Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2016

The Current Transcript for October 3, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: All right. Everybody, everyone count with me: 10

CHILDREN [Together]: 11 12 13 14 15 16

VOICE: 17

CHILDREN: Yaaaay.

VOICE: All right.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: The exuberance sounds of a primary class where the aura of learning comes right through your speakers. But what happens to the kids in that class who are non-vocal. Whose physical and cognitive challenges affect how they learn, how their teachers adjusted their needs, how their schools include them in the classroom. There are an estimated 5.1 million elementary and secondary students attending an estimated fifteen thousand five hundred schools in Canada, overseen by 375 plus school boards across 10 provinces and three territories. Those are big numbers, but it all comes down to every child; decisions on how child is educated, how our children are encouraged to grow and flourish in our wider community, reflect our values as a society and our imagination for the future their future. So how are we doing? Over the next 90 minutes we are asking how the public school systems across Canada are doing in the inclusion of children with special learning needs in regular classrooms. You will hear a discussion in our first half hour and in our second and third parts of the program we want to hear from you. Call us toll free 1 8 8 8 4 1 6 8 3 3 3. Today we are devoting our entire program to the issue of the education, special needs and the public school systems required to provide them. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is a special edition of The Current.

Back To Top »

Is the public school system working for kids with special needs?

Guest: Sheila Bennett.

SOUNDCLIP

GRACE FUSCALDO: Hi. Okay. My name is Grace I am 8 years old. And I love art. Also, love doing science. I like playing with my sisters and sometimes my brothers. And I love coloring.

AMT: That is great Fuscaldo in Huntsville Ontario, and today's program is all about her and the thousands of other Canadian children who learn differently, as she does, while going to school each day in our country's public schools.

SOUNDCLIP

GRACE FUSCALDO: I have troubles. Sometimes like if one of the teachers are talking fast I don't pick it up. I need them to talk slower. Do you have troubles doing that? It's just the numbers they look like black things and sometimes I get mixed up on which way they go. But sometimes I ask for help. But I really get [unintelligible] with myself. I used to but now I do not want to get help because it embarrasses me and I do not want kids to know it, that I have dyslexia, umm because I do not know if they will laugh at me. So, yes.

AMT: Well, whether it's dyslexia, learning disabilities or ADHD, physical or mental disability or even giftedness. When it comes to public schools and kids who learn differently, the guiding principle of the day is inclusiveness and that means bringing everyone together, children with and without special needs learning in the same environment. It is an idea that is easy to get excited about. It is not always an easy one to get right. Here is Grace's mom Jeanie talking about her daughter's Individualized Education Plan or IEP.

SOUNDCLIP

JEANIE: Her classroom teacher knows that we're waiting on an IEP. So unofficially they're not really allowed to do anything different within the classroom. We're still waiting on the official language but of course the school board won't use dyslexia. They'll use specific language disorder, disability because they refuse to use dyslexia. The way that I see it is just like it is nothing to be ashamed of and I feel like if you don't use what it is, then it causes the kids to think that there is something to be ashamed of.

AMT: Well this is a conversation we began here on The Current about two weeks ago, when we spoke with other parents such as Grace's, trying to navigate their kids with special needs through the public school system. Today we want to hear your stories. If you are a parent, an educator, a student or a graduate with special needs, get in touch. The toll free number to call is 1 8 8 8 4 1 6 8 3 3 3. We will be airing your calls beginning in our next half hour and then throughout the rest of the program. Here's what some of the parents we spoke with earlier had to say about their children and inclusive classrooms.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: My kids are incredible. They're creative and resourceful. But the feeling that we've had in the last couple of years has been challenging. And when you repeatedly hear things from educators like: “Ryan is his own worst enemy,” a kid with a learning disability is not his own worst enemy. The learning dis- It's not even a disability. I hate that word. I think it's a learning difference. The way his brain works is what makes him who he is. I think that resources from the Ministry of Education are paramount. If so many times we have heard: “We don't have the resources for that,” with these big bug eyes in the meetings and the other thing I think is a really big paradigm shift. I think people think they know what these disabilities are. They have this idea in their mind of what they are. Autism is not Rain Man.

VOICE 2: We don't put all the emphasis on the teachers to be able to do everything because they can't. But it's the support around that. So there's limited training for the EAs and limited training for the resource teachers and there needs to be some sort of format that helps these kids with their behavior and their diagnosis, so they can get the education that they deserve because that's the biggest thing. Like my son doesn't have a lot of behavior issues at all. But him just sitting in the classroom quietly isn't helping him to learn anything.

VOICE 1: The people at the top need to hear this. It can't just be the parents. Like we are all that parent we are all that parent and our kids are all that kid. We don't want to be there. We don't want to be there.

AMT: The voices of parents of children with special needs, talking about their experiences in public schools. This is the focus of our entire special edition of The Current today and we'll be getting to your calls in our next half hour. But first let's meet another family at home, during the morning rush to get out the door. The CBC's Michael Tymchuk met up with Shana Dekker.

SOUNDCLIP

SHANA DEKKER: I am Shana Dekker. We are in Nanaimo. My son is Quinn, he's in grade 6 at Rock City Elementary School. School is a struggle for Quinn. Quinn has ADHD. He's on the autism spectrum. He's got learning disability in reading, writing and maths, and some anxiety.

MICHAEL TYMCHUK: What is it that he likes about school?

QUINN: Well I like it because everybody is super nice and I am very popular. That is really nice somebody to lift me up when I fall down.

SHANA DEKKER: Well because of his learning disabilities he requires one to one support for classwork. Anything with pen and paper here requires an education assistant to work with him and there aren't enough in our school.

MICHAEL TYMCHUK: So how come school turns out not too good some days?

QUINN: Because I just don't get the right amount of help. I want to try to get the best I can

[Unintelligible conversation]

QUINN: I want to be a marine biologist when I grow up. I'm just super interested in the ocean. I want to- I like every single sea creature. Probably have to know what is chemistry, science, maths.

MICHAEL TYMCHUK: What are you doing?

QUINN: I unplug and stick it naturally.

MICHAEL TYMCHUK: You are quite good at that.

QUINN: Thank you.

MICHAEL TYMCHUK: How do you do the culture with Playgo sticks?

UINN: They look really good.

SHANA DEKKER: Give me a hug. I love you.

QUINN: Love you too.

SHANA DEKKER: Okay, have fun. Goodbye.

QUINN: Bye mom.

[Dog barks]

MICHAEL TYMCHUK: Well, he never stops.

SHANA DEKKER: He has got to [unintelligible]. And it will be at 30,000 steps at the end of the day.

MICHAEL TYMCHUK: Wow.

SHANA DEKKER: He needs to be in the public school system with his peers. He does great with all the stuff they do. The music, the gym. In the classroom he like loves to learn. Let’s say - He's in grade six now but he's doing grade three maths. And yesterday I asked him about math, what did he do. He has his own work of grade three maths. And I asked: “Did anybody help you?” and he said: “Well no, because we didn't have an EA and the teacher was busy. I tried to figure it out.” So that's what we're missing.

