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The Current Transcript for September 20, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

[sc]

[Sounds: Chatter, broken glass]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: The sounds of digging and desperation as neighbors in areas across Mexico City joined rescue efforts to try to find survivors trapped under the rubble of collapsed buildings. As night turned into day, the death toll was still climbing and the full scope of devastation is still unclear. Just hours before there had been an earthquake drill complete with warning sirens, but the system that was supposed to warn every one of the real thing may not have been able to detect this one fast enough. We will hear from Mexico City in just a moment.

SOUNDCLIP

And then it's a new day for the NDP. [Cheering and applausing] And it is a new day for Manitoba.

AMT: Within 30 minutes of his historic victory as the new leader of Manitoba's NDP, Wab Kinew was facing scrutiny related to renewed allegations of domestic abuse and a court case where the charges were stayed 14 years ago. In half an hour we'll hear from the new party leader and from someone watching the controversy swirl around him. And as the head of the world's largest philanthropic organization Bill Gates says a little anger can go a long way.

SOUNDCLIP

You want to improve the world; you always have to be able to be pissed off. That is why these problems get solved, it is that there so much anger.

AMT: His Gates Foundation is harnessing a little anger and impatience, warning donor nations that if they won't cough up enough foreign aid many of the gains of the last decade from lower infant mortality to the reduction in HIV AIDS could come undone. We'll hear the details in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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THE CURRENT | 'Their school came down upon them': Deadly Mexico City earthquake kills more than 200

Guests: Franc Contreras, Allen Husker

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds: Chatter, people crying]

AMT: Well the sound of terrified onlookers yesterday as a 7.1 magnitude earthquake sheared off the side of a government building in Mexico City. North America's largest city saw buildings toppled. And as you've been hearing on the news the death toll has climbed overnight, with this, the second major earthquake in the country in less than two weeks. The strike came early yesterday afternoon rattling the capital on the 32^nd anniversary of a quake that took the lives of thousands in Mexico in 1985, and right away volunteers took to the streets to help with rescue and relief efforts including a man named Alex at a relief goods donation center in Mexico City.

SOUNDCLIP

In a situation like this you've got to help each other. There is no other choice. I was evacuated from the building and I was walking by. So I saw that help was needed. That's why I came over.

AMT: Well rescue efforts continued through the night including at a school where at least 22 children and two adults were found dead and dozens more were still missing. Franc Contreras is a journalist in Mexico City hello.

FRANC CONTRERAS: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: What kind of night has it been, Franc?

FRANC CONTRERAS: It's been a night with no sleep and lots of fear. We're worried about tremendous aftershocks.

AMT: So where were you when it when the quake hit Franc?

FRANC CONTRERAS: I was in a very center part of Mexico City. It's broken into what would be considered like 16 different boroughs. And that was when I was in one right in the middle of the city. And so just blocks away from where I'm speaking to you from right now there are huge apartment buildings that have been turned to absolute rubble.

AMT: And so what kind of rescue efforts are you hearing about? What are you seeing on the streets?

FRANC CONTRERAS: Well just a few blocks from me, people worked all night long. And I'm talking about neighbors, you know. There were also of course firemen, police, soldiers, even Marines on the scene. But you could see everyday people working hand-in-hand creating long lines passing each other buckets filled with rubble that were once buildings, schools, churches and just working all night too to try to dig through the rubble and find anyone who might be surviving.

AMT: We're talking really large buildings that have collapsed then.

FRANC CONTRERAS: Yes in some cases you know we saw five six story buildings that came down and were absolutely destroyed. This happened both in the poor neighborhoods of the city but also in upper middle class very well-known neighborhoods.

AMT: And in the midst of this Franc you've got aftershocks.

FRANC CONTRERAS: I thought it will be just [unintelligible] when there are now. There are aftershocks, nothing that we could feel directly. The U.S. Geological Survey has been measuring aftershocks but there hasn't been one that that that really has sent people back out into the streets.

AMT: But what you're describing is a total chaos.

FRANC CONTRERAS: I'm speaking to specifically about what took place in the Mexican capital and just hours after the quake hit. Massive avenues and boulevards were completely blocked off, partly because people rushed out to the streets in their vehicles trying to race home to see their loved ones were okay. That created traffic chaos. In some instances it was also the authorities who were preventing people from entering certain zones where massive buildings had come completely crumbling down. But you can imagine this is a gigantic city where 21 million people here. As far as the eye can see in any direction it's almost wall to wall concrete you know. And so yes there's still a lot of dust around. The street that I'm speaking to you on, there was no visible damage. But again just one or two blocks in any direction and we can find buildings were absolutely destroyed.

AMT: And what we've heard now about the children who were found dead in a school, that others are missing. I mean this was happening that this happened at a time when everyone was out. And I'm just I'm trying to imagine the panic of parents of loved ones trying to find each other.

FRANC CONTRERAS: Anna Maria this was one of the most heartbreaking stories in the first hours when we came to realize just the magnitude of this earthquake and its destructive force. The story emerged of this elementary and junior high school, secondary school in the southern part of Mexico City. There were reports that a large number of students were trapped inside it when the earthquake hit at 1:14 p.m. local time, Mexico City time. There were still a large number of students in their classes sitting in their little desks when their school came down upon them. And so rescue workers worked through the afternoon crawling into the tunnels they could make into the areas inside the school trying to pull out bodies. There were a number of students who were rescued. Many were taken to hospitals some of them were taken to hospital and still had not a chance to find their parents. They were still separated from their parents. When I finally went to sleep around 4 a.m. Mexico City time, there were still children waiting to hear from their families. And so absolutely this is one of the heartbreaking stories that we heard about initially, one of the first schools. My sense is there perhaps will be discoveries of other schools and perhaps even things like hospitals where victims were trapped.

AMT: I was just going to ask you how have the hospitals been affected?

