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The AIH Transcript for September 15, 2017

Hosts: Jim Brown and Chris Howden

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

JIM BROWN: Hello I'm Jim Brown sitting in for Carol off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden sitting in for Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight.

JB: Anything but routine. It was an ordinary morning commute in London today until the detonation of an explosive device injured more than 20 people inside the subway train our guest happened to be on.

CH: Coming up with alarming frequency. Despite new details about alleged sonic attacks in Havana against American and Canadian diplomats, an ex CIA official who worked in Cuba says the sensational story is somewhat unsound.

JB: Parity pooper. For the second time in a row the Canadian arm of an organization that works to advance women in the workplace has looked at all the applicants and appointed a man as the chair of its advisory board.

CH: Things come to a head. In the face of seemingly useless sanctions, South Korea is taking a more aggressive tack against Kim Jong-Un, creating a military team ominously called the decapitation unit.

JB: Strapped for cash. After an outcry from the family of the late man in black and a cease and desist letter from his record company, a white nationalist radio show is forced to stop playing a Johnny Cash song as its theme.

CH: And the un-spell checked is in the mail. When a soccer team in Montpellier — two l's — in France receives jerseys with a letter missing it gets in touch with the appropriate authorities, and arranges to send them to Montpelier in Vermont. As It Happens the Friday edition. Radio that thinks that's one “L”of a nice gesture.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: London train attack, catalyst board, Montpellier jerseys

London train attack

Guest: Chris Wildish

CH: It Was 20 past 8:00 in London, England. The eastbound District Line train from Wimbledon was packed with people in the middle of their morning commute. The train had just pulled into a Parson's Green station and then an improvised explosive device was detonated. Twenty nine people were hospitalized, mostly for burn injuries. The incident is being investigated as a terrorist attack. Chris Wildish was on that train this morning, we reached him earlier today in London.

JB: Mr. Wildish, where were you when this explosive went off?

CHRIS WILDISH: I was on District Line train that runs from Wimbledon into the center of London, sitting quietly reading my book, when the next thing off it went.

JB: What did you see?

CW: The device was at the very back of the last train, I was at the back of the second last train carriage, and just out of the corner of my eye there was a flash of light. As I looked over there was a flash of flame that shot kind of from the from the floor up into the roof of the train, and then very quickly followed by a very strong smell of chemicals, and then a minor stampede as people ran down the train trying to get out of the way.

JB: So you didn't hear anything?

CW: Some people have described hearing a bang — I didn't hear a bang. I heard like, you know the sound when gasoline, when petrol gets lit and it goes whoosh —that's the sound that I heard, and then you saw the flame flash out into the train.

JB: And the flame was inside the carriage?

CW: Yes, yes. We’d just pulled in and the the doors hadn't opened yet, so we were kind of sitting waiting for the doors to open. And then the noise and the flames shooting up into the carriage, so the people standing around the device were quite severely burned — people had quite severe burns — but they were no, well I certainly didn't see any injuries that you would be described as having had a bomb go off, if you know what I mean.

JB: So tell me what happened in in the seconds after the flame — how did people react?

CW: It was strange, the initial reaction was, you could hear like any commotion go on and you either the crowd kind of moved down the train, and then it settled for a second or two — and then it was chaos. Then it was people climbing over seats and over others, and shouting, screaming I'm just trying to get away from the device. At that point the doors to the train opened so people could get off the train along the length of the carriages to get out of the way. So fortunately it didn't create — I saw people falling and people getting tramped on and stomped on — but as the doors opened at that point people could get off the train. So it was OK.

JB: So it sounds like it was just a stampede?

CW: It was a stampede, no question. People ran literally — sounds cliché — but people ran for their lives and it didn't matter what, you know, it was a very full train. So it's like, it's like a wave of people just moving on mass through the train.

JB: Now I understand there were quite a few schoolchildren on the train — were adults helping the school children?

CW: Certainly, certainly once we were off the train and on the platform, people weren’t just helping the kids, they were helping everybody — everybody was kind of helping everybody. So I was a bit stupid and climbed back onto the train because there was a young girl of about 14, who had lost her phone and was desperate to call her mother. So I went on to see if I could find the phone, and funny enough that's when I saw that the device standing there. But the people were fantastic, the emergency services were incredible, they came very quickly and took control of the situation very, very smartly. But it's, it's that thing where people help others in a time of need.

JB: Can you describe the device?

CW: Yeah, the device is — the best way to describe it is what I would call a builder's buckrt. So it's kind of low, squat bucket, and it's in a white plastic bucket and it was placed in a, I'm not sure if you get them in Canada, but in the UK you get insulated carry a bags that people use to put frozen food into take home, it's like a padded foil bag — it was sitting in that. And it has wires hanging out the side of it. There was some black material over the top of it, and it was flaming. So when I went back on, which was after the fact, it was still flaming standing in the corner.

JB: Now you said you saw some people who had been injured — can you describe the injuries that you saw?

CW: Lots of burns, and lots of burns particularly around the heads and faces. And then the other injuries that I saw were people who had fallen or tripped, or you know, bumped, bumped over in the stampede. So they were quite a few people who had grazes, and bumps, and knocks from that.

JB: Now you describe the reaction as being sort of delayed — the initial realization that a flame had just gone off, and then a pause, and then I guess the realization that something much worse could follow?

CW: Unless you were really close proximity to it you wouldn't have known what was going on. I turned and looked at it and I actually thought something had gone wrong with the train. I thought, “oh something’s broken on the train,” and then it takes a little while for your mind to compute because it's the last thing you expect. But your first reaction is, “What was that? Then, “It was that.” And then lets just get as many people off the train as we can. I'm no hero, but you just try and shepherd people off through the panic.

JB: Now as we all know, this is just the latest in a number of terrorist attacks in England this year — specifically in London. Is it rattling? I mean how would you describe the mood in London right now?

CW: Keep Calm and Carry on. I know it's massively clichéd, but I think people's view is we're going to keep going. You know, you can't be bowed and you can't be frightened by people who are out to hurt you, and I guess if you take my case, the chances of it happening to you — until today — are relatively slim. So I think people are stoic and keep going. Yes, you do maybe look over your shoulder a little bit closer, and you do worry a little bit more, but generally speaking people just carry on you get on with it.

JB: Now is this your regular commute — is this the train you take every day?

CW: Yes.

JB: So your family must have been very worried?

CW: Yes, I think it's strange, the first thing you do is you get off the train and you phone your wife or your your partner, in my case my wife, and went “It's fine, it's OK,” but it's comes with shock. I think the thing that really got to me on a personal level is there were so many school kids on the train, and that builds a groundswell of anger because I've got a daughter, and you go, “Come on there’s kids here.” No kid deserves this.

