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The AIH Transcript for October 24, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

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JD: Tonight:

CO: Face value. Quebec's Justice Minister would like to apologize for the lack of clarity around the province's ban on face-covering: it's not about targeting Muslim women, she says — it's about improving communication and safety.

JD: One picture tells a thousand stories. A photo of a starving infant gives the world a shocking glimpse of what's happening in the Ghouta region of Syria — where, a doctor says, more than a thousand children are suffering from serious malnutrition.

CO: It's billed as a self-help group. But according to a New York Times investigation, and our guest, a secret organization called NXIVM gave its members something far less constructive, and far more disturbing.

JD: Something in the air. An Edmonton man with a nut allergy dies after inhaling particles from sandblasting, which contained traces of walnut shells. Now, his family is demanding new warning labels for industrial products.

CO: Chapter and universe. You might think a doctoral thesis about the origins of the cosmos would be a crashing bore, but when that thesis is by Stephen Hawking, and it was offered for free online, it wound up crashing the website.

JD: And...anti-web feet. If you go around stomping on spiders, it's because arachnophobia is built in to us — and to reach this conclusion, all scientists had to do was show spiders to each experimental subject: a baby.

JD: "As It Happens", the Tuesday edition. Radio that assumes baby was not on board.

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Part 1: Quebec Justice Minister, NXIVM case, arachnophobia study

Quebec Justice Minister

Guest: Stephanie Vallee

JD: Stephanie Vallee apologized for all the confusion this morning. The Quebec Justice Minister was at a press conference in Quebec City, where she released the rules governing her new face-covering law. Bill 62 has been called a burka ban, because it prohibits people from covering their faces when they're either giving or receiving a public service. Minister Vallee, however, insisted once again this morning that the law is not meant to target the small number of Muslim women who believe their religion requires them to wear the veil. We reached Justice Minister Stephanie Vallee in Quebec City.

CO: Minister Vallee, how many women wear the face veil in Quebec?

STEPHANIE VALLEE: We don't have precise number. It's around a hundred, but Bill 62 is definitely not about those 100 persons.

CO: Well, what's the bill about?

SV: Well, the bill is, first of all, in fact that is implying the adherents to state religious neutrality. It also provides a framework for requests for accommodation on religious ground in Quebec. And it provides that uncovered face is a requirement for personal members of a public body that works in a function, and also a person who requests a service from a member of a body also have to have their face uncovered while the service is being provided.

CO: But who besides women — these 100 women — we've heard it's more like 12. Who is it that you are aiming this bill at, besides the women who cover their faces for religious reasons? In fact, the bill is called religious neutrality law, so it is aimed at people who cover their faces for religious reasons, is it not?

SV: It's a bill that's aiming to address living together in harmony. In Quebec, we've had debates around religious neutrality of states, secularism, the general treatment of accommodation requests that have been presented. We've had these discussions for over 10 years over here at the National Assembly, trying to give a response to the general preoccupation of the population with regards to these issues.

CO: Why is it only pertaining to covering the face? Why doesn't this involve turbans? Why doesn't this involve crucifixes? Why doesn't this involve nuns habits or kippah? Why only the face cover?

SV: The importance of having the face uncovered while public services are being rendered is under a reason for the quality of the communication between the public servant and the beneficiary of the service. And also, to make sure that identification is being verified, and some security reasons. In a society where everything is around human relation and human interaction, those three criteria are very important. And throughout the discussions on the bill we have had many requests from the opposition asking us to go further not to permit accommodation requests, which would be totally disrespectful of the Charters. We didn't go there, but there are reasons in a society — there are grounds — that justify the need for clear communication between individuals for identification purpose and security purpose. And this is really what the bill is all about.

CO: Minister, I want to play a tape clip from a young woman who was recorded today by the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE SPEAKER: I went to one day with my friend and her kids to the mall, and we entered a store and she didn't talk to me. She was talking to her another client and she said to him I'm not going to serve a woman that is wearing a veil. And this is illegal in Canada not to serve someone because it's not public service, you know? And I think that she had the courage to tell me this because of the law — and because it will influence people to treat us differently in every aspect of life.

CO: All right, this woman says it's illegal. You know that's true, you’re the justice minister. But you can appreciate that in an environment where you have Muslims facing far more hate crimes — exponentially more than before. You have had a shooting with six people dead in a mosque. That in this environment, are you're not creating the atmosphere that this woman has just described? Are you not putting these women at risk?

SV: I will not accept the comment that we are putting people at risk. This bill is respectful of people's rights, it's respectful of Charters and it calls for better living together rules that have never been set before. And the requirement to have one's face uncovered is not to ban the wearing of a religious symbol. It's not to dictate how a citizen — a woman, a man — should dress. It's the requirement that the faith be uncovered while someone is giving or receiving a public service.

CO: OK, but it is religious neutrality at the root of it. And so when the Muslim community is saying to you that your bill is giving license to discrimination, anti-Muslim sentiment, Islamophobia for reasons that is going to affect a handful of women looking for a handful of services. Why are you doing this if it not for the reason you just said that it is immensely popular?

SV: It's not a question of having an immensely popular. It's a question of responding to a social society debate that has been taking place in Quebec over the past 10 years. It is not about giving grounds for act of intolerance. And I must tell you, throughout the work that preceded the adoption of the bill I was criticized by the opposition for making plays for accommodation. And in that bill, you’ll find references to the right of religion, to the right of religious beliefs and to the right to display those religious beliefs in the public environment. This is not an act about restricting religious beliefs and religious symbols in the public sector — not at all.

CO: Some people want you to go further. This is as far as you're going to go. I will put it to you that this law appears to be politically-motivated. What do you say to that?

SV: It's not politically-motivated. Any government here in Quebec would have had to table a bill about these very delicate issues of living together. And I understand that from a Toronto point of view, you may not have been as much into these discussions. I understand, but on the other side, you have to understand that this discussion has been ongoing for so many years, and it was a duty to have a response to this discussion.

CO: Well Minister, I have to say there are a lot of women who wear the veil in this city — in Toronto — and other cities across Canada, and have not created this issue. But you say this is a Quebec one and we’ll respect that.

