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The AIH Transcript for November 29, 2017

Hosts: and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight

CO: From tweet-storm to tweet-hurricane. After US President Donald Trump shares anti-Muslim videos posted by a far right leader in the UK, British politicians signal their disgust with the irresponsible Twitter tantrum.

JD: A toxic figures toxic end. When his sentence for war crimes is upheld by the International Criminal Court, a former Bosnian-Croat decries the conviction, drinks poison, and dies hours later.

CO: Host Busters Part 1. The creator and long-time presenter of “A Prairie Home Companion” dismisses the allegations of “inappropriate behavior”. But today, Minnesota Public Radio dismissed him.

JD: Host Busters Part 2. NBC fires “Today Show” anchor Matt Lauer, after astonishing allegations of sexual harassment and predatory behavior. And in that context, some of his old interviews take on new meaning.

CO: Facelift. The giant photos in a public art installation in Calgary allegedly depicted a “cross-section” of actual Calgarians, but it turns out they picked the faces of British comedians, swiped from their headshots.

JD: And… hay there spores fans. After months of searching for an elusive mould required for making blue cheese, a New Zealand cheesemaker discovers the fungus he needs was right under horse nose —in a wet hay-bale.

JD: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that's glad he went from desperate to grasping at straw.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Trump tweets: Labour MP, Garrison Keillor, New Zealand blue cheese

Trump tweets: Labour MP

Guest: Stephen Doughty

JD: It seemed to be just another typical morning Twitter-storm for Donald Trump. But a few of today's tweets proved even more inflammatory than usual. President Trump retweeted three disturbing, anti-Muslim videos posted by far-right UK leader Jayda Fransen, who was charged and convicted last year of, quote, "religious aggravated harassment" against a Muslim woman. The videos, which are unverified, claim to portray Muslims carrying out acts of violence. Here's how White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders responded to reporters today.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS: Whether it's a real video, the threat is real, and that is what the president is talking about. That's what the president is focused on is dealing with those real threats. And those are real no matter how you look at it. Look, I'm not talking about the nature of the video. I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. The threat is real, and that's what the president is talking about.

JD: President Trump's tweets sparked a very strong reaction in the UK. The office of British Prime Minister Theresa May said in a statement, quote, "It is wrong for the president to have done this." And earlier today, British Labour MPs tried to raise the issue in Westminster. Stephen Doughty is a Labour Party MP. We reached him earlier in London.

CO: Mr. Doughty, moments ago in British parliament, you raised the issue of U.S. President Donald Trump's tweets. What did you say?

STEPHEN DOUGHTY: Well, I was raising concerns about the tweets. This isn't just a regular sort of Donald Trump Twitter-storm. This is him sharing content from a well-known far-right extremist group in the U.K. And from the account of an individual who is, in fact, being convicted for religious harassment, and also is currently waiting for the court date, and having been charged with serious offenses. This is a very serious matter. And I wanted to make sure that the home secretary, our interior minister, heard that. And that she and the prime minister and others will take tough action against this organization, but also condemn Donald Trump's actions in the strongest terms.

CO: This woman, Jayda Fransen, is no stranger to people in Great Britain, nor is the organization that she is the deputy of, Britain First. So people clearly in the House of Commons would have known that?

SD: Absolutely, and I think what makes it all the more extraordinary from my perspective is that for the president of the United States to be retweeting content from her — which hasn't even been verified, let alone whether or not he should be appearing to endorse such an organization — I think will be of concern to members across the House.

CO: Can you just recapture what is in these three tweets that lead you to make these statements? For people who didn't see them or don't want to look at them, what's the content of these tweets?

SD: Well, it's extremely inflammatory material. And you know who knows whether it's true or not? It's quite upsetting material in some parts. And in some ways what is actually in them is not the issue. It’s how they're being used. These are being shared deliberately by a far-right organization attempting to demonize all Muslims in the UK and globally. And, as I said, they've been shared by an individual who has already been convicted, after harassing a Muslim mother of four in Luton last year. And, as I said, she's facing further charges, and a court date in December, having allegedly been involved in further incidents at a rally in Belfast in Northern Ireland in recent weeks.

CO: The news agency BuzzFeed has actually found out the origins of these videos, or tied to. One of them that Mr. Trump retweeted as being evidence of a Muslim beating up a Dutch boy. The people involved with that were not immigrants, they're not Muslims. The other one of a man being thrown from a rooftop that is being treated as being Muslims beating up somebody, apparently it was an incident that happened in Egypt, and a person is serving time for that — one man. And the other one, which is the video showing a Virgin Mary statue being destroyed. And no one seems to know the origin of that. And there's no context in the video. Can you tell us about the woman who posted these, Jayda Fransen?

SD: Well, she's an extremely unpleasant individual. And she represents an extremely unpleasant far-right organization called Britain First, which, personally, I believe should be prescribed and banned. We recently took steps to ban another similar far-right organization called National Action here in the UK. And I think for your listeners to be aware and very shocking for me personally was my colleague Jo Cox, who was a British MP who was tragically murdered last year, who was a good friend of mine personally. And it was alleged that her attacker chanted out this phrase Britain First when committing atrocities against her. And I think that's what concerns people here the most. This is an organization that will deliberately take images and reports, whether or not they are true or not, and use them to attempt to demonize the whole of the Islamic faith, and also all Muslims in the UK. And she’s previously described Islam as “a cancer”. She’s previously claimed that all Muslim men coming to the UK are coming here to rape women. You know these are extraordinary inflammatory comments. And I think another crucial question here is what are the social media companies doing about this? And the fact is that Twitter are allowing this woman to have an account, even though she's a convicted criminal facing further criminal proceedings. And they've given her one of those verified ticks, which kind of implies that somebody is a legitimate source of information on the platform. And I've been in contact with Twitter as well today to ask how on earth they can be allowing her to continue spreading this sort of hateful and inflammatory information.

CO: It doesn't seem that Mr. Trump was following Jayda Fransen, but Ann Coulter, another person in the United States, apparently was retweeting the same material. That’s may be where he got it from. What have you heard back from Twitter or from YouTube about this material being in their programs?

SD: Well, I've yet to hear back from Twitter. It's not the first time that I've raised concerns with them about content on their platform. Indeed, I met with one of their senior representatives just a few weeks ago, and we've actually had a series of hearings about whether online companies are doing enough to remove hate speech and violence from their platforms? I simply don't think they are. And this is just another example of how something that's being said on that platform can have a global impact and a global effect. When the president of the United States shares that kind of information, you know whether it came to Ann Coulter or whoever else, it doesn't really matter. The fact is that he is sharing that with millions of people globally, and appearing to give his endorsement to it.

CO: What do you want Britain to do? Because we're hearing today that Donald Trump, though Downing Street is saying that he was wrong to retweet these, that there are no plans to cancel or postpone Mr. Trump’s state visit. So what do you think should be the reaction to this?