FRANC CONTRERAS: As of last night I was not hearing widespread reports of major hospital damage but I know of smaller clinics that were hit and we could not ascertain whether or not there were actually patients inside. So this is going to be a major concern as well for authorities, for families, for that for the health care community here in this capital city that took such a powerful blow here. This is definitely going to be one of the areas of concern that authorities will be looking into in the second day, as we really start to turn more heavily now toward the rescue effort.

AMT: And how equipped is Mexico for something like this? How much help is Mexico going to need for that rescue effort?

FRANC CONTRERAS: Mexico is already asking for help from trained paramedics, people who understand this kind of a disaster situation. For example the Mexico City government is offering to fly people in, if they have that kind of experience so they can come in and do some work. The Mexican government, when it comes to natural disasters, is actually quite astute. They use the military for that in a program called DN3 that in Spanish means natural disaster program number three. It's essentially a federal government plan to use the army the navy and all of the armed forces to immediately move in and begin doing things like removing rubble and helping the cleanup to end the rescue efforts and things like this. So that's what we saw immediately yesterday you could see military forces in the streets. And they're here to help their people.

AMT: And yet you still have a lot of people just trying to do this by hand clawing at the rubble, the neighbours.

FRANC CONTRERAS: You really have to have that because I think the first response for example about two blocks just north of where I'm sitting right now, a major apartment building came crumbling down. Adjacent to it right next door, it was around lunchtime Mexico City style - We ate lunch a little bit later. And so the first responders were actually neighbors. They came rushing to the location and started digging around and every once in a while you'd hear them yell out the word “Silencio” - silence. And what they're trying to do is hear the voices of anybody who might be trapped down underneath and then go to the rescue. We're hearing all kinds of stories that people who were trapped were sending messages, sometimes their cell phones were still working. They were trying to send out messages getting calls out. And you know trying desperately to get help. And again a lot of the first responders were actually neighbors.

AMT: You managed to get out of where you were. What was it like for you?

FRANC CONTRERAS: I was sitting in this very room where I'm speaking to you from. You heard echo it the floors are made of stone here. So it's a very solid structure built recently. I'll tell you it felt like one of those carnival houses were the walls and the floors moved side by side and you can't stand up. That's what it felt like. Things were falling off the walls. The bookshelf came down. Minutes before it came, we were supposed to get an earthquake alarm. Actually the very same day that the quake hit us was the 30nd anniversary of the 1985 quake. Earlier that morning we had a drill system that we get every single year that was the big irony here. At 11:00 a.m. sharp we had that drill system and so all of us faithfully went out to the streets. We were supposed to know earthquake took place went back home. At 1:15. it hit us. But there was no alarms so I was caught by surprise like everybody else. As I mentioned the House felt like one of those carnival strange fun houses. It was not fun. It was frightening. I grabbed my dog and we just ran for the door and went out to the staircase and I thought the staircase was just going to crumble under my feet. It's made of stone and it was just moving back and forth wildly. We got onto the street and then I thought well you know this is going to simmer down is going to calm down a little bit, this was nothing. And it did and it just continued to move violently. And I think that's where we began to realize this is probably one of the more powerful earthquakes this country has seen in decades.

AMT: What happens today?

FRANC CONTRERAS: We're going to take stock and try to figure out what took place here. A lot of concern has gone to the epicenter initially but it's looking like actually the greatest number of deaths happened here in this city, in Mexico City.

AMT: And for many people it's still just trying to find out what happened. And we just don't know.

FRANC CONTRERAS: Yes people are exhausted already and it has not even been 24 hours yet.

AMT: Franc, I'll let you go. Thank you for talking to me. Thank you so much.

FRANC CONTRERAS: Thank you Anna Maria.

FRANC CONTRERAS: Franc Contreras. He's a journalist in Mexico City. Allen Husker is a seismologist and a researcher at the Department of seismology at the National Autonomous University of Mexico and he joins us from Mexico City as well. Hello.

ALLEN HUSKER: Hi there.

AMT: Where were you when this earthquake happened? What did you feel?

ALLEN HUSKER: I was in my office and it started shaking quite a bit and everybody got scared and started running outside. I am a seismologist so I know that typically, my office is on the second floor of the building, it is kind of all the way back from the staircase. And so I already know that this would [unintelligible] hit the building, by the time I got outside it would be done. And so I stayed at my office and waited it out to see if I should go under my desk if [unintelligible] were starting to collapse. That was the best way to go because it can be dangerous going down the stairs.

AMT: Our last guest our reporter Franc Contreras said that he and his neighbors did not hear an alarm. Did you hear an alarm where you were yes?

ALLEN HUSKER: Yes. But I'm at the University and so almost all the schools have an alarm. The alarm didn't sound until after the seismic waves hit the city. But it was almost actually really close to the same time. Tt was just a few seconds later. And the reason for that is that the earthquake was really low to the coast of Mexico City and also deep. So it was about 120 kilometers from Mexico City and about fifty seven kilometers deep. You can imagine a waves extending in a circle going in pop. It takes you know some time for the way to get travel fifty seven kilometers to the surface. At that same time it is expanding laterally fifty seven kilometers. [Unintelligible] advance towards the city that same distance before it even touched the surface. It isn't a sensor directly above it. And so it took time then as well once it hits the surface to also expand towards that sensor. So then those sensors receive the seismic signal and then they take some time to process it and then to send alarm. And so that whole process took enough time that by the time alarm learned was actually sounded the seismic was already in the city.

AMT: Hmm. And so you knew what you were feeling as a seismologist but the length of the actual tremors, I mean what were you thinking as it was happening? What were you processing?

ALLEN HUSKER: Our group right away starting just talking to each other and saying: “Do we think it's close? Do we think it is far?” Because we don't have an idea either. But in this case it was really obvious that it was close because the waves hit us before the seismic alarm sounded.

AMT: And is this quake at all related to the one that occurred on the 7th along the coast?

ALLEN HUSKER: Yes that's a good question. At this point I mean it's not a replica because replicas only occur within the fault of [unintelligible] it actually occurred. This was very far from here. However there is earthquake triggering that can happen at long distances. We don't know at this time that this is the case. It might just be a completely random chance that this happened. We've seen various [unintelligible] before in the world. They have one earthquake and then a few days later another earthquake and the two are just not related at all. So it's completely possible that it was just random that it happened. And we are going to investigate and see if there is a connection.

