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The AIH Transcript for October 02, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

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JD: Tonight:

CO: At least 58 people are dead, and hundreds injured after a gunman opened fire on a music festival in Las Vegas. Our guests began the night serving beer to country music fans, and ended that comforting one of the victims as he died.

JD: Not one of us. A Somali refugee is charged with attempted murder after a shocking attack in Edmonton, and members of the Somali community there take pains to make it clear that he had no place among them.

CO: Orange Crush. After a decisive victory, Jagmeet Singh is now the new leader of the NDP, and he says his next goal is to take down Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

JD: Separation anxiety. After yesterday's referendum, the government of Catalonia says 90 per cent of voters want independence from Spain, but the government of Spain says the vote was 100 per cent meaningless.

CO: Going all in on inviting all in. In the midst of Australia's nationwide vote on whether same sex couples should have the right to marry, the American rapper Macklemore uses a very public stage to vote yes.

JD: And… a shore sign. Nearly 60 years after a Canadian Navy pilot disappeared off the coast of Florida, New clues about what happened to him wash up on a beach — possibly uncovered by this year's hurricanes. As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that knows they were ill winds, but they may have done some good.

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Part 1: Las Vegas: witness, Jagmeet Singh, Canadian pilot

Las Vegas: witness

Guest: Heather Gooze

JD: As country music star Jason Aldean started his headlining set at the Route 91 Harvest Festival in Las Vegas, shots rang out. Witnesses say, at first, they sounded like fireworks. And then it became all too clear what was really happening. At least 58 people have died. Five hundred more are injured. It is the deadliest mass shooting in modern American history. Heather Gooze was bartending at the concert. And when others ran away from the gunfire, she stayed with the wounded and with the dead. 23-year-old Jordan Mclldoon, a Canadian, was among those killed at the concert last night. Ms. Gooze was with him when he died. We reached Heather Gooze in Las Vegas.

CO: Heather, at what point did you realize that there was someone shooting at that concert?

HEATHER GOOZE: We didn’t personally hear the first couple like shots. You could hear the concert and it sounded like it was part of the concert. Literally I had a British gentleman’s credit card in my hand and was swiping it through the machine. When, all of a sudden, there was thousands of people pushing their way into the bar, screaming and saying shooter, shooter, and, all of a sudden, like a second round of bullets went off. And because like there was no music or anything, you could hear… I mean it sounded just like thousands of fireworks going off.

CO: And what did you do? How did you respond?

HG: My first instinct was to run with everybody. And I don't know why I didn’t? Something inside of me like that made me stop and you know we didn't know… we thought the shooter was on the ground. So we didn't know where he was going to go? What was going to happen? And so I was right behind like the back door of the bar and it was working. And I walked in and there was a lady standing against the wall and her leg was bleeding. I said did you cut yourself? Did you fall? And she’s like I don't know what happened. And I looked at her leg and she had two little holes like right in the front of her leg.

CO: She'd been shot?

HG: She’d been shot. All of a sudden, you heard a bunch more shots. They were like right outside of the bar. And then, all of a sudden, like people that were coming to the bar where all the injured. There was just so many people were holding people.

CO: There’s a fence and they were using parts of the fence as stretchers to try and carry people out, is that right?

HG: Yeah, there was like a big, round Route 91 cardboard sign; they were using that to carry people. The barrier fences, you know that like block off you know the front of the stage or whatever. Every single one of them had a body on it.

CO: Heather, at what point did you encounter Jordan Mclldoon?

HG: I turned around and there's like three guys holding a metal ladder. And they said come over here, we need your help. Can you grab the corner of the ladder? So I grabbed the corner of the ladder and I reached down and I grabbed the guy's hand, and we carried the ladder outside to the back of the festival. And they put him down and they said Are you OK? We've got to go back in. I said I'm OK. And literally right as they walked away, I felt his fingers tighten and then loosen. And nobody knew who he was. We didn't know anything about him. You know I was trying to see if he was awake. And he wasn’t; he had just passed.

CO: How did you find out who he was?

HG: He had his cell phone on him. The cell phone started to ring. There was myself and another gentleman, whose name I didn't get. I answered it. It was a friend of his named Connor. We said who are you calling right now? Who are you trying to get a hold of? And he said you know Jordan, and we said Jordan what? And so I was there with a marker. We literally wrote Jordan's name on his shoulder so that we knew it. You know and we were talking to the guy. We're like you know we can't really talk right now. I told him who I was, that I was just a random bartender that was just trying to help. And his mom called. The guy that was with me answered Jordan's phone. And it was his mom. At that point, we didn't say anything to his mom. We just asked who he was with. We found out he was there with his girlfriend. We found out her name. We got her phone number. So then I called Amber, we found out she was in lockdown in the basement of Tropicana.

CO: And what did you tell Amber?

HG: I said I was with Jordan and she said Is he hurt? I said yes. And she said is he OK? And I said no. And she said please be honest with me, you know what's going on? I said I don't want to be the one to tell you this, but he didn't make it. And she said no, that's not true. He’s got to be breathing. Check again, see if he's breathing. I said I've been with him for over an hour now. I go he didn't make it. She said he is the love of my life; please tell that he's OK. At that point, I promised her that I would absolutely not leave his side, that I would be her contact that I would make sure she knew where he was going to be moved to and what was going on. That I would make sure that I would tell her every single thing that was happening. She couldn't leave.

CO: Heather, what did what did your companion tell Jordan's mom? We know her name is Angela, and this is their only child, and they live in Maple Ridge.

HG: All we did was get information about Amber and him. We didn't, at that point, tell her what happened. After I got off the phone with Amber, I don't know how long it was, his mom called back. I talked to her. I told her I had spoken to Amber. I told her that Amber was OK. You know and then she asked me you know how was Jordan? And I actually didn't realize that the guy who had spoken to her first didn't tell her that he had passed away. So I said well, he didn't make it. I'm sitting with his body right now. And she was relatively calm in the beginning. She was asking questions. Then she told me like his childhood nickname was Blimpy because he was a blimp when he was little, that he's covered in tattoos, that you know he loves life and he loves his girlfriend and you know they were supposed to go home today and it sucks. But I told her too that I was in touch with Amber, that I wasn't going to leave him until she knew all the information. You know I would never want myself or one of my family members to be left alone. I needed to make certain that they could identify him, that they knew who he was, that they knew that he had a girlfriend that was here. And so I just I stayed with him.

