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The Current Transcript for November 9, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

My name is Carys and I am the eldest daughter of Geoffrey Cragg, the person whose death you are responsible for. I was 11 years old when you came to my house and when you shattered my world into pieces.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Carys Cragg was a little girl, snug in her bed the night her world changed and an intruder killed her father. She would be an adult before she had the strength to begin the process of trying to meet the man serving time for that crime. She went through Restorative Justice with guidance at every stage. But though she learned a lot about that night, the criminal, herself, even the story she shares offers no simple ending and raises questions about how much we know and do about the needs of children who suffer the loss of a parent through violent crime. Carys Cragg joins me in an hour. Also today: A message from space.

SOUNDCLIP

…Houston, I'd like to take some time this morning to recognize a moment of silence in honour of the victims of the Tucson shooting tragedy.

AMT: U.S. astronaut Scott Kelly was in the middle of a space mission, unable to race to any one sight to help when he learned his twin brother's wife, US Congresswomen Gabby Gifford, had been the victim of a shooting. It is one stark example of a job where no matter what happens, once you are on the international space station, you are stuck. And sometimes the emergency isn’t on earth. It is coming at you in space. In half an hour, Scott Kelly with stories of endurance. But we begin with the personal side of a story playing out in New Brunswick.

SOUNDCLIP

Even if all those victims who are in front of the court, won their cases they wouldn't be compensated. There are no assets left except the churches themselves.

AMT: What happens when the new sexual abuse lawsuits against Roman Catholic clergy run up against diocese that settled earlier cases and now say they are broke? I am Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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N.B. Catholic Church says there may be no money left to compensate sex abuse victims

Guests: Jean Louis Pitre, Brenda Brunelle, Pierre

SOUNDCLIP

It's very difficult to see all these new allegations coming in. The people behind the allegations are victims and they have the lawyers to represent them, and we have ours also. We try to proceed as the law ask us to do.

AMT: That is Valéry Vienneau the Archbishop of Monckton and the new allegations to which he's referring are certainly difficult on many levels. The Catholic Church in New Brunswick has been hit with a new sexual abuse lawsuit nearly every month for the past year. And this wave of allegations comes after an earlier process led by retired Justice Michel Bastarache that led to settlements with nearly 200 victims of sexual abuse by New Brunswick priests.

SOUNDCLIP

We know that it is only a few priests but one of them especially has a great number of victims and probably some of the victims possibly were not ready. When we asked him to come on at the beginning with the Bastarache process.

AMT: There are now 56 alleged cases of sexual abuse involving the church before the courts in New Brunswick. The Archbishop is concerned they no longer have the money to compensate all victims coming forward.

SOUNDCLIP

We had to sell our diocese in the centre. This was my residence, this has become my offices, I had about 14 people that were full time when I arrived here in Moncton, and right now there are only eight or nine and out of the eight or nine there is only two of us that are full time, because we needed find money to help to pay the lawyers and some of the victims that we were able to pay.

AMT: In fact the church has launched its own legal battle against its insurance company arguing it should take on paying some of the damages to victims of sexual abuse. My first guest today Jean Louis Pitre is one of those victims who reached a settlement with the church. He later pursued a criminal case against his abuser, Yvon Arsenault who is charged and convicted of molesting him, among many others. Jean Louis Pitre joins me now from Ottawa. Hello.

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: Good morning.

AMT: Can I ask you what happened to you?

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: With me, I met Yvon Arsenault when I was 14 years old. He arrived in Collette, New Brunswick. I was playing the organ player with my brother in Collette and I knew him through out of high school. The incident that the charges were laid against Yvon occurred at my father's camp when I was in eleventh grade.

AMT: So you were very involved with the church, you were spending time with the priest.

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: Yes. And he also he became very friendly with me and paid a lot of attention to me. I was very musical, very artistic and very much interested in travel which was quite different from the other kids in my very small village. And so this man who was educated and worldly and very, you know very similar to my interests, paid a lot of attention to me. So I felt very special which later on in life I came to see as being part of a grooming process which is quite common with victims of molestation.

AMT: Part of the manipulation of you?

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: Absolutely.

AMT: And you said you were in grade 11. How old were you?

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: When the incident that eventually sent him to prison. I was 17 when the one that did the one incident that was chosen to send him to trial was.

AMT: When the conciliation process started, did you hesitate to share your story?

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: I still had not shared my story with my family. They knew that something had happened. I only shared that with my family when I was in my late thirties, actually. And when the conciliation process came I was 50 years old. And so and by this time I had lived my whole life and knowing that this had happened and knowing that I hadn't done anything. And coming from a small town of course, like any when in this country who has lived in a small town, people talk and people know, and people know that things happen. And so I knew that there had been other people - other men who were boys who had had dealings or who had had incidents happened. Nothing had been proven in court, but stories abound in small towns. And so I felt as if had I done something earlier perhaps things would have been avoided.

AMT: So let me understand you. You actually did speak to justice Bastarache, you were part of the compensation package but that that hadn't gone criminal and you felt it was important to also go to the police.

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: Absolutely once I finished with the conciliation process with, the with the ex-judge Bastarache, the key question I had was - of course everything was kept- with judge Bastarache, she assured me that everything would be kept confidential that nothing would come out into the public, or even the archdiocese wouldn't know my name. But I asked specifically ‘May I speak about it? May I tell people that I participated?’ The only the only thing that I wasn't allowed to say was the amount that was settled upon. And so and I also asked ‘May I approach the police?’ Because I didn't feel satisfied. I didn't feel as if I could close the book on this because my aggressor had not heard a word of this. My aggressor had no answer to any of these allegations and so I felt it needed to go further.

AMT: Well Jean Louis Pitre, I have another person that I'd like to bring into this conversation. We're calling him Pierre, to protect his identity. He alleges that a Catholic priest Camille Leger allegedly sexually abused him. Starting in 1966, Camille Leger is now deceased over 30 complaints have been brought against him after his death. Pierre joins us from New Brunswick, hello.

PIERRE: Good morning.

AMT: How old were you when this alleged abuse began, Pierre?

PIERRE: Eight or nine years old?

AMT: And how long did it continue?

PIERRE: About five years.

AMT: You don't need to share the details but can you tell us about the impact this had on your childhood?

