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The Current Transcript for November 17, 2017

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

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There are still sports figure stand-up comedian political figures there. They're everywhere and it's really an exciting thing that these abusers are being taken down.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: That's comedian Tig Notaro speaking out in the wake of news about Louis C.K. and sexual misconduct. That was before yesterday's allegations against comedian turned politician Al Franken. But she knew then that more and more men in powerful positions would face such allegations, perhaps especially so within the world of comedy. It is a job like no other, one that trades in raunchy talk and cross lines. And for decades it has been dominated by men, just like Franken and C.K. In just a few moments we're heading backstage with three women working in comedy for their insights into the realities behind the laughs. Then why has a Canadian citizen languished for three years in a Parisian jail for a crime he swears he did not commit and for which France has yet to try him.

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The crime was horrible. Innocent people were killed, but making an innocent man pay for a crime that he did not commit to will not lead to justice.

PC: Hassan Diab’s wife and his lawyer will recount his disturbing case and they're calls on the government of Canada to intervene on his behalf. Then there's nothing itty bitty about the value of Bitcoin as the crypto-currency price continues to soar. Where is it heading? This long time Facebook executive has faith in its staying power.

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I own Bitcoin in my hedge fund. I own Bitcoin in my fund. I own Bitcoin in my private account. It is a huge deal. It is gold 2.0.

PC: The future of Bitcoin. That's coming up in an hour. Hi I'm Chattopadhyay and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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'It's not a joke. It's not OK': Female comics speak out against sexual harassment

Guests: Michelle Shaughnessy, Aisha Alpha, Rebecca Kohler

PC: Another day another public figure facing allegations of sexual misconduct. Among the latest is Al Franken who made his name as a comedian on Saturday Night Live before shifting into U.S. politics, as a Democratic senator from Minnesota back in 2009. And an American radio and anchor yesterday accused Senator Franken of kissing and groping her without consent. Leeann Tweeden said it happened during a USO tour in 2006 to support U.S. troops in Afghanistan. She said they were rehearsing a skit Senator Franken had written.

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He's like “well we need to practice the kissing scene”. I'm like “Yeah, okay, whatever” I just sort of blew him and off. And then he really persisted and said "No we really need to practice”. So I was just like, “Okay, fine,” just so he would shut up, you know. And he just sort of came at me and before you even know it, he'd kind of get close and he just put his hand on the back of my head and he mashed his lips against my face and he stuck his tongue in my mouth so fast. And all I can remember is that his lips were really wet and it was slimy. In my mind, I called him fish lips.

PC: Leeann Tweeden also posted a photo from that USO tour of Senator Franken appearing to grope her breasts as she slept. He has since apologized for his behavior. This is just the latest incident in a string of sexual misconduct allegations and revelations involving powerful men. From Senate hopeful Roy Moore to Hollywood heavyweights Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey and comic royalty including Bill Cosby Louis C.K. and just for laughs bounders Gilbert Rozon. This morning we are taking a closer look at what it's like for women trying to make a living in the world of comedy. Aisha Alpha is an L.A. based Canadian comedian and actor we have reached her in L.A. Rebecca Kohler is a Canadian stand-up comic actor and writer she's also in Los Angeles. And Michelle Shaughnessy is a stand-up comic and writer. She is in our Toronto studio. Hi to all three of you.

GUESTS: [Cross talking] Hi. Hi. Hi.

PC: Aisha Alpha. Let me begin with you. When you heard yesterday as many of us did to the revelations about Al Franken, the accusations, what was your reaction?

AISHA ALPHA: I think I've stopped being surprised by all the allegations. I feel like it's sad. It's just really sad that there's so many people who have done so many things and who are now in really really big positions whether it's in comedy and entertainment or now in the political sphere.

PC: In his initial statement, Aisha, he said “I certainly don't remember the rehearsal for this skit in the same way” before issuing a second statement later yesterday. What do you think of what he initially said “I don't remember it the same way”?

AISHA ALPHA: It's like. It makes me crazy when people, and I'm missing huge you know quotation marks here, when people's apologies start off with “I just don't remember” because it really denies the person who went through that their experience in my opinion. I feel like saying “I don't remember” and then saying “but if you think that's what happened. I'm sorry that that's how you feel about it” is not an apology and it's not an admission of wrongdoing and it's not taking responsibility for anything. So, it’s crazy making.

PC: Michelle Shaughnessy I think the bombshell in the comedy world anyway is when Louis C.K. the allegations against him came out. He too had a statement, an admission and an apology. How did you read all of it including his ‘mea culpa’?

MICHELLE SHAUGHNESSY: Well he didn't really even say the words I'm sorry in his statement. And I think that- I couldn't really take it seriously. He wrote a very long statement or came out with a very long statement and there words I'm sorry weren't even in it. And I know a few people have come out and said that, you know they said “you issued like 10 paragraphs and you didn't see the words I'm sorry ones.” But like I just said I wasn't surprised by the Louis C.K. thing at all. Like none of that shocked me.

PC: Because?

MICHELLE SHAUGHNESSY: I just think it's just - Every time we turn on the news today like you're just hearing more and more of it. And I think as being a woman in comedy I think all of us have experienced some type of this, and people have been talking about the Louis C.K. thing I think for a very long time. And he said nothing of it. And I think if people were saying horrible things about you and you didn't do it, I think personally wouldn't you be screaming from the mountaintop saying like “I am not this person. I didn't do this” rather than just saying “I'm not going to comment on it.”

PC: So as you say I mean these allegations - the high profile ones we heard of - they happen in [unintelligible]. You can work in a plastics factory in Manitoba and this kind of stuff is happening.

MICHELLE SHAUGHNESSY: Absolutely.

PC: But I want to get with the three of you, really into your work world, the life of a stand-up comic. In your case Michelle, what sorts of sexual behavior have you seen from your male colleagues that's not right?

MICHELLE SHAUGHNESSY: Well they can say whatever they want and then just try to hide it under the guise of ‘oh it's a joke we're all comics’. Like they can make inappropriate comments while they bring us up on stage, they can make inappropriate comments while they're exerting us from stage. You know I've seen it where a newer female comic hasn't done that well. The MC has said something like “Oh sorry about that. She got on stage because she gave me a blowjob.” Like things like that you know. And who are we going to complain to. Like not like factories or offices we don't have any department. We don't really have like a one set person that we're supposed to call and voice our complaints too.

PC: Have you had personal experience with this stuff?

MICHELLE SHAUGHNESSY: Yes absolutely. I think ranging from little things like that with male comics making jokes about hooking up or things like that. I know there was one incident where a colleague who was a friend, like I think it was kind of like the equivalent of like a drunk dial type thing. Actually sent me like a picture of their penis like the middle of the night, when obviously they had been drinking too much and I was like “okay, that's an inappropriate thing to do” and that I had spoken to some of the other ladies about it. And it happened to a few of us with like the same person. So I guess they just thought “I'll send this to a few people and whoever gets the response gets me.” You know but again like you can mention it to these guys and their first defence is “were all comics. It's a joke.”