JB: So how are you doing now?

CW: Fine, fine. I'm home, I'm with my family. I will pour myself a glass of wine a little bit later. I think it might take a little while to settle in, but I'm, I'm fine. I think the thing that keeps hitting me was that by the grace of God and if the bomb had gone off properly, or if it was a lot bigger, it could have been a lot worse — but it wasn't. So you frame it and you carry on I guess.

JB: Chris Wildish, thank you very much for joining us.

CW: It's a great pleasure, thank you very much for having me.

CH: We reached Chris wildish earlier today in London, England. Mr. Wildish was on the eastbound District Line train from Wimbledon this morning when an improvised explosive device went off. For the latest on this story go to www.cbc.ca/news

[Music: Piano Ballad]

Catalyst board

Guest: Tanya van Biesen

CH: For the second consecutive time, a man has been chosen to lead an advisory board for a group that advocates for gender parity in the boardroom. Catalyst Canada, an organization that advocates for women in top roles in the workplace, has named Victor Dodig, the CEO of CIBC, to chair the board. This led people to voice their frustration, in the words of one Twitter user, “Wait what.” For the second consecutive time a man has been chosen to lead an advisory board for a group that advocates for gender parity in the boardroom catalyst Canada an organization that advocates for women in top roles in the workplace has named Victor Dodig the CEO of CIBC to chair the board. This led people to voice their frustration in the words of one Twitter user. Wait what. Tanya van Biesen is the Executive Director of Catalyst Canada, she was involved in the decision to name Mr. Dodig as Chairman of the Board. We reached her in Toronto.

JB: Ms. van Biesen, your organization just named a man to lead an advisory board on increasing women's leadership in the business world. Can you see why people are upset about this decision?

TANYA VAN BIESEN: You know what Jim, on the surface I can. But just to clarify our mission — Catalyst’s mission is to advance women in the workplace. So the workplace — just to throw out an important fact — ninety-five per cent of corporations in North America are led by men, and that's a stat that we want to change as much or more than anybody. But the reality is, in order to change that we need to move this discussion from being a women's issue, to what it really is, which is a societal issue.

JB: But you say your mandate is to push for advancement of women in the workplace, isn’t it also to promote gender equity in the boardroom, and in the executive offices?

TVB: No question.

JB: So can you at least see a problem with the optics of this?

TVB: I don't see this as an optics question at all. I have said this many times, and I stand by this — this is not a women's discussion. It is very important that we all engage on why it's important to have women in leadership roles, and I need men to be part of that discussion. Victor is an outstanding choice for Chair because as you may know he's also the founding Chair of the 30 per cent club in Canada. So he has been very vocal and intentional on advanced on the topic of advancing women, not only within CIBC but very broadly across the country. And so we were at this unique point in time, where as founding chair the 30 per cent club and a member of my board, it was an opportunity to bring the voices of the 30 per cent club and Catalyst together.

JB: But what you're telling me, the same words could come from the mouth of the Executive Director of any of the corporations with male dominated boards. This is exactly what they say to justify the composition of their board. Shouldn't you be saying something different?

TVB: I guess how I would respond to that is, the opposite of that is, “should women's advocacy organizations only have women in them?” Because to me that seems like the only other option when people talk about this, and I don't see that as an option at all. We're never going to crack the code and change the game here unless we have everybody involved. Victor has been very vocal about the importance of women in leadership because he sees it as a way to empower his organization and other Canadian organizations. That, to me, is a critical message in all of this. He is seeking, he and the other members of my board, are seeking the very best talent for their organizations, which clearly comes in both female and male form. So that's the kind of perspective that I need. And he has also taken that to his organization and he's convincing his other male senior leaders across the organization to do that.

JB: The fact though, that your previous chair was a man — did that make it more difficult to sign off on this?

TVB: I mean, I guess if you — I would say no it didn't make it more difficult. Did we think about it? Sure we thought about it. But again, for us — I feel this in my bones— that in order to effect change we've got to move this out of being a women's only issue or, you know, it all has to be led by women and that men can't play a leadership role. Men can play a leadership role here, they can play an important leadership role here, and that doesn't mean they dominate the conversation but they can play an important leadership role. I think actually, I think this is a great discussion we're having, I really welcome it, because this is also about ally-ship right. What role do allies play in in helping broaden the discussion? And I think Victor's a great example of an ally in this whole issue.

JD: What is the role of the chair of the advisory board for advisory board?

TVB: The advisory board meets twice a year and it's truly what you would think. They are advisors to me as Executive Director. They help me to think through strategies and programming to advance our Canadian mission. They also help me to create greater reach in various industry sectors and in regions because we are small but mighty — we're an organization of 10 people. So they help us as ambassadors in their industries and in their region.

JB: And the chair is a man and I understand that 12 of the 19 board members are also men. Can we draw anything from that?

TVB: Well, I mean, I'll let you draw whatever you want from that but the reality is our board is like any board, it's a living breathing thing and it changes as people change positions.

JB: Now, Canada is lagging behind developed countries around the world when it comes to women in leadership roles in the workforce. Why do you think that is?

TVB: First of all, it depends on the indicators you're looking at. But if we just look at the board level we are lagging slightly behind the US and the UK. Each one of those jurisdictions is very different. The UK has done a very good job of blending a combination of senior business leaders with regulation and government to influence change in that market. Canada we have done, I think, a pretty good job of engaging business leaders and regulators, government has been a little less involved notwithstanding what the Trudeau government has been talking about and doing, but they've been a little less involved maybe in the naming and shaming that the UK market has done.

JB: So if we did move to more of a naming and shaming society, how does that reflect on the news release by your organisation today? Should you be named and shamed for having a board that's mainly men and chaired by a man?

TVB: I'm happy to be called out, and as I say, I'm happy to have this discussion because I think it is a really important discussion. We are we are an advocacy organization.

TVB: We're not a CIBC, or RBC, or you insert corporate company name here, we are an advocacy organization and I can tell ninety-eight per cent of our staff are female. So we, if anything, we need to bring more men into the organization to create gender balance. So I am very happy to have this discussion with you.

JB: Ms. Van Biesen thank you very much for joining us.

TVB: Thank you.

CH: Tanya van Biesen is the Executive Director of Catalyst Canada. We reached her in Toronto. Now speaking of equality, what does it look like in your office? And is your workforce heading toward gender equality? All month long CBC Radio is taking a look at the future of work in our series Work Shift. We'll be talking about everything from artificial intelligence to climate change. If you want to hear more, head to www.cbc.ca/workshift and browse through a constantly expanding page of stories.