PIERRE: Well I feel it destroyed most of my youth. I mean it was very hard trying to hide what was happening. And I also thought that I was the only one. So therefore I did not bring it up to anybody; parents, brothers, sisters, friends or anybody. I just kept it to myself. I felt that I had to do that.

AMT: And you were in a small place you felt you were very isolated. Did you?

PIERRE: Well our regions here are a little town only held a couple of thousand people. You know most of the most of the kids were all involved with the church. We're all about the same age and it's not something you talked about.

AMT: And why did you decide to become public? Why did you decide to pursue this then?

PIERRE: Well about four five six years ago somebody brought up the attention in the little village that we have here, and they got the ball rolling. And as soon as I realized that somebody else was involved and there was other victims, well I got in on it. I felt that people had to know how bad this priest was. And you know as soon as someone opened the door that it flooded out everybody that you know you didn't think where the victim was a victim.

AMT: John Louis talks about how he was made to feel as if this was special or something and so that that would keep him silent. Do you remember how you were manipulated into not saying anything?

PIERRE: Oh yes. Father Ledger was very good at that. I mean you had to realize that at that age, that long ago, we were supplied with a lot of good stuff, like you know great food whatever. He knew how to make us feel by giving us ice cream, special food, instruments in the back. You know you're you were special to him. And he took care of it. And he also did the reverse when something happened that you weren't part of his group. He knew how to punish you and he did.

AMT: So where is your case now Pierre?

PIERRE: Well we haven't gone to court. I mean I don't know exact details on where we're at. From my understanding, from my lawyer, is that we're very close to going. We did all the mediation with the we met the Bastarache. We met their lawyers. As far as I know that's where we're at.

AMT: And what is the indication in terms of - we've heard that the diocese- the archbishop now say that the diocese can't afford to pay compensation. How do you respond to that?

PIERRE: Well I think that's ridiculous. I know that the Catholic religion is huge. I honestly don't know what kind of properties they have. I think it he's trying to manipulate - get himself out of it, I think financially. Personally I think that there are a lot richer than I think most people know the Catholic religion is a very rich religion.

AMT: Jean-Louis Pitre you received compensation from the church. Did it help in your healing?

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: I felt that he did know it. I felt that it you know it was a token. But at the end of the conciliation process it didn't it didn't help me turn the page. Some people in the process, it did. Some people were able to close the book and say I'm done I can move on with my life. For me it did not.

AMT: Well Pierre how important is the idea of compensation to you?

PIERRE: It's not important for me. When we first started it had absolutely nothing to do with the money. We had certain demands of a group that we formed you know talking to the other side of dioceses and lawyers. It was just simply a list of things that we up that we knew by experience that we didn't know what other kids to go through. They looked at it and it was it did just pretty well threw it away, at a certain point don't know what people say ‘well you know if you don’t want to listen to us on these items, well then let’s bring it to the door.’ And we sued them. If we take money from them it's going to hurt their pockets and debt and then maybe they'll listen to us but they never did.

AMT: Did you speak to the Bastarache the inquiry into this?

PIERRE: Yes we did.

AMT: And but your but your case is continuing beyond that.

PIERRE: Exactly. I mean we hope to get our day in court. You know we didn't want to go for settlement. all we want to do is tell the people what was going on, what's happening with it and we want the diocese and the priest to come out and admit you know and say ‘yes they are wrong’ and maybe make people out there to understand that we need to protect the kids, because the Catholic religion I mean the priest especially very bad priests.

AMT: What do you need now?

PIERRE: We need to get I think people on both sides together and maybe come up with solutions on ways that doesn’t happen. Like an example of one of our first demands was to make sure there's never a child alone with a priest in confession because a lot of people are actually abused in the confession.

AMT: Can I ask you are you both still members of the Catholic Church?

PIERRE: I've never been to church.

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: I'm not a member of the Catholic Church either Anna Maria.

AMT: And this is why obviously for both of you?

PIERRE: Well yes, all my family members same thing. My parents, my father never went back to church, my brothers and sisters same thing.

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: Many of my family are still members of the Catholic Church and I respect anyone who is still religious.

AMT: Gentlemen thank you both for talking to me about this today.

JEAN LOUIS PITRE: Thank you very much Maria.

PIERRE: Thank you.

AMT: And that is Jean Louis Pitre. He reached a settlement with Catholic Church in New Brunswick. He joined us from Ottawa. The man we are calling Pierre to protect his identity, started a settlement process in 2013 over his alleged abuse. He is in New Brunswick. My next guest has been watching the situation in New Brunswick. Brenda Brunelle was also a victim of abuse at the hands of a Catholic priest and she is the Canadian coordinator of SNAP. That is the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. She joins us from Windsor, Ontario, hello.

BRENDA BRUNELLE: Good morning Anna Maria thank you for calling.

AMT: I'm guessing you've heard far too many such stories.

BRENDA BRUNELLE: I have. Unfortunately they all have a very common theme. And the pain is the same just a different name that is held responsible for the abuse.

AMT: The archbishop the Archdiocese of New Brunswick did set up a conciliation process a few years back to hear and then compensate victims. We heard Pierre say that he rejected that process and wanted his day in court. Our other guest also went to court after the compensation. How do you read that that want to have this go to court?

BRENDA BRUNELLE: Well I can understand going through the conciliation process and the wanting to remain anonymous because of the shame and the guilt going into the process. For years many of these survivors have lived with the secret and have lived with shame and a lot of self-destruction and self-blame. When they finally have the courage to speak up and whatever that catalyst was to make them accountable - the church that is - for what they've done, there's still a degree of shame and so if you can do it quietly and not you know share with family and friends and people that are your most trusted confidants in your world that you've actually experienced this, I get the conciliation and wanting to keep it quiet. However coming out of the conciliation and the settlement, as what you've just heard, often times you know it's not enough. You've gone through the process and the grueling reliving of what's happened to you and over a period of time because it does take a long period of time to reach that settlement from the beginning of launching a complaint to the settlement. I think a lot of survivors are coming out recognizing that they in fact were victims of this crime and that they never were responsible.

AMT: And more lawsuits coming out since the Basterache compensation settlement in New Brunswick. The Moncton Archbishop Vienneau has said that he's worried about the finances of the church. I've got a clip I'd like you to hear. This is Robert Talach a lawyer representing dozens of the victims.