AMT: And you make the point that quakes happen all the time but how significant was this one?

ALLEN HUSKER: Yes. No this was a biggie. I mean Mexico has a long history of large earthquakes and destructive earthquakes. And so this is another one of those that's going to go in the history books.

AMT: And the number of buildings is way above 40 that have collapsed. Is that a surprise to you?

ALLEN HUSKER: Yes and no because the earthquakes are so close to the city, I'm not surprised. I mean we know where the shaking is going to occur. It's very well studied. So Mexico City sits on top of an old lake there. They drained the lake, finally finishing the draining in the 1960s. And it was because there was a lot of flooding that was happening as it was turning. People moved into those areas and so it acts as an application for a seismic waves. It's basically like mud. And so we know where these large amplification are and it's a large portion of the population lives in this area. And specifically buildings that are at a certain height between five to 10 floors in particular experimental large amplification because of the natural frequented ability coincides with the natural frequency of the basin. And so what that means is when the seismic wave hits it really really amplifies it. It's similar to if you go to an opera house and an opera singer is singing the acoustics of the building is made in such a way that it will amplify the voice of the singer. The exact same thing it's happening in this case. So it actually amplified the wave inside the building and makes it more likely to collapse. The part that I was surprised about, after 1985 the idea of the building codes. And I really thought that they could do better this time.

AMT: I wanted to just ask you a little bit more about this alarm system, then, how effective is that system?

ALLEN HUSKER: So any large seismic alert system the way it works is basically the earthquake already happens but it's far enough away from wherever the population is, so that it gives the population some time before it arrives. And so in that sense it's all going to work if the earthquake is really far away. This was far enough away that there should have been at least some warning. I don't know the details as to why it took a little bit of time for the alarm to sound but at this point it could be some improvement, also. The protocols for were set up not by a seismologist but by politicians I think. Here in Mexico City a long time ago after the 1985 earthquake. And so the way it was set up was if there a magnitude 6 anywhere, then the alarm would sound. Really what it should be based on is how much shaking the people in the city will feel. And that may or may not be a magnitude 6. It might be different a different type of earthquake. Regardless, this specific earthquake should have – maybe alarm go off.

AMT: Will people just have to expect a lot of aftershocks at a time like this too?

ALLEN HUSKER: Actually this earthquake probably won't have that many aftershocks. There's been seven other large earthquakes at least, of similar size near this one in the past hundred years. And none of them have reported really a lot of aftershocks. So we don't think there's going to be a lot of aftershocks of this one either. So at least that was a bit of a consolation.

AMT: Well I know you study this but it can never be good, I'm guessing, to have to be able to witness what you study up close like this.

ALLEN HUSKER: Yes. No, it really hits home when it happens. I mean it is easy to kind of study it from afar but when it hits home, it's difficult.

AMT: Thanks for speaking with me today.

ALLEN HUSKER: Yes, thank you.

AMT: Bye bye.

ALLEN HUSKER: Bye bye.

AMT: Allenn Hosker. He's a seismologist and researcher at the Department of seismology at the National Autonomous University of Mexico. And as you heard we reached him in Mexico City, where he too dealt with the quake. Let us know what you think. As you listen to all of this. You can tweet us. We are @TheCurrentCBC. You can find us on Facebook. Our e-mail address is through our website cbc.ca/thecurrent.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: The CBC News is next with the latest on the Mexican earthquake and the hurricane that is slamming into the Caribbean. Then newly elected leader of the Manitoba NDP will answer questions about how he plans to lead the party in light of personal accusations that have followed him for years. I'll be speaking with Wab Kine, right after the news. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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THE CURRENT | 'I was not in the best place in my life': Manitoba NDP leader Wab Kinew confronts abuse allegations

Guests: Wab Kinew, Robert Alexander Innes

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come foreign aid in the age of Trump.

SOUNDCLIP

I will always put America first. Just like you as the leaders of your country will always and should always put your countries first.

AMT: The U.S. president addressing the United Nations yesterday. Groups such as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation may face a more daunting task than ever today, trying to ensure that governments continue to fund foreign aid and not squander the progress that's been made with global health and poverty. I will speak with the CEO of the Gates Foundation about that in half an hour. But first an historic first clouded by a troubled past.

SOUNDCLIP

I also want to say that I will continue to be an ally for women in our province as they stand up for their right to live free of violence, harassment and discrimination.

[Applause]

AMT: The new leader of Manitoba's New Democratic Party, the author, former CBC broadcaster and indigenous rights activist Wab Kinew. It was a landslide victory for Wab Kinew this past weekend at the provincial leadership convention. He becomes the first elected first nations leader of a major Manitoba political party. And there are great hopes among his supporters that Wab Kinew can help rebuild the provincial NDP. But immediately after his win allegations from Wab Kinew’s past have been clouding his victory. They include allegations of domestic assaults from 14 years ago. Wab Kinew, the new Manitoba NDP leader joins me now from our studio in Winnipeg. Hello.

WAB KINEW: Hi Anna Maria. Good morning.

AMT: Good morning. Normally a leader is celebrating a when you are fending off attacks. What are we supposed to make of that?

WAB KINEW: Well I think first of all being chosen as the leader of the Manitoba NDP is a high honor and I am very humbled by that. I am working hard every day to set in place a direction to unify the party. The party has had some divisions these past number of years. And to work, first at being a good opposition and to earn the trust of Manitobans and to hopefully someday govern. That said, I've always understood that as long as I put my name on a ballot, that people are going to want to talk about my past, my political opponents especially but also that there are legitimate questions that people have about the person that I was when I was 20 - 21 years old. I've been very open about the sorts of changes that I've made in my life to go from negative to positive, and the work that I put in on an individual level but also publicly to become a positive force in our community and a force for good.