SD: Well, I think the government needs to come out and categorically condemn his actions, and, indeed, of course, of Britain First. And I think they need to be looking very closely at whether or not that organization should be prescribed as I said. But I do think that they should cancel the plans for a state visit. I’ve long argued this. I think it's extraordinarily premature of Prime Minister Theresa May to have offered that in Donald Trump’s first few weeks in office. We here in Parliament had a cross-party motion to deny Donald Trump the right of making a state address to both Houses of Parliament. And it's very clear he will not be welcomed in Westminster at Parliament. I don't think we should, of course, cut off contact entirely with the president. He represents one of our closest allies. But you know the president I believe is acting entirely wrongly in this situation. And the prime minister needs to be very clear about it.

CO: Mr. Doughty, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SD: My pleasure.

JD: Stephen Doughty is a UK Labour Party MP. We reached him earlier today in London. And we did reach out to Twitter for a response to this story. They had no comment. For more on the reaction to President Trump's retweets, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Orchestral]

Garrison Keillor

Guest: Neal Justin

JD: The list just keeps getting longer. This morning, Minnesota Public Radio announced that it was firing Garrison Keillor. The broadcaster cited allegations that the retired host and creator of "A Prairie Home Companion" had behaved inappropriately with a woman he employed. Mr. Keillor had announced the news himself a little earlier. And then he followed up in an email, insisting that he'd simply made an innocent mistake with a woman he considered a friend, until her lawyer called. Neal Justin is the reporter who got that email. Mr. Justin covers media stories for the Minneapolis Star Tribune. We reached him in Minneapolis.

CO: Neal, what does Garrison Keillor say happened between himself and this woman?

NEIL JUSTIN: Well, based on the email exchange we had this afternoon, he says that he was consoling an employee, put his hand on her back — bare back — when he realized that she was uncomfortable with that, he said that she recoiled. He said he immediately removed it. That he apologized later. And she said that she accepted his apology. He thought the incident was over, until he heard from her lawyer. We don't have a timeframe for this, however.

CO: Was there more to it than that? Than just touching, and how was it that her back was bare?

NJ: Yeah, we don't know if there's more to it or not? This is just Garrison's version. We don't know the details of why MPR fired him. We do know that they had conducted an investigation, and they've not got into details about what they found in that investigation, so one has to assume that there is more to it, at least from their end. Garrison has said that they have a different version of events.

CO: Do we know who the woman is and what her version is?

NJ: We don't. We know that he worked with her when he was producing “Prairie Home Companion”, but we don't have a name. We don't have a title. We've asked Garrison, he said it's not his place to share that name or names, and MPR has not offered up that information either.

CO: And has she in any way offered another version of what happened?

NJ: We assume that she has another version that she told to Minnesota Public Radio and the distributor the show. We just don’t know what that is. I have to assume that there's more to her version than what Garrison shared with us. But at this point, we don't know what that is.

CO: Are there any other women who have come forward that you know of?

NJ: Not that I know of yet, but this is still a pretty fresh story here. So you know we'll see. As you know in tracking these things, one allegation can very often lead to more.

CO: Now the statement from Minnesota Public Radio regarding Garrison Keillor and “A Prairie Home Companion” as it’s titled, it says that MPR was notified last month of allegations — that would be in October — and that they had been doing their review consulting with the board. So this has been going on for some weeks and now, in addition to that, they say they retained an outside law firm to do an independent investigation of the allegations. What does that tell you that they have actually been looking at this for so long?

NJ: Well, it tells you they're taking it very seriously. You have to remember even though Garrison Keillor retired from “Prairie Home Companion” a year ago, he's still just about the biggest name the state has. And to the rest of the world, he represents, rightly or wrongly, what Minnesota is, and what Minnesotans sense of humour is like. A lot of Minnesotans will cringe at that. But that's how we're perceived: as folks that live in his fictional Lake Wobegon. So you have to be very, very careful with this kind of thing. He helped build Minnesota Public Radio, which is a huge entity. They distribute a lot of big shows, including “Marketplace” and “Splendid Table”. And Garrison was instrumental in building that empire. It's a very big deal to not only let go of beloved figure, but also to cut ties with “Prairie Home”, even saying that they won't run repeats of Garrison when he was host. Those repeats are big money-makers for them. So they’re not doing this lightly.

CO: Now this came just days after Garrison Keillor put out a column titled “Making Peace With Mistakes of the Past”, in which he laments what's happened to Minnesota Senator Al Franken, and suggests that Mr. Franken was just being funny. And that his accuser, who he calls Ms. Tweeden, was in on the joke. What do you make of that?

NJ: I don't know if it's a coincidence or whether he saw this coming, and you could read into that I suppose that he was getting out ahead of the game and defending himself. But those comments that he made had already stirred up a hornet's nest before he announced he had been fired.

CO: Like what? What for instance was the reaction to it?

NJ: Well, people thought that he was going too easy on the senator. That Al Franken has been more apologetic than Garrison was. It was pretty strong language. And you know there’s a couple of different versions of it. The version that ran in The Washington Post is taking some stuff out of it if you take a look at it. So there are people who are troubled by it. And this is only going to add to it.

CO: Just a larger question about what's happening at NPR, where there is another executive has left amid sexual harassment allegations just yesterday. It’s David Sweeny, and that's in addition to Michael Oreskes, chief news editor, who left some weeks ago. And today, it’s Garrison Keillor at MPR. I mean people might presume public broadcasting is less susceptible to these kinds of things. Do you think that it's something that one should explore within the organization?

NJ: I think there is no such thing as unsusceptible. I think what we've learned in the last month or so if we didn't know it before, and I think we really didn't really fully embrace, is that it doesn't matter what your political stripe is. It doesn't matter what field you’re in. Men in power are capable of this kind of action.

CO: You point out that Mr. Keillor is quite a figure, not just in Minnesota and in the United States. In Canada, “Prairie Home Companion” is very famous. How are people in Minnesota responding to this news?

NJ: It's been a rough day. I mean I've been stuck at the desk trying to track down information, and you know with the news of Matt Lauer's firing as well, and this is a state that's still trying to come to grips with Al Franken and the allegations and his subsequent apology. It's sort of hard to gauge. I mean I don't want to say we're numb to it, we're certainly not numb to it, but it can sometimes seem that way with Minnesotans because we don't show our emotions as generously as perhaps other regions of the country.

CO: Interesting. We'll be following your coverage on this, Neal. Thank you.

NJ: Thank you.

JD: Neal Justin is the media reporter for the Minneapolis Star Tribune. We reached him in Minneapolis. As Mr. Justin referenced there, today's other big story is, of course, Matt Lauer. We'll have more on that coming up later in the show, including some past-interviews by the former "Today" host, which have taken on new meaning, after a string of sexual harassment allegations. We'll hear Matt Lauer's interviews with Anne Hathaway and Bill O'Reilly.

