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The AIH Transcript for August 29, 2017

Hosts: Susan Bonner and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

SUSAN BONNER: Hello I'm Susan Bonner.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is as it happens [Music: Theme]

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

SB: Hope Floats. They call themselves the Cajun Navy. Tonight, one of the Louisiana volunteers tells us how he and his colleagues put the lessons of Katrina to work when they pulled a Houston woman from the flood.

JD: Into the breach. The torrent tears through a levee in a suburb south of Houston, prompting a local judge to ask residents to, “GET OUT NOW!”

SB: The hunger for gold. Russian skating star Yulia Lipnitskaya retires at the age of 19. Her mother says she's been struggling with anorexia. Our guest, a medalist herself, says the skater is not alone.

JD: The cat's bow. We hear from a Hamilton Tiger-Cats fan who joined the outcry that has forced the team to fire its latest hire: a coach with a history of mishandling sexual misconduct by college football players.

SB: Statue of limitations. Truth and Reconciliation commissioner Murray Sinclair says that tearing down monuments to Sir John A. McDonald won't accomplish as much as making new ones for Indigenous heroes.

JD: And… Brits in gravy. Lancashire, England plays host to one of the biggest events in global athletics: the 10th Annual World Wrestling Championships. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that suspects some participants were hitting the sauce.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: Harvey rescue, Sir John A. Macdonald, Ticats fan

Harvey rescue

Guest: Joshua Lincoln

The death toll in Texas is rising. As of this afternoon, at least 15 people have been killed by tropical storm Harvey and its torrential aftermath. Officials fear there will be more. Among those confirmed dead, a Houston police officer who drowned in floodwaters on his way to work. Houston Police Chief Art Acevedo explained what happened at a press conference earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

ART ACEVEDO: On Monday the 28^th, his chain of command was holding a regular roll call when they noticed that Sergeant Perez was not present. At that time, they started making attempts to reach him and could not get a hold of him when they couldn't get a hold of him, understanding that this man is a dedicated individual that would not just not show up to work and one of the things that we know over the years in these events and in something this historical is sometimes first responders don't show up. I'd like to say that our people have been showing up. The vast majority have not left since Saturday night. We contacted his wife and she advised us that she had not seen her husband since 4:00 AM on the 27th. We immediately began an extensive search of a potential path of travel. We utilized other investigative techniques to try to locate him. And Monday evening, we narrowed the search to Hardy Tollway and Beltway 8. We responded to the Hardy Tollway and Beltway 8, where we had a high sense of probability that was the last place that we would have been. We called for our dive team. We even used one of our…. What are we calling these people from Louisiana, God bless them… Our Cajun Navy. You know our American Cajun Navy helped us look for him so we couldn’t find him. And once our div4e team got there it was too treacherous to go under and look for him. So we made a decision to leave officers there waiting until the morning because as much as we wanted to recover him last night. We could not put more officers at risk for what we knew in our hearts was going to be a recovery mission.

JD: That was Houston Police Chief Art Acevedo at a news conference today. The body of police Sergeant Steve Perez was recovered this morning. The Cajun Navy that Chief Acevedo thanked is a volunteer rescue group that formed in Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina. Joshua Lincoln is a member of that group. He drove to Houston with two friends on Sunday night. He has been working ever since. We reached Mr. Lincoln in Humble, Texas.

SB: Joshua, I understand it's been an intense couple of days for you. Have you had any sleep at all?

JOSHUA LINCOLN: I have had three-and-a-half hours of sleep in the last 36 hours.

SB: When you first arrived in Houston and you were beginning to set up so that you could start rescuing people. What did you see?

JL: It was dark. We couldn't see much, but we could see once we got to where we were assigned, we could see that no matter what exit we were to get off of a raised tollway every single exit was under water. So no matter where we went, we would be launching right off those exit ramps. But we actually we were responding to a specific call for help. There was an elderly couple trapped on top of an SUV for eight hours. That was our first assignment was trying to get to that couple.

SB: So you proceed in your boat to try to get to the couple. Did you see anyone else out there?

