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The Current Transcript for October 30, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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I learned about periods, body parts,how you make babies. I thought it was interesting and got me more curiouser and curiouser.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Lots of young people are curiouser and curiouser about sex. But if they have any kind of a cognitive or physical disability, the chances of that curiosity leading to the information they need are not high, especially in the classroom. Many people with physical or intellectual challenges say they've been denied and excluded from proper sex education often because they are seen as asexual, and somehow not worthy of inclusion in the wider classroom discussion. In half an hour, we will hear from a few people who refuse to be silent or left out. Also today:

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[Crosstalk]

ANCHOR 1: Okay. Here he is.

ANCHOR 2: What I expected..

ANCHOR 3: We're seeing… we're seeing Manafort come in now with council…

AMT: The cameras were rolling this morning as Paul Manafort walked into the FBI field office in Washington D.C. Paul Manafort is U.S. president Donald Trump's former campaign chair. He and former associate were ordered to surrender to authorities to face the first charges in a U.S. special counsel investigation into Russian meddling and potential collusion in the U.S. election. We will tell you more in about an hour. But we begin with another political story where few can predict the ending.

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They have passed the votes for independence here in the Catalan parliament's. Catalonia has gone its own way from Spain and now a period of great uncertainty.

AMT: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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'Talking politics in television in Catalonia is a risky sport': Public broadcaster fears Spain takeover

Guests: Gerry Hadden, Toni Cruanyas, Carolina de Miguel Moyer

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[Crowds chanting with music: Viva Espana]

AMT: Hundreds of thousands of supporters of a unified Spain took to the streets of Barcelona yesterday. And what has been called one of the biggest shows of force by the so-called ‘silent majority unwilling to accept the push for Catalan independence’. That was in sharp contrast to this, on Friday:

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[Crowds chanting in indistinct language]

AMT: As lawmakers sang what they call the national anthem of a newly independent Catalonia inside the regional parliament, just after Friday's vote for independence from Spain, the reaction from Madrid was swift. The central government rejected the declaration and invoked Article 155 of the country's constitution. That allows Madrid to take control of the region and its institutions. Within hours Spain had fired Catalonia’s regional government and dissolved its parliament. And just to underline the division, a poll released yesterday suggested a slight lead for political parties opposed to Catalan independence. Gerry Hadden has been following all of this. He's a freelance journalist based in Barcelona. Hello.

GERRY HADDEN: Good morning.

AMT: What's the mood like in Barcelona today?

GERRY HADDEN: It feels a bit again like another calm before another storm. Everyone's eyes are on the Catalan parliament this morning because the dismissed President Carles Puigdemont and his cabinet all insist that they in fact still are in power. The only people who can remove them from power are the Catalan people themselves. And so all weekend long they were saying they were going to show up for work on Monday morning, despite Madrid's orders. The president himself or the ex-president -depending on your point of view - it's not sure if he has arrived yet but at least one of his ministers did show up and tweeted a photo of himself actually working. So everyone is wondering and expecting that at some point the national police or the local Catalan police will come in to escort those folks out and to present them before a judge for usurping authority. So that's sort of the standoff that we're waiting for, we're living this morning but as of yet nothing happened.

AMT: So take us through that independence vote on Friday. How did it unfold?

GERRY HADDEN: It was quite amazing to watch, I have to say, because as the debate opened almost one half of the Catalan parliament got up and walked out and as they walked out insults were hurled back and forth between the two sides. The anti-independence folks didn't even want to participate in the vote which they considered it illegitimate. The vote went down. It was a secret ballot because the members of the Catalan parliament voting apparently didn't want to expose themselves to immediate criminal charges for sedition or rebellion. The boat passed handily and then, as we heard earlier, the singing began. Outside, huge crowds of pro-independence people began cheering. Immediately Madrid acted to invoke Article 155 and essentially dismissed the entire government and, in their eyes, the movement.

AMT: And so that pro-independence side that was singing inside, what kind of support they had on the streets on the weekend?

GERRY HADDEN: Pretty low. I mean the weekend really belong to the unity people, you know. The march yesterday was somewhere between 200 and 300,000 people. There were Catalan and Spanish flags flying. It was very festive atmosphere. It seems like the independence supporters are sort of sitting back now waiting to see what's going to happen to their elected leaders today, and then possibly even falling back on the next sort of strategy and their larger plan which is to use the snap elections that the prime minister Mariano Rajoy has called for December, as a kind of second plebiscite or referendum on the same issue independence.

AMT: And so right now it sounds rather friendly. Does that have a finite time on it? Are people worried about each side turning on the other?

GERRY HADDEN: I mean to some degree there is that worry of course. I mean there was some violence on the day of the referendum itself as you'll recall. I think that if the police go in and actually arrest for example Carles Puigdemont, if he shows up at Parliament for work, then we could see some serious pushing and shoving on the streets in the near term. But there isn't an overall sense that by any means that the Catalan people are you know preparing to raise up an armed revolt or anything close to that. So I think what we might see in the coming days are protests and that might lead to some localized confrontations. But I'm not thinking that we're going to see larger scale violence.

AMT: And of course you talk about arrests. The police chief was also fired when the Madrid government stepped in. Was he not?

GERRY HADDEN: He was. But the second in command of the Mossos d'Esquadra - which is the name of the Catalan police - was promoted into that position. So, that was, I would say, a smart move on the part of the central government rather than say sending somebody from Madrid to take over the police. Remains to be seen, whether or not for example, today, if the central government which is now controlling Catalonia says “hey go in and arrest these usurpers of power”. It remains to be seen whether the Mossos d'Esquadra will follow those orders as they've been ordered to do. If they don't, then things get complicated. The national police might have to come in and do that job and then that's going to make manifest a very deep division within the local police force itself.

AMT: Now Prime Minister Rajoy has said the move of direct rule on Catalonia is essential to “recover normality”. What does he mean by that?

GERRY HADDEN: Well he what he wants is to see a government in place here that will reject the independence movement. The problem is that he has called for snap elections in December but polls indicate that there's a very good chance that the same power dynamic will continue here. In other words a coalition of independence minded parties will be able to muster a majority and form a government. And when that happens you know essentially we're back to square one.

AMT: Lots to watch for in the coming days. Gerry, thank you.

GERRY HADDEN: My pleasure.

AMT: Gerry Hadden, freelance journalist based in Barcelona. He joined us from Barcelona.

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[Chatter]

AMT: Well that's the sound of Catalonaa public radio being attacked Friday night by those opposed to independence from Spain. Spain's announcement that it plans to take over Catalonians public institutions has many civil servants worried and they include those who work for the public broadcaster. Tony Cruanyas is television news anchor for Public Television's TV3. He's in Barcelona. Hello.

TONI CRUANYAS: Hi, good morning.

AMT: So the radio Catalonia windows were smashed Friday night. How has the Catalonia media been targeted in this movement?

