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The Current Transcript for September 28, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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AI WEIWEI: As a dissident or as someone being exiled, it's in my blood to find out what's really going on about this topic.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: He was born the year his father was forced into exile, learning early on in China the power that art has to confront authority, to make the state uncomfortable, and to demand the world's attention. And so perhaps it's no surprise that celebrated artist and activist Ai Weiwei is using his creative voice to follow the human flow of the tens of millions of people fleeing war, oppression, and cruelty across the globe. He has filmed refugees, documenting desperation, and even joy. In a moment, Ai Weiwei joins me to talk about his film Human Flow, the power of art, and his own profound connection to people who risk everything in search of a better, safer life. Also today, a whole lot of history but nothing on paper.

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LAWRENCE HILL: Black people pay municipal property taxes. So it is appalling that people who have been on this land since the War of 1812, you know, still don't have unequivocal title to land that they’ve been inhabiting.

AMT: Author Lawrence Hill's incredulity is echoed by people in five Nova Scotia communities, who can trace their black ancestral heritage to the 1800s, even the 1700s. And yet many have been denied ownership of the land where they have lived for generations. Now the province has plans and money to fix that. Will it work? We're asking in an hour. And he was a ten-year-old boy still trying to get used to the fact that he'd lost both legs in an accident when the phone rang in his cousin's house.

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I could barely speak, you know, and I just remember calling Patrick and saying uh uh uh it’s Rick Hansen on the phone.

AMT: How the Man in Motion helped get the gears turning for the boy who would grow up to become elite athlete Patrick Anderson, the world's best wheelchair basketball player. That story in half an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current.

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'Human crisis': Ai Weiwei's documentary showcases plight of refugees

Guest: Ai Weiwei

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AI WEIWEI: Yeah, just going those kids walking there. Yeah, that’s him, I want to interview him. Where’s your daddy or mom?

CHILD: My dad and mom is in Afghanistan. I’m with my aunt. They are in Afghanistan, I’m with my aunt, I’m here because they don’t have money to come here.

AI WEIWEI: Do you miss them?

CHILD: Yeah, I miss them. They are in Afghanistan.

AI WEIWEI: You’re such a smart boy, you must be a very good student in school.

CHILD: Yeah, thank you. I am in first position in school.

AMT: The sound of two very different worlds encountering each other, the great Chinese artist Ai Weiwei meeting a young Afghan refugee at a refugee camp in Europe. Ai Weiwei has been getting to know a lot of refugees around the world of late. That meeting was from a film about the making of his new film Human Flow. The documentary was filmed on the frontlines of the global refugee and migration crisis and it took him to 23 different countries. It is a subject very close to his heart. As a dissident and activist, he has tasted exile more than once in his life, including today. After being surveilled, arrested, jailed and beaten by the Chinese government Ai Weiwei and his family now live in Berlin, Germany. He's in Canada to receive the Adrienne Clarkson Prize for Global Citizenship at 6 Degrees Citizen Space, an event hosted by the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. And it is a pleasure to welcome Ai Weiwei to our Toronto studio. Hello.

AI WEIWEI: Hello.

AMT: I was very moved by your film, but I also found it very disturbing, I couldn't stop thinking about it. Is that what you wanted?

AMT: It's a film not to please people but rather to alarm the society. What kind of time we’re in and what kind of potential human crisis can develop.

AMT: 23 countries.

AI WEIWEI: Yeah, and 40 camps, 900 hours of footage, 600 interviews. It brought me a more profound knowledge about the so-called refugee crisis. Under the history and the geographical difference, refugees can be defined as war casualties, also can be environmental problem and famine and a lot are religious problems. So it's a very broad topic and it affects everybody.

AMT: You call it a human crisis not a refugee crisis.

AI WEIWEI: Yes I think this is in every respect is a human crisis. And not only telling the story about the one who is victimized, also telling the story of 21st century, the world, let this happen, right in front of our eyes. And not come up a clear resolution, our leaders are not even have the vision and courage to stop crisis like this.

AMT: You say it was very profound for you. I'm wondering if it also made you cry sometimes?

AI WEIWEI: I'm a sentimental person. You know, I can easily have tears when I see the situation. But this is much deeper than that. It's really touches very deep understanding about who we are and how we can, our society can really live together. And that to see all those the values we treasure the most can easily be deteriorated and also be betrayed. So it's more than just sadness, sometimes it's anger, sometimes it’s disappointment. But still I believe individuals possibility because I think in every individual's mind and heart there's a universe that can be clearly defined and be through our act, our behaving, we can tell the world who we are and what kind of world we want to be.

AMT: For those who have not yet seen this film, because it's not available yet everywhere, but it will be soon. Give us a sense of the scope of this project. What did you, beyond the actual countries and everything else, in terms of shooting and what you were trying to bring to the fore?

AI WEIWEI: The film started as a personal journey. I went to Lesbos, which is a Greece island, about almost a million refugees come from Turkey and landed in this Greece island. Then they start to walk through the Balkan road, you know. And then go to Turkey to see what's it like, because about three million refugees are settled or deported, you know, into that nation, which already is very troublesome with it’s own civil wars, you know, against the Kurdish people. And then it brought us to Lebanon, Jordan, has a long history in dealing with refugees, and also not only in the past with Palestinians but also with Syrians and today. And then Israel, Gaza, and then we sent teams to Bangladesh, which is still developing in shocking speed. In the past months or so over 420,000 refugees has been pushed away from their home.

AMT: The Rohingyan refugees.

AI WEIWEI: Yeah, then the one thing we cannot avoid to go is Africa. So we went to Kenya, see the camps there, has been a long time even forgotten because of the Syrian war. But the refugees there are in very crucial condition and the environmental situation is getting worse. And, you know, the population is getting bigger. So it is going to be the next wave of refugees and a still, now what happened in Yemen. And, you know, the refugees across the Mediterranean Ocean to Italy, which already have about 4-5,000 people dead in this year alone. So it's all shocking numbers. And then you have, you cannot avoid to go to Iraq, which war created by Americans. And the war still going on, the casualties is tremendous, because the war creates extremists such as, you know, still active in many many cases. And Afghanistan, the long-time war between, you know, also America involved, Russia was involved, and Pakistan. And many other places in Europe, Germany, and Calais in Paris, and Italy. So it's many many locations, very very broad view about refugee condition. Of course it's not never complete because it’s just one artist’s effort, everything in one year. And we start knowing nothing about refugee situation, completely from zero. So that's how it started.

