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The AIH Transcript for December 14, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight.

CO: Two different crashes, two different outcomes. All 25 passengers survived when a plane goes down in northern Saskatchewan — but a helicopter crash in southern Ontario kills four.

JD: Leave of abstinence. Because she has not been sober long enough an indigenous rights advocate is not eligible for a liver donation. Her mother tells us that is the only thing that might save her life.

CO: Kicking them when they're downloading. our guest says the repeal of so-called net neutrality in the U.S. is bad for consumers. And he should know he's the one who so called it net neutrality in the first place.

JD: Bears repeating. During a back and forth over whether a starving polar bear caught on video is in fact the face of climate change, an environmental activist riles Inuit people. Tonight the mayor of Iqaluit tells us why.

CO: Pain in the bot. San Francisco residents haven't taken kindly to a bullet shaped security robot named K9. And even though it's been ordered off the streets our guest thinks that, like the Terminator, it will be back.

JD: And…Isle at ease. Prince Edward Island writer reviews the provinces top news stories of 2017, featuring such press stoppers as a guy falling in a hole, a string found in a can and the chilling tale of the allegedly stolen shorts. As It Happens Thursday edition: Radio the guesses that’s life on P.E.I. — nasty, brutish and shorts.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Ontario Helicopter Crash, Saskatchewan Plane Crash, Homeless Robot

Ontario Helicopter Crash

Guest: Kim Clayton

JD: Investigators in eastern Ontario are trying to understand what led to a helicopter crash that left four people dead. Around noon, a Hydro One helicopter went down in the community of Tweed. And that news came on the heels of another serious crash in northern Saskatchewan. Last night a plane carrying 25 passengers crashed near the community of Fond du Lac — everyone survived. In about six minutes we'll hear from a man who went to the scene of that crash and helped rescue passengers. First though, we go to Tweed Ontario. The Hydro One helicopter crash happened on Kim Clayton's property. We reached Ms. Clayton at home in Tweed.

CO: Kim, were you aware that this helicopter was in your area before the crash?

KIM CLAYTON: Yes, they actually have been here, there's being ground crews for the past two weeks and then a helicopter, about a week ago, started coming. And so I've become accustomed to hearing it and seeing it.

CO: When did you realize that this helicopter was in distress?

KC: Well, they had been going south on the south towers and coming back every ten or 15 minutes, and I heard it coming back, like I have been for the last week, it coming back and forth, and didn't think anything of it. Ok it’s going back to land again. I found it all interesting because we had never seen anything like this before, just moving here, guys working in a helicopter on hydro lines though, and my kids are all fascinated with it. So I didn't think anything of it. And the next thing I know I hear a crash and the house shook a little bit and it and it doesn't sound right. And I'm thinking to myself ‘I hope the helicopter didn’t crash,’ and I ran to the nearest window, looked at the window to see if I could see anything, like I knew there was guys working on the lines as well. I thought maybe a crane fell or a truck crashed into another one. I didn't know because they're right on the road. I didn't know an accident happened out there or what happened, but I knew it had something to do with helicopter after a few minutes.

CO: Why did you know that it was the helicopter?

KC: Just because when it was landing, you know, as a helicopter does, the noises that it make. But then when it when it hit the trees, or whatever, it's like it was slowing down but not as a normal slowdown.

CO: So what did you see after that? What happened?

KC: I saw the other Hydro crew members scrambling around and going telling other guys tocall 911. I had opened the door to see if I could hear anything or wondering if I could call 911 or whatever and I heard someone yell call 911 the helicopter’s down. So then I see them all running towards the tree line. And then I saw, in one of the tallest trees, must have them part of the helicopters.

CO: Some of the debris from the blades or something was in the trees?

KC: Yes, yes piece of it. I don't know what exactly because a tree line is quite a distance from the house, so I didn't get a good view of it, but I saw something like red and I know that the colour of the helicopter was red.

CO: You could see the area where the helicopter went down but you couldn't see it close enough to see the thing itself?

KC: That's right. And I saw like all these guys running towards there.

CO: You’ve heard, I guess, that there were four people who were killed in the helicopter crash.

KC: Yes, because I saw all the ambulances come, there was four ambulances. And then the air ambulance came. So I saw the guys being loaded into the ambulance and then I was expecting to see them like leave. And when nobody left, I'm thinking like ‘Well this isn't good. Like my God they probably died, you know.’ And I just stood in the window and I'm thinking like, this is this is horrible. Like these guys aren’t coming out of this. Like when I first heard it I’m thinking, OK maybe it's not that bad. They're running over there and, you know, they were relatively calm or whatever. Maybe it's not as bad as it sounded, but when they didn't leave and I saw the cops putting up orange tape I kind of pieced it together.

CO: It must shake you to see all of that.

KC: It has because, like we've never seen them work on hydro line, and to have, you know, seen them for the past week come and go. And then this happened today. It's like it's beyond belief.

CO: You said your kids were fascinated by watching it. Were they home today?

KC: They weren't home today but the crew had been here on the weekend doing work as well. So my boys actually got to watch the helicopter, you know, take off and land.

CO: And this would be pretty difficult to explain to your boys.

KC: Yes, well I texted one, he’s 16, at school today and I told him that the helicopter crashed because I didn't know at that moment that there's any fatalities. But my 11-year-old, when he comes home tonight I’ll explain to him what happened. He’ll be sad.

CO: Have you been able to talk to any of the people who are there around the scene of the crash?

KC: Well, that's the thing too I didn't know, you know, if I should go running out there or if they’d just tell me to stay back that they have it. And there's so many people here that I just thought I'd be in the way. And so I just stood from the house, basically watching it unfold and trying to piece it together as much as I could.

CO: If you could say anything to the families of those people what would you like to say?

KC: I'm so, so sorry that this happened to them. Especially right before Christmas it just makes you realize how life is so precious and they didn't deserve to go out that way, that's for sure, so sad.

CO: Kim, I appreciate talking to you, thank you.

KC: Thank you.

JD: Kim Clayton lives in Tweed, Ontario. A Hydro One helicopter crashed on the property she rents there today killing four people. We reached Ms. Clayton in Tweed.

Saskatchewan Plane Crash

Guest: Raymond Sanger

JD: It follows a plane crash in northern Saskatchewan last night. In Fond du Lac, Saskatchewan, a plane took off towards Stony Rapids. Shortly after takeoff the plane crashed with 25 people on board. While some sustained serious injuries, there were no fatalities. Raymond Sanger is a local who helped rescue people from that crash. We reached Mr. Sanger at his home in Fond du Lac, Saskatchewan.

CO: Raymond, when did you first realize that something was wrong?

RAYMOND SANGER: I was at my brother's house play bingo last night, and while we were playing bingo a friend of mine was going home so I asked him to give me a ride home, he’s got a vehicle. So he had a phone call come in, he started raising his voice and he says “Where, where?” He looked at me and said “The plane went down, let’s go.” We jump in his truck and rushed to the airport. Sure enough there was nothing they usually see fire or stuff like that. This is night time already and there is no fire on the side. The airstrip lights went out, so we stood there. We’re just standing there and looking both ways looking at each other.

