

YS: It usually starts in childhood and many times it runs in families — generational. This is what we're finding out in the research, which is quite compelling.

ME: Why would that be do you think?

YS: We feel that this is only speculation, of course, we don't have any definite answers, but they could be performing some kind of genetic experimentation with us. Some kind breeding program and I know that sounds quite incredible but because of the cases that we get time after time, so similar this is what we feel.

ME: Do you have any, Ms. Smith, to talk about, because I know this has been common, a number of people have mentioned it in reporting this — that they feel that the abductors have implanted something, a radio transmitter or something like that in their nose or something?

YS: Right. That's a very typical scenario of something being put up into their nasal cavity. I have many reports, in my cases ,of something being inserted into the scalp or head area, in the ears. Until we have retrieved one of these, whatever they are, implants, and study it we really don't know at this point. Because of the similarities, the correlation in what people are reporting, it sounds as if this is what may be happening.

JD: Former As It Happens host, Michael Enright, in conversation with hypnotherapist Yvonne Smith in 1993.

Trevor The Alien

Guest: Jonathan May

JD: Now while California might seem like a likely place to spot an extraterrestrial — especially around Hollywood — you might be less prepared for such an encounter on the south coast of Newfoundland. Unless you're Jonathan May. Mr. May traveled a very long way from his home in Australia to the island’s Burin Peninsula, and he found it to be the perfect locale to make otherworldly contact. Sure enough ever since he showed up in town earlier this year there has been a surge of sightings — of one alien in particular named Trevor, who would be right at home in Hollywood. Mr. May spoke with As It Happens host Carol Off Back in May.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Jonathan why did you go to Mary's town Newfoundland in the first place.

JONATHAN MAY: Originally he was coming to do photography project on the I googled the world's fogy his place in Argentia came up and I started researching Newfoundland but I'd never even heard of it before. To be honest but since I've come over to Burin Peninsula it's been a little bit less foggy. I think there are foggier places up in St. Lawrence but I've been stuck in Marystown for about 12 days shooting the project of Trevor.

CO: Okay now Trevor, this is your project that you have taken on since you have come to where you thought was the foggiest place in the world. What is the film about?

JM: The film is about an alien called Trevor who’s come from a planet called Elicuranus. And he originally was coming to document human behaviour and society, but gets a little bit sidetracked in Marystown and caught up and stays here a little bit longer than expected. And he watches Baywatch at the Burin cinema and now thinks he wants to be an actor like The Hoff — David Hasselhoff — and has a big audition in St. John's the acting studio in a couple of days. So he's heading down there.

CO: What does Trevor look like?

JM: Trevor looks like your average alien, he's quite lanky. There's a few posts on Facebook saying that he looks like a white walker from “Game of Thrones.” He's very pale few other people are saying that he spent too long in Burin Peninsula because he’s ghostly white.

CO: And he's from the planet of Elicuranus?

JM: Elicuranus.

CO: What do you think it is about Newfoundland that inspired this film?

JM: It's quite remote and isolated. I think it kind of reminds me of Tasmania back home in Australia. Yeah, there's not many people around and it's quite remote. And you know every time I speak someone inside you know they talk about the alien; everyone said there's a few here already.

CO: Newfoundlanders would say he could probably fit in quite well.

JM: Exactly.

CO: And what's the name of your Trevor alien film.

JM: Trevor.

CO: Okay, okay we'll look for it. It’s good to talk you. Thanks Jonathan.

JM: Thanks so much, take care.

JD: That was Jonathan may speaking with Carol in May of this year.

Alien Pets

Guest: Brad Steiger

JD: Now according to one Brad Steiger, a guest on As It Happens back in 1983, one need not journey far from home to make contact with extra-terrestrials. In fact, one need not leave the house at all. Here is Mr. Steiger speaking with former host Elizabeth Gray.

SOUNDCLIP

ELIZABETH GRAY: Mr. Steiger, How do you explain this theory of yours?