AMT: Shana Dekker and her son Quinn. Well we've also heard from teachers in recent days here on The Current for their perspective on what is happening in the classroom. If you're a teacher, parent, student or grad or anyone else with a story to tell about special needs and our public schools, please give us a call today. The toll free number is 1 8 8 8 4 1 6 8 3 3 3. I will get to your calls in our next half hour. Here's some of what the classroom educators we brought together last week had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: The teachers are very much trying to engage all students, but they're coming from such diverse experiences and so much demands on their attention that it is extremely difficult to engage all of the students who have - virtually every single one of them has a different need - and trying to hold all their interests to explain things in a way that they can all comprehend, or to be expected to diversify a lesson to meet that range of needs. I diversify a lesson one student might have completed the lesson to the best of their ability in two minutes, where another student in the class will require two to three hours. What then?

VOICE 2: I have taught for 20 years now. I've taught in lower elementary. In an elementary school however where we really work as a team, I'd have to say I have had many many positive experiences. For us at our school, it's about looking at each individual and seeing how we can then look at our curriculum and plan so that each learner can be reflected in that curriculum. It's also about educating the children in our class to value difference and value that we all have a different path.

VOICE 3: I guess the question is what is reasonable to expect from a classroom teacher. Can they be a classroom teacher who can teach math and language, arts and social studies and all of those things and also be an expert in ADHD and behavior and anxiety and depression and all the different things you face. Is it reasonable to expect that the classroom teacher can be all of those things? I think it might be that the classroom teacher can implement good plans with support of other people that might be better experts at that.

AMT: Well that's part of how educating children with special needs looks from the teacher's perspective. We'll be hearing much more from teachers, parents and experts over our next hour and a half today. Before we do let's hear from one more kid at the end of his school day. The CBC's Ben Silcox caught up with Catherine Derry and her son Robbie in St. John, New Brunswick. Robbie.

SOUNDCLIP

[Chatter]

CATHERINE DERRY: Can you say hi to Ben?

ROBBIE: Hi.

BEN SILCOX: Hiey Robbie. How are you doing?

[Sound: Engine]

ROBBIE: What I am going to need is water, Mommy.

CATHERINE DERRY: Okay. I will get you some.

ROBBIE: SO what are your questions? I got suspended one, quite a few times last year. A kid beat me up for [unintelligible] and I hit him back. He did not get any punishment while I got suspended for seven days and put on half days, for a few months.

BEN SILCOX: How was your day today?

ROBBIE: Bad. Because they took away computer privileges, the resource teacher. Because I accidentally deleted one of their [unintelligible]. And I was to use it for a few months. But [unintelligible] day and they said I couldn't use it until I stopped misbehaving and acting like a baby and I couldn't. Umm what is it called, like use it until I know how act like a mature young teenager. It really hurt my feelings. That was an accident.

CATHERINE DERRY: While New Brunswick is a fully inclusive province I don't really think that the schools have the proper resources and staffing to make that effectively work for all students with special needs. We're in regular communication about things and we work out new plans and things but sometimes things are limited by resources. Not everybody is going to have the same knowledge base on autism. With kids like him, there will be some people that will click better than others. So sometimes it's about finding the right fit and getting a good relationship with somebody that helps work out problems sometimes.

ROBBIE: It is my favourite game [unintelligible]

BEN SILCOX: What do you like about it?

ROBBIE: It is nostalgic.

BEN SILCOX: Tell me about what you hope high school be like.

ROBBIE: Really good, so I can go to college. I want to do a job in computers and stuff.

AMT: Well that is Robbie and his mom Catherine Derry, talking to the CBC's Ben Silcox in St. John, New Brunswick. Well we have a special guest in studio to take us through today's conversation and get it going. Sheila Bennett is a professor and an associate dean of professional undergraduate student services in the Faculty of Education at Brock University in St. Catherine's Ontario. She is also a former special education teacher. She will be with me in our studio as we continue on this program today and take your calls. Sheila Bennett welcome. Hello.

SHEILA BENNETT: Hello.

AMT: When we hear the word inclusion what does it mean in practice?

SHEILA BENNETT: When we talk about inclusion in terms of education, inclusion can be broadly interpreted as everybody belonging or everybody being included. But in education it has sort of a long history, or if you want to think about it, a short history. Certainly you know hundreds of years ago anyone with a disability would not attend school. What we've seen in more recent years, particularly in the United States for example around the civil rights movement, we saw a movement towards the notion that every single person belongs and has should have access to education, to employment, to being part of our society. So the influences of inclusion, the early influences of inclusion came from that sort of rooting. In a school, if you were to ask someone like Warren Porter from New Brunswick, he would say “it means that every kid gets to go to school, in their neighborhood school, with their brothers and sisters, with their friends and be able to attend at an age appropriate level.”

AMT: And inclusion in terms of special needs means what?

SHEILA BENNETT: It means exactly the same thing. It means all children get to be included in school. And one of the things that will probably come up as a recurring theme, it certainly doesn't make the discussions that I have as an educator as an individual, is this notion that there's some sort of dividing line between kids who are identified as having special needs and other children. And I think you know I was listening to one of the wonderful teachers that you have on a while ago. And she was talking about the notion that we have to stop thinking about those children and that group, and really start thinking about all children and all groups. So, various children bring different types of needs to schools. Children come with personal problems they come with athletic prowess. They come with musical talent or lack of musical talent. They come with all kinds of personality profiles and learning styles. It has to do with the history of special ed because of the beginnings of special ed being based on a medical model rooted down in that notion of fixing and curing. We have this notion that special ed is this place where we have to make somebody better. And in fairness to those of us who were young and learning at the university level that time that's the tradition that I was steeped in, this notion that you could carry a box and you could do some tests and you could fix somebody. We've moved on that notion of fixing to a recognition that all children have all types of needs and some people need support at particular times and other people need support at all the times, and that support might look different and it needs to flow and it needs to be able to reach all the kids that need it when they need it.

AMT: And so I hear what you're saying and that sounds good in theory but most schools are based on sort of an average model of learning. So when it comes to special needs there actually are definitions, are there not? Like when we talk about special needs what are we talking about?

SHEILA BENNETT: So when we talk about special needs it varies a province to province and within the territories. But generally speaking if you were to look at a model like Ontario, which I'm most familiar with, we have what's called a categorical model. So we identify special needs such as learning disability or developmental disability, physical, cognitive those types of needs. We define them and then we link it to funding. So it becomes a bit of a complex problem when you start thinking about who would you set funding cut off and who doesn't reach that funding cut off. Within lots of promises that don't have definitions that work in that way are funded miles that work and where there is some flexibility. But even in a province like Ontario there's flexibility in terms of the special education funding envelope so school boards can get an envelope of money that's you know “to find children with special needs” and it needs to be spent with children that are in those categorical models. But it can be spent in either a very segregated constricted type of way which is sort of specifically one to one, or can be spent in a more fluid way which looks at improving and enhancing education all across the system, while making sure that the students with special needs, the children with physical social, behavioral, cognitive difficulties are getting the support they need within the context of schooling.