[Music: Ambient]

Montpellier jerseys

Guest: Bill Fraser

CH: Because of a printing error, a professional soccer club in Montpellier, France has a batch of useless jerseys. Montpellier is spelled with two “Ls”, but when the New Jersey arrived they had only one “L.” Thing is though, there is a city whose name matches those misspelled jerseys. Montpelier, the capital of Vermont. So turns out that gear isn't going to go to waste. Bill Fraser is the City Manager in Montpelier, Vermont. We reached him at his office earlier today.

JB: Mr. Fraser, how did your office first hear that you're going to be getting a shipment of professional soccer jerseys from France?

BILL FRASER: Funny story, we actually heard about it second hand. Apparently soccer team in France and the Mayor of Monpellier posted a tweet that they were going to do this, and ESPN picked it up and all of a sudden we started hearing from residents and friends saying, “What's this about?” And then I think on Tuesday, because there's a time change there, so on Tuesday we heard from the Mayor's office to our office telling us to see it happened and were we interested and there’s been some back and forth, and we actually got a formal letter from Montpellier Mayor today offering these.

JB: So how do you plan to use the jerseys?

BF: Still to be determined. One of the things we don't know is how many we're getting. One of the news accounts that I read from France said it could these could be hundreds. Apparently the team’s jerseys for the whole season, as well as the replica jerseys that they sell to fans. So you kmow people can buy a Blue Jays jersey or a Maple Leafs jersey for themselves, same as this, these people can buy Montpellier soccer jersey. So they recalled them all and they're sending them, apparently, all to us. So we don't know the number, but assuming there's some sort of critical mass, they're really designed to go to the high school and middle school soccer teams. So I think the first use is being the high school and middle school kids play a game or two in them, you know it’ll the fun for them. And I think there's talk of a big group photo with everybody at our capitol building so we can send that back to Montpellier, and then the surplus shirts we're going to probably sell to raise money for youth activities in the community. So a lot of local interest — people want them — and we want to make sure our locals, and then if some leftover, people from out of town, out of state can get them. And so it seems like a really nice way for us to have a fun event and also turn this into a positive for our youth activities. We're also thinking of maybe sending one each to — there are I think eight other Montpelier’s in the United States — we’re thinking of sending one each, to each of them. But again it really depends on whether we get, you know, 20 or 200, so we don't we don't know the number yet.

JB: Sometimes when something has a mistake in it, it becomes a collector's item like a stamp that's printed upside down or something. Perhaps these jerseys could become quite valuable?

BF: Well I would think so. I mean, you know, honestly if a Montpellier soccer fan and I had got one of these, I think I would keep it. You know they're offering to let people turn them back in and get another one but I think I’d hang onto it if I were them.

JB: Has anything like this ever happened before?

BF: Not like this. We've had some contact with Montpellier over the years. I think a former mayor of ours went to there for their 500th birthday celebration, a number of years ago. But you know we were named after them, but we really haven't had a lot of contact with them as far as, you know, sort of misspelling thing. No to this extent and certainly not with this much publicity.

JB: So Montpelier, Vermont is named after Montpellier, France?

BF: That's correct.

JB: And how did that all come to be.

BF: You know, I don't really know. Other than, you know, Vermont is also a French derived name for green mountain, and whoever settled that the city must have had some connection with France.

JB: Do you know why your Montpelier only has one “L” in it?

BF: Maybe they were bad spellers.

JB: One was enough I guess.

BF: That's right, exactly — frugal Americans, frugal New Englanders. Now why use two when one will work.

JB: Now what's the reaction been from the residents of Montpelier to this story?

BF: People love this. It's really — it's just a feel good story. There's a lot of stress right now in the world with hurricanes, and international tensions, and you know politics and everything else. I think this is just a feel good story that people have reacted very positively to. It was really generous on their part because they could have just tossed the jersey’s somewhere and instead they chose to send them to some strangers across the ocean — so very, very thoughtful of them. So number one reaction is, this is really cool, number two reaction is, “How do I get one?”

JB: So how about reaction from the players at Montpelier High School have you heard from any of them?

BF: Well, they're high schoolers, so I haven't heard directly other than I have a son who's a classmate my sources — him — are telling me that they're pretty excited. I know the athletic director, I had contact with the principals and the athletic director today and they really are crazy about hopefully having the kids play a game or so in these jerseys.

JB: I don't know what your high school soccer uniforms look like, but if they look anything like mine did, these European jerseys are going to be a serious upgrade.

BF: This will be a serious upgrade. Yeah , no that's right. And in fact it's one of those funny little quirky details the athletic director says yeah we've got to get a special exception because we're supposed to only play in our team colours, and these are different colours, so they’re going to have get them to get some rule exception to be allowed to play a game in them. And that's I think they'll be fine. We're actually thinking that we may send some of our jerseys back to them as a thank you. Wouldn't that be fun to get a pro player in a high school jersey?

JB: Absolutely. Now you said they'll only be wearing them for a couple of games if they go on a winning streak it’s going to be tough taking those jerseys back.

BF: Well I would think so yes. And soccer here — both the boys and girls soccer — is a big deal here. We've had traditionally strong teams, so you’re right, this could be the beginning of something.

JB: Well Bill Fraser thank you very much for joining us, and I hope you and everyone in Montpelier enjoys the jerseys.

BF: I'm sure we will and thank you for including this and my best to you. I love Toronto, it's a great city. So good luck to you.

JB: Thank you very much. Bye now.

BF: Bye now.

CH: Bill Fraser is the City Manager of Montpelier, Vermont. If you want to see a picture of the typo we've got the jerseys up on our website. Just go to www.cbc.ca/aih

[Music: Pop-Rock]

Johnny cash vs. white supremacists

CH: It's a song most of us know, and for years a white nationalist radio show has been using it as its theme music — Johnny Cash's version of I Won't Back Down. But recently Stormfront Radio was ordered to stop using the track. The request came in the form of a cease-and-desist letter from Universal Music Group and American Recordings. According to NPR, which received a copy, the letter was addressed to the website that hosts the program online and Stormfront founder Don Black, a former leader of the Ku Klux Klan. Stormfront Radio has since stopped using the song and removed it from its archives. This comes a month after Johnny Cash's children wrote on social media about a self-proclaimed neo-Nazi in Charlottesville saying they were sickened when they learned he was wearing a Johnny Cash shirt. The Facebook post reads quote, “To any who claim supremacy over other human beings. To any who believe in racial or religious hierarchy, we are not you. Our father as a person, icon or symbol is not you. We ask that the Cash name be kept far away from destructive and hateful ideology,” unquote.