BRAD STEIGER: Basically, the theory I am proposing has been presented, of course, in over 20 years of research and five current books, and that has to do with the fact that indeed alien life forms can be visiting our planet, and I think have been doing so for generations. And it may be able to be assumed and absorbed into other lifeforms that already exist on this planet. And that can even extend to our household pets. I think that we see with certain pets, as there are with certain individuals, a different kinds of awareness, some pets seem to be very instrumental in healing. I know many doctors right now are using dogs and cats and healing both physical as well as mental therapy.

EG: How do they do that?

BS: The very presence of the animals, for one, gives the person something on which to focus, something for which to care, but there's something other very important a friend of mine who was formerly with NASA has been investigating, that actually the stroking of, especially a small animals fur, creates negative ions around the individual, which does encourage healing. Also, a small animal, like a Chihuahua or let's say a very productively moving cat rather than one that lazes about, also creates negative ions in your home. If you've got a puppy or an active cat moving around you're feeling better than someone who would not have that.

EG: Are you suggesting then that these alien presences are more likely to be in very small animals?

BS: They can be large animals, as well of course, especially the more active animals. An active large dog would do the same.

EG: And if there is an alien presence, say in my dog, did it arrive in that form or did arrive first in some other form?

BS: This is what I've been researching. I think that it is both, you know, check both of the above. It seems as though it is possible from time to time that there are like body-less intelligences, that may for a time enter an animal, interact whether you want to call these spirit forms or outer space forms. Actually I use the term multi-dimensional kind of intelligences. For some that means outer space, that means extra-terrestrial. I don't argue with that if that's what that person feels. So yes, I think your pet could be housing a multi-dimensional intelligence or perhaps this is something that through the pet’s own evolution has been a progressive thing as it has developed.

EG: And it could leave him, could it?

BS: It could leave yes. It could be with you for a time. There could be a presence, an entity, a multidimensional intelligence that could inhabit the body of your animal for a time because of some particular kind of instructive matter that you needed to receive or some particular learning experience that you had to encounter, and this pet may have been there to assist you in that type of learning and growth experience.

JD: Former As It Happens host Elizabeth Gray speaking with Brad Steiger on April 26^th of 1983.

Eisenhower Aliens

Guest: William Francis Brinsley Le Poer Trench, 8th Earl of Clancarty

JD: While Mr. Steiger was convinced that aliens present themselves to us as pets and other As It Happens guest was equally certain that at least on one occasion they presented themselves to a president. Once again, here is Al Maitland followed by Elizabeth Gray with the story.

SOUNDCLIP

AL MAITLAND: A British lord claims to have secret information that aliens from outer space met American President Dwight Eisenhower in 1954. Apparently, the president was golfing at the time in Palm Springs, California when he was urgently summoned to nearby Edwards Air Force Base to meet these people. The Earl of Clancarty, chairman of an all-party UFO Study Group in the House of Lords, claims he was told about the incident by a former United States test pilot who was an eyewitness. We reached Lord Clancarty in London.

ELIZABTEH GRAY: Lord Clancarty, can you tell us just a little bit about what happened, what the aliens looked like?

LORD CLANCARTY: Well, yes they reasonably like us, not completely, but they more or less looked human in a sense. They arrived in these five crafts, you see, I'm not quite sure how many aliens there were who went into the base. And apparently they demonstrated their machines, but also demonstrated paranormal powers, which were normal to them, you see.

EG: Such as what?

LC: Visible, invisible, visible. Of course Eisnehower and his boys were going ‘oh, oh’ you know what I mean. Because of that I gather that Eisenhower decided that it was really too much. Back in 1964 it would cause panic. You know, having people in open contact with those powers. So it was decided not to. Now, I’ll let you into something else.

EG: All right.

LC: If I may.

EG: Yes please, do.

LC: So what did happen at the base, I understand, was that they agreed that there might be panic if they demonstrated all these things, but they could conduct the education program on the planet. Eisenhower apparently said he didn't see any objection to that. Now as it happens, I know man called Sit John Whitmore, he used to be a racing driver or motorcycle driver, one or the other. And he knows Steven Spielberg, who, you know produced that film “Close Encounters of the Third Kind.”

EG: Yes.

LC: Now Spielberg apparently told Sir John that he had been inspired by extra-terrestrials to make a film. Now there’s your education program. That film has been seen in all sorts of places over the world hasn't it, by millions of people.