AMT: What does the research show in terms of how kids with special needs do in an inclusive, in a regular classroom?

SHEILA BENNETT: That's a really good question. I'm glad you asked. So you know when people talk about the research on inclusion it's pretty broad and different countries, and we've looked pretty much around the world certainly, even across Canada and the US depending on the district, different terminologies get used. You know in your intro we heard a mom talk about dyslexia versus learning disability, versus learning difficulties. So the language can be interpreted in different ways in different places. We also find that people will use one study so they'll look at a study on hearing impairment for example and say “see that's what's happening in inclusion or developmental disability.” But when you look at the at the literature in a broad swath and you try to make generalizations about what it says, what it says is that students - and this is in general - in general students with special needs who are in high inclusive situations, high inclusive classroom settings do better. There's a great study, a pan Canadian study, it's referred to as the PAOs study and it looked at stats Canada data. It actually said that in high inclusion settings, regardless of disability, kids were healthier happier wanted to come to school more and learned better and had more friends.

AMT: What about kids who are not considered special needs kids? How do they fare?

SHEILA BENNETT: That's another excellent question and parents often ask that question. So as any parent when they see a child in the classroom who may be, from the parents perspective, demanding more attention there's a sort of sometimes a sense that you know “maybe my child is not getting the full depth and breadth of the curriculum or learning that they might get.” But the research overall shows that the academic, and this would be based on multiple factors such as test scores in standardized assessment plus anecdotal evidence plus more broad studies of we look at achievement. Students in regular class in inclusive classrooms do not do worse academically. They do the same or better. They don't do better necessarily because of inclusion but they do the same. There are no differences that we see across the literature in achievement in inclusion settings. What we do find Anna Maria is we find that there's higher social ethic skills.

AMT: Okay we'll talk a little bit more about that when we come back in our next half hour Sheila Bennett is a Professor and the Associate Dean of Professional Undergraduate & Student Services in the Faculty of Education at Brock University in St. Catherines, Ontario. She's a former special education teacher. She will be with me over the next hour to help answer your questions about special education. So stay with us. Get ready to join the conversation right after the news. Our entire program today is about kids with special needs and our public schools. We want to hear from you. We'll be going to your calls right after the news. If you have some opinions, you want to share part of your story. Call us the number 1 8 8 8 4 1 6 8 3 3 3. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti this is a special edition of The Current. It's a national call in. Go ahead call us. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, it is time to hear from you our topic for the entire program today is education and special needs. How well are our public schools doing for kids who learn differently? We'll be getting to your calls over this next hour. We want to hear from you. The toll free number to call is 1 8 8 8 4 1 6 8 333 and we'll go right away to our caller. Mary Ellen is in Ottawa. Hello, Mary Allan.

MARRY ALLAN: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: How are our public schools doing for kids who learn differently in your view?

MARRY ALLAN: I think we could be doing better. I think that actually I got lucky. I have three. I'm a mother of three grown children of various abilities, disabilities. And in the 80s and 90s here in Ontario we had a lot of segregated learning disability classrooms. Now they have gone totally out of fashion. It's a bad word, it's politically incorrect to say that they're a good thing, but I do think they're a good thing. I think that if children are identified early as our son was, we paid for private testing. If you get kids identified in those primary grades and get them the intensive help that they need and I think segregated classrooms are a good thing. Even if you had them for half a day and then by the end of grade six, grade seven, then there may be totally integrated in a regular classrooms and they can go on and be successful. I think that inclusive, totally inclusive classrooms, they're just not filling the needs. I've also after I was home for 13 full years with our kids I went back as a special education teacher. And I can see the results. We get kids coming in in grade seven and eight. Some of them can barely read and it's really hard to do catch up then. And I think we need to concentrate on the primary years and get them then. And I think that's the best way to go.

AMT: Okay. Mary Allan, thank you for calling in. That is Mary Allan in Ottawa. Sarah is on the line from Hamilton. Hello Sarah.

SARAH: Hi there.

AMT: Hi. How is our public school system working for kids who learn differently? What's your view? What's your experience?

SARAH: Well I think, as somebody who has cerebral palsy who attended the TDSB, some of the things I noticed that these [unintelligible] barriers that were caused from lack of funding. I remember giving a delegation to the Special Education Advisory Committee back in 2005, where they cut over three million dollars and we see an increase in cuts to special education departments across the board. I also think Kathleen Wynne is failing students with disabilities in the sense that she has promised an education standard for two years and we've still not seen anything. And another issue that I've noticed is the lack of sexual health curriculum and information for students with disabilities. Well sex curriculum in general.

AMT: Right. Right. So you went through the Toronto system. You're saying the public system in Toronto.

SARAH: Specifically yes.

AMT: You are out of the school now? You've graduated? Where are you?

SARAH: Yes I live in Hamilton. I attended McMaster University. I just graduated in April actually.

AMT: Okay, how much help did you get? What was missing in your experience through that public system?

SARAH: So, I did receive some help but I noticed that with educational assistance that some point I'd have to argue my way through school. To argue that “no I didn't need to stay a fifth year. No I was able to go to postsecondary. No I could study what I wanted to do.” And so I think at sometimes the departments cab be limiting in terms of teaching students to ask for help versus advocating for rights. And I think part of that comes from a lack of [unintelligible]. Students with disabilities don't understand what exactly their fundamental rights are and what they have access to and we're framed to treat it like systems, school system, as though we are a burden and that we're asking for help, which makes it harder to advocate for a needs in the school system. You'll often see support for parents to advocate for student but not for students themselves.

AMT: To advocate for themselves. So you had to argue to go to high school and you had to argue to go to university, you're telling me.

SARAH: I had to argue to go to university and not stay a fifth year.

AMT: So what do you want teachers, educators to know to learn from what you have gone through? How do you want to see them treating kids coming up behind you?

SARAH: I think that some of the issues and I'm highlighting can be rectified by teachers teaching students how to self-advocate; he difference between asking for help and saying “this is what I need in order to succeed.” I don't think students going through the school system publicly have a better understanding of the difference between those two things. And I also think what I want to see is this is disability justice curriculum and sexual health curriculum for students with disability, because we don't know our history, if we don't understand how far people with disabilities come in Ontario and in Canada, in Ontario the last institution for people with disabilities was closed in 2003. If we don't understand how far we've come to have our rights, just like eugenics and various conversations that no one wants to talk about, how are we going to know how far we can go, right?

AMT: Uh hmm. And tell me more about the lack of sexual health curriculum.