JL: Yes. Right as we were launching the boat, there was an SUV heading towards us at a rapid pace and we were like that guy better slow down. So as soon as soon as he hit the floodwater, the current got a hold of the car. He started taking his vehicle at about 15-miles-an-hour, heading right towards us.

SB: What did you do?

JL: His window was down and he was screaming help me, help me, help me. So the current took him towards us, we were able to get to him and pull him to the left side to where he can get up to some ground and get some traction.

SB: And that's as you're just starting out. That's how it all began?

JL: Yes. We thought we couldn't believe it. You know we couldn't believe it. And we kind of sat there, the guy was in shock, and we were like you know we’ve never seen this before. We don’t know how to deal with it. So we got him in touch with family and then we got in the water and headed out.

SB: And as you headed out into the water, what was your next encounter?

JL: It was very difficult to get back. We were still headed to that couple that were stranded. So it took us almost two hours to get back to where we finally decided, as the sun was coming up, to start checking for medical emergencies only. We got to a point where we could not get past and get to the SUV. So we turned around and the current was massive. So with everything that our boat had we were you know making progress barely. So about 100-yards up, we spotted some debris coming in with the current and it was just ripping. And I spotted what I thought was a black trash bag full of trash just floating, you know like half of it up above the water. And as we got closer, we realized that it was a body. So in my head I thought it was just a dead body and that was going to be the first you know that we would see. But as we came up or the current took her to us, the two other guys in our boat jumped off in order to get to her before the current took her past us.

SB: But they thought they were jumping off to retrieve a body?

JL: Yes. Well, they didn't know. She was face down in the water. All you could see was her black shirt had air in it and that's what was sticking up above the water.

SB: Then what happened?

JL: Well, they got her to higher ground right next to a fence and were able to start compressions and get her to a slow breath. We thought she wasn't coming back. But we brought her back, we sat with her for a good while and you know just got her coherent.

SB: Joshua, what was it like the moment that you heard that breath and knew that you had to use your words brought her back?

JL: It's unbelievable. You can't describe it. It's very you know instantly emotional and you know I've seen things in Hurricane Katrina and other events. But every time you see something like that it just hits you so hard.

SB: How many people do you figure that you have picked up — that you've helped — since you arrived in Houston?

JL: We launched at 4:00 a.m. We probably made 30 to 40 trips with four to five people in each boat: around 200.

SB: You’ve rescued 200 people?

JL: Yes. We were the first boat in the water in that area.

SB: Are you planning to get out there again today?

JL: I cannot. I'm doing what I do best: I'm coordinating getting all kinds of help into the areas that need it most.

SB: So tell me what you're doing exactly? I understand you've hurt yourself, which is why you're not back out on the water. But what is it that you're doing to coordinate things?

JL: Right now, we've got people that are messaging in or contacting in from north of Houston, west, east as far as Mobile, Alabama with high trucks, boats and supplies. It's my element. So I'm just routing and doing everything I can and using all the resources that come in to the fullest capacity. But I've been involved in a lot of emergency situations. So I'm very familiar with what's needed to set up a command center, communications and making sure that things stay organized. So I'm just doing that and focus on Northeast Houston.

SB: The chief of police in Houston said earlier today that he was actually quite worried the death toll was going to rise, that more bodies were going to be found. You were able to revive Ms. Elis, but I'm wondering how you and your fellow rescuers prepare emotionally for finding a body you can't revive?

JL: You can't. You can't prepare for it. You know you can only hope that you don't experience it. But if you do, it it's going to be life changing.

SB: You've already experienced some of that.

JL: I have yes.

SB: And yet, you come back and do it again.

JL: Without a doubt because you know what? You never know when you're going to roll up on one that can be brought back.

SB: Joshua, good luck. All the best to you and the people working with you. Thanks for the time.

JL: Thank you.

JD: Joshua Lincoln is a member of the volunteer rescue group, the Cajun Navy, out of Louisiana. We reached him in Humble, Texas. And coming up later on in the program, we will speak to a judge from Brazoria County, a Houston suburb where a levee breached. He sent to local residents a simple message today. It read “get out now.”