[Music: Rock]

New Zealand blue cheese

Guest: Simon Berry

JD: Next time you really want to impress your local cheesemonger, don't ask for the Pecorino Toscano, or the Robiola Piemonte, or the Lindsay Bandaged Goat Cheddar. Instead, knowingly inquire as to whether they happen to stock New Zealand Blue — the first domestic blue ever crafted in that country. Simon Berry is the CEO of Whitestone Cheese, who pioneered that last creation after a months-long odyssey. We reached Mr. Berry in Omaru, New Zealand.

CO: Simon, what made you go on this quest to make New Zealand blue cheese?

SIMON BERRY: We, originally, years ago, went the French Roquefort Caves in the South of France and saw the original blue cheese cheese was made sitting in limestone caves. And after some discussions here with our head cheesemaker we realized that we had similar limestone caves in our backyard in an environment here. So we thought well if I can grow mould over there in limestone caves, we've got limestone caves here too, and we'll go and see if we can find our own.

CO: Now, this is this kind of mould this is Penicillium roqueforti you need, right?

SB: Yeah, that's right. So that’s blue mould that's placed into blue cheese. And hence the name, roqueforti is named after the Roquefort regions of South of France.

CO: Did you have success with the caves? With the limestone caves giving you mould?

SB: We didn't have any immediate success. And we went to several locations. We were going out after making cheese in the afternoons. And some of the boys would shoot out on a spare weekend — on a Saturday. You know having to explain to farmers was it OK if we go and swab some caves? They were you know excited about it, or interested with it. But we had no success.

CO: Did you tell them you're looking for mould in their caves?

SB: Yeah, yeah, yeah looking for mould, and explained the story, and they were interested in it. And then a story was in the local newspaper about it. And then we started getting calls, and we still do get calls from farmers calling up saying hey, I’ve got a cave here for you guys to try. So we're just waiting on some more lab results from one week or two weeks ago that was very promising. It had water running through it, which is what you need for mould growth is water and oxygen.

CO: Where did you finally find some mould that worked?

SB: We got a mark-up at our lab in Christchurch up the road. We were sending the swabs. He called almost six weeks ago, and said a roqueforti has come in from some hay.

CO: From hay? Like a bale of hay?

SB: Bales of hay. So a biodynamic beef farmer was opening up his hay, and he had some funky-looking mould in there. And he was a bit nervous about feeding it to his calves. So he sent a sample of the hay off to the lab that we use, saying can you just check that for toxicity. It came back clear for toxicity, but also I came back with roqueforti in there. So the lab rang us saying you’ll never guess what! Look what we found!

CO: Eureka! This is exactly what you were looking for?

SB: Yeah, yeah it was fascinating. So he isolated the strain. We didn't want to bring it into the factory straight away either. So we did a single cheese, the cheesemaker did it at home, and then he brought it in and it just looked beautiful. We said hey, I think we’re onto a winner here.

CO: And is it like perfect, good, stinky blue cheese?

SB: It doesn't smell too bad. It smells pretty good. The flavour is quite mild, but it's got a complex finish to it. We call it. It almost has a hint of raw mushroom is what I got out of it on the first taste. And it looks great. Beautiful looking mould, yeah.

CO: Well, I understand that when cheese makers in different countries want to make blue cheese, they get their mould directly from France?

SB: Yeah, that's right. So they get it from the mother strain from the Roquefort Caves from France. The old story is that a French Shepard was traveling with some cheese, and he was going over a point where he was coming back later. So he stashed the cheese into a cave in the ground. Came back a few weeks later, and had blue mould on it. He ate it and it tasted good. And that's the story of the Roquefort Caves where that strain comes from, so for us to find the environment here, yeah, great discovery.

CO: But why not just go to the one in France?

SB: well, we already do that. But we wanted a New Zealand one. Because we go hang on, if I can do it out there, we can have a different tasting one from down here.

CO: I wonder how many cheese discoveries were made that weren't successful. Somebody died eating something, and we didn't get that cheese. For all the ones that are good. I wonder how many we lost.

SB: Many were lost over the years where it was put down to something, and it was some rouge piece of cheese that someone ate. The other one is yeast. We've actually found some yeast from our caves that we can use in food. And we've got those sort of banked away in the lab, which is another bacteria that can be applied to food or wine or beer. And they have their own floral characteristics.

CO: And the farmer whose hay this came from, what is he saying about all this?

SB: Oh, he's really excited, yeah. He's a beef farmer, and we’ve named the first cheese after it. We’re going to keep sending him cheese. He’s a biodynamic guy, and he’s right into healthy practice. But he’s a good, sustainable farmer, and a very nice guy. So we're keeping him in the lop, and he’s excited by it.

CO: And what's the perfect pairing?

SB: Yeah, I'd say a white wine. Because it's a subtle flavour, we're doing the cheese to be subtle as well. So it's not overpowering. Or a light lager beer as well, something that's quite light because it's a delicate flavour.

CO: I'm sure you're talking about a New Zealand white?

SB: Yes, of course. A lovely sav blanc, yeah.

CO: Simon, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

SB: Well, thanks for the call. OK, thanks, Carol.

CO: Bye.

SB: Bye.

JD: Simon Berry is the CEO of Whitestone Cheese. We reached him in Oamaru, New Zealand.

Back To Top »

Part 2: War criminal suicide, Calgary public art

War criminal suicide

Guest: Jasmina Demirovic

JD: Slobodan Praljak was a Bosnian-Croat military commander. Today, at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, he lost his appeal against his 20-year-sentence for war crimes. As the verdict was read, he began to yell. And then he took a swig from a small vial. The judge tried to stop him. Then someone translated Mr. Praljak's response:

SOUNDCLIP

JUDGE: Stop please, please sit down.

SLOBODAN PRALJAK: [Speaking in a foreign language]

TRANSLATOR: I have taken poison.

JD: Mr. Praljak died today, after drinking poison to protest his conviction. Jasmina Demirovic was in the courtroom when it happened. She's a producer with the Balkan news channel, N1. We reached Jasmina Demirovic in The Hague.

CO: Jasmina, at what point did you realize that something was seriously wrong in the courtroom today?

JASMINA DEMIROVIC: Well, it wasn't clear what is actually happening at the time. It became clear when he said I am not a war criminal, I just too poison. Before that, it was really unclear what is happening. Some people even thought he was toasting after he heard his own verdict. But, as I said, suddenly, it was very clear that something bad is happening. The judge tried to stop him. We also heard his lawyer, who confirmed that he took poison. At that time, it was a shock. No one could possibly imagine that something like that could happen in a courtroom. The courtroom actually became, by the end of the day, a crime scene. The big question now everyone is asking actually how could he possibly have poison with him? He came from detention.