SOUNDCLIP

They have 144 different properties in the Acadian Peninsula. The assessed value is pushing 30 million. They always find money when it's time to fight abortion or to fix the church. And of course it goes without saying that the Vatican with tremendous wealth has rarely helped out its individual diocese and parishes when they're in trouble like this.

AMT: Brenda Brunelle, what do you make of the position of the church in New Brunswick that says it could be bankrupt if it pays out more settlements?

BRENDA BRUNELLE: Well I think they're just continuing to try and protect their own interest and their clergy. I think it's a further insult to the survivors that have endured suffering at their hands. I think they are 100 percent responsible really for what they have done. And there is no dollar value that will ever give back that peace of mind for these children that have been abused.

AMT: That said there are dollar values being put on it and the church says it can't afford it. So what's the solution?

BRENDA BRUNELLE: Well there's a sea of cash that goes through every single church every weekend of parishioners that donate and people should donate when they belong to any organization. They don't run on air I get that. But you know they need to stop the abuse. They need to pre-screen their priest. They need to suspend or defrock priest that have been credibly accused and convicted and they need to make a safe place for children. Unless and until that happens, in my opinion the government of Canada to allow the Catholic Church to continue operating, in our country, leaving our young children vulnerable, for Rome to continue to reap the benefits of all the faithful parishioners that pay weekly donations.

AMT: Well let me ask you about Rome because there are there have been efforts to sue the Vatican. We've seen a court in Portland Oregon actually say that some survivors opened the door to survivors of clerical sex sexual abuse go to the Vatican. Should the Vatican be held responsible for this monetarily? Briefly, we were almost out of time. Is that where you need to go?

BRENDA BRUNELLE: I think Rome is responsible. They set the guidelines. They've got the money. Ultimately they're the ones that are going to put an end to this.

AMT: Brenda Brunelle, we have to leave it there thank you.

BRENDA BRUNELLE: Thank you.

AMT: Brenda Brunelle is the coordinator for SNAP Canada. She joined us from Windsor, Ontario and SNAP the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests. We did request an interview with the Archbishop of Monckton Valéry Vienneau, he was not available. Stay with us. The news is next and in our next half hour a year in space on the International Space Station has given U. S. Commander Scott Kelly a pretty good perspective of life on earth. He is my guest after the news. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio 1, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on podcast and on your radio app.

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What's it like to spend a year in space? Astronaut Scott Kelly on his new book

Guest: Scott Kelley

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come two decades after her father's murder Carys Cragg couldn't shake the questions and the man convicted of the crime haunted her like a ghost, and so she reached out to him. She joins me to explain what it's like to connect with the man who changed her life in such a profound and tragic way, in half an hour. First: Ground control to Commander Kelly.

SOUNDCLIP

…Houston, I'd like to take some time this morning to recognize a moment of silence in honour of the victims of the Tucson shooting tragedy. First though I'd like to say words. We have a unique vantage point here aboard the International Space Station. As I look out the window I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately it is not. These days were constantly reminded of the unspeakable acts of violence and damage that we can inflict upon one another, not just with our actions but also with their irresponsible words. We are better than this. We must do better.

AMT: That was a message from space on January 10th of 2011. A poignant message delivered to to Earth from the International Space Station. Commander Scott Kelly had just learned that his sister in law Arizona Congresswoman Gabby Giffords had been shot. It was an assassination attempt that left six people dead. And for Commander Kelly a world away from his loved ones that was a dark time. The now retired U.S. astronaut is opening up about that time and much more in a new book. And after a career of space travel, including his final yearlong mission at the International Space Station, the book seems aptly named: Endurance. Scott Kelly is with me from Seattle, Washington. Hello.

SCOTT KELLY: Hello.

AMT: How did you find out your sister in law Gabby Giffords had been shot?

SCOTT KELLY: Well like you said I was on the space station in the Control Center in Houston came on the radio and said that they were privatizing the space to ground channel, which means they had a message and they didn't want anyone to hear what it was, because it was something that you know was potentially uncomfortable to hear. And then five minutes later when they had the comm system configured, the chief of the Astronaut Office came on the radio and she said ‘I don't how to tell you this I'm just going to tell you, your sister in law, Gabby, was shot in a bunch of people other people shot some of which had passed away.’

AMT: At the time you thought she was dead.

SCOTT KELLY: Yes. You know later they came on and then and told me you know the other information that was being reported which I actually asked for. I asked for all the information even if it was unverified. I wanted to know what the public knew including my family. So, later they said that she had died from her injuries.

AMT: How hard was it for you to send that message so soon after the shooting?

SCOTT KELLY: That wasn't hard. You know I felt like it was necessary. You know it seems like it's applicable even more these days.

AMT: It does, doesn’t'? You spoke with Vladimir Putin shortly after the shooting what did he say to you?

SCOTT KELLY: Yeah it was interesting we had a prearranged conversation link with him. He wanted to talk to the crew members aboard the space station. We actually do that with American presidents as well. And the Russians often join us so it was just this normal thing we occasionally do with crews in space. He was very nice actually he spent most of the time talking directly to me and letting me know how the Russian people are there to support my family and send their condolences. So it was you know it was actually a nice message he gave.

AMT: With all the tension today between Washington and Moscow over allegations related to the last U.S. election, are the U.S. and Russian space agencies still working together?

SCOTT KELLY: Yes absolutely. And you know it's interesting how you can have conflict on earth but that doesn't always translate to conflict in space at least with the people that are there working together. You know the space station is an international space station and we rely on each other for you know friendship and space, emotional support. Sometimes even you know we could rely have to rely on one another for our lives literally in an emergency. So you know conflict that happens on earth doesn't really affect us in space at least not so far.

AMT: And you really do rely on each other. Tell us the story of the Russian cosmonaut who started drifting away during the spacewalk.

SCOTT KELLY: Well that was relayed to me while I was on the space station. I didn't actually know about it at the time. But yes there was there's a story about one of the Russian crewmembers becoming untethered and happening to luckily hit something on the outside of the space station antenna which propel him back to where he could grab on. And you know the point of writing that was just really talking about the risk of going outside the space station and potentially what would happen if you floated away.

AMT: Hmm. And you were on that mission but you just didn't know that that happened at the time. He didn't say anything.

