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The Current Transcript for November 16, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

ROBERT MUGABE: Zimbabwe is for Zimbabwians. And Zimbabwe being a free and independent country cannot brook interference with its sovereignty

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: That's been President Robert Mugabe's mantra for decades,but this time those 'brooking interference' don't appear to be on the outside, but rather, inside his own ruling party.

And you know what they say about battles among brothers? With the 93-year-old Zimbabwe President curiously under house arrest, his military strongman seemingly in control and his one-time likely successor somewhere on the edges is this the end? Or just another twist in Mugabe's tenacious grip on power? We're asking in just a moment.

AMT: And then from a man with a relentless grip on a nation to another with terrifying control of his expansive family. Warren Jeffs had 78 wives, and dozens of children by the time U.S. authorities jailed him for the sexual assault of under-age girls he called his wives. But even from prison, he forced his will on his breakaway Mormon followers.

SOUNDCLIP

RACHEL JEFFS: I had five kids. And then we got told that we have relationships with our husbands anymore. No sex. We could only shake hands each other’s hands. He didn't want us to have what he couldn’t have in prison.

AMT: Rachel Jeffs the third of his 53 children did the unthinkable: she took her children and fled the Fundamentalist Church of Latter day Saints. Her story of brainwashing, abuse and hard won freedom in half an hour.

AMT: And when this woman got the details of a long lost relative, it affirmed her Indigenous connection to a history thousands of years old.

SOUNDCLIP

PEARL CALLAGHAN: Yes we do belong. Yes this is our traditional territory. And It's right in your bones, it's in your blood and you feel really good about it.

AMT: Pearl Callahan learned she's one of 17 indigenous people with a DNA link to the body of a man believed to have been frozen 300 years. Many wonders of history frozen in time are now appearing as massive ice patches and Yukon melt. In an hour, filmmaker Andrew Gregg on the unexpected side of climate change.

AMT: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Part 1: ‘It’s a coup’ Zimbabwe journalist on military takeover and President Mugabe’s house arrest

Guests: Tendai Marima, Florence Chideya, Peter Godwin

SOUNDCLIP

S.B. MOYO: To the generality of the people of Zimbabwe, we urge you to remain calm and limit unnecessary movement. To both our people and the world beyond our borders, we wish to make it abundantly clear that this is not a military takeover of government.

AMT: Well, that went out at 4:00 a.m. local time on Wednesday — a special bulletin on Zimbabwe's state broadcaster. Major General S.B. Moyo, a military spokesman assured his country and the world that whatever was happening, it was not a coup. But with the military in control of the airwaves and the president confined house arrest, it sure looked like the beginning of the end for the world's oldest head of state. Robert Mugabe has ruled Zimbabwe, sometimes with an iron fist, for nearly four decades. And it remains entirely unclear whether ousting President Mugabe would improve the lives of Zimbabweans. For the latest on the political crisis in Zimbabwe, I'm joined by Tendai Marima. She's a freelance reporter in Harare. Hello.

TENDAI MARIMA: Hello.

AMT: What's the latest you are hearing about the political crisis?

TM: Today seems to be a day of attempted mediations. At the moment, we've just come from a press conference that was conducted by the former Vice President of Zimbabwe Joice Mujuru, who was dismissed by President Mugabe in 2014 on allegations of corruption and attempting to topple him. And these are similar allegations that have also been waged against the former Vice President Emmerson Mnangagwa, who was dismissed a few weeks ago. Former Vice President Joice Mujuru has gone to form her own opposition alliance, which she leads, which is called The People's Rainbow Alliance. She has said that she is coming together with other opposition parties and they're trying to push forward for a resolution to this stalemate between President Mugabe and the military. And what they're hoping for is that it might open the way for there to be a transition. In that she means the setting up of a transitional administration. That would be a broad-based that would include various political stakeholders and also members of the civil society. And also, further to that, there are also other talks that that are happening between President Mugabe and envoys that have been sent in from South Africa by President Jacob Zuma.

AMT: So can I just ask you, you're talking about some kind of a coalition. Is this the beginning of the end of Mugabe's rule?

TM: Not necessarily because at the moment, we don't actually know what President Mugabe's position is. From the reports that we've gotten it's that so far, from what the army itself says, they still do recognize President Mugabe as the head of state. However, they are targeting the people around him. People that they accuse of abuse of power, they accuse them of corruption and they will accuse them of betraying the ideals of the liberation struggle.

AMT: This at the beginning looked like a struggle within Mugabe's own ZANU-PF Party. But what you're telling me now is that there are many more players?

TM: Yes. It's still very much is a struggle within ZANU-PF because the generals that are confining President Mugabe to his home were also part of the liberation struggle. In 1975, they formed the declaration during the years of the liberation struggle that they would resolve to stand together and Mugabe would lead them. And so for them, because Zimbabwe itself was founded on the principles of the liberation struggle and because ZANU-PF has ruled Zimbabwe since independence in 1980, they feel that this is an internal affair. However, it has very many ripples across the region and also internationally. And this is why we see both regional and international players commenting and also trying to take a role in trying to resolve this standoff between President Mugabe and the military.

AMT: And, of course, there is the whole side of Grace Mugabe, his wife, having her own allies within ZANU-PF. Where does that stand? And where is she right now? Do you know?

TM: At the moment, her whereabouts are unknown. There's been a lot of speculation that she could be out of Zimbabwe. And several countries have been suggested as to where she is. However, from the reports that I have and from the sources that I have, I've been told that her safe exit has been guaranteed. However, she is still confined to the house with her husband.

AMT: It appears that with this many people negotiating that Zimbabwe politically may not look the same tomorrow as it did yesterday, am I right?

TM: Yes, it definitely won’t. It will not be the same.

AMT: Have you known any other president in Zimbabwe other than Mugabe?

TM: No. Unfortunately, I'm a child who was born after the liberation era. So no, I have no other President or Prime Minister other than Robert, Gabriel, Mugabe.

AMT: And, of course, he has been the only one since independence and liberation. How are people reacting to this? Do they fear what may follow? Are they looking for a new way forward? What's it like on the streets right now?

TM: On the streets right now, in my casual conversations with people they seem to be very happy that somebody has finally stood up. Somebody with force and someone with strength has finally stood up to President Robert Mugabe and actually put him in a corner. It seems to me that people are very happy. But at the same time, it's not something they are willing to talk about. When I approach people as a journalist, it's not something that they want to talk about in a conversation and say publicly on record that they are happy that you know President Mugabe has finally buckled to someone else's will. However, what people are saying is that they hope that the situation can be contained and it can be resolved in a peaceful manner that sees President Mugabe exiting from power. And somebody else who is hopefully a better leader taking over in the interim before we head to elections next year.