[Music: Orchestral]

Sir John A: Sinclair

Guest: Murray Sinclair

JD: For days now, people across Canada have been speaking about Sir John A. MacDonald. Should the name of Canada's first prime minister be removed from schools in Ontario — and perhaps elsewhere — because of the role he played in suppressing Indigenous peoples? Senator Murray Sinclair, who led the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, is now weighing in. And he's trying to change the subject. We reached Senator Sinclair in Winnipeg.

SB: Senator Sinclair, what bothers you about this debate over Sir John A. McDonald?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, it's the fact that we're spending so much energy talking about a negative effort. And as the person who spent so many years studying and discussing the importance of reconciliation, I'm concerned about the fact that we're concentrating our efforts on doing something negative. But it doesn’t really need to be; we could turn this into a positive.

SB: You talk about it as a negative event. The issue, of course, came to a head last week, when the teachers’ union in Ontario passed that controversial motion, which called for Sir John A.’s name to be removed from the schools. And which referred to him as an architect of genocide against Indigenous people. Can I ask you what you think about that characterization?

MS: There's a lot of merit to it. I don't think we can get past that. Now, keep in mind that genocide was actually not a crime at the time that he was prime minister. And it wasn't a crime when Hitler was doing what he was doing in Europe during the Second World War. But that doesn't mean that neither of them did things that were terribly wrong. People talked about the fact that he didn't do anything different than what was acceptable in society. A lot of what he did was not acceptable to society and there were a lot of people who opposed him. But because MacDonald was the prime minister, he got his way. But the reality is that whether or not we now like it or are prepared to condone it…

SB: Or put his name on schools.

MS: And allow it to continue to be commemorated. The reality is that's not what reconciliation is all about. Reconciliation is really about trying to find a balance and telling the history of this country. And the history of this country is that he was the person who did great wrong. He was also a person who did some things and those things that were necessary for this country to be established as it is today. And whether we like it or not, that's part of Canadian reality and there are many Canadians who want to commemorate that. But there are a lot of Indigenous people who have made a positive contribution to this country, to their people and to the relationship between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people who have largely been ignored by history and who deserve to be honored and commemorated just as much. And we should be talking about what to do about them.

SB: Are there are divisions within the Indigenous community about what reconciliation really means? Because the National Chief Perry Bellegarde has said he supports the idea of removing Sir John A.’s name from the schools.

MS: There are divisions within society. There are divisions within the non-Indigenous community as well. So I'm not surprised by that. I think that people are still trying to come to terms with their own sense of what reconciliation means and what it should mean. There are people who get very hung up on the issue of forgiveness for example and think that reconciliation requires forgiveness and it doesn't at all. They think that reconciliation requires surrender. And there are many non-Indigenous people who talk about reconciliation being the responsibility for Indigenous people that they're the ones who get over it. And that's not what reconciliation is. Reconciliation is about establishing a relationship of mutual respect, ensuring that we do not tolerate anymore the fact that one society or one element of society believes that it is superior to another element of society.

SB: Again, I go back to your comments about how this is a negative debate and how this debate is actually counterproductive to reconciliation. Is there a productive side to it because people are engaging in this debate and having the conversation?

MS: There is an equally controversial perhaps, but more positive tack that could be taken and that is to identify those Indigenous individuals in Canadian society who have contributed much to this country as MacDonald, if not more.

SB: Give us a couple of examples of who you would like to see commemorated.

MS: One of the first ones of course is one in Manitoba with the Selkirk treaty. When Lord Selkirk came to what is now The Forks area in the southern part of Manitoba to establish a settlement, he negotiated his presence and the ability to occupy land with Chief Peguis. Chief Peguis not only protected the people, but agreed to give them land upon which they could establish their villages. And also agreed to help them to survive and took care of them. He’s one name; there are others historical and present who we should also be recognizing. In the west, Poundmaker and Big Bear, who were instrumental in keeping Indigenous people from joining the war against Canada during the Saskatchewan Rebellion.

SB: How would you like to see these men recognized or honored? More statues, more school namings? How would you like to see it done?

MS: Exactly. I think they should be on our currency. I think they should be the walls of public institutions just like the portraits of speakers of the House and members of parliament and prime ministers are hanging in our public buildings as well. We shouldn't be hiding them away in small buildings and in dark places.