TONI CRUANYAS: Well to tell you the truth we are not talking about national mood, and national identity these days. So it becomes clear that when it comes to explain what's going on here there's several different point of views, and well the Catalan public broadcasters both radio and television explaining what's going on in a way that the Spanish media don't like at all. So that has made us target of some attacks, mostly verbal attacks or accusations, one would say but sometimes as it happened on Friday we are physically attacked as well.

AMT: And so what are your concerns for the public broadcaster now that Parliament has been dissolved and Madrid has invoked this article in the Constitution?

TONI CRUANYAS: Well we are feared to be silenced but at the same time I have to say that people here - today for example I'm here in my TV station working as a normal day. It doesn't seem to me that central governments from Spain is strong enough to impose these direct rule to each of the Department of the Catalan government, as it is easier for them to impose direct rule in the Catalan police, for example. It is very difficult to impose it in schools, in hospitals or even in television and radio stations.

AMT: How have you and the Catalan public broadcaster approached your coverage to the independence movement?

TONI CRUANYAS: Well as a public television we've been working in pluralistic view of what's going on and at the same time being as neutral and objective as we can. I'm sure that they may be people that the opposite, in both sides I have to say, that there's a lot of pro-independence people that think that we are we are not pro-independence enough, and there's on the other side some of the people against independence don't think that because we do give voice to in pro-independence leaders we are part of the pro-independence movement.

AMT: Well I was going to ask you if you felt pressure, but it sounds like you're getting pressure on both sides then.

TONI CRUANYAS: Oh yes, these days talking politics in television in Catalonia is a risky sport, I would say.

AMT: We know last month the central government in Spain said that it would prosecute media companies that advertise the independence referendum. Did that have any impact on you?

TONI CRUANYAS: It could have. Not for the moment it seems but it could have. I think it might be probably more something to do with some fines, not all that kind of - I don't know maybe getting some people in prison, but still we are living in a very divided society right now. I think Catalonia has been for decades an example of cohesion. Even when you talk about all the places in the world where there have been conflicts - violent conflicts – here now there is a national debate which I really hope and I believe is going to end up in a sort of deal which will make things a lot easier, even if that means that we're going to be independent or probably not.

AMT: And so how do you move forward in your coverage? What kinds of things do you have to make sure you do in the coming days and weeks to make sure you're covering all sides in this issue?

TONI CRUANYAS: Yes. Well there's one thing that is easy to do is just sort of timing the time that pro-independence leaders and anti-independent leaders speaking in front of the camera. So you have to try and see that you are actually giving airtime to both sides. But then there's something a bit more difficult and now I'm going to a meeting to try to discuss how do we have to talk about Carles Puigdemont, is he's still the president of Catalonia, is he the president of the out will proclaim Catalan Republic or is he completely dismissed. So he's already a normal citizen. How are we going to refer to him? Well that's one of the big questions we have to decide today.

AMT: Because you have to decide whether you would you use his view of who he is, or the Madrid's view of who he is or you use both?

TONI CRUANYAS: Exactly how can you say I mean, now we've got a president that has proclaimed Catalan republic with an overall majority the Catalan Parliament. So he is for them the president of the Catalan Republic. But on the other hand you've got direct rule from Madrid dismissing him. So he, for them, he's not president anymore. How are we supposed to call him?

AMT: Okay, well Toni Cruanyas. Thanks for speaking with me today.

TONI CRUANYAS: Thank you.

AMT: Toni Cruanyas journalist and television news anchor for Catalonians public broadcaster TV3. He joined us from Barcelona. Well what is happening in Catalonia has implications beyond Spain and throughout the European Union. Carolina De Miguel Moyer is an assistant professor of political science at the University of Toronto an affiliated faculty at the Munk School of Global Affairs. She joins me in our Toronto studio. Hi.

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: Hi. Glad to be here.

AMT: Good to have you with us and since you've walked in here, there have been a couple of news alerts. One is that the Catalonian parliament has canceled the meeting for Tuesday following this government takeover, essentially confirming - according to Reuters - the regional legislative body has accepted Madrid's order for it to dissolve. Now there are also news reports out that Spain's state prosecutor is calling for charges against Catalonians leaders for rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds. So I don't know what do you think? These are quick news alerts.

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: I think we were all expectant what was going to happen Monday if the Catalan administration and the police were going to fall in line with the direct rule from Madrid, or whether they're going to resist. I think this story is not over yet and it's not going to be simple. It seems like the court of Catalan parliament is falling in line. But there's also news that the top officials from the former Catalan administration might resist or are in the process of creating a parallel state and administration, or maintaining the one they have. So it's unclear what's going to happen.

AMT: It's all still in play. What was your immediate reaction to the Declaration of Independence in the parliament?

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: I think it was a culmination of a series of missteps and missed opportunities by both sides. It was seen as a logical conclusion from one side - from the pro secessionist side - but to me it felt that it put us in one of the worst scenarios, which is a declaration of independence that is probably not going to be recognized internationally and does not have the full support of the Catalan population and that's worrisome on the one hand. But that is accompanied by what will be expected which is the application of non-preceded measure in Spain, which has direct rule from the Spanish government and that is also not a good scenario.

AMT: Were you surprised at the Spanish government coming right in to dissolve parliament and do this direct rule under article 155?

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: No I think that is consistent with their legalistic approach to this process. It might be not the best strategy, in my opinion to resolving or finding a compromise solution to this conflict, but it is very much in line with how they've been behaving. So it was much expected.

AMT: And Spain does have this article in its constitution but from what I'm reading it's not clear that they actually know how to take control of everything. It's kind of uncharted territory. Is it not?

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: It is uncharted territory. I mean it's a delicate issue. How you take control of a territory - a part of your territory especially if there is some resistance from a part of the population. And this is what is worrisome I think to me and to many people which is why we're expecting about today. Is everybody going to fall in line voluntarily? Probably not both from top officials and from part of the population. And if that's not the case, then what is the next move by the Spanish government. Are they going to bring in force or not? And that could further escalate things. And that is worrisome.

AMT: And so what do you make of these polls from yesterday that suggest that there is a slight lead amongst those the parties that want unity with Spain?

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: I mean first polls right now are hard to interpret. We live in a very volatile situation politically, so it's hard to know exactly whether we can trust them or not. However, I think it's pretty clear that the society is divided and that it's mostly 50-50 or 40-50, 50-40 depending on when you ask them , supporters of Independence. What is also important to note is that there was an symmetry in that pro-independence forces were much more mobilized and we saw that in the referendum in October 1^st. And so they turned out to vote massively whereas the silent majority did not was not as mobilized or organized. Now I think the situation is going to be different now and I think that's why we see a little bit more strength from the pro or anti-independence side they might be a stronger force in the upcoming regional elections because the events have or have started to mobilize that side.

AMT: And what are you anticipating, then? Because Madrid has declared a regional election in December. What are you anticipating that in terms of even just the willingness of people to go along with an election?