AMT: OK. Well, Tendai Marima, thank you for bringing us up to date.

TM: Thank you so much for having me.

AMT: Tendai Marima is a freelance reporter in Harare, Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe's ambassador to Canada has been listening and Florence Chideya is on the line from Ottawa. Hello Ms. Ambassador.

FLORENCE CHIDEYA: Hello, Anna.

AMT: What is your view then? Has there been a coup in Zimbabwe?

FC: You know, first of all, thank you for letting me listen in on these conversations and have a say. There has not been a coup. His Excellency the President is still remaining President and Commander of the Defense Forces, today as we speak. What has happened from my understanding is that we have this internal processes taking place in the country engineered by the Defense Forces. This happened a couple of days ago. The military explained internationally that this is not a coup. But they called it a “bloodless, peaceful transition”, and “a surgical operation to remove the criminal element”. So the decision was taken to intervene because they felt that the country was being undermined by this element. As far as we know, there's been little or no bloodshed reported. And interestingly as well that the institutions have remained open. And although, I think the first day there was a lot of activity it was not shut down. But yesterday and today, the civil servants have been encouraged to go to work — the judiciary and the parliament. So all events are at minimal operation and improving.

AMT: OK. Well, Ms. Ambassador, can I ask you then who are you taking orders from? Who is in charge?

FC: At the moment? In two days’ time?

AMT: No, right now. Who is in charge? Who do you talk to?

FC: Well we have the bureaucracy is there. It's intact. No one has gone home. I report to my Minister of Foreign Affairs, as well as the Chief Secretary. The President is still the president, although he's confined to the moment. He is still the president.

AMT: Do you believe this is the end of a Robert Mugabe's rule, and that there will be someone new heading ZANU-P.F. and, therefore, the country?

FC: Well, this is a fluid question I think. And we have to wait and see what the end result is going to look like.

AMT: And as you heard my last guest talk about the negotiations that are going on. What do you make of that?

FC: Well, I think that that is necessary when something like this happens. And they know this is unchartered territory, but we're very much impressed by the peace that is surrounding the country, even if there is an unusual event.

AMT: I'm going to play a clip for you if I may. This is Den Moyo. He is with Zimbabwe's opposition the MDC — the Movement for Democratic Change — he has lived in exile in the United States for 20 years. Listen to what Den Moyo had to say yesterday about this.

SOUNDCLIP

DEN MOYO: The Mugabe rule has just been [incomprehensible] for the people of Zimbabwe And this comes as a wlcome that Mugabe in no longer going to be the president. Even though it is a welcome move, it doesn't all go well for democracy because the military is never a good case for promoting democracy. On top of that, it is the same cast of characters that has stood by Mugabe for decades it really doesn't change anything for the people of Zimbabwe. It might make things worse.

AMT: Ambassador Chideya, what do you think? Could things become worse with the changes that we understand are happening behind the scenes?

FC: Let us first take a look. The whole reason for this intervention the way the military has expressed is that they are looking for the elements that have maybe abused the democracy that is there. So I don't know how you would say that this is a bad thing for the population? I'm not sure that I could make that conclusion. But at the same time, it’s a touch-and-go situation. I think it is premature. What is important is that the people are calm. They’ve remained calm. There is no bloodshed and people are talking. Isn’t it part of the democracy?

AMT: Right. Well, and as you point, out the judiciary is operating. So why if your judiciary is operating do you need the army to arrest people for criminal offenses? If your democracy is working, why does the army have to make arrests?

FC: Well, it’s a work in progress, isn't it? If you see that something is not working and that you do have to make corrections however you do it. And in this case, yeah, we’ve been told that this has happened.

AMT: Do you think President Mugabe will ever return to power?

FC: He is in power. He is the president today.

AMT: And are you at all worried for your job as you watch this unfold?

FC: Oh no, no, not at all. Not at all.

AMT: OK. Well, Ambassador Chideya, thank you for speaking with me today.

FC: Thank you for inviting me to talk with you. Thank you, Anna.

AMT: Goodbye.

FC: Have a good day.

AMT: That is Florence Chideya. She is Zimbabwe's Ambassador to Canada. She joined us from Ottawa. While some are calling it a coup, many questions remain about the future of a country many see as a failed state. Peter Godwin was born and raised in Zimbabwe. He's the author of “The Fear: Robert Mugabe and the Martyrdom of Zimbabwe”. In 2008, after nearly three decades of increasingly authoritarian rule, Robert Mugabe lost an election to the Movement for Democratic Change — the MDC. Instead of conceding, Mr. Mugabe launched a brutal crackdown, torturing, killing and beating MDC supporters. Peter Godwin was one of the few outside observers covering this time of terror. He joins us now from New York City. Hello.

PETER GODWIN: Hi.

AMT: What are you thinking as you listen to the Ambassador?

PG: Well, she's in an unenviable position. I mean I you know I understand her position. She needs to keep the channels open. She doesn't know what's going on. I would probably say exactly the same thing if I were in her position. But semantic quibbles aside, you know it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it's a coup. Now I mean there were different kinds of coups. This is not your average West African coup, where the general who is perpetrating it wants himself to be the president. That's clearly not the case. General Chiwenga, in this case the commander of the Zimbabwe army, has made it clear that he doesn't want to be president. He's doing it in a sense to protect the old guard of the party from Mr. Mugabe’s wife, Grace, who has designs to replace him as president. So you know in that sense it's not a kind of classic West African coup. It's a kind of protective coup as it were. But you know the fact is if you have a man in military uniform taking over the state broadcasting station and reading out a statement at 4:00 a.m. That's a coup.

AMT: And telling him to be calm and don't worry about anything, that’s a coup.

PG: Absolutely. I mean you know we can dance around this. But the fact is I mean it's moved on from that and there's now a very interesting and intricate negotiation as to what happens next.

AMT: Remind us briefly about life in Zimbabwe has been like under Robert Mugabe?