SV: But one thing that I have to be precise it has nothing to do with wearing the veil. It's not about wearing the veil. It's about having clear grounds for, hopefully, being able to have other discussion and turning the page on these discussions that have been wrenching for Quebec society. And that has not contributed on the contrary to helping those with their religious beliefs. We think that religious beliefs should not be taken out of the public sphere.

CO: All right, we’ll leave it there. Minister Vallee, thank you very much for giving us your time today.

SV: It was a pleasure. Have a good evening.

CO: You too.

JD: Stephanie Vallee is Quebec’s Justice Minister. We reached her in Quebec City.

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NXIVM case

Guest: Sarah Edmondson

JD: It advertises itself as a business that promotes motivation and self-improvement. But according to former members of the group NXIVM, those claims go far beyond false advertising. A recent New York Times investigation has revealed damning allegations against NXIVM and its founder, Keith Raniere. In that report, several women claimed that they were branded — literally burned — and required to hand over private information about themselves. Now, NXIVM is under review by officials in New York State. Sarah Edmundson is a former member of NXIVM who helped start a chapter in Vancouver. And that is where we reached her.

CO: Ms. Edmondson, there is a picture — I believe it's your torso — with this tattoo. What can you tell us about what that is?

SARAH EDMUNDSON: The tattoo is actually a brand that was made in a private home in Clifton Park, New York on March 9^th, by a group of women who I was told we're going to be giving me a small tattoo, the size of a dime — and as a part of an initiation into a secret society for women.

CO: But it’s not a small tattoo, is it?

SE: No.

CO: The picture I've seen in the New York Times it's large and it looks welted — it looks very painful. Can you tell us what does it represent, and what did they do in order to make that on you?

SE: It's quite a long story to explain how I got to that point, and I can get to that if you wish. But in terms of the moment of the brand, like I said, I was told I was going to get a dime-sized tattoo. The night of, once my blindfold was removed and I stood naked with four other women, they used a cauterizing iron and the symbol was drawn on one line at a time. For me, I did it in about 20-25 minutes. Other women took longer, like 40-45 minutes depending on how much they moved, squirmed or squealed.

CO: OK, let's go back to before that night when you found yourself blindfolded, naked and about to be cauterized in this way. When did you first get involved with this group known as NXIVM?

SE: I got involved in 2005, after meeting a director Mark Vicente, who made the film “What the Bleep Do We Know!?” And I told them that I liked his film. He said if you like my film, you'll like this program and I just took. And he referred me to Executive Success Programs. And a few weeks later, I took the program and very much enjoyed it.

CO: What did you like about it?

SE: I liked that I had the opportunity to dive into my psyche. And I had the opportunity to work through quote/unquote: “issues that I had wanted to in my life.” And this seemed like a fast-track to that type of growth I was seeking.

CO: So how deeply involved did you become then over the years with NXIVM?

SE: I became more and more involved as I decided to continue my growth path. It was encouraged to recruit and enroll people. And I ended up bringing the curriculum back to Vancouver, and was highly encouraged to start a center there, which I did. And by the time I left in June, I was what's known as a “green sash”, it's like a martial-arts-type-of-system we used in ESP. So I was definitely in the upper ranks, although not part of the inner circle.

CO: And when did you come to meet this woman who I understand is quite influential in your life, Lauren Saltzman?

SE: I met Lauren Saltzman when I joined in 2005. And over the years, every time I visited Albany for training, we became closer and closer. To the point where in 2013, when my husband and I got married, I asked her to be my maid of honour and she actually married us. And later became the godmother to our son.

CO: When did red flags start entering into your sight?

SE: To be honest, from day one there's been red flags. But one of the very manipulative, in my opinion, things that Executive Success Programs does is it tells you right from the beginning if you fee uncomfortable with something it means that you're doing it right — so I never really addressed those things, and that's 100 per cent my responsibility looking back. Mainly with the red flag as soon as Lauren started talking to me about DOS…

CO: Which is what?

SE: DOS is “Dominant Over Submissive”, I was only told the name once and I believe that is what it's called. But I do know it's called DOS. And this group Lauren invited me to in January. But before she invited me to it, she asked me to provide her with collateral that she would keep forever to ensure my secrecy around the group.

CO: So now we're swept to January of this year — of 2017.

SE: Yes.

CO: So by this point, you've been involved one way or another with NXIVM for 12 years.

SE: For 12 years.

CO: DOS was this something that you believed to be part of NXIVM? Or was this something that you were getting into quite separately?

SE: When Lauren pitched it to me, she told me it was nothing to do with NXIVM. She told me it was a secret society of women that were banding together as a force for good.

CO: Now, you mentioned the word collateral. What are the collaterals? What are the things you told them in order to I guess create this bond?

SE: Collaterals or something in the last three or four years an Executive Success Programs that became quite common. That people would put collateral down towards their commitments. So when Lauren asked me for collateral, it wasn't that obscure. It was sort of normalized already. So my collateral that she asked me to give, initially, when she asked me I said like what? And she very flippantly said I don't know like a nude photo or you know a secret that you'd never want anyone to know. I passed on the nude photo. Secondly, I said I don't really have any secrets. And she said well, you can make something up. And someone who has known me for a long time, she knows what things have happened in my past that I may or may not want people to know. And she encouraged me to write it down on a piece of paper, which I did. She took a photo and sent it to what I understand now to be her master, who got back to us and said it wasn't damaging enough and asked me to redo it.

CO: What you're describing over these years is, obviously, deeply disturbing and uncomfortable. But did it really only turn into something that you now want to tell the world in this last stretch?

SE: Yes. You know, frankly, over the past 12 years, there's been all sorts of media. If you do any research on NXIVM or Executive Success, there's very damaging things said about it over the years. We were also taught very strictly that there is a smear campaign happening against us. But when you have the firsthand experience such as I did with the branding and then finding out three weeks later that the symbol was not in fact the four elements. It was a combination of Keith Raniere and Alison Mac's initials.

CO: And when you say Keith Raniere, he is the founder of NXIVM, right?

SE: He's the founder of NXIVM. He's the founder of all the companies. And, frankly, there's nothing that happens within the NXIVM bubble that happens, in my experience, without his approval or him signing off.