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: Yes. Right. There's several very interesting questions here. First, whether everybody's going to participate in these elections, especially the pro secessionist camp. They have 10 days to decide whether they're going to enter into the election contest. And I think they're still deciding whether they want to give legitimacy to this election that was called by the central government or not. The other issue that I think we should consider is whether this election might solve the conflict that we have right now or the dispute that we have right now between the Catalan government and the Spanish government. If the distribution of forces ends up being very similar, it might not solve the issue.

AMT: It could just bring them right back to where they are and…

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: Yes and we're here for a while.

AMT: Now the European Union is not recognizing this declaration of independence.

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: No.

AMT: And tell me what's at play there?

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: Well the European Union did not recognize that and is following in line with what one would expect. No or a very few independent states and the EU included as a supranational organization wouldn't want to accept a unilateral declaration of independence for various reasons. There is the principle of territorial integrity is pretty sacred within the international system of states. And although one might argue that boundaries are territorial boundaries are arbitrary in that they are the result of historical conflict. Moving those boundaries or changing them is not an arbitrary thing. There is a public good which is stability and peace. That is [unintelligible] international system. I think the EU and other states are wary of allowing for these redrawing of boundaries. And for the EU in particular I think this is an existential threat in that the EU was created precisely or was born from the ashes of World War II, as a counter movement to the nationalist conflict that had ripped Europe apart. So for the EU particularly the redrawing of boundaries and nationalism is a threat or an existential threat.

AMT: And I would imagine that there are other separatist movements out there that what countries want to quell that don't want to see the recognizing anything quickly.

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: Exactly. So, there's a fear of contagion is there as well.

AMT: Lots to watch for in the coming days and weeks.

CAROLINA DE MIGUEL MOYER: Very interesting.

AMT: Thank you for coming in. Carolina De Miguel Moyer, an assistant professor of political science at the University of Toronto and affiliated faculty at the Munk school of global affairs. She's with me in our Toronto studio. Let us know what you think as you listen to this, as Spain grapples with all of this and Catalonia independence is in the headlines and on the streets. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC, find us on Facebook, go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Stay with us. The news is next and then all too often for young Canadians with physical and cognitive disability sex education is missing in the classroom. They don't think that's fair. Moving past the taboos to talk sex and disability in our next half hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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THE CURRENT | 'I have sex. Get over it': Disability activists call for sex education

Guest: Kaleigh Trace, Shaniff Esmail, Andrew Gurza

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come find out about the first charges stemming from the past special investigation in the U.S. about possible ties between Donald Trump's presidential campaign and Russia. But first let's talk about sex.

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People with disabilities don't have the opportunity to learn about sexual health, until their mid-20s. There are studies showing that we tune it out in high school and don't really learn it until later on in life because we don't think the curriculum applies to us. So I think there are a variety of issues specific to the lack of sexual health curriculum for students with disabilities, or these conversations that are put in many students with disabilities and women with disabilities at risk.

AMT: Well that's Sarah from Hamilton, Ontario, who has cerebral palsy and she was one of the many listeners we heard from when we hosted a special call in show last month about inclusion in the classroom. The topic she raised is key. Sex ed is probably as important a topic as English or math in some ways but many people with disabilities say they are left out of the conversation. It can be frustrating and unfair. So we're taking Sarah's lead in exploring the topic of sex ed and people with disabilities.

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I learned about periods, body parts. I was aware about how you make babies, like the man's penis has to go into the woman's vagina. I thought it was interesting and got me more curiouser and curiouser.

AMT: Well that's 24 year old Jessica Coole she is sitting across from her mother Michelle Morgan-Coole, at home in New Minas, Nova Scotia. And she's tackling just about the most awkward topic you could broach with a parent: Sex. Jessica has a cognitive disability and her mom says that makes the conversation difficult for her. Our producer Mary Catherine McIntosh visited them. Here they are beginning with Jessica.

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JESSICA COOLE: Well I thought it was gross. At first I saw diagrams and demonstrations and I think “Hmm, that's interesting.” I'm like “how do they do all this? Why is it important?”

MICHELLE MORGAN-COOLE: I'm trying to remember with both my daughters. I know in middle school I really went looking for information about sex for Jessica in particular but her sister as well. It was very difficult. I went through the middle school the guidance department to try to find something that would be more tailored to Jessica's understanding and was unable to find anything. So we just talked about it at home, tried to keep it to her level. I tell her that it's through a special relationship that I hope both her and her sister would wait until they had sort of a committed partner. Of course the problem with that is anytime you with somebody else you do believe usually it's a committed relationship, no matter how long it's been.

JESSICA COOLE: I had a boyfriend once. His name was Carson and him and I go on dates once a week and we share a meal together. We do things together. He comes over. I come over. It was 50/50.

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: And how did it end?

JESSICA COOLE: It was sex in the bedroom. Well I was laying on the bed with Carson and he was on one side of me, I was on one side of him and were like laying on top of each other. And he said “oh, it feels good.” And the assistant has to a door and said “that's got to stop right now.”

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: And what were you feeling?

JESSICA COOLE: Oh I was like “Uh-oh I am in trouble.”

MICHELLE MORGAN-COOLE: My take on what happened was that Jessica and her boyfriend, who was challenged, pushed a little bit too far into that area and it got uncomfortable for both of them. And unfortunately they've been friends since they were little. It actually ended, not just the boyfriend girlfriend, but actually their friendship. So I told Jess afterwards that when we push into a relationship or where part of it that we're not ready for, Sometimes bad things can happen. So I'm hoping she might have learned something from that.

JESSICA COOLE: I was worried that I was going to get pregnant.

MICHELLE MORGAN-COOLE: Well we've given Jessica various reasons for abstaining from sex right now, one of them being the fact that if she got pregnant she couldn't take care of a baby. Also the fact that you have to learn to be a friend before you can get into an intimate relationship. But it's something that Jessica's certainly been interested in over the years. And as long as she keeps telling me what's going on, which I really appreciate, I can sort of help guide her.

JESSICA COOLE: Well makes me wonder saying “Is she really serious? Is she is she trying to really protect me?” and all that. Like I know moms are good. But I find that when I hear her response it makes me want to go “oh my! What is she thinking?” and all that stuff.

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: Why “oh my”?

JESSICA COOLE: Because I thought she was- I thought she was trying to tell a point here that I should have done something right in the first place, instead of doing what I was doing.

MICHELLE MORGAN-COOLE: I used to say, when people would say to me “Well what are you going to do when she's 40?” And I would say “well if my five year old wanted to have sex and I've let that happen Children's Aid would rightly be at my door”. And if she's emotionally at that level and I still sort of feel that way but less so, it is a struggle. And how will I feel next week next year. I don't know. It's an adventure for both of us.

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: So in terms of romance, what do you want in your life?

JESSICA COOLE: Well...

MICHELLE MORGAN-COOLE: Jessica, you know what romance is? No. You’ve got to ask if you don't know.