SARAH: So 83 percent of women with disabilities are likely to be sexually assaulted at least once in their lifetime in Canada. And that's never really talked about. An intimate partner violence, domestic violence, emotional abuse, financial abuse are all things that are skyrocketed in the disability community. In Hamilton too, we're seeing women in intellectual disabilities in human traffic and these are all conversations that are not being talked about. And I think part of the problem is, and this isn't the solution, but part of the issue is women with disabilities or people with disabilities in general don't have the opportunity to learn about sexual health until their mid-20s. There are studies showing that we tune it out in high school and don't really learn it until later on in life, because we don't think the curriculum applies to us, let alone the fact that some students with disabilities are just given spares because some staff don't have the capability and it's not their fault to accommodate, in some cases, for students with disabilities in gym class. So I think there are a variety of issues specific to the lack of sexual health curriculum for students with disabilities, or these conversations that are putting many students with disabilities and women with disabilities at risk.

AMT: And you talk about self-advocating. So how were you inspired to self-advocate? How did that come about?

SARAH: Well my mom actually she taught me to be very vocal about my sort of experiences as a person with a disability. So somebody would come up to her and ask what was wrong with me or why I was walking differently she would say “ask my daughter. She's standing right there” and I was four years old. I remember having to sort of try to articulate and explain that myself. And so I started from then, but the moment I realized that systems around me weren't built for me and I would be my place to sort of speak up where possible was when I was in grade 11. There was a there was a kid in my school who wanted to attend the Typical School of the Arts. And he couldn't because the Typical School of the Arts didn't have an elevator. And I was so angry at that time that I wanted to go delegate at the TDSB special education advisor committee. And I remember Chris Bolton who, he's not chair anymore, but he laughed in my face and he said “Who do you think you are? You don't have speaking right here.” Yada yada yada. And I was 17 years old. I didn't really understand the structure of those committees. All I knew was that somebody wanted to attend a school and he couldn't because the school wasn't self-sufficient and so I at that moment I realized that it's going to be on us. It is not going to be on anyone else to sort of push to change the world around us so that it fits our needs.

AMT: Well Sarah, Sheila Bennett is listening in here. And I think she has a question for you as well. Go ahead Sheila.

SHEILA BENNETT: First of all you touched on so many crucial points that are so important to have in this discussion. What you are really talking about is what we would talk about in terms of charity based versus rights based inclusion. Charity based is “oh I'll do it. You know it's nice. Aren't I wonderful. Look I took this child on this field trip.” Whereas rights based inclusion is, every child has a right to do all these things period. And we seem to be straddling that line somehow and you're finding your voice of advocacy in that. And how are you finding that journey?

SARAH: It is going ok so far. I mean I'm a little skeptical of this new federal act being rolled out by the Liberal government because of the cabinet shuffle. The minister who was responsible to create the federal accessibility act is no longer the minister that, it is someone else. So I have hope that things will change but I'm also very skeptical. We'll see what happens.

AMT: Sarah, what are you studying in university?

SARAH: So I graduated with a degree in social sciences.

AMT: Okay. And are you working now?

SARAH: Yes. I work for a counsellor Matthew Green part time at City Hall and part time at the Hamilton center for civic conclusions.

AMT: Okay. Well thanks for sharing your story and your opinions with us.

SARAH: Thank you so much for having me.

AMT: That's Sarah. She's in Hamilton. Erin is in Kingston. Hi, Erin.

ERIN: Hello.

AMT: How do you think our public schools are doing for kids who learn differently?

ERIN: I think that we have a long way to go. I think there's a lot we can learn from other provinces and from what's happening in the states. But the biggest thing that had me call in was I don't think that this is a conversation about school inclusion, and whether school inclusion is meeting kids’ meet. It's really, for me, a question about the quality of special education here in Ontario. I have two kids with special education needs. And I haven't that professional development around how to teach a child with dyslexia or even how to recognize the early symptoms of dyslexia, how to recognize – with my younger daughter it is dyslexia and giftedness - how to understand what was happening and see who we really basic [unintelligible]. And we just didn't have it by grade 2. I had to homeschool her for two years in order to get the assessment, to figure out the technology she needed an instruction. And I'm someone who provides professional [unintelligible] to teachers that's my job. So I was really baffled that I was arguing with special educators and school principal about whether there was a Special Education made when it shouldn't have been a debate. The red flags were all there. Dyslexia runs in my family. I had all the evidence I needed. I think here in Ontario we don't provide nearly enough professional development in things like how to see a reading disability, how to see a learning disability, how to catch it early, how to change how are teaching in the classroom in order to prevent kids showing up in middle school and high school and finally getting identified and finally getting support when they should have gone younger. But I don't see it as a question of what's happening in regular classrooms versus special classroom because I don't see any evidence that special classrooms are doing a better job. The reason that families are fighting for school inclusion and have fought is to get better quality instruction. My older daughter has a really complex disability and if we left it to a LifeSkills classroom I don't understand what LifeSkills they would prepare her for. I mean our school systems allow her to go on a separate bus if she wanted to, to a separate classroom, to learn a completely separate curriculum. And I don't understand what future that would provide for her other than a completely separate life in a residential setting. So for her we have had to really advocate not just for her inclusion in the classroom but actually her instruction in the classroom. It is not including a kid if we haven't figured out how do we actually include every every student in the actual instruction. How do we help every child actually access the regular curriculum and how do we help every child leave school prepared to have choice and control and opportunities for post-secondary and choice and control over where they're going to live and what they're going to do and how they're being deployed. And I just haven't seen any of that. And I think it really comes from the ministry level and down there is no leadership at the provincial level at the ministry level to provide the professional development or to provide the vision to get all of our kids truly educated.

AMT: Okay, well Erin I'm going to pick up on some of those points with our next guest. Thanks for calling in.

ERIN: Thanks.

AMT: That is Aaron in Kingston. And we do have someone waiting in the wings here to talk to us a little bit more about Ontario and inclusion in its schools. Jacqueline Specht is the director of the Canadian research center on inclusive education. A professor in the Faculty of Education at Western University she's in London, Ontario. Hello Jacqueline.

JACQUELINE SPECHT: Hello, how are you?

AMT: I'm well I'm wondering what you think of when our last caller just had to say?

JACQUELINE SPECHT: Well I think it does come down to the key issue of ensuring that our educators are prepared and know how to deal with all diversity in our classroom. And I think our ministry of Ontario definitely and across the country has really been focusing in on that in the last number of years, because it's not just about kids with special education needs. I think as Sheila pointed out before there's lots of diversity in our classrooms. So we think about you know when I was educated It was about assessment at the end of a unit and if you got it you got it, and if you didn't well we were moving on. There was a single definition of excellence. But I do think that our school system has changed, our classrooms have changed. We now talk about assessment as is being ongoing and helping with learning not just whether you got it or you didn't. Excellence really is looking at the individual growth in the child and how much the child has learned. We use lots of different kinds of instruction in lots of different kinds of assessment. And so it really does come down and it starts on our faculty of education for sure to ensure that we are providing that information that skillset to our teachers who will go out into our system and be teachers, and that for the teachers that are there that we continue on with the professional development and the coaching and helping them understand the best way to teach all of our kids in a diverse setting.