PC: Rebecca Kohler, what's been your experience as a comedian?

REBECCA KOHLER: I think Michelle and I have a similar background and, Aisha, I don't believe - like we tour with comedy chains and I think there is a different culture there. We're like constantly - I was sat in the back of cars and often when you're a woman, it's literally like you're not there and you just listen to men talk in a number of interesting colorful ways about, for instance, other women or their sex lives, etc. You're kind of exposed to a side of a conversation that you wouldn't normally be exposed to. And when it is apparent that you're in the car or in the room, sometimes though that colorful conversation gets turned on you. And as Michelle said, it's always a joke.

PC: What do you say when someone says “it's a joke”? It's not a joke to you. Do you say anything to them?

REBECCA KOHLER:: It's really hard. And that's why this is such an interesting time because since Weinstein and Louis C.K. W're allowed now to say “hey no it's not a joke. It's not okay.” But up until very recently if you are like “well it's not funny.” You just sounded like a whiny Wendie or you sounded like a troublemaker or complain or you know. People would not want to work with you if you cause trouble. I mean like how it is all over society. So yes if you said “well it's not a joke. It's not funny,” you're not going to be taken seriously. It's a tricky situation.

PC: Tricky because you're not seen as being able to keep up with the boys if you kind of…

GUESTS: [Cross talking] Yes. Exactly. Yes.

PC: Aisha have you ever been sexually harassed or assaulted by fellow comic?

AISHA ALPHA: Yes. I mean it's interesting because when before all of this happened I was thinking “Oh wow it must be…” because you know I didn't I didn't do the same kind of touring that that Rebecca and Michelle did. So I had heard so many stories from different people and these horrible things that had happened. And I remember thinking like “wow I'm really lucky that I didn't go through that on a regular basis and having to go in in cars surrounded by guys who are constantly trying to send pictures or like say inappropriate things.” And then as these allegations came out and people talked about the experiences that they had, I realized I had experienced things that never even registered as being abusive towards me. And it was really fascinating in a horrible way, to realize that I'm a very outspoken person. I have been in lots of male dominated industries. I played soccer and men's league overseas. So I've been around like sort of the locker room talk and like guys being the epitome of like the stereotypical masculine guy. And so I can really like kind of hold my own in that space and speak up for myself. But I had an experience that I didn't even think about where I went to watch a comedy show with a friend of mine. And you know there had been a time in the past where we had been talking about how we liked each other and stuff but nothing ever happened. We never really got together. And I went to go to a comedy show with him and I had a boyfriend the time. So I made it really clear before we went. Like “just want to make sure this is not a date. I have a boyfriend,” and it was like made to seem like “oh God I was not asking on a date and it wasn't this and this.” But when we got there I realized like something was off. I don't know if he was drunk or had taken something or whatever but he kept making these advances. And I was like well “Dude. I'm with somebody obviously I don't want to be doing, engaging in this.” But then we got into the comedy show and I feel like it was like a purposeful move in some ways, where we went into a comedy show where you know we're in the back corner in a room that's dark where everyone's meant to be quiet. And as a comedian I'm not going to interrupt the show for any reason. I'm not going to you know cause a kerfuffle. But as soon as those lights went down I felt the hand on my leg. And then when I pushed it away and said “I didn't want that,” Then I felt more sort of like pressuring and pushing and then I felt him talking to me and said “come on” and grabbing my face and just like things like “just give me one kiss” and stuff. Like stuff that was just so horrible and ridiculous that, in the moment, I remember just thinking like “what is going on? Am I on a prank show? What's really happening here?” Because it was a friend of mine. So it was really really hard to deal with. And then eventually I sort of like really got assertive and said “look like you need to stop this right now.” And it was like a switch flipped and he snapped out of it and I felt like he just got really embarrassed and ashamed and said “I've got to leave right now” and he left. But it left me and this wake of feeling ashamed, feeling embarrassed. People around us were looking back and seeing what was going on. I felt like I was going to cry. I felt like I was going to scream. I felt really like just put in this position where you feel powerless. And as a person, like a woman who is just powerful and feels like you know in charge of my life, it was a real shock to the system. And I even question it like “should I leave the comedy?” You know the comedy show and decided that no I wasn't going to let it stop my night and I stayed and tried to like find that strength again. But then what do you do afterwards. I didn't tell anybody. I didn't complain. I told my boyfriend about it. I told a couple of friends about it. But this is a person who has more power than me, who is more established, works on big shows and he is really loved in the community and it's like what's the choice there? Do I speak up or not?

PC: So help me understand that. Michelle Shaughnessy, this ‘I can't speak up because the fellow comedian, who is a guy, actually has some power over my career’.

MICHELLE SHAUGHNESSY: Absolutely.

PC: These are not your bosses. These are your colleagues. So explain to me what the power looks like?

MICHELLE SHAUGHNESSY: Well I mean I think – Trying kind of put it into words but I think it's like all those women who said that they didn't speak up about the C.K. thing for so long because they didn't want to get blacklisted from the industry. It's kind of that but on a smaller scale obviously where we are in the positions that we are. But it's the same thing. It's like if you say one thing, it's kind of like that fear that nobody is going to want to work you or work with you. Like I remember complaining when I was very young, on went to my first tour is like there are a lot of places. Not so much anymore but you have to share comedy condos. You just have to be in condos with people you didn't really know. I remember being like in my early 20s and it was when my first tour and one of the males was very inappropriate. Like he would like watch porn in front of me and walk around in his underwear and I'm like “Okay. This is not acceptable.” And I complained and my complaint letter, instead of going through the proper channels and that should have, actually got forwarded to him and he never got reprimanded. He sent me a scathing e-mail saying “how could you complain about this. This is the way it is.” And I from the company that I worked for got called the diva, because I said I don't want to see an Kano's anymore with men, I'm not comfortable. And they said “well then maybe you just can't do two tours, maybe you're not…” you know so we got turned around on. So that kind of put a fear onto me of complaining. So I am like “okay, are people not going to want to work with me now? Our company is not going to want to work me.” So I got it instilled that in me at a very young age of just keep my mouth shut. And I remember telling an older female comic about it and that was her attitude too. She was like well this is just how it is. I'm like “okay well I guess this is just how it is.”

PC: You know you said, all three of you said, that you heard ‘this is just the way it is. I was just joking’. I mean you work in a business that is not quote unquote ‘normal work culture’ in the sense that there are jokes being made and many times about sex and sexual things and about other people and things like that. So you're in a comedy celebrated pushing boundaries. Aisha Alpha, what impact does that have on male comics and playing into all of this?

AISHA ALPHA: Well I think an impact not just on male comments but on all the comics because we're encouraged in our job to push boundaries. And for that to be allowed and that it's very important and comedy for people to be able to say offensive things and you know say things that are unexpected. And we all fight for that on a daily basis to have that freedom. But that trickles down as well into a culture of pushing boundaries with people as well and with actions. And so like Michelle's saying people do things and then there's this ‘well I was just kidding’. I pushed a boundary. I have pushed it too far. I've offended somebody, they spoken up. Well that is just what we do. That's just comedy. Like get over it. As if this is just something we have to accept and so then we have to choose. Like are we going to call them out and stop this like sort of be a thorn in the side of the system that we're trying to encourage to be boundary pushing and to be you know really calling people out. And then are we going to be the person who stops that system from rolling forward?