JESSICA COOLE: What's romance?

MICHELLE MORGAN-COOLE: I think of romance is sort of when you have a boyfriend or girlfriend and you go out and you do things together and spend time together, and you really like one another in the feeling that gives you.

JESSICA COOLE: Well I want a guy who has a good sense of humor, fun to hang around with, a guy that will be challenging, a guy that's easy going. I like all the expections from the guy.

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: Do you think about guys a lot?

JESSICA COOLE: Oh! I've been thinking about them saying “I wish I could go find the guy”.

MICHELLE MORGAN-COOLE: She's out on her own a lot. And one of the things we've been working on is to try to get those red flag moments that you might have if you are in the community and someone starts talking to us. Jessica had an experience on the bus one day when someone started talking to her and told her she was cute. And afterward she said to me “Well Mom I am cute. I try hard to be cute.” And I said “yeas, that's great”. But we sort of have to think about if it all makes sense. And so we've used the circles program for years which sort of teaches about strangers and acquaintances and friends and what's appropriate for touch talk and trust. The problem is Jessica is really good at it she can tell you anybody, what circle they are in. But in the moment she has trouble applying it.

JESSOCA COOLE: I find that whenever a stranger comes up to me or wants me to go out with him, I find that I have red flags at that very moment saying “uh-oh! I should do something at this moment. What should I do?”

MICHELLE MORGAN-COOLE: I do want to protect her. No. I know I can't lock you in a box. But when you try to mix all that together; yes it's not easy and it's not fun. It is hard to talk about.

JESSICA COOLE: Thanks mom for saying you'll lock me in a box.

[Laughter]

MICHELLE MORGAN-COOLE: I said I wouldn't lock you in a box.

JESSICA COOLE: But you sound like it for a minute.

AMT: Michelle Morgan-Coole and her 24 year old daughter Jessica Coole. Jessica has a cognitive disability. Well talking about sex may not always be easy but for people with different cognitive and physical abilities just finding good sex ed information can be virtually impossible. And the consequences carry on well beyond school. I'm joined by two people who want to change that and make the conversation a little easier for everyone. Kaleigh Trace tours high schools and universities speaking about sex and disability. She has a spinal cord injury. She is in Ottawa. Andrew Gurza has a podcast called disability after dark. He has cerebral palsy and uses a wheelchair and he's with me in Toronto. Hello to you both.

KALEIGH TRACE: Hello.

ANDREW GURZA: Hi.

AMT: Kaleigh, as you were listening to them and Jessica talks about getting curiouser and curiouser about sex, do you remember that point in your life?

KALEIGH TRACE: Yeah I mean Jessica and I have different disabilities and our experiences are going to be different but I felt so much empathy hearing her confusion around what this thing is and the total lack of information. And I feel a lot of empathy for Michelle too, because it is really hard to find resources to help explain that stuff.

AMT: And Andrew what were you thinking exactly the thing.

ANDREW GURZA: Exactly the same. I thought it was so hard because the daughter was saying she wants to break out. She wants to try all the things. She wants to do all this and her mom was saying: “I'm scared. I don't know how to support my daughter.” And I just I felt a lot of empathy for both.

AMT: What was missing from sex education for you, Kaleigh?

KALEIGH TRACE: Personally I didn't get any sex education from my education system at least. When I was a student, which was not long ago, sex ed was delivered in gym class, and as a disabled kid I wasn't part of gym class. So I didn't really get any, aside from that which my parents taught me.

AMT: And so because you weren't in gym class and so did you feel you were missing out? Did you feel that somehow like you were just treated differently on that front?

KALEIGH TRACE: Yes. I mean it's very confusing I think for all kids regardless of their abilities to figure out how sex works. And then the messages that we do get be it from caregivers or educational institutions or most often our peers is really centered around normative bodies. So like you will get an erection or you will produce lubricant, which are not the words that teens use, but that's the idea. And bodies don't all work the same. So if you know that your body will operate differently, it's really hard to understand even what to expect of sexuality.

AMT: And you may not know right away how differently your body will react.

KALEIGH TRACE: Ah hmm. Yes.

AMT: Andrew, do you want to jump into that?

ANDREW GURZA: I got sex ed in grade 9. Grade 9 and 10 and again it was it was geared toward straight able bodied teens. And so you learn about having babies. You learn about erections. You learn about all of these things. And for me a young queer person with a disability I was looking at all this stuff going “none of this applies to me. None of this is relevant to my life.” So I remember in grade 9 in the first semester of health class, I flunked it because I just didn't see- I didn't understand why I was learning this and why I had to learn this, if none of this was going to be happening to me, you know. And so I just didn't - I never connected with sex ed when I was being taught it in grade 9.

AMT: Why do you think her experience was left out, Andrew?

ANDREW GURZA: I think it's I think a lot of people with disabilities their experiences in sexual health they're left out because we don't - even in 2017 - we don't know how to talk about sex and disability properly, honestly, frankly and it is still a taboo. I do so many talk and so much work. When I go give the talk, there's a shock value of like: “Oh! Let's talk about sex and disability. Wow! It's a big shock”, when really those of us who live with it are like there's nothing shocking about it. I just want to tell my experiences. I think it's missing because the curriculum has no idea how to incorporate that in an inclusive way that values the disabled body and values the disabled experience.

AMT: Kaleigh, what were the consequences of the missing information for you as you became sexually active?

KALEIGH TRACE: Well we all have different experiences as people with disabilities. Disability is such a broad spectrum. For me, in my disability I can access most spaces. I walk with a cane but in a lot of ways my body does fit into normative ideas. And for a lot of my teenage hood I was able to just get by and pretend to be normal and do my best to fit in. And then it wasn't until I was a little bit older and more politicized about what it means to be a person with a disability, and why that's a valuable identity, that I was like “oh wait! I don't need to try to perform in this particular way, and I can be just as valuable and desirable because I'm disabled and not despite of being disabled.”

AMT: But that was a message you had to give yourself. No one was giving you that much.

KALEIGH TRACE: No no no no no. Those messages don't exist. Like what Andrea had said about how the curriculum isn't ready for understanding sex and disability. I would just say applies just like society as a whole. People do not know how to understand disabled bodies as desirable and people with disabilities as sexually valid.

AMT: Andrew let's talk a little bit about that because that's exactly what you discuss in your podcast. First of all, why don't you start the podcast? How did it come to be?