SB: And they seem to be alongside some of these names who are controversial now like Sir John A.?

MS: In order to bring balance to the story yes. And we should also be telling the full and proper story of controversial figures like Sir John A., just as we tell stories of the history of this country and need to do that.

SB: Where do you think we are on that effort? On trying to bring balance…

MS: We're stumbling. We’re stumbling at the starting line of reconciliation. There's no question on that. We haven't even started the race yet. We have a long way to go. I told people when we finished the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, getting to the truth was hard, but getting to reconciliation is going to be even harder. And this is an example of that.

SB: Well, it was good to talk to you about this issue. Thanks very much for your time.

MS: It was an honor to talk with you. Thank you very much.

SB: Bye bye

MS: bye.

JD: Murray Sinclair is an independent senator from Manitoba. He was the chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. We reached him in Winnipeg.

[Music: Folk]

Ticats fan

Guest: Michelle Donaldson

JD: A, quote, “large and serious mistake.” That is how the owner of the Hamilton Tiger-Cats characterized the decision to hire Art Briles as the CFL team's assistant head coach. Mr. Briles was fired as a coach at Baylor University in Texas in 2015, after an investigation concluded that the football program at that school had mishandled allegations of sexual assault, including a gang rape. After backlash from fans, it was announced that Mr. Briles would, in fact, not be joining the Ticats. Today, head coach June Jones was asked about Mr. Briles’s hiring in a scrum with reporters. Here's part of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

JUNE JONES: Art and I've been friends for 40 years. And just you know thinking it all through right to today this is really an emotional thing for me. A very personal thing for me. And. You know I've had a history of helping people and that's what I'm about. To be quite honest right now, I want to really have no comment. I think the administration's made their stance known. The commissioner has made his stance known. And, like I said, it was a very emotional thing for me last evening. And I don't I don't really care to discuss a whole lot about anything about it right now. If you guys want to talk to me about football that's fine. I’m not saying that I won't, catch me every day. I don't want to break down right here in front of you. And it's just that's how I am.

JD: Hamilton Tiger-Cats head coach June Jones speaking to reporters today about Art Briles, who was first hired, then hired by the Ticats. Michelle Donaldson is a lifelong Tiger-Cats fan. We reached her in Ottawa.

SB: Michelle, you heard the Tiger-Cats head coach June Jones talking about how emotional he actually is about the decision to reverse the hiring of his friend, Art Briles. How do you respond to what you just heard.

MICHELLE: DONALDSON: I think it goes to show how much of a boys club football is now. And you know always has been and probably will be. He doesn't seem to understand or appreciate the reasons why it was revoked. You know and why the outrage is there. He's just disappointed he doesn't get to work with his friend.

SB: Well, the cat's owner, Bob Young, did say the decision to hire Mr. Briles was a mistake. He apologized to fans. Do you accept the apology?

MD: I think it's a step in the right direction, but I think they need to acknowledge why it was the wrong decision. And you know acknowledge that their oversight and that aspect towards women’s well-being and you know their female fans. I'm very happy that they decided not to not to proceed with the hiring, but I feel like they're sidestepping the main issue as to why it was that the wrong decision.

SB: Well, in fact, in the piece you wrote for the Hamilton Spectator titled “I'm A Female Tiger-Cats Fan And I'm Hurt.” You outlined some of the reasons why you're hurt. Can you can you tell us why this decision to hire Art Briles in the first place hurt you?

MD: I think a lot of disappointment in seeing the true colors of the organization that they put more value on winning a football game than you know female safety and well-being. And the fact that they thought it was OK to hire someone who was involved in that terrible situation. It just goes to speak to what their values are and what their main focus is. And that they say a lot that they focus on community and that you know that's a mainstay of their organization, but they've proven that it's not as if you're willing to look aside and to turn a blind eye to what happened at that university. You know it says so much about their values and about the way that the organization is being run and the culture that's there right now.

SB: I understand that it's a tradition for you personally to go cheer on the Ticats, especially on the Labor Day game. Do you have tickets this year?