PG: Well, it's been a disaster. I mean this is a country that that not only had the most potential in Africa, but it had pretty much the highest income, the highest GDP outside of perhaps South Africa when Mugabe took over in 1980. And it flourished fairly well through the 80s and into the 90s, and then for various economic reasons and as he created a one-party state a kind of spiral down into a failed state ultimately. And it's now right at the bottom of the African poverty table. Millions of Zimbabweans have fled out of the country. There's an enormous Zimbabwean diaspora in places like Canada and in USA and in England and Australia and South Africa. And, in fact, the only real reason Zimbabwe survives is on the remittances of these people. So many of the best and the brightest have fled you know in some cases up to 20 years ago. There's been systematic political repression to the point where Zimbabweans are sort of cowed. I mean you only have to torture people once or twice and they get the message. You don't have to keep doing it. It's you know sort of Pavlovian after a while. So I think that that's why there's an understandable sense of possibility and even excitement on the streets of Harare and the rest of the country. Just because you've had this one person in power the entire time — this sort of dead hand that just stops all development and all progress and also stifles democracy. But it's also a time of enormous danger because this is not a coup that is then going to hand over to the opposition, or go straight to some kind of democratic outcome. The people that the army are acting on behalf of, in particular Emmerson Mnangagwa, who was until recently one of Mugabe's vice presidents. For many, many years was the minister in charge of the repressive state bureaucracy. He was in charge of the intelligence organization. He was in charge of the CIO, which is the equivalent of the internal intelligence. Kind of like a combination of the CIA and the FBI during the time in the early 80s, when Mugabi sent his North Korean-trained 5th Brigade down into the south of the country, where they killed upwards of 20,000 civilians in order to quell dissent. Mnangagwa was over that. He's not a man with clean hands at all. He's cut from exactly the same cloth as Mugabi. This is a kind of internal fratricidal conflict that is a kind of family feud on steroids.

AMT: So this isn't really a struggle for a more democracy. This is a struggle within the ZANU-PF to keep control of this country.

PG: Yes. I mean it's basically it's kind of it's a contest between two types of coup: A bedroom coup, which is the one where Grace wants to take over, Mugabe's wife. And a palace coup, where the old guards say no, we should be the ones who take over. And, of course, you know it was ever thus with an autocracy. The autocrat can't contemplate his own mortality. So he doesn't make arrangements in time for how to be replaced. So in the end, they went for the sort of the kind of the monarchy model as it were. The dynastic model. But they overreached and they'd had didn't have the military with them. And so it's backfired. This whole thing has been triggered by Grace's power grab within ZANU-PF. But it's got absolutely nothing to do with the real opposition, who are just on the sidelines and sort of bewildered as anyone else in waiting to see what happen.

AMT: OK. So Peter, we're really almost at a time. So just really briefly, is the end of Mugabe as president?

PG: I think it’s the end of Mugabe. I mean listen, I don't think he can come back from this. I mean he may be allowed to serve out to some sort of token as some sort of token head of state. But you know he's already 93, he's incredibly doddery anyway physically and mentally I think. So yeah, I think one way or another this should be the end of Mugabe.

AMT: Peter Godwin, thanks for your insights.

PG: You're welcome.

AMT: Peter Godwin, author of “The Fear: Robert Mugabe and the Martyrdom of Zimbabwe”. We reached him in New York City. Fascinating what's going on there now. Stay with us. The news is next and then breaking free. The daughter of a cult leader, Warren Jeffs, talks about the difficult truth about living in his church and his family. She managed to escape. This is The Current.

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Part 2: Daughter of polygamist Warren Jeffs speaks out on her father’s abuse

Guest: Rachel Jeffs

AMT: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. And you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come with climate change and Arctic warming, snow and ice are disappearing. And there's an unexpected benefit for archaeologists: artifacts, even human remains are being revealed. We'll hear about these so-called secrets from the ice in half an hour. But first, breaking a spell and fleeing from father.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Are you Warren Jeffs?

WARREN JEFFS: Yes.

SPEAKER: All right. Mr. Jeffs, you’re being held as fugitive. And there are two fugitive for you; one from Utah, one from Arizona. I’m going to explain to you very quickly what your rights are in regards to being a fugitive from justice. Then, you tell me what you want to do.

AMT: Well, he may just have been a man on the docket in that Utah courtroom in 2006. But in the lives of his followers, Warren Jeffs looms larger than life. He is the self-styled prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS, a splinter-sect that practices polygamy. The group is condemned by the mainstream Mormon Church. It is the same sect with a community in Bountiful, B.C. The FLDS is an extraordinarily secretive group, outsiders are unwelcome and to leave that community is considered a grave sin. Since 2011, their prophet, Warren Jeffs, has been in prison — sentenced to life for the sexual assault of two of his under-age wives. Rachel Jeffs is his daughter. She ran away from the church in 2014, and she's written a book, “Breaking Free” about her experience. Warning: some of what we're going to be discussing may be disturbing. Rachel Jeffs is with me in Toronto. Hello.

RACHEL JEFFS: Hi.

AMT: What was it like to grow up in a polygamist family?

RJ: You know as a young child, it was a lot less restrictive than it is now. I thought it was fun having lots of brothers and sisters because they were all my friends. It was fun to me. We did a lot of fun things like camping, hiking, swimming. Just a lot of what normal kids do. Except you know we didn’t watch TV. We had to dress a certain way. We had lots of moms. And you know sometimes they weren't nice, according to if they're mad at my mom or not. And then other times they were, you know? So it's just a big family and you just learn how to socialize I think quite well with a lot of people.

AMT: And you didn't know any other way.

RJ: No. And we are taught that the world was different than us. We knew that we were different than the rest the world. But Warren Jeffs, my father, taught us that we should be proud of ourselves to live that way, you know?

AMT: How many wives did your father have?

RJ: He ended up having 78.

AMT: And how many children?

RJ: 53.

AMT: And where were you in that mix?

RJ: I was the third child. So I grew up with him.

AMT: OK. What were some of the most important rules you had to follow growing up?

RJ: Obeying our parents was very important. We were told to be kind to each other, you know? Be honest don't lie, you know? Follow the 10 commandments, especially obey. That was probably the most important one.

AMT: Right. And that was the one that, of course, becomes so critical because of how you end up being treated. You write about suffering abuse at the hands of your father. Can you tell me how did your father abuse you?

RJ: He, at first, you know it just surprised me, you know? He didn't really say anything. It was really quiet. He just suddenly exposed himself to me and I was just shocked. I didn’t know what he was thinking. I was just like what was he trying to do, you know? I was confused. It was against the way he had taught me. Morals were an important part of our religion. We were taught that men and women should keep their bodies covered and not touch each other. So it was just like going totally against what he had taught me.

AMT: How old were you?

RJ: I was eight. And I guess I was just so baffled. I didn't know he was trying to do. And I was like do you not know what you're doing, you know? He was just so quiet. And then slowly it got worse to where he would start uncovering me and touching me. And he was really quiet and different about it. But he made me feel like I had to obey him when he told me to touch him. Or when he touched me, you know?

AMT: You would be summoned essentially to his office, am I right?

RJ: Yeah, yeah, he'd take me to his office. That was where most abuse happened. Behind a locked door in his office, where he really had all the privacy he wanted to do whatever he wanted with me.

AMT: How did you process or explain this? What was happening to you at the time? How did you think about it?