CO: Now, NXIVM has issued a statement saying that the media outlet — I believe referring to the New York Times — has unfounded and incorrectly linked NXIVM Corporation to some other social group. They say the allegations in this story are built upon sources — some of which are under criminal investigation, or already indicted — who acted as a coordinated group. The story might be a criminal product of criminal minds who are hurting the victims in this story. What do you say to that?

SE: I say this is typical NXIVM strategy.

CO: Just briefly to conclude, do you know if police in any other jurisdictions where NXIVM is operating are investigating the organization for some of the things you've said?

SE: From my understanding, the New York Times article put pressure on local enforcement. I understand that from their point of view, the entire thing looks consensual and this will be very challenging to prove in a court of law. But mind control and, quote, “brainwashing” and things like that are now starting to be more understood in the court of law and will probably affect further cases as we go forward.

CO: We will leave it there. Ms. Edmondson, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SE: Thank you for taking the time. I hope this alerts people to organizations like this.

JD: That was Sarah Edmundson, a former member of NXIVM. We reached her in Vancouver. And Vancouver Police do tell CBC that they have received a complaint against Sarah Edmundson. That complaint is currently being investigated by their financial crimes unit. Police would not release more information, to avoid jeopardizing their ongoing investigation. Ms. Edmundson though says that she has not met with police yet. She called the complaint a bullying tactic brought on by people linked to NXIVM.

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Arachnophobia study

Guest: Stefanie Hoehl

JD: If you are afraid of spiders, the 1990 horror classic “Arachnophobia” is probably not a personal favourite. Also, you likely were not a fan of the 1977 iconic movie “Kingdom of the Spiders”, starring William Shatner as the tough-as-nails veterinarian. Now, obviously, watching spiders kill unsuspecting victims of a small town does not help with your fear of spiders. But even if you saw those movies at an impressionable age, they did not create that fear. It turns out that our discomfort with hairy eight-legged creatures may be hardwired. Researchers in Germany have discovered that a fear of spiders and snakes may have genetic links. And they did it by doing something a little… mean. Stefanie Hoehl was the lead researcher on the study. We reached in Vienna.

CO: Professor Hoehl, why did you want to scare babies?

STEFANIE HOEHL: Excellent question. Well, we've known for some time that many people are actually afraid of spiders and snakes. And there's really no good reason for it nowadays in western societies. These animals rarely really pose a threat to us. So many people have wondered about this. And even in the 70s, there have been theories that actually there's an evolutionary background for these fears. However, the problem is working with adults we really cannot tell apart whether something is really innate. Whether there's some evolutionary mechanism going on, or whether it's something that people have learned or that is cultural.

CO: So babies become a better a better guinea pig for you?

SH: Yeah, I wouldn't call them guinea pigs, but this is one of the reasons why it's really important and really interesting to work with infants because they haven't had so many learning experiences. And cultural background doesn't place so much of a role there.

CO: So the theory is that the fear of spiders or snakes or other creepy crawly things is something that’s learned. That your parents react — your mother reacts with fear — and so the baby learns this. And so you wanted to find out if that was true or not, or do they actually have some inherent fear of the of these things?

SH: Yes, exactly. So what we found is a stress response to pictures of spiders and snakes in six-month-old infants. And this is actually before they have a lot of social learning opportunities. We know they don't move around a lot. They are not able to locomote. And only in the second part of the of the first year after birth, they get a lot of negative emotion expressions from their parents because they move around more and they are more in danger more often. So testing them at six months before this happens. And our reasoning was that this is where we get a really good chance to look at mechanisms that are perhaps innate.

CO: So how did you test it? I mean did you put spiders and snakes into their nurseries and see how they respond?

SH: No, no, no we tested them in the lab at Uppsala University in Sweden. And in this lab, we have an eye tracker. And this is the machine that tells us exactly where the baby is looking on the screen, and at the same time, it tells us how big the pupil is. How much the pupils dilated. And this is a very interesting measurement for us because it's a very good indicator of activation of our genetic system in the brain and in the brain stem, which is part of the stress response.

CO: How do you know that they just weren't responding to any image coming up on the screen that fascinated them or maybe stressed them a bit?

SH: So in these studies, it's really important to have very good control images that are matched in terms of colour, size and, of course, in terms of luminance because a pupil also reacts to light differences. For the spiders we had flower images. And for the snakes we had fish. And so we compared infant pupil responses to these evolutionary threatening images and compared these to the control images.

CO: And what did you find?

SH: We found that infants responded, specifically to pictures of spiders and snakes, with increased pupil dilatation. So this is a response that's not just in response to any kind of image, and it's certainly not a response to luminance because this was perfectly matched across the conditions.

CO: Why do you think spiders and snakes? I mean I guess you haven't tested those things, but babies — kids — love to look at pictures of lions and tigers and bears and other things that might create you’d think a fight-or-flight trigger in a human if it is something they've inherited over time.

SH: Actually, that's a very good question because it wouldn't make so much more sense to be you know inherently afraid of lions or tigers. However, what's really interesting about spiders and snakes is that they have been posing a threat to our ancestors for an immensely long time. So spiders and snakes they developed venomous bites 40 to 60 million years ago. This is a really long, long time of evolution. And we think that this enabled primates — not only humans, but other primates as well — to develop mechanisms that enable us to detect these animals very quickly, to respond to them, to put our body into fight-or-flight mode and this may really pose an advantage or it has an advantage. Nowadays, it really doesn't make much sense. As I said, there are not so many animals — spiders, or snakes — that are dangerous to humans nowadays in most parts of the world where humans live.

CO: Have you ruled out the possibility that this is something kids are inheriting from anxious parents or fearful parents?

SH: It's not very likely that they have picked it up at this very early age because, as I said, this social learning it really starts in around seven-eight months, when they get a lot of different kinds of emotional expressions. Prior to six months, most of the expressions that they get from healthy parents is just positive effect. But what we think what happens is a six-month-old infant sees a spider, or maybe nine-month-old infant sees a spider, gets a stress response. If this infant then sees their parents react with panic or anxiety to the same animal, the infant will pick that up very quickly and very quickly associate the animal with fear. And this might even be enhanced if there's genetic predisposition to anxious temperament, which we know is also something that babies can inherit from their parents.