AMT: Well let let's talk a little bit about some of the things that have come up with your name on that ballot. You were charged in 2003 with two counts of assault on your then domestic partner. Those charges were stayed. And yet your former partner, Tara Hart and her mother have spoken to reporters in the last week and detailed the allegations. How do you respond?

WAB KINEW: Well first of all I am working to be a better person every day. And one of the lessons that I've really taken to heart over the past week, is that these sorts of stories are very damaging for people to hear about in the media, especially those who have experienced domestic violence or harassment or sexual assault. It's triggering. I understand that because I put my name on a ballot, that this is now coming out and that is causing people harm. I take responsibility for that. And I'm sorry. With respect to you know the people who have spoken to the media, this is a person and this is a family that was very important to me at one time in my life and I have been very clear about, you know, that this was investigated and dropped. But it's also clear to me that things are unresolved between us and in acknowledging that I was not in a good place in my life at the time. I also accept that I did things to hurt them emotionally, that I did things to lead to them suffering today and that this is now being brought out into view again because I chose to put my name on a ballot. I do accept responsibility for those things that I did to contribute to their suffering. And I am sorry for that.

AMT: Are you saying you accept responsibility for the physical violence that is alleged?

WAB KINEW: No. I've been clear about that. That did not happen. But at the same time I also recognize that I must've hurt this family on an emotional level. I probably scared them. I I'm not quite sure about all the emotions that they're going through, but clearly things are left unresolved. And I do accept responsibility for that because I know myself that I was not in the best place in my life. And so I am you know thinking about these things and trying to find a way to move forward in a good way.

AMT: We heard you in that clip pledged to be an ally for women and their right to live free of violence. How do you do that when so many are troubled by the allegations against you, and then you accept responsibility for emotionally hurting someone but not physically?

WAB KINEW: Well I think that, one; I have to show up and continue to listen. As I said earlier look one of the things that I've come to be more cognizant of this past week, is that these conversations are very triggering for people. And the reason I become aware of that is because a lot of people, predominantly women would also a few men, have come up to me and said “This is my story. Here's my experience. Here's what happened to me. Here's what happened in my family when I was younger” and I think that listening and working with people and showing that I'm serious about addressing these things is important. Since I've been an elected official, especially but also going back a few years into my time in the university world, I have been called upon to help people who filed complaints or who have had things happen to them. I'll continue to do that because I do understand that there are real barriers to women and to other victims of things like harassment or violence. There is real barriers to them getting justice and that there are I think times where court processes or other complaint procedures are adversarial and that is that is a real issue.

AMT: Well let me just ask you about that because the incidents that we are talking about , that is alleged to have happened is alleged to have happened 14 years ago. The charges were stayed. Do you think it's fair that you are back confronting this or that this is confronting you?

WAB KINEW: Well I think that, you know there is the legal question that this was dropped. But I do recognize that I'm a public figure and people are going to have questions about my character and my ability to lead. And so I do think that there are legitimate questions being asked. I also recognize that because this conversation is so emotionally charged that it's not going to be up to me to decide when it's over. And it is up to me to show up and to continue to try and be a part of these conversations that need to take place, so that we can take our society to having a consent culture, and to you know being free of violence and harassment and intimidation. And so I'll continue to be a part of those conversations.

AMT: And part of that conversation about violence against women and about specifically missing and murdered indigenous women and girls is that we need to believe them, and that the our courts have not always done that either. So how do we do this? Well how do you lead on one sense as a politician when those questions, those same kinds of questions surround you personally?

WAB KINEW: And I've been someone who said I believe victims because I do recognize the adversarial nature of a lot of complaint processes and how the courts can be. And you know I have spoken about how there is no acceptable level of violence against women in our society. And you know when we say I believe victims, or something to that effect, it's borne out of that truth that there is a barrier to many people finding justice. At the same time there's a tension between that and some of our basic civil liberties and human rights, like right to due to due process. And you know the presumption of innocence. And so to me this is one of the important questions that we're grappling with as a society, which is how do we make a complaint process which is less adversarial towards complainants and yet does continue to respect due process.

AMT: What the answer to that?

WAB KINEW: Well if I had a clean answer I would be shouting it from rooftops. I don't have all the answers. But as a leader I can say that I'm committed to being part of the conversation. And I do want to hear from people when they have ideas and to try and bring those forward, so that we can make our system in our society better.

AMT: We know there are discrepancies between some of the details in your memoir in court documents from two convictions in the early 2000s; drunk Driving and assaulting a taxi driver. You have since received pardons, to make that clear.

WAB KINEW: Yes.

AMT: Do you worry about inconsistency that will make people wary of what you say as a leader?

WAB KINEW: Well no, because at the end of the day I accepted responsibility for these instances both in court, I accepted responsibility in my book. And when I speak about these things in public, I've accepted responsibility for them. And what's more I put in the work over the years to address the addictions issues - because both of these were incidents where I was intoxicated - to address the addiction issues. And also I think the underlying character issues that I was living through at the time that led to those kinds of behaviors. And so I have been very open. I have been very honest about where I was at in my life but I've also been very frank about the sort of work that I've needed to put in as an individual and that has made me a better person today.

AMT: Wab Kinew, thank you for speaking with me today.

WAB KINEW: All right. Thank you.

AMT: Wab Kinew, the new leader of the Manitoba NDP. He's in our Winnipeg's studio. We invited a number of indigenous women to speak to us about the issue raised around Mr. Kinew and his leadership. They did not want to go on the record with us. Several steered us toward my next guest. Robert Innes is a member of the Cowessess First Nation and associate professor of Indigenous Studies at the University of Saskatchewan, where he is a scholar on indigenous Masculinities. Robert Innes is in Saskatoon. Robert Innes, hello.

ROBERT INNES: Hello. Good morning.

AMT: What did you just hear as you listen to Wab Kinew?