AMT: And you go, as an artist, you go very very wide and you show us the scope of it and then you go very very small. And we see their faces up close. You’re, talk to me about how you use those images and you juxtapose them.

AI WEIWEI: As a film structure, to cope with such a broad and complex story, so we have to design a visual structure, under how to telling the story, not to get the audience totally lost. But at the same times to reflects the real condition. You can see this whole film is a broken mirror. So every pieces reflects the reality. And then also functions more like a poetry, sentence, vocabulary, and a paragraph, and it jumps. And but structures a huge amount of sensitivity, emotion, and texture, colours, and beautiful scenery, and a sad sad human face, you know, detailed children's and the women and the desperate conditions in those camps. So you have so many senses put together as it become a blanket of such a very very dense and textured condition.

AMT: You have spoken about growing up in a communist country in how you see, how you can show the collective and the individual. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?

AI WEIWEI: Yes I, the society I grew up basically there's no individual. There’s always being seen we are unified for one ideology, for one nation, one idea. So that kind of thinking defines what authoritarian society is about. And I grew up in this kind of society, and know how those power functions and how individual, why individual [unintelligible] doesn't function in society. My father was victimized by being a poet. And his generation millions of people has been crushed without a single voice can be heard. So that gave me some kind of perspective in how those people in power are trying to dismiss the senses of individual, which is most dangerous for this kind of society. But at same time, you look at the world more broad, in the more, you know, you have a world point of view always trying to figure out what is the reason, what is, you know, you have this kind of critical thinking, you know, how those refugees become a refugee? What is the reason? You know, how those can be stopped? You have to come out this kind of thinking.

AMT: You have, again, you did this in other places in your art is well, with the sunflower seeds. It's one big installation but it's individual little porcelain seeds.

AI WEIWEI: Yeah, the seeds consists about a hundred million individual pieces made by hands independent years with thousands of craftmen. And each of them are different, none of the two are the same. But in this massive exhibition it looks identical and structured a large massive installation for people to experience it. Is always have struggled to think from a visually or to trying to imagine how those words relate to the real life.

AMT: There's a shot I keep thinking about in your, in Human Flow, I thought I was looking at a full screen of what looked like some kind of a screen or a barrier with little ants or flies walking on it. And the camera gets closer and closer and then I realized to my horror that I'm looking from above, the camera’s above and it's descending, and those lines that I think are a screen are actually individual, all uniform squares of refugee shelters and those things moving in between are the refugees moving in between. It's shocking.

AI WEIWEI: It is shocking. But it offers you perspective, how fragile the human condition can be. You know, we are often over exaggerating our own existence, because we think we are most powerful and we’re masters of the Universe, and we often have these kind of wrong wrong illusions. But it come to a certain point, we’re just like ants or we are almost invisible. So it's really matter of perspective. How we look at ourself and how the examine our positions in the much larger landscape and towards nature, and, you know, planet. And then we have to balance out our decisions and then to have respect for others.

AMT: You talk about respect a lot. At one point we see you, you're joking with the man, you're trading passports, and you give him your Chinese passport, he gives you his Syrian passport. And you're smiling and then you said to him I respect you.

AI WEIWEI: Yes, I said I respect you, I respect your passport. And ironically, his passport even he values the most during this kind of escape. It means nothing. Nobody would recognize that passport. And my passport, I just get for a few months, before for years the authorities would never give this personal identification paper to me.

AMT: Talk to me a little bit about why identity matters so much then? What you saw, the people you met going through, and how you relate to that as a man who has experienced so much exile yourself?

AI WEIWEI: Identity is such a profound question we all face. Doesn't matter rich or poor or fortunate or unfortunate people or high position or lowest bottom of the society. We all face an identity questions or crisis it can be. So you see nation like United States or Germany, now, or England, extremely troubled by self-identity. What values that society represent and who is speaking. And in those values, you know, in defining those values whose rights has been violated, would never be heard of, and who is defending what? So all those things make, not only make we understand ourself but also make how the other people judge about us. And which is very essential form for life or for being, to have those identity. Because that's the form of life. It's the course, the life itself. So the whole struggle about nationality, border, and fences, really is part of our self-identity.

AMT: It's interesting huh, when a whole mass of humanity is denied an identity, those who think they can hold an identity in a piece of paper try to like put walls around that identity.

AI WEIWEI: If anyone’s identity being ignored or to be, you know, to see as not as important, that is really threaten situation to human as a whole. The humanity is one thing, it cannot be separated. Men, women all created equal. This is a very fundamental idea about human being as identity itself. But once someone being pushed or excluded because the nationality, because of their religion, because different language, that only hurt everybody because it touches the very fundamental beliefs about who we are.

AMT: I am speaking with artist Ai Weiwei. We are going to continue our conversation right after the CBC News. And we're going to talk about questions Ai Weiwei’s own son asked him about the refugee crisis. Questions he doesn't have answers for. He has a willingness to talk about it though. In the meantime go to our website to see photos and video of Ai Weiwei, and a trailer for his film Human Flow. We also took a selfie together. He takes the selfie. You can find that on my Instagram amtremonti. Stay with us the CBC News is next. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on podcast, and on your radio app.

[Music: Extro]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, the land has been in their families for generations, they've been paying the property tax on it for years, so why is it that so many African Nova Scotians don't have legal title to their land? That story is coming up in half an hour. But first back to the staggering flow of refugees through an artist's lens.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: My guest is the artist and activist Ai Weiwei. And we have been discussing his new documentary Human Flow and the thinking behind it. The film chronicles the global refugee and migration crisis, he calls it a human crisis, in all its enormity and urgency. If you missed the first part of our conversation before the news, you'll be able to find it on our website at cbc.ca/thecurrent or through the CBC Radio app. And there's much more to talk about now. I want to ask you a little bit more about humanity, because you go out of your way in this film to show us joy amongst refugees who are really suffering and really feeling isolated, but you find moments of joy as well. Why was that important to you?