PC: And so now as we get this quote unquote ‘watershed this tipping point’ many people think when it comes to this misconduct and stuff, Rebecca Kohler what happens now for you in the comedy world when you come up against these things? What are you going to do?

REBECCA KOHLER: Well I mean I have to say that things have already I think changed a lot. They're not, obviously not, fixed. But I find the culture already more conducive to being a woman. What would I do differently? I'm also hoping the conversation always goes you know with sexual assault. Is it a woman's job to change it or is it a man's job to change it? I think I'll feel more confident to speak up and I think also if we're going to talk about ‘well I'm just joking’ maybe if somebody makes an inappropriate gesture or comment to me I can say “Oh what are you doing, Harvey Weinstein?” And then I can say ‘just joking’ but I think we have a lot of fodder and a lot more- We have a lot more power now where it used to be this kind of you know I mean Harvey Weinstein was an open secret. Sexual harassment has been an open secret in society since I think probably the beginning of time. So I think now it's not a secret anymore. It's happening it happens everywhere. And now we have the language and the strength to call it for what it is.

PC: Michelle Shaughnessy what would you like to see change in the work world that you exist in, the comedy world?

MICHELLE SHAUGHNESSY: I think there needs to be a better system for if things do happen and if you do feel uncomfortable. Because the way it's set up now there's really nobody to talk to. There's nobody to voice your complaint to. And I think some of the more experienced senior people, it's kind of like that thing if you see something say something. And I think until the top people kind of start taking it seriously and maybe take stock of their actions, it kind of needs to trickle down. Because I think these young up and comers see the people that they admire are behaving in a certain way and they start to mirror it. And like Rebecca said, it is starting to get a little better because I think number one people are fearful. I think that's a big thing. [Laughter] I think they've seen things that are happening and I know every guy in my life is starting to stop and ask themselves “oh my god am I one of the bad ones? Have I done things that I don't know?” And I think that is trickling down into comedy. So I just think maybe these people who are great comedians need to start behaving a bit better and that will trickle down. And I think the clubs that do work people, the chains of comedy clubs, they need to have a better system in place for people that do complain and take it a bit more seriously.

PC: We'll have to leave it there. Thank you to all three of you, appreciate your time.

GUESTS: [Cross talking] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

PC: Aisha Alpha is an L.A. based Canadian comedian actor. She's in L.A. Rebecca Kohler is a Canadian stand-up comic actor and writer. She too is in L.A. and Michelle Shaughnessy is a stand-up comic and writer she's here in Toronto. Well for one more comment on this matter let's hear from the Canadian and current queen of comedy Sam B. A word of warning here, Sam B does refer to a sexual act that has been in the news lately.

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Hey everyone. With all these big sexual harassment cases going public. Men are getting concerned about how they can avoid being accused. Some have even stopped having solo meetings with women at all, which is great for women's careers. Thanks guys. [Laughter] So, I have some business advice. [Unintelligible] as I am a big comedy star/slash Hollywood executive and I found that it's quite easy not to masturbate in front of my employees [laughter]. In fact it's one of the easiest things I don't do. Every day I wake up get dressed take the subway to work and then don't masturbate in front of anyone [laughter and applause]. Next time you get the urge to masturbate just ask yourself “Am I in front of an employee or a colleague?” And if the answer is ‘yes’ don't just don't.

PC: That is Canadian comedian Sam B. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. If you want to weigh in on anything you hear on this program, please do so. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC, you can find us on Facebook or e-mail us from our website. It is cbc.ca/thecurrent and once you there click on the Contact link. We'll be back just after the news.

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Canadian Hassan Diab remains in prison after French court blocks release for 8th time

Guests: Rania Tfaily, Donald Bayne

PC: Hi I'm Pia Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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PC: Still to come, a single Bitcoin today is worth about 10,000 dollars. And by all appearances it's only skyrocketing. Some say a single Bitcoin is destined to be worth six or even seven figures. If that is, a bubble doesn't burst and wipe out all its value. In half an hour we'll find out more about what's behind the volatile price swings at the crypto-currency that some hope will be the future of money. But first justice delayed.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: A Lebanese Canadian who is the main suspect in a 1980 bombing, that killed four people outside of Paris Synagogue, has arrived in Paris and will be questioned in court on Saturday.

VOICE 2: Lebanese Canadian Hassan Diab arrived in Paris Saturday. The bombing he's accused of killed four people outside a synagogue in a wealthy 16th arrondissement of Paris. On the final day of the Jewish festival.

VOICE 3: Unfortunately in this case we now have, in my view, a classic recipe for the wrongful conviction of a Canadian.

PC: It is a story that has been playing out for a decade and this month it took yet another turn. Hassan Diab is a Lebanese Canadian citizen and a former university professor in Ottawa. But for the past three years he has been sitting in solitary confinement in a Paris prison. He has yet to face trial in France, despite being extradited there from Canada three years ago. Last week a French judge ordered him released, just as three other French judges already have, a total of 8 times. But yet again that decision was immediately appealed. And Hassan Diab remains behind bars. He steadfastly denies any role in the 1980 Paris synagogue bombing that killed four people and has maintained his innocence throughout.

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This is Hassan Diab. I had nothing to do with what the French authorities alleged against me. I'm not responsible for what they claim. I was not in France on October 3^rd, 1980 when the hateful the attack against the synagogue in Paris took place. I very strongly condemn that attack.

PC: Well Hassan Diab’s wife, Rania Tfaily, is an associate professor at Carleton University in its sociology department. She and Mr. Diab’s Canadian lawyer, Donald Bayne, have been calling for Canada to do more to help bring Mr. Diab home. Rania Tfaily Ranja is in our auto a studio and Don Bayne is in our New York studio. Hello to both of you.

DONALD BAYNE: Good morning.

RANIA TFAILY: Good morning.

PC: Rania Tfaily, eight times, eight times judges in France have ordered your husband to be released. He is still in prison there. What has this been like for you?

RANIA TFAILY: It has been very hard because there is documented evidence that he was not in France at that time and it is not to me who was saying this. It is not his lawyers who are saying this. These are the findings of two French anti-terrorism investigative judges who interviewed witnesses, looked at the official documents and stated clearly that there is consistent evidence that he is innocent. And it has been hard to understand or try to make sense of why he's still in prison. You know more than 20 hours in a cell, all by himself. He's away from us thousands of miles. He doesn't have family there. He doesn't have friends. He doesn't have any form of social interaction or emotional or psychological support. You know he's abandoned there, he is like in a dark hall.

PC: And for you and your children this must be very difficult.

RANIA TFAILY: It is hard because you know you always hope that rationality will prevail. And you know here in Canada, the extradition judge found that the evidence is very problematic. He call it suspect and we have the findings of French judges in France and just trying to make sense of it.