MD: I do have tickets. Yeah, it’s a big family event. You know my dad comes, my sisters come in, my nephews go. We get family friends, we all go together as a group. We've been going for years and it's a nice tradition it's a nice way to end the summer and I look forward to it every year.

SB: You going on Monday?

MD: I haven't decided. I have my ticket. I don't know? I don't know if I can support the team right now? It's hard to differentiate the players from the administration, but it's hard to support the administration right now with their choices and the way that they've been handling it.

SB: Have you thought about what it would feel like to be there in the stadium as a fan watching your team play?

MD: I have. And it does not make me feel good. It doesn't make me feel excited. I've always loved going to watch them play. I spent many, many nights, many days you know watching them play at Ivor Wynne, Tim Horton’s Field. You know when they were playing out in Guelph, we made the trip out there. I've always enjoyed it and I don't know if I do end up going on Monday if it'll even be fun, or if it'll just be a dark cloud that's just over top of the whole stadium and you know kind of on the back of people's mind.

SB: What can the team do to win back your affection and respect?

MD: It's the respect that I think of that is the toughest one. I'd love to see them make a stand and make a statement about the real reason behind why it was such a bad decision to hire him. And you know have them acknowledge that they don't… I'm sure that they would all say that they don't support you know sexual violence against women. But you know like actions speak louder than words.

SB: Well, they rescinded the offer and the team owner did apologize. Give me some specifics about what you need beyond that?

MD: I think for this the CFL has a policy in place right now that you know they are pretty hard on players that have domestic violence priors or sexual violence issues where you know they're not really welcome to come play here. Obviously, that doesn't stand with coaches since the CFL knew about the hiring and still allowed it to happen. I'd really love to see the CFL and the Ticats come out with some actions you know supporting their female fans and saying you know this was a mistake and we acknowledge why it was a mistake. Not just that it was a poor decision.

SB: In the meantime, are you going to keep your Ticats jersey in the closet for a while?

MD: Yes. Yes, I have quite a lot of merchandise. Quite a lot of gear and it doesn't feel right to be wearing you know black and gold.

SB: Michelle, thank you for telling us about this.

MD: Thank you so much for your time.

SB: Goodbye.

MD: Bye.

JD: Michelle Donaldson is a life-long fan of the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. We reached her in Ottawa.

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Part 2: Harvey: Levee breach, figure skater retires

Harvey: Levee breach

Guest: Matt Sebesta

JD: The message on Twitter could not have been more blunt, nor clearer. It read, “GET OUT NOW.” The all-caps order was sent earlier today to residents of Brazoria County, a suburb south of Houston. With the rain still pummeling the community, two local rivers had overflowed their banks and then breached the levee. Brazoria County judge Matt Sebesta was the one who sent out that message. We reached the judge in Angleton, Texas.

SB: Judge Sebesta, it is just so difficult to fathom how much actual water there is in your county right now. Can you describe the scene for us?

MATT SEBESTA: Yes ma'am. Over the last three or four days since Hurricane Harvey hit the Gulf Coast, and slightly before, we started receiving just large amounts of rain. We've had anywhere from a foot—and-a-half to upwards of three-feet of water in various parts of the county over the last several days. And so we've had large amounts of flooding. Roads, homes, streets bayous are all full of water. We also have two major rivers on the west end of the county that not all of the water that has fallen here, but water that has fallen north of us is now flowing towards us.

SB: And now to learn that the levee in your county — the levee at Columbia Lakes — has breached. What are the implications of that?

MS: We had a breach at the Columbia Lakes levee. It is now under control. It was from the local rain in a creek that runs nearby. There was water that was coming through the levee. We've had local volunteers and resources out there that have fortified the levee in that location. It is now under control. But the river runs very close to there. It is still on the rise and it will be a threat to that area as the water continues to come down the river.

SB: This morning you issued a blunt evacuation order telling residents, “GET OUT NOW.” How are people supposed to respond when as you describe it most of the roads are flooded? What are people to do? where can they go?

MS: Well, Susan, we're just reminding people in that area and all low-lying areas in the St. Bernard river basin they need to seek higher ground. Roads in that area are open at this time to get to Angleton. Angleton is protected by a levee that will protect it from the river. And so we're asking people to please evacuate those low-lying areas before they're trapped by river waters.