SCOTT KELLY: Yes we didn't talk about it but I do recall vividly like an image in my mind when they came back inside. They didn't look too little startled.

AMT: Wow. Could have been worse, eh?

SCOTT KELLY: That could have been a lot worse.

AMT: What's it like taking a spacewalk? How does it feel to be outside in space?

SCOTT KELLY: It's type two kind of fun. Type one fun is the thing that's fun while you're doing it. Type two fun is the thing that you do and you're when you're doing it it's really hard. And then when you're done with it and you get beyond you know as time goes by you're like ‘wow that was really fun. Didn't seem so at the time but in hindsight yeah that was great’.

AMT: Now there's only a finite number of people who have ever done that, yes? Well I want to hear more about your time in space but before we go there you have an identical twin Mark Gabby Giffords husband also an astronaut. What was it like for you two growing up?

SCOTT KELLY: You know we were best friends at times and other times worst enemies, until we were about 15 and then we grew out of that. But we would be partners in crime and also we would you know fight endlessly sometimes. You know when you have someone you are equally matched with and your parents are at work you could have fights that go on for you know all day.

AMT: [Laughs] Where you Daredevil's his kids?

SCOTT KELLY: Yes certainly little hellions and you know I'm surprised they survived my childhood;

AMT: And you're still the daredevil, in space.

SCOTT KELLY: Yes a little bit. Maybe I've grown out of it we'll see.

AMT: Were you an academic whiz kid in school?

SCOTT KELLY: I was the exact opposite of what people think a kid that becomes an astronaut was when they were younger. That wasn't a good student. I couldn't pay attention. And that's you know I think that's part of the message of my book, Endurance, is that you know a kid or a person that maybe isn't the brightest performer, the best in the class can find inspiration somewhere that can change their life and that's what happened to me when I was 18, still struggling academically. My first year college I happened to discover the book The Right Stuff. I read it. I could relate to it and it gave me a goal and a mission and a little bit of a plan on how to get there as well.

AMT: And if you're talking about Tom Wolfe's book The Right Stuff that looks at all of them pilots turned astronauts, what was it about that book?

SCOTT KELLY: Well you know it spoke to me in many ways; the risk these guys were taking on there you know in their daily lives as fighter pilots and test pilots and later astronauts was something that excited me. You know for whatever reason I felt like I wanted to do that even though part of the book had these guys crashing and burning and dying. It just made me think you know how exciting a job when the consequences of not doing it well could cost you your life. And I know that sounds crazy but that's you know how I felt when I read it. I also felt a lot of the characteristics these guys had, you know like personal characteristics, I could relate to. I can't really give you specifics on what those were but I could just remember reading it as a kid thinking ‘I think I'm like that guy with the one exception I can't pay attention and do my homework and do well in school’. And I felt like well if I could change that one thing maybe someday I could be an astronaut.

AMT: And how did you change that one thing?

SCOTT KELLY: Oh man it was not easy. You know brute force just forcing myself to sit in a chair and study and it took a while. You know I think if I was a kid today I'd be you know ADHD or ADHD kid. But you know that's not something I ever really thought about back then.

AMT: They were not diagnosing it either.

SCOTT KELLY: In retrospect you know that was that was me and you know I just brute force my way through it and figured out how to do better and be a better performing student.

AMT: It is interesting and like you say you want other kids to hear that, because when we are introduced to astronauts certainly in Canada the list of accomplishments and their ability to do so many things just goes on and on, from what the musical instruments they can play with the languages they speak to the sciences they know. And for someone watching that they might think that there's no way they can get from there from where they are. And you actually did it.

SCOTT KELLY: Yes. And I think you know there are astronauts that saw the Apollo landings and decided that they are going to do that. And they you know basically did everything perfectly, well, near perfectly or at least reported perfectly that they were the best students from then on. But that wasn't my experience and I think you know there are people out there that maybe can relate to mine a little bit better, because you know I wasn't always the best at everything. Even in my flying career, getting started I wasn't you know the best pilot initially but you know how good you are when you start something is really no reflection on how good you can become if you stick with it, and you know have some endurance and perseverance and never giving up. And I think my life is a prime example of that.

AMT: And how many space flights did you eventually take part in?

SCOTT KELLY: I flew in space four times. My first flight was a Hubble Space Telescope repair mission and I was the commander of Endeavor to the International Space Station. And then I flew twice on the Soyuz for long duration flights living on the space station four months of the time.

AMT: You set the American record, did you not, for the amount of time and space?

SCOTT KELLY: I did. You know I had the most days in space by any American that was recently eclipsed but I still am the person in America that had spent more time in space on one single flight.

AMT: And remind us how many days that was?

SCOTT KELLY: 340 days.

AMT: So let's talk a little bit about getting on that flight. Before one flight you're in Kazakhstan heading toward the rocket. Suddenly the bus stops, you all get out and you pee on the bus tire. What was that about?

SCOTT KELLY: Well Yuri Gagarin the first man in space was a Soviet cosmonaut. And when he was heading out to the launch pad they stopped the bus because he had to relieve himself. And they stopped in a certain spot. He got out and peed on the bus tire. So ever since cosmonauts and the astronauts that fly with them do the same thing.

AMT: It's like a good luck thing?

SCOTT KELLY: It's a superstition I think you know certain things happen and you know assuming the flight goes well you try to continue a tradition. Even in the American space program we have similar things. We have a before we would launch on the shuttle we would have to play this card game this low ball poker and the commander of the mission would have to lose a hand before you could actually leave the building where you get suited up and head to the launch pad.

AMT: So when we were waiting for shuttles to take off and there were delays were you guys playing cards?

SCOTT KELLY: I'll tell you what if you expected the crew to walk out of the space out of the building at a specific moment and they were a little late, it's likely because the commander was doing too well at that low ball poker game.

AMT: What was the hardest thing for you to endure during that year in space?

SCOTT KELLY: You know the hardest part about it is being you know separated from your family with no way to come home if something bad happens to them. It's not your personal safety you think about but it's what you think about is you know God forbid your kid got an illness or an injury or someone you cared about needed you to be there for them and you cannot come home. You know I experience that when Gabby was shot. Other astronauts have experienced that when their parents have died for instance. You know fortunately it's my understanding that no one's had any significant you know tragedy with one of their children which I think would probably be the hardest thing to deal with while you're away. That was always the hardest part for me.