RJ: At first, I remember thinking is he doing this because now I'm eight? You know that was considered the age of accountability. Does he think that I'll be on my head if he does this, you know? And then I remember thinking am I bad? Is he doing this because I'm a bad girl somehow, you know? I would wonder why was he only doing this to me. In my mind, I thought it was only happening to me. And so I started blaming myself, wondering if I was just a bad person? Snd how he tried so hard to get me to stay quiet, don't tell anybody. And yet, at other times he would tell me that he was doing wrong. He told me he had done wrong. And yet, keep it quiet, you know?

AMT: How did he prevent you from talking about what he did?

RJ: Just that pressure of don't you tell anyone. I don't know like I had to obey him. And what would he do if I did tell someone, you know? I was afraid of that.

AMT: This went on for how many years?

RJ: Until I was 16.

AMT: He has been convicted of sexually assaulting two girls. But what you're telling me has not been proven in court. Have you considered pursuing legal charges against him?

RJ: I have thought about it. But the most reason why I haven’t is because he is in prison for life. If there was a chance he got out, I would.

AMT: You would.

RJ: Yeah.

AMT: When you were 18, your father chose a husband for you. What do you remember about the wedding day?

RJ: I was very scared because I didn't know him at all, you know? I’d never talked to him. So you know he chooses, and we just say yes because I mean you know we get told we have a choice but we really don't, because if we say no then we're kicked out of the church or whatever. And we just have nothing. But I was just really scared. I didn't know how to talk to him, even for several weeks after. I was just really nervous because I had never talked to another man besides my father before.

AMT: It was like a week between when you kind of picked the material for your dress to the actual ceremony.

RJ: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah and we didn't know who we were marrying untill the day before we got married.

AMT: And still, at this point, you had told no one about the abuse that had happened?

RJ: No, but I had faced father on it. Like I had written him a letter and said I hate you and you do these things to me. I let him know that it just made me angry at him. And, at that point, he actually told me he was sorry. And that he had done wrong. And then he used it as an excuse that oh, I was teaching you, you know? And I just like what did I need to learn? I mean it just didn't make sense to me. I knew he had done wrong. And he knew he had.

AMT: Despite all the sheltering, you understood that was wrong. At one point you did go to your mother.

RJ: Yeah. When I was 10, and I just thought this is more than I can handle. And I went and I was crying and she really pulled it out of me. Rachel, what's wrong? You know I said during the night, because he had got me up during the night and had molested me, and she was angry, you know? She's like that is not OK. And she got up and I heard her go down to father's room. But after that, I don't know what he said to silence her. And you know she was told she had to obey him. And I don't know. She never she never did anything about it. She just kept trusting him to be alone with me. And she didn't stop it. I don't know what he said to her? But she never said anything about it again.

AMT: And you can't ask her any more. Your mom passed away, right?

RJ: Right, yeah. She's dead now. And I never dared talked talk to her even one more time after that about it.

AMT: It is into that kind of world as you get married you kind of know then the role of the polygamist wife. And this was part of your concern.

RJ: Yeah, you just have to obey, you know? Your husband's considered your king, your god, whatever.

AMT: And so you married Rich. There were two other wives in that household.

RJ: Yup, already married to him.

AMT: What was the dynamic like for you?

RJ: There was a lot of jealousies. And I was shocked at all the bad feelings and how angry they were me when I didn't even choose the situation. I just felt like you know what? I didn't even choose to be here, you know? I felt so hurt because I didn't want to hurt anybody and I didn't want to make anybody mad. And it was just really painful. And then, after my husband married two more wives, I realized how much harder it was being there and having more come in. And yet, I made it a point to be kind to him because I didn't want to be angry like my sister wives before me were.

AMT: How did the church members react when your father was sent to prison?

RJ: Everybody just felt like it was religious persecution and that he was innocent and hadn't done anything wrong.

AMT: But, by that time, he was taking wives who were younger than you.

RJ: Yeah. And that's what made me angry because I knew he was really doing to them because of what he had done to me. And yet, I couldn't say anything to anybody. They wouldn’t believe me.

AMT: Or maybe they were afraid to agree with you, huh?

RJ: Exactly because we'd all lose our place if we even talked about it.

AMT: And it was like that even with your sister. How did you you and your sister discover you were both being treated this way?

RJ: So I asked one of my sisters to put together my scrapbooks. And they had father's letters of him asking my forgiveness. And so when my sister read those letters, she was like I know exactly what he's talking about. And so she called me one day and told me Rachel, you know what father did to you? And I was just like I never have told her, you know? I was shocked that she was talking to me about it. And she's like well, he did the same thing to me. And I felt a powerful relief. And yet, at the same time, sorrow for her. But yeah, relief that somebody understood me. And that I could actually speak to somebody. I had been quiet so long. And to actually get all out and tell you all our experiences and how similar they were, it just felt so good. And we both just cried and we're both like we're not going to stay in this church forever. We're going to leave some time.

AMT: And that's when you decided. And your dad was already in jail at this time.

RJ: Yeah, he's in prison. And he had already been sending really unkind revelations to us. Accusing us of wrongdoing, of things we hadn't done and sending us to live alone for long periods of time away from our kids. And so it felt like he was punishing us for what he had done to us and trying to break us down.

AMT: And so you were forced to move around and leave your children behind. Tell me a little bit more about that? Because you go long periods of time, huh? How many kids did you have by this time?

RJ: I had five kids. I was still nursing my baby. And father sent a message for me to leave my kids and go repent. And I was just so angry at father because I was nursing my baby. And I had to leave him. And I was probably more angry than I've ever been. And I even wrote a letter to him of how angry I was because how can you do that to my baby?

AMT: He knew what he was doing.

RJ: And because I wrote that letter then he made me stay away longer. So I was gone for about five weeks. When I came back, my baby didn't remember me.

AMT: That must have been so hard.

RJ: I cried so much. Yeah, it was so hard. And it took him about a week to realize I was his mom.

AMT: You talk about the brainwashing. That kind of underlines it right there. That you really had no choice, you had to go and the rest of the community would have expected you to go.

RJ: And if I wouldn't have gone, they would treat me like an apostate. Like you shouldn't be here, they would have treated me terrible. Then you know father allowed me to go back. And then he took me away again up to seven months at a time. I didn't see or talk to my kids or hear from them. And at one point I was so angry that I just disobeyed him and went and found them. And then you know I kind of just broke into the property that they were and tried to get to my kids. You know my sister wives were like don't you dare come in here. Locked all the doors, wouldn't let me see them. I think that instant scared father so much that I was going to do what I was going to do no matter what he told me. That it felt like that was a turning point where he's like oh no, I better be nice to Rachel, or else she's going to leave. And he didn't want anybody to know what he had done to me. So it felt like he suddenly tried to be nicer to me. like oh, here's your kids. You can have them, but you still have to be alone. You can't be around anybody because we don't want you to tell what you've been through. But you can have your kids.