PC: Don Bayne, this is an ongoing long story and lots of legal things. But let's just step back and start kind of at the beginning. I mean how did Hassan Diab - who says he wasn't even in France when this bombing happened - How did he get implicated in the 1980 Paris bombing of the synagogue in the first place?

DONALD BAYNE: There are basically two pillars to the initial French case. One is secret intelligence that is not evidence at all and the French don't know where it came from. It was information from a foreign intelligence agency. And it's simply accusatory. It offers no evidence. It just suggested that a person named Hassan was involved in in the 1980 bombing. The other pillar of evidence was purported handwriting comparison. Two French so-called handwriting experts had identified five block printed words by the mystery man, who signed in at the hotel, who was part of the bombing in Paris, as being identified as being the handwriting of Hassan Diab from his Syracuse University Ph.D. application. The problem was - and it was disclosed when we called numerous international handwriting experts – the comparison handwriting the French were using wasn't Hassan Diabs at all. It was his ex-wife's. And so the French had identified his ex-wife as the 40 to 45 year old man who signed in at the hotel. And by the way Hassan Diab was 26 years old.

PC: And where was he at the time, Don Bayne. If he wasn't in France, where was he?

DONALD BAYNE: He was studying for his exams in Lebanon in Beirut, at the University of Beirut. Not only studying he was writing them. And there's documented proof that he sat and wrote all his exams. And plus there's independent witness confirmation to the investigative judge that he was there and was seen there. And this was at a time when this 40 to 45 year old man, who participated in the bombing, was in Paris. As I say Dr. Diab was 26 at that time. And I should add there's one other very important objective piece of evidence; there is a fingerprint that the French authorities have from this man. And it does not match Hassan Diab. He is excluded as being the source of fingerprint.

PC: Okay. Given what you all that you have just said, Don Bayne, what kind of evidence then did the Canadian courts look at in deciding - few years ago - to extradite a Canadian citizen to France?

RANIA TFAILY: They looked at nothing more than- Canadian extraditions are based on what is called a record of the case. Canadians are liable to be extradited to a foreign country not on sworn evidence. And that may surprise Canadians to hear. A foreign state need only submit a written documents signed by a foreign official claiming ‘we have a case against this man’ and the extradition tests in Canada are so lamentably low, that Canadians are liable to be extradited quite unconstitutionally.

PC: Well explain that to me because as a layperson what I'm hearing from you, Don Bayne, is that basically a foreign government sign papers says “hey we accuse one of your citizens of doing this in our country send them over.” What are the safe cards that we haven't counted. I know you say they're low but there must be some.

DONALD BAYNE: You know for years judges who sit in extradition have regarded what they do as rubber stamping applications for extradition. There was a constitutional challenge to the extradition process in Canada and the Supreme Court purported to save the extradition system, saying no there must be evidence that the claims of the foreign state are reliable. That is to say, their evidence must be reliable. The problem is it is presumed to be reliable and the onus is put on the person who is sought to prove that it's unreliable. And the courts have created such a barrier to that that the test of man proving manifest unreliability, while you can imagine it being hard for any person, has now been made impossible. If the evidence in the Diab case was not manifestly unreliable, handwriting that was compared that actually wasn't the accused person’s at all and secret intelligence, that in Western democracies is not allowed as evidence, because it isn't, then what is unreliable evidence? No there's simply no protection.

PC: Okay. I want to play some tape for both of you. This is Julien Heuty. He's the deputy secretary of the general prosecutor of Paris which appealed the decision, the latest one to release Hassan Diaz. And here he is. He provided two reasons for that.

SOUNDCLIP

If we release him we have no absolutely no guarantees that he will be judged in France. The court says that he has no home in France, no job in France, and there are too many risks that he flies away. The second reason is that in France we have a particular article in the penal code, and when there is a crime we have to take into account the exceptional public disorder. And what the court says is that we are in front of some crime of an enormous gravity - it's a terrorist attack - and we if we release him now we can cause a new public disorder

PC: Okay, so he's making two points there and let me go through both them, first with you Rania Tfaily. Heuty says that your husband is a flight risk from France, if they let him out. What do you say to that?

RANIA TFAILY: You know I would like to point out that Hassan knew about the accusations in 2007. It was 13 month before he was arrested.

PC: While he was in Canada.

RANIA TFAILY: He was in Canada. A French journalist flew to tell him that he's under investigation and that France is going to seek his extradition. He stayed in Canada for 13 months. He had a legal passport. He had a valid Canadian passport. He did not flee. He didn't do anything. He stayed here. During the extradition hearing he was released on bail. He abided by every single [unintelligible].

PC: In France.

RANIA TFAILY: No in Canada.

PC: And he was also released very briefly out on bail in France, as well was he not?

RANIA TFAILY: Yes he was. And in France we have found also support for him of an academic – a well-known academic - and his family who has provided documents that they will host him. We have found a place for him what he can do unpaid internship because he's not allowed to work. We had arranged with a professor at Carlton University that she's going to call out with him on research. We have done everything possible in order to ensure the courts that- He was never a flight risk. If he were to flee. He would have fled Canada in 2007 but he never did.

PC: Okay Don Bayne. The other point that the lawmaker from Paris makes is about public disorder. They have a right to hold him because they're worried about causing public disorder. What do you say to that?

DONALD BAYNE: How can it be a threat to public order to release an innocent man? Remember the designated investigator here is a French judge. There are two - a senior and a vice investigator. Both have determined, and it's their words not mine, corroborated and consistent evidence of the man's innocence. So how can it be contrary to public order to release an innocent man, unless you no longer believe in the rule of law, unless this man is in fact a political prisoner in a country that is - we all understand - rocked by terrorism and doesn't want to appear soft on terror and is at the point of detaining innocent people.

PC: And that's what you're suggesting is happening.

DONALD BAYNE: That's what I'm suggesting. It appears is happening because logic tells you it cannot be a threat to public order to release an innocent man.

PC: OkayI want to play just one more bit of tape from the same prosecutor Julien Heuty the deputy secretary of the general prosecutor of Paris. And here he's going to be talking about why they appealed the latest release of Hassan Diab.

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A few weeks ago they find another thing, another thing I think it was some stuff about Israelian secret service. And we have to work on this piece of information before sending Hassan Diab in front of a court or deciding not to do it.

PC: Okay. Donald Payne So he's saying they have new information. It's about Israeli secret agents. What do you know about this new information that was presented to the prosecution?

DONALD BAYNE: It's neither new nor is it evidence. It's the same recycled discredited bold intelligence allegations that are not supported by any evidence at all that surfaced in 1999. There's nothing new here at all, and it was a request by those agents that the judge keep this secret as if it was some sort of new revelation. He did not keep it secret he told the French defense counsel. They told Hassan what it was. He in turn told Rania who explained it to me. And it's nothing at all. It's the same recycled stuff. But it was an attempt to put pressure on the French judge and this is what we're concerned about. These judges have repeatedly said the man is innocent. This is the eighth time that the prosecutor has acted to keep him in prison. And we're worried that political pressure is what is going to carry the day here.

