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The Current Transcript for October 24, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

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What the Me Too campaign really does put the focus back on the victims, to give us power. And what that enables us to do is say no more we're not going to put up with this anymore.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: The revelations that triggered the Me Too hash tag are not quite three weeks old but they have unleashed a lifetime's worth of stories and pain, as women step forward to be counted and heard with their own stories of sexual assault and sexual harassment. And as the numbers grow so does the outrage and the pushback. Globe and Mail columnist Margaret Wente thinks it's time to turn down the volume. And she says she's not alone. Hear her and the debate in just a moment. Also today when Dr. Nabiha Islam arrived at a makeshift camp to help Rohingya refugees she realized their terrible journey to the Bangladesh border wasn't even the worst of the traumas they carried with them.

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Just the physical torture crossing through these muddy banks through 35-40 degree Celsius heat with no food with no water, is perhaps the easiest part of it for a lot of these men women and children.

AMT: In half an hour., the people she met, the stories they shared and what the rest of the world needs to know about their plight. And you may remember Khizr Khan the man whose son was one of the first Muslim American soldiers to be killed in the Iraq war. By choosing to speak at the Democratic National Convention he became a target of then candidate Donald Trump. Today Khizr Khan weighs in on presidential calls to grieving families.

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The call of the office where Donald Trump six is to make sure that every word that is uttered is comforting.

AMT: He has still got that miniature U.S. Constitution in his jacket pocket. He says he has more faith in the American public than ever. Hear him in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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'Unfair to men': Margaret Wente criticizes #MeToo campaign for ramping up outrage

Guest: Margaret Wente, Farrah Khan

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VOICE 1: #MeToo, last week at work in Canada in 2017, by friends, by mentors, by peers. My gaze is wide and my teeth are sharp. Better heed.

VOICE 2: I represented Canada in pageants when I was younger and was sexually assaulted by men who felt I exist for their revelry. I do not. #MeToo.

VOICE 3: If you know someone who this hasn't happened to let me know what bubble they live in. I grew up in rural Canada and started as a kid. #MeToo.

VOICE 4: I've been drunk and was sexually assaulted. I did not deserve it. #MeToo.

AMT: The me too movement took off on Twitter after the wave of sexual assault allegations against movie producer Harvey Weinstein became public over two weeks ago. Since then it's taken on a life of its own. Thousands of tweets and posts have been shared online including the few we just heard voiced by our producers. Behind every tweet and post with a Me Too hashtag. There is a story unique and personal experiences of sexual misconduct. It's been hailed as a positive constructive reaction to a pervasive cultural problem. But Me Too does have its critics and Globe and Mail columnist Margaret Wente is amongst them. She's with me in our Toronto studio, hello.

MARGARET WENTE: Hello. The headline in your opinion piece this week is: Please Turn down the Volume on the Outrage Machine. What do you mean by the outrage machine?

MARGARET WENTE: I mean the commentary that's been saturating social media and other media for the last three weeks. Let me start by saying I think that when the Weinstein case unleashed a whole torrent of Revelation which has been very helpful, very valuable, very necessary. And I believe as strongly as anybody else that predatory men need to be intercepted and stopped. And we've got to call them out and call more of them out. And that is happening now in the entertainment industry for sure. But at the same time there has been a strain of commentary that essentially demonizes men and portrays all women as victims. For example you read things like “our culture is a culture of toxic masculinity where violence against women is the norm and it is and is accepted”. We read other things such as, oh a commenter in the Guardian said: “I've endured sexual assault all my life as has every other woman” and I can't- These are these are comments that I can't relate to and that do not reflect my experience and the experience of many other women. Now I would not presume to speak for the experience of any women but myself and my small number of people that I know. But I think the overall tone of the commentary is sometimes over-the-top and does no good for the cause.

AMT: You talk about concerns around the language in this conversation - sexual assault, harassment -What are your concerns?

MARGARET WENTE: My concern is that we're using these terms really carelessly and that we tend to inflate things into sexual assault so that everything is sexual assault. For example, I've read in the same paragraph about someone - people who are who are attacked, physically attacked along with somebody who endured her boss coming along and trying to massage her, give her a shoulder massage in the office. I think there's a pretty big gulf between those two things. While you can't condone a boss coming around and giving her a massage in the office, it is not the same as being threatened and physically attacked. And I think that if we are too careless with our language we trivialize the real assault problems and the victims of real assault. I'm not saying lesser stuff should happen, of course it shouldn't happen. It has happened to everybody. But there are degrees there and we need to pay attention to that.

AMT: It's happened to everybody. You actually list ways that you've experienced some of this.

MARGARET WENTE: Absolutely.

AMT: What have you gone through?

MARGARET WENTE: I think what I've gone through is probably typical of many many women my age, and I know this because I've got the email to prove it. So just to run down. It's what I call common garden variety crap, and it deals with people following you in the street, catcalls at the sort of the low end, people flashing in public, sometimes masturbating when you're watching and some exposure to male genitalia once in a while, being ground on a street car. In the office, occasionally overly friendly coworkers. Over the years in private life it's people who get dates who get too insistent and don't want to hear no and you have to yell at them and push them out of the room. Probably the most serious incident for me was when I was under age and a friend of a dad - a dad's friend made a pass at me. I'm sorry I said that wrong. The dad of a friend of mine made a pass at me. That never went any further. That was the end of it. It was really terrible. I will never forget it. But can I really say me too? I can't I can't. Because in spite of all that stuff I'm not traumatized by it. I don't feel particularly like my life has been ruined by it, certainly. None of it ever stopped my career. These were all basically more or less minor unpleasantnesses that I think most women endure. They shouldn't but they do and there you go. And you know now I'm older and wary of staying out of those situations, if I can. But as I said this does not mean in any way that I don't have the greatest compassion and support of victims of sexual violence. They deserve all of our love and all of our support.

AMT: But are you suggesting that not everyone who's like signing on to the Me Too hash tag is a victim then, by the by your standard.

MARGARET WENTE: Well victim in my guess is you know how you feel, the way you feel about yourself. But in fact the hashtag doesn't distinguish between the experiences of women who sign on. So sometimes I read some of it and I think “hmm” that's you know doesn't sound too traumatizing to me. But there you go.

AMT: Margaret Wente, someone else is waiting to get into this conversation. Farrah Khan is the sexual violence support and education manager at Ryerson University she's also the co-chair of the Ontario Provincial roundtable on violence against women. She's with us in our studio. Hello.