CO: And so you couldn't see any smoke, you couldn't see anything at all, but you'd heard that there was a plane crash. So how did you find the plane?

RS: We saw on the east side of the airstrip once the lights started showing up here and so I told him let’s go over there. So we went there and everybody, the people that I've met there, were saying the plane took off at this end of the airstrip, it should be in the bush area some place down here. We don't know how far we, don't know where and a few seconds later these two boys were just panting, breathing hard, they couldn’t even talk. They were just pointing that direction where they came out of the bush these boys coming from their wreckage. So I had no hesitation, I didn’t wait for nobody. So I started running. I don't know, I ran, ran, ran for about 15-20 minutes and I stopped. We could hear some people from the wreckage, it's not too far from where we were.

CO: What did you hear?

RS: We heard some screaming when we got there.

CO: What was the condition of the plane when you got there?

RS: The plane is wrecked, it's the wreckage. Not take it all fall apart, it’s still in one place but it's shape was bent to hell. The plane itself was sitting sideways. But there were no flashlights and all we could just smell is the gas. Everything in the air was just a jet fuel, and then I heard them again, somebody said do not use to lighter for light you’ll blow up everything. So I remember I had my phone and there’s a flashlight on it. So, I'm using my flashlight and I was crawling to the wreckage and everything was sideways so I was crawling. I got to the area where the lady was pinned inside there. I said, “Are you OK?” She lifts up her hand and I know she's still alive and I was trying to get something. What can I do to help? Where can I come in to help? Because I'm just shocked and I helped out with what I can, the whole wreckage is full of gas everywhere and jet fuel is leaking everywhere. I didn't care about that, I was just there to help all of them and I got to do what I got to do just to get these people out. And we're using our hands, we're taking this aircraft apart, ripping it apart. Bit’ it’s it's not like ripping up a piece of paper. It's just like metal, completely hard, solid metal. We're using a cutter. When I got there, there were three people there, the doctor, the lady and the boy pinned inside. The rest of the people were gone. They left because everybody survived, they all walked away.

CO: OK, Raymond, just so I understand, people who could walk away had left the plane at that point and got out?

RS: Everybody was gone except those three people got pinned inside.

CO: How old do you think the boy was?

RS: Early 20s. The boy was disabled. I tried to help the boy, talk with the boy and the lady was in there and I was talking to them keep to him alive and to make sure they don't go under. And I took off my jacket for the lady there because she was freezing.

CO: How did you get them out?

RS: I don't know how we did it but we finally ripped out one side of the plane and I crawl in there. I was talking to this boy holding his hand because he’s in worse shape than these other two. I get him to breathe and gave him some water as they released the doctor. They pulled the doctor out first. And now we're working on this lady that's pinned inside there, her legs were under the seat the whole plane was just squashed together from the inside the plane. Finally we got her out, we jacked up — they brought out a jack. So we got it between the seat and sure enough we're making room for the lady. We took out some cushions for the boy so he can breathe. Whatever had to be done we were doing it to keep these people alive. If that fire had struck everybody in that plane, me and, that boy and that lady and the doctor, we would have all been fried.

CO: And so now everyone is alive. Some people were hurt, but everyone survived that crash and that's quite something.

RS: It's a miracle. That's what I call a miracle. We walked away and everybody survived and nobody seriously hurt.

CO: That's quite an ordeal for you as well. How are you doing?

RS: I was kind of traumatized a bit, all night I couldn't sleep, and I can't get rid of everything that I saw.

CO: And the smell probably that stays in your mind, the smell of something that could have gone off as you say, with just with one little flick of a flame.

RS: That would have been it. My clothes were just like soaking wet, they're still sitting outside. I don't think I’ll use them again.

CO: They’re soaked in fuel.

RS: Yeah, that’s all the cold I got for winter, and they’re gone.

CO: Raymond, I hope that someone can help you with that, but I just want to say I think it's just great that you were there. Just before we started you say you didn't want to be a hero, but you are.

RS: Well whoever calls me a hero, I thank them. Somebody sent me there for a reason. If you want to call me a hero, I accept that.

CO: Well, thank you for speaking with us as well. Thanks Raymond.

RS: Thank you and have a good day.

JD: Raymond Sanger helped rescue passengers from last night's plane crash in Fond du Lac, Saskatchewan. Twenty five people on board — everyone survived.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Grenfell Anniversary

Guest: Barbara Ehrenreich

SOUNDCLIP

CHOIR SINGING

JD: Today in London at St. Paul's Cathedral hundreds of people gathered to remember the victims of the Grenfell Tower fire. Survivors and victim’s families joined members of the royal family and politicians at a multi-faith service. It was six months ago today, that 71 people died when a fire engulfed the high-rise apartment building. A montage of voices from the local community played out during the service.

SOUNDCLIP

SERVICE ATTENDEE 1: We were lost for words, we didn’t know what to do, how to react. I’ve never known anything like it in my life. The windows broke break.

SERVICE ATTENDEE 2: Things were falling to the floor, and then in the space of six minutes the fire had reaches six floors above it.

SERVICE ATTENDEE 3: You could see the smoke. Felt as if it wasn't real.

SERVICE ATTENDEE 4: Quite a lot of children in the area, and sadly, quite a few lives that we’ll never see again.

SERVICE ATTENDEE 5: You begin to feel survivor's guilt, and I think maybe not now, but within the next couple of months, we will start to question why was it them? Why wasn't it us? Why did we survive, why didn't they? That will always be something that will be eating away our minds.

JD: Voices of the survivors and their families heard today at the Grenfell Tower national memorial service. Six months ago a fire erupted in the west end of the West London tower. Seventy one people were killed.

Music: Ambient Tones]

Homeless Robot

Guest: Fran Taylor

JD: The city of San Francisco has ordered a robot off the streets — for now. The robot is nicknamed K9. It is a security robot made by a Silicon Valley start-up named Knightscope. And it was deployed by the San Francisco SPCA, in part, to prevent homeless people in the area from setting up camp around its buildings. If you'd like to see what this robot looks like you can check out our website. And despite its smooth R2-D2-esque exterior Fran Taylor is not a fan of K9. She has encountered the robot in the past and she worries that though it may be off the streets for now, we have not heard the last of it. We reached Fran Taylor in San Francisco.

CO: Fran, can you briefly describe your first encounter with this robot?

FRAN TAYLOR: Well, I was coming out of a training class with my dog at the San Francisco Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. And I looked down the block and this thing was coming toward me. It's quite large. And at first I thought it was from some little start-up firm or something being used as a joke or, you know, test. And then as it got closer I could see it had a SPCA logo and pictures of Chihuahuas and other dogs on it, and I realized that it was being used by the SPCA ,and I was horrified. My dog started barking and lunging at it and I started saying, stop get that thing off the sidewalk. Farther down the block I could see a few men sort of looking like they were connected to it somehow and eventually they stopped it about, I don't know, five to ten feet away from me and it turned around and went back toward them.