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Part 2: Sonic mystery, decapitation unit

Sonic mystery

Guest: Fulton Armstrong

CH: The plot thickens, but it still doesn't make any sense. Perhaps you've heard about the so-called “sonic attack” in Havana against American and Canadian diplomats. At first details were scarce but a story by The Associated Press this week revealed a disturbing picture of diplomats being awoken in the dead of night by strange noises and suffering serious health effects because of them. We now know the symptoms from these noises have included speech problems, permanent loss of hearing and even mild traumatic brain injury. It's still not clear what device could have caused these injuries or who might have carried the attacks out. Fulton Armstrong is a former CIA official who used to be stationed in Havana. We reached him in Washington D.C.

JB: Now Mr. Armstrong, I wonder how you try to make sense of this story out of Havana. I mean it sounds like some kind of complicated espionage thriller.

FULTON ARMSTRONG: It does sound like a thriller. It's a mystery, within a mystery, within the mystery. I'm a trained analyst, and probably a little analytical by personality, and have a lot of problems with the situation in which we know so little but have such strong impulses to speculate, and the speculation in this case reflects our prejudices rather than facts, and reality, and can get in the way. We always have to remember that in this case the basic facts are still far, far from clear.

JB: Now since you've spent time in Havana I have to ask you, did you ever hear of anything even remotely like this going on?

FA: Not even remotely going on during the time that I was in Havana, or frankly, I've covered the bilateral relationship from a number of different perches in the United States government, including the White House, and the National Intelligence Council, and the United States Senate, and I've never even heard of such things.

JB: So the whole idea of sonic attacks this is a new one on you?

FA: Sonic attacks yes, that the term is new. Although it's been used in certain military context major militaries including the United States, and I imagine, the other big guys on the block have been experimenting, and I think, even implementing certain battlefield technologies that use sound waves to disable an enemy. I've never heard of those systems ever being used on such a small scale that it could be hitting one point in a room, one single room in a hotel for example, which thanks to the excellent reporting by The Associated Press we at least have that vignette to try to make sense of.

JB: I think just for our listeners I'd like to describe a few of the details that the AP reported this week. One American diplomat described being jolted awake by a grinding, blaring noise, only to have that noise disappear when he walked just a few steps away from his bed. Other diplomats felt vibrations. Others heard high pitched chirping similar to crickets. Others heard nothing but still suffered symptoms later. Is this a technology that's creating these attacks, and if it is what could it possibly be?

FA: I don't know the answer to either question. Technology has always been very much part of international relations, particularly on the spy versus spy side. Major country's, major services have used microwaves, and even laser technology, even music to bounce sound waves off of particular venues and then pull back a signal that would hopefully let them understand what's happening inside that facility.

JB: Like a sonar?

FA: Like a sonar — but this is using different kinds of waves, in a different medium — but yeah the same idea. The problem is that, first of all there is no knowledge that Cuba has been using such technology, but also that you usually use those in situations where you don't have access to the facility. In the case of a hotel room, of course if the Cuban service, and that's a big if, if the Cuban service we're interested in what's being discussed in a particular room they have access to that room. So why would you use such fancy technology to do it. It just doesn't work also because no good officer of the Canadian government, which is a part of the story that we really need to try to figure out as well, because for Americans to be targeted is one thing, for Canadians to be targeted, I think it means something very different. But no good officer of any government is discussing classified secret operations in a hotel room.

JB: Yes, certainly the history of Canadian-Cuban relations is a lot different than the history of American-Cuban relations. So we don't know what it is and we don't know who's doing it?

FA: On the who side, there's a lot of speculation. One of the speculative scenarios is, that there's a rogue element of the Cuban government or the Cuban counter-intelligence service, that's doing this to somehow throw off the great progress that's been made in U.S.-Cuba bilateral relations. Another one of those scenarios is that a renegade unit somewhere in the Cuban government wants to ruin bilateral relations to throw off Raul Castro's very calibrated, very cautious, transition scenario, which is just now starting because he's going to retire in February. There's no evidence to support that, in fact, there's circumstantial evidence that would argue in directly the opposite direction. The elements of the Cuban government that have been really capitalizing on the tensions between the two sides, have been very much with the program since normalization started. There was real steady collaboration and cooperation across the board between the two governments. Maybe it's a third country know, maybe it's the North Koreans, or maybe it's the Russians or something. Have third parties done naughty things in Cuba that the U.S. and Cuba have bilaterally resolved? The answer is yes. In the past and non-state actors like the narco traffickers and stuff we have collaborated to try to deal with these various issues in the past. Is that what's happening right now? What would the motive be — and why would they be doing it in Havana, Cuba when they could be doing in places that are much less under local or U.S. scrutiny?

JB: Now the U.S. expelled two Cuban diplomats from Washington but no one, at least publicly, in the administration has accused Cuba of perpetrating these attacks. What does that tell you?

FA: It tells me that even though the Trump administration likes its red meat issues and would love to trounce — if somebody were doing something truly bad to our diplomats, even this administration has been reluctant to reach the conclusion of Cuban involvement or Cuban even Cuban knowledge, on the third party thing. In the end the epidemiologists should be doing serious interviews on the range of environmental factors that these people have been in. Not just the so-called attack scenarios but what else could be going on around these buildings, around these people that don't have anything to do with them and they are collateral damage. I don't want to in any way belittle the suffering of the victims involved, or the seriousness of the issue. But Cuba right now is going through a very difficult phase. I mean even pre-hurricane — they're going through that in technology and it's Band-Aids it's all held together with Band-Aids and baling wire. The way the old cars are driven up and down the streets, the electrical system, the microwave towers that the phone company uses, all this technology is around them and it's dirty technology — a lot of it is old Soviet stuff. So if anybody looking at least the patterns of that.

JB: What's your gut telling you?

FA: My gut would be a little bit politically incorrect. And that is that we need to go back to the State Department and say, “OK you have to give people a little bit more information. And if you guys are reluctant to do the analysis of what the real causes are you, have to let other people do it,” because none of the easy explanations is working. Not the technology one, not the bilateral one, not the rogue elements, not the third party — none of this stuff is making sense. You've got to help the world make sense of this because the implications are very serious.

JB: Fulton Armstrong thank you for joining us.

FA: My pleasure.

CH: Fulton Armstrong is a former CIA official who served in Havana. He now works as a research fellow at the Center for Latin American and Latino Studies at the American University in Washington, D.C.