PC: I want to ask you Rania about the Canadian government, because both you and Don Bayne your husband's lawyer have been asking the Canadian government to get involved. How much support, Rania, have you received the Canadian government on your husband's case?

RANIA TFAILY: Initially there wasn't support. In the last few months that has been more interest in helping Hassan. But so far it hasn't been effective. So I did meet with Minister Freeland. She knew about that case. She was very well briefed. She knew all of the details about the release orders, consistent evidence of his innocence and the fact that he was extradited from Canada based on suspect evidence. And she told me that she raised concerns about Hassan’s case with her counterparts. But despite all of that, I mean here he's entering his fourth year in prison, and despite even the recent release order, he's still there. And what does being done in my opinion has not been enough. And it is very important because it was the Canadian government who extradite citizen and they knew that the evidence is problematic. It is very important that you know they take more responsibility to bring an innocent person back. They don't let him language that in prison and wash their hands as if this is not their issue or their problem.

PC: And the department Global Affairs says that it is closely monitoring your husband's situation, as you say you met with them minister Freeland earlier this month. It is important to point out this. This case began under a different Canadian government, former Justice Minister Rob Nicholson who signed Hassan Diab’s extradition order. Donald Bayne how much power then does this current government have on decisions that were made by the previous government as it pertains to this case?

DONALD BAYNE: Well I think the current government, while they have a different attitude toward this case, feels that they're hamstrung in what they can do in terms of any overt interference in French judicial process. The problem is it has ceased to be legal and logical. It is now at a stage where at a very high level, a prime ministerial level, some message of concern and objection should be raised to the highest levels in France because it is neither legal - because the French lawyers tell us this is absolutely unprecedented in French legal history, that the investigative judge has ordered release because of innocence and not once but eight times the prosecutor acts to keep the man in prison. The other reason of course that well to release him would cause public disorder in France, is neither legal nor logical. So it's time for the Canadian government to step up to the plate and not let this injustice continue.

PC: Okay, I just want to mention we did request interviews with the PMO the prime minister's office and Minister of Justice Jody Wilson Raybould. The Department Justice sent a statement. I'm going to read just a part of it. Here's what it said: “Canadian law requires the foreign country to provide some evidence that would justify prosecution if the conduct had occurred in Canada. The requesting countries not expected to provide Canada with enough evidence to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt at the extradition hearing. The full evidence is heard by the court and the requesting state at the trial.” Don Bayne, that's essentially what you said earlier that the extradition didn't need a lot of stuff and the Canadian government of today, of 2017, is saying “we can't do much more than that”. What do you want it to do?

DONALD BAYNE: Object at the highest levels and bring him home.

PC: What does that mean for you? Where do you see that? Where are you drawing that from? The Prime minister calls the president of France and says “Send him home. He's a Canadian citizen”?

DONALD BAYNE: Yes. I mean this is now beyond beyond legal and logical. It's got into diplomatic and political. You've got a Canadian who's been declared innocent by the investigators in France and yet he's being held because of the political situation in France. That's not legal. That's political. It's time for the Prime Minister to act.

PC: You know we saw this week in different countries the U.S. president to the Chinese leader getting the freedom of four Americans. Is that what you're talking about, seeing that that political pressure being put on in a way similar to that?

DONALD BAYNE: Yes because while it's not right for foreign politicians to interfere in domestic judicial matters, it has ceased being legal and logical. It is clearly now political. When you say to release this innocent man would cause public disorder.

RANIA TFAILY: Can I add first?

PC: Yes please. Go ahead.

RANIA TFAILY: I would like to add a comment regarding this statement by the justice minister. I'm not sure whether she's aware, but it was federal attorneys in her department. I knew it was the previous government but they when they knew that it was revealed that the handwriting are basically bogus, because they were based on samples that you had not even written by Hassan. They wrote to the French authorities and asked them to bring additional handwriting evidence against Hassan, because otherwise they are going to face very uphill battle in getting him extradited. So Huston's extradition if it were not for this desperate intervention by the Department of Justice to bring additional evidence against him would not have happened. So it is not just France submitted this evidence and it was out of the hands of the Department of Justice. They took active part in order to get additional evidence against him knowing how bogus the handwriting evidence is.

PC: What would you like to see the current Canadian government do now?

RANIA TFAILY: You know I don't know the details of the politics. All I care about is that Hassan an innocent person should come home. He should not have been extradited in the first place. He should not be spending time alone, in a very dark place. He should be home with his family with his friends in his country where he belongs. I don't know how they plan to do it. This is what I would like to see.

PC: How hopeful are you that that's going to happen?

RANIA TFAILY: I mean it has been ups and downs. I mean there are times in which I feel hopeful. There are times in which I feel they are going they're going to order a trial. He's going to be railroaded into a wrongful conviction and that he's going to spend the rest of his life in prison, all alone. And I did mention this to that to the minister Freeland's when I met her. I told her if you don't help him now this is what is going to happen.

PC: DON Bayne, briefly how hopeful are you about Hassan Diab’s chances of getting back to Canada to his home?

DONALD BAYNE: You know we've never given up hope and we won't give up hope and we won't ever give up trying.

PC: Hopeful?

DONALD BAYNE: I would say- because I believe in justice. I believe that. I've been disappointed over the course of a long legal career on occasion. But yes we have to be hopeful because we're going to continue to fight and we're going to bring him home. We need help in that regard.

PC: We will stay on top of this story. Thank you to both of you for joining me.

RANIA TFAILY: Thank you very much.

DONALD BAYNE: Thank you very much.

PC: Rania Tfaily is the wife of Hassan Diab and she is an associate professor at Carleton University sociology department. She's in our Ottawa studio. Don Bayne is Mr. Diab’s Canadian lawyer. He was in our New York studio. All right. I have just a moment now to let you know about an interview coming up Monday on The Current. Anna Maria Tremonti will be joined by Commander Scott Kelly.

PC: That is Commander Scott Kelly. He will be here on Monday talking with Anna Maria Tremonti about his new book. It is called Endurance. That is Monday here on The Current. All right. Before that coming up in our next half hour a journalist in Harare recounts the abuse he received at the hands of soldiers, as the military was taking control of Zimbabwe, earlier this week. Plus what's behind the soaring price of the digital currency Bitcoin and will it just keep going up. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. We're back in just a bit.

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'I'm still feeling the pain': Journalist says he was severely beaten at Zimbabwe army press conference

Guest: Columbus Mavhunga

PC: I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. The situation is still unclear in Zimbabwe but the country is certainly in the midst of a political crisis. In the early hours of Wednesday morning, a general took to the country's airwaves to announce that long serving President Robert Mugabe was under house arrest, although today he has made his first public appearance since then at a university graduation ceremony. But going back to that fateful night, just a few nights ago, a few hours before Major General S.B. Moyo issued his special bulletin on Zimbabwe's state broadcaster My next guest says he was detained and beaten by the Zimbabwean army. Columbus Mavhunga is a Zimbabwean journalist and we have reached him in Harare. Hello.