CO: Let’s just go back to what we actually see happening because it's extremely distressing and dramatic on TV. He's there — you can see him on the ICTY television screen — what did you see? What does he do?

JD: Well, we notice that something is happening when he raised his voice because it is out of the ordinary. He said I am not a war criminal. I don't accept this verdict. At that point, he just took a small glass — some kind of glass — he drank it. No one could possibly imagine that it is actually poison, as I said, because it was something that you couldn't possibly imagine. But after he drank it, in his own words, he said I just took poison. The judge was yelling stop, sit down. He sat on his chair. Witnesses said that you could see that he was not feeling OK, but, at that time, the public was excluded. We couldn't see what was happening. Next, the lawyers who were present in the courtroom said that it was very dramatic. Medical staff came in. They even said that they were trying to re-animate him, to bring him to life. We were waiting for some kind of confirmation of what is happening actually. Is he still alive? We had no idea. An hour later, we saw the ambulance going out. We assume that he's being taken to some hospital, and soon, we got confirmation that he died.

CO: This was a hearing, this is an appeals hearing. He was one of six Bosnian-Croats who were in the appeals hearing finding out if their prison sentences would be upheld? And his was, his 20-year sentence was upheld. Can you tell us who was Slobodan Praljiak? What had he been convicted for?

JD: Of course, but just let me say one thing before that, he came to court in 2004. His sentence is 20 years of prison. Everyone is actually wondering here in The Hague why he did such a thing because after two-thirds of the sentence, he could go out? So basically he should be out in a few years. So that is the big question? Slobodan Praljiak is a Croatian citizen. He was in the Ministry of Defense in Croatia. But during the war, he sent to Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was a military general. He had a commanding power over the military of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was sentenced today for 20 years for crimes committed in eight municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina, during a two-and-a-half-year long conflict. And that is it.

CO: These six men who were at the appeals hearing today, one of whom was Slobodan Prajilak, at the same time, in Croatia, people were watching this very closely, weren’t they? They had suspended Parliament just to watch this very dramatic moment. This is an important case — important time — for Croatia. How are people responding to this suicide?

JD: Well disbelief definitely. Everyone is shocked. Even now, everyone is saying that they couldn't possibly believe he's actually dead. Later today, we even saw a few people coming to The Hague tribunal lighting candles. They put flowers there to pay their respects. I mean it was huge news here in the Balkans today. Not just in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina as well. The best word would be shock. I don't know a better word than that — disbelief and shock.

CO: At the same time, there were people who were the victims of the crimes he was convicted. What are you hearing from inside of Bosnia about the reaction to this?

JD: Yes, some of the people who I spoke to they said he was a coward to do something like this. They say that it would have been better if he stayed alive to face the verdict, to face his crimes, and what he has done during the war. Otherwise the victims are very happy with today's verdict.

CO: Because these sentences have been upheld. Now, at the same time, we have seen that the International Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia in the past there have been suicides, have there not? How is it that the ICTY wasn't better prepared for something like this?

JD: Well, it's hard to say. First of all, because this suicide happened in the courtroom during the judge saying the sentence, so it was definitely something that no one could believe that could possibly happen. The investigation is now open. There are some few questions — major questions — that need to be answered. It's hard to say, but definitely the lawyers also said that something like this shouldn't have happened for anyone in the courtroom to be able to do this or something like that. So, as I said, the investigation is open, and we will get those answers hopefully soon.

CO: Jasmina, I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

JD: Thank you.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Jasmina Demirovic is a producer with the Balkan news channel, N1. We reached her in The Hague.

[Music: Cultural]

Matt Lauer

JD: For years, loyal viewers watched him every morning on NBC’s “The Today Show”. But Matt Lauer was not there today, and he will not be there tomorrow either. This afternoon, Variety published multiple allegations of sexual harassment made by women against Mr. Lauer. The magazine says it conducted a two-month-long investigation, and spoke with dozens of current and former NBC employees. Among many other revelations, the writers reveal that Mr. Lauer's office was, quote, "in a secluded space, and he had a button under his desk that allowed him to lock his door from the inside without getting up." Unquote. Variety published its article after Mr. Lauer was fired from NBC this morning, following a complaint of "inappropriate sexual behaviour" by a colleague. Soon after the firing, Mr. Lauer's co-anchor, Savannah Guthrie, addressed the allegations on “The Today Show”. She was joined by fellow anchor Hoda Kotb. Here's a clip:

SOUNDCLIP

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE: We just learned this moments ago, just this morning. As I'm sure you can imagine, we are devastated, and we are still processing all of this. And I will tell you right now we do not know more than what I just shared with you. But we will be covering the story, as reporters, as journalists, I'm sure we will be learning more details in the hours and days to come. And we promise we will share that with you. And Hoda, I mean. You know for the moment all we can say is that we are heartbroken. I'm heartbroken for Matt, he is my dear, dear friend and my partner, and he is beloved by many, many people here. And I'm heartbroken for the brave colleague who came forward to tell her story, and any other women who have their own stories to tell. And we are grappling with a dilemma that so many people have faced these past few weeks. How do you reconcile your love for someone with the revelation that they have behaved badly? And I don't know the answer to that. But I do know that this reckoning that so many organizations have been going through is important. It's long overdue, and it must result in workplaces where all women — all people — feel safe and respected. As painful as it is, this moment in our culture, and this change had to happen.

HODA KOTB: Yeah, it did. This is a very tough morning for both of us. I've known Matt for 15 years, and I've loved him as a friend and as a colleague. And again, just like you were saying, Savannah. It's hard to reconcile what we are hearing with the man who we know, who walks in this building every single day. We were both woken up with the news kind of pre-dawn, and we're trying to process it, and trying to make sense of it, and it will take some time for that.

SG: We're processing it with all of you at home. We promise to be transparent and be straightforward and continue this important conversation.

HK: Absolutely.

JD: That was NBC “Today Show” hosts Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Kotb, speaking earlier today about Matt Lauer. Since the allegations came out this morning, some news outlets have been pointing to an interview Mr. Lauer did with actor Anne Hathaway a few years ago, which attracted some criticism at the time. Ms. Hathaway was promoting her film "Les Miserables". And not long before her appearance on "The Today Show", paparazzi had taken a photograph looking up Ms. Hathaway's skirt. Here's how Matt Lauer started that interview.

SOUNDCLIP

MATT LAUER: Anne HATAWAY, good morning, nice to see you.

ANNE HATHAWAY: Morning, Matt.

ML: Seen a lot of you lately.

AH: Sorry about that.

ML: You were?

AH: I'd be happy to stay home, but the film.

ML: Let's just get it out of the way; you had a little wardrobe malfunction the other night. What's the lesson learned from something like that? Other than that you keep smiling, which you always do?

