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The Current Transcript for August 18, 2017

Host: Megan Williams

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

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[Sounds: Chatter and screams]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Chaos on the streets of Barcelona yesterday as terrified bystanders fled from the path of a van turned into a weapon. The usually vibrant and sunny city is in mourning today. ISIS has claimed responsibility for the senseless killings. We start in Barcelona today for the latest updates. Then as the race riots erupted in Charlottesville, Virginia, last weekend, it wasn't just opponents of the confederate statues who were the targets of hate, it was also the city's Jewish community. Rabbi Tom Gutherz said one of the South's oldest synagogues came face to face with white supremacists that day.

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TOM GUTHERZ: It is really something else when that hate rally emerges in front of you, when you realize that people came from so far away, from all over really, to express that hatred.

MW: More on that in about half an hour from now. I'm Megan Williams and this is the summer edition of The Current.

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'Spain is a target': Terrorism expert not surprised Barcelona was attacked

Guests: Margaret Evans, Loretta Napoleoni, Amy Howell

MW: It's one of the most beautiful and busy streets for tourists and locals alike in all of Europe. Las Ramblas in Barcelona, Spain, a pedestrian thoroughfare filled with cafes and street performers, a place to amble gather with friends, share some tappas. And for anyone who's ever strolled down at the thought of Las Ramblas as the scene of a terror attack sends shivers. Brendan Sissing was on vacation in Spain from the United Kingdom. He was travelling in a taxi when he saw with his own eyes what was causing all the chaos yesterday in the heart of Barcelona. He spoke with Rasha, today, about the van on the attack and the carnage it left in its wake.

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I jumped out of the taxi and to my left, about 20 meters in front of me, the van was still going probably about a hundred, I do not know. It looked like 80, a 100 kilometers an hour, really, really fast. Stopped, and slowed down, but then accelerated again. And it [unintelligible] that must have been, I don’t know, 10-15 people get knocked on by the van.

MW: We now know that at least 14 people were left dead by the driver of that van and more than 100 injured. An 18 year old man, called Moussa Oukabir, is being sought by police. For the latest from Barcelona, I'm joined by CBC's Margaret Evans in Barcelona. Hello.

MARGARET EVANS: Hi Megan.

MW: Margaret, I understand you're in a hospital. What are you seeing there?

MARGARET EVANS: Well. people are coming down to donate blood basically. So, there's a big line up, mainly young people. I think at times like this as you know people feel quite helpless. And it's one thing that they feel that they can do to try to help the huge number of injured in this attack.

MW: Now what can you tell us about the manhunt for Moussa Oukabir?

MARGARET EVANS: Well you know things keep changing. We understand it is still under way some confusion about whether or not he was actually driving the van or not. There have been up to this point four arrests, including the brother who says that his younger brother stole his passport or his identity documents and insists he wasn't a part of the attack. So, that's continuing now. And we are also hearing, of course, that five suspects were shot dead in that second attack in Cambril further down the coast from Barcelona.

MW: Police now say that there were other bigger attacks that might have been planned. What do you know about that?

MARGARET EVANS: That's right. The head of the police here, in a press conference earlier, said that they are very sure that larger attacks are being planned. They are linking the attacks yesterday to an explosion which took place in a small town, south of Barcelona, earlier in the week on Wednesday, saying that in that house there were explosives and that there was a huge explosion and that they believe that what was happening was that a long term plan was under way they're looking at a network for much bigger attacks using explosives. They say they lost the device in the explosion but they think that that's why these more rudimentary methods were adopted than for the attack that cars used.

MW: Right. The decision to use a car instead. How much do we know so far about the victims of yesterday's attack?

MARGARET EVANS: Well we know that there were a huge number of foreign nationals injured in the attacks. I think it's the number the last number that I had heard was something like 17 in critical condition. The Catalonian police have said that authorities have confirmed that there is a Canadian amongst the injured, although we're not having any confirmation from Ottawa on that front. But again as I said that started this chat we're at the hospital and people are coming out to try to support to support the injured as much as they can and that giving blood is is one way they can do it.

MW: Margaret, you know as you say, you're seeing the support for the people in the hospital and we've already seen the incredible show of solidarity in the streets of Barcelona. What's the mood like today?