SB: Is it possible that some people in the area are trapped?

MS: There are places along the river where we're seeing the river waters are out of their banks. They continue to rise and there are possibilities of people being trapped. We have folks out doing water rescues at this time. And over the last several days, there have been hundreds of water rescues that have occurred.

SB: The scene you describe — the images that that that you're conveying to us — how much fear is there in the community right now?

MS: There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of uneasiness. We went through a river floods last summer and it was catastrophic. We had over 1,000 homes receive water in them. And all of those homes, unless have been raised up and most of them have not been. Most of the homes that received water last year will receive water this year. As well as potential for additional homes plus the communities of the north and east of our county that are not threatened by the rivers. But we had numerous homes that were flooded within the last two days.

SB: You are a prominent public official in your county. You're describing to me what you want from people. What kind of message do you want to send to them to reassure them?

MS: Get out now. The best water rescue is one that you don't have to make. People have a choice. They can get out of harm's way. We get out of harm's way. They keep themselves safe. They keep our first responders safe from not having to go in and get them. We just want people to watch out for themselves. We've not yet had a single loss of life, nor do I have one.

SB: Once the waters recede and the rain stops falling, what will be left of Brazoria County? How much damage are you expecting to see?

MS: There will be a lot of damage. There's no doubt about that. There will be many homes that are flooded. There will be many roads, bridges that are damaged. And we will recover. We always do.

SB: When you look around at the damage that you can already see with the water still there. Do you think you could have done anything differently? Are there things that you didn't anticipate that you wish you had?

MS: Well, we've been putting out voluntary evacuations for three days now. I don't think we could have anticipated 24-25 inches of rain in one night. You just cannot anticipate that, especially as wide-ranging our friends to the north of us in Houston have received just large as you know several feet of rainfall as well. We’re a large number of people here on the Gulf Coast. There are millions of people stretching from Beaumont, all the way down to the Corpus area that that took the brunt of hurricane Harvey. There are millions of people. I know the loss of life is climbing. But with the amount of rain and storm that we've had, it has been kept to a minimum.

SB: Judge Sebesta, what have you learned from what you've been through so far?

MS: You don't control Mother Nature. You cannot control Mother Nature. What we can control is try to do the planning, message our citizens to let them know the information that they need to help prepare them for the situation at hand.

SB: Well Judge, it's been good to talk to you. Thank you for making time for us.

MS: You're welcome, Susan. Thank you.

JD: Matt Sebesta is a judge in Brazoria County, a suburb south of Houston. We reached him earlier today in Angleton, Texas.

[Music: Inide folk]

From Our Archives: Michael Bell obit

JD: One of Canada's most influential diplomats has died. Michael Bell served as ambassador to Egypt, Israel and Jordan during his decades-long career. But a former colleague told the Globe and Mail that Mr. Bell did not just serve as Canada's envoy to a single country, no matter its importance. Former Ambassador Mike Malloy said, quote, “Michael became an ambassador for the whole Middle East.” Michael Bell died last week of liver cancer. He was 73-years-old. In 2007, Mr. Bell was interviewed on this program. After retiring as chairman of the international reconstruction fund for Iraq, he spoke about the future of that country and the rise of extremism in the region. Here's a clip, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL BELL: You've got ethnic cleansing in Kirkuk. What do you do to stop it? Well, there's nothing we can do to stop it. Unless we try to sit there with a million troops on the ground and that will just breed more and more opposition. So I'm afraid that in a way there will be some awfully, ugly incidents over the next few years that take place in Iraq until things settled down. I think in terms of the impact on the west, countries like Canada and what have you. The Anglo-American intervention has exacerbated tensions, created a breeding ground for Islamic radicalism and I think what we're going to feel now we're already feeling it and will feel more so. The radicalization of certain groups in the Middle East, who do engage in terror, who do believe in an Islamic extremist Islamic society and that worries me greatly. We now have something that cannot be fixed. It's tough to say, you know? And particularly when you've been at this for two years, trying to make it happen, trying to see things draw together and instead you see infighting and bureaucratic lethargy. U.N. agencies competing against each other for money to do more projects, it is very discouraging.