CO: Well, I think twice before I read “Itsy Bitsy Spider” to a six-month-old, or maybe I’ll just carefully watch their eyes to see how they respond. Professor Hoehl, it’s good to talk to you. Thank you.

SH: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye.

SH: Bye.

JD: Stefanie Hoehl is a professor of developmental psychology at the University of Vienna.

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Part 2: Syria doctor, nut allergy death

Syria doctor

Guest: Hamza Hassan

JD: The image is deeply, deeply disturbing. Earlier this week, Agence France Press published a photograph of a baby girl in the Ghouta region of Syria. She is emaciated, her cheeks are hollow, her ribs are protruding. Sahar died not long after, from severe malnutrition. She was only 34-days-old. Sahar was just one of many children suffering in the region. UNICEF estimates more than a thousand children there are malnourished. Dr. Hamza Hassan is a doctor in the area. We reached him in Erbin, Syria.

CO: Dr. Hamza, I know you have so many children who are suffering from all kinds of problems. But this picture of the little girl is very disturbing. Can you tell us about Sahar?

HAMZA HASSAN: She was suffering from severe malnutrition. Her mother wasn't able to breast feed her because the mother was suffering from malnutrition.

CO: So the mother was not getting enough to eat in order to provide milk for Sahar? And there was nothing to feed Sahar. 34-days-old and she died.

HH: Yes. Before she died, about one week ago, she visited the malnutrition centre in Ghouta, and they began to treat her. But in a few days, she died.

CO: And you are treating so many children with these problems of malnutrition. What are you seeing in East Ghouta?

HH: I see an increase of the number of children suffering from malnutrition. In the last month, we have about 1000 children in East Ghouta suffering from severe malnutrition. The numbers are increasing now because of shortage of foods in the markets of Ghouta, so the problems will increase.

CO: For people who don't know what's going on, you're very close to Damascus — the capital of Syria — and this region — East Ghouta — is under siege, is it not? The Syrian regime has cut off the outside world from Ghouta, is that what's going on?

HH: Yes. The regime in Damascus made a stage around Ghouta for four years. In the last four months, they cut off all traffic roads to Ghouta, so all food, all medication, all medical supplies are decreased.

CO: So this siege has been going on since 2013. And you have had for the past four or five months, a complete siege. What is getting in? Are there any? Because before, you had at least some black market food and some things were getting to people. What can people actually get in the way of food now in East Ghouta?

HH: In East Ghouta, most people use and in eat the vegetarian crops, which is cultivated in small farms in Ghouta. And we are now in the end of the summer and in the beginning of winter, which is when these crops go away.

CO: You have some vegetables from these crops that people are growing in small patches. But do you have rice? Do you have flour? Do you have sugar? Do you have oil? Anything?

HH: No, no, no, the prices of these foods are very high in Ghouta. Sugar is 30 times the price in Ghouta as it is in Damascus.

CO: And we know that — we were told — that there was a deal that was made by Russia and Turkey to reduce the violence in Syria, to allow for these zones like East Ghouta to get assistance. That's not happening then?

HH: I want to say since the de-escalation zone agreements were signed, the siege has intensified.

CO: It's getting worse?

HH: Unfortunately, yes.

CO: There are those who are working there — people who are trying to help — who are calling this a crime — that this is criminal that there is no access to East Guta and to supply these children and these people with food. Would you say that?

HH: Yes, yes. There is a tragedy in Ghouta.

CO: The pictures we're seeing now of children who are being treated by you and other doctors. These are children that are very thin, they look very sick, their faces look like they are old people and the food is just in Damascus — it's close by. This is not an area where there is no food. What would it take in order to get these children eating again?

HH: The humanitarian roads must open. Unfortunately, Ghouta’s people didn’t see you the U.N. people in Ghouta.

CO: So no U.N. people are inside? You don’t see United Nations?

HH: I asked them to enter to Ghouta and see the children dying.

CO: And have you heard any response to your request that United Nations comes and bears witness to children dying?

HH: I didn't hear any response.

CO: Dr. Hamza, I know you are not the doctor who treated Sahar. That was another doctor, but I know you have so many other children like that. You have family as well in the area; you are trying to take care of them. What is this like for you personally?

HH: I feel afraid about my family and my children. I live in Erbin, my daughter is four, my son is about one, I want safety for them.

CO: Dr. Hamza, I admire your courage. I know it's very difficult for you and the other doctors to be doing this work. And thank you for it. I hope that some food arrives soon. Thank you.

HH: Thank you very much.

JD: We reached Dr. Hamza Hassan in Erbin, Syria. For more on the story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Somber]

Bob Corker

JD: Tweets were sent. Insults were hurled. And that was before lunch. Today, more nasty words were exchanged in the ongoing feud between the U.S. President and Republican Senator Bob Corker — or as Mr. Trump likes to call him, “Liddle Bob Corker” — in a series of tweets this morning, the president criticized the senator. And in a series of television interviews, the senator criticized the president. Here is part of what Senator Corker told CNN.

SOUNDCLIP

BOB CORKER: Unfortunately, I think world leaders are very aware that much of what he says is untrue. Certainly, people here are because these things are provably untrue. I mean they're just factually incorrect. And people know the difference, so I don't know why lowers himself to such a low, low standard and debases our country in the way that he does? But he does. You know, like I don't like responding. You know, you can let him go unanswered, but It's just not me. We don't do tweets like that. We've responded twice to, again, untruth. But you know it's unfortunate that our nation finds itself in this place.

MALE REPORTER: Is the president of the United States a liar?

BC: The president has great difficulty with the truth on many issues.

MALE REPORTER: Do you regret supporting him in the election?

BC: Let's just put it this way: I would not do that again.

MALE REPORTER: You wouldn't support him again?

BC: No way. I think that he's proven himself unable to rise to the occasion. And I think many of us, me included, have you know tried… I've intervened. I've been with him on multiple occasions to try to create some kind of aspirational approach, if you will, to the way that he conducts himself. But I don't think that that's possible. And he's obviously not going to rise to the occasion as president.

MALE REPORTER: Do you think is a role model to children in the United States?