FARRAH KHAN: Good morning.

AMT: So first of all how do you react to what Margaret Wente is saying?

FARRAH KHAN: There's so many pieces. I think one of things I do think is when people say “me too” what I saw is an opportunity for people to speak out and have the conversation, that we don't want to turn down the outrage machine we actually want to support validate and affirm people when they say they've been harmed. And with sexual violence it is a continuum and no one saying it isn't. And we have to really understand that there is a range of it and with the Weinstein case we saw the range. We saw someone who inappropriately made passes at people and then escalated it to forcing people to massage him to orally raping someone. So we saw the range of it. So we know that when we don't stop someone at one point they can escalate and oftentimes do. And so we have to call that in. Also I think it's sometimes from my very privileged position to say that you know “well didn't affect me. So it's not so bad for others”. Everybody has different experiences with sexual violence and sexual violence is ubiquitous. It's something that happens and when we say that the idea that “oh you know what, it happened in my past and it didn't affect me”. We imagine a world without violence. I really appreciate the fact that people that are younger than me are asking for a world without violence. But I had to put up with as a young person, that no one has to put up with that anymore.

AMT: Margaret, What do you what do you say to that?

MARGARET WENTE: I think that Farrah makes a very good points but it's the idea that men can and do escalate is quite misleading. The number of men responsible for sexual violence, meaning physical violence, is pretty low. The vast majority of men are not violent sexual abusers or violent abusers of any kind. And to sort of tar the whole male gender with this terrible problem is very unfair to men, I think. So we have to maintain a certain sense of portion and realism about the number of men who are doing the offending. Just because most women have had some experience with harassment and assault - probably ninety nine point nine percent of women - does not mean that all men are assaulters and harassers. Those are two very different things.

FARRAH KHAN: I find it so interesting when people bring up the “not all men” as soon as people talk about sexual violence. Not all men do commit sexual violence, absolutely. But men are, actually, men can be complicit in knowing that a friend says something. One of the biggest conversations I had this summer with young people, when I was doing a tour across Canada around, talking about sexual violence, when I heard young men talk about this one thing they said is “how do I call in a friend? How to have a conversation with a friend when they commit sexual violence? How do I call in a friend when they make a joke that isn't okay on a whatsapp group?” And we have to create opportunity for men to have those conversations. Never in this Me Too conversation is it about saying all men are abusers. What we are saying is that sexual violence happens. We know that the numbers are over 600,000 now in Canada. That's the numbers that were released this July by the Statistics Canada. We know that the fact that we have to have that conversation, and it's not one man sexually assaulting all those people. It's a culture of allowing that to happen.

MARGARET WENTE: This is where I get a bit confused, a culture of allowing that to happen. The claims are that we live in a toxic masculine - culture of toxic masculinity that condones and encourages violence against women. Where is that culture? That is not the culture I see around us. No one condones that stuff. Everybody knows that sexual assault is wrong. When we say teach men not to rape. I understand the sentiment. But men know not to rape. This is a culture that is more down on sexual violence than ever before in history and it has less tolerance for sexual violence and sexual abuse than ever before in history. Do we have a ways to go? Oh yes we do. We have serious problems, but to say that we live in a culture that condones violence is simply not true, and it is not true to the experience of many women.

FARRAH KHAN: I'd love to meet these many women because it's interesting to pull them out of a hat. But I think it's like for many women these conversations are new to them in terms of having this. And we're in a time where people are having this conversation. I too are seeing, we have different hash it every fall there's a new hash tag around these conversations. But that says that people are in a place where they want to talk about it and they don't want to see it as a norm. Never do I want a young woman to come to my office again and say “I guess this is just the price to pay to work in this industry. I guess this is just the way things are.” We'd never want people to say that we always want better. And I think that's the hope that we have to have.

MARGARET WENTE: Absolutely not. And yet, all right I'm upper middle class, white privileged, all of those things. But I've had a fair number of conversations with women certainly my age and I have to say that I don't know anyone who had her career ruined or sidetracked by a man who was hitting on her or trying to blackmail her or stop her. These things happen. I know they happen. But in many places they are just not that common. In the entertainment industry they are very common, sports industry where involving young athletes, young female athletes very common. But I think they are to some extent situational. They are much much worse in industries where there's a huge power imbalance that just entertainment industries and as we saw in Quebec this week more examples coming out. I think that absolutely has to be has to be cut out and taken out as far as possible.

AMT: Margaret Wente. Could it be that this conversation wasn't going on when you started your career? So you know that this conversation goes on in a different way. So how can you be so sure that so many women, as you were coming up in your career weren't facing that? Because this is a conversation that the women of a new generation are forcing onto the table where it wasn't happening before.

MARGARET WENTE: I'm very glad we're having the conversation. But you know we've gone back and talked about all of our careers. So I have a pretty good idea of the lay of the land. My mother was also an executive and dealt with sexual abuse in the office situation as many companies had to do. And for example that's the way in which the climate has changed in any public company these days. Any kind of sexual abuse harassment at the top, if known will not be tolerated. And that guy is going to be out there right away.

AMT: If known, isn’t that the key, though?

MARGARET WENTE: If known, yes, that’s right. That’s right. So outing people is extremely important.

AMT: I've got a clip I want you to hear. This is Charlene Senn. She's a professor of psychology and women's and gender studies at the University of Windsor. She created something called the EAAA sexual assault reduction program. It's aimed at women in the early years of university. Listen to what she says about why this program is directed at women.

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If focusing on men worked and eliminated all sexual violence then we would do that. But these programs don't decrease victimization or perpetration, though they we hope they do in the longer term. So we're left with the situation where women are being faced tonight and Saturday night with a man who is attempting to sexually assault them, nevertheless. So EAAA places 100% of the responsibility for sexual violence on the men who perpetrate the crime. But it gives women the knowledge to trust themselves and a toolbox of strategies to maximize the chance that she'll be able to get out of this situation with less harm.

AMT: Farrah Khan. What do you think of a program that focuses on women instead of men?