ROBERT INNES: Well you know there is a real attempt to, on the one hand, be forthright about his past and accept responsibility, on the one hand, but there seems to be a reluctance to be completely open and frank about a lot of his past. And at the same time I mean, it has to be recognized that he had done some significant turning around. There's no doubt about that right. But when he said he has accepted responsibility no matter what the version of the events are, we don't know what he's actually accepting responsibility for. You know so it's kind of difficult. It is a difficult situation to try to assess.

AMT: What did you want to hear that you didn't hear from him just now?

ROBERT INNES: Well I think you know a couple of things. First of all I think that he is talking about Tara Hart and admitting that at the very least he's caused a lot of emotional turmoil for her and her family. But it would have been nice for him to tell his supporters that, no, she doesn't need to be attacked online and threatened, to really ask his supporters to respect her privacy. I think that would send a message that you know that if he really wants women to come forward, even though there may be come forward in this case against him. Right. But he didn't really tell his supporters “Whoa, stop” so you know reading news stories about her going into hiding because of the kind of abuse she's taken. So that I would have liked to have seen him you know tell his supporters “don't attack women who come forward with complaints”.

AMT: This has become very political, very fraught. As I mentioned several indigenous women didn't want to give their opinions on the record, why do you think that is?

ROBERT INNES: Well you know we live in a real culture of fear and silence. I mean people who are friends or relatives of someone who has been accused will either defend someone and clearly attack others - people who make accusations or people ignore it. And so I can see why some women would be reluctant to really come forward. I mean we have all seen what happened to Tara Hart. Right. And that's the issue. They see what happened to Tara Hart. They see what happened to other women who come forward, and you know why would they put themselves in a situation where they would now be the target of abuse? And we also have to deal with the issue that, for a lot of people, they really kind of resent or are really reluctant to talk about issues about violence committed by indigenous men, because for many that is seen as that really reinforces a negative stereotype that white people have of indigenous men. And that is used as a tool by many to keep the silence.

AMT: And so how much do you think this is political or that this is real then in this discussion, like what's the motivation?

ROBERT INNES: Well you know I think that the motivation in terms of…

AMT: Well the fact that it's all come out, you know, there are those who would say “this is about a 14 year old incident where the charges were stayed. Is this fair to Mr. Kinew?”

ROBERT INNES: Right. Right. Well certainly you know anybody who's puts in [unintelligible] as I mentioned that you know these issues of character, these issues of past intent have to come forward. And certainly there's an issue there is a level of politics at play here. And certainly you'll see liberals and conservatives jump on this and really highlight this, while the NDP people are kind of quiet on this.

AMT: Although his main competition was not quite on this, originally, of course, in the leadership race. Some of this was raised in the leadership race by his leadership competitors.

ROBERT INNES: Right, right. But not - within the election there was - but you there wasn’t a lot of people other than the contenders. Right. So they were also using this as a political tool as well. But it's now a lot of discussion outside of the contenders. I didn't hear really anybody else other than some of the people who are running mentioned this.

AMT: I want to ask you something else Robert Innes. I'm looking at the Toronto Star today and I'm going to quote a little bit because I didn't talk to Jagmeet Singh but they did. And Mr. Singh is considered a frontrunner for the NDP federal leadership race. He has been endorsed by Wab Kinew. And the article in The Toronto Star, and this is a quote, it says Mr. Singh “says he believes survivors but added Kinew now speaks out on violence against women”. And I'm just wondering you know what's the point of saying people believe women but when we get to specific things, those allegations - how do we process that?

ROBERT INNES: Yeah exactly. It's difficult. I mean Tara Hart’s account is very compelling and it's very difficult to simply dismiss it. But even if he did not touch her, he has to acknowledge that [unintelligible] streetwise hip hop persona that he can encourage violence against women through his misogynistic song titles or song lyrics and tweets. Tweet that can continue to do as a CBC reporter and the vice president of University of Winnipeg, who actually never condemn those tweets and they should probably apologize for that. But I think that the fact that he was switching his persona from the streetwise hip hop person to reporter and you know [unintelligible] now politician, but he didn't really abandon that persona online or on his Twitter account. And I think that kind of adds to credibility. I mean the tweets didn't come out in his book. It came out later. This thought doesn't come out in the book, it came up later. So it's kind of hard to say “Well, I believe Wab.” But based on based on the fact that he had these lyrics and he encourages violence against women through his songs, at the very least. Right. And without him acknowledging, that by adopting that persona, the way in which he had actually benefited from misogyny against indigenous women. I think it really makes it more difficult to say “well I can believe him because he's credible”.

AMT: And so what are you going to watch for now?

ROBERT INNES: Well I would think that Wab Kinew has an opportunity, I think. If he stands up and sort of takes the lead from a number of small number, a growing number of indigenous men who stood up publicly in a minute all the things they've done and talked about how they are turning themselves around in their communities, I think that a man who have not had the opportunities that Wab Kinew has had. And I think that if he is able to publicly talk and be open about everything he's done and not wait for the headlines, because this the thing is if he doesn't come out and say, admit everything people will have it in the back of the mind “what else has he done?” So, it should come out and just admit everything that he's...

AMT: Well he has come out and acknowledged a lot of that except for this specific allegation, and then we have another politician who also says we have to believe survivors. That's the message that politicians are giving. And that's the message that women across the country are and men are giving. Not only in the case of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, but in cases of other women and then that's qualified. We have to believe survivors except. So I'm afraid we're almost out of time. But as somebody who studies this, what do we need to think about there?

ROBERT INNES: I think what we need is for men, indigenous men, non-indigenous men to really be open and frank about everything they've done in their past. Wab really has the opportunity to be able to either in this in this way, and certainly he has done a lot of this acknowledging. But there are these half-truths or missing details that come up and that ends up hurting his credibility. But he has a chance to just to be open and frank and maybe spur on other men to be open and frank.

AMT: Okay. Robert Innes thank you for your thoughts. We have to leave it there.

ROBERT INNES: Thanks.

AMT: Thank you.

ROBERT INNES: Thank you.