AMT: There was a close call involving some space debris. What happened?

SCOTT KELLY: There's a lot of space junk out there and you know the space station often gets hit by it. We have very good debris shielding and you know so far we haven't had anything penetrate the hole. Usually when a big piece of debris is coming at the space station the U.S. Air Force can see it in time and we can adjust the altitude so it's not a risk. Sometimes they either don't see the big piece of debris in time or they don't really understand its trajectory, and it can be too late to be able to move the space station out of the way and you could have a potential impact. And that happened when I was up there this time. So when that happens when you can't get out of the way you prepare the space station for what could potentially be a thirty five thousand mile an hour collision and then you'd get in the Russian Soyuz and prepare to possibly undock. If you did get hit it's called sheltering in place and we've done that four times over the 18 years now. Almost 17 years at the space station has been inhabited.

AMT: And as you do that I know that you're concentrating on your job and you're really focused but what else is going through your mind?

SCOTT KELLY: Yes you all you of course you think about you know what might happen if you get hit in a 35000 mile an hour collision. I think the more you think about that the more you realize that it would not look pretty.

AMT: Would you even know.

SCOTT KELLY: Probably not. You know that I don't think you know the human brain synapses are quick enough to react to something going that quick, if it were to hit you.

AMT: And when you return to Earth after all those hundreds of days in space what was the hardest thing or things to readjust to?

SCOTT KELLY: You know I always found the you know there's certainly the physical effects of coming back from being in space for a long time that are that are clearly challenging. I've noticed a difference between being in space for six months and nearly a year. It's clearly different. I did not feel the same. But for me I think the hardest part is more of the- I wouldn't say psychological adjustment. Maybe you could use that term but it's really just getting used to living your life without a whole team behind you that planned your schedule and tells you what to do all the time. That's one of the hard parts about adjusting to living to working in space, is that you have this schedule you have to maintain and it's very ambitious set times. But likewise it's the hardest - at least for me - the hardest part about coming back is that you get so used to it, then you don't have that and you feel a little bit directionless.

AMT: You can walk down the street if you want to, huh?

SCOTT KELLY: Yes, you can do whatever you want, within reason of course.

AMT: And physically what was it like on your body to be back in gravity?

SCOTT KELLY: You know initially it's kind of painful. We expend a lot of energy every day opposing gravity. And when you don't do that anymore you have issues with you know bone loss, muscle loss. In my case you know my joints are really stiff and muscles are really stiff. It's kind of painful to walk around for a while. I had swelling in my legs that I didn't experience my previous six month flight. I had rashes and hives where my skin was kind of reacting to any kind of pressure. You're nauseous. I was nauseous for about a week which surprised me because I had never really been nauseous for more than just an hour on previous flights. So there's definitely some a reaction to returning to gravity but that's the reason why we're up there for so long is to try to understand these things. So someday when we go to Mars, we're prepared.

AMT: How has it changed you in other ways, as a person?

SCOTT KELLY: Looking at the earth with no political borders, looking at this beautiful planet for the most part that seems very peaceful. But then you know when you turn on the television at night and you just hear the news that is this constant just bad stuff over and over and over again. I think the experience makes you a more empathetic person, more of a humanist you might say. And it changes people I think you know for the good at least that was my experience.

AMT: You mentioned Mars. NASA is working towards sending humans to Mars by the 2030s. Elon Musk's target is sooner. What potential do you see for humans on Mars?

SCOTT KELLY: Well I think we have the capability to do that, if that's what we choose to do. I think the space station has demonstrated that we can do incredible things as an international partnership. And if we want to go to Mars we can do it. We need the support of the population. And people often wonder like what can I do to help NASA or what can I do to help with the environment? What can I do to help here? And I think at least in the United States what we can do is - because you know that's my country and the one I'm more familiar with - is we can put people in office that believe in science that maybe they're not necessarily scientists, although it would be great to have more scientists and engineers and technical people in Congress, but at least you know select and choose and elect people that maybe if they're not scientists they at least trust what scientists say. I am always shocked that when 97 percent of climate change experts say you know there is climate change and the people are responsible for it to have someone that's not a scientist refute that. I mean by what basis do you refute 97 percent of the experts it makes no sense to me. And I think if we want our country to do great things whether it's in space or just in science on earth. You know do what's required to deal with issues that are complicated that require data and fact to make decisions. I think having people in office that are more science minde engineering mind is what we need.

AMT: And people who appreciate and actually understand the possibilities of science too.

SCOTT KELLY: Absolutely.

AMT: And if Elon Musk were to call you and say ‘hey you want to go to Mars?’ Would you go?

SCOTT KELLY: I think the first thing I would say was ‘Well can I come back after I go to Mars?’ And if he said ‘yes’ I would say ‘well let's talk more about it’. I would want to go.

AMT: Show me the rocket right. [Laughs]

SCOTT KELLY: You know let's talk about the mission profile and what it looks like and what you'd be flying on. But I would definitely be interested.

AMT: In the meantime would you be interested in politics? In taking what you've learned and your experiences and bringing them to work in Congress?

SCOTT KELLY: I'm being asked that a lot lately and the issue I have is I am too much of a moderate. You know I'm not on the edges of either political party. And unfortunately in the United States to get elected in a primary you have to be an extremist because the way we design the political districts in the United States, at least a lot of them, they're gerrymandered. Which means you include districts with you know all Republicans or all Democrats and the people that come out in the primaries and vote are the people that are on you know the for this generally on the you know the further left or right of the party. Generally speaking I think it's not helpful to be a moderate or a centrist if you want to get elected in a primary.

AMT: Maybe you need to see if you can send some of those politicians who are so extreme to space.

SCOTT KELLY: You know, Micha used to say that when we were in space he said ‘you know if our two countries wanted to solve our issues we have with one another, we should just send our two presidents to space together for a year’.

AMT: Well there you go. Maybe that's the answer. Scott Kelly, thank you. Thank you for your work and your thoughts.