ANDREW GURZA: I've been doing this work as a freelancer now for I want to say six years. I decided that I'm a queer disabled person, six years ago. I'm still I don't see myself in a spectrum and I'm tired of that. So I just started doing thing. Hey let's talk about it. Let's write about it. I started writing for Huffington Post years and years ago. And then I realized that a podcast for me is a really accessible medium because it doesn't require writing. It doesn't require any kind of a lot of physical labor, just requires my voice which I'm lucky enough to be able to use. And I decided that I really wanted to talk about it and I wanted to see if it was a conversation people wanted to engage in. And what I found was that wow people really do. People are clamoring for this information because we don't have it. Because when I give a talk at universities and call when I go do this stuff, I am with the same questions almost every time: “How do you have sex? Can you have sex? It's actually impossible for you? What kind of positions do you like?” They want to know all these things. I think if we taught them that or at least started the conversation at a much younger age, showing them look: This is somebody who is a wheelchair user. This is somebody who uses a cane. This is somebody with a cognitive or intellectual disability. Here's how they navigate the world, 14 year old, 15 year old, here so it is. Their viewpoints would change because they're taught that at a much younger age.

KALEIGH TRACE: Can I just jump in and add something to what Andrew said?

AMT: Sure.

KALEIGH TRACE: I also think we have a very, in all sex education and just socially in the broader world, our idea of sex is often that a penis penetrates a vagina, or to include people who are LGBTQ, that there is like some kind of penetration of some kind of orifice, which is such a limited idea of how bodies can come together. And I think it's slowly beginning to change to involve sex is like erotic pleasurable acts that don't necessarily mean putting things in things. Then bis would be included in a more broad sense from the very beginning. So I think our entire notions of what is sexy and what sex is need to start slowly shifting. It is a really big goal but I think it's fun that people in sex education are working on across Canada and the United States. And I do feel hopeful despite all the negative things we've said.

AMT: What do you think Andrew?

ANDREW GURZA: I agree. I think disability allows you to change the narrative so the idea penetration, to be quite frank, for me is not possible. So my body doesn't do that. So I had to learn how to change the narrative to find what was sexy for me. And so we if we look at the sex education outside of penetration, disability allows you to look at sex in a whole different way, change the idea of what is erotic, change the idea of touch, change the idea of all those things because disability has forced me - as a wheelchair user and I sort of need a lot of assistance in my day to day – even to just access sex, I need my partner to be really well versed in what I require. But that required communication. So I think sex ed right now is a bunch of diagrams and pictures from years ago that are just the basics, when we really look at sex, especially with in relation to disability it's so much more complex.

AMT: You have also made points in your podcast that it logistically it can be difficult as well. You might need an attendant…

ANDREW GURZA: For me to have sex I need to be taken out of my chair, put on wherever we're doing that. And I need support. So you need to say to your attendant like “I need to get out of my chair, I need to get undressed.” I usually say this to the person that I'm having sex with. I try. I teach them what to do and say if we're going to do this, this is part of what I require. But it's not an easy conversation because we think - when we think of sex - we think of usually porn, or what we see on TV. And so it's quick. You're just supposed to know what to do. And there's no discussion. When you're disabled that can't- That isn't accessible. You have to talk about it. And sometimes I don't want to but if I'm going to have sex safely and probably for myself I have to. I need help to get out of my chair, put in the bed, undressed redressed, sometimes repositioned, sometimes help with the bathroom all during it. But it requires a lot of conversation that I don't think many of us are ready to have. When I engaged with a partner and say “Hey, before we do this I want to have like a 20 minute conversation laying out what is required”. They [unintelligible] because it's not something we're ready for. Sex is supposed to be innate.

AMT: And spontaneous.

ANDREW GURZA: And with disability that just often isn't. But there can be some fun in that communication building.

AMT: What do you think Kaleigh?

KALEIGH TRACE: Well I guess I think that, like what Andrea has just described like heating assistance and wanting to talk first about how the sex is going to go, I actually don't think that should be specific to people whose bodies are different. Right. Like I know that I've never- I've been disabled since I was a kid. So all the kinds of sex I've had have been as a disabled person but I can't- Like I think it would be bizarre that two people should get together if they don't know each other and have sex in some way without at least talking about like what feels good. And actually that is how sex most often goes. I think we don't often talk about it like “this is what I want. This is what would feel good. This is how I'd like to proceed”. But wouldn't the worlds and sex be so much more exciting if it was normalized to have conversations about how we want to do it before we do it.

AMT: Well I mean you're hitting on something else and that is the assumption by those who do not live with a cognitive or physical disability, that those who do are somehow a sexual or non-sexual and I mean that's part of the problem right?

KALEIGH TRACE: Yes that's a huge part of the problem and I think a big part of why sex doesn't happen.

AMT: I'm wondering too how this goes when you talk to doctors about sex? Do you get the support you need?

[Kaleigh and Andrew laugh]

KALEIGH TRACE: Do you want to go for a….

AMT: [Laughs] There's my answer, but yes. Go ahead.

ANDREW GURZA: So, funny story. Really quick. I went to the doctor last year for an STI test. I hadn't been tested in a while. So I was like “How do I do this”. I decided to go to my local ER because they thought if they have to do a bigger test take me out of my chair do something, do you know swabs or whatever it is they have to do. They have everything there. It is the ER. They'll have everything. So I walk to the ER and I say: “Hi. I would like to have an STI test.” And the nurse said - she looked me up and down and said: “Why are you here for that? Was this kind of game to do?” I said “I [unintelligible] because I'm sexually active and I'd like to have a test please.” A couple hours later the doctor came and saw me and he says “You can just go to your GP for that.” And I said “Actually my GP’s office is not physically accessible to me. I can't get out of my chair in there. That's why I'm here.” And then when it came time for testing they were going to do a needle and a urine. But they didn't know how to do that for me. The nurses didn't know how to take my blood and didn't know how to draw urine to do the test. I told them what to do and they figured it out. But I just thought this is not how testing should go. This is not how people with disability should be treated when they're trying to get tested. It should be accessible and the fact that in so many places is not accessible, speaks to a huge problem with how we see people with disabilities.

AMT: Kaliegh, what's your experience?

KALEIGH TRACE: Well I think the health care practitioners have such a unique opportunity to talk to disabled people about our bodies because that's what they're doing. Like I've been in the health care system since I was nine, with medical professionals like touching my genitals, talking to me about them since I was a small kid. And in that experience nobody ever mentioned that like not only is this a place where medical procedures will happen, but it's also where sex happens, and it could feel good. And I find it so shocking that I was taught about my urethra but not like a clitoris. You know. They're beside each other. So I feel disappointed that the health care system hasn't better aligned with the responsibility of teaching about sex education.

AMT: So what needs to change? What would you like to see happen? Is there a way to take the things that you're both pointing to and actually see some improvement?

KALEIGH TRACE: Yes. I mean I think that sex ed is actually changing right now in ways that are quite hopeful, in particular Action Canada which is a national network just put out a book called Beyond the Basics about how to teach sex ed that's a really inclusive and exciting. I think that with that I wish that healthcare practitioners had more exposure to ideas about disability politics and how ableism works. Instead of just getting fed ideas that disability needs to be cured, that instead of people with disabilities were understood as complete humans that don't actually need to be fixed at all times.