AMT: That is Robert Innes, member of the Cowessess First Nation. He's an associate professor of Indigenous Studies at the University of Saskatchewan and he's a scholar in indigenous masculinities. He joined us from Saskatoon. Let us know what you think you can find us on Facebook you can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the Contact link send us an email. Stay with us in our next half hour, Microsoft founder Bill Gates and his wife Melinda are giving a lot of way they spend their fortune on helping those who are needed around the globe. The CEO of their foundation, the Gates Foundation, will join me to talk about why more governments need to step up their giving as well. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio 1, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on your podcast and on your radio app.

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Gates Foundation warns global health under threat as foreign aid wanes

Guest: Sue Desmond Hellmann

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

If we do not continue to invest so that we can lower about the number of new infections significantly less than 18,000 a year, in a country such as Kenya, the reality is we will have a resurgence of HIV.

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After all the investments we have made regionally, we can't afford to do that, as a global community.

AMT: An alarm raised by an AIDS activist in Kenya where so much progress has been made against HIV AIDS. But she says without continued investment, gains can quickly be wiped out. It's an important reminder as the U.N. General Assembly meets in New York this week, at a time when many donor nations are shrinking their aid budgets. What you heard was part of a video from Kenya, as part of a push from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. The Microsoft founders’ philanthropic foundation is hosting an event in New York called Goalkeeper's. The guests include Nobel laureates Malala Yousafzai, former U.S. President Barack Obama, as well as Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. The focus is on keeping the UN's 2015 sustainable development goals. You'll remember is a series of global poverty and health targets with a deadline of 2030. Now the Gates Foundation has released a report card on some vital global health indicators including infant mortality, AIDS and vaccination rates. Sue Desmond Hellmann is the CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. She's trained as an oncologist. She's in New York City. Hello.

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Hello.

AMT: Let's begin with the good news. Your report showed that there has been considerable progress in the last decade and a half around reducing poverty and improving health. What are some of the wins?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Oh well here's one way I think about it. Between 1990 and 2016 six million fewer children died. That's more than all the children in France. And so the world is for sure making progress. And in our report from the Gates Foundation it's really a tale of two stories. Going backwards, the world has made more progress in the last 25 years than at any other time. And going forward, the peril the threat is if we don't keep our focus on those 2030 goals and continued improvement we could backslide.

AMT: Well how were the gains that you made achieved?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Well a number of things. First and foremost governments have made a commitment to providing health services to their population, and we have very effective ways of combating maternal mortality, of combating infant mortality for children under five. One of the areas that at the foundation we've made a big investment together with many others is childhood vaccines. Childhood vaccines have saved millions of lives. And we keep innovating and making better vaccines but providing vaccines for the world's poorest has made a massive impact on childhood mortality.

AMT: How evenly distributed across the globe are and gains in those areas?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Well that's still the threat. I'll give you one fact. After improvements in vaccine coverage and child mortality the world is better. But today children born in Angola are 75 times more likely to die than children born in Finland. That's the kind of inequity that we continue to see in the world.

AMT: And despite the fact that you have progress in some parts of the world, your report says that progress is under serious threat. Why is that?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Well if there is not as much support as we would like which is part of our goal in this goalkeeper's event this week for foreign aid. There are a lot of myths about foreign aid. There's a lot of misconceptions about it. And we're pro foreign aid because the kinds of investments that the world has made have made such a difference. But HIV AIDS is a good example. HIV AIDS is such a scourge. Thirty five million people in the world have died of HIV. But AIDS deaths have fallen by almost half since their peak in 2005. But here's the important thing to know about. In 1990 there were ninety four million people in Africa, aged 15 to 24. By 2030 there'll be more than 280 million people in Africa aged 15 to 24. And that is a critical risk period for HIV. We have at the foundation together with many others invested heavily in an AIDS vaccine. The world needs an AIDS vaccine before we hit more than 280 million new people at risk in sub-Saharan Africa.

AMT: And so that's again looking forward. But you're also making the point that if the aid going toward that waivers then right away you start to backtrack.

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: There really is a simple modeling of a 10 percent cut in money for HIV AIDS. In the next 15 years we could lose all of the gains we have made in the last 15 years with a 10 percent cut. These kinds of cuts don't seem that big. But what's happened is that now we can prevent HIV transmission. We can prevent acquisition of HIV with modern HIV therapy but that requires investment and still today it requires foreign aid.

AMT: Well this is personal for you. You worked as a doctor in Uganda with AIDS patients in the early 90s right?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: I worked in Uganda and in addition to that I trained at University of California San Francisco. So I was an intern in Madison one year after HIV was first described. So like so many colleagues who trained in metropolitan areas in the 80s I saw firsthand people my age dying of HIV AIDS before we actually even knew what caused HIV AIDS.

AMT: So when we talk about numbers you see people.

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Oh I see I see people in the prime of their lives. I see children. I see infants. I see people in there in the prime of their lives who in many ways, especially with the absence of education or in an area with high HIV prevalence, that a young woman can acquire HIV through sex with her first and only sexual partner. I've seen this firsthand. And so I know for sure what a scourge HIV is and I know for sure in the last 10 years investment in in anti-retroviral therapy, in these modern ways of treating and preventing HIV, have made a massive difference in the world.

AMT: You mentioned infant mortality earlier. I want to go back to that what are you forecasting there if aid is not maintained or increased?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Well infant mortality is one of the areas of such good news. I mean really an estimated 122 million children have been saved since 1990. But in our goal keeper report we really very clearly outlined the threat. And so the difference between the good news item of an additional more than 3 million lives saved, versus a bad news item which is the absence of saving two million lives we could save with investment, is stark for us between now and 2030. And those are the kinds of numbers I mean literally we are talking about millions of children's lives that can be saved with this investment. For every dollar of investment in vaccines, there's an estimated 16 dollars of economic benefit. So even if you're not touched by the humanitarian side of this and most people I know are very touched by saving lives under five years old. But there's an economic imperative too. These are productive citizens if not only their lives are saved as infants, but they can they can have good nourishment. They can have healthy and productive lives. That's great economic empowerment.