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: Hi Piya.

PC: What happened to you on Tuesday night?

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: Well I was assaulted by army officials and when I responded to a call for a press conference.

PC: You and your fellow journalist went to a press conference that had been called by an army. And when you got there what happened to you?

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: Well when we got there they said well “what brings you here this late?” Then we said “we have come for the press conference”. They said “okay. Get out of your car. Get out of the car,” And then they asked us to sit down while the search for weapons in the car that we were in. And for me that was not a problem. Until they say “you have to sit down on the floor.” So they search for the weapons and then when one of them said there's nothing. Then one of them says “Welcome to the press conference. Please lie on the ground facing down.”

PC: And you say these were clearly identified soldiers of the Zimbabwean army.

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: Yes. They were in army fatigue, holding guns, I mean there was no debate.

PC: And then they tell you to do what sir?

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: They asked for our names. We identified ourselves. Then they said “Can you produce your IDs and press cards?” Then we give them. They said “No these are fake. We want your new identification cause we know from your work which is the central intelligence organization.” Then I was shocked. I said “I've never worried for that organization and I'm not a member of it”. They said we had been sent to spy on the army which was not the case at all.

PC: And this is happening outside your car and what are the soldiers then do?

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: By then we will lay on the ground facing down on our tummies. And then they started beating us up. Anything that they had, with sticks but sticks, and at times they were using the guns that they had and someone was even saying “Hey, you can shoot them.” Then I was just talking to my colleague [unintelligible] when they were saying “shoot them.” He was saying “I just said let them shoot me in the head. I have had enough pain.” And talking about pain, it was really painful. I'm still feeling the pain. I think it's more emotional than physical pain.

PC: How long did that they beat you for?

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: I think it was like about 15 to 20 minutes. Very good 15 to 20 minutes of torture. And I say this is how a person dies. Then I think it's not right.

PC: And as you say Colombus, they were beating you with their guns, with their rifles and with sticks or whatever they could find.

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: Yes it was really painful. Some would even step on the wall when our bums which was the area that they were concentrating on mainly to beat us up. They would even step on you while walking to the next person because we were lying parallel to each other.

PC: You must have been terrified.

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: It was. After I'd gone for treatment, the doctor said I'm supposed to go for counseling. He was saying I must've been hallucinating and he was advising that I should seek counseling so that I get over the trauma of that that I went through.

PC: What kind of injuries do you have?

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: They had a part on my bum. Those were that is where they concentrated being on. I've been struggling to walk I've been struggling to sit. And on my left ankle I think at some point when I wasn't using my sheet to block the beatings on my bottom, I think they landed there once or twice, I still have some pain there. And then on my hand, both hands actually, I happy that now after two days, I can now lift the phone with my left hand. And the doctor suspected that I had a broken arm and we had to go for a scan and an X-ray. Fortunately he said there's fracture. And my thumb was beaten also as I was trying to block from being beaten on the bum. So my right thumb nail is gone. It should be peeling off in a moment.

PC: I am sorry. Why do you think this happened?

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: I really don't know to be honest. I cannot have like a definite figure. It could be that there was instruction from whoever to say these people must not come. Maybe they are not happy about people will work for the foreign media. But to be honest I really don't have a definite answer to say why they beat us up. It could be some people just overzealous, I've no idea.

PC: And on Tuesday your phone was taken from you, some money and your press accreditation was also taken by the men who beat you. Yes?

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: Yes. I had 157 US dollars. Then I had my iPhone and also they took my press card and they haven't been returned.

PC: And, as you very well know, the situation in Zimbabwe is very precarious and volatile. What concerns do you have for yourself as a journalist right now?

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: I think that my concern especially is we go towards the election in Zimbabwe in 2018, we hope that press freedom, media freedom is respected.

PC: Mr. Mavhunga, please take care of yourself.

COLUMBUS MAVHUNGA: Thank you.

PC: Columbus Mavhunga is a freelance journalist in Harare, Zimbabwe. And just to bring you the latest in Zimbabwe, what we're hearing is that the country's war vets who have been long time Robert Mugabe supporters now say that the president will not be allowed to stay in power. Parts of Mugabe's own Zanu-PF party are also calling on him to resign.

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Betting on bitcoin: Why the hyped digital currency is also causing concern

Guests: Timothy Lee, Steve Stecklow

PC: You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current on CBC Radio 1 and Sirius XM. I am Piya Chattopadhyay.

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VOICE 1: The price of Bitcoin has soared a whopping 550%.

VOICE 2: I want to say that it's been a roller coaster ride for crypto-currency traders and investors but the reality is it's pretty much a straight shot higher over the last few weeks.

VOICE 3: This actually is a profound revolution in the world.

VOICE 4: Something goes up 700% in a year it's by definition speculative. So anybody who thinks that buying something that it's a stable investment is deluding themselves.

VOICE 5: You know how controversial this can be. Jamie Diamond is a total fraud. You know Larry Fink has said that this is an index to money laundering. Warren Buffett has said he wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole.

VOICE 6: I could care less what Bitcoin trades for, how it trades, why it trades, who trades it. If you are stupid enough to buy, you pay the price for it one day.

PC: Well plenty of hype and alarm in the financial industry over the soaring price of the digital currency Bitcoin. Today the price of one Bitcoin is about 10,000 Canadian dollars. That is up more than 2,500 dollars in just the space of the last few days. The total market for the digital currency is now in the tens of billions of dollars and as its value balloons, so do concerns about a potential crash. With no central authority regulating Bitcoin transactions prices are volatile. But it's that lack of oversight that makes the digital currency attractive to so many who believe it is the future of money. Timothy Lee is a senior tech policy writer for Ars Technica and he is in our Washington studio. Timothy Hi

TIMOTHY LEE: Hi good morning.

PC: For some people it's going to be a refresher for some of it, it's going to be the basics. Take us through Bitcoin. What exactly is it?

TIMOTHY LEE: Sure. So if you think about a conventional financial network, like Visa or MasterCard, There's a company that runs the network and controls it. And the idea of Bitcoin is that they figured out how to build a payment network where there's nobody in charge. There's just a network of peer to peer computers that process payments without anybody being in charge. And a lot of people like this idea because they don't trust governments, they don't trust big banks and this provides a more decentralized way to make payments around the world.

PC: Who created this thing?

TIMOTHY LEE: The inventor was one by the name of Satoshi Nakamoto and he was actively involved for the first four years of the currency, and then he stopped responding to emails. We still don't know what his real identity was.

PC: He was anonymous?

TIMOTHY LEE: He was anonymous.

PC: And what is the appeal of that for Bitcoin users?

TIMOTHY LEE: I don't think there is. That's just who created it. I don't know. I mean he is now probably worth billions of dollars. And so he might just not want the media attention and potential for people trying to rip him off that would come with being wealthy. He might just value privacy. He hasn't explained he just stopped responding to the communications.

PC: And as you say this was created. And people like it, who use it, because there is no sort of central authority. No real oversight. And you said you just kind of trade it on computers. So like how does that happen?