CO: Describe what it looked like?

FT: Well, it's about five feet tall and it weighs close to 400 pounds and it looks like a bullet. You know, it's cylindrical and it comes to a point like a bullet or a bomb, that kind of thing, with the pointy head and it just sort of wheels along about three-miles-an-hour and makes little sort of beepy worry noises. And it's evidently fitted with cameras and sensors, it supposedly won't run into you. But I didn't get to test it in that way.

CO: And what does the SPCA say is the reason why they have this robot?

FT: Well, they were very cagey at first and said that it was because of crime. And then as a few people probed a little more deeply it became clear that they were actually targeting homeless encampments. There are some tent encampments around the area, it's an industrial area, it's not residential and this is the kind of place where people who are trying to go under the radar pitch their tents. And the SPCA buildings are their property, they have an animal hospital training centre, adoption center and so on. But the sidewalks around it are public sidewalks. And this is where the robot was buzzing around and in their later statements they did say that they were targeting the homeless encampments. And to me this is just a tool of intimidation, because it's not conveying new information, everybody knows the tents are there. So it's not like they're saying oh look here's a tent, we're going to tell somebody. It's just making life miserable for the people who might want to sleep there because it makes noise, it goes around 24/7, it has sort of lights blinking.

CO: It’s gathering information if it has cameras.

FT: Exactly. You know it’s just — you have to ask where will they be used next. I mean, it's just to me, I'm sort of thinking of them as the mechanical Pinkertons, you know, the goon squads that the Carnegie's and so on in the 19th century sent out to break strikes — but these are machines.

CO: Would you have as much problem if they hired a security guard who was walking up and down doing the same thing?

FT: Well, no, for several reasons. For one, it's a job for somebody and in San Francisco the minimum wage is about 14 dollars an hour. These robots cost them seven dollars an hour.

CO: Is that what they cost to rent?

FT: Yeah, and they've said this is one of the reasons they're doing it. The other thing is a security guard can poke around and see if there's something suspicious going on and be a human and maybe have some connection with people that you see night, after night. And this machine goes around all day, even during the daylight hours when there's a lot of foot traffic and people coming in to look at the animals or go to classes, when it just seems clearly meant to be a deterrent.

CO: Has that worked? Have you noticed that it is intimidating homeless people who might use that part of the sidewalk?

FT: Well, according to the SPCA, yes the encampments have gone down. So they've gone someplace else. What does that do? I mean, this is just kind of a sweep it away from my sidewalk, which is really not their sidewalk it's for the public. And there are a lot of small children and dogs on that sidewalk, and I think it's dangerous.

CO: They say, now the San Francisco SPCA President Jennifer Scarlett, who issued a statement, she says “We weren’t able to use the sidewalks at all when there were needles and tents and bikes. So from a walking standpoint I find the robot much easier to navigate than an encampment.”

FT: Well, the hypocrisy coming from people who complain about tent encampments could be put into some context, because San Francisco has on the books laws that say it's illegal to park on the sidewalk and they don't enforce it. People with driveways and so on they're constantly blocking the sidewalk. My mother used to be in a wheelchair, we'd have to go out on the street to get around. So this has always been a problem in San Francisco. But now they're picking on a constituency that's pretty defenseless — homeless people. And it just seems like there's another way to deal with this, addressing the overall problem of why are people homeless in San Francisco. Well, here's a 14 dollar an hour job disappearing and then that's connected to the fact that people have no place to live.

CO: Now I understand there have been some remarks about, I guess, the irony of the SPCA which is trying to help homeless animals and has a problem with homeless people.

FT: Exactly. And I've loved the SPCA, I have gotten a couple of dogs and a cat there, I’ve taken many, many classes there. But they have these sort of precious little kennels and stuff, with fake TV sets and lounges and so on for the animals, and then they are sicking their robots on the humans. There is definitely thick irony there.

CO: I understand the city though, has ordered the SPCA to take the robot off the streets. Does that solve the problem?

FT: Well, they said because they didn't apply for a permit. So now they'll apply for a permit and then maybe they'll be back. So I think this is just a trend that needs to be addressed before it becomes in wide use.

CO: The people, some of the homeless people actually tried to do something to stop these robots, they tried to cover up their sensors.

FT: You know, I have to say, I'm a 68-year-old senior and if one of these things were coming at me I'd be tempted to, you know, take a baseball bat to it or something myself.

CO: So they, I understand but barbecue sauce on the sensors.

FT: I have to keep that in mind.

CO: Not quite a baseball bat, but probably has the same effect.

[LAUGHTER]

FT: Yeah, a little more subtle.

CO: OK, we'll leave it there Fran. Thanks a lot.

FT: OK, thank you.

CO: Bye.

FT: Bye, bye.

JD: We reached Fran Taylor in San Francisco. And, again, if you would like to see what this robot looks like we do have a photograph on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

Soap Opera Quote

JD: Maybe you felt it when Ross mistakenly said Rachel's name during his wedding — ooh la la. Or when you were left desperately wondering if Jon Snow was dead or alive after he had been stabbed — ooh la la. We all know that feeling after a television cliffhanger you gasp you whisper, ooh la la or something along those lines, possibly less radio friendly. And you wonder how you're gonna continue to live until there's some resolution to that one pivotal, fictional incident. That is how viewers of The New Zealand soap opera Shortland Street felt after a key plot point was left dangling in more ways than one. The scene was so popular that one of the lines has now been voted quote of the year. We will let you guess which one. Here's the scene in which a father on the show confronts his teenage son.

SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE CHARACTER: Fulsom house, where’s your room?

MALE CHARACTER: Upstairs. Maybe this is a mistake.

FC: You said your Dad’s at golf.

DAD: He's not at golf.

MC: Hey Dad, this is Lily.

FC: Hi.

DAD: Go home please, Lily.

MC: What, why?

DAD: Where’s is Finn?

MC: Swimming.

DAD: Goodbye Lily.

MC: No.

FC: There’s always tomorrow.

MC: OK that was rude.

DAD: Rude? I'll show you a rude. Your tablet is still synced to your phone. Please tell me that is not your penis.

JD: Ooh lala. A cliff hanger on the New Zealand TV show Shortland Street. After a vote, Massey University, has declared that one earth shattering line, “Please tell me that's not your penis,” the quote of the year. A press release highlighted the show's important message about the risks of sexting, although it may not have been quite as profound a message as the writers had hoped. An organizer of the Quote Of The Year competition said quote “The suspense is a laughably theatrical rather than anxiety inducing.”