AH: Well, it was, obviously, an unfortunate incident. I think it kind of made me sad. On two accounts: one was that, I was very sad that we live in an age when someone takes a picture of another person in a vulnerable moment, and rather than delete it, and do the decent thing, sells it. And I'm sorry that we live in a culture that commodified sexuality of unwilling participants, which brings us back to “Les Mis” because that’s who the character is. She is someone who is forced to sell sex to benefit her child because she has nothing, and there's no social safety net. Yeah, so let's get back to “Les Mis”.

ML: That’s one of the most creative turns of a question I have ever heard. And I’m going to take it at that. That's fine.

JD: Matt Lauer interviewing actor Anne Hathaway in 2012. Another interview that's re-surfaced today is from earlier this year: Mr. Lauer’s interview with Bill O'Reilly, who was fired from Fox News following sexual misconduct allegations against him, which he has denied.

SOUNDCLIP

BILL O’REILLY: But the collateral damage of these lawsuits, the press frenzy, every allegation is a conviction. Every allegation in this area is a conviction. They don't look for the truth.

ML: But think about those five women, and what they did. They came forward and filed complaints against the biggest star at the network they worked at. Think of how intimidating that must have been. How nerve wracking that must have been. Doesn't that tell you how strongly they felt about the way they were treated by you?

BO: Well, it’s not just me. Those lawsuits involve many other people, not just me.

JD: That was now-fired NBC “Today Show” anchor Matt Lauer, speaking with former Fox News host Bill O'Reilly. As we went to air, according to The Associated Press, Mr. Lauer and his agent have not returned messages for comment.

[Music: Electronic]

Calgary public art

Guest:

JD: Massive six-by-seven foot headshots line the walls of an underpass in downtown Calgary. There are twenty of them, overlaid with short phrases like "I live here" and "I walk to work". They're part of a 20,000-dollar art installation by Derek Besant, called "Snapshots". Photographs are striking on their own, more so because Mr. Besant says they're all photos of pedestrians he himself encountered in that underpass, except they're not. They're photos of several British comedians. And they were used without those comedians' knowledge or permission. The City of Calgary is now taking down the installation, after a comedian named Bisha K. Ali raised concerns. We reached Ms. Ali in London.

CO: Bisha, how did you first discover that your face was in an art installation in Calgary?

BISHA ALI: A friend of mine who I've known for about 10 years or so was moving walking through the city, walking through an underpass, and he saw a giant my face looking back at him. And he took a photograph and sent it to me. Now, we haven't spoken in quite a few years actually. And he said Bisha, I know have spoken in a while, and this is out of the blue. But I've just seen your face. I'm convinced that it’s you, and he sent me a picture. So that's how I first discovered I was up on your streets.

CO: Snd the photos in this instillation they're quite blurred, and there’s text on top of them. How clear was it that this was actually you?

BA: I think it was fairly clear because a friend who I haven't seen in a long time instantly recognized me. That was one kind of hint. And then when I kind of look at it in more detail and compared it to the headshot that I think it was taken from, you can see quite clearly my hairline of my neckline kind of match up if you turn my original photo and give it a mirror flip. So that matched up really clearly. My facial expression you can kind of make out, which is a really distinct one, specifically for my head shot. Once you put them side-by-side it’s very clear.

CO: I’m going to get to that in a moment. But you, obviously, did not contribute this photo to the exhibit. But you said that you can recognize the photo that's being used. Did the photographer contribute it to the exhibit?

BA: Well, I know the photographer quite well. She's a colleague of mine, and she’s a comedian in her own right. She is a very successful comedian here. And I'm fairly sure she would have come and contacted me. And since this all kicked off, we’ve had a conversation about it. No, she certainly was not contacted to be asked permission for using the photograph.

CO: So there is no connection with the photos there. But now the next stage is that other people are recognizable as associates of yours. Can you tell us what other faces you know are on the walls in Calgary?

BA: Certainly, so I looked up the rest of the installation and what it looked like. And that's when I started seeing my colleagues. And I wondered if I was projecting my own knowledge of my friends onto them. So one in particular was Sophie Hagen, I recently supported her on tour here in the UK. She’s been going to different cities and doing her show, and I'm supporting act. So I spent a lot of time with her. I know what her face looks. I know what that poster looks like. So when I saw her, I was absolutely sure that’s Sophie Hagen for sure. Another one is a comedian called Chris Betts, we’re signed to the same agency. And funnily enough, he's a Canadian act, who actually lives out here and works out here. And the last one I instantly recognized and the others have been mashed up since is a comedian called Damian Clarke, and when I saw his photo, I've seen it so many times because he uses that photo for his own press and promotion all the time online. And I'm like one of his best friends as well. Instantly I shouted at my screen I was like oh, that’s Damo! Nice to see you. They were very recognizable to me when I saw them.

CO: Was there anything that this group of people whom you know and yourself anything in common? Any reason why all of you might have ended up together being used in this exhibit?

BA: The thing that connects the photographs specifically and the comedians is that we were all performing at the Edinburgh Festival in 2015. And all the photographs that are taken are the entries that we had in that festival's program. In terms of why he chose us from the thousands of comedians who go to Edinburgh Festival Fringe every year I couldn’t say. Maybe they were just the easiest to manipulate. That's me speculating entirely. So I don't know why he chose us, and I'd love to find out why.

CO: The artist who had the commission to make this art work — this installation. Derek Besant said these were all people that were Calgarians — pedestrians — who he had met in the underpass where the photos are exhibited. And that they are just people who live there and walk to work and know the place. That was the premise of the exhibit. Have you ever been to Calgary and walked through this underpass and had your photograph taken?

BA: No, not once. So I’m keen to come out and visit now.

CO: And so the words — the text — that is written on each of these photos. What is written on your face?

BA: My face says I want love, which is you know who doesn't? That's fine.

CO: But just some of the others I was looking at. One of them says I own nothing. I believe that's one of your friends?

BA: Yes, that’s Sophie Hagen that says I own nothing. I know her fairly well. She owns a few things, so that’s not true.

CO: The other one: I am alone.

BA: Oh, that’s a very sad one. I wonder who’s face that’s on? I mean comedians are lonely people, maybe they are. Who knows?

CO: Another one: I'm trying to find forgiveness, but I simply can't.

Ba: Oh dear, Oh no. That's horribly ironic. No, I haven't. I have no idea. That's something I don’t feel like any of us would say.

CO: What do you want done about this? I mean the City of Calgary has contacted the artist, and tried to find out how these images ended up, and what he has in the way of an explanation. What do you want from it?

BA: I think there are a lot of more involved than just me. Certainly, I was the connection that was able to figure out what was going on, and I brought it to light. But I'm not the only person involved. So there are a lot of creators — lots of different photographers — who took the original photographs. There a lot of different comedians who’s faces were used. For me personally, as an individual, it's kind of funny. But I do feel for the photographers because that's their work, that’s their income, and their work has been plagiarized by another artist for a fee. And that's really unfair. So I think somebody to address the photographers specifically, and certainly the rest of us as well would be great. Just to kind of have a conversation — an official conversation — with us would be nice. In terms of what I want, I don't know. A free trip to Calgary, that’d be great. Nice to come meet all of you. Bring all of us comedians out. That’d be a great time.