AI WEIWEI: That joy is about who we are. If you’re cold then you need a cup of tea in any place, you know, you need a jacket, if your socks are wet, you want to give your dry pair to your son because you feel that will cause him coughing whole night. And if you see somewhere is leaking, running, maybe you think oh it’d be nice to have a light in the night time, but they don't have a light at nighttime in many of the camps. So when they're holding these first refugee, the film cannot tell but I can tell, that guy has no arm, just one arm. So then you think about what happens when a young man just have one arm and what kind of future can that man has? So all those things are so essential, you know, end of the film in Iraq, this man also walking with one arm. And if those things doesn't touch us, doesn't raise questions about all those are warfare, you know, all those arms selling, you know, all those crazy craziness, you know, about nuclear you know, bombs still existing. And if we don't ask those questions why? Why we cannot get rid of it? Then you are already ready to accept all those horrible conditions is going to happen for next generation and the generations to come. If we're not conscious about global environmental change, the ecosystem, then easily, very easily the mankind can be wiped out. This whole miracle can just come to the end. Then there’s nothing to talk about. The world, why we need freedom of speech? Because basically the world is silent, the Universe is silent. You know, we never find a planet and a species like human, and to talk about freedom of speech.

AMT: I want to ask you about your activism and the way you think, and the issues you want to bring forward. You could have been an activist of a different kind but you chose, or maybe you didn't, you chose art to bring these to the forefront. Was that a choice or was that just in you? Why do you?

AI WEIWEI: It happened to be just in me because my father was a poet. So I try to think if he's not a poet, if I don't grow up in this hardship with him, to be pictured as an enemy of the nation and not to follow him to clean all those public toilets, not to see him being [unintelligible] by my classmates, throw stones to him, and the right guard would pull the basket of ink from his head and to make him totally black, to come home at midnight. You know, through all those ironic conditions, I would never think I can become artist. Artist is not easy job. You know, I'm not a decoration just to make pretty images. I'm always learned about human condition and humanity and what moral and philosophical level we are in. And if we talk about [unintelligible] judgment what are we really talk about? So those things are so important for me, to hold on is to survive, you know, to find myself identity, to give my own practice a reason.

AMT: You talk about your father. You were you were like an infant when your father was forced into exile. You were born when he was in exile.

AI WEIWEI: I was born in the same year he was exiled. For 20 years he's not allowed to write words. And I grew up in these not refugee, but these kind of exile camps.

AMT: Do you think of yourself as a refugee today?

AI WEIWEI: I never really think that way but we have so many similar or identical qualities, such as being pushed away from your own country or language. And also you still have to fight for your own existence for quite some time. I never get recognized, like, I'm 60 but my first exhibition started 13 years ago, but before that time I was doing many other jobs, you know, with architects or as a construction builder and a street artist, babysitter, and house cleaning, do house cleaning quite often. And, you know, I have been through everything and I enjoyed every moment actually when I was doing it, you know, it brings me tremendous joy.

AMT: Well, and even after in those 13 years you have been arrested, you've been jailed. How many days was it you were in a cell with two guards who never left your side?

AI WEIWEI: I was being secretly detained, from taken from airport, they put a black hood over my head to take a secret military camp which nobody knows where, and two soldiers, military soldiers, stand in front of me, 80 centimetres away, look at me at 80 centimetres away, just stare at me without blink, 24 hours a day, even when I take a shower, they were still stay so close. And midnight standing right next to my bed, you know, the light is always up. So that's not most difficult. The most difficult is you start to feel you are at someone's hands, which make your life has no meaning, because they don't recognize your existence and you have absolutely no connection to anybody. Your mom doesn't know where you are. Not anybody, no lawyers you can contact. It just clearly tell you how vulnerable you are. It's kind of like a training or some kind of through this kind of abusive behaving. But to think about a state kidnapping their own citizens and only because I have different ideas about what a society should be. You know, I peacefully post those ideas on the internet. That bring me in such quite absurd situation.

AMT: Can you go back to China now? Or would you?

AI WEIWEI: I’m a Chinese citizen. I have a Chinese passport, that means I can go back to China but two of my lawyers serving sentence, One is five years, one is over ten years and it clearly tells me and many many of my friends, activists, are in jail or hold without trial in secret place. So send me a clear signal they can do anything, it's unpredictable. That's the power of these kind of society, to let everybody know there is no law, there's no rule. Everybody is vulnerable.

AMT: That's where the refugees we meet in your film intersect with you, huh? So many of those people would have been jailed. They came from countries where they could disappear, no one would know.

AI WEIWEI: Yeah, they all have same sad story. Nobody even want to repeat because it's just beyond belief.

AMT: And so many children. I was really struck by the numbers of children in refugee camps.

AI WEIWEI: Around 65 million refugees, at least will be 20-30 million are children. Think about those children would have, you know, average refugees would have this status for over 20 some years. That's their life. So think about that generation growing up, they never learn anything. All they learned is how indifferent human or how crude different human can be. So what are you expect?

AMT: You brought your son with you when you shot some of this.

AI WEIWEI: I did. I often bring my son to experience, you know, it's real life, it's about his father. And I think it’s privilege to spend time with your children and show them real life.

AMT: How old is he?

AI WEIWEI: He, the time when we went to refugee camps, he was around almost six and now he's eight.

AMT: What kind of conversations have you had with him around the kinds of things that you showed him?

AI WEIWEI: I always carefully show him the reality, but the same time not to influence him, not to give my ideas to him. And I think children are smart enough to make their judgment and later those information may help them to look at the world.

AMT: What does he ask you?

AI WEIWEI: He of course many things could not, it’s beyond his understanding, you know, why, why those wars happening. It's beyond my understanding. You know, why people are so indifferent to other people's tragedy. You know, why we celebrate ourself but same time we know that celebration has casualties. And who can answer those things? I'm trying to learn those and I'm trying to cope with my learning.

AMT: And as you try to cope with your learning, those of us who watch this film are also learning new things and seeing through your eyes, and seeing what you've shown us. But I'm wondering what has this journey taught you? Or what has it made you ask maybe that you weren't asking before?

AI WEIWEI: It taught me several things. First I have a much deeper or profound understanding about the human condition in the global sense. It breaks through from Ai Weiwei as a dissident of Chinese authoritarian society into a global citizen. You know, to really see humanity in global condition. Which is so valuable for me because that always is something I always wanted to do, is to redefine humanity and human dignity in a much larger perspective. Which is challenging but it’s worth every bit of it.