Back To Top »

Part 2: Delilah Saunders, Net Neutrality, P.E.I. Newsmakers

Delilah Saunders

Guest: Miriam Saunders

JD: A young Indigenous rights advocate remains in critical condition in an Ottawa hospital. Delilah Saunders’ family says that though a liver transplant could save her, she is not eligible for that operation. The agency responsible for organ donations in Ontario requires any patient seeking a transplant as a result of chronic alcoholic liver disease, to go six months without drinking to be eligible. Delilah Saunders’ sister Loretta Saunders was studying Indigenous women in Canada when she was murdered in 2014. Miriam Saunders is Delilah and Loretta's mother. We reached Miriam Saunders at a hospital in Ottawa.

CO: Ms. Saunders, I know you're at the hospital now with your daughter. How is she doing?

MIRIAM SAUNDERS: She's the same. Her liver’s still not doing nothing so far.

CO: Were you able to talk to her before she went into the hospital?

MS: Not at first. Not when we first came. But now since we came they said she's getting more alert since she heard voices, I guess, because since we come she's coming out of it and she can talk and she’s even sat up a few times.

CO: Why is Delilah not eligible for a liver transplant?

MS: Because she had a drink of alcohol within the six month period. There's a legislation saying that if you drink alcohol — you have to be alcohol free for six months or something.

CO: Is that for medical reasons?

MS: No, they said because they could be giving her a liver and then she'd go out and do the same thing. Just because she had the drink in the six month period she's been off of the beer for — she was in recovery for four-and-a-half-months and then after the Murdered and Missing Inquiry she called me a few times saying that she felt so alone and that she never had no support. There was no support put in place for her when she left the Inquiry. So after the Inquiry she had a slip and a drink. So I guess that's the reasoning.

CO: I just want to tell people in case they don't know or they've forgotten, what your daughter Delilah was doing at the Inquiry into Missing and murdered Indigenous Women. She was there to talk about her sister — and this is your other daughter — and the testimony she gave last October. Delilah said that Loretta was my best friend, she was my other half.

MS: Yes, she was. They were very close, they stuck close together.

CO: And your daughter Loretta was murdered by these two people who are now in prison. But they murdered her because they didn't want to pay rent for the place they were subletting from her. So this is the whole background to why that situation that Delilah, is in she ended up having a drink at that point, and now because of that they say they can't give her a liver transplant.

MS: Plus she was going all over the place to different schools and universities, given talks warning other young like young people who planned to go to secondary schooling, and she was one trying to warn them so that they wouldn't get in the same situation as her sister Loretta. She was doing all of this and not taking care of herself because she didn't want to deal with the fact that her sister was really gone.

CO: You're saying she was trying to stay sober and stay clean. She had this drink after the Inquiry and that's now the reason why they're saying she can't have the transplant. What are the arguments you're giving back? Because this is the policy they've told others before that they won't allow for the transplant. What case are you making that they should make an exception for Delilah?

MS: The way I feel is that it's not only an exception for Delilah — yes she’s my baby, she’s part of my body — they’re even refusing for me to give donate part of my liver. But that's my body, like I said, that's my body, she grew in my body, she came out of my body. And they're even refusing me as a mother to put part of my body back into part of my own body. And to me I'd feel helpless. I thought I hurt when — I really thought I hurt when I lost Loretta, but that wasn't the case. As I didn't think I could hurt any harder than when I lost my baby — I told people I care no more than I lost my baby because there was murderers killed her. But now to sit down and watch people who's supposed to be saving lives watching my baby die — to me it's the same thing. The government is murdering my baby because they are capable of saving her life and many others that they refuse who need liver transplants because of alcohol.

CO: The other thing is that they are going to start this pilot project, they're going to actually in Ontario, change the rules temporarily to get rid of this sobriety rule and they're going to do that in about eight months.

MS: Yes, but in eight months she could be dead, Sshe could be dead. We could go up now and they could tell us she's gone. We don't know, she will be gone today. We're just, we're just thankful that she's still alive today, but she could go any day her liver is gone now. So they're just waiting to me. And it's not nurses, it's not the doctors fault, it's our government. And to me, the way I feel our, government is no different than the two murderers who murdered my daughter Loretta, because they killed her. I wasn't there to help her. We have hundreds of people willing to help my daughter but no the government is saying no let her die. To me that's a murder, no different than the two murderers who murdered Loretta, our government, with their crazy legislation they’ve got plans to change in eight months, is letting her die right in front of our eyes.

CO: Ms. Saunders, I'm so sorry for all you are going through and have gone through with your daughters. It's just so tragic. And I appreciate, very much, that would speak with us. We'll keep in touch.

MS: Thank you my love.

JD: Miriam Saunders is Delilah Saunders mother. We reached her in Ottawa. And for more on this story do tune into the current tomorrow morning on CBC Radio One. They will explore the ethics of who's allowed on organ transplant lists.

[Music: Sombre Piano]

Net Neutrality

Guest: Tim Wu

JD: After a 3 to 2 vote it is official — the U.S. Federal Communications Commission, the FCC — will end net neutrality. And this means that Internet service providers will now be allowed to speed up or slow down different companies’ data. They will also be able to charge customers according to the services they access. FCC Chairman Ajit Pai says the change is a move toward quote “restoring Internet freedom,” — our guest does not agree. Tim Wu coined the term net neutrality. He is a law professor at Columbia University. We reached him in New York.

CO: Professor Wu, just as we mentioned, you coined the term net neutrality back in 2002. Did you ever foresee something like this happening?

PROFESSOR TIM WU: Well, first I didn't expect that the term would become popular, but I also didn't expect the FCC to completely abandon its oversight of telephone and cable companies. That has been a surprise.

CO: What was your reaction when you heard that the FCC is repealing net neutrality with the vote today?

TW: In some sense ever since last year's presidential election, you know, this day has been coming. I was in the White House actually when Trump won and we sort of all immediately said well net neutrality is going to be a target. It was dispiriting, how's that?

CO: Why did you think it was inevitable?

TW: Well, we had the sense that the phone and cable companies would be pushing extremely hard on the Republican administration to get rid of net neutrality, and frankly, get rid of any government oversight. They actually went further than I expected.

CO: Just for people who don't understand, because net neutrality sounds, well it could be — sounds kind of vague, doesn't it? So what does it actually mean for people who use the Internet?

TW: Yes, sure. So it's, I think, pretty simple. It's a series of constraints on the cable and phone companies who actually own the wires that bring you the Internet it says that they can't block things, so they can act as censors. They can't throttle video or other applications, and they can't sort of speed up some stuff and slow down other stuff — degrade and upgrade. They just kind of got to carry everything like a common carrier.

CO: And why would they do that? What would be the purpose for a corporation throttling or blocking or speeding or slowing?

TW: Well, let's rewind couple of years back and Netflix is just getting started. Now what cable company wants Netflix to succeed and thrive? They'd rather they die in the cradle, their neck encircled by a corporate choke ring or something like that. So, you know, you might have sites that are critical like a consumer site that says ‘hey you're being overcharged and overbilled.’ Well, you know, why not just censor it that's simpler. Some of it is just like ways to make more money so they can kind of introduce different price tiers.