[Music: Ambient Chimes & Bass]

Decapitation unit

Guest: Park Hui-rak

CH: The U.N. Security Council recently passed its toughest sanctions yet against North Korea but that did not stop the country from conducting another missile test yesterday. The ballistic missile flew over Japan before landing in the sea off Hokkaido. And once again the test drew widespread condemnation from world leaders, and it sparked yet another plan for the U.N. Security Council to meet. Now some countries are mulling a different approach, and South Korea certainly has a provocative one. It's just approved plans to create what's being called a “decapitation unit.” You heard that right. We called up a retired colonel with the South Korean military to explain Park Hui-rak was in Seoul.

JB: Mr. Park, could I begin by asking you for your reaction to this latest missile test by North Korea?

PARK HIU-RAK: Yeah, I think that I and the world would agree, that North Korea is determined to execute its plan to have ICBMs which could strike the United States. I think that North Korea would continue this kind of a real distant fire. And I think someday North Korea would fly at the ICBMs to the Antarctic Sea or somewhere.

JB: Now this missile launch came right after the U.N. Security Council placed another set of sanctions against North Korea. It’s The eighth set of sanctions — are they helping?

PHR: So far the sanctions did not work. We don't know, We may need more time. But in the past we agreed on lots of resolutions and we tried to enforce lots of economic sanction measures, but North Korea continues to develop its nuclear weapons and it's ballistic missiles. We have a tendency to analyze North Koreas intention instead of analyzing North Korean capability. I think that North Korean missile test has more things to do with its original plan to have ICBMs which could strike the United States.

JB: Let's turn now to the reason that we initially wanted to call you, and it's about this so-called “decapitation unit.” Let me start with a very blunt question. Does your country have a plan to decapitate Kim Jong-Un?

[LAUGHTER]

PHR: That could be confidential that it's one of the desperate measures we have to take. We don't have nuclear weapons, so we cannot threaten North Korea that if you attack us we will retaliate with more powerful nuclear weapons because we do not do not have nuclear weapons. So our threatening message to North Korea is that if Kim Jong-Un decides that nuclear attack to South Korea, South Korea would kill Kim Jong-Un. So that could be the only kind of realistic and possible ways for South Korea to change Kim Jong-Un’s mindset for the nuclear attack.

JB: And how would this unit work?

PHR: We don't know. I think that South Korean special forces have a good relationship with U.S. Special Forces. Also I think the U.S. would help to make that unit achieve its mission.

JB: The fact that South Korea is being so public about this strategy — you have to feel that a lot of this is basically intended to make Kim Jong-Un nervous.

PHR: Yes you're right. I think that you know that South Korea and North Korea is technically at war, and some say that North Korea develop nuclear weapons to be recognized as a nuclear state, and to protect its regime, or to have a good conditions for the negotiation with the United States, or to consolidate Kim Jong-Un's domestic support, but we believe that North Korea developed their nuclear weapons in order to reunify the Korean Peninsula on its terms — in other words colonization of South Korea. So we should be very nervous, and we should try all possible means to defend our country and that could be the idea of the decapitation unit.

JB: But I'm wondering if it's a good idea to make an unstable, unpredictable neighbor, who could be holding a nuclear bomb in his hand — I'm wondering if it's a good idea to make him nervous.

PHR: Yes you’re right. Yes, I think the world leaders and people may misunderstand Kim Jong-Un. Kim Jong-Un, I think, is very smart. Right now I think that Kim Jong-Un is doing what he wants all the time. That means that the United States, South Korea t and the world may miss something, that is that we provided too much freedom of action to him.

JB: But couldn't something like this decapitation unit — couldn't it backfire? I mean, you know, if this unit was engaged what's to prevent North Korea from taking the actions that all of us have been fearing?

PHR: The important mission to this unit is not to kill Kim Jong-Un before a nuclear war. The mission is, if Kim Jong-Un attacked South Korea with nuclear weapons, this unit would go into North Korean territory and find Kim Jong-Un and kill — so killing in advance may not work. And we know that is a very risky, and even though we kill Kim Jong-Un there could be some other guy who controls the nuclear weapons and who decides to attack South Korea. So its main mission is deterrence not attack.

JB: Is it your contention that South Korea needs its own nuclear weapons?

PHR: In theory I think that the only weapons which could defend a country from a nuclear armed country, is a nuclear weapon. Without nuclear weapons we cannot make an effective deterrent. So I think that it is becoming a very hard time for South Korea and many South Koreans are getting very, very desperate and frustrated.

JB: Now I know the residents of your country are used to living in the shadow of the North's rhetoric and posturing, but is it different now? Do people feel differently now on the streets of Seoul?

PHR: Yes, I think that there are lots of frustration, and desperation and fear. I wrote a book titled We Need To Survive The Nuclear War. I specified how to duck and cover, and how to sustain for 14 years underground. And recently many people demanded that book. South Korean people started to feel that the crisis or danger is coming. And I think that fear is increasing and instability of the people's mind increasing more so, I think.

Mr. Park thank you very much for joining us.

PHR: You're welcome.

CH: Park Hui-Rak is a retired colonel with the South Korean military and a politics professor at Kookmin University. We reached him in Seoul.

[Music: Woodwinds]

Polaris Prize nominee: Leonard Cohen

CH: Throughout his career Leonard Cohen was leaving or being left. He sang about goodbyes and endings over and over again, but this time he was serious. Although, as usual, not completely serious. I mean, the guy had written so often about darkness called his last album, You Want It Darker. It's one of 10 albums on the shortlist for the 2017 Polaris Music Prize. It was co-produced by his son Adam who turned his father's house into his studio, since he wasn't well enough to travel. Leonard Cohen told Brian D. Johnson of Maclean’s Magazine that the album wasn't specifically conceived as his last, but at this stage in the game he said, “You know that all your activities are subject to abrupt cancellation.” Whether he planned it or not the whole album took on new meaning after his death on November 7th of last year at the age of 82.

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Part 3: Cocoa report, jeep owner

Suffield military fire

CH: He told us about more than 100 dead animals — some so badly injured that they had to be killed. You might have heard our interview with rancher Daryl Swenson on the program yesterday. He lives in Southern Alberta north of Medicine Hat, and there was a grass fire on his property earlier this week. Mr. Swensen lives close to the Canadian Forces Base Suffield, and he blames the base for the fire. CFB Suffield has confirmed that a fire started on the base following the detonation of unexploded ordinance. But they're investigating to determine if that fire caused damage to ranchers. Earlier today the CBC's David Gray spoke with Suffield’s base commander Lieutenant Colonel Mike Onieu about the investigation. Here's a clip.