BC: No.

MALE REPORTER: You don't?

BC: No, absolutely not.

JD: Republican Senator Bob Corker speaking with CNN today, before he attended a lunch meeting with President Trump, and other Republican senators. Now, some speculated that that event would be awkward. And Senator Thom Tillis was also prepared for it to be entertaining. Beforehand, he tweeted “ready for lunch”, along with a photograph of him picking up some popcorn. But it seems the meeting was all business. Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said they discussed budgets and taxes. And apparently, there was no further interaction between the president and Senator Corker. Mr. Corker is not running for re-election next year. And now, we have learned that Republican Senator Jeff Flake will not run either. This afternoon, Senator Flake, another vocal critic of President Trump, made that announcement. Here's part of what he had to say on the Senate floor.

SOUNDCLIP

JEFF FLAKE: There are times when we must risk our careers in favour of our principles. Now is such a time. It must also be said that I rise today with no small measure of regret. Regret because of the state of our disunion. Regret because of the disrepair and destructiveness of our politics. Regret because of the indecency of our discourse. Regret because of the coarseness of our leadership. Regret for the compromise of our moral authority. And by our, I mean all of our complicity in this alarming and dangerous state of affairs. It is time for our complicity in our accommodation of the unacceptable to end.

JD: Republican Senator Jeff Flake speaking today, following the news that he would not be seeking re-election next year. When asked about Senator Flake's announcement at today's press briefing, White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders told a reporter, quote, “I think that based on previous statements and certainly based on the lack of support that he has from the people of Arizona, it's probably a good move.” Unquote.

[Music: Indie rock]

Nut allergy death

Guest: Shari Reklow

JD: Because of his deadly walnut allergy, Justin Matthews was always very cautious about ordering food. But the Edmonton man did not expect he would suffer an anaphylaxis shock at work, nowhere near a kitchen. Earlier this month, Mr. Matthews was at a work site near some sandblasting. The product used for the sandblasting contained walnut shells. And when the 33-year-old man inhaled it, he suffered an allergic reaction and he died a few days later in hospital. Now, his family is asking whether his death could not have been prevented? Sherry Reklow is his sister. We reached her in Sherwood Park, Alberta.

CO: Shari, first of all, I'm sorry to learn about the death of your young brother, Justin.

SHARI REKLOW: Thank you. It’s been difficult.

CO: I know it's been some weeks now. How is your family coping with what was such a sudden loss?

SR: I think maybe it's starting to actually hit us. It was a tough week in the hospital. And then having to make the funeral arrangements, I think everybody was too busy to think and now, we have time to think. And it's really kind of hitting home.

CO: And he was 33-years-old?

SR: Yes.

CO: I'm so sorry. Can you tell us what happened on that day — on October 2^nd — what was he doing? Would job was he on.

SR: So he worked for a company that set up air quality monitors if they're doing construction, renovations, things like that. There's a city of Edmonton project that they were assisting on. They were blasting lead paint off of a brick wall, as far as I understand. Outside of the front door, they had the hopper that they were putting in the walnut shell blasting material, so it would be crushed to be used in the sandblasting process. He walked in and then he told his boss you know I can't breathe. And so he left. He went outside and was trying to catch his breath. Then, they realized what had happened I guess.

CO: At this point, he was in anaphylactic shock?

SR: Well yeah. Yeah, he would have been in anaphylactic shock. And so then right away they called 911. And then fire trucks showed up and tried to give him oxygen and performed CPR, because by then, I believe he went into cardiac arrest from the anaphylaxis. And then the ambulance showed up and they tried to stabilize.

CO: Did no one tell him? There were no warning signs, no indications that they were using these crushed walnut shells and blasting that into the facility? Were there no signs? There were no warnings about this?

SR: Not to my understanding.

CO: Because he would have heeded something like that, right? He knew he had a nut allergy?

SR: He's had a nut allergy since he was like a little toddler. He was the last of four kids, and my two younger sisters also have a nut allergy. So my mom knew to watch for it. He knew that since he was a little kid.

CO: Was your brother carrying an EpiPen with him?

SR: I don't believe he was. I mean I can only guess as to why not? But, generally speaking, he was very careful about what he ate. If he went to a restaurant, there was a big, long disclaimer before he would put in an order because you know I'm allergic to nuts. I'm allergic to peanuts. I'm allergic to all these nuts. Like let's just be very clear about this. As far as we were concerned, he had it under control.

CO: But he wouldn't assume — as most people, I wouldn't —that sandblasting… you think that involves blasting sand, you don’t think it's going to be walnut shells.

SR: When I hear sandblasting, I think sand. And I have to assume that he would have thought the same way. They were sandblasting with walnut shells. Like what is that? I don't know if it's common or not, but nobody I've talked to has heard of it. It's a big surprise.

CO: Why don’t you think that the first responders…. did they not have an EpiPen that they could have given him?

SR: As I understand, first responders in Alberta do not carry EpiPens. I have no idea why that is? And when you have an anaphylactic reaction, time is of the essence. Even if it is less than five minutes, that's too long. You need that EpiPen. You need some epinephrine right away.

CO: There's now an occupational health and safety investigation into your brother's death. What are you hoping to learn from that?

SR: As far as I can see right now, using allergens like in a commercial or industrial application is not regulated. I'm hoping that they find that they should be. If you want to sandblast with walnut shells, fine. But it needs to be treated as a regulated substance. So there needs to be warnings. There needs to be signs.

CO: My understanding is that you can get this sandblasting product at Canadian Tire. Do you know if there's any warning that it may contain walnut shells?

SR: It's all over. I could go out and buy four bags of it from four different stores today, without having to look very hard.

CO: How are you going to remember your brother, Justin?

SR: He was just my little brother. I'm going to remember him every time I want to tell him something because you know how siblings are; you know you see something and think like ha, he’d think that's funny. And, of course, now he's not here to tell anymore. My daughter is going to think of him every time she wants cookies because he used to make cookies with her. Like, I don't even know. This is just devastating.

CO: Is your hope that we learn something from this? That something changes because of what happened to Justin?