TIMOTHY LEE: So there are companies that provide Bitcoin and exchange services. So if you have dollars, U.S. or Canadian dollars, and you want to exchange them for Bitcoins there are companies - like there's a company called Coinbase that will accept one and give it the other. And then there are other companies allow merchants to accept Bitcoin payments and so many different retailers out there will accept that claim payments. Some people are trying to build international money transfer services. Like if you use Western Union or one of those kind of companies to send payments off and it costs pretty expensive and it takes a long time. And so some people believe that they are going to be the foundation for new more affordable and faster money for cash [unintelligible].

PC: So there's a lot of ways to get Bitcoin. Is there like a ledger or a central ledger that it's all shared honor? How does that work?

TIMOTHY LEE: So the foundation of Bitcoin is there is this shared ledger, as you said, called the block chain. And every 10 minutes there is a list of recent transactions that's added to this, in a way that all the computers kind of reach a consensus about which transactions to include. It makes the records, unlike Visa or MasterCard where records about who's made what transactions are secret, on the bitcoin network, all the transactions are public but the identities is not necessarily - the accounts are not connected to any particular person. And so in that sense it's…

PC: IT says what? My e-mail address?

TIMOTHY LEE: No it is just a string of numbers that corresponds to a cryptographic identity. But there is no necessarily real world identity connected to it.

PC: I don't use Bitcoins. So but if I wanted to and I go on the computer today and get some Bitcoin, what can I actually buy with it?

TIMOTHY LEE: So for example Overstock.com is a pretty popular retailer that supports Bitcoin and so you can buy anything they sell.

PC: Like what? My kids Christmas presents like what kinds of things do they sell?

TIMOTHY LEE: Yes. Like electronics. I mean there's thousands of vendors. So any category of food, clothing, anything like that. You can certainly buy with Bitcoin now.

PC: Okay. And as I said in the introduction one Bitcoin today is about 10,000 Canadian bucks. Why does this thing have so much value?

TIMOTHY LEE: I think a lot of it is speculative as some of the people in that intro said. I think people are betting that in the future this will be - some people see it as kind of the future of finance in the same way that the Internet is the future of communications. I think that might be a little bit overblown but they're just betting that the supply of bitcoins is fixed. And so if the network grows to accommodate more payments, the value of the big kids will have to go up. And so as people get more optimistic about it they bid up the price of it.

PC: And so there was recently this rift in, I guess what we call the Bitcoin community, what happened?

TIMOTHY LEE: Right now the Bitcoin network is limited in how many transactions it can process and what some people see that as a feature, because this peer to peer network one of the virtues of it is that anybody can participate. And the more transactions the network processes the more of computing resources you need to participate in this peer to peer network. And so there's been disagreements. Some people want to increase the number of transactions so that it can become this global network. Others worry that that will really change it, make it more like Visa or MasterCard where there's just a few companies in charge.

PC: Sounds a bit like a dispute over political ideology as much as anything.

TIMOTHY LEE: Yes, absolutely. Some of the early supporters of Bitcoin had this kind of libertarian ideology where they don't trust the government. They don't trust big banks. And I think you see in many of those people on this what's called the small block side; the people that don't want the Bitcoin network to grow too quickly because they're worried that you're going to end up with kind of the same thing you have with the conventional financial system, where a few big companies have too much control.

PC: And in this debate, this rift within the community of Bitcoin users, the purists won this latest round yes?

TIMOTHY LEE: Yes. So the mainstream Bitcoin network there was a big debate about whether to double the number of transactions that it could process. That ended up being too controversial, almost dropped. Now the big block side - as they call it - split off in August and did create their own rival version of Bitcoin called Bitcoin Crash that is currently not worth as much as the mainstream Bitcoin currency. But it could become more prominent in time, especially the thing they're worried about is that as the network becomes more congested, transactions will be slower and fees will go up. And it actually won't be a good user experience. And so if that were to happen, it's possible this rival version of Bitcoin could become more important in the long run.

PC: And just briefly what do you make of the jump in Bitcoin value that we've been seeing lately, this kind of 2,500 bucks over the last couple of days?

TIMOTHY LEE: It goes up and down and I don't think that the last few days is particularly significant. It goes up and down [unintelligible] but there's been at least for what people call Bitcoin bubbles, where it went way up and then it crashed and people said it's over for and over with, and then it goes up and goes way higher than the previous top. So it's now close to the record. I think people are just- I think people are very excited about the concept of crypto-currency, something you've seen the last couple of years, is that there's now a lot of competitors a bit of coin. It's open soft course so people can make other versions of it. And so there's a lot of kind of copycat ones that have interesting properties and I think that has kind of reflected back people becoming more interested in the original. It's just become a very famous thing on the Internet and a lot of people want to own a piece of it.

PC: Thank you for explaining this to me. I appreciate your time.

TIMOTHY LEE: Sure thank you. Timothy Lee is a senior tech policy writer for Ars Technica and he was in our Washington studio. Well as you may have gathered from what Tim was just saying there, an investment in itcoin can be extremely lucrative but also risky. Steve Stecklow has spent several months probing deeper into what he calls the Wild West of the Bitcoin economy. He is a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter with Reuters and he is in our London studio. Hello.

STEVE STECKLOW: Hi Piya. Great to be with you.

PC: Well I'm glad I understand this somewhat now better than I did before I started the last conversation. So now that we're here, you began your investigation by looking into crypto-currency exchange. So again help me out. What is that?

STEVE STECKLOW: So if anyone wants to participate in buying or selling Bitcoin, they typically turn to these exchanges. There's dozens and dozens of them all around the world and they act as kind of like brokerages where you would buy or sell stocks. The problem is that they're very lightly regulated at all. Often you don't even know who runs them, where they're really based. They're constantly being hacked. We calculated at Reuters that more than nine hundred eighty thousand Bitcoins have been stolen since I think 2011. That would be worth about seven billion dollars today.

PC: And so if I'm a Bitcoin user and there there's a hack. What recourse do I have as a customer if something like that happens or something goes wrong?

STEVE STECKLOW: If that happens you're completely at the mercy of the exchange. Some of these exchanges after being hacked, we found at least 10 of them, is simply closed. Most of them just disappear.

PC: So I just lose my money.

STEVE STECKLOW: Yes, you just lose your money. Now some of them, in some cases have come out with fairly complex schemes to reimburse customers but that's actually pretty rare.

PC: What is what is the appeal of Bitcoin? I mean Timothy was talking about that the outside of this sort of mainstream system and the non-fees and no big bank or reserve or something like that. Who is this appealing to?

STEVE STECKLOW: Well it originally appealed and to this day still does sort of people interested in technology, tech people. A number of people I interviewed who had lost a lot of money said “well I always saw it as a gamble”. We interviewed a guy who was a very early developer of Bitcoin who told us that he called it a thought experiment, that originally he never thought that it would become very popular like it has. And he described it originally as more of a hobby. Now you know since then it's drawn in a huge number of speculators. And I think the fact is that most of what goes on with Bitcoin today, it's not really for buying and selling things, or like echnically you could do that, I think it's mostly speculation and it's used by criminals. So you've probably heard about ransom ware where you turn on your computer one day and you got to pay someone in Bitcoin to be able to use that again. Companies like Overstock for example that your previous guest mentioned, yes, they accept Bitcoin but we calculated based on their own numbers that it was like a tiny fraction of 1 percent of their sales are in Bitcoin.