ANDREW GURZA: Yes, the biggest issue in both of these spears, in the educational system and the medical system is ableism. We are afraid to talk about. It is very well meaning. We all mean well. We don't want to offend anybody but when we don't include or we don't talk about it, that is ableism. And ableism is just really discrimination against people with disabilities, but also it breeds a more wider misunderstanding and doctors don't understand because they've not had enough exposure. The educational system does not understand because they haven't had enough exposure. So we need to bring people like myself and Kaleigh and people who do this consulting work in to come and talk to schools and to doctors, and say “look here's what I think you need to know. I'm only sharing my experience but maybe now we can widen this together.”

AMT: Okay. It's important to hear your voices, thank you both.

ANDREW GURZA: Thank you.

KALEIGH TRACE: Thanks for having us.

AMT: That's Kaleigh Trace, sex educator who has a spinal cord injury. She's in our Ottawa studio. Andrew Gurza is the creator of the podcast Disability after Dark. He has cerebral palsy. He has been with me in our Toronto studio. We're going to continue this discussion in our next half hour. I'll be joined by Shaniff Ismail who teaches health care workers how to talk about sex and disabilities. And we want to hear from you on this topic if you can relate. If you two have a physical or cognitive challenge. Let us know about your sex ed experiences in school and beyond. You can find all our contact information by going to our website at cbc.ca/thecurrent and clicking on the Contact link. Find us on Facebook find us on Twitter. We are @TheCurrentCBC. Also in our next half hour we'll talk to a U.S. reporter tracking the latest news out of Washington today is that Paul manna Ford and his former business associate Rick Gates have been told to surrender to federal authorities this morning. The first charges in a special counsel investigation. Lots to ask about there. Lots still unfolding. They haven't even seen all the court documents yet, going on in Washington right now. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, This is The Current. We're back in just over 90 seconds.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Hi I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. We're going to continue the conversation that we began in our last half hour. We're talking about sex education for people with disability. It is a subject that came up during our special call in show earlier this month about inclusion in the classroom. And as we've been hearing so far today good sex ed can be difficult to get for people with different physical and cognitive abilities. Shaniff Ismail has been listening and he's a professor and associate chair in rehabilitation in the department of occupational therapy at the University of Alberta. He helped develop an online program to teach health care workers how to respectfully address sex and disability. He joins us from Edmonton. Hello.

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Morning.

AMT: What were you thinking as you listened to my last two guests?

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Well it's very typical. I teach sexuality to the occupational therapy as well as a rehab medicine students as well as medical students. And I do use peer educators because they're so right using somebody who's going through the experience is so important to get the true impact of the disability on their sexual functioning as well as a sexual health.

AMT: Why aren't young people with disabilities getting the sex education they need?

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Well there's a lot of issues. I mean the biggest thing is the stigma. What we find is parents for example are uncomfortable. And on top of that as I think was Kaleigh who described how she didn't take gym class so she didn't get sex education. I did a large study that was funded by the Canadian Council for learning and my whole study was looking at sex education guidelines for children with disabilities. And I did focus groups with various groups, for example individuals that cerebral palsy just like Andrew, spinal cord injury just like Kaleigh, burns survivors, hearing impairment, visual impairment, so I did a whole bunch of different cohorts. And each one of them talked about how you know sex education where they were systematically sexualized. So they were removed from the classroom. Their parents still the school system “I don't want my child to have sex education.” What's also interesting is when they did get sex education it was very generic. And at the same time some teachers or educators would come in and say “hey and on top of that somebody with cerebral palsy trying to be inclusive.” But what that did it was shined a big beacon on this individual with a disability and that made them feel very uncomfortable. What generically I found was the Individuals with Disabilities would like to have information on generally how sexuality is affected when you have a disability. But then getting additional information separate to the classroom that's pertaining to their own condition or illness or disability.

AMT: So you're saying well the parents sometimes ask for them to be excluded, why is that?

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Well I think a lot of times it's the old adage if you show candy to a baby they want to have candy sort of thing. I think Jessica's mother, Michelle she actually was wonderful. I mean that's very refreshing to see. But generally what you find is parents are very self-conscious and they feel that you know it's hard enough for their children to go through life with a disability, etc. And then this there's this other thing that you know if they're told about it they'll want to do it and they are excluded from that.

AMT :And so what problems arise from not having sex education?

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Well you know there's two areas. When you talk about disability you can talk about physical disability and intellectual or cognitive disability and the issues are so different. What I find with children with physical disabilities the big issue is they tend to self-limit. They tend to avoid sexuality and even though they want the information, they don't have the same experiences or opportunities that able bodied children how. For example if you think about where you learned about sex it might be you know fooling around in your basement with you know somebody who came over or you know at a party or whatever. Children with physical disabilities don't have that same opportunity so their understanding of sexuality is limited. Then you have the other side where you have children who have cognitive or intellectual disabilities. And on top of that a lot of times there's mental illness that goes along with the cognitive impairment and that makes it even more difficult. But in a lot of cases these children don't self-limit. So when they're curious or they have an urge they'll act out on it and suddenly what will happen is there is you know an uproar. The parents are upset or the teachers are upset and said “This child is doing something that's inappropriate, sexual inappropriate behavior”. So suddenly you there's all these programs that are put in place to control or limit the behavior. I remember one case where this one child was touching himself. He had I think autism and he was touching himself in class and the teachers and everybody were really upset. What they did was start to extinguish the behavior using a very behavioral approach. They act every time he touched himself they would get mad at him. They would stop him. They put tighter belts in his pants so he wouldn't be able to put his hands into his pants et cetera et cetera. And through constant watching and monitoring they stopped the behavior. But what's interesting is the same child start to have other behaviors come up. He was showing depressive signs, anxiety, aggressive behavior. He even punched a couple of other kids. And it was interesting because when I was brought in I was talking to the principal. And it just came up and I said “What would you rather have this child do, punch other children or touch himself?” And it seemed like there was almost more comfort with the child being aggressive to another child rather than touching themselves. So again this whole attitude about sexuality being something that's taboo, you shouldn't talk about it. And it's uncomfortable. It really limits what we can do with these children.

AMT: How was it resolved?

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Well again with this child I was called in and I wasn't called back then again. Let's just say that I am not sure what happened with this child. But another child that I worked with, an adolescent, he again had some very strong cognitive challenges as well as autism. And with this child what happened was he actually did some inappropriate behaviors for example he touched other girls in his class, a relative - a female relative, as well as he was going online stealing the laptop and going online and doing different things looking at porn et cetera. So what we did with this child is we put him actually on a masturbation schedule. Because what we looked at is what is appropriate sexual expression for him what would you allow him to express his sexuality. And there are certain things that you know, like what should a 14 year old be doing? And with him what we did was we put him on a masturbation schedule. So basically before he left for school he had to masturbate and when he got home he had to go to his room and masturbate. After that he could do whatever he wants. He also wanted to have a girlfriend but his functioning was not high enough to have a girlfriend. So what we did was we actually created sort of a fictitious girlfriend where he actually went online and he actually just typed and kept a journal about his encounters with this young lady or with his girlfriend and he had some safe people that he would share his stories with, the occupational therapist, the teacher's assistant et cetera. There are several people that he shared and they would review his journaling and you know give feedback on is this appropriate - Is this not. Like is it really appropriate to have sex with somebody when you're 14 and you've only met them for a couple weeks? And then those kinds of things. And then what we found with him is slowly and surely his journaling became more appropriate more in line with what we would see as normative behavior. There was also quite a lot of changes in terms of his inappropriate sexual behaviors. They stopped once we started on the schedule before and after school. It was amazing what are the difference in his behaviors.