CO: So take all the people whose pictures are there, and fly them out, and let them walk through the underpass?

BA: For sure, and the photographers too. Their work is what got stolen.

CO: It’s almost December. So you might want to put off this request until the summer.

BA: Well, you know I'm always up for adventure. But that is a fair point.

CO: And what about this photograph of you saying I want love? What would you like done with that?

BA: Oh please somebody I’ve heard that they’re taking them down today. If somebody could go and save that and post it to me I would be over the moon. I need some wall art for my toilet, and that would be great.

CO: All right. We’ll leave it there. Bisha, thanks for speaking with us.

BA: Thanks for having me, Carol. Take care.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Bisha K. Ali is a British comedian who recently discovered that her headshot was used in a public art installation in Calgary without her permission. We reached Ms. Ali in London. The artist, Derek Besant responded to our request for comment today. In an email, he wrote, quote, "I've initiated that the temporary artwork be removed immediately and want to apologize to all concerned. In no way did I ever mean to hurt anyone involved, and I am extremely sorry that this is the result of my misunderstanding." Unquote.

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Part 3: Guantanamo Bay art, Boko Haram museum

Navajo Code Talkers

JD: Donald Trump hogged all the attention at an event in the Oval Office this week, when he made headlines for referring to Democrat Senator Elizabeth Warren as "Pocahontas"… again. That did not go over well… again, especially given that the event was to honour the Navajo people. And the "Pocahontas" comment, unfortunately, ended up burying the story behind the event itself, which was meant to showcase the heroism of Navajo Code Talkers during World War Two. In the 1940s, the U.S. Marine Corps recruited dozens of Navajo men to help transmit military code that the enemy would not be able to decipher. And it worked. Peter MacDonald spoke at the event. He is one of only 13 Navajo code talkers still living today. Here is part of what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER MACDONALD: In the early part of World War 2, the enemy was breaking every military code that was being used in the Pacific. This created a huge problem for strategizing against the enemy. Eventually, a suggestion was made in early 1942 to use Navajo language as a clue. Marine Corps recruited 29 young Navajos. They did not tell them what they are being recruited for because this was a top secret operation. They were just asked you want to join the Marines? You want to fight the enemy? Come join the Marines. Then they were separated from all the rest of the Marines. They took them to a top secret location. That's where they created a military code to be used in the Pacific. After creating 260 code words, the 29 young Marines, half of them were sent overseas to join the 1st Marine Division. On August 7, 1942, 1st Marine Division hit the beaches of Guadalcanal. This was the first battle where the Navajo code was to be tested in actual battle. Three weeks after they landed, General Vandergrift, commander of the 1st Marine Division, sent word back to the United States saying this Navajo code is terrific. The enemy never understood it, he said. We don't understand it either, but it works. Send us some more Navajos. So that opened up the gate for the United States Marine Corps in San Diego to start recruiting more and more Navajos using the same tactics. The thirteen of us, we still have one mission. That mission is to build National Navajo Code Talker Museum. We want to preserve this unique World War Two history for our children, grandchildren, your children, your grandchildren. Why? Because what we did truly represents who we are as Americans. America we know is composed of diverse community. We have different languages, different skills, different talents and different religions. But when way of life is threatened, freedom and liberty that we all cherish, we come together as one. And when we come together as one, we are invincible.

JD: Peter McDonald is a member of the Navajo Code Talkers, a group with only 13 surviving members. He was speaking at an event in the White House this week. That speech was overshadowed when Donald Trump chose to refer to Senator Elizabeth Warren… once again as “Pocahontas”.

[Music: Up-beat]

Guantanamo Bay art

Guest: Ramzi Kassem

JD: The art show in New York is called "Ode to the Sea". But if you were to stop in to see the paintings and sculptures, don't expect to run into the artists because none of them can make it. They're all behind bars at one of the most secure and controversial prisons on the planet: Guantanamo Bay. And now, the U.S. authorities who run the offshore detention centre say they will not let any more art made by detainees off the island. Ramzi Kassem is a law professor whose legal clinic represents three Guantanamo detainees. We reached him in New York City.

CO: Mr. Kassem, can you tell us about this art that was created by one of your clients, Moath Al-Alwi, it's at this show. Can you describe it for us?

RAMZI KASSEM: Moath is entirely self-taught. He didn't have much schooling when he was growing up in Saudi Arabia. He's a Yemeni citizen, but he was born and raised in Saudi Arabia. So it was really at Guantanamo that he learned to apply himself in this way. His teachers showed him a photo or a picture or a painting of a 19th century ship. And based on that, he recreated that out of cardboard and other reclaimed items he took. He uses cardboard from the guards’ Meals Ready to Eat boxes, which they donate to him. He uses a piece of string from prayer caps that other prisoners donate to him, piece of cloth from T-shirts.

CO: This is one of the works that’s in this exhibition, and it's quite beautiful. What are some of the other works?

RK: There are paintings and etchings and installations and you know models like my client Moath’s that are on display. And they've all been made by either current prisoners at Guantanamo or former Guantanamo prisoners, who now live as free men in various countries.

CO: There's a lot of water in these paintings. I mean, of course, they’re beside water. But this is sometimes I guess metaphoric, it's symbolic, it's storms on water, just ships on the water. Some are beautiful. Some are turbulent, but it's all pretty pictures. Just landscapes for the most part, right? Are they encouraged to do a particular kind of art?

RK: Well, you have to keep in mind that Guantanamo is about control. And from the creation of this prison in 2002, the U.S. government has been paranoid and absurdly controlling about the information that comes out of Guantanamo. The artwork that you — any artwork that has ever made it off the island that was created by Guantanamo prisoner — has been through an absurdly rigorous censorship and security vetting process. And so everything that's on display at John Jay has already gone through government censorship, even before it goes to government censorship, it has already gone through self-censorship by the detainee artists themselves. Because they know that a piece of art that is too overtly political would never make it through U.S. military censorship.

CO: Now what exactly have USA authorities told you about the new rules for art by Guantanamo Bay detainees?

RK: I was at Guantanamo Bay approximately two weeks ago, earlier this month. And I realized something had changed when the prison administration would not release any art to me that I had dropped off for censorship review a month prior in October. And then my clients told me that they had been informed that lawyers would no longer be permitted to take art off of the island. One of my clients told me that he had been informed that even if he were to be personally released, he wouldn't be able to take his art with him. And that his art would instead be incinerated at Guantanamo. So I inquired around and a couple of people who work at the Department of Defense informed me that, essentially, somebody higher up at the U.S. Department of Defense had caught wind of this exhibit at John Jay. They were upset about it, and passed on orders to the Joint Task Force Guantanamo — the prison administration — to no longer allow art off the island.