AMT: So why is there this wavering commitment to aid from donor countries?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Well that's part of why we want to tell this story. There's a number of reasons why a foreign aid can be a tough sell. One is that people actually overestimate what's spent. Here in the United States, truth is that we spend less than 1 percent of our federal budget on foreign aid. Most US citizens think the number is much larger. That's a myth. So part of what we're hoping to do with our goalkeeper's event and our goalkeeper's report is bust some myths.

AMT: Well let's just stick with the states for a minute because U.S. president Trump has threatened to significantly slash the U.S. foreign aid budget. What would those cuts mean to global health?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Well if if you look in 2016, 37.6 billion dollars of development assistance for health was available in the world. 37.6 six billion of that 12.8 billion came from the U.S. government and 4.1 billion from the United Kingdom. A cut in U.S. foreign aid would have a material impact on the Globe's ability to provide things for health for the poorest of the world. That is a massive threat to global health but also to global health security. A healthier world is a safer world.

AMT: President Trump signed an executive order banning U.S. government funding for foreign pro-choice groups and abortion providers. What does that mean for women's health, globally?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Well we are very much in favor of access for women who desire modern contraception to get that contraception. Melinda Gates, one of our co-chairs of our foundation, has been an incredibly powerful voice for women. And in 2012 she, along with many global leaders, made the commitment that we would work together and in a collaborative way to provide access to 120 million more women to modern contraception by 2020. What that means is a woman can plan when she has her children and to space her children and those two things are so important for maternal health, for not just child health but child well-being. For children to thrive, women have to have access to modern contraception. So anything that blocks women's access to voluntary safe modern contraception is a big negative for the world.

AMT: And Melinda Gates is a practicing Catholic and she has said she struggles with the issue of abortion. How does the foundation reconcile that?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: So Melinda has been really clear that she is a Catholic. She's a practicing Catholic and she has gotten comfortable with family planning. So our foundation has not taken positions on abortion but we have taken very strong, and I think very important positions, on access to family planning on contraception. Our area of focus has been on family planning rather than abortion.

AMT: Okay. Because I'm just curious because if the foundation does give money to Planned Parenthood, and in 2014 Melinda Gates said the foundation decided not to fund abortion, so is the money to Planned Parenthood. Does it make a distinction then between abortion and contraceptive funding?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: So we do make a distinction and we fund family planning we do not fund abortion crime.

AMT: Okay.Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is attending the goalkeeper's event. Well what are you looking for from him?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Canada is extremely important to the world and Canada's leadership in international development. Frankly the Prime Minister's role in championing gender equality is something we would celebrate. Prime Minister Trudeau has made a pledge to help the poorest and most vulnerable people in the world and addressing inequities faced by women and girls. So we are absolutely thrilled to see Canada's leadership in this area. And I have to say that while Canada has been generous, and we've co funded things everything from family planning, nutrition, polio eradication, and the Global Fund to fight HIV TB and malaria and much more, Canada's leadership goes beyond money. Canada as a leader shows others the way inequality and investment in global health. And so we're just thrilled at Prime Minister Trudeau and Canadian citizens’ commitment to equity in the world.

AMT: You know because our development assistance in Canada went down 4.4% in 2016.

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: I have to say though although the figures you cite are absolutely true. We were very positive that Canada, not only hosted the replenishment conference for the Global Fund in 2016, but Canada also committed 804 million Canadian dollars which was a 20% more than a 20% increase. And so we've just been really positive about both the leadership and the commitment to things like the Global Fund to eradicate HIV TB and malaria.

AMT: But are you pushing for more though? You have a point seven percent gross national income target. You are trying to get the OECD countries to meet?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Exactly and that is our suggestion to governments is that they look at that point 7% and we're very positive that the UK has made that target a commitment. So we would encourage the Canadian government as well. We think foreign aid is a good investment for citizens of all countries that have the opportunity to be generous.

AMT: And Canada and the U.S. still have not met or exceeded that. How do you convince those governments to give the money that you need?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Well two things. And the goalkeeper's event and the report are meant to help with these two things. First is to make sure they know that this is money well spent. So the progress we've seen in global health and development, the progress we've seen and poverty eradication in the world is so positive. So the fact that there are people who worry that that poverty will always be with, us disease will always be with us. And so there's a certain pessimism that we'd like to push back against. We're optimist. We think world has made enormous progress. But the other thing that we want people to understand is that we're pro philanthropy. Obviously the Gates Foundation is very positive about philanthropy. But if you look at that thirty 7.6 billion spent in 2016 on development assistance for health, the Gates Foundation's contribution was 2.9 billion and we're the largest private philanthropy in the world. So private philanthropy cannot make up for what governments spend on foreign aid. So if citizens think “well gee this is something for charity or for a philanthropist”, the scope of what's needed in the world is actually a relatively small proportion of rich nations’ government funding, but without those government spending on foreign aid it would be a disaster. All of those gains we've had would disappear. And that's the threat.

AMT: I'm glad you raised that issue of private philanthropy versus governments because there is a growing view that private philanthropy actually lets governments off the hook. How do you respond to that way of thinking?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Private philanthropy will never step in the shoes of government. In terms of its scope, the numbers I just cited just tell you. In the U.S. for example, the Gates Foundation spends approximately a billion dollars on global health R&D. The National Institutes of Health spends well over 30 billion dollars on R&D. So private philanthropy is much too small to make up for government.