AMT: Ai Weiwei, thank you for your work and your vision.

AI WEIWEI: Thank you so much to have me.

AMT :Ai Weiwei. His feature length documentary is called Human Flow, and it will be available on general release available in a couple of weeks. He's just been awarded the Adrienne Clarkson Prize for Global Citizenship. If you have been following Ai Weiwei’s work and his Instagram feed, you'll know he loves selfies. We took one together. His only rule is that he has to take it himself, like Rembrandt he told me, I have to take it for you. So you can see that and other pictures and video of us, you can see pictures of him and the documentary on the site cbc.ca/thecurrent. And look for our selfie on my Instagram amtremonti.

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How a life-changing phone call from Rick Hansen inspired a legendary paralympian

Guests: Maggie Baer, Patrick Anderson, Rick Hansen

[Music]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: This is The Current, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti.

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RICK HANSEN: I found a mentor, a special mentor, a fellow named Stan Strong. He was one of the first surviving people with spinal cord injury injured in the thirties. And when I complained about being in the hospital for four months, he was there for four years and he didn't have any rehab centres, and he really didn't have anything and yet he lived with this incredible optimism. He saw, in the pain and suffering, he saw beauty, he saw love, you know, he saw ability. And he ended up reaching out to the next generation of kids like me to say come on, you know, you don't have to stop here.

AMT: Canadian athlete, activist, philanthropist Rick Hansen last week reflecting on the 30th anniversary of his Man In Motion world tour and on the mentor who inspired him. After that we heard from several of you that Rick had been your inspiration. Maggie Baer sent in one of those letters. And she's with us from Ottawa. Hello.

MAGGIE BAER: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: Maggie would you read us the letter you sent please?

MAGGIE BAER: [chuckles] Sure. Back in the summer of 1989, my cousin was playing outside with his buddies just days before his tenth birthday. He was struck by a drunk driver and lost both legs below his knees. After three months recovering in the hospital, my cousin returned home, soon after I was visiting his house when I answered a phone call. Hello it's Rick Hansen, I'm calling to speak to Patrick. I remember feeling utterly starstruck. Rick chatted with Patrick for a long time and evidently inspired him, because my cousin went on to become the world's best ever wheelchair basketball player. Patrick Anderson has dominated the sport for 20 years now and captained Team Canada to multiple Paralympic gold medals and world championships. Rick, thank you for sharing your grace wisdom and hope with Pat and his family at a time of such darkness. You truly are a remarkable Canadian hero.

AMT: That is such a lovely letter Maggie. Tell me a little bit more. What was it like getting that call out of the blue?

MAGGIE BAER: Mhm. Well it was out of the blue. I mean, in 1989, Rick Hansen was at the peak of his fame.

AMT: He was a rock star. [laughs]

MAGGIE BAER: Absolutely rock star, yes. And so, you know, mundanely picking up the phone and then it's him, like what? And I could barely speak, you know, and I just remember, you know, making him and calling Patrick and saying uh uh uh, it’s Rick Hansen on the phone. And I think we all kind of tried to listen in on an extension, you know.

AMT: [laughs]

MAGGIE BAER: Yeah. And of course Rick gave the message that he talked about in the interview with you. About saying hey Pat, I was there, I know exactly what you're feeling. It's going to be hard but it's going to get better.

AMT: Well, we have also reached out to Patrick, your cousin, Patrick Anderson. He's at home in New York City. Hello Patrick.

PATRICK ANDERSON: Hi there. Hi Meg.

MAGGIE BAER: Hi Pat.

AMT: Patrick, what do you remember about that phone call?

PATRICK ANDERSON: Mostly that it was very surprising and, you know, say what you want about celebrity culture but, you know, when a celebrity with whom you identify calls you on the phone to give you a pep talk, it’s pretty memorable, powerful. So he sort of opened my eyes and expanded my horizons. And not only mine but I think my family and people around me too.

AMT: You weren't quite ten when that accident occurred. How did your world change? Talk to us about that.

PATRICK ANDERSON: In some ways it didn't change at all. Before my accident I played music and, you know, I sang songs and played sports and afterwards I sang songs and played sports. But the manner in which I did it sort of changed dramatically. You know, thinking about Rick makes me remember that, you know, a couple of years before, I guess it would have been the winter ‘87 when he's coming through Canada, we trekked up there as a school, it was before my accident, in the snow, and stood by the high school and watched him wheel by. And I think that kind of came back to me. And, you know, as an amputee there were certainly a lot of people at the time talking about prosthetics and about how important it was to get back up on my feet. And while I really appreciated that approach to rehab, I sort of [unintelligible] towards wheelchairs because they're just, I could keep up with my friends better. And I think, you know, him coming along as sort of a role model of somebody who did something very incredible in a wheelchair and sort of destigmatize that piece of sports equipment for me. And like he talked about in his interview about normalizing things, I mean, that can be a bracing experience for somebody with a disability to kind of be treated like a normal person because we can get kind of stuck in our cocoons or bubbles. But to get over that important part of becoming a high performance athlete. So yeah, he was huge.

AMT: Well I'm, it’s good to hear you say that because we have somebody else on the line listening right now. Rick Hansen, welcome.

MAGGIE BAER: Wow.

RICK HANSEN: Hey Anna Maria, great to talk to you and hey Patrick. It's so great to talk to you as well.

PATRICK ANDERSON: Hi Rick. Legitimately surprised.

RICK HANSEN: Hey and just got nothing but respect and admiration and, you know, Maggie thanks for bringing up, you know, our connection because I've been following your journey for all these years. Well, what you've done and what you’ve accomplished as an athlete, it's just spectacular. I mean, you know, truly you are the Steve Nash and the Michael Jordan of wheelchair basketball, and you make Canadians proud. And you've shown what ability is and, you know, you're just beautiful to watch on the court but you're also a fantastic human being. And, you know, you're a great Canadian. I'm just super proud of you. And again, Anna Maria, thanks for bringing me back into this conversation.

AMT: Well we couldn't resist. Rick, how often did you reach out to kids like Patrick? How did you even know about him?