JD: From our archives, Canadian diplomat Michael Bell in conversation with As It Happens guest host Mark Kelly in 2007. Mr. Bell died last week. He was 73-years-old.

[Music: Sad guitar]

Figure skater retires

Guest: Jenny Kirk

JD: Figure skater Yulia Lipnitskaya has retired at the age of 19. Ms. Lipnitskaya has been a darling of the figure skating world. She won gold with the Russians in the team event at the 2014 Olympics in Sochi when she was 15-years-old, making her the youngest skating champion in nearly 80 years. Yesterday, Ms. Lipnitskaya’s mother announced that her daughter would be retiring from the sport, after undergoing three months of treatment for anorexia. Jenny Kirk is an American figure skating coach who struggled with eating disorders when she was an athlete herself. We reached Ms. Kirk in Boston.

SB: Ms. Kirk, what was it like to hear that Yulia has retired from figure skating?

JENNY KIRK: It was pretty shocking. She was the star in many ways at the Sochi Games in 2014. She was so young and the last few years, it seems like she wasn't living up to the results that she achieved in 2014. And it seemed like there was something going on. Still, it's always shocking and some retires during an Olympic year, particularly somebody who won a gold medal in the team event four years ago. But I think on the other hand, it was something that was too big of a shock because of some of the rumblings that were going on behind the scenes.

SB: You talk about rumblings and the suspicion that something was going on. Was it well known that Yulia was struggling with anorexia?

JK: I don't think it was well known, but we could tell that there was something upsetting her. She didn't seem happy often during her performances and in the kiss and cry. And this skating world is a small community, so when someone is struggling with something you hear rumors. And, unfortunately, the rumor of an eating disorder is something that's common. But I don't think anyone perhaps knew how serious it was.

SB: How common are eating disorders among figure skaters, from what you know?

JK: Unfortunately, incredibly common. Just in my history in being with this sport, there was two years where I toured with Champions on Ice here in the United States. It’s a tour that’s no longer active, but it was a tour that had the top skaters both here in the U.S. and also internationally. And I would say about 80 per cent of the skaters on tour had some sort of disordered eating.

SB: Why is this such a pervasive problem?

JK: You know, I thought a lot about it. I think, obviously, the culture of skating is one which promotes a certain aesthetic. You want to look a certain way on the ice. The difficult technical requirements that the skaters are trying to achieve, you have to throw your entire body in the air and rotate as quickly as possible. So, obviously, just in terms of pure physics, the smaller you are, the faster you're going to rotate. But I think it goes back just generations of generations where it's something that's accepted. And a lot of the skaters become coaches and it's something that they grew up with and then they, without knowing it, make comments or place it upon their skaters to look a certain way. And nobody's really come out and talked about it.

SB: You have been quite vocal though talking about your own experiences with an eating disorder. Can you explain how it started for you?

JK: Yes. I was always very thin. It wasn't a situation where somebody told me to lose weight, but, obviously, the message that I had been given from a young age. One of my coaches would have us all line up and weigh us in front of everybody, in the middle of the skating lobby and write down every week in a notebook. So I was given the message that the number is important. But I wasn't achieving the results on the ice that I thought I should. And my weight was something that I felt like I could control and it started out really in a benign way, where I wanted to work out more, watch what I eat, be a little bit more healthy and suddenly, it became the one thing that I felt I could control.

SB: But isn't that interesting that it was a control issue for you and I imagine though that as an athlete, you were losing the ability to control your athletic moves because you were diminishing your muscle strength. How did you cope with that?

JK: Well, I think the most insidious part of eating disorders or anybody who's gone on an extreme diet. Is that at first, you receive a lot of compliments. So in the first season when I was struggling, I had my best season to date. I medaled at U.S. nationals, I was on the world team, I medaled internationally and so it's something where you believe that what you're doing is OK. So towards the end, obviously, the results weren't as great as they were that first season. I blamed myself. I thought if I could just be skinnier, I'd be able to get the results back.

SB: What message would you have for people watching what's going on now with Yulia and wondering how the sport needs to change?