FARRAH KHAN: It's one of many tools that we can use. It's dealing with the world. The current state of the world they are in. The idea of having a world that is consent to culture is science fiction at this point. We know that sexual violence happens time and time again. So it is one tool. I think what I hope in this conversation on Me Too is that we talk about the tools that we use to survive right now, we also dream of the world we want. So thinking about how do we ensure sustainable funding for violence against women services? How do we ensure that we're talking about the fact that people of color? Black people, indigenous, people are affected by sexual violence in different ways. So definitely it's one tool but we have to talk about the myriad of systemic issues that we need to address to make sure that violence isn't cannot continue.

AMT: Margaret Wente.

MARGARET WENTE: If we think we're going to eradicate violence in men, we are dreaming. So this approach seems to be at the very least practical because it empowers women, and that's all for the good. You know so much of this conversation in depicting men as the aggressors and women as the victims, portray women as fragile creatures who cannot who can do nothing for themselves and have no agency. I think that's not the message I want to give my daughters or nieces. I want to tell them “Look you can’t. You are not responsible for the sexual violence that happens to you but you do have tools that can help keep you safe. So why not use them.”

AMT: But isn't one of those tools now this #MeToo, this ability to be out there and be counted.

MARGARET WENTE: Absolutely yes. But if we if we think that you know violence is built into the human nature, unfortunately, we can do a lot to help minimize it. We can do a lot to teach people but we cannot ever eliminate violence, especially among men who are the more violent sex. And if you think we can, I don't know what planet you're coming from. You're coming from a world that will never exist.

FARRAH KHAN: Well I come from Earth. And my hope is that we don't set such a low bar for men. Like I have four brothers. Why are we setting such a low bar for men that they can't actually - you know - not sex assault people, that they can't actually use their power to harm, that they actually can create a world where they can be emotionally available, that they can be a supportive partner. Because I know men that are and we have to celebrate and have a space for that. We have to recognize that actually our limited narrow view of masculinity harms men and there's not one way of being a man, that men of color are shaped around these ideas that we have assumptions about men of color that we make these ideas that certain men do sexual violence or men don't. That actually harms men altogether.

MARGARET WENTE: Can I say something really terrible?

FARRAH KHAN: I think you said something terribly terrible.

MARGARET WENTE: Most of the men, most of the men in my life are pretty good guys.

FARRAH KHAN: But that's not something terrible.

AMT: Why is that terrible? That is not terrible but…

MARGARET WENTE: That is not the way we frame the discourse. [Crosstalk] The discourse is framed around men are potential rapists, unless we stop them, then they start behaving better.

AMT: No isn't the discourse that this is going on, that this is what women are facing in the workforce. Some of these men go home to their wives and they're really nice. But what they do at the office is not really nice.

FARRAH KHAN: And also that men are also facing this too. I think Terry Crews raising this and James Van Der Beek racing this, is that men are also harmed in this piece. But I think we need to go away from this idea that we're just talking about you know man hating feminist, because that's kind of where we're going. And you know I don't think we're talking about that. What we're saying is we are hoping and envisioning a world where men can actually be their full selves. So we're actually saying to men and women and to all genders that we have an opportunity to create a world that is different, and we can't have that.

AMT: And we're out of time [laughs]. Thank you both. Thank you both for weighing in on this. Margaret Wente the Globe and Mail columnist. Farrah Khan's sexual violence support and education manager at Ryerson University co-chair of the Ontario Provincial Roundtable on Violence against Women. Over to you what do you think of the #MeToo movement. We want to hear from you. Find us on Facebook. Go to Twitter. We are @TheCurrentCBC. Send us an email from our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact link. The news is next. And then we are talking to a woman who's been helping Rohingya refugees on the border with Bangladesh. This is The Current.

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'I have no right to look away': Doctor says world needs to know plight of Rohingya refugees

Guest: Nabiha Islam

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come:

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If my husband is out here fighting for our country and he risked his life for our country why can't you remember his name. And that will make me upset and cry even more because my husband was an awesome soldier.

Myesha Johnson, the Gold Star widow of La David Johnson, says she feels disrespected by the U.S. president Donald Trump. What would Khizr Khan think. We will ask the Gold Star father who called out candidate Trump at the Democratic Convention last year, when he joins me in half an hour. But first bringing compassion and care to a cold blooded crisis.

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The sounds of thousands of Rohingya Muslims taking the final steps of a long and unimaginably arteries June journey out of Myanmar and into Bangladesh. The minority group is fleeing persecution by Myanmar's military. Already more than half a million Rohingya have made this border crossing since August. The journey and the attacks take a punishing toll on the refugees’ health. Roger LeMoyne is a photojournalist working with UNICEF at the border.

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The first scene that I started photographing was a point where people were wading through water of the rice paddy and climbing up a muddy bank to get onto that kind of dike that separates one paddy from the other, which would allow them to walk on dry land then towards Bangladesh. They will be like right up to their shoulders in the, water carrying their kids on their shoulders, holding them up above the water and along came a man with a baby in a basket. And he had to make his way up this very muddy slippery bank. You know he somehow managed to balance all this stuff at the same time in the water. There was a father holding his baby up above the water. Many of the refugees were carrying solar panels. Some of them wrapped in bags some of them just out there like carrying a solar panel on their head. So in this photograph there's the man in the water. There's the man with the baby in the basket and there was a woman with a solar panel on her head and crawling up this muddy bank. They use the solar panels to charge their cell phones because that's the only way they've got to keep in touch with people in Myanmar. And they kind of rise out of the water in this diagonal motion going up towards the top of the rice paddy. That gives them a path to walk out.

AMT: Well you can see the photograph Roger LeMoyne was describing on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Prime Minister Trudeau has appointed Bob Rae as Canada's special envoy to Myanmar. The former Ontario Premier is expected to travel to the country next week and report directly to the prime minister with his advice on the situation. One person who has just been to the region is Dr. Nabiha Islam, a resident in internal medicine at the University of Toronto. She has been treating and caring for refugees inside the camps in Bangladesh. She is working with a U.S. non-profit called Hope Foundation for Women and children in Bangladesh. Dr. Nabiha Islam is back in Toronto and with me in our studio. And I should warn you some of what she will describe will be graphic and violent. It is disturbing. Hello.

NABIHA ISLAM: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: We heard that photojournalist Roger LeMoyne describing in that clip is one little piece of a long journey that Rohingya refugees take to get into Bangladesh. What effects from this journey do you see amongst the people you were treating in those camps?