AMT: In your work come. You also meet parents who help their disabled children get what they need. What kind of arrangements have you seen?

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Well there's lots of different arrangements. You see parents being open and upfront with sexuality and knowing that this is something that's within the child's - that could be part of the child's life or the adolescence life and they make changes. They actually are proactive about it and they don't just look at sexuality as a harm reduction approach perspective where you need to protect your child. You need to make sure that they don't you know getting a get pregnant or get an SDI or anything like that. But actually look at sexuality as something positive and something that could allow them to have an increased quality of life. I think of one example where we had this mom who had a daughter who had cerebral palsy and this daughter was about 16. Intellectually she was very bright but physically she required 24/7 care. She was very physically disabled but she was very interested in sex and wanted to have sex. But again opportunity was very limited. So what this mother did. She knew another mom who also had a son who was approximately the same age who had cerebral palsy and also was very physically challenged but intellectually was very with it. And basically what happened was the mums got the kids together and because of their physical limitations they actually had them in a hot tub.

AMT: How many parents would be willing to do that in your experience?

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Very few. I think, as Kaleigh was saying, things are changing. We are seeing some you know more open perspective on sexuality. But again when it comes to disability people are very guarded and it's very hard.

AMT: But it's interesting because what you're really talking about again there is communication and those mothers were in communication with their children. And so it might sound like a leap as you tell the story but it was a process.

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Oh it was.

AMT: And that's kind of where you're coming from, right, that that communication has to happen on some level so that people are seen in the fullness of what they have to offer.

SHANIFF ISMAIL: And you know one of the things that I'm finding, my initial work was all around physical disability, now I'm trying to focus in on more of the cognitive intellectual impairments and what I've found is the biggest issue is the whole issue of consent. If a child or an adolescent or an individual with a disability is found to not be able to give consent for sexual activity, then basically any sort of activity is considered assault or abuse. So how do you determine consent? It's usually around their basic understanding of sexuality like intercourse, babies, how babies are made, etc. but then also the context in which this activity occurs. So if someone says “well you only have sex with someone you're married with or so when you are in a relationship etc. etc.” then they have a pretty good understanding and then the final thing you want to look at is do they understand the consequences of sexual activities. Not only the negatives for example you get an SDI, be a victim of sexual assault or abuse or get pregnant, but also the positive aspects that if you have sex it might feel good. It might help you develop a bond with somebody all of those kinds of things.

AMT: And when we talk about pregnancy I mean how many health professionals offer young women with some kind of a disability birth control.

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Very few and even when it comes to physicians, you know, even though it's part of their responsibility, the first thing that comes across is again the capacity of the individual to understand the consequences of behaviors. So they're saying “well should I be giving birth control or not.” So they sort of wait for the parent or the guardian. But a lot of times these individuals have the capacity but they're not offered the choice.

AMT: How many years have you been working in this field?

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Oh probably about 20 years or more.

AMT: Do you see a change?

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Oh definitely I'm seeing a lot of changes. The first thing is we're seeing a lot more health care programs including sexuality as part of their curriculum that's for everybody. But then at the same time they are putting in you know as it relates to illness or disability, so that's helpful. I've actually been called in at the University of Manitoba, as well as University of British Columbia, to actually help with their sexuality programs. Interestingly I've been asked to go to Singapore to help develop their sexuality curriculum. So it is changing.

AMT: It's interesting because Andrew's got a podcast in one of the reasons why we're even talking about this today is because a young woman named Sarah called in and said this is missing in education so people are finding their voices.

SHANIFF ISMAIL: Most definitely.

AMT: Thanks for speaking with me.

SHANIFF ISMAIL: You're welcome.

AMT: That is Shaniff Ismail. He's a professor and associate chair in rehabilitation in the department of occupational therapy at the University of Alberta. He joined us from Edmonton. If you missed the first part of our discussion about sex ed and people with disabilities, it will be posted on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. You'll also be able to find it on the CBC Radio app and our podcast. And we're hoping to hear from you on this topic. Let us know your experiences by sending us an email from our website cbc.ca/thecurrent then click on a contact link. You can always get in touch on Facebook or Twitter @TheCurrentCBC.

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Ex-Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort surrenders to FBI

Guest: Callum Brochers

AMT: You are listening to The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM and online cbc.ca/thecurrent. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. As you've been hearing on the news this morning charges have been laid in the U.S. special counsel's probe into links between President Donald Trump's campaign and Russia. Paul Manafort, the former campaign chair for President Donald Trump, has been indicted on 12 counts including charges of conspiracy against the U.S., money laundering and other financial charges. They are not directly linked to Paul Manafort’s work on Donald Trump's presidential campaign. Paul Manafort’s for its former business associate Rick Gates has also been indicted. They each surrendered to federal authorities in Washington earlier today and will make a court appearance this afternoon Callum Borchers is a politics and media reporter for The Washington Post. He joins us from Washington. Hello.

CALLUM BORCHERS: Good morning.

AMT: What's the significance of these charges from what we know so far?

CALLUM BORCHERS: Well the significance so far is that it certainly casts a lot of doubt on the wisdom and judgment of the president and his advisers in bringing someone like Paul Manafort into the fold and fold and ultimately allowing him to run the entire campaign for a time in 2016. The charges today do not signal though is proof of coordination between the Trump campaign and rush to meddle in the presidential election. That is the missing piece right now. And so depending on how you look at it the president can sort of breathe a sigh of relief if this is the extent of what the investigators will find of the charges that we will see. Or this could be the tip of the iceberg and it could either be the beginning of more charges to come, or could perhaps be a point of leverage for Robert Mueller the special counsel to exert pressure on Paul Manafort perhaps to give up more information about a bigger fish, the bigger fish of course being the president of the United States.

AMT: So we just have to wait and let it play out a little bit more.