SOUNDCLIP

LIEUTENANT COLONEL MIKE ONIEU: So in this case the point of the investigation is to determine the reasons why we needed to detonate an old bomb. So that it will be one of the outcomes of the investigation is to say — why did we do it, and was it necessary?

DAVID GRAY: It's clear you've got some bridges to build but the ranchers in that area, they met yesterday — they are hopping mad, to put it mildly. They are looking for some recompense. If it's found that the military is responsible, and I haven't heard you say anything that says they aren't, will you make up for the losses?

MO: That is, of course, the other great question. And I don't like the answer that I give. I am absolutely not denying that we are responsible. We, as much as everyone else, want to get to the bottom of this in a in a fair, honest and transparent way. It seems obvious to everyone outside the base that this would be our fault. But in fact, the legal establishment of liability is actually a complex issue. We need to prove the causation, the faults, and the damages, and we can't assume that just because it looks like it was our fault that it actually was. So assigning that liability is one of the outcomes of being the board of inquiry. So that's why we're ramping it up very quickly so we can we can we can set the conditions for people to claim compensation if they want to.

CH: That was Lieutenent Colonel Mike Onieu, Base commander at CFB Suffield in Alberta, speaking with the CBC's David Gray, the host of the Calgary Eyeopener.

[Music: Building Ambient Waves]

Cocoa report

Guest: Etelle Higonnet

CH: A new report is linking the global chocolate industry to widespread deforestation. According to the NGO Mighty Earth, cocoa farmers in West Africa are illegally growing cocoa beans in national parks and other protected areas. That's contributing to large scale destruction of rain forests, and the cocoa that's produced has made its way into the supply chains of some of the world's biggest chocolate producers. Etelle Higonnet lead the research. We reached her in Abidjan Ivory Coast, and bear with us we reached Ms. Higonnet near a busy market. So you may hear some noise in the background.

JB: Can you describe the extent of the deforestation that you've seen in Ivory Coast?

ETELLE HIGGONET: The deforestation is truly dire. We're talking about a country that lost 85 per cent of its forest through 1990 and 2015. And personally driving through some of these protected areas, I just felt heartbroken. I really felt sick to my stomach seeing these poor little tree skeletons and burned trees just poking through this sea of cocoa that stretched out as far as the eye could see.

JB: So that 85 per cent that you say has been lost — how much of that is linked to the cocoa industry?

EH: Nationwide in the Ivory Coast, Thirty per cent of deforestation give or take about 27 to 30 per cent, is due to cocoa. That’s very similar to Ghana where also around 30 per cent of deforestation people assume is due to Cocoa. But in protected areas deforestation is even more acute.

JB: Now these protected areas — I assume they're similar to our national parks. I mean, this kind of activity is forbidden. How has this been allowed to happen?

EH: So we did, like other researchers, documented reports of corruption with local representatives of Ivorian state bodies being involved in receiving money to sort of turn the other way. But I think it's very important to remember that this was not an Ivorian problem alone. Let's talk about the governments in Ghana, and Indonesia, and Peru and all the other places for the industry has been driving deforestation. And I think what this this brings us back to, is that it’s the industry that needs to stop driving season

JB: And what kind of an impact is that deforestation having on the environment there?

EH: The environmental damage is horrific. You know, the Ivory Coast as its name indicates, used to be home to tens-of-thousands of elephants and now there just a few hundred elephants left. And it's not just elephants — chimpanzees are endangered, smaller primates are either actually extinct or going extinct. And I have to say it's not just about animals, because without forests human beings suffer too. You know, forests are basically motors for rain. Without forests you don't have rain, without rain the Ivory Coast is experiencing extreme hydrological change as a result of forest destruction. The same is true in Ghana, and it will be true in other countries too, unless the industry turns around and reverses course. The best estimate that we hear from Ivorian authorities is that 30 to 40 per cent of Ivorian cocoa coming in by the protected areas — the Ivory Coast is the world's biggest producer of cocoa. I just find it hard to believe that people did not know, and for sure and now they know, because I have told them. I personally sent around our records to every single chocolate company that we name in our report.

JB: Well name them for us now? Which chocolate companies are using this illegal cocoa?

EH: We trace the chain of culpability all the way from the farmers that are inside the protected area, up to three really big cocoa traders — Olam, Cargill, and Barry Callebaut. So some of their clients include Mars, Mondelez, Godiva, Nestle, Unilever, Lindt — we're talking about almost all the big cocoa companies in the world.

JB: And what are these companies saying about that?

EH: Many companies have told us that they don't really want to talk to us one on one. They would rather too as in a group setting. And we've had companies that have made amazing commitments like Barry Callebaut, going for full traceability, full transparency. That's very encouraging. All the way to the worst response, which is from Godiva, which is literally no response at all. And we also didn't really get a response from Mars which, This is very disappointing.

JB: Now investigating the cocoa industry in Ivory Coast can be very dangerous. I know a Canadian journalist disappeared while he was researching essentially the same problem that you're reporting on now. How concerned are you for your safety?

EH: To be honest it was quite nerve wracking. It was a very frightening experience. And it was a dangerous investigation. And that's the reason almost everyone who spoke to me was afraid because I think people are very worried about the consequences of speaking out. But that's all the more reason for us to bite the bullet and talk about this all now, and get it all in the open so that the light of day can shine on this dark problem.

JB: What can the chocolate consumer do with this information? How are we supposed to react? How are we supposed to make ethical choices?

EH: I believe that every consumer can be part of the problem or can be part of the solution, and it's up to us to choose. We vote with our dollars as consumers. You know, I'm a consumer, I love chocolate, I buy chocolate for my husband. I buy chocolate for my friends when I go visit them. And I think it is our responsibility to think twice before we vote with our dollars — to buy chocolate that we know actually good chocolate. Ethical chocolate that is sourced responsibly, where it's protecting forests and not hurting then we can all do that.

JB: Ms. Higonnet, you very much for joining us.

EH: It was a pleasure. Thank you so much for the chance to speak with you and your listeners.

CH: Etelle Higonnet is the Campaign Director at the NGO Mighty Earth we reached her in Abidjan, Ivory Coast.

[Music: Sombre Piano]

Ig Nobel Prizes 2017

Guest: Mark Abrams

CH: The common definition of liquid is a material that can adapt its shape to its container, but as countless pictures on the Internet have shown, cats adapt to the shape of their containers. They fill sinks, they fill small boxes, they definitely feel comically large wineglasses. So can a cat be of liquid? That research question earned one French physicist an Ig Nobel last night, at The Twenty-Seventh Annual Ig Nobels. The Harvard hosted ceremony bestows prizes on the people behind unusual, funny science. Mark Abrams is the creator of the Ig Nobels. We've reached him in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

JB: Mark Abrams first of all you can't leave us hanging here — can a cat be a liquid?