AMT: How did you eventually escape?

RJ: After I had my kids for a little bit just alone. We didn't have a vehicle or anything. And then my sister called me and told me what father had done. Then she was ready to leave right away. And so I helped her get a number to our grandparents that were outside of the church.

AMT: This is on your mother's side?

RJ: Yeah, our maternal grandparents. And they were willing to help, you know? And so they sent one of our uncles. And then after she left, I wanted to stay in case I would get to talk to my husband, because I really wanted him to leave with me. I wanted us to be a family. But after I realized that I was never going to see Rich again then I just decided to leave. So I called my sister and asked her to come get my kids late one night.

AMT: You told them they were going for a sleepover.

RJ: Yeah, I didn't want them to know because I didn’t want them to cry really hard because I knew it would be hard on them. So they went with my sister. And then I packed up our stuff throughout the day and after, late in the night when nobody was around, I snuck out and left.

AMT: How did you feel being exposed to the outside world for the first time once you got out?

RJ: It was a huge change, but I was just so happy to be free. I mean that feeling I'm not always looking over my shoulder was just so wonderful. It was like a huge weight had been taken off my back. Even though, at times, I was like wow, is it OK if I'm happy? I felt so guilty to be happy because I was so used to living in such a sad situation that I just could hardly even understand if it was OK, you know?

AMT: What about your children? How did they adjust to the difference?

RJ: At first, they were really emotional. They were wondering if I was doing a bad thing. They didn't understand everything. They were sad that they might not see their father again, or their brothers and sisters?

AMT: What age were they at this point?

RJ: From 12 to four.

AMT: So especially the 12-year-old would have known that this is very different. And this is against the teachings already. You know that at 12, right?

RJ: Yeah, very much.

AMT: Was there anything that they sort of you saw them kind of discovering that kind of made you like really stop and think wow, this would never have happened if I hadn't done this.

RJ: You know my grandparents had this toy room and they had dolls and everything. And my children hadn’t ever played with toys. And so for weeks, even the big girls were in the toy room playing dolls. Like because they have never played with them. And it was fun to watch them just experience new things.

AMT: Why couldn’t they play with toys?

RJ: Warren Jeffs, my father, he said that toys were idols of the devil. And God didn't want our kids to have toys. He just wanted them to work. So we had to get rid of all the toys we had, which happened after I was married, so I had grown up and had toys, but my kids didn't.

AMT: And so you knew you needed to tell this story.

RJ: Yeah, I did because after I left, so many people came to me like why did you leave? You know you're Warren Jeffs daughter. Why would you leave? They figured there must be a reason. And so I started telling my story. And then more and more people wanted to come here it. And it was just such a long story that I just felt like you know what? I'll just write it. And then everybody can read it.

AMT: It's a very complex story. We're just touching on the surface of a lot of what you've been through. You're married again.

RJ: Yeah, yeah.

AMT: Congratulations. And you're married to a Canadian man, also former FLDS, from Bountiful.

RJ: Yeah, he never believed in polygamy. He never wanted to live that way. And he was really rebellious to a lot of the teachings. I mean he just felt like it wasn't right when they got taught like don't listen to this music. I mean you know they had more freedom in Canada. They always have. But, at the same time, it was restrictive compared to the rest of the world. But as they started becoming more and more restrictive, Brandon was like this is crazy. You know he tried to get his wife to leave, you know? He's like this is ridiculous. She wouldn't leave. She went and told authorities that he wasn't going to obey. And so they kicked him out. They took his family, moved his family out of his home and told them he wasn’t going to be in the church anymore, which made him angry because he wanted his family. But, at the same time, he was glad to be out of the church.

AMT: Does he have joint-custody of his children?

RJ: Yes, he does.

AMT: So he had to fight for that.

RJ: Yeah, he had to fight for his kids. And he has full custody of his oldest son. He just shares the other three.

AMT: This is the other side of it, right? This is the fear that you are totally shunned like can you have contact with any of your siblings — anybody from the church who's still in it?

RJ: No. After I left, father sent a message to the whole church to not talk to me personally. I think he felt like I had too much against him. And no, we're very shunned. Anyone who leaves the church the people in the church are told to never talk to them again.

AMT: Do you think he knows how you're living now?

RJ: Hopefully he's seeing it on TV. But he probably knows. But he definitely doesn't want his family or the people to know. He wants them to think that we're miserable and sad and not to come back and everything.

AMT: Do you think he sincerely believes he's a prophet of God?

RJ: I think at times he really tries to convince himself that he is. But I know other times he's had moments of honesty where he's confessed that he has done wrong and that he's not a prophet, you know? So he has had moments of honesty, but I think he really just want everyone to believe that he's a perfect man like they do.

AMT: And after leaving organization like that I think you do call it a cult, don't you?

RJ: Oh yes, I do.

AMT: Are you religious? Do you believe in any part of religion now?

RJ: I feel like God has helped me so much in being strong against my dad. And so I definitely believe in God. I pray. I'm a Christian. But I haven't really felt being religious after all that.

AMT: You don't need the organizations.

RJ: No, I just feel ike so like so often men take advantage of people when they're the leader. And any man can suddenly lead people astray. I mean I guess that's why I feel like why not just go to God myself, instead of through a man?

AMT: Do you think the friends and family who you left behind will ever leave the church?

RJ: I think eventually some of them will. I don't think all of them will. But I mean what happens when a father dies? I mean what then, you know? They got to go somewhere. They got to do something. I don't know. I just pray every day that they will. I'm always here for them, and I so much try to reach out to them. And I want them to leave.

AMT: What do we need to understand from the way you grew up? And you know like most people want to be able to raise their kids the way they want. Your father, obviously, crossed a lot of lines. But what is society's role in looking out for families, even in communities that put up those barriers.

RJ: I always feel like if the children could at least have an education — like a full education — if they could at least know enough about the world and have enough education that they can make that choice. I think education is the biggest part of it letting children choose what they want to do because it gives them opportunity to be whatever they want to be. Where because we were so kept away even from education, we just never could even see the difference or even had the choice.

AMT: What do you tell your kids now about their grandfather? What do you tell them about your life?

RJ: They don't claim him as a grandfather. I don't really claim as a father. I mean he is, but I'm just saying I really don't. I referred to him as father because that's what he is. But they hate him. My little girl the other day — my little 8-year-old girl — came in and she saw a picture because I had a book that had his picture on it. And she's like ew, why are you liking it? I hate that man. And I was Lavender, why do you hate him? I just wanted to see why she hated him? And she was like because he took us away from you. So they know. I mean my older children know what he has done. So I mean they very much are glad to be out. And that's not a problem to them. I mean you know actually they get embarrassed. They don't want everybody to know that that's where they're from. And I'm like you know what? Embrace where you came from. Be grateful for that. And then it just all goes away and you can look to the future and be proud of who you are no matter what.