NABIHA ISLAM: I mean even before getting to the point where they could even cross into Bangladesh they have suffered unimaginable torture and persecution for decades now in Burma. And they hold on because they've lived there for centuries. That's their home. They know nothing else. But while their women's bodies are essentially being used as the battlegrounds of this war, so women are being raped, physically assaulted, violated in the worst possible ways. So one of the sort of special tactics of the Burmese military is to strip these women naked and then to force them to watch as their husbands and their sons throats slit and then they are gang raped. So you can imagine just the physical torture that is experienced crossing through these muddy banks through you know 35-40 degree Celsius heat with no food with no water is perhaps the easiest part of it, for a lot of these men women and children.

AMT: The weight of the psychological abuse and then the physical abuse, just even having to walk after all of that.

NABIHA ISLAM: Yes.

AMT: And that's when you see them.

NABIHA ISLAM: Yes.

AMT: After all of that.

NABIHA ISLAM: Exactly.

AMT: What are those refugee camps look like up close?

NABIHA ISLAM: It's a teeming mass of people, of animals, of NGOs. On my first day as soon as the microbus doors opened I just remember being hit by the incredible sensation of humidity, of heat, of you know the smell of human excrement. Nowhere you look can you see someone who is in some form of comfort.

AMT: You get bussed in every day to camp.

NABIHA ISLAM: Yes.

AMT: And so those doors open. You're obviously in that some kind of air conditioned microbus and then you feel the heat. What do you hear?

NABIHA ISLAM: Children screaming, crying, women talking, the sounds of human life, parents scolding their children, grandparents pulling their grandkids along with them.

AMT: Is there one image that you can't let go of?

NABIHA ISLAM: The first week that I was there. I was mostly working in the health camps which the hope Foundation has set up at the base of the hill is I think this work is completely necessary. But I was also noticing that most of the individuals in need were languishing at the tops of these hills that the camps are built upon, the elderly, women in very late trimester of pregnancy would be essentially languishing.

AMT: They can't get down the hill to where…

NABIHA ISLAM: They can’t climb down the hills to the health camps. So I started going up the hills myself with a bag of medications and with a field worker from the Hope Foundation. There was one day where I was in a bit of a rush and there was a woman who kept calling us over. She just arrived two days ago and she told me that she had spent seven nights in the jungle after witnessing her neighbor be completely mutilated by the Burmese military. So she told me about how her neighbor's breasts had been cut off. Her abdomen was stabbed multiple times such that her intestines could be seen and then she was stabbed in the vagina multiple times. Somehow she survived all of this and was in another camp and there was no way for me to get in touch with her. But I just remember this woman telling me this incredibly difficult story with the tears sort of silently streaming down her face and I asked her “is this the first time you've ever told anyone this?” And she said “yes”. So those are the stories that stick with you.

AMT: You say as well that they would - the cloth they use to cover themselves for modesty is deliberately taken away from them.

NABIHA ISLAM: Yes, they're stripped of their niqabs or stripped of their burqas. I've talked to many women who feel that they've essentially fled in their underclothes. They wear blouse and something that we would consider is a sarong and they don't feel comfortable coming out to the health camps or standing in these lines for hours and hours and hours for relief items, because this is as I said a favorite tactic of the Burmese military.

AMT: You make the point that tents go up the hills and they're not easy. You started essentially making tent calls.

NABIHA ISLAM: House calls, yes, in a sense.

AMT: So what would their reaction be when you showed up?

NABIHA ISLAM: You know I was always incredibly overwhelmed by their generosity, their kindness, their hospitality. I mean these are people that have less than nothing. I remember going into the tent. She was an 80 year old woman, had somehow been able to flee with her husband and with her son and daughter in law and their children and had one chair. And she called me over and insisted that I sit on her one chair. I think we argued probably for a good three or four minutes with me insisting “no you should since you're the one who was sick, please”. You know this is just one very small offering. They have just this incredible sense of humanity and compassion even after everything that they've gone through.

AMT: And you talk of course of the psychological effect of this. And I don't even know is there any help for that for anybody on that level?

NABIHA ISLAM: Yes. So there are NGOs on the ground. There have been gender based violence tents springing up and do what we call safe spaces for women. So this is a really big part of our approach.

AMT: Give me just like run through the kinds of injuries and illness that you would confront that you have to be ready to try to treat.

NABIHA ISLAM: I mean very commonly would be things like pneumonia as an upper respiratory tract infections, if you consider that they've spent however many days in the jungle and trekked through mud and rivers just to get here. You can imagine the communicable diseases that they are also carrying with them, a lot of fungal infections, a lot of infectious diarrhea. And in some of my work on the Syrian Jordanian border with refugees. I saw a lot of what we call psychosomatic illness. So a lot of musculoskeletal joint aches and pains from essentially translating the emotional trauma of what they have seen and experienced into physical pain. What I found that was different with the Rohingyan population is there is definitely a lot of sort of musculoskeletal aches and pains. The vast majority of cases were because the Burmese military had beaten them, actually the Burmese military and the civilians who back them.

AMT: And then they have to walk how long with those injuries?

NABIHA ISLAM: For a lot of these men women and children it's hundreds of kilometers. It's not an easy track. I did a very small part of it crossing the Naf River with our team to see if there were any stranded Rohingya, on the other side honestly it was one of the most difficult things I've done physically.

AMT: You crossed the river. How did you cross?

NABIHA ISLAM: So we took on the way there, one of those very rickety wooden dinghies that the Rohingya are crossing in. I remember they just kept going back to the shore to collect more passengers. And there are multiple times as we were crossing where the motor would start and stop because we were obviously over capacity.

AMT: So tell me about the kids. You mentioned a little bit about the children but what did you see?

NABIHA ISLAM: You don't see children getting to behave like children. You know I saw a lot of sort of six and seven year olds who had the burden, the responsibility of their younger siblings because you know their fathers have been killed, perhaps their mothers have even been killed as well, or so traumatized that they're not able to provide emotionally for their children.

AMT: How able are you to treat some of these things in these camps? Like can you actually help them move forward or were that kind of stuck there for a while, in those conditions?

NABIHA ISLAM: Yes. I mean it's that's why we always talk about sort of sanitation and water programs as sort of the basis of everything that we do. And in this type of a crisis we're having to do a lot of this in parallel. So we do what we can and you know you feel silly sometimes going to these tents saying okay, make sure you wash your hands after you use the bathroom because really where are they going to wash their hands? And I know what the bathroom looks like for them.