RICK HANSEN: Well, you know, what happens is when you're a kid yourself and you're struggling and someone who's been there before takes time, you know, to come into your hospital bed or to visit you or to phone you, it inspires you. That's what happened to me. And, you know, people just call and, you know, they let me know about people who maybe need a little bit of encouragement. And you're there with an open heart and with an intention to try to make a difference. So for me I think I’ve gotten much more out of it than I've ever given because it's really stories like Patrick, where, you know, you just watch and you just go oh my gosh. Like, what an incredible success story.

AMT: Patrick, go ahead.

PATRICK ANDERSON: Sorry I didn't hear anything after Michael Jordan.

MANY VOICES: [laughing]

PATRICK ANDERSON: I just wanted to sit with that for a little bit. I mean that's very kind. It's a little bit overwhelming. But yeah, I mean, I'm sort of in a similar position to Rick now, without the fame. But, you know, well now I’m a big fish in a family pond that wheelchair basketball is to sports and maybe slightly bigger in the Paralympic movement. So I have an opportunity to reach out to people and Rick inspires me in that regard too.

AMT: Maggie, you have watched Patrick through all of this. How have you seen him be a role model?

MAGGIE BAER: Mhm. So I've seen him in you know a gymnasium full of elementary kids. First of all, before he even says anything he just, you know, wheels around and impresses them with his phenomenal skill, shooting from, you know, from the middle of the gym and sinking baskets and speeding around on the wheelchair and the kids are so amazed by that. They want to know how is this guy so good at basketball? And Pat has played professionally with able bodied players as well, it’s quite a wonderful sport. And I feel that Pat and his team have been, you know, Canada's best kept secret. And he, you know, make no mistake, he's made a difference and inspired lots of kids as well.

RICK HANSEN: What's impressive as well is, you know, Patrick is part of this movement. Wheelchair basketball's been, you know, so dominant in Canada largely because it's an inclusive sport. And Maggie mentioned, you know, the kids they get exposed to Patrick and the team and they see the chair and, you know, they want to get in it and play. I think it's a fantastic way to break down barriers and blur the line between disability and having ability.

AMT: So what do you want kids to remember about their futures if they haven't yet had anyone to tell them how to liberate their abilities?

RICK HANSEN: Try to learn about, you know, people like Patrick and see what's possible and then go even further. You know, like Terry Fox and I, we love wheelchair basketball and, you know, we tried our best, we were we were pretty good. But Canada was lucky to place fifth in the world and we dreamt one day of maybe, you know, our country reaching the podium and winning gold. And, you know, it was the next generation, you know, of young kids like Patrick who pushed out and they proved that was possible.

PATRICK ANDERSON: Yeah, I mean to jump on what you're saying. So for me I think it's a matter of carrying a little bit farther and seeing where else we could take it, you know? And for me lately, especially the able bodied inclusion in our sport. Because within Canada, you know, anybody can play, you don’t have to have a disability. And we are way ahead of that in making that just sort of the normal way things happen in Canada to our great benefit. Being able to see myself as an athlete primarily, rather than a disabled athlete. Because I grew up getting banged around by able bodied kids who walked in the gym jumped in the chair and then knocked me over. And I mean, like I said, normalization is sort of a bracing experience but in a good way. And I think it's not a coincidence that change in Canada happened briefly after Rick's tour. I just think there was a spirit of, you know, seeing people with disabilities in a new light.

AMT: Thank you all. It's really great to hear you all talking together. Thank you so much.

RICK HANSEN: All the best you guys.

PATRICK ANDERSON: Thank you.

MAGGIE BAER: Thank you. Thank you so much.

PATRICK ANDERSON: Thanks to Rick, thanks Maggie.

AMT: Maggie Baer is in Ottawa, Patrick Anderson is in New York, and Rick Hansen on the phone from Toronto. Stay with us, in our next half hour we'll catch up with Mike Trauner, the Invictus Games athlete we met earlier this week to see how his games have been going. They’ve been going well actually, we're going to hear the details. We're also headed to Nova Scotia where even the United Nations has weighed in on an unjust situation affecting many black families and land they have never been allowed to own. We'll talk about that when we return in about 90 seconds from now. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current.

[Music: Extro]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, you're listening to The Current.

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[Sound: heavy breathing]

MIKE TRAUNER: I shouldn't be able to do most of the things that I do and I do them. So you actually give it a wholehearted attempt, just keep pushing forward. We're all people here. We all have aches and pains.

AMT: Well, that is Master Corporal Mike Trauner, aka Megatron, retired Canadian soldier. We first heard from him Monday when he was gearing up for this week's Invictus Games in Toronto. He was serving in Afghanistan in 2008 when a roadside blast changed his life. He lost both legs, his hands had to be rebuilt. He underwent 18 surgeries. This week, he was among those representing Canada at the Invictus Games in hand cycling and rowing events. And he's lived up to his Megatron nickname. So we just thought we'd check in again. Hello Mike Trauner.

MIKE TRAUNER: Hey good morning, how are you doing?

AMT: I'm well. How many medals are you taking home from these Invictus Games?

MIKE TRAUNER: [chuckles] Well, I got double gold, so I swept my series in rowing.

AMT: That's fantastic. When you swept your series, what did you do?

MIKE TRAUNER: So I was rowing in a four minute competition and I won gold. And I rowed in the one minute and I won gold for that as well.

AMT: And what do those gold medals mean to you?

MIKE TRAUNER: Well the Invictus Games truly isn't about winning medals, it's about basically defeating yourself and pushing yourself forward. So winning the gold medals is just a bonus. But doing it for my country means everything.

AMT: And you got, you did, you rowed, what is it? 980 metres in four minutes. And that's not even your personal best.

MIKE TRAUNER: No actually. I had just done a handcycling competition in the morning so I was pretty bagged. I didn't really have a whole lot of energy left. I was trying to get over 1,000 metres.

AMT: And where was your closest competition behind you?

MIKE TRAUNER: It was the guy from the United Kingdom. He was a triple amputee. He rowed his actual heart out, you know. I really have kudos for the guy. Any time you got to row and you have a disability, there's always all kinds of different challenges that are pressed upon you. But I didn't see anybody having challenges there. Everybody that had a severe disability, you couldn't tell. I mean, they just rowed like they were able bodied and it proved because they also meddled as well.

AMT: How did you feel going into that four minute race?