SR: I'm hoping that people start to take allergies more seriously. Just because you're allergic to a food that using it any kind of application, not just putting it in your mouth, puts you at risk. Nowadays, they're using different substances in all kinds of other applications. You can find walnut shells in tires because apparently, there’s better grip on ice. So are there any rules for that? People need to know what things are made of. But if you don't even know — if it's not even listed — if there are no rules about how to disclose this information then how is anyone with allergies supposed to make a calculated decision? You can't because you can find this stuff everywhere.

CO: Well, you raise some very important issues. I think a lot of people would agree with you are not being looked at enough. And again, Shari, I'm so sorry about your brother.

SR: Thank you.

CO: Thank you for speaking with us.

SR: You're welcome.

JD: Shari Reklow is the older sister of Justin Matthews, who died this month after suffering anaphylactic shock at a work site, because crews were sandblasting with walnut shells. We reached Ms. Reklow in Sherwood Park, Alberta.

[Music: Somber]

Pumpkin promo

JD: Every year around this time, a video resurfaces. One that is chilling and ridiculous simultaneously. A video of a man in a black leotard dancing to the “Ghostbusters” theme, with a pumpkin strapped to his face. Tomorrow, we will air Carol Off’s conversation with the dancing Pumpkin Man — who, it seems, is not a human-gourd hybrid, but a comedian from Omaha named Matt Geiler. Here's part of that conversation, in which it does not sound like Mr. Geiler is speaking through a pumpkin.

SOUNDCLIP

MATT GEILER: I am joyously gyrating in a black unitard with a pumpkin on my face, in a manic celebration of the spirit of Halloween.

CO: You ran out and put on a black unitard and a pumpkin head?

MG: Right. I said to my producer, I said why don't you throw up like a like a graveyard onto the green screen? I'm just going to dance for like four minutes and then we can just put that into the block right before weather and it will eat up some time.

CO: But you were the anchor of the news?

MG: Right.

CO: Did anyone consider this inappropriate?

MG: You know, there was not a lot of oversight at the station. We were kind of left to our own devices, which was just kind of inexplicable.

JD: An excerpt from Carol's conversation with the dancing Pumpkin Man. The full interview will be broadcast tomorrow on As It Happens.

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Part 3: Hawking PhD, Chow Quen Lee obit

Carol Governor General event

JD: It takes a fair amount to make Carol Off nervous. I can tell you that — and I know that — because I have tried. But what took place last night did the trick. You don't have to take my word for it, take hers, I'll quote her, quote, “I was in a protein sweat, working up to this.” And that was Carol, just before she welcomed the five authors shortlisted for the 2017 Governor General's Literary Awards for English Language Fiction to the stage at Toronto's Harbourfront Centre. She was hosting a discussion with them, held by the International Festival of Authors. And, as she rightly added, quote, “The Governor General's Awards are a big deal.” This year's shortlist and novels are as follows: “We'll All Be Burnt In Our Beds Some Night”, by Joel Thomas Hynes; “The Water Beetles”, by Michael Kaan; “All the Beloved Ghosts”, by Allison MacLeod; “Uncertain Weights and Measures”, by Jocelyn Parr; and “Lost in September” by Kathleen Winter. Now, as you might well imagine, plenty of interesting insight into each of these novels and the process of writing them ensued over the course of the evening. And Carol concluded the event by asking each author if they maintained a relationship with their characters after the writing was complete — somewhat like a parent watching their child leaving the house. Here's what Joel Thomas Hynes had to say about his protagonist, Johnny Keough — the rough-and-tumble Newfoundlander down on his luck, who embarks on a frenzied mission across Canada, to scatter his girlfriend's ashes on Vancouver's Jericho beach.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Joel, your last word. Do you still have a relationship with Johnny?

JOEL THOMAS HYNES: Yeah, absolutely. I you know came to like him. By the end of the first draft, I felt like I cracked him open, but I didn't know if I liked him? So, obviously, then you go back and you work and you work. But I surprisingly came to like him a lot. And I was just thinking I went so heavy into his head at some point. He commits an armed robbery. He needed some money. He was kind of celebrating that destructive celebration thing some people do. And he needed some money, so he pulled an armed robbery. Not like with a gun or a knife — just a big board with a nail in it, you know? And I worked it out. I scoped out this store. And sort of watched the possibility of how that would go down, the coming and going, when would be an appropriate time to do it, how you would dress, how you would stand, like a lot of you know boys who go and do an armed robbery, they make themselves appear heavier, shorter than they than they actually are to throw off that description. So I send Johnny into this store, and it's high intensity, very dramatic armed robbery of this woman who's just like kind of shocked. And he does something at one point. I guess violence walks in through the door, but she goes for the cordless phone and he smashes it off the counter and a bit of plastic hit her in the forehead and she starts to bleed. He's apologizing. He's making these moves to feed her the details like he asks her for a carton of a certain brand of cigarettes that he doesn't smoke and this sort of thing. He doesn't smoke and he tosses them and he leaves. He crouches down as he's running across the road, dumps this layer of clothes, walks down the steps, ends up into really crowded George Street, walks to the cab stand, gets the cab to drop him off over here. Eight minutes later, he's on a bus, passing by the store, going in an opposite direction, watching the police outside. So a very intense thing that he pulls off. Every time I pass the store in St. John's or walk in there, I go oh my god, I robbed this place. This is the first thing I think because I went so heavy into it. I feel like I rolled it.

JD: That’s author Joel Thomas Hynes, in conversation last night with Carol. Mr. Hynes, and the other four authors shortlisted for the 2017 Governor General’s Literary Awards for English language Fiction, joined Carol on stage last night at Toronto's Harbourfront Centre.

[Music: Cultural]

Hawking PhD

Guest: Arthur Smith

JD: If you're looking for a fun light read, Stephen Hawking's PhD thesis “Properties of Expanding Universes”, has been made available on the University of Cambridge’s website for the first time. It was released yesterday. It was so popular it crashed the university's open-access repository. It's been viewed more than 60,000 times in less than 24 hours. Arthur Smith is the head of scholarly communication at Cambridge University. He’s part of the team that worked to release Mr. Hawking's thesis. We reached him in Cambridge.

CO: Mr. Smith, were you expecting that Stephen Hawking's thesis was going to make such a big bang?