AMT: It's a bathroom at all.

NABIHA ISLAM: No.

AMT: No. What about surgeries? What about people who need that kind of help?

NABIHA ISLAM: So the Hope Foundation for example has emergency evacuation tom toms, where if there's someone that's too sick to deal with in the health camp we will ship them off to the MSF hospital. There are multiple clinics and more field hospitals being built as we speak.

AMT: But it sounds like most people would have some kind of health issue once they get to that camp, just because of the sheer of the enormity of the journey and what they are going through.

NABIHA ISLAM: Yes definitely. I would also say 100% are suffering from dehydration, heat exhaustion, heat stroke.

AMT: And as you're treating these people they're talking to a little bit about where they've come from. Tell me more about what you heard about that journey and why they had to go?

NABIHA ISLAM: I think the common refrain is that their houses are being burnt; their villages are being burnt down. They have absolutely no access to health care, to education, basic human rights. They've stayed there for as long as they could just eking out a meager living, oftentimes on farms. A few of my patients told me about working as tailors and a few others were business people, sort of working under the radar. They talk about a life of incredible oppression, but again a life in a place where they call home. These are not illegal Bengali immigrants as the Burmese government would like us all to believe.

AMT: Why do you go?

NABIHA ISLAM: I guess people ask me this a lot I don't really have one nicely packaged answer. I think a lot of us in Toronto and across Canada have a sort of multi hyphenated identities, and I think a lot of those identities for me intersect with identities of a lot of the Rohingya patients of mine. You know, as a woman, as someone of a South Asian background, as a Muslim there are sort of multiple ways in which I can view this as a struggle for solidarity with what is essentially known as the most persecuted minority in the world.

AMT: What are your personal ties to that particular region?

NABIHA ISLAM: So my parents emigrated from Bangladesh. I was born in Australia and raised in Toronto but I have visited many times.

AMT: So as you saw this unfolding you knew this part of the world and you wanted to do something.

NABIHA ISLAM: I knew this part of the world. And I also recognize the incredible importance of knowing the cultural context in which you're working. You know I was really troubled by a lot of the things that I saw in terms of what the media would often do, what other health care providers would do. Sometimes it felt that the Rohingya and their suffering was just another sort of photo op. There are very few instances where true consent, true informed consent was being taken.

AMT: Like what? Tell me what you're talking about.

NABIHA ISLAM: So you know I've alluded to how the Burmese military would strip these women of their burqas as a tactic to sort of essentially eliminate their will to live. And a lot of these journalists and other health care providers would go in taking pictures of these women, in a completely exposed and vulnerable situation. So you know there would be pictures of women's exposed pregnant bellies where they were not covered as they would want to be and they would not be told where these pictures were going. I went back and asked some of these women and they thought that, just other midwives, other female midwives would be seeing the pictures. They had no real understanding that these would go out into the world. So when we don't protect these women's rights, we're doing another form of what the Burmese military has done to them already.

AMT: It's an interesting point because the others would argue you have to show what has been done. You have to show the sheer volume of refugees that are destitute, who are in trouble, to make the world realize what the problem is, and how do you do that and get consent and explain - how do you do that?

NABIHA ISLAM: I think that's a very basic part of human ethics. We know this as physicians. I don't take pictures of my patients in a hospital setting without asking for permission. I don't understand how what should be considered universal ethics apply to the Western world but not when we're dealing with the most persecuted. most vulnerable minority in the world.

AMT: You're not talking about the great big wide shots. You're talking about the individual shots that really identify people.

NABIHA ISLAM: No I'm talking about the individual shots.

AMT: That identify people and they don't realize what's going on.

NABIHA ISLAM: Yes.

AMT: Yes. How are the local people in that area coping with this influx of refugees? What's the wider view?

NABIHA ISLAM: You know I've been consistently impressed and really just honestly blown away by the generosity of the local community. One of the things that I took away from crossing the Naf River was an instance where we had just arrived the day after a boat had capsized, killing almost 70 Rohingya men women and children. We were present for the burying of these bodies in the sort of Islamic tradition and we performed with them the Jenaza or the funeral prayer. The local community is doing all at a cost to themselves. You know they're out there digging these graves in this incredible sun, heat and nobody's providing compensation for them. They're doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. It was incredible to see how many people showed up for the funeral prayer and how many individuals in the local community feel it's important to bury the these men, women and children with dignity.

AMT: It's interesting when you see it at that level versus the governmental levels, about how individual people really want to help other people. You're talking about death on a massive scale, though. And you're talking about witnessing it close up every day. How do you process that? What do you think about it?

NABIHA ISLAM: You know I think I'm still processing it. It's not going to be something where I wake up one morning and suddenly I've reconciled all these horrible things that I've seen. But at the same time there's a constant refrain in my head that no matter how hard this is for me to see, I have no right to look away and I don't think the international community has a right to look away. And I think that's exactly what we're doing right now. We're saying we know there's an ethnic cleansing going on. We know there's a genocide happening but we're not going to do a thing to stop it. So I think it's really important to use that anger, that frustration and channel it into something positive. And I think a lot of this will be about putting pressure on our MPs and our governments to put more pressure on the Myanmar government. We've seen so little of that about placing sanctions on Burma for example. We're just condemning the acts and doing absolutely nothing about it.

AMT: And when you come home and you've only been home a short time, do you feel guilty that you're here? Like how do you how do you reconcile being in a place like Toronto when you know that's going on? And I'm not blaming you. I'm guessing you blame yourself.

NABIHA ISLAM: Yes. You know I think that's a common issue. A lot of us who do this kind of work will face. For me as a person of faith, I think there is a reason I was put here and I think there's a reason that I was put in this incredible place of privilege. And I think my job is to uphold that struggle to use that privilege for the benefit of minorities like the Rohingya.

AMT: And what do you then want us to understand about those camps?

NABIHA ISLAM: That's there's really no way that anyone who had a choice would choose to be in those refugee camps. It is the closest thing you can you can live through as an example of hell on earth. Our duty now, I think as Canadian citizens, is to put an end to this genocide. And I do very much think that's within our power as an international community. And I don't think we've done enough at this point. Everything that we're doing as NGOs, as aid workers, as physicians, as nurses is essentially putting a Band-Aid on a bleeding artery. We all know this but so few political actors are willing to truly do what it takes to end this genocide. And I think that's a shame. And we are failing our Rohingya brothers and sisters.