AMT: I was just going to ask you what kinds of conversations you have about their future?

RJ: Yeah. And that is another thing that's really fun to watch them try and decide what they're going to become. You know they feel like there's so many possibilities they can't even decide. But it's fun that they can because I never could.

AMT: And that's what you've given them.

RJ: Yeah, and I think my greatest desire is to give them the life that I couldn’t have. And help other people from the church to have that too.

AMT: Thanks for sharing your story thanks for coming in.

RJ: Yeah, thank you.

AMT: Rachel Jeffs, author of “Breaking Free: How I Escaped Polygamy, the FLDS Cult, and my Father, Warren Jeffs”. She was with me at our Toronto studio. If you want to see pictures of Rachel and her family, both before and after her escape, you can go to our website: www.cbc.ca/thecurrent.

AMT: In our next half hour, as the snow and ice melt in the Arctic, artifacts see the light of day for the first time in thousands of years. Secrets from the ice… 90 seconds from now. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Part 3: How Yukon’s melting ice reveals human artifacts and Indigenous history

Guests: Andrew Gregg, Greg Hare, Pearl Callaghan

AMT: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current. Next stop a government lab in Yukon that has a collection of ancient hunting tools.

SOUNDCLIP

GREG HARE: This one here is my particular favorite. And I don't know if you can see this but this small segment of the three inches long. It's got a couple of twists of sinew on it and parts of a feather that are still wedged underneath that sinew. This is actually the piece that started the whole ice patch phenomenon. When we got the radiocarbon date back before the 4,300, it's just all the lights went on and we saw that this was one of the oldest preserved organic artifacts found ever in Canada.

AMT: That is Yukon archaeologist Greg Hare, describing precious finds from the ice patches of Yukon. The ice caps on top of Yukon's majestic mountains have been melting for more than two decades now. On the one hand, that's a very troubling sign of climate change. But as that ice melts, it is offering archaeologists a treasure trove of ancient artifacts, preserved in its cold grip for thousands of years. A new documentary takes a close look at the pieces of human history thawing out of the ice in Canada's north. “Secrets from the Ice” airs on CBC's “The Nature of Things” this coming Sunday. Journalist and documentary maker Andrew Gregg is with me in Toronto. Hello.

ANDREW GREGG: Hi, Anna Maria.

AMT: We just heard about something sinewy with a feather. What are some of the other items you've seen pulled out of the melting ice when you were filming this documentary?

AG: Well, I think the most amazing thing overall is that what they're pulling out are organics. So it's not just the stone hunting point. It's the wooden shafts they're attached to with the sinew still wrapped around. And feathers are appearing on some of them as well. So when I was up with Greg last summer, we saw him retrieve an atlatl, which is like a throwing spear for hunting. And some shafts of arrows. And some stone hunting points. And another particularly wonderful find: a copper-pointed hunting point that's attached to an antler fore-shaft that was just an unbelievable bit of craftsmanship. I think Greg will agree that they've never found anything like that before and it's a real prize.

AMT: Let me take you through some of that first. OK, the atlatl. It's like a big, long spear, but it's more sophisticated.

AG: Yes. It predates arrows and bows. They're used around the world. It was a technology that emerged in different cultures everywhere. But in the Yukon, it was the prime hunting tool. What it is is a spear or a dart. Some of them are up to about a metre-and-a-half long with a hunting point on the end. But it's flung with like a handheld catapult. It looks like a handle. And you put the spear tip in there and you fling it. So it'll go a lot faster and it's a lot more accurate than if you just threw a spear by hand.

AMT: There is Caribou dung coming out of the ice as well.

AG: That was the first clue that something was going on up there. There was a Yukon caribou biologist that was just happened to be up on a hunting trip back with these ice patches are. And he saw caribou dung all over the place melting out of the ice. But there hadn't been caribou in that particular area for more than 100 years.

AMT: Does it stink?

AG: It doesn't stink too bad, but it's fresh. And this is how Greg and his group can figure out where they're going to go and search for artifacts. What was happening back 1,000; 2000; 4,000; 9,000 years ago were the hunters were going up to these ice patches in the summer to find caribou. They went up because the caribou were up there getting away from bugs. That forced the hunters to expend a lot of energy to climb up 5,000-6,000 feet with their hunting tools…

AMT: Their atlatls.

AG: Their atlatls and take down these animals. And then take the carcasses back down to the valley bottoms.

AMT: And they can date these things because this is organic material that should have actually disintegrated long ago?

AG: Well, back to the caribou dung. When those biologists first went what do we have here? They brought samples back to town and realized it was about 1,400 years old.

AMT: What are we learning from these finds then about life in Yukon thousands of years ago?

AG: Well, first of all, how they hunted. That they were going up to mountaintops to hunt. Nobody knew that before. Also, we're learning about the sophistication of the technology. This stuff — these atlatls — there's actually a World Atlatl Society, where they build their own atlatls and compete. There is an engineer that we met who took the dimensions of one of the atlatl that Greg found and he made his own. And he goes into competitions with this and generally comes in in the top five in the world — beating people that have atlatls that are made out of fiberglass and all this stuff. And so we're just learning that the technology is incredible. So if you're within 20 or 30 meters and you're trying to take down a big animal, it's incredibly accurate and incredibly deadly.

AMT: It underlines again the sophistication of Indigenous peoples on this land that was really not given any credit for so very long.

AG: And you know in another sense, a lot of that not getting credit is because no monumental architecture was left behind. You know you go to Egypt and you see the pyramids. You go down to Central America and Mexico you see the same thing. You go to Peru and you see the walls the Inca built. That wasn't left hind here because so much of the culture was based on organics, or skin, or stuff that would decompose. So to find wood with the sinew and feathers and stuff attached. There's even bits of red ochre on there where you can see they decorated these things. To find that is an entirely new window.

AMT: These discoveries do they represent a silver lining in climate change in some ways?

AG: It's hard to say whether it's a silver lining. I think in terms of archaeology it is. I mean what this has done is helped establish a brand-new branch of archaeology. Climate change has created a new area of study. And it's not happening just in the Yukon. They're finding stuff in the Northwest Territories. They’re finding stuff in Alaska. They found one atlatl shaft in Montana I believe. And over in Norway, which we include in the story, they're finding Viking era stuff where they were hunting reindeer up at the same altitude. It is a silver lining in terms of human history. But you know when you're standing there watching these amazing things melt it kind of is depressing too.