CO: You have had so much difficulty getting any information out of this. But what would be the motivation? What would be the purpose in preventing the public from seeing these landscapes by the inmates of Guantanamo Bay? Why do you think they're being prevented from being sent out?

RK: Well, it certainly can't be security because every single work of art that has made it off the island has been through a very rigorous security vetting and censorship review. I believe the real reason has to do with the nature of Guantanamo. Guantanamo has always been about dehumanizing, erasing, and controlling its prisoners. And when that Department of Defense official, whoever she or he is, found out that the prisoners were putting their story out there in their own way directly coming into contact with an audience, the public, an American public at that, who are able to walk into a gallery in New York City, look at works of art, and realize that the prisoners at Guantanamo are human beings who are capable of creating art. Who are capable of controlling their own narrative. Once that Department of Defense official saw that, they interpreted it as a threat because the Department of Defense and the U.S. government, unfortunately, has been heavily invested for years in the narrative that has been constructed around the prisoners at Guantanamo, around the prison itself, and around the larger project of the war on terror, which is to paint these men as super villains, as the “worst of the worst” to pick up Dick Cheney's old phrase. And so much has been constructed on that narrative that any counter-narrative that threatens that has to be stifled.

CO: Will your client, Moath Al-Alwi, will he ever get out of Guantanamo Bay?

RK: Moath has been at Guantanamo since 2002, his internment serial number, and the guards refer to the prisoners there by number not by name, his interment serial number is 028 — number 28. So he’s one of the very first prisoners brought to Guantanamo after the prison opened in January 2002. He's been there for 15 years. He's never been charged with a crime. He’s never been tried. He's never been convicted or sentence. So for Math, art has really been his only escape. It's sort of his last window of hope. The fact that he can create art, and that art can be seen by the world or by his family. We have a habeas corpus petition on behalf of Moath filed in federal court to try to force the government to release him. His case is now an appeal before the Federal Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C. We're waiting for an oral argument date. And, of course, you know I'll do everything I can, and my colleagues will do everything they can to ensure that the Court of Appeals reaches the right outcome and set this man free after 15 years without charge or fair process.

CO: Mr. Kassem, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RK: Thank you so much.

JD: We reached Ramzi Kassem in New York.

[Music: Cultural]

Question Period: Andrew Scheer

JD: Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer is calling for Finance Minister Bill Morneau to resign. And if Minister Morneau refuses to do so, Mr. Scheer says, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau should fire him. Mr. Scheer made the statements today just before entering Question Period. At issue is the claim that Minister Morneau unloaded tens of thousands of shares in his family's human resources company, Morneau Shepell, days before the Liberals introduced legislation to raise taxes on the country's highest earners. During Monday's Question Period, Minister Morneau sidestepped questions, despite being asked repeatedly. Today, he did address them, after one from Mr. Scheer.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: I’m happy to keep asking questions, Mr. Speaker. The reason why the finance minister is in trouble is because he can't simply answer the questions. He misled Canadians about putting his assets in a blind trust. He was fined for holding onto an offshore corporation and not disclosing it. And he introduced pension legislation that could benefit himself and his family company. And now he's refusing to answer simple questions about personal multi-million dollar transactions in Morneau Shepell. So how is it that the prime minister is able to blindly trust someone who has demonstrated such ethical lapses?

SPEAKER: The right honorable prime minister.

SPEAKER: The honorable minister of finance.

BILL MORNEAU: Mr. Speaker, there are no secrets here. As has been reported in the press when I came into office, I sold some shares. As has been reported when I came into office, I made a five million dollar donation to charity. As we know, we campaigned to 36 million Canadians that we would raise taxes on the 1 per cent, which we did. As everybody knows, except for perhaps the opposition, nobody knows about the stock market in advance. So Mr. Speaker, if the members opposite have something they want to say, they should say here, say now clearly, and in the foyer.

AS: MR. Speaker, it's good to see the finance minister being allowed to answer questions. So if he’s so sure that he's done nothing wrong, will he answer one very specific question? Was it he that sold the shares — 680,000 shares — in Morneau Shepell, just days before the motion was tabled in the House to change the tax rates?

SPEAKER: Honourable minister of finance.

BM: I am absolutely happy to answer the question. As has been reported in the press, I did sell shares when I came into office. What I can say with absolute clarity, Mr. Speaker, is that what we're doing here is we're focusing on something because they don't want to focus on something else. What they don't want to focus on is how well things are going for Canadians. That's what we will continue to be focused on, Mr. Speaker. We will pursue what we know is in the best interest of Canadians. That's what’s working. That's what we're going to continue to do.

JD: Finance Minister Bill Morneau, responding to Conservative leader Andrew Scheer in question period today.

[Music: Cultural]

Pepsi lobster

JD: Karissa Lindstrand drinks a lot of Pepsi — 12 cans a day to be exact. But last week, she came across that extremely familiar blue-and-red logo in an unexpected place: on a lobster. Ms. Lindstrand was banding lobster claws on a boat off Grand Manan, New Brunswick when she noticed an image of a Pepsi can imprinted on one of the crustaceans. In the four years she's worked on the boat, she says she's never seen any garbage come up with the traps — much less tattooed on an animal. Ms. Lindstrand spoke to CBC Fredericton's Shane Fowler yesterday about her discovery. Here's part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

KARISSA LINDSTRAND: The guys just pass me the lobsters into a crate, and I just happened to pick one up and seen that there was something funky in the claws. So I got a better look at it realized it looked like a Pepsi can. It's highly pixilated. Like if you zoom in to the picture and you look at it, to me, it almost looks like someone literally put a tattoo on the lobster. But, obviously, that's not what happened. I can't exactly say how he got it on because I'm not 100 per cent sure. I don't know.

SHANE FOWLER: So it looks like was it plastic or paper that something that kind of got into the shell or the shell grew around it?

KL: There's been different theories from people that I have talked to on the island on what could happen. They believe that maybe there is a can on the bottom of the ocean, and when it was growing, it grew around the can. People are believing that part of a box from the Pepsi cans might have got stuck on it when he was growing. I honestly don't know. I'm going to take a look at my Pepsi box right now. No, see, I don't know where it would come from because the Pepsi on the Pepsi boxes are huge. So I honestly can't say how it grew on there.

SF: But it is actual… it looks like a photo of a Pepsi can has been tattooed or pasted onto this lobster. Some people say it looks like it's Photoshopped.

KL: Yeah, and I really wish I knew how to Photoshop. But no, it was on there. It actually shocked me. But yeah, it was literally as if someone did put a tattoo right on its claw. It seemed more like a tattoo or a drawing on the lobster, rather than something growing into it. First time I've seen garbage imprinted on an animal.