AMT: We just heard from our last guest who talks about it's one thing to say they're included, it's another thing to actually include them to do that. And so the frustration that she experienced, what's falling through the cracks there?

JACQUELINE SPECHT: Well I think she talked about and did so well is that inclusion is not just about placing a child in a classroom. You know she talked about the research study that looks at high inclusive settings and so that is that that child is participating equally in the class, not sitting at the back with an educational assistant but being part of the instruction, being part of the friendship groups. And that's really why we have inclusion, because if we don't expose our kids to all kinds of diversity then we don't grow up in a world where we think diversity is a good thing. We stick to our own kind if you like. I think Grace at the beginning when you had that little girl who said she didn't want to ask for help because she was embarrassed. I think that the more we accept that there are learning differences, that there are cultural differences, that are gender and sexuality differences in our classrooms then the moral tone we are to accepting that as a society.

AMT: And how does the training or the teaching or the learning of the educators feed into that? Again we're talking to people who say they teach development but they're not seeing it trickle into the classroom.

JACQUELINE SPECHT: Well I think again that's you know where we are in our faculty to education. We talk about that we talk about that in our school systems. You know we are talking the talk I guess now we have to sort of walk the talk. You know currently we're involved in a research study across the country. The number of the guests that you've had on and we'll continue to have on as you move to the west and we're looking at that development of inclusive practice for beginning teachers, because we know that when our teachers come out of our faculty of education they do feel like they are able to instruct all children in the classroom and they do have a sense that all children belong in the classroom. And so what happens then when they get out into the school system, and what kinds of professional development are they exposed to that helps them continue with that understanding and that practice. You know, as with any learning, we cannot expect that coming out of the Faculty of Education you know it all. But you certainly have the beginnings of that and the tools of that. And so our research study is hoping then to say well what happens once you get into the system, what's there and how do you learn to hone those skills that you started in your faculty of education.

AMT: And the individual schools working under the boards, how do you work on that level? How do you encourage principals to embrace this and teachers to work with the principals on this?

JACQUELINE SPECHT: Well I think that's where our ministries of education have to come in and be courageous and say that this is what we're doing. You know I think in Ontario we still have such a range of possible placements. We still have separate schools for children who have been identified with special education needs all the way up into a regular classroom. And so I think our ministries have to start by saying all children will be in in the regular classroom as they have done in New Brunswick. And then you hit on a good point it really is about the leadership and so whether that's at the ministry level or the school board level or the principal or the teacher as a leader in his or her classroom, taking that on and being courageous and knowing that it's a human rights for people with disabilities to have equal participation in society and education as one of those places. And to learn how to do it within our regular setting. Sheila spoke about before. It's not a either or. It's the children still get what they need. They still get their special education services. But we have those happening in our classrooms with everybody rather than separating them into a special class or a special school.

AMT: Okay. Jacqueline Specht. Thanks for speaking with us today.

JACQUELINE SPECHT: Thank you.

AMT: That is Jacqueline specked director of the Canadian research center on inclusive education and a professor in the Faculty of Education at Western University in London, Ontario. Sheila Bennett is with me. You heard her in our first half hour. She's a professor and associate dean a professional undergraduate and student services in the Faculty of Education at Brock University in St. Catherines, Ontario. She is also a former special education teacher. Sheila what do you make of the argument? Well first of all there are still are some separate schools but we heard a parent talk about maybe we need to be separate at one time of the day or one in certain classes. Well what do you make of these opinions that you're hearing?

SHEILA BENNETT: It's interesting because I've actually been a teacher in one of those LD classes and I wouldn't argue that good things didn't happen there. What I would argue strongly is that those good things can happen anywhere in terms of the classroom. I know that when I was beginning my career in Newfoundland, we work with kids with LD, the model that we took was instead of working with the kid each time we work with a teacher each time to build capacity. So after all of the years that I've spent in education as a teacher and now in the faculty, I can no longer see the argument for separation as a means of fixing somebody. That goes back to that old medical model of ‘There's something wrong with this person. So we need to fix them before they can come back and join society’. And that flies in the face of this notion of inclusion as being human right. So is there are other specialized techniques that can be used to assist children with disabilities, things like dyslexia to be able to integrate into the curriculum and learn more efficiently? Absolutely especially with technology. Does that need to be done in a separate place? No.

AMT: And it's resonating as we listen to some of the tape going through in our first half hour. We met Quinn who was in Nanaimo. He's in grade six but he's doing grade three math and there wasn't someone to help him with Grade 3 math. And so he couldn't do anything. And you had an idea there.

SHEILA BENNETT: Well it was interesting because the picture that was painted was of this child doing grade three worksheets integrate six classrooms. And the curriculum is developed across the country. Curriculums all always developed with recurring theme. So when you have a child, when you're teaching grade six math, there are multiple scenes in that grade six math; measurement; probability that have different levels. So you don't separate a child and say “Here do grade three math on a worksheet. Everybody else we're going to be you know measuring body parts and looking at ratio.” That child needs to be doing what the class is doing but then the work is modified. A lot of inclusion is in the planning. The work is modified to the grade level of the child, when that child is doing that. The notion of giving grade three worksheets has this weird sort of theory to it that if I give them enough grade three worksheets he's going to catch up and someday he'll be in grade 6.

AMT: Okay, hold that thought. We're going to go to another caller. Janice is in Simcoe County. Hello, Janice.

JANICE: Hello. Thanks for taking my call.

AMT: Well thanks for calling in. How are our public schools doing for kids who learn differently?

JANICE: Well my situation as my son was in the public school system in Simcoe County, up until Grade four, and in grade two I noticed that he was struggling with a few things so I asked for a side ed assessment. The school board told me it will take years. I thought my child can't wait years. So I paid privately to have it done. It came back with a learning disability and Asperger's as well, and took me months to get an ITRC, finally got one, got an IET. HE got a computer and no one was helping him with it. And to make a long story short, it was two years of fighting and my husband and I decided it's a battle we are never going to win. So I pulled out my husband's Catholic baptism and moved him into the Catholic school system in Simcoe County and we have not looked back. They were wonderful inclusive environment, helped him with his computer. He was two grades behind going in. They caught him up and he now started Grade 9. And I will be forever grateful to them. I really will for caring and taking my son on and ensuring that he's got an education.

AMT: Okay, well Janice, thank you for sharing that. We're going to have to break so I have to let you go but thank you for that story. Thank you for calling in. That's Janice in Simcoe County. And just briefly Sheila, we have been hearing this in the earlier time zone people talking about an individual school can make a difference.

SHEILA BENNETT: That's right. So we go back to the leadership notion. It's amazing to think that something successful can happen in one classroom, with one teacher and one set of students that for some reason can't happen in another classroom, with another teacher, another set of students. And it is about one of the earlier caller said this morning around belief and functionality. You have to have a set of beliefs to drive a practice and that has to be communicated to your staff and the support needs to be put in place. Then you can make it happen.