CO: Now the chairman of the FCC says — this is Ajit Pai — said that the reason why he's doing this is that there has been a marked decrease in the amount of investment in technology, and this kind of technology, and that he wants to restore that interest in investing in internet because It'll mean that there will be perhaps a greater reach of Internet access to rural customers. There may be ways of improving the service people get. These are things that can't happen unless the companies get more money. What do you say to that?

TW: I think it's, at best, a laughable proposition. I mean, they've made a fortune selling broadband service. So he thinks that investment is going down and there's no strong economic evidence that that's true. You know, it's been a big money maker for everybody, it's just the cable and phone companies have always wanted to make more money and they will make more money now. You know, whether that ends up being good for anyone it's up for them I severely doubt it.

CO: Mr. Pai used to work as a lawyer for Verizon. So what are we hearing from companies like Verizon about this decision?

TW: I think they're very happy. Since the early days of the Internet, they've looked at all these companies making a lot of money and they've sort of been like ‘we want more of a cut.’ And do I blame them for wanting more money? I mean, I guess that's the way companies are, but as I said you don't necessarily have to let them. And, you know, the by-product, I guess the collateral damage, are the smaller sites, the little guys non-profits, Wikipedia, bloggers and so on they don't have the money to pay Verizon and to get priority access or get out of the slow lane. So I think it really does fundamentally alter what the Internet is all about.

CO: So why should people care? I mean, they have their phone, their cable, they have Netflix, they have everything. Will they actually notice any difference in their lives and their ability to communicate, to express themselves after this decision?

TW: Well, I haven't met that many people who think their cable bill is too low and one way or another I think you will end up paying more for the Internet after this, netflix might become more expensive. I think you can expect also, you know, let's say you're someone who likes Wikipedia or other projects, you can expect them to need to raise more money. I think you can expect less of the sort of vibrant, new efforts to start companies. So I think it kind of just sort of stagnates things and, more extremely, puts a lot more control in private hands.

CO: And just another issue, yesterday New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, he released an update over his investigation into what he found were fake comments submitted during the FCC comment process into net neutrality. He says there are 5,000 people who have filed complaints saying their identities are used on the FCC website. What do you make of that?

TW: Yes, so this is this is correct. So the way it works in the American legal system is that federal agencies really set the rules for public comment. And the last time around, millions of people filed comments saying they supported net neutrality and they put a lot of pressure for strong rules. So this time around some nefarious actor, no one knows exactly who, although some of the suspects are obvious, decided they were going to really complicate this public process in order to make it seem as if the public was heavily divided. So millions of comments were filed against net neutrality, in favour of repeal, and many of them — maybe millions of them — turned out to be with stolen identities. People who, you know, really had nothing to say about this find themselves saying things. So it turned into a kind of a battle of the robots. Frankly, it's just an attack on democracy, it's a really serious issue.

CO: Just finally, is this over, is this it? Is the FCC decision the final word?

TW: Oh no, you must be kidding. We will never surrender, I guess. And I think those who believe that unconstrained monopoly power is a problem are numerous. And so one thing is there's going to be an immediate court challenge to the rule. And I think it's a strong one. Frankly thereason I'm not more depressed than I might seem is that I think this rule is going to get struck down in court. The whole idea that the cable company or phone company to block parts of the Internet off is such a radical departure from federal practice, frankly going back 50 years terms of supervision of the carriers — and Ajit Pai only got this idea that they want to encourage investment. And I just don't think that's enough. So I think this is going to be thrown out in court.

CO: We will leave it there. Professor Wu, thank you.

TW: Thank you.

JD: We reached Tim Wu in New York.

P.E.I. Newsmakers

Guest: Dave Atkinson

JD: Movers, shakers, bottle flippers — the newsmakers of Prince Edward Island 2017. When you look back at the year that was, there was a lot of news to wade through. And writer Dave Atkinson and some journalist buddies have done that. After careful analysis of a year's worth of headlines on P.E.I., they have announced their eight newsmakers of the year. We reached Mr. Atkinson in Charlottetown, and before we go on I should warn you that this interview may not be disturbing to anyone in the least.

CO: Dave, I'm looking at your long list and what an embarrassment of riches.

DAVE ATKINSON: It really, 2017 Carol has been, I don't know, it's been wonderful. It's been a wonderful year for the P.E.I. newsmakers.

CO: Well then let's just look to the shortlist because maybe we'll dip into the long list if we have time. But on the shortlist, the top of the list is ‘Kids Flip Bottles.’

DA: Yes, yes. OK so, I mean, if you've ever been like in an arena in the last two years or some public place there's probably like a 12-year-old kid with a water bottle who is trying to throw it in the air and make it land on its bottom. That was the story, it was on the CBC.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: And that's what happened? Well, OK something a bit more dramatic I think is ‘String In Can Of Tomatoes.’

DA: Yes, can you imagine?

CO: Outrageous.

DA: Here is a guy opening his can of tomatoes, crushed tomatoes, I don't know if he's going to make a sauce or whatever, but he finds a string in it.

CO: And they reported on it.

DA: And they reported on it.

CO: Of course they did. Come on, you haven't given it its full due here. The canned exploded when he put the electric can opener to it.

DA: OK, you’ve caught me.

CO: I actually dipped into these stories Dave, I did my work on this. I mean, when you're dealing with the P.E.I. news making stories of the year, you don't want to miss anything.

DA: This is actually really tough Carol, because like the whole thing of this is that it reads a lot like I'm making fun. And so it's hard to sort of talk about it in a way that it's not, but it's really a love letter. This is my love letter to the place that I live, because we live in a place where there's an entire province with just 150,000 people. We have two daily newspapers. We have an entire CBC to cover those places. That's a lot of journalists per capita, and everyday those reporters wake up and say ‘What are the three stories I'm going to pitch to my producers today? And so it means that the criteria for a story is much different. This means that I live in the greatest place on earth. There are no murders to report about, there's the corruption is really small time corruption Carol. So kids flipping bottles and a guy finding a string in his tomato can is the news.

CO: But I don't think — I am not mocking these at all. This is, any one of these stories, should have been, and could have been on As It Happens. I mean, this is As It Happens gold.

[LAUGHTER]

DA: Well, see I've always thought you should have a producer on a Prince Edward Island. Well now we have you do this. Now look ‘Son Of God On Shelf Of Wood.’

DA: Yes, OK, so a man found an image that he believed looks like Jesus on his shelf.

CO: In the wood?

DA: In the wood grain there was the image of Jesus.

CO: Now listen have you looked at the photos?

DA: I’m going to be honest, it too me a bit but I saw it.

CO : Can you see the face of Jesus in the wood?

DA: Eventually, yes.