SCOTT KELLY: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

AMT: Scott Kelly former, U.S. commander of the International Space Station. His new book is called Endurance: A Year In Space. A Lifetime of Discovery. He joined us from Seattle, Washington. Let us know what you think of what he's had to say including that last part to the moon with leaders to solve things. You can tweet us we are @TheCurrentCBC, find us on Facebook or go to our website cbc.ca/the current. Coming up in our next half hour, dead reckoning. Carys Craggs life was changed forever when she was 11 years old her father was brutally killed. Two decades later she found the only way to truly move forward was to actually contact the man who had taken her father's life. She joins us with what happened in about 90 seconds. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio, 1 Sirius XM, Online on cbc.ca/the current, on your radio app and on podcast.

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'I have felt joy re-enter back into my life': Why Carys Cragg reached out to her father's killer

Guest: Carys Craggs

Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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Marion Craig told the court today she screamed when she saw her husband fall to the ground. He'd been stabbed and collapsed in the front staircase of their home.

AMT: Well Dr. Geoffrey Cragg was stabbed three times that night in September of 1992. He'd been awakened by someone breaking into his Calgary home. A struggle ensued. Later that morning Dr. Cragg was pronounced dead. It had happened so quickly, it made so little sense. In the weeks and months after his death his wife Mary and their four children were left to grapple with the enormity of that loss. There was an arrest. There was even a conviction. 22 year old Sheldon Klatt was found guilty of second degree murder. As the years pass the eldest of Dr. Cragg's children could never shake her questions about what really happened that night. Carys Cragg was 11 when it happened. Two decades later she decided she would contact the man who'd killed her father. Carys Cragg writes about that in Dead Reckoning and she joins me from Vancouver. Hello.

CARYS CRAGG: Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

AMT: What made you decide to contact Sheldon Klatt all those years later?

CARYS CRAGG: Oh wow. And it really was all those years later and it really did not occur to me to contact him until the moment that I was sitting in a coffee shop with a new friend from work. And like all new friends they eventually at some point in time ask me how my father died. And I tell them this horrific story and of course they're shocked and I'm just floored by this. But she was the first friend who asked me out of all the new friends that I had in those 19 years. And she said ‘Do you know anything about the offender?’ And it was just this intersection that was just this overwhelming like boom, like wow! Here you go, here are the few things that I know about him. But I guess because I was in this place of wellness. I had a nice job, I had a safe home, I had all these nice friends and lovely family around me, and I thought ‘oh my gosh I had this opportunity’. There were there was five years left on his prison sentence or his 25 years. And so I thought oh I had this opportunity to contact him and so it just occurred to me in that moment, and then it was just this rush of exploration as to how I could actually go ahead and do that.

AMT: Well tell me about your father Dr. Geoffrey Cragg.

CARYS CRAGG: Oh my father. Wow. My dad was a very cool guy. He was just full of energy, full of life. Even though he was kind of like this massive energy force in every room he entered he always made you feel like the most important person in the room, whether it was a patient he saw, or his daughter like me, or one of my friends at my house. And he you know he's a really talented man. He pursued every possible hobbies or interests possible. Some stuck and some didn't like sailing stuck. You know made a couple of violins, build us tree forts in the backyard and you know just a really really lovely guy, always wanting to learn something new always wanting to explore something and just love the people around him.

AMT: He was a very complex physician but he always had time for you guys, uh? You really had special moments with your dad.

CARYS CRAGG: We had really special moments. Now of course my memories are a bit skewed. I know he was at the hospital a lot in my childhood. And so you know from the memories I can remember mostly that happened in Calgary and so of course like objectively I know that he was at the hospital or studying at the university quite a bit. But my mom and dad made sure that we had these tight moments of connection. So I have vivid memories of just my dad and I just you know going around town either shopping, or going out to dinner, or just having these lovely little moments in the house. And so that's of course what I remember.

AMT: And so at 11 years of age what happens to your life after he's killed?

CARYS CRAGG: Wow. Everything changes you know everything changes. Everyone around you changes, the whole house feels different. I felt absolutely lost. And just in this vast void of emptiness I don't even know how to describe it. I mean earlier you mentioned the word enormity. And I think that was what it was it was just this massive enormity of weight that left on your little 11 year old shoulders to figure out what does my life mean now that my father isn't in it? And how can I try and keep him in it even though he's not physically here with me? And so it was devastating. It was full of emptiness and loss. And I always like to describe how that recovery went was to literally try and rebuild and reconstruct your entire life. I had no idea that that's what the challenge was when I was 11. But when I look back I realized oh that's what I was doing and that's why it was so hard.

AMT: And what was it like for your siblings and your mom at the time like what do you remember of all that?

CARYS CRAGG: Oh I can't say too much about their own experience because of course everyone just has such a different journey. We were all kind of I would just say floundering around trying to survive and trying to do well, trying to take on the various responsibilities that an 8 year old has in their life to go to sports and go to school and. And my mom of course had to find a job take care of four children. The enormity of that, I can't even imagine. And you know we were all you know floundering around trying to survive and did it pretty well. But I would say to that mostly is that every single person in the family, like all families, takes a different journey in what they need to survive. And I knew very young, very early on, that I needed something and I was just continually trying to pursue ‘Oh what do I need to be well?’ And that's always evolves and it will continue to evolve.

AMT: How much did you think about Sheldon Klatt as you were growing up?

CARYS CRAGG: You know strangely enough not a lot. So he in our family, in my immediate family, he was not talked about. He was not kind of referred to other than maybe like when the appeal happened a couple of years later or those types of moments. I thought he really became, I think because of the lack of talking about him in either monster type of terms that was definitely not the case, he almost became this ghost. And so in that kind of absence of talking about him he just became this ghost like figure or essence. That of course had influenced my life so much but I didn't know anything much about him. I didn't even I wasn't even mad at him per se, because I didn't have anything to hold onto. And so I was mad. I was a really mad young girl. But I was more just mad at the world mad at how unfair this was and but didn't have anything to kind of really locate that onto. And so yes that's how that works.

AMT: And so when you were ready you sought you sought out the restorative justice process to connect with him. What were you hoping for when you began that?

CARYS CRAGG: When I began I had this insatiable need for information. So because of all this kind of the silence that was established within kind of my family and all around me, which is quite common after crime I hear. I am the exact opposite. I need information. I need to talk about things and that's just my disposition and the way. So the first thing that I really wanted when contacting him was just information. I just wanted to know him. I wanted to understand him. I wanted him to know information about me and my process and the whole journey. And then it became something else. And that's what I describe it in Dead Reckoning, is kind of through this correspondence and then meeting him from the beginning deciding that and then once I let it go. It's all about those tiny little changes that happened and these things that I got out of it that I had no idea and was not expecting. So I went in for information. I got most of it. And had to deal with not getting the information that I want, but really what happened was I realized I was living with this kind of general ease in my life. And by the end of contacting him that unease, that lack of trust that lack of safety, just kind of that subtle feeling going on in my life that went away and I've never felt that unease again.