AMT: Okay we'll keep on this conversation in about 90 seconds. We have to stop for a break. This is a special edition of The Current. We're asking how our public schools are doing for kids who learn differently. You can call us the number is 1 8 8 4 1 6 8 3 3 3. Sheila Bennett is with me. She'll stay with me as we take your calls in our next half hour. This is The Current on CBC Radio 1.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti you are listening to a special edition of The Current today on CBC Radio One. We are asking how our public schools are doing for kids who learn differently. And with me in the studio I have Sheila Bennett, she's a professor and associate dean a professional undergraduate and student services in the Faculty of Education at Brock University St. Catherines, Ontario. She's also a former special education teacher. And we are taking your calls. The number is 1 8 8 8 4 1 6 8 3 3 3. Charlotte has been waiting to speak to us. Charlotte's in Toronto. Hi.

CHARLOTTE: Good morning.

AMT: How is our public school system doing for kids who learn differently in your experience?

CHARLOTTE: Well I can only speak to my experience within the TDSB. I have a six and a half year old boy who was born with a rare disease called galactosemia. And these supplementary diagnoses that follow were of autism spectrum disorder, global developmental delay and then an intellectual disability at the moderate level. And you know at four years old when he entered the TSBD as a JK student he entered a regular classroom. And we knew at that time that his needs are going to be different than that of his peers. He was essentially non-verbal at that time. And we took great strides to prepare the school by hosting meetings with them from sort of May onward to head of the September intake to prepare them for his entrance, because we were very concerned about it. He was our first child and therefore our first child entering the school system then we didn't know what we didn't know. And the story that Janice just told about relocating to another school board is very sort of eerily calm and I am in contact with many many people now in my capacity as a sort of quasi advocate for children like mine. And we've heard that same story so many times. In a city like Toronto where we went ahead and merged seven separate school boards to form the TDSP with I think six hundred schools under its nested, we tout ourselves as a world class city with all the best of everything and yet we're failing every day to meet the needs of special needs students and that speaks to both ends of the spectrum. Students with you know severe learning disabilities, who are who are like my son with an intellectual disability, and then students on the gifted end of the spectrum. They cater to the median and that is it. I'm convinced now that the board is really intent on having their own policy in place. The TDSP special education plan is the document that speaks to the rights and entitlements of children within their board as far as they're concerned. And I guess adlib they say you know every student is entitled to the supports that they need to reach their fullest potential as students. And yet every parent that you'll speak to says we had to fight. They use words like fight and argue and push to sort of illustrate the extent that they have to go to get their children not that they deserve, but what they're entitled to and those are very different things in my mind.

AMT: Right now, Charlotte so you make the point that you had to become an advocate. Did you have to change schools? Did you change school boards? What did you do in the end?

CHARLOTTE: Eventually my son was transitioned into still within a tedious TDSP but in to an intensive support program. It's referred to as primary DD, that's developmentally delayed students. So he's now in a classroom of eight with a fantastic teacher and so it's not all doom and gloom, but it took us nearly two years to get to that point. They first sort of forced families into this sort of spiral of like the acronyms, it is like alphabet soup of things that no one can possibly understand until they wade through it themselves. There is no liaison between the board and the families entering the school with children with special needs or with needs that are as yet unidentified. You know IEP, ITRC, SSTS, SNA, EA. What do any of these things mean? There's a fundamental flaw in the system that requires you to navigate it to that extent and this system is not navigable as it stands. I mean and I say that as somebody who was born and raised in Toronto, who speaks English as their first language. I look at my fellow families. I live in the east end of Toronto and my fellow family is dealing with similar issues. Many of them are new Canadians. Many of them do not speak English as a first language or not comfortable sort of communicating in that language on a day to day basis. If my child isn't getting what he needed or wasn't getting what he needed, I can only imagine the struggles imposed on families you know who are at a disadvantage in that regard. And I don't consider myself to be and yet still the fight was tremendous. We did not have to move away. But there you know there are so many people who do. They capitulate they give in and they walk away, because the school board makes it that way.

AAMT: Well, Charlotte, it’s really important to hear your voice. Thanks for calling in.

CHARLOTTE: Thank you.

AMT: Charlotte in Toronto. Jennifer is in Toronto, hello Jennifer.

JENNIFER: Hi good morning.

AMT: What would you like to tell us?

JENNIFER: Well I'd like to share my story about my son who's eight years old and you know I can echo a lot of the comments that Charlotte has made. My son was diagnosed with dyslexia, just over a year ago. It's been a really interesting process because he's just entered grade three and I identified that something was off at the end of grade 1 and mentioned it to his teacher. I guess at the last parent teacher interview on June 20th of that year the last week of school. And her response was “I wondered.” [Chuckles] And so you know that began the process of really advocating for our son. So we had him assessed and we met this wonderful woman through a friend, who by trade is a speech language pathologist but has a lot of experience that dyslexic children. We've been working with her privately outside of the public school system. And my son is also within the TDSP. And you know we're paying $150 per session averaging $300 a week. And we've been doing this and we will continue to do this. But I think that you know the teachers that we've spoken with have all verbally said to me: “We don't have experience with dyslexic children. We're not trained” or “we've never worked with a child with dyslexia. So it's really something where that advocating piece is huge and you know that's what we're doing. My son loves school. I mean we don't want to pull him out of his current situation. He's very socially happy. He loves it. But we'll just have to see because obviously we want the best for our child.

AMT: Okay well Jennifer thank you for calling. I'm going to go to Sheila Bennett now. Sheila what do you make of what you're hearing there?

SHEILA BENNETT: I'm just surprised given that in the province of Ontario alone 50% of all children diagnosed as exceptional, in terms of categories, 50% of those are under the category of learning disability which would include dyslexia. So it actually quite shocking to me to hear that educators would be unfamiliar with the term or the kinds of strategies that are used. And I would say that I would imagine that in a more inclusive setting, I know from my own experience even in non-inclusive settings that the level of discourse of learning disability, which was first identified in the 1960s, is much higher than that. So it's really really shocking that educators would say that because I think it's not representative of all educators. I think most educators have a pretty good sense of learning disability and can certainly access information about it.

AMT: Hmm. Interesting. Okay, Stacey is on the line from Dundas, Ontario. Hello Stacey.

STACEY: Good morning how are you?

AMT: I'm well and I'm interested to know how our public schools are doing for kids who learn differently in your opinion?