CO: I can't.

DA: It could have been almost any bearded man that I know — but yes, also Jesus.

CO: Really? OK. Well, I mean I think it's obviously in the eye of the beholder, or maybe there's some reason why I can't see it.

DA: You've got to look with your heart, Carol.

CO: ‘Man Falls In A Hole.’ Stop the presses.

DA: I often, we often, synthesize it — because I put this list together with a couple of co-workers Ty Stapleton and Neal Gillis. And we often synthesize the headline to sort of get to the nub of what happened, but this is in fact almost the exact headline from the Journal Pioneer that a man fell in a manhole. They later updated it to, he was intoxicated and unfortunately, and he fell and he needed some help getting out.

CO: I thought your criteria was that these couldn't be sad stories or have bad endings?

DA: See here's the thing. The reason why there's a long list and then a short list is that we developed some criteria. And part of the criteria of this is that we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings and we don't want any stories in there that have sort of an element of tragedy. There are some stories that have comic elements into it but the characters are perhaps tragic. So there are certain stories that don't make it to the short list because of that. So to say that everything's goofy and light and these things happen, but yeah we're pretty careful with what we put on there.

CO: OK now there's one that a lot of parents can identify with a ‘Teen under cooks chicken strips.’

DA: Yeah, that's one that is maybe a little editorializing on our on our part. The story was a mum was upset with the local shop because her son got sick and they decided that it was because the chicken strips that they bought at the store made him sick. And it couldn't have been that he undercooked them because he's always done such a good job with them. The photo that accompanies it, you can almost see the son thinking, ‘Oh god I can't tell her the truth, that I may be nuked them for a few minutes too few.

CO: But this story did have a good ending, it didn't end tragically?

DA: Everybody's OK. No worries.

CO: OK. And so and including ‘Flat tire car fire?’

DA: Oh, so, I mean, everyone was safe on that one, but that's actually a personal favorite of my buddy Ty’s. So that was a couple of fellows had an appointment at the hospital and they were driving in and they hit a bump and got a flat tire. And rather than pulling over they decided ‘oh heck let's just drive it on the rim.’ It created a bit of friction which started a fire and they got out just in time and the entire car was gone.

CO: Good heavens!

DA: There’s still actually a mark on the highway.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: That's a big story.

DA: Yes, yes it is.

CO: How come that wasn't on As It Happens?

DA: I forgot to call, Carol.

CO: Clearly. Well, you know the saying that may you live — the curse may you live in interesting times. You clearly are not cursed in P.E.I.

DA: No, it really it really is the greatest place on earth. And I want to say again that I have the utmost respect for the people who write these stories and for the people who live here. And I'm originally from Ontario, I moved here about 10 years ago, and within a few weeks of moving here the front page of the paper let everybody know that the potato harvest had started in earnest. And I saw that and I think I live in the greatest place on the planet.

CO: Lucky you. Dave, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

DA: Thanks Carol.

JD: You do indeed. Dave Atkinson is a writer based in Charlottetown. You'll find Dave's complete list on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Back To Top »

Part 3: Mosque Construction, Polar Bear Hunt

Tavis Smiley

JD: Tavis Smiley has joined the growing list of high profile men who have been suspended or fired because of accusations of sexual misconduct. Mr. Smiley however, says he intends to fight back. He's the host of a late night talk show on PBS. Yesterday the network suspended that program after receiving quote “multiple credible allegations” unquote of misconduct against him. Tavis Smiley responded to PBS in a Facebook video.

SOUNDCLIP

TAVIS SMILEY: Let me say at the outset that I have the utmost respect for all women, and I certainly celebrate the courage of those women who've come forth of late to share their own truth. Let me also assure you that I have never groped, inappropriately exposed myself or coerced any colleague in the workplace, ever, in my 30 year career. PBS launched this so-called investigation of me without ever even telling me about it. I only learned of this investigation because former colleagues, former staffers started to call me to tell me they were getting a phone call from some PBS investigator asking number one: Did Tavis ever make you feel uncomfortable in the workplace? And number two: Can you give us other persons to call? Only after threatening a lawsuit, did PBS investigators agree to sit down and talk to me for three hours. And even then their minds must have been made up, because almost immediately after that session ended this story broke in Variety. PBS investigators refused to look in any of my documentation, refused to talk to any of my current staffers, refused give me the names of any of my accusers and refused to give me any semblance of due process. It is clear that this has gone too far and, I for one, intend to fight back. PBS overreacted and they launched a sloppy investigation. It's time for a real conversation in this country about where the lines are, about how men and women can engage each other in the workplace. And I look forward to actively participating in that conversation.

JD: That was Tavis Smiley responding to PBS for suspending his late night talk show over allegations of sexual misconduct.

[Music: Ambient Woodwinds]

Mosque Construction

Guest: Zahra Al-Mawlawi

JD: In Quebec tonight Premier Philippe Couillard is denouncing what he calls a baseless story about a Montreal mosque excluding women from a nearby construction site. The story began on Tuesday, the news outlet, TVA Nouvelles, ran a story claiming that the Ahl-Ill Bait Mosque had a contract, with the contractor working next door, that barred women from working on Fridays. Now the mosque's leaders said that they had done no such thing. Quebec’s Construction Commission investigated and announced this afternoon that the contract said nothing of the kind, and that no one from the mosque had ever made such a request. Nonetheless, premier Couillard has decided it is necessary to tell people that there is no reason for a protest outside the mosque during tomorrow's Friday prayers. Zahra Al-Mawlawi attends the Ahl-Ill Bait Mosque. We reached her Montreal earlier today.

CO: Ms. Al-Mawlawi, where do you think this story could have come from?

ZAHRA AL MAWLAWI: I have no idea, I don't know if it was a tip or if someone was there and they saw that there's a door that says male entrance and female entrance and they kind of played on that narrative, or that they're trying to further pursue that way of thinking that ‘oh, you know, in the Muslim religion, men are seen as superior to women.’ That’s an outrageous claim, that's an outrageous way of thinking. But that's where my mind went to, are they trying to like play on this narrative, because if they are it's not true. But other than that, no idea where it could have came from.

CO: You're a member of this mosque, Ahl-Ill Bait Mosque, and so is it a conservative mosque? How are women treated at the mosque?

ZAM: Oh my God, they're treated with utmost respect. I mean, you know, there is a door to enter for males and females. Just like with any mosque, but it doesn't mean that inside the mosque it's segregated. So they have that just for convenience purposes that women who want to, you know, they want the comfort of taking this scarf off or, you know, breastfeeding their child. They want to have that privacy, but inside we always do mixed events. Children, elderly come together. So, I mean, never have there been an issue between the men and the women. And we always invite outside speakers to come, especially around election time — male and female politicians would come in. We would even request for them to wear — we don't tell them you have to wear a scarf to come in — they wear whatever they want to wear. They come in they may ask us is there any dress code. We'll tell them that you know this is what we wear, but you're entitled to your own whatever you want to wear, come on right in, you're welcome. We want to speak with you as a person and it doesn't matter how you come dressed.