CO: How long did you stay with him?

HG: It was 3:30 in the morning when a couple of the detectives and a firemen came over and started you know telling us that you know they need people to go the police station. They needed you know to do a 100 per cent verification the bodies. Then they would be moved to the coroner's office. Just as I was about to leave the area, another detective called me. He said he was with Amber, that they had police with her at the Tropicana and then you know I went home. I threw out my clothes because, at this point, I was freezing cold and I was covered in blood. And then, at about 546 am, I got a text message from Amber saying that he'd been shot on the left side of his stomach, but that was all she knew. They wouldn’t let her see him yet. That she was at the police station.

CO: You stayed with him for five-and-a-half hours after he'd been shot?

HG: Yeah. I wouldn’t want anybody to leave. I couldn't just leave him by himself. You know Amber couldn’t be with him, or his mom. I don’t know, I just couldn’t leave him.

CO: Do you have anybody with you? Do you have anyone to hold you?

HG: My roommates are home. Both of my roommates are home. They both stayed home from work just to be in the house in case. But I mean I’m Ok. I don’t think I really registered everything yet.

CO: Heather, I'm so glad you were there. And I can't imagine how grateful the family is that you were, there Amber and the parents, Al and Angela, and I think you’re a very special person.

HG: Thank you. I’m not…

CO: You are. And I think that you deserve a great deal of thanks. And I thank you for speaking with us and telling… this is very painful.

HG: No problem. It was my pleasure.

CO: Please take care.

HG: Thank you.

JD: Heather Gooze stayed with 23-year-old Jordan Mclldoon, a Canadian, who was among those killed at the concert last night. We reached Heather Gooze in Las Vegas. For the latest on the Las Vegas shooting, go to: www.cbcnews.ca. And our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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Julie Payette

JD: Julie Payette is now Canada's 29th Governor-General. It is official. The former astronaut was installed at a ceremony inside the Senate chamber on Parliament Hill today. Ms. Payette was accompanied by her parents and her siblings — and her 14-year-old son Laurier. After the ceremony, Julie Payette urged Canadians to reach for their dreams. And said all of us have a duty to help improve the lives of others. Here's part of her speech.

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JULIE PAYETTE: I'm a true believer in the strength of teamwork, in the power of dreams and the absolute necessity of a support structure. And this is exactly the backbone of this country. This is our fabric. I am convinced that anyone can accomplish anything and race to the challenge. As long as they are willing to work with others to let go of the personal agenda, to reach a higher goal and to do what is right for the common good. And this is exactly what I hope that my mandate as a governor general will reflect. In our altruistic capability, we can indeed do a lot of good. And it is our duty, to some extent, to help improve the lives of people in our community — to diminish the gap and the inequities here and elsewhere.

JD: Canada's new Governor General Julie Payette speaking in Ottawa today. Ms. Payette takes over from former Governor General David Johnston, who served in the post for seven years.

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Jagmeet Singh

Guest: Jagmeet Singh

JD: Canadian politics is getting seriously stylish. First our prime minister appeared in Vogue. Now, the NDP has chosen a leader who hit the national scene with a snazzy spread in GQ. But Jagmeet Singh is intent on proving that behind his hipster-savvy Instagram account, there is a potential prime minister. We reached Mr. Singh in Ottawa.

CO: Jagmeet Singh, congratulations.

JAGMEET SINGH: Thank you very much.

CO: I don’t know if you saw the National Post, John Ivison's headlined on his column that “It'll be Justin versus Jagmeet in the GQ Election of 2019.”

JS: [Sound: Laughter] Did not see that one yet.

CO: So who do you think will be better dressed? You or Justin Trudeau?

JS: I think it's going to be an easy decision on that one: it is going to be me.

CO: [Sound: Laughter] You’re sure of that?

JS: Confident.

CO: Now, why do you think the NDP chose you? Why do you think the party wanted you?

JS: Well, first of all, I think that's a really good way to put it. I mean this is an incredible choice made by the party, made by the members — both new and old — to win on the first ballot meant that I had to have a significant number of people that chose me as their first choice from existing membership, as well as the people that we signed up. I think it says that the party is ready for an exciting message of inclusively, challenging the issues that matter, the issues that are impacting people's lives right now and how we can make them better. But also, an appreciation for the new way of engaging people — reaching out to people with different platforms and using different ways to communicate with people. And I think our campaign and our team showed that we can be successful if we tell compelling stories in a way that stirs the hearts of others.

CO: But doesn't can't already have someone just like that? I mean the leader of the Liberal Party — the prime minister — is a progressive. He has many of the same slogans as you do. He's championing inclusiveness, issues that you're championing. New ways — sunny ways — I mean many of the things you say could actually be included under sunny ways. How are you going to distinguish yourself, besides being better dressed than he is? How will you distinguish yourself?

JS: Well, pretty easily. One of the things is that people in Canada are facing a lot of difficult times. And it takes someone who's kind of experienced a bit of that and had maybe a glimpse of that. I shared a story in my acceptance speech of a time in my 20s when my dad fell ill. My mom was unable to work and I was the sole income-earner. And I had to take in my brother, take care of him, you know buy his clothes, feed him, cook for him and send him off to school and go to his parent teacher interviews. And I was very lucky to be able to get into a professional career, but I was the sole income-earner while I was a lawyer. And I understood a bit of what it feels like to have this crushing weight of responsibility that if I don't earn money that means it's not just me, but my entire family is not going to have a roof over our heads or have food on the table. And I was able to get through this situation and I had so many opportunities. But I felt a glimpse of that difficulty. Also, as someone that's been stopped by the police multiple times for no reason — never charged, but just stopped because the colour my skin — I face some of the inequality that people face. And I've got to go that just a little glimpse into the realties and the struggles economic, racial, just the injustice that people face in their lives. And I can speak more authentically about how we can overcome them having faced them. And that's something that as much as Justin Trudeau would like to, he can never speak with the same authenticity.

CO: So you're saying that as a white man who grew up in privilege can't compete against that. Can't sell himself the way you can as being a man of the people?