STACEY: I have the opportunity of being both a parent and a teacher within the same school system of Hamilton-Wentworth district school board. And to me it's not only a broken system, it's the system that absolutely needs to be revamped from the bottom up. It's like putting a square pegs into a round hole. The model is based on funding. It's not based on children, not based on children needs. We the more [unintelligible] centered learning and compassion action when it comes to inclusion. And I think give you a typical example right now. My son was diagnosed with AST at the age of four. I don't know how to navigate the system. I have navigated the system and I still am fighting the battle, eleven years later. My son was suspended from school on Friday for using a swear word which absolutely we don't condone. However, if you go in and read what has been written in my son’s LSR. I will just read for you. It says: “Patrick has this [unintelligible] existing impulses in stopping himself from behaving an appropriate behavior. He has difficulty making transition and tolerating change, emotional control and difficulty modulating controlling his emotional responses such as over reacting, sudden outburst and frequent mood changes. So that is part of his profile. That is part of his learning disability and that is supposed to be accommodated for by the school system. However high school seems to be less, there is less resources there is less time. I think they didn't understand my son. He is just going into grade nine. they didn't seem to be able to do the homework. A situation escalated that shouldn't have. And now my son is home for three days saying “I hate school. They don't understand me. I feel stupid.” So we sort of feel defeated. Like we are back to square one, when he was 4 years old.

AMT: Thank you for calling in. Thanks for sharing that. It is disturbing. Thank you.

CHARLOTTE: Thank you. Yes. Bye bye.

AMT: Goodbye. I want to bring another voice in here because the concept of inclusion brings other challenges for students and teachers in Nunavut. It's of course Canada's largest territory. It's also one of the least populated. In 2008 a made in Nunavut Education Act was passed by the Legislative Assembly. It promised bilingual education and the promise of Inuit culture in all aspects of schooling. In 2013 Canada's auditor general gave the implementation of that act a failing grade. And so we wanted an update on the progress made since then and we went to John MacDonald he is the assistant deputy minister for the Department of Education in Nunavut and we reached him in Iqaluit. Listen to what he says.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN MACDONALD: I can give you examples of challenges that come to mind. The first being the number of bilingual educators that we have. We do not have sufficient numbers of teachers and frankly other employees in schools who can speak Inuktitut, the Inuit language. And if you take that one step further, that students who are uni lingual, will and perhaps have additional supports required, that we're able to provide those supports. Another challenge that we deal with is the geographical distance in this territory. It's one fifth of Canada's landmass, which people often forget. We have fly in communities. There are no roads into Nunavut. So you know whether it's provision of training to staff, or providing supportive services, whether that's a speech pathologist, audiologist, those types of services are extremely difficult for us to provide to our students in our school system. At the end of the day what we're trying to achieve is to ensure that all students have the opportunity to participate in the education system. That's what we're striving for.

AMT: Okay, so that's John McDonald assistant deputy minister for the Department of Education in Nunavut and we reached him in Iqaluit. Sheila Bennett, the geographical hurdles of the territory and the distances play out, I'm sure you run into people who are at university with you who are going to teach in the north. What kind of challenges do you hear about?

SHEILA BENNETT: Certainly it's an interesting problem, having trained in Newfoundland myself, the geographic question even back then was a big one in terms of getting to remote communities. What's fascinating about the notion of distance now is the impact of technology on distance and how we can bring resources in various forms, but that of course assumes that the technology works and that the technology is available. But from an inclusive perspective what's really interesting around belief systems and that on the part around I think one of your earlier caller said Compassion inclusion, is that having grown up and going to school in a small community that was remote and then listening to the challenges in remote communities. One of the things that happens in remote communities is that every child goes to the school because there is no school for them to go to. So in some ways we have things that we can learn from that kind of practice but the logistics of that kind of functionality moving across the country and trying to cover that large land mass is absolutely huge challenge.

AMT: Let's go to another caller. Angie is calling in from Mirabel, Quebec. Hello.

ANGIE: Hi.

AMT: How are our public schools doing for kids who learn differently in in your experience?

ANGIE: Well I can only speak to the fact that my child is - I can't even say gifted because they don't do anything you know to even test them. So he excels at school and [unintelligible] which is I think grade 10 in the rest of Canada and all of his elementary school, he did finish work early and then the teacher would make him read. So he'd read two or three novels per week which is not like you know learning or pushing him to his full potential. So I would have to compensate with special you know projects from home. Now he's in grade 10 or level four here in Quebec. And he's in advanced science and advanced math and he's basically smarter than I am now. So, I can't really provide those special projects for him anymore. So we try to watch documentaries and we try to talk about what's happening in the world and the different scientific discoveries of the week, you know some on all those Facebook pages to try and stimulate some kind of conversation with him. And I don't have the budget to send him to private school so I would say that though he's on the other end of the problem quote unquote. It's still a problem because he is still not you know reaching his full potential with public schools. I also often get the eyeroll from parents who have you know students that are struggling in school, saying “oh that's not a problem. You know he's doing well. Why are you complaining?” Because he's not reaching his full potential the same way as the other students aren't.

AMT: And what's the reaction of the teachers when you bring that up with them?

ANGIE: Well the teachers are happy to have him in his class because he's no problem. He gets all work done and then he's done and then he sits there and does nothing, or helps other students you know because he had come to do so. So and when they ask they go: “Well we don't have time. We don't have time to make another project. We don't have time to.” I am like: “But you don't have like a book or a no exercise book? Can't you send them to a higher grade?” When he was in elementary “Can’t you send him to like the following grade and see if you can learn something there?” I don't know. And they didn't. They didn't do anything.

AMT: Okay, well I'm going to get to Sheila Bennett to comment on that. Thanks Angie. Sheila what do you make of that?

SHEIL ABENNETT: I'm always a little disturbed when I hear stories about kids who finish their work early and then are given nothing to do. That's not. We talked earlier today about universal design for learning and we talk about differentiated instruction. You're absolutely right. A child should be given an opportunity to reach their full potential regardless of their earning level. So it is not acceptable to have that empty time because what you will find is that when you add high level activities or differentiated ways of doing things at those levels more interesting ways other kids will also join and so it doesn't just work for one that works for many children.

AMT: Asta is calling in from Aurora hello.

ASTA: Hello.

AMT: Hi. What would you like to talk to us about in this? Is the is the public school working for kids who learn differently in your experience?

ASTA: So I have a son who is on the spectrum. So he started JK last year and I took the issue [unintelligible] like I was request the school for you know little bit one on one support for him because he really wanted to go to that classroom because he liked the kids. He was learning there. He loved his teacher and everything but his real learning is a little different. He walks around and you learn like that. So he is a smart kid. Like he started reading when he was like two and a half, like [unintelligible] and you know he can do math by himself. The thing he needs to learn is how to sit in the classroom, the classroom behavior. And again I think the kindergarten program is really random. It's so much play base than the kids who on spectrum who are really can work with this structure, they are completely lost there and that's why they are completely underestimated in terms of their potential, in terms of what they have learned. If he comes on for example I ask him you know by giving him some really important what did you learn today and he was able to tell me everything. But in the classroom the teacher is asking questions, anything, he is pretty much lost there, because there's no one there to teach him like you know “sit in the circle” you know “listen to the teacher” and these kind of thing.

AMT: And so when you rise and when you raise that with the school what do they tell you?