AMT: You see the Canadian government is just appointing Bob Rae as a special envoy to Myanmar. Are you hopeful that something will come of that?

NABIHA ISLAM: I think there's always room for hope. I hope this doesn't end up becoming just another talking point that we are able to exert real political pressure. And as I said that would include something like sanctions on Burma, not simply saying what you're doing is wrong.

AMT: What do you most fear for the people you met in those camps?

NABIHA ISLAM: That they will not be able to return home in any meaningful way. Bangladesh is one of the poorest nations in the world. It can barely support its own citizens. I fear for their ability to continue supporting the Rohingya as they have.

AMT: And that's where the rest of the world needs to step up.

NABIHA ISLAM: Yes definitely.

AMT: Thank you for sharing what you've learned and thank you for your work.

NABIHA ISLAM: Thank you for inviting me on the show.

AMT: Dr. Nabiha Islam is a resident in internal medicine at the University of Toronto. She's been treating Rohingya refugees at camps in Bangladesh, working with the hope Foundation for Women and Children of Bangladesh. And she joined us in our Toronto studio. Now we did contact the Myanmar embassy it directed us to previous statements by Myanmar's leader Aung San Suu Kyi as well as the country's national security adviser and Myanmar's national human rights commission. The statements blame summer attacks by a Rohingya insurgent group for the problems in the region. Myanmar's national security adviser describes reports of what is happening to the Rohingya people as “the propaganda tactics of terrorists” and “malicious and obscene unsubstantiated chatter”. Now once again we have a clip of photojournalists Roger LeMoyne who's working with UNICEF on the border between Myanmar and Bangladesh. You can see his photos on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent.

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One of the scenes that struck me the most in all this, there was this huge crowd of people are on their rice dike of the rice paddy and tall old man came striding forward towards the front. On his shoulders was it baby girl of about 18 months old.

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And he came right up to the front of the line until finally the border guards stopped and said he couldn't go any further. And then he just kind of crumpled his long utterly thin frame, just sort of collapsed onto the ground and his head hung down. And he pulled up this bottle of water he had and poured it over his head and just poured down over. And you could tell he was burning up the heat was so intense and he had been walking. And he drew the little girl into his body, to kind of shield the way mother would. It. Turns out that he had been separated from the family in the journey and it was just him and this baby girl now. With the girl in his arms, he lay down and seemed to fall asleep. Just before dusk, as I was preparing to leave, I saw him again with the girl his shoulders still. And I asked him again you know what he was going to do and he said he was going to go back through the whole line and look again for his daughter and his granddaughter to be reunited. And there was a moment when the light hit him. He was standing, again with the girl on his shoulders and he was so tall that sort of rose above the crowd. And the light was kind of raked over the crowd and the girl's face was illuminated and his face was lit by the setting sun.

AMT: Stay with us in our next half hour from rural Pakistan to front and center at last year's U.S. Democratic convention and the target of Donald Trump's attack. Goldstar father Khizr Khan has had a remarkable life. He's my guest in about 90 seconds. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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'I know what it feels like to live under authoritarian regimes': Khizr Khan, father of slain U.S. soldier

Guest: Khizr Khan

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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Donald Trump, you're asking Americans to trust you with their future. Let me ask you, have you even read the United States Constitution? [Cheers] I would gladly lend you my copy.

AMT: Last year's Democratic National Convention, Khizr Kahn and his pocket sized copy of the US Constitution became an overnight sensation. He and his wife Ghazala were on stage as a Gold Star family. Their son Captain Humayun Khan had died a decade earlier in Iraq, one of the first Muslim American soldiers to be killed in that war. He was posthumously awarded a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart and his parents proud Pakistani-Americans became a powerful symbol of opposition to then candidate Donald Trump's campaign rhetoric against Muslims and immigrants. The Khans would not be the last gold star family with whom Donald Trump would have a run in. There is much criticism and controversy today over the U.S. president's is a president's condolence calls to families of slain soldiers. And so it's an interesting moment for Khizr Khan to publish a memoir. His book is called An American Family: A Memoir of Hope and Sacrifice and it tells the story of his journey from milking cows on his family's farm in rural Pakistan, to becoming a Harvard educated lawyer, to sharing Hillary Clinton stage in front of the world. Khizr Kahn is in our New York studio. Hello.

KHIZR KHAN: Hello Anna Maria. Good to be with you.

AMT: Can you take us back to that moment we just heard from your speech at the Democratic National Convention. What do you remember about being up on that stage?

KHIZR KHAN: Anna Maria, there were just amazing sentiments but one part that overwhelmed us, at that moment and prior to then and after that, was that we were paying tribute to our son Captain Humayun Khan. In fact we were paying tribute to best of America. He was made in America. He was the embodiment of the goodness of this country. We were paying tribute to him by invoking our founding document. There is a story after a story prior to getting up to that stage. We were not wanting to go to that stage. We were reluctant. We were advised not to go to such event. We are a humble modest private people but after the most bigoted statement of Donald Trump where he says “I will ban all Muslims. All Hispanics are bad, criminals. Women are deserving of not equal respect. Judges are partial.” Wherever after that statement, we would go to attend our families gathering, their children, their family, their friends, small children, elementary school, middle school children would come to me that “we hear that this person is going to be running for the president's office if he becomes president will be thrown out of here?” I would hearten them. I would read them the Constitution. I would give them the example of how Captain Humayun Khan stood for the values of this country.

AMT: And when Mr. Trump criticized you and your wife Ghazala, saying she had not been allowed to speak, What did you think?

KHIZR KHAN: This was Donald Trump on display and his ignorance and his arrogance and his lack of empathy was on full display when he did that, without knowing how elegant, how eloquent, accomplished my better half had been throughout her life. Captain Humayun Khan was a replica of Ghazala and Ghazala’s character caring, loving. She was in fact the one that added to my speech. She was the one that asked me not to include the very first line of my speech was “I wrote that speech. I am not plagiarizing Michelle Obama's words” and you know what I meant by that she removed that line that sentence she said no the dignity of the moment doesn't call for that.

AMT: President Trump is under fire now for his initial silence on the four American soldiers killed earlier in the year, and for having reportedly told one of the soldiers’ widows that her husband knew what he was signing up for. How do you react to this ongoing controversy?