JS: He just doesn't have the same appreciation. When he talks about unstable work and getting used to it, maybe if you look at work as a hobby you can get used to work not being stable. But I've lived in a scenario and I've seen people struggle where work is not a hobby, it means putting food on the table. It literally means the difference between being able to make ends meet. And so I don't think that it's acceptable that work can be unstable. We need to build a society where people have good jobs and good work and we build up the economy. And I'm coming from a position of having faced some of the struggles myself, but also seeing them around me. And so it's going to be very easy to show the difference between someone who talks about justice and someone to actually implements it.

CO: But now, I want to talk to you about where you're going to get the people who might put you in the prime minister's office and that the NDP’s traditional base is dwindling. You have most workers aren't in unions anymore. The old “lefties” — the Birkenstocks and Granola generation — they are getting older. So who is the new NDP voter?

JS: The urban and suburban voter. I've won in a riding that had never elected any level of New Democrat, whether it was provincial or federal — even municipal. And not just the one riding, but the entire region of Peel, which is an incredibly diverse and very populated area of 1.3-1.4 million people, and the way we did it is connect with people on issues that matter, speak to them in a way that's compelling and talk about how we can build a better world. And I think it's one thing to criticize the government, we sometimes have to do if there’s things that are going on that need criticism. But more importantly, people want to believe in something that's bigger than themselves. People want to be inspired and I'm hoping to propose ideas that will inspire people.

CO: I want to ask you about Quebec because this is a big issue. During the campaign one of your own MPs, Pierre Nantel, he pointed to your Sheik turban and your kirpan and said of Quebeckers, quote, “We don't want to see any ostentatious religious symbols. We think this is not compatible with power and with authority.” So what do you say to Pierre Nantel?

JS: That's not my experience. When I go to Quebec, I find people to be incredibly open-hearted, open-spirited. It's one of the most progressive provinces in Canada, with policies on daycare that are incredibly affordable. Some of the lowest tuition fees in the country. It's a place where the progressive social democratic message that I'm going to deliver will resound with people, will resonate with people and I'm confident that we’ll not only maintain our seats in Quebec, but we will grow the party in Quebec.

CO: And would you as prime minister intervene to protect charter rights of religious minorities? if something like the PQ’s Secular Charter were made law in Quebec?

JS: Well, there's two strong protections that we already have. We have, in Quebec, an incredibly strong piece of legislation that protects individual rights and freedoms. It's the Quebec Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and it outlines grounds that people cannot be discriminated based on their thought, their expression, their freedom of religion and so those existing laws I'm confident will protect people's rights. We also have a federal piece of legislation that protects people's freedom. So I have complete confidence in the existing protections that exist that will protect individual freedoms and rights.

CO: When are we going to see you in the House of Commons?

JS: That's a good question. Well, I've said that I'm open to counsel on this matter. But I'm comfortable, at the same time, not having a seat. Other New Democratic leaders like Jack Layton haven’t had a seat when they were elected leader and went on to take our party to historic heights. So I'm comfortable that in the position I have right now I can spend the time getting to know issues and travel across Canada and propose our values and ideas, while we have an incredible team in the house of 44 MPs that will hold the Government to account and I'll provide leadership in terms of the issues that matter and the direction we want to go. And combine that work in The House with work on the ground in the communities.

CO: Alright, we'll be watching. Mr. Singh, thank you.

JS: Thank you so much.

JD: Jagmeet Singh is the brand new leader of the federal NDP. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Jazz]

Canadian pilot

Guest: Dick Troy

JD: His name was William Thomas Barry Troy. He was a pilot with the Canadian Navy. And in 1958, he disappeared near Florida. Some wreckage was found, and it was said that Lieutenant Troy had crashed at sea. But a body was never found. Now, nearly 60 years later, there is some new information in this case. Recently, a local park ranger discovered some debris on a beach in Florida, which he says likely washed up due to the recent hurricane in the area. The items the ranger found lead to Lieutenant Troy's family. Dick Troy is Lieutenant Troy's younger brother. We reached him in Santa Monica.

CO: Dick, after all these years what was it like to learn there was some news about your brother?

DICK TROY: Well, it was surreal to say the least. You could have knocked me over with a feather when I spoke to this TV reporter from Jacksonville.

CO: Is that how you found out?

DT: Yeah, I received a call from a television reporter. And then I find out that they had found remains of the aircraft — some debris, including my brother's parachute, which apparently was unopened and his name was on it.

CO: What do you know? How old were you when your brother disappeared?

DT: I was 21.

CO: This was back in 1958. So what did the Navy tell you about what had happened to your brother Barry?

DT: Well, they said he was missing, that's the initial call. My dad was the one that got the news first and, of course, we were all very worried and concerned that the worst was yet to come. Then, we didn't get any news for a day or two. This is my recollection, but the Moncton Times had my brother's picture on the front page, in fact, and it said he was killed. when my dad saw it, he was quite upset. He did call the Navy people in Halifax and demanded to get an update on what was going on because we really hadn't been told.

CO: As far as you know, what happened? How did your brother end up crashing off the coast of Florida?

DT: Well, he was on the Bonaventure — HMCS Bonaventure — which was the only carrier that Canada had. And they were they were in those waters off of Florida, doing routine maneuvers I believe with the U.S. Navy. He was flying from the carrier to the Mayport Naval Air Station, which is near Jacksonville. And they lost radio contact and that's it. I guess they found an oil slick and little bits of the pilot's helmet and a couple other things. That's all they ever found. We really didn't get a lot of information, so we were kind of in the dark all these years. There was never any finality to this story. It was traumatic for us and just we really had no closure. My mom and dad grieved for many years, and we all did. But a mother and has a close attachment to her children, as you know, a special attachment.

CO: Of course.

DT: So they went to their grave without getting anything. Matter of fact, on their headstone, they had his name inscribed on there as well as her own.

CO: What is it that the park ranger in Florida found? Describe some of the things that they uncovered?

DT: There was eight different items. The parachute, there was some parts, which this guy described as part of an aircraft because he, turns out, was on a on a carrier himself in the U.S. Navy and was quite familiar with all this stuff. And he knew the chute right away. And he felt that probably that that debris was lying under the sand since probably the hurricane of 1964 called Hurricane Dora. And it was washed up at that time and not discovered and then covered over again and then, just recently, the erosion from the recent storm — Hurricane Irma — probably uncovered it.

CO: But you say that it appears that he never deployed the parachute — it never opened?

DT: That was his interpretation from what he saw. He said that looks like the chute was never opened.