CO: And how wide and far has this story spread at this point spread?

ZAM: Pretty far, I mean, we have heard we have people internationally in the U.K., friends that I know, who have been through social media been hearing about this. But I know like amongst Quebec it's a lot bigger. I've been following a couple of Facebook pages from different organizations. There is another Facebook Event page I was following of people who are planning to come to for manifestation tomorrow. And, you know, it seems like they're really serious about coming out and making a point to come to the mosque for Friday prayer. I know in Ontario as well my friends from the mosques over there have been seeking to them, they're kind of on high alert just keeping an eye out on things because I mean, what happens in Quebec, I mean, it could happen anywhere else in Canada. So they want to make sure that they are protecting their citizens in the greater community around the mosque not just the members who attend.

CO: You said that you've been following some attempts to organize protests. What have you seen?

ZAM: Well there was two that I saw on Facebook. One of them, as of this morning, I saw 135 people said they were going. Obviously it's just a number but I was looking at the comments and people are actually saying that, you know, ‘I'm coming from Quebec City, I'm coming from Grenville, from Repentigny, I have room my car, who wants to join me? Let’s try and make our voices heard.’ And I was like OK this is actually serious right now. People are actually coming from afar, they're willing to come all the way here on Friday in the cold and you know protest outside the mosque.

CO: To protest what?

ZAM: That women have the right to work. And also a lot of the comments that I'm seeing are that ‘see look, they got their way. Islam is trying to take over and Quebec so be careful everybody.’

CO: And you mentioned this group, La Meute, which is an anti-Islamic, anti-immigrant group, and so they are leading these protests tomorrow?

ZAM: I saw in one of the Facebook events that they were. There was another event, I'm not too sure if it's by them, where I saw the attendees being more than 135 this morning. But the other group that I saw from La Meute that they had put up pointers of, you know, we should go there, what we should say, what should we do. But it seems like they are really adamant about going out there and making their point. And the unfortunate thing is that you know if there are only news source is TVA, and TVA has yet to kind of come out with any kind of update or development to the story, by saying by the way our original story we mentioned this, it's actually like this, they still have that anger fueled from them from seeing this story on Tuesday.

CO: And tomorrow, of course, being Friday, are you are planning to go to Ahl-Ill Bait Mosque tomorrow?

ZAM: Yeah, I was planning to go just to show my support just from my community as well. Just so that we show that if you're coming out here to protest the right of women we're in support of you. I mean, women, despite whatever industry they work in, they should be working. But if you're coming to put us down for being a follower of your religion or you're scared that you're we're going to take over or something, well you know, we have to stand up to that oppression, we have to stand up to injustice that's happening. And as a female Muslim woman, and I'm like identifiable wearing a headscarf, I have to make sure that they see that I'm just as much as part of society as they are and that I have a voice too.

CO: Will you feel safe tomorrow?

ZAM: I'm scared, my colleagues are actually scared for me. They’re like ‘Zahra, you're pregnant, how are you going?’ I’m like ‘Don't worry I I won't be at the forefront, I'll just be there for just numbers and support.’ But it is scary, definitely. You don't know what’s going to happen. Police are aware, they are on high alert for tomorrow just so that they know that there's a protest planning to happen.

CO: Ms. Al-Mawlawi, thank you.

ZAM: Thank you for having me. Take care.

JD: Zahra Al-Mawlawi attends the Ahl-Ill Bait Mosque. We reached her in Montreal earlier today.

[Music: Hip-Hop]

Site C: Indigenous

Guest: Chief Harley Chingee

JD: Earlier on in the week you may have heard our coverage of the British Colombian government’s decision on Site C. On Monday Premier John Horrigan announced that hydro-electric dam project would go ahead, but he did so with a lot of qualifications and implied apologies saying he quote “did so with a heavy heart.” And that is because there has been strong opposition to the project. We heard from a farmer who could lose his family home and several Indigenous leaders have criticised the decision. Some say that they are taking legal action. One person told the CBC News it was a quote “reconciliation fail.” But Harley Chingee sees it differently. He is the chief of the Mcleod Lake Indian Band. He told the CBC's Sarah Penton how he's feeling about the decision.

SOUNDCLIP

CHIEF HARLEY CHINGEE: Well, I told Mr. Horrigan there awhile back that I needed the Christmas present called site C by December 20th so I can get back to work on the construction site. And he delivered, him and the Minister of Energy and Aboriginal Affairs Minister. I've been in consultations with them over the past six weeks here so everything's looking good.

SARAH PENTON: How does the McLeod Lake Indian Band stand to benefit from this project?

HC: Well, we have an impact benefits agreement with the government that includes cash as well as some land and contracting opportunities. And basically, if the project would have gone away it would negated everything, so everything would have been put on the floor and we would have received nothing. Now that it's approved we're going to benefit in terms of procurement contracting and the land the land is back on appeal and the other revenues that we're negotiating, renegotiating now because of the new slate on the horizon. So I think we're going to make some agreements that are going to benefit the nation.

SP: You called this a part of economic reconciliation. Can you explain that to me?

HC: Yeah, I think it's one of the ways in which they can remediate past grievances and stuff, you know, economically there's only one way to do it and that's with money and contracting. So that's one form of righting the wrongs in the past.

SP: Do you have a sense of a dollar figure, just how much your community stands to gain?

HC: I can say right now, we're in confidential negotiations right now. But I'd say it's nine figures, minimum.

SP: How does it affect relations with other First Nations leaders? I know West Moberly Chief Roland Wilson has said the project will render the valley useless. What do you say to other Indigenous leaders?

HC: Well, you know, it’s either going to happen or it’s not going to happen. I saw the writing on the wall a long time ago when I got in as chief, that this project is too important for the government to shoot it down. And other First Nations leaders are still given the opportunity to get onboard. If not, then get out of the way. Let us go to work.

SP: Harley Chingee, chief of McLeod Lake Indian Band, speaking with the CBC's Sarah Penton on the Radio West program yesterday.

[Music: Electric Guitar Strums]

Archive: Boxing Review

JD: This past summer Tim Hague stepped into the ring. Mr. Hague was best known as a mixed martial arts fighter, but on June 16th in Edmonton he was in the ring to box. Two days later he was dead, killed by a traumatic brain injury sustained in that fight. Today an independent report into his death was released. The report found that some of the Edmonton Combative Sports Commission's policies were not followed, and it makes 18 recommendations to strengthen oversight of combat sports and to improve fighter safety. Among those recommendations, tougher rules for medical suspensions and an anonymous tip line for those who have concerns about the health of a fighter. In the days after Mr. Hague's death, we spoke with Adam Braidwood who is Mr. Hague's opponent in that fatal match. Here he is describing the moments after the fight. This is from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

ADAM BRAIDWOOD: Like I said, I did a little celebration. It was pretty half-hearted and I waited on my knees for him to move and I saw him laying there lifeless and I knew. I went helped him up and I carried him to the corner and, you know, I said something to him, he said something to me and I could just see he was not all there. He was slumped over and then he pulled me back and actually see said something else when I walked away, and you know, I just, I saw and I knew.