MARK ABRAMS: Well, technically I could leave you hanging but I won't. Technically, yes a cat can be a liquid. We gave an Ig Nobel Prize in the field of physics last night, to Marc-Antoine Fardin, a physicist from France, because he used fluid dynamics to probe that very question — can a cat be both a solid and a liquid? It's a really detailed physics investigation what he points out, among other things is, that almost anything that you look at, that you know for sure is a solid, that depends on how long you look at it.

JB: So presumably 100 years from now we could be talking about Fardin’s cat in much the same way we today talk about Schrodinger's cat.

MA: I hope you and I are both around to do that.

[LAUGHTER]

JB: Now I understand that Monsieur Fardin made a little bit of a dig at Bob Dylan at the ceremony. He said it might be cool to refuse a Nobel, but it's certainly uncool to refuse an Ig Nobel. Is is your prize generally considered to be that much of an honor?

[LAUGHTER]

MA: Well, by some people it is. We offer the prize to people, generally give them the opportunity to quietly say no if they want, but pretty much everybody excepts. So we generally have a happy group and most of them seem to be pretty proud of it — I think they have good reason to be.

JB: So that was the physics prize, who took home the anatomy prize the anatomy prize?

MA: The anatomy prize was Dr. James Heathcoat from England, who published a study in the British Medical Journal. The study is called, Why do old men have big ears?

JB: Gravity?

[LAUGHTER]

MA: The essential thing —he only partially answered it — and of course the study entirely ignored old women. But part of it is that this, and also other studies that other people have since done, say that it appears that with most people the ears are one part of the body that keeps growing throughout a person's entire lifetime — not all body parts do that.

JB: So it's not a matter of the head shrinking and making the ears look bigger by comparison?

MA: Well, now you're raising really interesting questions and I suggest that you get a hold of Dr. Heathcoat and try to persuade him.

JB: I’m writing myself a note right now. OK now I understand there was also a peace prize category — who won that this year?

HA: The peace prize went to a team from Switzerland, Canada, the Netherlands and the USA, for demonstrating that regular playing of a didgeridoo is an effective treatment for obstructive sleep apnea and also for snoring.

JB: And why would research on basically on snoring be awarded the Peace Prize?

MA: Well, c'mon if you don't see the answer to that question.

JB: Now I see that the journal Nature once said of your Ig Nobels. These come with little cash but much cache.

MA: Yeah, that's no longer true. We figured out a way a few years ago to give cash to the winners. The problem is we have no money ourselves. What we realized is that we could, and now we do, give each winning team who comes to the ceremony one-hundred-trillion-dollars. Each of them gets a 100-trillion-dollar bill from Zimbabwe.

JB: So can you pick out a couple of other favorites a couple of other people that took home the Zimbabwean bank notes?

HA: Sure. Gee Won Han, who was a high school student when he did this work a couple of years ago, published a physics paper to learn what happens when a person walks backwards while carrying a cup of coffee. We gave an Ig Nobel Prize a few years ago to a team of physics professors who had investigated the physics of why it's difficult for a person to walk forwards while carrying a cup of coffee. It turns out that the mechanics the way our bodies are built make it nearly impossible to do that without spilling. This high school student in South Korea looked at what happens when you walk backwards. And he found out that you're not going to be as prone to shake the cup and spill it, although, you probably might be a little more prone to trip on something.

JB: So other potential fields of research would be walking sideways and spinning with a cup of coffee I guess?

MA: Yeah, am I talking to somebody who's, tempted to leave the radio world and head off to the lab.

JB: It's always been a dream. Now tell me when does the hunt for the 2018 Ig Nobel candidates begin — are you already looking?

MA: Oh yes, we've been looking for years for. Anything that's promising that we do not choose in one year, we put back into the pool for the following year. And this was the 27th year, and consider that, as I mentioned, in a typical year we'll get nine-ten thousand nominees. There are a lot of good things out there. That being said, we know that no matter what we're aware of, there is even more, probably even better stuff. Most of these nominations come from the public, which includes a lot of the scientists who do the work, and their rivals and their institutions. So if anybody ever knows of something that makes people laugh and then think, then get in touch with us.

JB: Mark Abrams thank you very much for joining us.

MA: Thank you very much, and congratulations on winning a prize this year, and I'm sorry you didn't win a prize this year.

JB: Wait till next year. Bye now.

MA: Bye

CH: Mark Abrams is the creator of the Ig Nobels and the editor of The Annals of Improbable Research. We reached him in Cambridge, Massachusetts the 27th Annual Ig Nobels were held last night at Harvard University's Sander's theater, and the ceremony also involved a little bit of opera.

SOUNDCLIP

Psychologists have shown that people unskilled at something somehow do not know their own incompetence. No. Incompetence.

Jeep owner

Guest: John Fawcett

CH: If your new car breaks down it's no fun. but fortunately you've got that sweet new car warranty so you take it in to your local dealer for repairs. But things aren't so simple for John Fawcett. That's because he and his broken down Jeep live in Iqaluit, Nunavut. That's where we reached him.

JB: Hello Mr. Fawcett.

JOHN FAWCETT: Hello Jim.

JB: So your Jeep broke down and you called up the Chrysler to report the problem — what did they tell you?

JF: Well Fiat-Chrysler had told me that I needed to bring, as the consumer, I needed to bring my car to the nearest Chrysler dealership.

JB: Makes sense and where is the nearest Chrysler dealership?

JF: Well, that happens to be about three hours away by plane, in Ottawa.

JB: Three hours by plane?

JF: Yes sir.

JB: So say you decided you were going to bring your Jeep in to the nearest dealership in Ottawa — how much would that cost you?

JF: Well we have two options. The first option is by plane obviously, and that would be $12,000 each way so approximately $24,000.

JB: How much did the Jeep cost?

JF: The jeep itself only costs $22,000. The other option for shipping would be by sealift. We received three or four sealifts per year. So if I were to send it down on one of those sealifts I would have to wait until at least next spring before I would be able to receive it.

JB: Wait for the ice to melt?

JF: Yes, exactly.

JB: Yeah. So how did you react when you heard this that that they were insisting on you sending your Jeep to Ottawa?

JF: Well, I took to social media. So many times here in the north people feel that they have no other options, and I refuse to believe that. I believe that we are customers just like any other customer that Fiat-Chrysler may have, and we deserve to have this service. So I took to social media, I started a small Twitter campaign, and I started a boycott on change.org that has over 100 signatures right now.

JB: What actually is wrong with your Jeep?