AMT: You have talked and written about the role of science in development and you have mentioned a prized possession a cherry wood salad bowl. What's the connection?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: So I talked about a prized possession I have, that is sitting on a shelf in my kitchen. The thing about this salad bowl is it's never been used for salad. And it has deep meaning for me because it is a gift I was given about 1991, when I was a practicing cancer doctor. It was a gift from a widower whose wife had breast cancer and who sadly died of breast cancer under my care. That cherry Bowl means a lot to me because this patient would have been helped by Herceptin. And really a handful of years later I thought of her and her family, her child and her husband who she left behind. And if only we had been able to go faster, with Herceptin, my patient, whose spouse made me this cherry wood bowl and so many patients like her, we could have saved her life. So I bring to our Work at the Gates Foundation and any work I do where I think of someone who's either their life or their family's life could be saved, improved, made better as a result of the work that I'm participating in. And so I have a giant sense of urgency that patient to this day I feel like a failure. I feel like I failed her and her family by running out of options to try and stave off her breast cancer. And so for me, at any stage of life, being able to save someone's life or improve how they experience life, it may be pain management, it may be a kind word, it may be access to education. That has deep meaning to me. And so for me the cherry wood bowl that I've kept for so long is a reminder that every day is precious and that doing something that can give someone more valuable time with their family. A day like that is a good day for me.

AMT: I remember Herceptin. I remember in Canada, the debate, provincial debates going on about who was going to fund it. And the women who knew they could use it and couldn't immediately get it. And how that changed over the years and now it's some it's a word we know it's. And it's also gene based therapy is it not?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: It's so Herceptin is a one of the earliest ever targeted therapies. It was approved in 1998. And it works for about 25% of women with breast cancer. One of the things that I am forever grateful to be able to participate in was the development of Herceptin at Genentech. Gleevec and Herceptin were the first two examples in chronic form of leukemia and in certain forms of breast cancer in the 90s of targeted therapy. It was a revolution in cancer. And I got to be there to see it. It was and is one of the most exciting times of my life.

AMT: I think you're being modest. I don't think you just got to see it. You were part of the development. I think it's interesting that you feel guilty with that salad bowl and yet I have to kind of prod you to talk about - you were part of the team that developed that drug.

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: I was the head of product development at Genentech when that drug was approved. I will always think of that as something that, I told people of and I'll still say you can put it on my headstone when I die. I'm really really super proud of that. My mom and my sister have had breast cancer and are both living and well happily. So that has deep meaning to me. But that is something that inspires me every day at the Gates Foundation when I think - because I have experienced what it feels like to lead and collaborate and participate. And now when I think about tuberculosis, malaria, HIV, these scourges that differentially affect the world's poorest. The Gates Foundation aspires to really make a huge impact on these diseases. If we can make a contribution and make an investment and support scientists and companies and others to make an AIDS vaccine, that's world changing.

AMT: You have written that the scientific community is nervous right now. What do you mean? What are you seeing?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: So there's one thing that always makes scientists nervous is any threat to funding. So a lot of the global dialogue around science funding makes everyone nervous. That is not new news. What is new news is they challenge to truth. The challenge to elites as they're called, and the challenge to truth. People have talked about a post fact world. That is a massive threat to science. And here's what's hard about it; great scientists challenge what we think of today as facts. Great scientists think of “here's what we believe to be true” and scientific breakthroughs happen because you prove that in fact what was convention should no longer be Convention, that scientific facts are actually fluid as they should be. That's the scientific method. We challenge convention and come up with facts based on data. What's true today is that there are people who put forward as facts things that are certifiably provably false. That's a massive threat to scientists. So the scientific community is having I think a healthy dialogue about two things. One is what's the behavioral science and the psychology behind denialism, anti-vaccination, anti-climate change? Scientists need to deeply understand that. And secondly, in an era where some scientists have committed fraud, how do we define truth? What is a scientific fact? And who gets to decide? In the world of scholarship and academia and the world of science, I can think of no debate more important than that debate. Who defines truth? And how do we have healthy debate argument on innovation and advancements in science that require us to challenge each other respectfully but also for people who today have to make a decision about how to treat a human being, a patient or a person who needs a vaccine or a remedy. How do we make sure that clinicians and providers have today's best evidence, while we're trying to innovate and improve?

AMT: Well given those concerns and the earlier concerns of the need for ongoing donor nations to appreciate the need for their continued and increasing donations, Bill and Melinda Gates call themselves impatient optimists. Does this Foundation's inaugural report suggest that the optimism is flagging at all?

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Well I would say that they're impatient optimism remains fully intact. I can certify that they remain impatient and they remain optimistic. What this report intends to do is to address the naysayers and to make sure that the world hears from Bill and Melinda, about as optimistic as any folks I've ever worked with. That in fact that optimism is under attack is under threat.

AMT: Sue Desmond Hellmann thank you for your time today.

SUE DESMOND HELLMANN: Thank you for having me.

AMT: Sue Desmond Hellmann, CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation She joined us from New York City. That's our program for today's. Stay with Radio One for q. Actor Yannick Bisson joins Tom Power to talk about his role as Detective William Murdock in the TV series Murdoch Mysteries. Listen for him. Remember you can always take The Current with you on the CBC Radio app and the Radio Player Canada. They're both free at the App Store or Google Play. Now we were just hearing about the efforts of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to help improve life for the world's most vulnerable people. That, not to mention founding Microsoft, is a fairly impressive accomplishment for a college dropout albeit a Harvard dropout, such as Bill Gates. A decade ago Bill Gates was invited to give a commencement speech at his alma mater, despite the fact that he dropped out. So earlier this year when another Harvard dropout was invited to talk to the school's grads, he reached out to Bill Gates for some tips. He is Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg. And we're going to leave you with their exchange. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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MARK ZUCKERBERG: Well I just got invited to give the commencement address at Harvard this year.

BILL GATES: That's amazing.

MARK ZUCKERBERG: I remember you did it 10 years ago when Priscilla graduated. I was there.

BILL GATES: Yes. It was a lot of fun. You know 30 years later than I was supposed to but I enjoyed it.

MARK ZUCKERBERG: They know we didn't actually graduate. Right?

BILL GATES: Oh that is the best part. They actually give you a degree.

MARK ZUCKERBERG: You don't even have to go to class?

BILL GATES: No no. You just put that on your resume and it looks great.

MARK ZUCKERBERG: Can you help figure out what I am going to say?

BILL GATES: Yes we should work on it together. Let's go get some more snacks.

MARK ZUCKERBERG: All right. So you get to wear the hat and everything. I bet you don't wear anything underneath.

[Laughter]

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September 20, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

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