MIKE TRAUNER: I felt pretty strong. I've trained a long time for this. You know, I've been a rower since about 2009, and I've got that mindset, I just I hate being defeated, I don't want to be defeated. So I went in with a positive mindset and I promised my, wife my team, and actually I promise a lot of Canadians too, I said this is my sport and nobody's going to take that from me and I'm going to get double gold for my country.

AMT: And you did. [laughs]

MIKE TRAUNER: And I did.

AMT: Well congratulations. So but you did the one minute sprint just a couple hours after that four minute. How tough is it to do those back, like, within hours of each other?

MIKE TRAUNER: Well, typically you would not want to do a four minute and a one minute on the same day. It's very very physically demanding on your body and to throw cycling into that as well is just, you know, ridiculous. It's usually too much on your muscles itself and you really do risk, you know, tearing muscle fibers and things like that, so it's not recommended. But I think I was prepared, even though I was a little bit tired, you know, even though I didn’t achieve my best personal goals. I still came out on top. And, you know, my shoulders are doing good, my arms are feeling fine, and once I get back home I'm going to get back on the cycle and get back to training.

AMT: Mm. How are your hands because I know you always have to glove them and, like, you really have to watch how they are reacting to all this?

MIKE TRAUNER: Yeah, so in between my training sessions I had to do ice packs to stop my forearms and my fingers from actually going solid on me, freezing up and, you know, my fingers can actually stop working in between sets if I use them too much, the muscle will seize. So I did have a physio actually on call with us as well, and the physios were actually working my hands in between training and in between sets just to keep them mobile. So I was really really well-prepared coming into these races.

AMT: You had to be prepared for the pain too then huh Mike?

MIKE TRAUNER: I was, but you always had to be prepared for the pain. With any disability you really have to learn to ignore the pain and try to live with it.

AMT: So tell us about the medal presentation.

MIKE TRAUNER: Yeah, the medal presentation, I’ve seen a couple pictures that were posted up online and, you know, it made me really smile and made me a little bit teary eyed too. One of my favourite pictures actually, I'm holding up the Canadian flag just as they called out the gold medalist and the picture is actually of Prince Harry with a big smile on his face. And he's looking at me as I'm holding up my Canadian flag because ironically Prince Harry is the one that challenged me to be here in the first place and I accepted the challenge. And it almost felt like we went full circle. You know, I was at my lowest when I first met him and he challenged me to join the games and do my best. And here I am at the games, doing my best in my own home country, winning gold for everybody, and it's gone full circle.

AMT: That's really something on huh. You were listening in to the last half hour, you heard Rick Hansen and Patrick Anderson talking.

MIKE TRAUNER: Yes.

AMT: Again, you know, somebody being inspired to see others do it and to realize that there was potential that they had and maybe hadn't tapped into it. I wonder if you can just tell us what you were thinking when you listened to them?

MIKE TRAUNER: Well for one, you know, their stories are truly inspiring. But growing up back in the seventies, I remember I was a very very small kid and, you know, Rick Hansen was truly one of the first people I've ever even heard of that had a disability that proved that having a disability doesn't put limitations on you. He found ways to be, you know, just that guy in Canada’s eyes as a true hero and an inspiration for everybody with disabilities. So as I became disabled myself in my life later on when I was about 29-years-old, I remember seeing some of the things about Rick Hansen and as well as other athletes with disabilities, and they don't impose that disabled mindset on themselves. So, you know, it's really my goal in the future to get all Canadians to see everybody as equal. And even for competitions it’ll be really nice in the future to have intermingling I guess you could say, of persons that are able bodied and disabled. Just in different classes, you know.

AMT: Yeah.

MIKE TRAUNER: Just take away the wheelchairs and take away the crutches and just see the person behind them.

AMT: You realize there's likely a young boy or girl listening to you right now who's going to say many years from now that they listened to you and you were an inspiration.

MIKE TRAUNER: Well, that makes me feel really really good. And anybody I can help I would definitely be more than willing to do so. You know, right now I'm really avid about hand cycling. I really love my rowing. I listened to the other guys talking about their sports as well. I typically don't actually train with other people that are disabled, I usually ride with other people that are disabled but I don't train. So what that means is when I'm actually getting ready for competition, I will train against a regular able bodied people. And when I'm defeating them in competition, then it really just pushes me to go to the next step. Because I know people with disabilities are absolutely going to push their bodies right to the absolute edge of what they can do.

AMT: Well, congratulations for what you have done in these games and for what you continue to do Mike Trauner. Good to talk to you, good to check in with you.

MIKE TRAUNER: It's good to hear from you too. Thank you so much.

AMT: Mike Trauner, Pembroke, Ontario, won two golds in rowing in the Invictus Games and in hand cycling he did very well as well, he competed the very next day and he came in sixth.

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UN report urges Nova Scotia to secure land titles for residents of African descent

Guests: Dwight Adams, Isaac Saney

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: You are listening to The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM and online on cbc.ca/thecurrent.

SOUNDCLIP

ELAINE CAIN: My kids need someplace to go. I need someplace to go. I need to grow old in my mother's house with my children. My mother lived in this house for 43 years and she died in this house last year. What I plan to do is fight for my mother's home.

AMT: Well that doesn't seem right that Elaine Cain should have to fight for her mother's home. But as a black resident of North Preston, Nova Scotia, she is far from alone in facing a deeply frustrating situation. The land in question has been in her family for 200 years, but as with many of her neighbours her family does not hold title to it. That means they cannot legally pass it down through generations and they cannot sell it. It is a problem that dates back to the 1700s and 1800s when white settlers were given title to the land but African Nova Scotians were not. And it means that many in the community are effectively squatters on their own land. This week the United Nations addressed this ongoing situation. The UN Human Rights Council is urging the governments of Canada and Nova Scotia to do more in the effort to secure land titles for African Nova Scotians. Yesterday Nova Scotia announced that it would spend 2.7 million dollars over two years to do just that. Tony Ince is the minister of African Nova Scotian affairs.

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TONY INCE: African Nova Scotians have suffered more than anyone else in Nova Scotia, great indignities and injustices with respect to land. As an African Nova Scotian, I understand what land means to our people. I can only imagine the frustrations you have felt. Today's announcement is one important step on our journey. There's more work to be done but we are on the right path.

AMT: Well, Dwight Adams is one of the founding members of the North Preston Land Recovery Initiative. That is a community group that has been fighting the Nova Scotia government to solve this land title problem. Dwight Adams joins us from our Halifax studio. Hello.