AMT: Yeah. Well Andrew Gregg, let's bring in one of the archaeologists doing this work, Greg Hare. We heard him in the introduction. He is with the Department of Tourism and Culture in Yukon. He joins us from Whitehorse. Hello.

GREG HARE: Good morning.

AMT: How long have you been doing this work, Greg?

GH: Well, I've been an archaeologist on the Yukon archaeology program for almost 30 years. But the ice patch project really began in 1997. So I've been involved right from the very beginning.

AMT: It's extraordinary, isn't it? Because when you became an archaeologist, you didn't know this was even available to you did you?

GH: No, this is an entirely new field of archaeological research. And it's completely different from being down in a valley bottom where you are sifting through the dirt. You're up on top of the world. You've got majestic vistas. You can see probably 50 miles in every direction. And it's really a magical quality to these sites.

AMT: So how did you react when you found an artifact and realized after the carbon dating that it was thousands of years old?

GH: Well, that very first artifact was stated at 4,300 years old. We hadn't anticipated that the artifact could be more than 100 or 200 years old based on where it was found. And it is almost like a double side to the discovery process. One, you find the object. And then later you wait for the radiocarbon date to come back. And then for the first number of years we were always so surprised to find out just how ancient these objects were.

AMT: And what are the unique challenges of doing archaeological research with organic artifacts?

GH: One is the requirement to be up there almost when they're melting out. The whole ice patch phenomenon is based on a very narrow window of opportunity between when last year's snow melts before this year's snow falls. So we've usually only got about three weeks at the end of July, early August. We're hoping to get the time of maximum melt so that we are there when the object is melting out of the ice, before it gets recovered by snow. So it's a very short field season and you never know is this going to be a good melt year? Is the snow going to melt in time? We're doing all of this by helicopter and it's often difficult to get in. And objects that are left on the ground for any period of time disintegrate very quickly.

AMT: So the clock is running on them in a different way immediately. How rapidly as the ice melting?

GH: You know if you had asked me that same question 15 years ago, I would have said most of the ice would be gone by now. But we've discovered through the years that it's not melting in a linear fashion. One of the consequences I think of climate change is we're starting to get wetter winters. We're getting more precipitation some years. And summers are tending to be cooler. So in some years, we'll see the ice actually increase. But I'd say overall, there's been a mass wasting of the ice. So it's hard to say. We've got several ice patches that are as much as 9,000 years old, so they are very resistant to melting. It's the smaller ice patches — the ones that are say 5,000 years or less. They're much more vulnerable to melting. And it's possible that within a few years, a lot of those will be gone.

AMT: How involved is the Indigenous community in Yukon in the work you're doing?

GH: All very involved. We have six First Nation partners that we've been working with almost since the very beginning in the project. It's within their traditional territories all the ice patches are found. So in any given year we'll have 15 to 20 field participants from the various First Nations. The ice patch project has been firmly embraced by our first nation partners because it really gives them an insight into their heritage that was perhaps only existed in the oral tradition. The archaeological material wasn't there before. It was basically stone tools, which are such a shallow representation of the vibrant technology that people were using. And now, for the first time, we're seeing things that people really identify with.

AMT: So you'll be back in the summer?

GH: We do it every single year. We've now built up a collection of more than 250 objects.

AMT: And where are they now?

GH: They're in our archaeology lab in Whitehorse. When they come off the ice, they're often quite wet so we keep them in freezers for the first number of months and we monitor the drying process. It’s sort of a freeze-drying process. And then we move them into special cabinets that have gaskets to slow down moisture movement from one side to the other. So they're stable and they're in our collections until some long-term display situation is developed.

AMT: OK. Well, Greg Hare. Thank you. Thank you for your discoveries. It's really fascinating.

GH: You're very welcome.

AMT: That's Greg Hare. He's an archaeologist with the Department of Tourism and Culture in Yukon. And he joined us from Whitehorse. Andrew Greg is with me in our studio. So these are being found on traditional Indigenous lands. Who actually owns them?

AG: Well, that's an interesting question. I mean one person's scientific artifact is another person's family heirloom as I like to say. So the ownership the government has of them and preserves them and has that facility. But I think the ownership is a question about where the artifacts are going to go later. If they were found in, for example, the territory of the First Nation, there is a chance maybe down the road that they'll go and move to their cultural centre, which they're building and they can be on display there. I think the most important thing, particularly with the generation of elders now, a lot of them went through the residential school period and a lot of them were told that their history was worthless. And they came out of it with a sort of a sense of shame, and now that these artifacts — these handmade artifacts — where you can actually see where somebody chopped a piece of wood and formed it and made it into a dowel. You can see the care that went into it. What it is doing for some people and I got this from an elder Mary Jane Johnston said you know now we know our stories are real. And now we know that the stories are still being told on the land. So when the young people go out with Greg, they get to see firsthand their culture in action. They get to see where their ancestors were. So that whole idea of eliminating First Nations history is disappearing with this tactile, tangible way of actually seeing your culture come back out of the ice. And it's quite an incredible thing.

AMT: And it wasn't solely artifacts that have come out of that ice patch in the north. In 1999, the remains of a young man are found. Tell us about that discovery?

AG: The remains were actually found in northern B.C., just south of the Yukon border. Some hunters were out and they found a body and immediately went to Whitehorse and said we found something up there — it might be a hiker. Once they went to do the recovery, they started to realize OK, this is something older. There was clothing there. There was bits and pieces of a cloak that was made out of gopher skins. There was a hat that was made out of woven spruce root. There were these two walking sticks that might have been some sort of fishing gaff, or another sort of hunting weapon. And then there was a bag of hunting tools and snares.

AMT: All of this preserved?

AG: All of it preserved. The body was missing the head, so it wasn't a complete body. But the skin was there. And as scientists got to look at it, they were able to identify the contents of the young man's last meals. There was an immense amount of scientific information that came out of it. But it was also a controversial find. I'll go back to that land claims thing about you know who gets what and who gets to determine how finds are treated? And the First Nation, which is rooted in Haines Junction in the Yukon, so about two hours west of Whitehorse, it was on their traditional land. And they stepped in and they said wow! OK, we're in charge here. And we're going to determine what happens to the remains of this of this man. They gave him a name, which translates loosely as “long ago man found”. And the deal they struck with the B.C. government, because it was found in B.C., was you can have the remains for a year. You can do the scientific work on him. You can find the DNA. But after that, he comes back to us and we're going to treat him as a relation and we're going to give him a proper burial. It was a sort of a landmark decision. You might remember a story in the States about 20 years ago where they found the remains of a man called “Kennewick man”. And it was found on U.S. government property and the government said it's ours. And the local First Nations in the Pacific Northwest said no, he's ours. And it went back and forth in court for years. Anded up being a bitter fight and everybody came away with it angry. Nobody wanted a repeat of this in B.C. or the Yukon. So the discovery and the subsequent research and then how he was finally put to rest has become a model for what happens when you find human remains melting out of the ice.