KHIZR KHAN: First my deepest condolences for the families of my four brave sons that died protecting us. Under these circumstances, under these most difficult circumstances, the call of the office where Donald Trump sits is to use measured words, to make sure that every word uttered is comforting. His advisors, I blame them. They know his faults. Therefore under these difficult circumstances, proper words should have been placed in front of him so there would be no misunderstanding in the hearts and minds of those who were hitting him.

AMT: Tell us more about your son Humayun. When he originally told you he wanted to join the army. How conflicted were you?

KHIZR KHAN: We were very much conflicted because whenever a person, a young person, joins a large organization person loses the control of where you would work, where you would live, what time you will go to work how life would be. Such were the concerns. But then he told us something that remains with us. He said: “Look whenever I am with the cadets these are the most honorable people.” When your grown child is telling you this, which parent would deny for that person to join those whom he considered most honorable, most distinguished. So we agreed reluctantly as concerned parents.

AMT: And of course he was in Germany. He was in Kosovo, but then when he was being dispatched to Iraq, what did you tell him?

KHIZR KHAN: He came to visit us and we did have that conversation. I have been against America's involvement in Iraq because I'm a student of history. I know a little bit about the conflict that has existed in that part of the world for centuries and centuries. And I could see that America's involvement will not serve American interests. So I expressed that this was his answer. He said “Baba” - he called me as a father - he said “Baba, look, I am a military officer. I don't think like that I follow the orders. My main responsibility is to protect my men and women. I am going there to do that.” And he was true to his word. He was true to the oath of office. He took care for others, and that is what our sentiments were. And that is what his sentiments were.

AMT: He lost his life serving his country. It is a country you fell in love with through the Constitution. What is it about the U.S. Constitution that spoke to you long before you got to the US here?

KHIZR KHAN: That was 1972. I saw the very first document I saw. I was in second year of law school and I took a course called comparative study of the Constitutions of the world and on the top of the material was, the first page said, declaration of independence. And I was born and I had lived my initial days in colonized part of the world, meaning subcontinent, and that word declaration was amazingly amazingly all aspiring to me at that moment I said “Is there a nation? Are there people that declare their independence? Wow!” So I read that and that was the moment that I fell in love with the spirit. And my most favorite a declaration of independence has thirteen hundred and thirty eight words. It has 18 grievances. My grievance, most favorite grievances, is number seven that talks about - I wish among your audience are those that are making immigration policies. I wish they are listening. Let me read you I have my pocket Constitution and it is for such purposes that I keep this. Let me read you a grievance number seven. It says :he has endeavored” - he meaning the king – “has endeavored to prevent the population of these states for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners, refusing to pass others to encourage their migration here,” meaning that we were complaining that immigration was not being allowed because immigrants bring dynamism to society. The spirit of immigration is dynamic.

AMT: I'm going to stop you right there because you just pulled that constitution out of your pocket. Is it always with you?

KHIZR KHAN: It always is since 2005. Our cadets used to come to pay tribute to Captain Humayun Khan. I used to give them a book as a token of my appreciation. Senator McCain's book titled Why Courage Matters amazingly is inspiring book. And the reason for my affection towards that book is because this was the last book that I sent to Captain Humayun Khan in May of 2004, which he read because I asked him: “Did you read the book I sent, Why Courage Matter?” He said “yes” he has read his other friends are reading it now. So I used to offer them that book and that would cost me 18 $20 a book. And it got very expensive and 20 cadets are coming. So I was looking for something more reasonable and renewing my bar license on ABA Web site. I saw advertisements “U.S. Constitution pocket size 99 cents.” So I thought “this I can afford.” So I ordered 50 of them and I had been keeping them ever since. I begin to place it in my pocket because of such references whenever there would be conversation about us Constitution, about Bill of Rights.

AMT: It's interesting because you have this great love for the U.S. Constitution but you make a point that one of the other reasons, that you so wanted to become an American, was because of the Americans you met the people you worked with along the way. Tell me about Allan.

KHIZR KHAN: I lose my composure whenever I think of Allan and his wife Lisa in Dubai. I had just arrived empty handed. I had slept on the floor with my suitcase under my - as my pillow and my towel as my bed sheet, in a bare fold wall room that Kirby was kind enough to rent to me with the deferred payment of rent, because I had nothing. After spending two days in Dubai, I went to show up reported for duty for this company that Allan work. He introduces me to my work, spending a few minutes he looks at me he said: “Khizr you look really tired. Where you been staying?” So I told him that I'm staying at a room that I have rented. He immediately realized. He picked up the phone and he called this somebody. In about half an hour or so, his wife Lisa showed up. He introduced me to her and then he says to me he said: “Khizr come with us.” He took me to one of the apartments that was fully furnished. [Sobbing] Everything that I had never dreamed of having in my life was there; bed sheets, towels, refrigerator with food, tea, bread everything, spoons, forks. And I looked at that place amazing, amazing. Very first gesture of this person, this family, both of them bought was so kind. They left and I just brok in tears what did I do to deserve all this kindness. This is one human being towards another human being. He did not owe me anything. I was his employee. That was the first interaction with Americans that I had.

AMT: And that kind of interaction continued even after you moved to the States. Now I'm struck by the fact that you got introduced to country music in Texas.

KHIZR KHAN: Yes we were so blessed. When we first arrived I had rented a $200 one bedroom apartment in Houston. I had two children by then. When they arrived we got into the apartment. Open was bringing bags from the car. Our neighbors saw – Paulette - saw us moving in. And we closed the door. Children were put to bed. They were tired and we were unpacking. There's a knock on the door and Paulette is standing outside. When I opened the door and holding two bags and she said: “I just saw that you have two small children and you just moved in here and here are some things children may like.” And it was milk and bread and some cookies and some water and milk in those two grocery bags. I reluctantly accepted, thanked her and I looked at Ghazala said: “Look. The generosity, the kindness that we had dreamed of, that we had heard of, that we had experienced by the hands of America in Dubai. Look these are the people. This is what happens when people live under the light and grace of these values that are enshrined in these documents. This is how their character.” She did not ask us: “Tell us which country you come from?” She did not ask us: “You don't look like me.” She did not ask: “What faith you practice?” It was basic humanity basic human dignity basic respect and courtesy towards another fellow being. And we decide this event after event of our life, under these tumultuous time during these most divisive time where we are so divided, yet with hope.