AMT: Well the process began with an exchange of letters and I know you have a little bit there to read for us so why didn't you go ahead and read from that first letter.

CARYS CRAGG: Great, I preface this letter that he did not know who was writing to him at first until he received this. [Reading the letter] I have many things I'd like to say, ask, clarify and understand but for the purposes of this letter I guess what I'd like to do is introduce myself and clarify my intentions. I know that there are multiple official options for what it is called when victims speak with their offenders. I don't really care what anyone calls this process dialogue or whatever. I'm more so interested in just acknowledging that our life paths have crossed in an extremely significant way and at least for me to go on in life without acknowledging that connection would be living a less than full life. My name is Carys. And I am the eldest daughter of Geoffrey Cragg, the person whose death you are responsible for. I was 11 years old when you came to my house and when you shattered my world into pieces.

AMT: What do you remember when he wrote back to you, what sticks out for you when he first wrote back?

CARYS CRAGG: Those first few interactions, what I remember you know before this whole process began there were sort of justice workers. Here in B.C. and then in Alberta you know they have to go to him and say ‘One of your victims wants to be in contact with you’, and ‘will you accept a letter?’ Of course because in restorative justice or transformative justice everyone has to consent and agree to participate. And they told me that he agreed to receive this letter but that he was apprehensive and nervous and he repeated that in his response back to me. And this of course was because of various experiences he had at the trial or parole hearings et cetera. And I had to really establish myself that I was not there to seek vengeance, to seek revenge or express hateful language. I was there to understand him. And we had just spent a little bit of time establishing that trust, where trust is a very murky thing there. But the thing that I remember the most was that he became a person. There were words attached to him. There were feelings. He changed from this ghostlike experience my entire life, that 19 years, and all of a sudden he became a person. And from that point in time all the way to meeting him he just slowly became more of a person. And I appreciated that immensely.

AMT: The back and forth of the letters - and you have a lot of them in your book - for the better part of two years, am I right?

CARYS CRAGG: Yes.

AMT: You often get angry with the way he saw things.

CARYS CRAGG: Yes. There were a lot of emotions. There's anger and there was satisfaction and there's clarity and ease. Yes. So I am a bit of a I'm a very concrete rigid thinker sometimes very analytical which clearly comes out in the book. He kind of varies his responses to some of my questions and some that I would say border on lies, malicious lies? I don't know. But I had to sit with that first off and feel that and be reminded of what that was like because of course he spent the entire trial. He spent 12 years lying about who had killed my father. And so this of course brought up a ton of feelings. And so in the letters I eventually call him out I'm very angry at him for what I perceived to be lying to me. And of course we have to have that really difficult conflict through letters and in person. And of course it's not all about that conflict. But that was definitely a piece and that was difficult but useful.

AMT: And you actually work in the justice system too. So you have that those two prisms through which you see what he's saying.

CARYS CRAGG: Yes. So I work in human services Child and Youth Care is my profession what I've worked in and what I was working in at the time when I was corresponding with him as an outreach counselor. And but now I teach in Child and Youth Care. So I have as I was there, both as a human being as a victim of crime, but I was also there with my education and curiosity and training and all of that. And so I was perceiving him through that lens as well. Actually I think it was quite helpful for me because I could understand what he was doing and I could have a bit of relaxed zen about it when it became very frustrating.

AMT: Well and intellectually you understood that he came from a very tough childhood. So you understood the importance of or the significance of that in shaping someone as they grow older. But that didn't excuse a lot of things obviously.

CARYS CRAGG: No. And I always say that's the exact explanation I was expecting. And of course it's not an excuse. But I did know very early on, you know people used to tell me in my teenage years ‘oh you're so resilient’. And I thought I'm not resilient. I have this lovely family I have generations of safety and education and all this opportunity. And so of course I'm doing relatively well responding to this awful awful crime. I knew very early on that you know a young man, 22 years old, I knew a couple of the things that was going on for him, high on drugs, involved in crime. I knew instinctively and then through my education and training, confirmed then by listening to him his story through these letters is that he had a horrific horrific childhood. None excuse at all but definitely an explanation and explains a lot of why he showed up to my house.

AMT: You eventually met Sheldon Klatt. Tell us about that meeting.

CARYS CRAGG: Well I met him in the institution. The minimum security institution where he was residing at the time and we - the restorative justice worker in Alberta and him at the prison. And you know everything was kind of under my control of course. Everything was under constraints like we were at the prison. It was an awkward room set up, but I had total authority over when we started, whether we would even go ahead with this. We asked all of these things and I found that incredibly empowering because I find in the restorative justice system for the most part practitioners are trained to kind of let the victim take the lead. And that is this incredible sense of power of course because being a victim of crime, power is the first thing that's taken away from you. So when I met him I felt safe. I felt the ability to be present and that was really my goal for that day. I thought if I'm angry I'm going to be angry, if I'm sad I'm going to be sad, if I'm satisfied, I am satisfied. And so of course as soon as I met him he became this whole person. He was right there in front of me. I could hear his voice. I could see how he moved. He told me much more than what was said in the letters. And by the end of the day I knew we were done and I said we're done. And so it's just this this odd day that happened in my life in 2012, the day after my father died, I decided that's what I wanted to meet him. The anniversary of that death and. And so it was it was an absurdly odd day. And one of the most meaningful days in my life.

AMT: But it didn't end like the movies?

CARYS CRAGG: [Laughing] No. So I'm really glad you said that because I think some restorative justice stories are entering into a kind of mainstream discussion and I think that's fantastic. Like most crimes there's lots of questions and I had to learn how do I let those questions go and realize they're not my responsibility to ask. They're his responsibility to tell. And if he's not going to then that's his problem. And so that was a huge thing for me.

AMT: It's interesting how you put it because you can get the anger like. After the meeting you get you get angry all over again and you explain why, but then you do come to this realization. What did restorative justice do for you then?