EG: Should we conclude from this, Lord Clancarty, that these aliens didn't ever leave, they stayed around after their meeting with President Eisenhower?

LC: There are supposed to be some extra-terrestrials moving about amongst us. Now I know that sounds a bit farfetched, but after all what we’re discussing is a farfetched subject all together, isn’t it?

JD: Former As It Happens host Elizabeth Gray, speaking with William Francis Brinsley Le Poer Trench, 8th Earl of Clancarty, in 1983.

Jill Tarter

JD: Close Encounters of the Third Kind was one of the best, but it is far from the first film to imagine human-alien contact — or the last. Hollywood is hooked on stargazing and gazing at the stars. Another film that did well at the box office was 1997’s Contact. Contact was based on the novel by the late astronomer and author Carl Sagan. Sagan based his protagonist, played in the movie by Jodie Foster, on a former director of the SETI Institute — SETI stands for Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. Back in 2012, As It Happens host Carol Off spoke with Jill Tarter after she announced that she was stepping down from her direct role, after 35 years of scanning the heavens for signs of intelligent life. Here's some of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Dr. Tarter, you've been searching for signs of life out there on another planet for decades. What exactly is it that you look for when you're trying to find extraterrestrial life?

JILL TARTER: We're actually using the tools of the astronomers. We do study at optical wavelengths and at radio wavelengths. When we use optical telescopes what the instrumentation is trying to do is find very bright flashes of light that last for only a billionth-of-a-second or less, because nature doesn't seem to be able to do this. Nature makes flashes but they're not this short, but lasers certainly can. In the radio part of the spectrum, we don't look for time compression, we look for frequency compression. We look for signals that show up at only one channel on the radio dial. Their energy isn't spread over many frequencies. So what we're doing is using technology as a proxy for intelligence. Because we can't detect intelligence over interstellar distances, I'm guessing your audience is intelligent, because they're listening to your program but I can't prove that. But they're using technology if they're hearing this and therefore we have another way of inferring that they're there and intelligent.

CO: But how do we know that we actually are able to pick up their signals? Could there possibly be a range of signals of technologies that we don't have the instruments even to begin to detect?

JT: Absolutely, that could in fact be the case. If there are other technologies out there that we could detect that statistically they’re are going to be older than we are. They couldn't be any younger because if they don't have at least our technical capability, interstellar communication is not in the cards, and they might have invented technologies that we can't even conceive of at the moment. On the other hand they might have an institute for ancient instruments that they use for the benefit of the emerging technologies in the galaxy the young folks like us. Or the laws of physics may in fact dictate that there isn't really anything more efficient for interstellar communication than the use of electromagnetic radiation. We don't know.

CO: You ever think if they are picking up our technology we should be terribly embarrassed?

[LAUGHTER]

JT: I think we’re not necessarily putting our best foot forward with some of our television content.

CO: And how can we be sure there'll be friendly, maybe they're best left unmolested?

JT: Well, the process of listening is passive and we can't know about their intentions until we make contact. I know Stephen Hawking has suggested that maybe we should be very quiet and not try and contact them, because it didn't work out very well for the Native Americans when Columbus showed up. On the other hand, if they can actually get here, their technology is far superior to what we have. That says to me they're older by a significant amount. And I am inclined to think that it can't get to be an old technology unless you solved some of the problems and the aggressive tendencies that may have characterized your youth.

JT: So you probably have had to figure out a way to stabilise your population and to husband the resources on your home world in order to grow old.

CO: That's a very optimistic view. It gives me hope possibly for our species.

JT: I don't know if I'm right. I don't know if Stephen is right. Neither of us is very expert at this field — no one is. We might as well listen and see if we can detect whether or not someone else is out there.

CO: I see this as a giant ear pressed to the wall of the universe.

JT: It's a big search.

CO: Well you'll let us know if you hear anything from out there.

JT: We will certainly let everyone know.

CO: Doctor Tarter, I wish you success and it's good to talk to you.

JT: Thank you Carol.

CO: Bye.

JD: From May 25th of 2012, that was Carol Off with the outgoing director of the SETI Institute, Jill Tarter.

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December 20, 2017 episode transcript

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