AMT: This is in sharp contrast to what was happening in Pakistan at the time when you moved to America.

KHIZR KHAN: I have lived under two martial laws. So I know what it feels to live under authoritarian regimes. Newspapers, media outlets were burnt. We will read no newspaper for three days, four days because newspaper published an article criticizing the General.

AMT: This was General Al Haq.

KHIZR KHAN: Yes, But look at the similarities. Look at the similarities of current administration maligning the media. Disrespect towards press, the fourth pillar of American democracy. Look at the similarity. My living through those, I am testament to those atrocities and the similarities of the actions of this newly minted current administration.

AMT: And of course you are a Gold Star father. Your son Captain Humayun Khan is in Iraq in June 8th of 2004. He's supposed to be off that day. What happened to him?

KHIZR KHAN: He was off that day on June 8^th. It was Tuesday. Prior to then on Mother's Day he had called his mother and us and he wished her happy Mother's Day. And Ghazala probably had mother’s instincts she told him on my own don't be a hero. Protect yourself and Humayun assured her that “mother I am responsible for the protection of others, so don't worry”. That was the last Mother's Day conversation with [unintelligible] Humayun had. On Tuesday June 8, he was to come on duty at noon. He came 8:00 in the morning to make sure that the entry and exit at the doors of the camp in Baqubah, Iraq was being done in an organized fashion. There were about 300 civilian Iraqis coming to work. They provided us services within the camp and, scores of American soldiers were leaving for work that morning after breakfast. And as he comes out to make sure everything is going smoothly, he notices a fast coming car, a yellow car, and he begins to wave at the car. And he was trained military officer. He knew the danger what was coming this way that this could be a lost driver. That is doesn't know where to stop, how to come. He could have ordered his men on the walls of the camp to shoot that cab. But then he knew that this may be an innocent person, driver coming. So he moved forward and we are told that he took about 10 steps with his hand raised trying to stop that yellow car coming towards the gates of the camp. I'm sure that as that vehicle got closer to the gates of the camp, we are told he stood straight with his hand extended trying to stop the vehicle and causing that vehicle to prematurely detonate. Very few were injured but that day, only Captain Humayaun Khan lost his life protecting others.

AMT: It was a suicide bomber in that car.

KHIZR KHAN: It was a suicide bomber with about, we were told, approximately 200 pound of ammunition caused that to detonate prematurely.

AMT: What do you remember about getting the news that he was gone?

KHIZR KHAN: Yes. Only parents can imagine this. We were blessed to have him for 27 years. We remain under the grace and the light that he left. Ghazala always says whenever somebody mentions him that Humayun lit a candle and rest of the world continues to light their candle from his grace of caring for others. That was his character. One of the letters that came and I read it every now and then. That letter was written by one of his fellow soldier. He said “all these medals and all these praises and all these stars and all these mansions and respect and dignity towards Humayun, please take it back. Give me my friend.” So sometime all of this is necessary. All of this is necessary but the hole that losing a member of the family creates in your heart that never fills. First few years Ghazala would not entered the room where Humayun’s picture stands, where Humayun’s pictures on the wall. Only mothers would know. I cannot know. As a father I do empathize with Ghazala but only mothers would know, Gold Star mother anyway. Since then any time Gonzalez is asked: “How do you feel about Humayun and all?” And she says this: “Why do these people ask me that question? He's not gone anywhere. He's with me all the time. Why do they ask that question?” She hasn't lost him. He hasn't gone anywhere for her. Only mothers can and can understand that sentiment. She did not enter that room so slowly and gradually we had to encourage her. We had to bring her every now and then to into that room, to have a conversation, to visit with a guest and all, so that she will have strength enough to continue and begin to become familiar with that room and a portrait of Humayun.

AMT: After President Trump took office. Have your feelings for the United States changed?

KHIZR KHAN: My feeling, my sentiments, deep down have reaffirmed. This is anomaly. This is a momentary distraction. This moment has come to unite us. So I am heartened. I am encouraged. The reason you would ask “why you say so?” I give you an example that when forced Muslim ban was announced. Look at what took place on airports. People poured in in support of those that were affected by that unconstitutional, illegal Muslim ban. Look what happened in Charlottesville Virginia when two dozen or so racist carrying Nazi flag showed up. I was there. I watched that with my own eyes. But then look what happened on that Wednesday. The entire Charlottesville showed up with children, with families to show the respect and dignity towards the values of these founding documents. That is what heartens me. That is what keeps me going. And I know with whom I am speaking. My conversation is not complete up until I say this, whenever they ask me about the immigration laws of United States, I say this in one sentence: “Look to the north. Look to Canada how it treats its immigrants.” Not that that is the perfect place. There are faults there as well but the name for an immigrant in Canada is New Canadian. That speaks that - those two words speak to the mentality of the nation of its immigration policies, of its immigration laws. New Canadians, not aliens, not immigrants but New Canadians.

AMT: I was going to ask you if you felt at risk more or if you felt safe given some of the changes we see the efforts in the United States and the bands that keep getting stopped by the courts. But you're telling me are more determined, that you see another America, despite that.

KHIZR KHAN: There comes a time in each and every person's life when that person has to get up and do more, and then do some more because the stakes are higher. And we all need to be heartened that majority of America, majority of the world stands with fairness, stands with dignity, stands with human dignity enshrined in our Constitution.

AMT: So you're telling me that you're not only, not solely quoting that Constitution you are using it to try to win back the America that you fell in love with.

KHIZR KHAN: I use this line all the time. These rights may be listed as in-alienable in the Constitution of United States, but these rights are not self executory. It is the duty of the citizen to make them executory. These rights are written in the books but to implement them, guarantee their implementation, it is the duty of each and every citizen to stand up when the moment comes.

AMT: Khizr Khan. Thank you for speaking with me today.

KHIZR KHAN: Thank you.

AMT: Khizr Khan's new book is An American Family: A Memoir of Hope and Sacrifice. He joined us from our studio in New York City. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio One for q. George Clooney joins Tom Power to talk about going behind the camera to direct his new film Suburbia Con. Remember you can take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app it's free from the App Store or Google Play. And remember if you are ready to weigh in on what you're hearing on The Current today, you can tweet us we are @TheCurrentCBC find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and lots of people weighing in about our first half hour. We thought it was important that you hear different views on an issue that is important to so many people. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Tuesday October 24, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

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