CO: Does that give you any sense of what your brother's last moments might have been?

DT: It does in a way, Carol. It does tell us I suppose that whatever happened was very quick. At least he didn't get out of the aircraft and drown at sea. It was just probably over in an instant — a horrible death, but quick. 60 years is a long time, and we've grieved for I remember on his birthday particularly every year, but it does give us some closure. I would like to go to that beach though and maybe stand there and just you know for myself.

CO: Will you get to recover those objects?

DT: Well, I'm hopeful. I have a call in to the sheriff's office; I’m supposed to get a call back perhaps tomorrow. But I'm hopeful they will give us the chute and we would like to have it. I'd like to have that and I'm 80-years-old, so I'm not going to live very long I suppose. But my daughters often, we spoke so much of him that they felt like they knew him. And you know they would like to have the chute and we have grandchildren. It would be nice momentum for them.

CO: I've seen a picture of him, a very handsome man.

DT: He was. He was handsome and I know the girls liked him. He was a big guy: 6’1, blond, blue-eyed, trim, didn't drink, didn't smoke. Well, he may have at one time, but when he started flying, he got away from that stuff. He went to St. Francis Xavier University in Antigonish, Nova Scotia. I remember reading his year book, I think my sister still has it. 1951, when he graduated, they had a little blurb in there for each student-graduate. The thing they had under Bary's name was “the grandest guy at X.”

CO: Dick, I really appreciate you sharing stories of Barry, and I hope you do get to reclaim those items. They sound really precious.

DT: Thank you.

CO: OK. Good to talk to you.

DT: Thank you very much.

JD: Dick Troy is the younger brother of Lieutenant William Thomas Barry Troy, a pilot with the Canadian Navy who disappeared in 1958. We reached Dick Troy in Santa Monica. And if you'd like to see a photograph of Lieutenant Troy, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Edmonton attack, Warmbier coroner

Edmonton attack

Guest: Mahamad Accord

JD: As you've been hearing on the news, or heard on the news, there was an attack on a police officer and several pedestrians over the weekend in Edmonton. Soon after the attack, Edmonton’s Somali community released a statement, quote, “We feel it's important to make it absolutely clear that this individual has no place in our community.” Unquote. And the individual they're talking about is the suspect, 30-year-old Abdulahi Hasan Sharif, a Somali refugee. He is now facing charges of attempted murder, dangerous driving and possession of a weapon. Authorities say that Mr. Sharif drove a Chevy Malibu into a police barricade, striking an officer before exiting the vehicle and stabbing the officer. Allegedly, he went on to drive a U-Haul truck into four pedestrians in downtown Edmonton. Mahamad Accord is the former president of the Canadian Somali Congress of Western Canada. We reached him in Edmonton.

CO: Mr. Accord, when you learned the suspect that this attack in Edmonton was a Somali refugee, how did you react?

MAHAMAD ACCORD: Wow! How did I react? My heart sank because we have been dealing with so many issues within the community here. They used death and violence, we didn't need another drama. So it makes our job here difficult. What can I say? It really hurt me. And that's not only me, but everybody here in Edmonton feels the same way.

CO: Did you recognize the photo of this man or his name — Abdulahi Hasan Sharif? Do you know who he is or recognize him from any communities?

MA: No, no, actually, I didn't. He's not somebody that most of the people know. I think he was those people who are below the radar.

CO: He wasn't outspoken in any way? No one knows of him making any proclamations on behalf of Islamic State or anything like that?

MA: No, not so far. Actually, we're surprised because since the wave of the youth left Edmonton in 2015-2014, we have another indication that there was activity in such a thing like ISIS or any extremism. So it's clearly caught us off-guard. And also, most of the people that were afraid that they will be recruited into the ISIS or extremism ideology will be the young people who came here as the young or who are Canadian-born. We never thought somebody who came as an adult will ever be being inducted into this ideology.

CO: And we’ll just remind people that, again, he's a suspect and nothing's been proven in court, but he's been arrested. There's a joint statement the Edmonton Somali community put out this you call this a cowardly terrorist act. You commend the bravery of the responding officers in preventing the loss of life. And in this statement — in this letter — you make it clear that the suspect has no place in the Somali community. Why was it important for you to make that statement to make that so clear?

MA: I think the reason why is we think the same as any other Canadians feel the same way. And also, the place that he was caught in the middle of the town that's where I live. So I could be anybody. I could be me or anybody in my community. He didn't care who it is, or what colour, or what the religion, or what. And also, I don't think so any Canadian. We are Canadian and we feel the same way. So that's the reason why it's more important for us because he’s originally Somali. He practiced Islamic faith. None of those i0s relevant when it comes to Canadian because we all Canadian. We feel the same way, so we have to express what we feel as a Somali-Canadian.

CO: There’s a lot of information coming out about who Mr. Sharif is — who he might be. What are you learning about him?

MA: We're learning so far that most of those people who interacted with him it seems that he has a mental issue. That the majority of people express they have a concern about his mental status. So that's what we are learning. And also, he's been known to the police.

CO: The authorities say that they do know him. He is known to police. In 2015, the RCMP investigated Mr. Sharif for, quote, “espousing extremist ideology.” He was not charged. On Saturday, police say they found an ISIS flag on a car windshield. So this is what we do know the police are saying. Do you know anything about his background? Where he came from? When he when he came from Somalia and what family he has here?

MA: He has no family members here in Edmonton. So far, what we are learning from him or what we’re learning from the people who are familiar with him. So far, it's very difficult to get his background and his situation here.

CO: If you're saying that this Mr. Sharif… what you've been able to learn is that he had no family here. He seemed to have no connections. He's not known to anybody. Just this kind of vague understanding they think he had mental problems. How would you describe perhaps how he was living? What may have been his life before he made this violent move?

MA: There is a lot of people in our community who have been through civil war. Who have witnessed horrendous acts any human can do to another human. When we came here, we deal with physical security or physical scars or anything, but we never deal with the mental issue. A lot of us in the community we have seen it. Those will come to us in our community centre or community avenue get help. Some people like him because he didn't have a family support, or nobody asked, that's why he have a challenge in getting to address his issue.

CO: Do you think that if police had come to your community, had come to you and said look, we can't charge this man with anything, but we're worried about him. Do you think that people could have helped him? That you or others could have helped Mr. Sharif?