SF: So I guess where is this tattooed lobster now?

KL: Probably in Boston.

SF: So he's already crossed the border?

KL: Yeah, I was trying to track down the guy that buys lobsters from us to see if he came across it. And his workers said that they have seen it. I honestly did not think it is going to become this popular.

SF: What kind of reaction have you had to this tattooed Pepsi lobster?

KL: I’ve had a lot of people telling me it's cool, and telling me I should of kept it. But yeah, people on the 88.9ROCK site have been saying it's Photoshopped. And I really wish I would've got pictures of more than just me. I wish I could of got pictures with my crewmembers with it or something, so that would clarify more that it was real.

JD: That was Karissa Lindstrand, speaking with CBC Fredericton's Shane Fowler yesterday, about a lobster she found with a Pepsi can imprinted on it.

[Music: Rock]

Boko Haram museum

Guest: Anthony Agbonlahor

JD: The stated goal is to preserve history and increase tourism, which sounds somewhere between noble and dull. But to Nigerians, it's neither. It's an outrage. This week, officials in Borno State, in north-eastern Nigeria, announced plans to build a museum at the home of Mohammad Yusuf, the founder of the Islamist militant group Boko Haram. During Boko Haram's eight-year insurgency, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20,000 people have been killed. And the country still faces deadly attacks on a regular basis. Anthony Agbonlahor is a human rights lawyer and activist. We reached him in Abuja, Nigeria.

CO: Mr. Agbonlahor, what was your reaction when you heard about these plans to build a museum at the home of Boko Haram founder.

ANTHONY AGBONLAHOR: When I heard the news, I was not happy. I was dumbfounded because it is not proper to immortalize a man, Mohammad Yusuf, who took up arms against his country — the man who took time to kill, to maim, and to plunder.

CO: I understand though that this issue is more than just an issue of national interest, but it's personal for you. You have lost friends by Boko Haram?

AA: Yes, I have lost two friends. One was a personal friend of mine, four years ago, he was killed when he went home to visit his parents. Two years ago, I lost another friend of mine who graduated from university, and had gone to collect his results. When he was killed, he was gunned down by Boko Haram mercenary. So I did not see how perpetrators of evil will have a monument set up in the name when innocent friends, women, and children, are either killed or raped.

CO: This is just a partial record of what Boko Haram has done in Nigeria. All the crimes it’s committed, the people is killed, and most recently, people will remember the Chibok girls, the students who were kidnapped, and kept for numbers of years before some of them were released. And so this is the man you're talking about. But this idea having a museum about him, what is Borno State of Nigeria planning to show in this museum?

AA: First of all, they have not been rescued all the Chibok girls. Some of them are in captivity. And Borno State government wants to glorify crime and criminality. Maybe you will display improvised explosive devices, or guns, and other weapons. What economic sense would that make when you consider the economic hardship? Schools have been destroyed; lives have been lost. How does that transform into any economic sense or historical sense?

CO: Well, the commissioner of Borno State, who is defending, this Mohammed Bulama, he says that it will be good for tourism. That will actually bring in revenue into his state because people will go to see the house of Boko Haram's founder as a tourist destination.

AA: His house is not a tourist attraction. There are other prominent Nigerians who have contributed meaningfully to the development of this country. Who will come to Borno State in a place where they keep bombing and people are still being killed. It doesn't make sense? Nobody benefits, apart from the commissioner and perhaps the government.

CO: Borno State is saying that they're not trying to glorify Boko Haram. They said, this is a quote, This is a way of documenting, preserving, and archiving our history. We want to document it for posterity to have a clear and correct picture of what happened.” So they're suggesting that this is a way like other museums have done of showing people — reminding them — what Boko Haram did. What do you say to that?

AA: What I'm saying is why must it be the house of Mr. Mohammad Yusuf? A few years ago, The Mumbai police school was overrun and destroyed. They cannot use any other space without glorifying the man? I am not saying do not remember. Remember what has happened. Remembering is part of living.

CO: What else can you do to fight this? Borno State seems determined to have this museum to Boko Haram?

AA: Yesterday, I had discussions with some of my other colleagues, human rights lawyer and activists, on what we can do? It is not in the Nigerian public interest that properties can be confiscated or taken over. Who will take up this by way of reaching out to the commissioner and the governor if there can be a reversal of this proposal.

CO: All right. Mr. Agbonlahor, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AA: It's a pleasure.

CO: Good night.

AA: Thank you very much.

JD: That was Anthony Agbonlahor. We reached him in Ajuba, Nigeria.

[Music: Rock]

Santa Photographer

JD: A Newfoundland photographer says he's sorry. But he wouldn't go as far as calling himself a Grinch. Last week, Robert Thornhill decided to quit taking photos of children with Santa at a mall in Carbonear. Loved the job, but it became too much for him, when a customer told him she only wanted one photograph, instead of a multi-photo package — because she was going to go straight to Walmart to scan it and print more. Mr. Thornhill lost his temper at that customer, in front of two other families. Now, he says he feels bad about that, but that he had good reason for misplacing his Christmas spirit. Today, Robert Thornhill spoke with Jamie Fitzpatrick, guest host of “The St. John's Morning Show”.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBERT THORNHILL: Admittedly, I did lose my temper that day, and I am sorry. I have apologized in print, on Facebook, I'm apologizing right now. I'm sorry. I'm honestly sorry. I loved that job. Seeing kids’ faces light up for Santa Claus is a most amazing feeling.

JAMIE FITZPATRICK: What happened on that day?

RT: We had a multitude of packages, starting at $5 four-by-six. And then it was $15 for four four-by-sixes, which is actually cheaper than buying one four-by-six if you do the math, which is compared to St. John's Santa Claus, pretty cheap. I wanted to include everyone. This lady bought a four-by-six. And she said now I'm going up to Wal-Mart and getting it printed off. And well, really I can't do that. So I went up to Walmart and asked to speak to a manager. And the answer I got was shrugged shoulders saying well there's nothing I can do. While they might not be completely breaking the law they have machines there does enable that. Personally, I can't do it. It's not just me as an artist, it's artists in general. Anyone that takes a picture, if you're copying their work, you're taking money from their pocket. It don't matter if it’s me or any photographer, or any painter, or any visual artist. If you go and scan their work, you're taking money from their pocket. Unfortunately, the only answer for me was to stop shooting at the mall.

JF: So on that day, after that conversation at WalMart, you actually went back and told Santa to go home?

RT: Yeah, I didn't say get out. There was very few people there. It’s not the way people are making it out to be. There was no line up of people or anything like that. Again, I'm being very forthcoming. I'm not trying to hide anything. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that it happened that way.

JD: Photographer Robert Thornhill, speaking to guest host Jamie Fitzpatrick on “The St. John's Morning Show” today.

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November 29, 2017 episode transcript

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