AMT: And when he was discovered, the scientists also ran DNA tests. You report on this in the Indigenous community to see if he had any living relatives. They found 17 matches. Pearl Callaghan is one of those matches. She's a member of the Teslin tlingit Council. and she's with us from Whitehorse. Hello.

PERL CALLAGHAN: Morning.

AMT: What was your reaction, Ms. Callaghan when you first discovered that you shared an ancestor?

PC: Well, actually, I got called into the champagne Aishihik First Nation office by Lawrence Joe to come and meet him. And Lawrence was the Director of Lands and Resources. And he was also a senior staff person in this whole project. And when I went to his office, he shut the door and when he did that I knew it was going to be a serious meeting. I had no idea. And he said sit down. And I did and he said Pearl, do you remember when you participated in this community DNA study back in 1999 I believe it was or 2000? And I said yes. And he said do you remember the iceman that they found? And I said yes. And he said well, you're one of the relatives of this young man and was like are you serious? And you know you sit there, you're in shock, it's disbelief and it's exciting. And you know it's like being hit with a ton of bricks you know all at once. And you're very emotional. It's exciting that yes, I am one of the direct relatives of this young man. There's a feeling of wonderment too that came over me and you know it's a feeling of sadness for this young man because you know I am a grandmother. I have four grandsons and I know that this young man you know later on was found that he was between 17 and 19 years of age. And I have two grandsons that fall in that age category. And I think about them and wonder you know if they went out for an adventure, or hike, or hunting, or whatever and they didn't come back. You know you think about his family and you know they were probably wondering where is he? What happened to him, you know? And then they go looking for him. So there's a sense of sadness and loss there too. You know when you think about him. And he must have been very afraid, you know? Let's just say if he fell down and hurt himself and laid there, you know? And he's dying and there's no help. I just visualize him and how he how he must have felt. And there's a sense of loss there too and a connection because he is my relative.

AMT: And all these hundreds of years later, one of his relatives knows what happened to him.

PC: Yeah.

AMT: And so this is on your mother's side?

PC: Yes, I inherited this mitochondrial DNA through my mother.

AMT: What does it say to you to have that that connection on your mother's side going way back? What does it say to you as an Indigenous woman?

PC: Naturally, you feel validated. You're very connected. You know I mean I come from this land. I am part of this. I was familiar with the area because I actually have some land and I spent a lot of time up there. So you know, in a sense, I was attracted to that area you know and spent time there. When you think about him too he was walking and his load was light. And he wasn't carrying very much to eat because I mean he just took from the land as he went. And that's just how the people were. They were nomadic. They didn't leave a big, huge footprint on the land. They used it as they went. And I think that's a really good way to live actually.

AMT: It's great that you now have that link that it's something very tangible that you can understand. Pearl Callaghan, thank you for speaking with us.

PC: Thank you so much.

AMT: Pearl Callaghan is a member of the Teslin tlinget Council in Yukon. She joined us from Whitehorse. Andrew Gregg, they actually found food in his stomach that had also been preserved from like the shore. It was seafood.

AG: The science is always changing. The original the original discovery was that they thought OK, this is a young man from the Alaskan coast. They analyzed you know the contents of his stomach and then some other things that could get hold of. And it looked like he'd been raised or lived most of his life at the seafood diet. But they also found signs that he'd had a meal in the interior. So people have come up with their ideas of what he was doing. It looks like he'd been from the coast, had gone over the glaciers once, had spent some time in the interior, had gone back home and was on his way back again. Aow as science advances and stories expand maybe a new interpretation will come up.

AMT: And you make the point that ice patches around the world are being looked at, including other places in Canada. What are some of the most important discoveries then beyond what we've just talked about?

AG: Well, it's ice patches and glaciers too. The number of things that have been found it will boggle your mind. I mean they found two Italian First World War soldiers in the Italian Alps still at their post in the mountains. They found a plane that went down in the 50s in Alaska with all the occupants still inside. They’re finding lost hikers in the Alps. They’re finding people that went missing and disappeared maybe 20-30 years ago. They're finding them as well. And who knows what's going to come next? I mean this is this is part of the thing. This isn't traditional archaeology where you go and excavate and dig.

This is like you get what it gives you.

AMT: Yeah. And an ice patch, unlike a glacier, doesn't move.

AG: it doesn't move.

AMT: It’s stationary, so you don't know what's in there because it's been there in that spot essentially piling up.

AG: Glaciers move and migrate. And we have a scene in the film where we found a wrecked old Cessna airplane that went down 50 years ago in the Casco Walsh Glacier up there. And where it is on the glacier now is several kilometers from where it crashed because it migrates. Glaciers move because they're so big and they're fluid. Ice patches don't move. So if you find an atlatl shaft, it’s probably pretty close to where the hunter lost it. The thinking is that most of the time the hunting tools that Greg and his crew are finding are misses. They were flung or they were shot at an animal and missed. If you walked away with a caribou that day, you’d have the food but then you'd look at your kit and go oh, man. I spent a lot of time making that. And so I think the thinking is that most of the time these are misses.

AMT: It's extraordinary what the importance of it, especially at a time when we're looking at Indigenous culture and knowledge and understanding more.

AG: I think too in the Yukon situation, it's amazing to me amazingly coincidental to me that they started finding this stuff just as the land claims were being settled. Just as political power was going back into the hands of the First Nations. You know this was found in the 30s or 40s, where it could be all carted off to Ottawa, right? It was found locally and it's been kept locally. And it's there not only for the validation that Perl talks about. But it's there to teach the younger generations too. I mean what you're seeing up there is a rebirth of culture. I used to live up there. And in the 80s, you didn't see dance troops and the carving tradition was almost dead. Now it's flourishing. And the fact that these were found at the same time as this was starting to happen is incredible to me. It's almost as if the ice waited, you know? And now it's out. It's really something.

AMT: Andrew Gregg, thank you.

AG: Thank you

AMT: Andy Gregg is a journalist and film maker with 90th Parallel Productions. His documentary, “Secrets from the Ice” will air on CBC's “The Nature of Things” this Sunday night at 8:00 in all time zones. Let us know what you think as you're listening to him talking about these artifacts that are thousands of years old. Or anything else you heard on our program today. You can tweet us: we are @thecurrentcbc. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website:www.cbc.ca/thecurrent.

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November 16, 2017 episode transcript

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