DWIGHT ADAMS: Hello, how are you this morning?

AMT: Well I'm curious to know what you're thinking. What was your reaction to the Nova Scotia Government's announcement yesterday.

DWIGHT ADAMS: Well, it was a bit of a shock to me actually because well, I should say not a shock to me, where we've been battling with the government over these issues for quite some time now. It was a bit of a shock that they’ve actually reacted the way they did and as quickly as they did after the report came out. I'm quite sure that it was because of the pressure that was put on them through the United Nations report. And I think this was the reason that the action was taken so quickly.

AMT: How long have you been fighting for this?

DWIGHT ADAMS: We've been in, well, we've been in the trenches for the seniors of our community now for the last four years or so, if not more a little more now. But this battle has been going on obviously for quite some time. There's been small organizations within the community that go all the way back to the sixties that we know of that actually have put paperwork forward and requests forward and even before that in the earlier 1900s, where we have actually as a people gone to the government to ask about these issues. And I should say that we did ask the Minister of African Nova Scotian affairs Tony Ince to tell us more about these decisions and why they've been delayed but he declined to speak to us. So tell us why are there so many people in your community who do not have legal title to their property?

DWIGHT ADAMS: Well I mean, the actual reasoning is what we would understand it to be is that we were just actually pushed to the wayside on how the processes work to get things to happen. The other issue is the fact that well we're talking 50, 60, 70 years back, we can go as far back as that, our grandparents and our great grandparents. Without them understanding these processes that were put in place with these acts, we’ll go back to 1963 when that act was put into place, those families coming up during that time, a lot of them didn't have an understanding of how the paperwork and the processes worked to get this done. The bottom line is that we should have been given these titles at the beginning of time, when we have our property, we've paid our taxes, we were productive citizens. And here we are today still behind the eight ball so to speak, without any furtherance and assistance until today.

AMT: And so this funding that's been announced affects a number of communities. Yours, North Preston, but also East Preston, Cherrybrook, and Lincolnville, and Sunnyville, and Guysborough County. So there's whole pockets where people don't have title. Am I right?

DWIGHT ADAMS: That's absolutely true. There's about 13 communities that are more than likely affected by the same issue.

AMT: So what happens when somebody wants to sell their property? What have they done since now? What do they do?

DWIGHT ADAMS: Well, it's ironic that they really don't have a foot to stand on because what takes place now is you try to pass it on and you run into stumbling blocks whereby the government will say well, I'm sorry but you don't own this land, you can't pass it on. If you try to build, sorry, when you get a permit sorry you can’t build you don't own that land. Or if you try to do any kind of alterations to your home for permits, you go, you go both to processes, I'm sorry you can't you don't own that land. So these issues have been going on for a while. We in some cases, more than likely probably ignored some of that and did what we had to do back in the day and nobody really paid much attention to us. So it just goes to show that they haven't really paid attention to a whole lot, but the paperwork and the processes that were in place were always just pushed to the side. So the whole, the process is flawed.

AMT: You've got a family connection on this. Your wife's family has been fighting this too have they not?

DWIGHT ADAMS: Yeah, that's correct, yeah.

AMT: And what's that been like?

DWIGHT ADAMS: Oh it's been very frustrating. There's other issues. Once you go through the proper processing, you get your paperwork in place, you go and get your surveys done at about 10,000 dollars per family or per unit. Then you go and you get your documentation done through your lawyers, all the paperwork is signed. I's are dotted and the t's are crossed and lo and behold there is a family member that could come out of the woodwork that also have claim to a portion of the properties or the lands within the family, and then there's a dispute. So with those types of issues now your application goes back in the pile, you're forgotten about, and the process starts again, and about five, ten, 15 years later you're at it once again.

AMT: And there's a real cost to that. There's also an emotional cost for not being able to actually have that ownership that can be taken away from you then?

DWIGHT ADAMS: Oh it's absolutely. It's appalling, like, Elaine elated to it earlier in the interview, and she mentioned that it's terrible that you can't live in your grandparents or your parents’ home, to be able to bring your grandchildren up to nanny’s home and, you know, allow them to thrive in their own community. And once you've spent all these years in the community and you're a part of something and all of a sudden the government tells you at the end of your days that oh well, you know, die without giving up your property. That would be pretty hurtful to anybody.

AMT: So this has taken so long to get to a point where the government says we want to fix this. What role does racism, discrimination play in this equation?

DWIGHT ADAMS: It's so deeply rooted. If you read the United Nations recommendations, that whole entire report has numerous issues. It's a deep deep systemic racism that's been involved in Halifax, Nova Scotia for as long as I can remember. I'm in my fifties, I heard it through my parents, my grandparents, and my great grandparents, and some of those elders that are still alive today well into their eighties and nineties and actually hundred. And the stories that we hear from them it's appalling. It's embarrassing, it's ridiculous, it's 2017 and yet here we are today sitting down and talking about the systemic racism of a nation that is to me an amazing nation. And it's embarrassing and it's hurtful.

AMT: Dwight Adams thank you for bringing us up to date on this.

DWIGHT ADAMS: You're welcome.

AMT: Dwight Adams, one of the founding members of the North Preston Land Recovery Initiative, he's in our Halifax studio. Isaac Saney is a Professor in the Department of History at Dalhousie University, where he created and teaches that institution's first course about the black experience in Nova Scotia. He is in Halifax joining us from there. Hello.

ISAAC SANEY: Hi. Thank you.

AMT: I want to pick up on this, because we are looking at, like this started in the 1700s. Give us the history here.