ARTHUR SMITH: No, I mean we expected it would cause some interest. But just the level of interest has taken off. It’s been absolutely amazing! And we've been completely bowled over by just the amazing response we've seen from all around the world.

CO: You had 60,000 hits on that, before the site crashed. Have you been able to get it working again? Get it up and running?

AS: We've done some work in the background to try and mitigate the number of people trying to get onto the site. I think it should be working a bit better now. But we're seeing a constant stream of people trying to access the site. And it's just been amazing.

CO: And who do you think is showing all this interest? Who's out there who's trying to read this?

AS: Well, I mean there's obviously a few researchers and scientists who want to read it. But I think the most interest is coming from the general public. I think the vast majority of our statistics that we're seeing is coming from just ordinary people that just want to see this piece of amazing research.

CO: And how many ordinary people do you could understand it?

AS: Well, I don't think I can understand it. And I've got a PhD as well, so I think that says something about just how incredible this research is. I think more importantly though — instead of just understanding it — is just it opens people's eyes. It lets people see a side of research and a side of curiosity that they wouldn't normally see.

CO: But I mean this thesis “Properties of Expanding Universes”, though it's, as you say, very difficult for anyone even with a PhD to understand. There's some very clear prose in there, isn't there? I mean he had a clear thing to say. Do you think that comes across?

AS: I think so. I think it's a nice piece of work. I mean it's interesting as well you know we live in such an online age. Now, to see these handwritten notes and you know things being crossed out, and corrections here and there. It really humanizes the work in a way.

CO: Give me some examples of the things that he has handwritten onto the paper?

AS: Well basically, all of the equations. Every single equation that's in there is handwritten. And you know, he’s had to take the time to think about where am I going to put this letter here? And where am I going to put this equation there? And then, of course, there's quite famously his signature on the front page, saying this is his work, which as we all know, he could no longer do now.

CO: He was 23-years-old. The date is the 15th of October, 1965. And he had been diagnosed with ALS just a couple of years earlier than that, is that right?

AS: Yes, I believe so yes.

CO: And so how difficult was it for him at that point? Was he already having difficulty with writing and with typing?

AS: Well, I mean I think you should really ask Professor Hawking yourself. But I believe that is the case, yes. It was really a long journey to get to that. And it was really a battle of really mind-over-matter in many cases.

CO: Now, this paper — there’s 60,000 people who have tried to see it, or want to see it — how was Stephen Hawking's thesis available before you had this opportunity?

AS: Well, we had a digitized copy of the thesis for many years, in fact. And we would give this out to people if they paid a fee, which was about 65 pounds or so, which put a lot of people off. Of course, a physical copy has always resided in the Cambridge University Library. And if you can get to Cambridge, you can come in have a look at the thesis itself. But apart from that, pretty much no one has seen it. And I think if you actually look at the physical copy, it's been read about four or five times.

CO: And this this release of the paper online was the kickoff to what's called “Open-Access Week”, is that right?

AS: Yes, that's correct. Because the aim of Open-Access Week is to try and bring as much of the research that's produced in universities and institutions around the world, and bring that out to the public. And, in fact, anybody in the world can read and interrogate that material.

CO: There’s quite the inspiring statement that Professor Hawking put out. I Guess he released to the university. He said, “By making my PhD thesis open-access, I hope to inspire people around the world to look up at the stars and not down at their feet, to wonder about our place in the universe and to try to make sense of the cosmos.” And he says, “Anyone anywhere in the world should have free, unhindered access to not just my research, but to the research of every great and inquiring mind across the spectrum of human understanding.” It's a wonderful statement, isn't it?

AS: It is. It's absolutely fantastic. And it's what we believe in and what we want to see. We really want to see this as the future of research. And research that is produced — often at public expense — should be public property really. So it should be out there for anybody to read and use and do good things with.

CO: Are there other theses at Cambridge University that people are attempting to access? Maybe the rate of 60,000 in 24 hours, but what are the others? Are there some other popular people in your system?

AS: Off the top of my head, there's a few. I think we've got Jermaine Grier's thesis in the repository somewhere, and we've got a few other names in there that I think might ring a few bells. I think we've got Jane Goodall’s thesis as well. Some of the titles I wouldn’t even know where to begin with them.

CO: Well, it's great to have this access, Mr. Smith. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AS: It's a pleasure. Thank you.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Arthur Smith is the head of scholarly communication at Cambridge. And that is where we reached him.

[Music: Jazz]

Wrestler rescue

JD: Harry Smith is a professional wrestler. He is perhaps better known as Davey Boy Smith, Jr. He was on his way to watch a match, when he came across a woman clearly in distress, straddling the edge of an overpass in Calgary. And he realized the only way to help her was to use the moves that he had spent years perfecting. Mr. Smith told the story to David Gray, host of CBC Calgary's “The Calgary Eyeopener”.

SOUNDCLIP

HARRY SMITH: The scene there was a girl, she was sort of straddled and she was halfway off the bridge. And I could see that she was really distressed and she was crying. And there was somebody that was trying to talk to her. So I got my mom to stop, and I hurled over the barricade there. I started to try and talk to her and reason with her. And she was just you know when people are in that kind of frame of mind, you can't understand it. They're just going a million miles an hour, crying. And I decided to take it into my own hands to grab her because she was you know saying you know don't touch me, I'm going to go, I'm going to go. And I managed to get within close distance so I could pinch her leg that was still inside in between my legs. So I knew that as long as I had her anchored, that she was going to be secure. And then she started threatening more that she was going to go and she started trying to fight me off. And I'm looking over the overpass, and there's people waving going you know don't jump. You don't need to do this.

DAVID GRAY: So I'm just trying to picture this. So from her point of view, there she is. She's on the bridge. She’s clearly in distress. She looks over. She sees a pro wrestler jump over the railing. You try to talk to her. That's not working, and then you make the lunge and you grab her. That's where we are right now?

HS: Yes.

DG: So you had her pinned?

HS: Yes.

DG: Was she trying to get free?

HS: Yes, she was.

DG: Did she say anything about having a weapon?

HS: Yes, she did. She told the other guy that I with. She had told him that she had a gun.