CARYS CRAGG: Oh great question. I would say it offered me something that was missing and I didn't know what was missing until I did it. And that was so lovely. I find that the criminal justice system you know we're all generally aware of the criminal justice system. It follows particular paths. And really the crime for the criminal justice system it's a murder against the state. And he was on a destructive path and they incarcerated him for the set amount of years and now he's doing very well, by all accounts and moving on with his life and thank goodness. But all of that mostly just privileges the offender's experience. Victims really in that system I think are very token representation. And for me restorative justice totally threw that on its head and said ‘No we're also going to respond to you and what you need and nothing's going to be perfect. But we're going to listen to your questions where you need how you want to do this.’ And that is so wonderful because every single victim of crimes needs is different. So I feel so thankful that I was listened to because of course as a young person I was just screaming to be listened to.

AMT: It's interesting that you say it offered you something that was missing. You don't use those words we hear in the media all the time closure in healing. It wasn't about that, it was about finding that piece that you weren't sure what that piece was.

CARYS CRAGG: Yes.

AMT: And piece P I E C E, that piece of something missing right.

CARYS CRAGG: Both. I love it that you use that word. Both peace and piece. I wasn't looking for closure. This continues like he's still around.

AMT: Well in fact he's out. How did you feel? He served his sentence. He's out of jail. How did you react to that?

CARYS CRAGG: Well it's been years of kind of a gradual release. He's been on a gradual release from escorted temporarily leave, for a couple of hours, to work releases to date releases. And then as of August September of this year he was granted full parole because he had shown the parole board members who I had seen at the number of parole meetings or hearings for the past couple of years, who were dissatisfied with his plan and he was doing much better, showing a better plan for working and relationships etc. That made me so satisfied. And I think people kind of like ‘Oh that's interesting that you're so satisfied or you're happy for him’ or whatever. And really actually it has really nothing to do with him. I'm very glad that he is doing well and he's on a good trajectory. But I'm glad for that for me because he's on this good trajectory that means I get questions answered. I get satisfaction. And so if he wasn't on that trajectory I would feel more unease and I don't want to feel that and I don't think I have to or should have to.

AMT: At one point in your book you know you talk about wanting him to experience like having a partner or having a child.

CARYS CRAGG: I do. And without giving away all that detail of how I got to that point. I really want him to feel all those things because all along my correspondence with him and meeting with him I wanted him to understand what he had done to my family, what he had taken away from me, what he had taken away from my father. I truly believe that because he lacked those lovely experiences in life that I got to have for 11 years and that it changed. I believe that if he got to have those experiences that maybe he really would then understand what he took away.

AMT: So that's an interesting way to see it. So you want him to have that so he can understand what it would be like not to have that.

CARYS CRAGG: Yes it almost sounds a bit of you know kind revenge.

AMT: Is that how you see it?

CARYS CRAGG: Well no. I just. I do. I fundamentally want him to have a wild life a good life.

AMT: You know I am a few months back I spoke with Margot Van Sluytmanand the man who killed her father Glenn Flett. He killed Theodore Van Sluytmanand in 1978. Margot talked about forgiving Glenn and becoming great friends with him. She also said she would not expect everyone to forgive, if that isn't right for them or to have that friendship. What's your thinking on her story versus yours?

CARYS CRAGG: Well that's true there's so many similar pieces. In fact some people you know text me when they hear her story on the radio or something and they say ‘hey are you on the radio?’ I say ‘no’. But Margot is such a strong strong woman. And I think both our stories, they do have so many common factors; daughter of a murdered father. But they diverge in so many ways and I think that offers people the chance to understand that ‘Oh these can take all different trajectories’. And people need all sorts of things. Both of us have always listened to what we need in that exact moment, when contacting the offender or anything to do with the process and I think that should be instructional for other people thinking about this process is saying ‘Okay I better listen to exactly what I need so that my story can look how it needs to be’.

AMT: Your father's killer has been released from prison after serving his time. That happened just when the book's coming out. And just as you have your first child.

CARYS CRAGG: Yes.

AMT: All of this confluence of events, all these years later, are you able to feel like you have or are rebuilding your life and moving forward in a way that satisfies you?

CARYS CRAGG: Oh that's such a lovely question. All of these things interest actually that at the same time and I truly sit back and think ‘Oh my gosh this is more powerful than I ever expected’. And since meeting him and finishing writing to him I have felt joy enter back into my life. And of course it's not the same as the joy my father carried around with him, but it's my new type of joy. And so writing a book is for me filled with joy. Looking at my little boy, my little 4 month old boy, is filled with joy and all the things that I'm bringing into my life now are filled with energy and challenge and happiness. And of course it's filled with difficulty like any other life. But I'm so happy that that's what's been happening, and I'm so excited for how the rest of my life might lead, because I didn't want to be in survival anymore.

AMT: What's your little boy's name?

CARYS CRAGG: His name is John Geoffrey is named after my step dad John and my dad Geoffrey.

AMT: And so tomorrow is another day for you.

CARYS CRAGG: Yes.

AMT: Carys Cragg thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for giving us your perspective on things.

CARYS CRAGG: Thank you so much for your curiosity.

AMT: Carys Cragg is the author of Dead Reckoning: How I Came to Meet the Man Who Murdered my Father. She joined us from Vancouver. That's our program for today stay with Radio 1 for Q. Guest host Ali Hassan is joined by writer and illustrator Oliver Jeffers. Remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app free from the App Store or Google Play. We're going to leave you with a voice we'll be hearing tomorrow. Harry Leslie Smith is in his 90s. He's a writer and he's a podcaster connecting with millennial audiences in Canada and in his native Britain. He will be my guest. In the meantime we're going to leave you with a few of his words. This is Harry Leslie Smith from one of his YouTube videos. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Hello I am Harry Leslie Smith. I was born in 1923 in a coal mining town of Barnsley, Yorkshire. My generation next period has the same economic political and spiritual crisis we face today; disease, malnutrition and poverty teamed our streets because millions of workers were unemployed and government benefits were few and far between. I am not a historian, but at 91 I am history and I fear its repetition. Indeed for the poor, the working class and the middle class life has become a desperate struggle to survive. None of this is right and it doesn't have to be like this. Not for you, for your friends, for your children or for your neighbors. If we fix it after the Second World War we can fix it again.

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