ISAAC SANEY: Well, you know, Nova Scotia and Canada has a history of enslavement. And so I think that needs to be stressed. But we have the first waves of people who are free, at least legally free who are not enslaved, coming in the 1780s, the Black Loyalists, as been made famous by Lawrence Hill's book. And then after the War of 1812, we have another major migration in terms of number of people. Another group called the Black refugees who came after the War of 1812. They were promised land and equality and economic security. But what they were given, they were not granted land, they were given tickets or license of occupation. That's where people could stay but they were not given title to that land. And I think it's important to understand that when the Black Loyalists were coming in the 1780s and the next major wave of the Black refugees coming after the War of 1812, they was seen by the Nova Scotia colonial authorities, these are government officials, as very important sources of labour for building the infrastructure of this province. So I think it's very possible when one reads through the records, that they wanted to ensure that the Black community didn't become economically independent, economically viable by having a secure land base so they could be used as cheap labour. These land claim issues have been things that have been taken up, question of giving title to the land from the 19th century. You can go into the archives, you can find petitions from various residents in these various communities asking for title to their land. And what's interesting as well is when the 1963 Land Clarification Act is introduced in Nova Scotia, it's introduced at the same time that we have the dispossession of Africville. So the Black community is extremely well aware that in these various communities, especially in North Preston, that their connection to the land is very tenuous. In the sense that even though they are taxpayers, they have not been given title to the land. And with the experience of Africville and another community in Dartmouth, create an avenue. And even in Hogan's Alley in Vancouver, that any time the state can intervene and using this precarious legal position of the community in regards to the land, seize and expropriate that land.

AMT: And I just clarify, you said 1963 Land Clarification Act?

ISAAC SANEY: Yes.

AMT: Like modern times in other words.

ISAAC SANEY: Modern times.

AMT: It was perpetuated. So who does own that land?

ISAAC SANEY: Well, it's clear I mean, morally it's the people who have been on that land for generations and decades. The issue of who owns the land is stuff perhaps that will be decided, people in terms of the legal system.

AMT: Right, no but I mean like does the government of Nova Scotia say that's our land or that's the big thing, it's kind of like limbo.

ISAAC SANEY: That's the big thing that's left in limbo.

AMT: OK.

ISAAC SANEY: But let's be clear that when the concerns is that when the Black community, and I should have stressed this, when they were settled, either with the Black Loyalists who came, and then the Black refugees, they were placed on land that was not considered valuable. They were placed on marginal land. They were set aside from the major centres. And so land was not considered valuable yesterday suddenly becomes valuable as economic situations change, as the province expands. So suddenly land that was considered infertile, of very little economic value, suddenly becomes land that people want to develop. And so the communities are very very concerned. Having seen what happened to Africville and also seeing the gentrification that has unfolded across the north end. So people want to preserve this land that's been in generations, pass it onto the families, and of course, you know, land is a very important source of economic investment and of the economic viability of a community.

AMT: You know, we just heard our last guest talking about deep systemic racism. I just had this conversation with Reni Eddo-Lodge earlier this week on the institutionalized racism that exists in in the Western world. This is like a living breathing example of the kind of thing that just has been perpetuated.

ISAAC SANEY: It is, and it's clear and of course Dwight Adams mentioned a recent United Nations report, it's a scathing report. It says the social economic conditions of African Nova Scotians are deplorable and it calls on the government to take immediate measures to address these issues. And so what the UN report does is basically encapsulate what has been the experience of people of African descent in this province, and there've been reports before that as well. So I think it's a scathing indictment of Canada, it's a scathing indictment of the way people of African descent have been treated, whether it's through the criminal justice system, whether it's on this issue of the precarious nature of their connection to the land that Dwight Adams and the group he represents have been struggling about. But also the fact that we live in the United Nations official of people of African descent declared from the beginning of 2015 to the end of 2024. And there's been no official provincial or federal government pronouncement of what they're going to do in terms of this international decade really I think is appalling.

AMT: And Nova Scotia says it will spend 2.7 million dollars over two years to do just that. To change things. Is that enough?

ISAAC SANEY: Well I mean, they've talked about hiring two liaison officers. They've talked about hiring one surveyor who will then have two technicians attached to him. I hardly see that that will be enough to in a timely fashion, in a timely fashion, resolve these issues that have been ongoing for generations. So I think 2.7 million dollars is a pittance. 2.7 million dollars will not solve this issue in my opinion in the time that's required to sort of put this incredible injustice behind us. I think as Dwight said, and I don't think it's a coincidence, of course I'm not privy to the inner decisions of the Nova Scotia government. But it seems highly coincidental that this report comes out with its scathing indictment of Nova Scotia in terms of its treatment of people of African descent, historical Black community, and suddenly we have this announcement of 2.7 million dollars. Yes we are glad that this announcement has been made, we're glad that the government has acknowledged that they need to resolve this land issue. But I don't think these resources are going to be enough to resolve it in a timely fashion that I think was resonant and harmonious with justice.

AMT: Where’s the federal government in all this?

ISAAC SANEY: I don't know. I mean, I know there was a meeting of Black government officials, elected officials, a few weeks ago and people were talking about a number of issues. I don't know what their positions are. There's been no response to this UN report and I'm waiting with bated breath. I think these are fundamental issues. And as I said, and to reiterate the United Nations has declared 2015 to 2024 the International Decade for People of African Descent. And yet we had no real federal, no real genuine federal response to this declaration.

AMT: OK well, so these communities now, they have, you're saying, you're making the point they've suffered because of the restrictions on people's ability to build and sell and change things. Everything's a struggle.

ISAAC SANEY: Everything is a struggle and I think obviously we often like to refer to Africville. And Africville is sort of like the clear case, the exemplar of this whole process. People living on land, settled on land, allowed to stay there because the land is considered not valuable. And yet they’re taxpayers and they’re taxpayers but they get no title to their land. They're taxpayers but they don't get services. And suddenly when the city expands and that land is seen as valuable for whatever industrial reason or whatever development reason, suddenly those people are put in a precarious position and suddenly their vulnerability becomes exploitable. What I think is exceptional about what North Preston has done through its struggle is assert the community’s agency. They're not helpless hapless spectators on the stage of history. They have struggled and they’ve fought to take control of their destiny. And I I applaud them because I don't think we'd have had this UN report highlighting this issue, I don't think we would have the government making this announcement, however inadequate it is, without the struggle of the people of North Preston.

AMT: OK well we have to leave it there. But Isaac Saney, thank you for giving us some perspective on all of this. Thank you very much.

ISAAC SANEY: Thank you for having me.

AMT: Isaac Saney, a Professor in the Department of History at Dalhousie University. He joined us from our Halifax studio. Let us know what you think of this and this conversation. You can tweet us, we are @TheCurrentCBC, find us on Facebook, go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. That is The Current for today. I’m Anna Maria Tremonti, Piya Chattopadhyay is here tomorrow. Thank you for listening to The Current.

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September 28, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

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