JF: I was driving coming home from work, and my car shifted into neutral as I was driving down the street. I was able to safely pull to the side of the road and I was able to fiddle with it a little bit to get it into first gear, so I could get myself home. But once I got home I put my VIN number into the recall website for Jeep, and they state on their website when I did that, there were four separate recalls for my vehicle, and one of those recalls was the possibility of the car shifting into neutral.

JB: And why won't the company just let you take your vehicle to a local mechanic?

JF: Currently for warranty work they allow third party vendors — they say they reserve the right for third party vendors to perform this work for warranty, but for safety recall that have been issued by Transport Canada, they require that you bring your vehicle to a Chrysler dealership and have the work completed by a Chrysler technician.

JB: And I understand you bought this Jeep because you have a new baby — is that right?

JF: Yes it is sir — I actually bought the Jeep in advance of the new baby. I've never owned a vehicle before in my life. This was the first car that I had ever purchased, and I purchased it for the sole purpose of being able to bring my family around, you know, eventually when the kid gets a little bit older to soccer games and whatnot.

JB: And have you been able to drive it at all?

JF: Not in the last six weeks — so just before my baby was born the car actually broke down — so since my baby was born I have not been able to drive the vehicle.

JB: Now you've gotten some pick up on social media and you're in the mainstream media as well, is there a resolution in the works for you with this?

JF: Currently at this point, I have been contacted by Chrysler. I've been speaking with a very nice customer service representative, who has been very pleasant through this entire experience. Her name is Jessica. And Jessica told me yesterday that the local auto body shop where I have my car is in touch with a Chrysler dealership that is down south, and they're currently working on something to get my issue fixed. Also part of my campaign was based on the fact that it's not just me, it's every other person in a remote location that is also affected by this. So it's all my friends, and all my family, and everyone I love is affected by this if they own a Fiat-Chrysler vehicle so they've assured me that the policy that they have currently on servicing safety recalls, is under analysis, and under review, to figure out how they can include remote locations.

JB: I'm sure you really touched to a point of tenderness for a lot of Northern residents — and not just as far as vehicles go in terms of a lot of big purchase items.

JF: Yeah, I certainly have. I've already been contacted by a few people here in Iqaluit asking me how to get their Chrysler vehicles serviced, so I've given them some advice on the necessary steps to take to at least initiate the process.

JB: And basically it boils down to make a lot of noise online?

JF: Well hopefully not anymore. I mean, since they have responded Chrysler has been very cooperative. They see my argument and they agree with me that that policy is certainly not in place at the moment, and they have promised me that they're looking into it, but I haven't seen any action yet.

JB: Well anyone who can get the customer service people off script — I've got to just salute them.

JF: Thank you very much. And it's funny because I complained to Chrysler that the first contact I had with them felt very verbatim and scripted. And when this lady from Chrysler Jessica phoned me, she assured me that she was not reading from a script, and we were able to speak like actual people, which I really appreciated as a consumer.

JB: Now if you ever find yourself needing to buy a vehicle number two would you consider buying another Fiat-Chrysler vehicle?

JF: If Fiat-Chrysler can find a positive resolution for the current problem — not just my issue — I mean the policy problem, the problem that they don't have a contingency in place to service remote locations, then absolutely I would. So depending on how Fiat-Chrysler handles the rest of this situation, absolutely if it's a positive resolution then yes, if it's not then absolutely not.

JB: Mr. Fawcett, good luck with your jeep.

JF: Thank you very much sir. You have a good day.

JB: You too. Thanks for joining us.

JF: All right.

CH: We reached John Fawcett Iqaluit.

[Music: Whimsical Band]

From Our Archives: Maurice Bluestein obit

CH: Not long now before you'll hear a lot of more chatter on the airwaves about that chatter inducing factor in the air outside — the windchill. The difference between the actual temperature outside and how cold it feels has never been an easy thing to put your trembling finger on. But weather forecasters are a lot better at measuring windchill than they used to be. And that is thanks in large part to the work of Maurice Bluestein, who along with Canadian scientist Randall Osczevski modernized how the windchill index is calculated. Maurice Bluestein died on August 28^th, he was 76. Back in 2001 when the U.S. and Canadian governments commissioned the two men to devise a new formula, As It Happens reached Mr. Bluestein in Indianapolis, where he was a professor of mechanical engineering at Indiana University. Here's part of his conversation with our former host Mary Lou Finlay.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Dr. Bluestein, what's the wind chill in Indianapolis today?

DOCTOR MAURICE BLUESTEIN: Well, today it's rather warm. We're at about 40 degrees air temperature, and the windchill is probably about 39.

MLF: Now can you have a windchill if it's above freezing?

MB: Oh yes, oh that's just the effect of the wind. And what it is telling you, is that your body is going to lose heat as if it were 39 degrees without wind.

MLF: How is it measured — how do you actually do it?

MB: Well, there's a complicated formula that was based on some research done in Antarctica many years ago. We now, are pretty certain that the original research was flawed.

MLF: What did they do?

MB: What did they do? Well, they used a can of water as an experiment to see how long it would take for the water to freeze under different conditions.

MLF: But you don't think that was a particularly good way of measuring?

MB: Well, there are a couple of flaws in it. One was they assume that the outside of the container was at freezing temperature, when it was just the water inside that would be at freezing. Plus their results —just looking at the results, it was published in a paper in 1945 shows that the data was widely scattered, and what they did was assume a relationship that pretty much went through the average of those data points. The main problem with the current application, now taking it from water to humans, is they assume the skin temperature of humans of about 90 degrees Fahrenheit 33 degrees Celsius. That was a major cause of the errors in the present chart as applied to humans. Because skin temperature is much lower than that. And another part of the problem today is the measurement of the wind. The wind has typically measured 10 meters above the ground.

MLF: Which is not where your face is?

MB: That's right. Your face is lower than that and the wind is less strong where you are relative to where it's measured.

MLF: So it may be a measurement, it just isn't a measurement of how fast your face will freeze probably on the way to work?

MB: Probably so.

MLF: So what do you think we should do about this?

MB: Well, we are currently revising the windchill chart based on some appropriate modern heat transfer data and some modeling that I've done, and also has been done by some of your people up at the weather service in Canada.

MLF: So you think we'll have a new measurement — a new standard?

MB: We're hoping to have something for the next weather season starting in the fall of 2001.

MLF: And will be used everywhere?

MB: Well, at least they would be used in Canada and the U.S..

CH: And it is. From our archives former As It Happens host Mary Lou Finlay speaking with Maurice Bluestein in April 2001. Maurice Bluestein died on August 28, he was 76.

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September 15, 2017 episode transcript

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