MA: Yes, that's what we’re saying. If somebody in the community or the law enforcement had dealt with this person they see he needed help. They could have referred him to us. We have resources within our community to deal with people like that — we’re already dealing with that. So what I'm saying to you is that’s some of the concern we have from the law enforcement. Is they have a people like that, who they have a concern. They cannot charge him, but they have a concern of his mental status. They could come to us or get the attention of the leaders so that such a person can get help. This person he somehow fell through the cracks. Nobody in the community brought him to our attention and nobody from the law enforcement also kept in touch with us.

CO: Alright, we’ll be following this story. Mr. Accord, I really appreciate you telling us all this today about the community. Thank you.

MA: Thank you, Carol.

JD: Mahamad is the former president of the Canadian Somali Congress of Western Canada. We reached Mr. Accord in Edmonton.

[Music: Classical guitar]

Warmbier coroner

Guest: Lakshmi Sammarco

JD: Otto Warmbier was a 21-year-old University of Virginia student when he was arrested in North Korea. He was accused of stealing a propaganda poster. He was sentenced to 15 years of hard labour. After 17 months in detention, he was returned to the United States in a coma. He died in June, shortly after his return. Last week, his parents went on Fox News and said their son had been tortured. Here's part of what they had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

FRED WARMBIER: As we looked at him and tried to comfort him, it looked like someone had taken a pair of pliers and rearranged his bottom teeth. Within two days of Otto being home, his fever spiked to 104 degrees. He had a large scar on his right foot. North Korea is not a victim, they’re terrorists.

CINDY WARMBIER: They destroyed him.

FW: They purposely and intentionally injured Otto.

JD: Those are the parents of Otto Warmbier, speaking on Fox News last week. Now, the coroner who examined Mr. Warmbeir's body has come forward to talk about her findings. We reached Dr. Lakshmi Sammarco in Cincinnati.

CO: Dr. Sammarco, how did the results of your examination compare with what you just heard Otto Warmbier’s father say on TV?

LAKSHMI SAMMARCO: We did a virtual autopsy, which is a C.T. scan of the body. We had a forensic odontologist, which is a forensic dentist, take a look at the images of the mandible and the lower teeth. We reconstructed them in three dimensional technology and had him take a look at those images as well as the C.T. images. He felt that the changes in the teeth in the lower deck of teeth were due to developmental anomalies rather than trauma. And he told me, very frankly and very directly, that there was no evidence of trauma, so no dental trauma whatsoever.

CO: So no evidence that pliers had been used to rearrange the bottom teeth?

LS: We don't have any evidence of that based on the imaging that we have or the external examination that we did of Otto’s body.

CO: And this was a virtual autopsy. Why couldn't you do a real autopsy?

LS: The discussion is from the very beginning was how much will we gain from a conventional autopsy 15 months after what we understand was the insult. And looking at the imaging from April 2016 in North Korea, it was pretty apparent to us the severe brain damage — the severe anoxic encephalopathy — had occurred prior to that. And then on top of that, we did have to consider the family's objection to a conventional autopsy.

CO: They didn't want an autopsy?

LS: They did not.

CO: As well in that clip they said that there was a large scar on his foot. Did you see that?

LS: There was a sizable scar on his left foot, correct. Not the right foot, but the left foot. Yes there was and it wasn't a scar that we could explain. It was very well-healed, and it looked like it would have been within the last couple of years. So we made the assumption that it probably happened while he was in Korea.

CO: Were there signs of torture?

LS: Again, I've been asked that question several times. It depends on your definition of torture. We still don't know what happened to him to put him in to that anoxic encephalopathic state. But if by torture you mean broken bones and cuts and cigarette burns or fingernails being pulled and so forth. No, but there are a lot of horrible things you can do to a human being that don’t leave signs. Something very horrible happened to him to cause the anoxic encephalopathy. What that specific event was, we have no idea?

CO: Do you have any idea how long he had been in the vegetative state?

LS: All I can go by is the last video that we saw in the middle of April, to the date of the MRI scan from April. Something happened to Otto. His skin was actually very well-nourished and was in very good condition. It was in excellent condition. We did not see any evidence of skin breakdown or bed sores or pressure sores or anything like that when we received him.

CO: Would that indicate that despite whatever put him in that state, that he had reasonable medical care while he was in North Korea?

LS: I don't know about the medical care, but I would say that physical care or nursing care would have been pretty extensive to be able to maintain that condition.

CO: What do you think could have caused the vegetative state? Just to hypothesize what kinds of things could put him in that state?

LS: The types of things that cause global anoxic encephalopathy would be interruption of blood flow to the brain, or cessation of breathing. And it could be anything from cardiac arrest to suffocation to over sedation.

CO: Why do you think that Otto Warmbeir’s parents are so insistent that he was tortured?

LS: You know, they're grieving parents and I can't even imagine their pain and the nightmares that they've had for so many months. I mean over a year of not knowing what was happening to their baby — to their child — and everybody grieves differently. And I think that they have to obtain an equilibrium for themselves, and they have to be allowed to grieve in whatever way they can so that they can they can live with this. They can they can live with the loss of you know their precious son.

CO: And yet, they seem to be being used politically. U.S. President Donald Trump called the Warmbeir’s appearance on that show on Fox a “great interview”, and said that their son Otto was, quote, “tortured beyond belief”, and that this is being said in the midst of some pretty serious saber rattling between North Korea and the United States that suggests the possibility of nuclear war. So did that influence your decision to come forward and say what you knew?

LS: You know, we have kept silent about the circumstances of this case and our role in it, other than a press statement very early on saying that we had received him out of deference to the family. But when there were facts being provided to international media, when there were statements being made we thought we believed, and I believe, that the facts should be presented and the chips should fall as they will, but based on facts. As far as any political motive, you know the president and the State Department obviously have more information than we do about what happened to Otto. So we can only go based on our examination of Otto and the C.T. scans and the medical records that have been provided to us. So any more information that the president and State Department have I defer to them. They have access to that and we don’t. And so statements being made by the president and the State Department I would assume are going to be based on the information that they have.

CO: Alright. Dr. Sammarco, I appreciate you coming on the program. Thank you.

LS: Absolutely. Thank you very much.