CO: And you’re at a moment when you just won a fight. You wanted to celebrate, it’s a moment of victory. How were you feeling when you sensed what had happened to him?

AB: You know it was difficult. Tim was my friend and, you know, obviously we're not close friends but it's all a brotherhood and sisterhood in this sport. And when you see somebody fall like that and you see somebody struggling to hold onto life like that it's a pretty sinking feeling in your heart. And, you know, my heart goes out to his family.

CO: Should he have been in the ring with you?

AB: That's not for me to say. It's easy for people who do not fight or who are not involved in the business to say he should have been in there, this and that. Tim wanted to fight, he's a fighter. He has over 30 fights experience, he was actively training, he was in good shape and it does not matter how healthy you are, how many concussions you have, what sanctioning body you go through, who you train with. It doesn't matter how healthy you are, if you get hit hard enough and fall hard enough you can die in this sport, and that's just the way it is. He wanted the fight and if a fight had been stopped early in the first round or in the corner Tim would have asked for another fight with me because that's how he is. He wanted to win that fight and he was still fighting right to the end.

JD: From our archives, from June that was Boxer Adam Braidwood. Today an independent report into the death of fighter Tim Hague was released in Edmonton. It makes 18 recommendations to hopefully improve safety in combat sports.

[Music: Sombre Guitar]

Polar Bear Hunt

JD: One video of a polar bear has generated hundreds of pages of online debate. You have likely seen it by now. It is an amaciated bear struggling to walk on the summer tundra. The video was put up by the environmental organization SeaLegacy, and on their website the caption reads: “This is the face of climate change.” But this week we spoke to an Inuit polar bear monitor who questioned whether it was right to connect the images of this bear to climate change. Leo Ikakhik said that the bear was likely sick and that its plight may have had nothing to do with a warming climate. And then on Tuesday one of the founders of SeaLegacy, Christina Mittermeier, wrote us an email firing back at Mr. Ikakhik and other Inuit who questioned the video. She wrote in part quote “Inuit people make a lot of money from polar bear trophy hunting. Of course it is in their best interest to say the polar bears are happy and healthy and that climate change is a joke, because otherwise their quota might be reduced.” Unquote. That response did not sit well with Iqaluit Mayor Madeleine Redfern, who has studied the impact of polar bear hunting on the Nunavut Inuit. We reached Mayor Redfern in Ottawa.

CO: Mayor Redfern, what do you think of Christina Mittermeier’s response to our coverage?

MAYOR MADELEINE REDFERN: I think her response is racist and factually untrue. Inuit do hunt polar bears. The vast majority is for food and very few bears are hunted for sport hunts and provide valuable income for the families and the community. And the meat is given back to the community.

CO: Well, let's just go through some of the things that she wrote to us in response to our coverage. She writes that Inuit people make a lot of money from polar bear hunting, is that the case?

MR: Well, very few bears are actually allocated for sport hunts, less than 10 per cent. So in fact Inuit forego a lot of revenue because they actually hunt the bears themselves. Out of approximately, the on average, $30,000 for a bear hunt, the Inuit communities receive approximately 75 per cent of that income and it goes to guiding fees, women who sow the closing and of a lot of that money actually goes to buy new snowmobiles or hunting gear, which of course, the hunters year round in order to feed their families.

CO: When you say 10 per cent, 10 per cent of what, of all the bears that are killed?

MR: So 10 per cent of the quota that has been assigned. We have a very robust quota system in so much as that a tiny percentage of the bears are allowed to be hunted and it’s deemed sustainable by the government and the scientists.

CO: The other 90 per cent of bears in the hunt, what are they used for?

MR: The primary purpose for polar bear hunting is for food. The reality is, our hundred-mile diet is very different to the Arctic. We eat whale, seals, polar bear,s fish. I mean the reality is that is part of our part of our food, it’s part of our culture and it's very nutritious.

CO: Another point that she makes in relation to you motivation. She says that “it's in your best interest to say to claim that polar bears are healthy and that climate change is a joke. Otherwise the hunting quota will be reduced.”

MR: Well two things I want to say right off the bat. Inuit know climate change is happening, we are not climate change deniers. In fact, we are feeling it more than anyone else. The quotas are set by the government. Reality is that the vast majority of bears are doing very well. In Canada, and especially in Nunavut, they’re well-studied. The data has shown, time and time again, that there are more bears as the studies are done, the studies are coming back saying yes there are more bears.

CO: And they say, in their literature, they say they don't know why this bear is in this condition but they say that this headline is the face of climate change. They said that people were criticizing them for not attempting to intervene and feed the bear. What would people in the Arctic, what would you or anyone else in the Inuit community, what would they have done had they come across this bear in the summer?

MR: Well, the humane thing would have been to put the bear down, to end its suffering and to have brought the bear back to the community and given it to the conservation officer and they would have sent samples of the bear or the whole bear south to actually have been studied to understand why that bear was that in that condition.

CO: Is this a missed opportunity to find out what exactly killed this bear?

MR: Absolutely and that's why, actually, every bear that is harvested by Inuit, samples are taken from that bear given to the wildlife officer, and that provides valuable data in the overall research of polar bears, to understand their health, their age, their condition and so that is part of our Inuit commitment to overall polar bear research.

CO: Going back to this letter that we were sent by SeaLegacy they said that they are suspicious of those — meaning you — who stand to profit from the bears and bear hunts and so they don't trust your analysis that the bear population where you are might be healthy. What do you say to SeaLegacy?

MR: Well, then they’re also discounting all the research, the scientific research that is actually done on polar bears. Our polar bear populations have been steadily increasing and stabilizing. Inuit live in polar bear country. We don't just have short periods of studying. There is good data out there and it's facts first, rather than the emotional propaganda and manipulation of organizations like SeaLegacy, who themselves are profiting from their information.

CO: In what way is SeaLegacy profiting?

MR: Well, I'm sure that they're getting lots of donations as a result of that video. These organizations make it a business to collect those donations to perpetuate their own organization’s activists.

CO: Mayor Redfern, I appreciate speaking with you, thank you.

MR: Thank you.

JD: Madeline Redfern is the mayor of Iqaluit, Nunavut. We reached her in Ottawa. And we did receive another email from Christina Mittermeier from SeaLegacy today, and Ms. Mittermeier wrote in part quote “I respect the traditional knowledge of the Inuit and I feel empathy for what their world will look like if climate change continues unchecked. My intention was never to speak against the Inuit or their traditions, but to speak for polar wildlife, especially polar bears. We have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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December 14, 2017 episode transcript

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