DG: A gun! Did you know before you grappled her?

HS: No.

DG: No.

HS: Because I had her arms pinned, because she was she looked like she was trying to reach down to like something in her pockets.

DG: Right.

HS: So when she had her arms above, she was basically like helpless. And she kept squirming. She’s going get off me, get off me. I said no, you're not going to move unless if I want you to move. She was under a lot of stress and then I think after everything had happened, she started to cry. And she said she just wanted a hug. And it was really emotional for me because I wanted to cry too.

JD: That was wrestler Harry Smith — aka Davey Boy Smith Jr. — speaking with “Calgary Eyeopener” host David Gray. And according to police, the woman was apprehended and transported to hospital.

[Music: Ambient]

Chow Quen Lee obit

Guest: Yew Lee

JD: Her strength helped her overcome war and poverty. It helped her to deal with life as a single mother. And it drove her to spend her life standing up for the rights of others. Chow Quen Lee, a leader in the redress campaign over the Chinese head tax, died earlier this month. She was 105-years-old. The Chinese Immigration Act effectively banned Chinese immigration to Canada for more than two decades. It was this law that separated Ms. Lee from her husband for 14 years. She was well into her 80s when she volunteered to be a lead plaintiff in the class-action lawsuit against the federal government over the Chinese head tax. Yew Lee is Chow Quen Lee’s son. He also helped his mother with the redress campaign. We reached him in Chelsea, Quebec.

CO: Mr. Lee, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss.

YEW LEE: Thank you. Thank you for your condolences.

CO: Now, your mother — throughout her life — I understand that people called her “Nooey Quen”. What does that mean?

YL: That means women’s power or women's rights in Chinese. It was given to her when she was born in 1911, which was appropriate for that age. It’s the birth of the new China. The philosophy at that time was that they were going to create a new China where women were going to be equal.

CO: And so this is the China that your mom was born into, and as you just gave the date. she was 105-years-old and she died.

YL: Yes. Another week-and-a-half and she would have made 106.

CO: I'm so sorry. But what an extraordinary woman, I mean her accomplishment, her struggle for the rights of Chinese-Canadians. Did she feel that she had been successful finally at getting the recognition about racist policies in Canada?

YL: She was satisfied with the apology and that this group of people was treated with respect by the government of Canada. But the financial compensation, I think she knew that it was merely symbolic. I mean 81,000 Chinese paid the head tax, which was almost enough to pay for the cost of the Canadian Pacific Railway across Canada at that time.

CO: How did she tell you about that head tax? What did she say to you when you were growing up?

YL: I always remember being a kid — I was five or six-years-old — and she’d open this big, rusty old steamer trunk in the corner of the room. And she’d take out a piece of paper, dust it off and say this is something that remains unfinished business. This piece of paper is very important, and we're going to deal with that someday.

CO: And that piece of paper represented what your father had paid — $500 — a lot of money in 1913. He had to borrow the money I understand. So then he went back to marry your mother in 1930 I believe, is that right?

YL: Yes.

CO: But he couldn't bring her back to Canada.

YL: No, it’s the part of immigration that even today bothers me a lot. You want someone's labour and somehow you separate that from their humanity. You know, you want the goods they produce. You want their skills. You want their skills. You want their education. But you don't want their family.

CO: And that Chinese Immigration Act of 1885 — the one that imposed that head tax — it was eventually scratched in order to make one that made it completely illegal for any Chinese people to come to Canada.

YL: Yes. In 1923, they said enough was enough; we've raised it from $50 to $100 to $500, which my father paid. And said this isn’t working, let’s just kick them out completely.

CO: So when did your mother finally when she was able to join your father, because by that point, she had children with him when he visited China, right?

YL: Well, there were three of us, including myself. We’re born in China. it was a very trying distance-relationship, because if you were a payer of the Chinese head tax and not allowed to become a citizen, you're only allowed back two years at a time. So he would sell his business and go back. But he’d have to rush back; otherwise he’d have to pay that head tax again.

CO: There were so many people who were affected by this. So many Chinese Canadians. And yet, it was hard for them to get litigants, wasn't it? I mean your mother was willing to step forward and say yes, I'm going to take part in this class-action lawsuit. What did that take for her in order to step up and become part of that suit?

YL: Well, in fact, she was more proactive than that. There were parallel things at work. The Chinese-Canadian National Council were pursuing a class-action. And independently, my mother and I were speaking about this. And we were saying we should take action as a family and deal with this. When I called people at the court challenges program, I think they were out west at the time, they said well, we can't say much. And

CO: But yet, it’s so astonishing that it still took years and several different governments, who refused to recognize and to apologize for this racist policy, this racist law where Canada made all this money. And so what did it mean for your mother? Finally, it was Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who gave the official apology to Chinese-Canadians in 2006. Did she feel that she had accomplished what she set out to do?

YL: Well, I mean she just looks at her cohorts. There might be a few left in Vancouver, I’m not sure. But the cohorts we had in Toronto are all gone. So there were spouses that were still alive, and maybe still alive out west. I could say the people out west are still fighting it. They felt that this compensation was an insult.

CO: Well, how much money was involved?

YL: It was I think surviving spouses and head tax payers, but not family, got $20,000. So part of the challenge was to be able to get compensation was to live into your 90s and be 100-years-old if you were a head tax payer.

CO: So after all of this — after this law that well, first of all, allowed that Chinese men came and built the railroad for being paid a fraction of what men in Canada were getting, and all the money the money they took in this head tax — the compensation was very small. But your mother, she fought to the end, didn't she?

YL: Yes, she did. She did. If she was in Vancouver and still alive, She'd probably be one of the holdouts.

CO: What a remarkable woman. You’re so lucky to have had is your mom.

YL: Well, I'm getting more so now

CO: Mr. Lee, I appreciate you telling us about your mom and what she did. Thank you.

YL: Thank you, Carol.

JD: Yew Lee was the son of Chow Quen Lee. We reached him in Chelsea, Quebec Chow Quen Lee was one of three immigrant litigants who led a class-action lawsuit against the federal government over its Chinese head tax. She died earlier this month. She was 105-years-old.

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October 24, 2017 episode transcript

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