JD: Dr. Lakshmi Sammarco is the Hamilton County coroner. We reached Dr. Sammarco in Cincinnati. And we do have more on this story on our Website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Light rock]

Cedell Davis obit

JD: If you've ever tried to learn to play guitar, you will know it is not easy. You have to really, really want to learn. You really have to really want to play. Or else you just give up. And that's if you have the full use of both your hands. Arkansas bluesman Cedell Davis did not. As a kid, he contracted polio, which partly paralyzed his arms and his legs. He just restrung his guitar though, he picked up a butter knife to use as a slide and he played. 21 years later, a fight broke out while he was playing a show in St. Louis. He was trampled… nearly to death… never walked again, but he kept playing. Cedell Davis died last week. He was 91-years-old. On YouTube, there's a video of an interview Mr. Davis gave back in 1983. Here's a bit of it, in which Mr. Davis explains how he developed his style.

SOUNDCLIP

CEDELL DAVIS: Well in 1936, when I was ten-years-of-age I was taken by polio. And I had to go to the hospital and get two operations. Well, when I've got out, I couldn't use my hands. I still don't know how to fully use my hands. But my mother had several knifes and I kind of took one and kept messing around with the guitar until I learned to play like that. Left-handed, strings upside down and left handed because I didn't have full use of my right hand. So I had to turn it around, use the butter knife and I developed it, so no one else can do it but me so far.

JD: There's no false modesty there. But Jimbo Mathis, who played with Cedell Davis made his former bandmate’s ingenuity even clearer. In an interview with KUAR Radio in Little Rock, Arkansas, he said, quote, “If you look at his technique, the slide is facing an entirely different way. The guitar is upside down and strung upside down and backwards. The slide — the only way he was able to hold the butter knife — is facing up at an angle toward the top of the fretboard. Up and towards the headstock. It's like a reinvention of the guitar.” Unquote. Cedell Davis played juke joints throughout the American South for decades before the New York Times music critic Robert Palmer heard a couple of his songs. Mr. Palmer was so astonished and impressed, that he produced Mr. Davis’s his first full-length album “Feel Like Doing Something Wrong”. It was released in 1994, nearly 60 years after Cedell Davis had grabbed that butter knife and restrung and reinvented the guitar. Cedell Davis at a bunch of concerts coming up this year. He couldn't play guitar anymore — he had had a stroke in 2005. But he kept singing and he kept performing and, as he told The Believer magazine this past February, quote, “I've had polio, I've had stroke, I've had high blood, everything in the book almost. Everything in the book, but I'm still around here.”

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Part 3: Catalan vote, Samim Bigzad

Paddock brother

JD: We are learning more about the man who committed the shooting in Las Vegas. His name is Stephen Paddock. He lived in a retirement community near Las Vegas. He had no criminal history. And according to his family, he gave no indication that he was planning a shooting. Here is Stephen Paddock’s brother, Eric, speaking to reporters outside his home.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIC PADDOCK: The fact that my brother did this is… there's no… there's nothing. There's not even anything I can say. I mean my brother did this. This is like it was done…. you know, like he shot us. I mean If he’d have killed my kids, I couldn't be more dumbfounded. There's nothing, there's nothing. I mean I can show you the text. He said you know how's Mom? Did you get power? That was it. Not an avid gun guy at all, the fact that he had those kind of weapons is... where the hell did he get automatic weapons? We’re shocked, horrified, completely dumbfounded. I don't have any other words but what I’ve said. I mean if there was anything I could have done, I would have done it.

JD: That was Eric Paddock, speaking to reporters about his brother, Stephen, whom police say was the gunman who opened fire on a concert in Las Vegas yesterday.

[Music: Ambient]

Catalan vote

Guest: Jose Ramon Garcia Hernandez

JD: Catalan leaders called it a landslide victory. Late last night, the regional government announced that 90 per cent of voters said yes to independence from Spain. But for the Spanish government, the results were null and void. The vote itself was considered illegitimate. And Spain's constitutional court had even ordered the referendum cancelled. And then there was the violence. Spanish national police raided polling stations, and were pictured dragging people out who were trying to cast votes. Jose Ramon Garcia Hernandez is the Secretary for International Affairs for Spain's governing People's Party. We reached him in Manchester, UK.

CO: Mr. Garcia Hernandez, people around the world were shocked by what they saw the police do. The police actions in Catalonia on the weekend, is this really what Spanish democracy looks like?

JOSE RAMON GARCIA HERNANDEZ: Unfortunately, you have all the wrong doings of the Catalans and democracies should go with the respect of law. And, unfortunately, we have people who decided not to comply with the law — something with no precedent. And the people govern and people in office should be the one — the first one — to give an example and to comply with the law. And we saw the Catalonian authorities not to do so.

CO: So you watched it. You saw what was going on you. You find it disturbing, but you say you can support it?

JRGH: When you have violence… I mean violence is always a failure. But when you have to defend democracy, you have to know where you are. I am very respectful and I greatly admire what Canada has done through two world wars. And I’m very happy to use violence in order to protect what you thought it was the right thing to do. And it was democracy in the First World War, and it was democracy against totalitarianism in Second World War.

CO: But, Mr. Garcia Hernandez, you want us to talk about Canada and you say you respect it for how it’s governed itself in the past. We've had referendums in this country. Quebec has had them, they've held them for independence. And we didn't send the police in to shut down polling stations, and to drag people out.

JRGH: Because you do that through the constitutional system. We were hoping to do that through the constitutional system. Our Constitution also allows referendum.

CO: Can we make it clear? You're referring to you wanted a Spanish-wide referendum that all of Spain would vote in?

JRGH: That’s how our Constitution. You have your constitutional system. And according to your constitutional system, the Quebec Referendum, and various others, has been carried out.

CO: What we're dealing with is what we saw on the weekend, is that people in Catalonia held a vote that they claimed was legitimate and didn't Democratic. You can say that's not the case. The thing what we saw was police jumping on top of people who were just sitting there. We saw women being dragged up by their hair. We saw their heads bleeding. We saw extraordinary violence against people who were trying to protect their polling stations. Don't you think this this has created a backlash against the Spanish government — against Madrid?

JRGH: Yeah, that’s very sad, but it is not me. We haven't sent the people out of the streets in a demonstration of power to defy democracy. And that's what is at stake. And then, of course, the images are extremely. And I agree on that. I wouldn’t like them to happen. But we’ve been forced to go there because I mean should the Catalonian independent authorities have not people going out on the streets for an illegal fact, this wouldn't have happened. And also, keep in mind also, that the regional police force was the one that should have carried out the scene. They didn't fulfill the task completely. And then, of course, it's very sad, but when you have to defend democracy, you have to defend democracy. We have to defend the law.