PC: So the criminal element to this or alleged criminal, is some people hold me hostage and say pay me in Bitcoin to get your computer released. How else do alleged criminal -What are they doing? Money laundering? What are they doing with it? I don't know nothing about money laundering, nut it sounds like it might be a good way to do that [laughs].

STEVE STECKLOW: Well there's no question a lot of money laundering goes on in Bitcoin. One of the issues here is you know - and we looked at this - what kind of due diligence do these exchanges do when they take on new customers. You know banks are required to know their customers. But Bitcoin exchanges unless they're like in the United States are probably aren't required to do that at all. Many of them simply require an e-mail address and some kind of name. There was testimony before the U.S. Congress in June that they often find when there's a crime that someone wrote Mickey Mouse or 123 Main Street or something like that. They do not ask for much to become a customer on the exchange. And there was a big exchange called BTC-e that she that the U.S. authorities shut down in July and said billions of dollars had been money laundered through there.

PC: I think it's because I've been watching Ozarks and I'm fascinated by money laundering right now. But let me just stay with that for one second, the criminal element. I mean it's appealing because as you say there's not a lot of regulation of this system. I guess you could probably make the same argument about cash though as a criminal rag and just money launder that way.

STEVE STECKLOW: That's true. But again, Iwant to get back to sort of investors and consumers in this. You know when you say make a transaction with your credit card that's fraudulent, if you report that the bank can reverse that and get your money back. There is no penalty. That can not happen with the Bitcoin block chain. Once the coin the digital coin is stolen that's it. Even if you can trace it you don't know who you are tracing it to. So you know what we looked at - you know most of the stories about Bitcoin, particularly now, tend to be about the price which way up it's gone up. You know you heard that in your intro, or who's the guy who invented it and no one knows that. What we looked at for, and it's a team at Reuters, the series is called Crypto0Casino. We’ve been looking at it since March or April. What we found is that there's basically no protection whatsoever for people who participate in this thing and partly again it's because you know there's no regulation.

PC: So I guess the question then becomes, because you call this the Wild West, what makes it worth the risk, other than it's kind of new and savvy and you know for people who are really into tech it's kind of cool, but like why do people take this risk? Why do they do it?

STEVE STECKLOW: Well I think they do it because when I started looking at this back in April, the price of Bitcoin was about $1000 and now it's over 7,000 U.S. dollars. So you know these days with interest rates you know sometimes below 1 percent. You know this is potentially a way to make a whole lot of money fast often anonymously. You may a lot of people there's evidence don't report it for tax purposes. Things like that.

PC: What are governments doing about it. Well this is something that I think caught the governments by surprise. They weren't really ready for it. For something to emerge you know in a few years and suddenly become worth tens of billions of dollars. So in the United States some of the agencies like the Securities and Exchange Commission have begun looking at Bitcoin. It's treated differently by different agencies; some consider of a commodity, some considered property. The European Union has draft legislation which would mostly deal with the issue of money laundering and require Bitcoin exchanges to know their customers better. In Japan I believe it may be the only country that's actually regulating exchanges but that literally just started. So it's unclear how successful that's going to be.

PC: What happened there. Talk about you know ‘the bubbles might burst. This thing might crash’ what happens if it crashes?

STEVE STECKLOW: Well we just did a story that ran yesterday about Mt. Gox, which was the world's biggest exchange up until 2014 when it crashed in spectacular fashion. And most of the Bitcoins were stolen. But again this shows the problems for investors. There are over 25,000 claimants in an incredibly complicated bankruptcy case in Tokyo right now. No one has gotten a single crypto-cent real or otherwise in the past three years. The trustee is sitting on 202,000 Bitcoins which are now worth about 1.6 billion U.S. dollars. But no one's gotten any of it. And as the story points out, that under Japanese bankruptcy law they're not going to benefit at all from the soaring price of Bitcoin. Their claims were priced three years ago when Bitcoin was about $483. But in the meantime they've gotten nothing. And we interviewed the guy who ran the Mt. Gox named Mark Karpeles we had a three hour interview with him. And by the way he's on trial for embezzlement and other crimes regarding Mt. Gox. He predicts that no one is going to get anything till at least 2020 and that's probably if they're lucky.

PC: Steve Stecklow thank you as well for helping us understand this.

STEVE STECKLOW: My pleasure.

PC: Steve Stecklow is an investigative reporter with Reuters. He was in our London studio and we have posted some links to Steve's investigative series about Bitcoin on our website. That is cbc.ca/thecurrent. If you use Bitcoin you can also get in touch with us or have some thoughts on it by going to our website or on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC or you can find us on Facebook. All right before we head out of here a word from the team that made The Current this week.

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YAMRI TADDESE: Hi. I'm Yamri Tadese one of the producers here at The Current. This week the show was produced by: Idella Sturino, Howard Goldenthal, Ines Colabrese, Willow Smith, Ashley Mak, Julian Uzielli, Kristin Nelson, Karin Marley, John Chipman and Pacinthe Mattar. And thanks to our network producers:Katy Parsons in Halifax and our network producers; Anne Penman in Vancouver, Michael O'Halloran in Calgary, Suzanne Dufresne in Winnipeg, Susan McKenzie in Montreal, and Mary-Catherine McIntosh in Halifax. The Current's writer is Peter Mitton. Our web producer are Lisa Ayuso and Sarah Claydon. Ruby Buiza is our interactive producer. Transcriptions are provided by Rasha Shehata and Luke Williams. Our technical producer is Gary Francis. Our presentation producer is Lara O'Brien. And our documentary editor is Liz Hoath. Our senior producers are Richard Goddard in Toronto and Cathy Simon in Vancouver. The executive producer of The Current is Kathleen Goldhar.

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PC: Well that is the current for this Friday. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for q. Guest host Ali Hassan is joined by actor Eric McCormack and Sunday at noon you can and should catch me in my regular gig hosting Out In The Open here on CBC Radio One. This weekend I'll be speaking with Captain John Joe Sark of the Mi’kmaq ground Council on P.E.I. He wants the name Amherst removed from the island's historic site Port-la-Joye–Fort Amherst. It is a namesake Lord Geoffrey Amherst who was once a celebrated British general but now he is at the center of debates for letters he wrote in the 1700s promoting biological warfare against indigenous people.

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Well you wonder whether he is speaking about the human beings or beasts to have a place in Mi’kmaq territory named for this genocidal tyrant would be equivalent to naming a park in Jerusalem after Hitler.

PC: How far should we go to rewrite history. I'll be asking that question Out In The Open this Sunday at noon and online later today at cbc.ca/open. I am Piya Chattopadhyay, thank you for sending us your ear here on the Friday edition of The Currents. Till Sunday.

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Friday November 17, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

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