ASTA: They said we cannot provide EA support and it is limited, like for example in my son's classroom it was like two hours by day,j and the EA support is not for the kids with special needs. It is the support for the teachers. If teacher is having you know a tantrum issue with kid who is not on special needs, she can use the EA for that. So basically our kids are not getting any support there. And I even raised this issue with ministry I went to the y the local mayor office in my area. I gave a letter to them. They forwarded my letter to ministry. I got a call from them and then I kept saying that I need one to one. They said the solution is you send them to a Community class. And eventually I had to do that because my son was completely lost in the classroom and I know how much potential he has. And the reason he's not able to show it because there's no one to teach him this. He doesn't need to be taught how alphabet works. He need to be taught this thing right. So every kid needs to learn something or the else, to actually work in the community. So that's the important thing. I think if we provide the support at the very basic level at elementary level, they will not even need support when they are you know in grade 5 or grade 6 because when you are young your mind can actually manipulate and learn things faster.

AMT: Okay.

ASTA: And this is what I'm doing now like at home. I do a lot of one on one with him and his therapist. I have support from Kinark, in terms of funding. So his therapist is doing lot of one on one and see tremendous improvement in him. But if he can get that at school level - I was lucky to get Kinark funding. But most of the parents they don't get. So and then that's why their kids don't even graduate because they are not given the support at the right level.

AMT: Right. Asta, thank you for calling in. It's important to hear your story. Thank you.

ASTA: Thank you.

AMT: Asta in Aurora calling us, and Tiffany is on the line from Ottawa. Hello.

TIFFANY: Good morning.

AMT: What's your view?

TIFFANY: Well we've given up on the public system we've actually taken our son out and now he's in private school.

AMT: And how old is your son?

TIFFANY: He's 12. So he's in grade 7.

AMT: And do you notice a difference?

TIFFANY: Definitely, definitely. In the public system, you know they kept saying we know there's something there. We're not sure what it is but you know we don't have the funding to get him diagnosed because we don't have enough testing psychologists available. So we spent thousands to get him diagnosed and we got two different labels that fit their funding formula. And yet because he doesn't fit in their exact boxes he doesn't get any help. So he has a learning disability but because he's able to read he doesn't fit in the Reading Recovery Program. He has autism but he's too high functioning to fit in any of the autism programs. He doesn't have any behavior problems so he doesn't qualify for an educational assistant. So he ends up with no real help at all. They just say oh you know “We'll give some pointers to the teachers.?

AMT: So you've gone to the private system What's it costing you? Can I ask?

AMT: Well the school itself is like $15,000 a year and then you know there's also things on top of that with like physiotherapy, occupational therapy other things like that, because we don't qualify for any of the autism funding either.

AMT: So you would have you would have chosen to stay in the public system if you could have?

TIFFANY: Oh definitely for sure. I mean I've worked in the public system so I know what it's like. But we cannot expect a teacher with a class of 35 children to make an individualized program for each one. It's just not realistic.

AMT: Okay. Tiffany, thank you for calling in.

TIFFANY: Thank you.

AMT: That's Tiffany in Ottawa. We're getting lots of tweets and Facebook posts as well today and Kathleen Goldhar has been monitoring that. She's our executive producer. What are you getting, Kathleen?

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Hi Anna Maria. We're getting a lot. And please keep writing and tweeting and getting on our Facebook and adding your comments. But this is from Joanna Mitchell and she writes: “Although our school has done their very best to support my son, I fear that he will continue to fall behind. He's hard of hearing, ADHD and has a learning disability. In regular life, he's a pretty good kid. In school. He becomes so overwhelmed that he has behavior issues. I get calls every day I'm asked to pick him up. I'm asked to keep him at home. I'm not even sure how my husband and I are going to be able to continue to work because we spend so much time at the school or on the phone with them. We're considered strong advocates and still we cannot get the support we need for our son. I fear for those who don't have the resources to be able to navigate the system. I fear for my son's future. He's at risk of dropping out, mental health issues, addictions, etc., if we cannot get the support. We need for him we need to put out the money to support these neurologically diverse children now, so we're not dealing with the social and health problems later in life.”

AMT: Sheila Bennett how do you react to that post?

SHEILA BENNET: I think that she's absolutely right in terms of a profile like that being at risk for dropping out and it's costing the system far more money later on, once we don't give children what they need in schools. I find it deeply disturbing that children are being sent home. Right now we're doing a project with a law association community living in Ontario that is looking at violations of the education act, in terms of people being told to keep their children home. You're not allowed to tell people to keep their children home. So if something's not working in schools, if the child is not getting what they need, the solution is not “you can't come back to school until learn differently, behave differently.” The solution is working with parents and working with other professionals and working with the educators in that school. And I've never once met an educator who didn't want to make a difference in a child's life. So I'm sure in that scenario the teachers are very frustrated as well. So that working together piece to build a future where that child has an opportunity is essential. I think we have time for one more posting Kathleen.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: So that's interesting to your point about not knowing an educator that is not interested. This came from Melanie Sheldon and she writes: “As a therapist who works in the school system I see many success stories and many not so successful times. The successes are on the backs of hardworking caring and intrepid resource teachers and likeminded EAs. The failures are usually the fault of people who are only there to get a paycheck. In the end, they go home and forget about the rotten day they cause for a differently abled child. More staff would be fantastic. But how about we focus on making the staff that is there more invested, give them better training so they have the insights to bother to be empathetic.”

AMT: Sheila.

SHEILA BENNETT: That's really interesting. And it leads to another project that we worked a lot on for a number of years where we took occupational therapists and put them in schools. Currently the way it generally works is an LT will go in two different schools you might have eight LTs in one school that sort of pop in, pop out, pop in, pop out for different children. And what we found at the beginning when we start working with the LTs, and this is out of CanChild at MacMaster was Dr. Cheryl Missiuna. We found that the LTs were very opinionated about what schools didn't, teachers did, and classrooms did, and the project which has gone on for a number of years put those LTs in classrooms with teachers. They didn't work with kids outside of the room and the understanding and the communication and the trust and rapport that was developed over time between somebody in one profession and another, because teachers can often be mistrustful of professionals coming in, really made a huge difference. So I think there's a need for communication.

AMT: We have to leave it there we are out of time. Kathleen Goldhar, thank you. Our executive producer Sheila Bennett professor, associate dean of professional undergraduate and student services in the Faculty of Education at Brock University, our special guest today. Thank you for being part of this. That is our program for today. It is not the end of the conversation. If you did not get through to share your story, please get in touch with us through our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the Contact link. You can post on our Facebook page. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. And stay with CBC Radio One Tom Power is next with Q. He's speaking to bestselling author Dan Brown about his latest novel Origin.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Remember you can take the current with you to go on the CBC Radio app free from the App Store or Google Play. Again let us know what you're thinking on all of this cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the Contact link. I'm Anna Maria Tremonte. Thank you for listening to this special edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

October 3, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This