CO: OK, but the people who didn't go through with a vote is because they were threatened with being arrested.

JRGH: No, no, no.

CO: We talked to people in those cities. They were talking about what the police — what the authorities — were doing in Catalonia.

JRGH There's one thing I do not deny: there are at least two million independents in Catalonia. They want independence, of course. And you can have your opinion of law, but the only thing that you cannot do to the law is to disobey the law. And I think in all our rule of law systems, we have that very clear. But there are another five million people there who didn't turn to vote. Who consistently haven’t said anything because people are starting to be fed up of politics and all these independents.

CO: Alright. Now, because of the results you can say the vote wasn't clear because people didn't vote. Lots of them couldn't vote. They didn't have polling stations; you’d shut them down. But now, you have the situation where the government of Catalonia is saying that they've had the referendum and they're going to go ahead and declare independence. How will Spain — how will Madrid — react to that?

JRGH: So you realize that this is a farce, where the Catalonian independent authorities had already the history set. Saying now we are calling for the parliament to call for independence. If you paid attention to that, and I don't know how acquaintance you are with the whole process, the Catalonian authorities haven't said — not yesterday and not today — that they are going to call for independence. Because if they do so, they commit a crime — a penal crime.

CO: And how will the authorities respond to that?

JRGH: And then the justice will have to act.

CO: OK. In what way? No sir, just tell me before we go?

JRGH: I don't know because I'm not a judge. We're not political interference. Then we are a democracy — a consolidated democracy — there is a separation of power. The judicial power act independently, but then it's a crime for those who call for any legal action while in government. For the last two days, we haven't heard the word “independence”. All we’ve heard is this saying this will happen within the referendum. And we’ll end up with what the parliament will provide. So now, we are in this game where all independents are trying not to take the flak because they know the consequences. We're open for dialogue.

CO: Just a simple of “yes” or “no” to this question: If the Catalan government declares independence, goes ahead with this vote, will Spain react with force to stop it? Yes or no?

JRGH: No, no, we foresee it will be the judicial system who would have to act.

CO: Mr. Garcia Hernandez, thank you for speaking with us.

JRGH: Thank you very much.

JD: Jose Ramon Garcia Hernandez is the Secretary for International Affairs for Spain's governing People's Party. We reached him in Manchester.

[Music: Elevator music]

From Our Archives: Monty Hall obit

JD: He presided over one of the most ludicrous game shows of all time. And somehow, Monty Hall managed to do it not just with a sense of humor, but with a sense of dignity. Mr. Hall was the co-creator and the long-time host of “Let's Make a Deal”, the game show where contestants in outlandish costumes would take part in a mind-boggling array of mini games. And eventually, they would pick door number 1, door number 2, or door number 3. And they would either win the big prize, or the booby prize. Monty Hall died Saturday at his home in Beverly Hills. He was 96-years-old. The Winnipeg-born host began his broadcasting career in Toronto before moving to the U.S. in the 1950s. He pitched “Let's Make a Deal” to NBC Television in 1963. The show was an immediate hit, and the original version ran for 23 years on all three U.S. broadcast TV networks. It was the first time the host of his show went into the audience to pick the contestants. The show made Mr. Hall into a TV megastar. Outside the studio, Monty Hall raised millions for Variety Clubs International and other causes. In 1988, he received the Order of Canada for his charitable work. And in May of that year, when he was in Ottawa to receive that honor, he spoke with the late Peter Gzowski. From the CBC Radio archives, here is part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

MONTY HALL: What people didn't realize — and I've done a thousand interviews with columnists trying to convince them — that this was not a greed show with greedy people, dressed up like idiots as they used to describe them. These were doctors and lawyers…

PETER GZOWSKI: No, they weren’t! Really?

MH: Oh yes, doctors and lawyers and teachers and plumbers and butchers and what have you. But once they got into a costume, they assumed the role of the person who they were dressed like. And so if somebody dressed like a pirate, he could have been a very mild attorney. When he was a pirate, he was a pirate.

PG: You're awfully nice too to recycle the stories, which must be so familiar with you. And as you say, you don't know how many columnists you've had to say this isn’t a greed show. And to do this on this week when people are paying attention to the other part of your life, which is all the work that you've done.

HM: I do 100 performances a year for charity — telethons and banquets and auctions. But you know there are no shortage of causes. I'm talking about humanitarian causes. I'm not a political animal. This is for kids, you know? sick kids, handicapped kids, underprivileged kids and then there are a thousand diseases. Each one of them is a vital, important part of the life and concern of that child or those parents.

PG: I'm assuming that everyone listening to you this morning knows that your kid from Winnipeg, who grew up there, did a lot of Canadian broadcasting, got into game shows. But I never heard this story about you, which I read in a clipping this morning. And I don't expect you to review it now, but this is the week you're becoming an officer of the Order of Canada. I read that you had dropped out of school, went to work in the garment business and then somebody said you should go back to university. Described as a wealthy Manitoban, whose name you've never revealed, but who did that and put some bucks up so you could go back to school.

HM: It was one of those Horatio Alger stories, where I was delivering something from my wholesale clothing house to his manufacturing plant, and he saw me he said why aren't you at college? And I smiled at him and said well, I had to drop out after my freshman year? So he met my father later, and he said I saw your boy delivering some parcels. Why isn't he at college? My father says well, we don't have any money; he can't afford to go to college. I mean tuition was $150 a year then. And the rest of the story follows: It was a fantastic story — a fantastic gesture — by a man who knew me casually, just knew me by name. And he said I'll stake you, providing you do the following things. This is what makes the story interesting! He said you must maintain an “A” average. He said I want you to report to me every month and show me your grades. He said you had to promise that you will never tell anybody where you got the money, and you will promise that you will do this for somebody else someday. Now, those guidelines are pretty traffic... Oh, and he said you'll pay back the money. But you don't hear stories like that today. Well, his investment, may I tell you, has put a lot of kids through college.

PG: Monty, congratulations again. Officer of the order of Canada, thank you for coming by this morning.

JD: That was Peter's Gzowski in conversation with Monty Hall, host of “Let's Make a Deal”. That's from 1988. Monty Hall died Saturday. He was 96-years-old.