JK: I think the biggest thing is people need to talk about what's going on. And skaters need to feel like they can talk about any behaviors that they're starting to engage in that may be veering down the road of disordered eating. I think when I look at the Yulia’s situation as an outsider and also somebody who struggled with an eating disorder, it's one in which had things been addressed immediately it wouldn't have gotten probably to this point. I know for myself, if somebody had pulled me aside right away and said weighing yourself multiple times a day, or only eating this, or losing this amount of weight, this isn't normal.

SB: How easy was it for you to hide your disorder from others?

JK: Oh, incredibly easy. It was something where I think I was putting cries out for help many times. I was in the middle of session, bingeing and purging fellow skaters that I was training with. My coaches at the time knew what was going on…

SB: Your coaches knew? The other skaters and your coaches knew what was going on?

JK: Yes.

SB: And nobody tried to stop it?

JK: No, I was actually told to wait until after the Olympic season to get treatment.

SB: And what do you think of that now, as you look back on that?

JK: It makes me sad and it makes me feel a lot of pride for someone like Yulia, who was able to get treatment because I know how hard it is. When this is your life dream in an Olympic season and I'm sure for her to win another Olympic medal. It makes me sad, but also proud of her for receiving treatment and doing really what is most important in life, which is your health. It has to come first.

SB: What do you think about your sport? Are you proud of it?

JK: I think that to blame skating probably wouldn't be fair, but definitely something needs to change within the culture. It's a wonderful sport. I'm a skating coach now myself. I don't know any coaches who would promote an eating disorder, but I definitely think that the dialogue within the sport needs to change. And this is something that's happening at local rinks, nationally, internationally and this needs to be discussed.

SB: Jenny, thanks for talking to us about it.

SB: Thank you so much.

JD: Jenny Kirk is a figure skating coach and a former U.S. medalist. We reached her in Boston. And we do have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Orchestral]

From Our Archives: Gravy wrestling

JD: If you or someone you love is trying to kick a poutine habit, maybe suggest Googling gravy wrestling. and should you do that, you will see photographs of Tronald Dump, the Oxo Fox and the Potato Masher. Just some of the wrestlers who faced off at yesterday's 10th Annual World Gravy Wrestling Championships in Lancashire, England. Hundreds of people gathered at the charity fundraiser to watch the spectacle and to cheer on contestants as they battled it out in pools of the dark brown fat sauce. Points were awarded for costumes, comedic effect and yes, yes wrestling prowess. Between rounds, the wrestlers were sprayed down by the local fire department. Now, of course, As It Happens has covered this greasy game before. In January of 2010, Carol spoke with Joel Hicks. At the time, Mr. Hicks, aka Gandalf the Gravy, was the champ. Here's part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

JOEL HICKS: We went through in the last championship around 2,000 gallons of gravy.

CAROL OFF: Oh dear! And how much... I mean actually how deep into gravy are you when you're wrestling?

JH: about three-inches deep. We use a swimming pool In gravy, basically. It's about two-metres wide, so it makes quite a good ring.

CO: Having just come through Christmas, I think I've seen all the gravy I could possibly want to see. But how difficult is it to wrestle in gravy?

JH: It is extremely, extremely difficult. It's one of the things way doesn't matter if you're six-foot-five or whether you're five-foot-two or whether you're seven-stone seventeen-stone. It is just a complete melee of sliding around, slipping, falling over, lots of splashing gravy in your eyes and hair. I mean when I've wrestled in gravy, I'm washing it out of my ears for about another two weeks. It’s just absolutely awful.

CO: So how do you get to be a champion?

JH: There's a competition that's run in the north of England, whereby they put on the World Gravy Wrestling Championships. This year, around 25 to 30 men all competed, wrestling off against one another. I was fortunate enough to be crowned World Gravy Wrestling Champion. It's a growing sport with a small following, I think.

JD: That's is former world Gravy Wrestling Champion Joel Hicks — Ghandalf the Gravy — speaking with Carol in 2010. And a quick note there if you were sopping up every moment of that interview: We have some good news for you. Carol Off is going to be back hosting this show on Labour Day.

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August 29, 2017 episode transcript

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