CALLUM BORCHERS: We do and I think the thing to keep an eye on in this will be slightly overshadowed today because of course metaphor it is the big name in all this. But in addition to the indictments handed down on Manafort it and his business associate, Rick Gates, you also have a guilty plea by a man named George Papadopoulos today and he's pleading guilty to making false statements to the FBI. And those false statements are actually more directly related to the investigation related to the campaign and Russia, then what we have with Manafort, made a quick review on Papadopoulos. He's not a household name, was not a leading figure within the campaign. He was sort of, as far as we understand, that a low level adviser. But we and others had reported about a month ago that during the campaign he had made attempts to set up meetings between then candidate Donald Trump and other campaign officials and Russian officials, to exchange essentially opposition research about Hillary Clinton. This would have been meetings akin to the one that we know did happen at Trump Tower in June of 2016 between Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, and Paul Manafort and a Kremlin connected Russian attorney. Now as far as we know the meetings that Papadopoulos tried to set up never came together. But what he's pleading guilty to today is misleading the FBI about the nature of his work and specifically he told the FBI back in January, that he had made contacts with certain Russian officials who claimed to have damaging information about Hillary Clinton, before he began work on the Trump campaign. Well it turns out those were false statements. What he is admitting now is that it was only after he began working for the campaign that those Russians all of a sudden wanted to provide information to him.

AMT: And he pleaded guilty actually a couple of weeks ago right, October 5^th?

CALLUM BORCHERS: Right. We're just seeing these now the indictments are unsealed today and we're learning about the guilty plea today as well.

AMT: So it gets more interesting. Now in all of this who is Rick Gates?

CALLUM BORCHERS: Rick Gates is a long time business partner of Paul Manafort and he is alleged to have helped Manafirt it with the transfer of money from overseas. So you know basically what Manafort it is accused of here is enriching himself with millions of dollars of payments that he received for work he did overseas, primarily in Ukraine as a political consultant, but he did not register in the United States as a political consultant for an overseas entity and in fact went to great lengths to mask that fact allegedly. And so what he's accused of doing is laundering that money but trying to bring it into the United States so that he could live a lavish lifestyle here in the U.S. Gates is accused of having helped Manafort to do that and of also moving some of his own money around as well.

AMT: So remind us when did we first start hearing about Paul Manafort’s link to Russia?

CALLUM BORCHERS: Well you can really go back to when he joined the campaign in 2016 because his work by that time for the Ukraine was known. And so at that point it was just sort of a “well what do you make of this?” This is a guy who had sort of been out of the game in U.S. politics for about a decade and so folks who were of course saying, you know, what's he been up to for the last 10 years and looking into his work overseas. And you know then things really sort of picked up over this summer of course. You had in August that pre-dawn raid of his Virginia house. It was this very dramatic scene painted in press reports of FBI agents, you know, knocking down his door and surprising him while he was still in bed because they were afraid that perhaps he was going to try to destroy evidence. And at that point they had begun to warn him that he would likely be facing an indictment. He has been expecting this for several months. And of course Robert Mueller impaneled a grand jury a couple of months ago. And so what we see today is sort of the culmination of something has been building for over a year now.

AMT: And to be clear so they're really talking about the money here and when he was lobbying U.S. government officials on behalf of Ukraine and the Ukrainian president at the time Viktor Yanukovych, right, and working with pro-Russian Ukrainian political parties back at the time when Russia was annexing Crimea.

CALLUM BORCHERS: That's exactly right. I mean the charge of conspiracy against the United States is a very serious sounding charge but it's sort of vague language. And of course in the context of this investigation of Russian election meddling and any possible collusion with the Trump campaign that terminology can sound as though what he's being charged with is some kind of conspiracy against the United States that's related to the campaign, and that's not actually what the charges are related to or at least not today.

AMT: But it sets up a link between him and all of that that information at the time between him and the pro-Russian political parties in Ukraine.

CALLUM BORCHERS: It does, so what we're seeing is sort of this building up kind of a circumstantial case and it also is reflective of a certain attitude within the Trump campaign. I mean again I would point back to that meeting that we know happened to Trump Tower in June of 201 in which John Trump Jr. by his own admission through e-mails that he has made public was very eager to collect information from a Russian national that he thought would be useful in the campaign against Hillary Clinton. Now the campaign has since sought to emphasize that the information they received wasn't terribly useful but that's not really the point. I mean part of the part of the point you're looking for is what's the attitude here. And so again we see this attitude today if Paul Manafort has these connections to pro-Russian folks in Ukraine. And if he was willing to allegedly commit the crimes that he's accused of today and then you also roll in the George Papadopoulos guilty plea, and you wonder why he was so determined to make false statements to the FBI. What was so damaging about the truth? It all sort of continues to make I think any keen observer wonder will you know what else might be going on here. And what other kind of coordination between the Trump campaign and Russia might have been going on. But as it stands right now those still remain questions and not firmly answered.

AMT: okay well now and The President has been tweeting saying “sorry but this is years ago before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But why aren't crooked Hillary and the Dems the focus?????” And then there's five question marks after that. And then another tweet, also there is in capital letters “NO COLLUSION.” You watch media and politics and that intersection where do you expect President Trump to go with this story on social media?

CALLUM BORCHERS: Yes. So two things stand out to me in that message; So number one you see this sort of effort to distance himself in his campaign from Paul Manafort. You can think back to when Sean Spicer was still the White House press secretary at one point he claimed to reporters that Paul Manafort played a very limited role in the campaign for a very limited period of time, which of course was laughable because he had run the entire campaign for a period. But this is part of the White House effort to say you know he uses anything he bad he did was before he was part of our team and he wasn't really all that important anyway. So that's point number one. And the second point there is as the president says well “why aren't Democrats and to Hillary Clinton the focus?” What he's referring to is sort of a new investigation launched by two subcommittees in Congress of a deal struck in 2010 under the Obama administration and that was a deal that allowed Russia's atomic energy agency to buy a majority stake in a in a uranium mining firm with a substantial interest in the American West, and what a publication here in the Hill reported last week was that at the time that deal was approved the FBI had an open probe into illegal business dealings by Russia. And the sort of open question is why was the deal approved, if the FBI had this investigation ongoing. Now as far as we know the decision makers on that deal who included Hillary Clinton did not know about the FBI probe and in fact what Republicans in Congress who were leading that investigation seemed to be focused on is where was that communication breakdown? Why didn't people in Congress - why didn't the nine government agency heads who had to sign off on the deal all of whom did? Why didn't they know about this FBI probe? Those are fair questions. But it does not signal as the president and some of their allies are trying to say a sort of quid pro quo. You know their allegation is that Russia essentially bought Hillary Clinton's approval vote on that deal by donating money to her family's foundation. There just isn't evidence of that. But this is what the president is going to try to do. He's going to try and set that up as the real Russia story.

AMT: So again it continues. Callum Borchers thanks very much for giving us some perspective on all of this. Lots going on in Washington today.

CALLUM BORCHERS: There certainly is. Glad to be with you.

AMT: Bye bye. That is Callum Borchers. He's a politics and media reporter for The Washington Post and he joined us from Washington D.C.. Well that's our program for today stay with Radio One for Q. Tom Power speaks with actor Dennis O'Hare. Dennis O'Hare portrays Edgar Allen Poe in a new PBS documentary. Remember you can always take the current with you to go on the CBC Radio app free from the App Store and Google Play. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Monday October 30, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

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