[Music: Cultural]

Samim Bigzad

Guest: Samim Bigzad

JD: The story of his deportation order… or orders… made headlines around the world. In August, we told you about Samim Bigzad. Mr. Bigzad is an Afghan asylum seeker in the UK. He was twice forced on the flights to be deported. But after campaigners told passengers and crew about the risks Mr. Bigzad faced back in Afghanistan, the Turkish Airlines pilot of the first flight reportedly refused to take off with him on board. Mr. Bigzad was ordered deported a second time. And that time it worked. He was flown to Kabul. But, after emergency court orders, and a lot of back and forth phone calls with lawyers, Samim Bigzad is now back in the UK. And he plans to apply once again for asylum. We reached Samim Bigzad in Ramsgate, UK.

CO: Mr. Bigzad, how does it feel to be back in the United Kingdom and not in Afghanistan?

SAMIM BIGZAD: When I come back I feel really great. I'm really happy. It's like my home and I come back to meet my dad. I'm just really happy.

CO: Your dad is not very well. You've been taking care of him, is that right?

SB: Yes, of course. He has a mental problem and basically needs me. I'm trying my best to look after my dad. I'm just fine.

CO: He's a British citizen. I understand that his health problems come from the treatment and the torture he received at the hands of the Taliban when he was captured by them, is that right?

SB: Yes, there is definitely a lot of mental problem. And I'm the only one to look after him.

CO: We have followed your case with many twists and turns since the beginning — since August, when you were put on the plane — the Turkish Airlines — plane for the first time. And can you describe what must have been a roller coaster ride of emotions for you?

SB: Well at first they said you have a flight when I was in detention center. I was just crying that time. I was really scared. I said I am not going, and I just called my cousin and my cousin told my dad and he's also crying. So they’re going to send me back to Kabul. You know, I escaped from my country because I was targeted. So if they send me back, they will target me again.

CO: And so we covered this in August, you were on that flight. But the pilot — the Turkish Airlines pilot — refused to fly you to Afghanistan — to take off with you onboard. Can you describe what happened?

SB: Well, they put me on the one, and they said you are going inside the plane. I said I'm not going. I was shouting and the Taliban is going to kill me. At that time, the pilot was there and he was witness. And the pilot said stop this guy, I'm not flying, this guy's life is in danger. So I'm not flying.

CO: When the pilot decided not to fly and take you back to Kabul, how did you feel about that?

SB: Well, I feel really happy, you know? I just said to the pilot thanks so much, you just saved my life. I come back, I called my dad and my dad became so happy. And he said well, everything will be fine.

CO: We wanted to talk to you at that time. We couldn't because they put you back in detention, and that's where you were when they came for you a second time. Can you tell us what happened?

SB: On that day, in the morning time, when I was sleeping, there was over five guys who came. They said Samim, you have. I told them the Home Office didn’t warn me. They didn't notice me. They didn't say anything, so how is this possible? So I told them so I need to call, they take my phone and they said walk with us, let's go.

CO: They won't let you call your lawyer?

SB: No, they didn’t want to let me call.

CO: And then they put you on the plane?

SB: Yeah, it was very quick.

CO: And we spoke with your roommate, and she said that she described that in the small time you had to speak. She said that they tried to cover your mouth on the plane to stop you from calling out, is that right?

SB: Yeah, they just covered my mouth when I was shouting, and they did not like this.

CO: Did any of the passengers come to your support, as they did the first time you were put on the plane?

SB: No. The last part of the plane was empty and there was no passengers. They said we did a plan for you because you know you’re shouting. The last part of the plane was empty; there was no passengers on it. They took my hands and locked up my hands. I was shouting. He punched me. He was just laughing at me, he said no one is there and we're going to send you to Kabul.

CO: What happened is it the message you got to your lawyer, he was able to get into a court and get an emergency court order that said that you were not to be deported — that you were not to leave on that aircraft. That word came to them in time. Why did they send you to Kabul anyways? Why did that flight continue with you on it?

SB: When I was sitting on the plane, after a couple of minutes, one of them had a phone call. The phone call was from the Home Office to say the judge decided to bring him back to the UK. We are going back to the UK, let's walk. So when we walk to the side doors, and then guy had a second call. The second call was the Home Office also. The Home Office said send him to Kabul. So at that time, I was very confused. I asked one of the guys what's happening? The judge decided to send me to the UK. So he pointed with his hands and he said Samim, look, my right hand is judge, my left hand is the Home Office. So we are following the direction of Home Office. So we will send you to Kabul.

CO: the Home Office, which is like our Foreign Affairs Department, they decided not to obey that court order, and in fact, the head of the Home Office — the Minister of Home Office — in the U.K., Amber Rudd, people are calling for her to be charged with contempt of court for doing that. But nonetheless, you ended up back in Afghanistan. For five days you were there before you could get back out. What was it like during those five days?

SB: When I when I arrived and without security guards, I said the hotel is not safe for me, please hold me in the embassy. And they said no, you are not safe for us. So when I was in the hotel, the hotel was like in the middle of the city, it's like a public area. After one night, I knew I’d decided I was not a safe place. Receptions was one guy, which is responsible for the hotel. He come to me and he said this past nights, there was people who came to ask about you. The reception told me that the veil — the traditional clothes of Afghanistan. With a gun and covered his face with black things. So they just keep asking you. The first time he asked he said there was a guy who deported from the U.K. And hed said yeah, there is one guy and he's sleeping. They said well, we just next time come and collect this guy and we kidnap him.

CO: So you were you were nearly kidnapped during those times. Someone tried to get at you.

SB: Yeah.

CO: You were in Kabul for five days before you could get out of there and get back to the U.K. Are you going to be able to stay in the United Kingdom? Or do you think you're going to try and deport you again?

SB: Yeah, I have a hope that I will fight my case and save my life. I have a hope I will do it.

CO: Well, we will keep in touch with you, Mr. Bigzad. And I hope you're well and you stay safe. But thank you for speaking with us.

SB: Thanks so much. Thanks so much. I'm just really happy to speak to you.

CO: Bye bye.

SB: OK. Thanks. Bye.

JD: Samim Bigzad is an Afghan asylum seeker in the U.K. We reached him in Ramsgate.

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October 2, 2017 episode transcript

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