MARGARET EVANS: It's it's quite strange. I mean it's the city is still full of course of people visitors mainly, because the people who live in Barcelona tend to go away in the summer. But the streets are full but quiet if you like. And on the Rambas, where the main attack took place, there are little scenes of people lighting candles all along that strip. There was a festival that was under way - supposed to be under this this weekend which has been canceled. We're in a period of three days of mourning. And there was a minute of silence earlier today. So subdued, but also defiance as we've seen in other European capitals in these kinds of attacks.

MW: Yes. I was going to say, I mean, you've covered other attacks in other European capitals. Where people often say certainly in Paris and Brussels, that they had a foreboding sense that in some ways they suspected this sort of thing was coming. There in Barcelona, what are people saying about that? Did they have a sense that an attack might come?

MARGARET EVANS: Yes. The police in fact say that they you know it was inevitable. Barcelona has had a history in the past of being kind of a way station, if you like, for recruiters trying to radicalize people to then ferry them onto to fight in places like Syria. So the police have been aware of networks and planning may have a different approach than some of the other police forces in European cities. You know the mood here, in the aftermath, is very different from say Brussels or Paris. There isn't a sense of kind of panic or you don't get the sense of where man has gone on that kind of thing. It's much calmer they have put their money they say in an intelligence but they also say that there's only so much that they can do to guard against the kinds of attacks that we saw yesterday.

MW: Right. Okay, thanks very much for the update Margaret.

MARGARET EVANS: You're welcome. I've been speaking with CBC's Margaret Evans who is in Barcelona. Amy Howell is from Dallas, Texas, and is in Barcelona on vacation. She was on Las Ramblas yesterday when the attack took place. We've reached her in Barcelona this morning. Hello.

AMY HOWELL: Hi.

MW: First of all so glad you're safe, Amy.

AMY HOWELL: Thank you very much.

MW: Can you tell me where you were in the moments leading up to the attack?

AMY HOWELL: Sure. My friend and I were doing the normal tourist thing. We were walking around and just looking at some shops, down the Los Ramblas, and all of a sudden my glasses broke and they fell off my head. So, I said: “oh gosh we've got to stop in a store because I got to have glasses”. So, we walked in the store and we've been there just maybe a minute or two, and I'm at the front of the store and all of a sudden I just heard this loud noise and then scream. And so I looked outside and I just saw just really just a wave of people running as fast as they could with looks of just complete terror on their face. And so I knew something was horrible. So I started yelling for my friend, who was in the back of the store, and I didn't know what to tell her. So, I just kept yelling: “Valerie! Valerie!” and she was like: “What?” I didn't know what to tell her because I didn't know what was going on, either. We couldn't even… We knew everybody was running a certain direction, but I thought like we were safer in the store. So, along with some of the store employees, we all started yelling to shut the gates because someone outside was saying: “Terror attack”.

MW: Hmm.

AMY HOWELL: And so we shut the metal gates for the store and then we turned off the lights. The store employees turned off the lights, the music and so it was completely dark and we all went to the back dressing rooms. It just was quiet, eerie quiet.

MW: How close were you to where the van actually went by?

AMY HOWELL: So, we didn't know, at the time obviously, until you know, three hours later when we got out. The police came and escorted us out to a safer place. But we were right there. I mean we were probably, if I had to guess, 30 yards.

MW: Wow. So you say you went to the back of the store and what happened then?

AMY HOWELL: There were, you know, some people were laughing. Kids were crying. People were just handling it different ways. One lady almost had - I don't know if it was a stroke or a heart attack, but we couldn't, she was lifeless on the floor. And they had to do CPR but we couldn't get an ambulance or anything in. So, we felt kind of helpless there. She ended up being OK. But you know that was scary. And more than anything, we just didn't know what was going on, because it hadn't hit the news and we could hear what sounded like gunshots. I don't know what that was because I haven't heard anything but we definitely heard… I definitely heard gunshots. And then when people started yelling “terror attack”, we just barricaded ourselves in the dressing room.

MW: And how many other people were with you in the store?

AMY HOWELL: Maybe 50. 30 - 50.

MW: So, it was crowded, I guess.

AMY HOWELL: It was crowded, yes.

MW: And what was going through your mind, and what were people talking about?

AMY HOWELL: They were, you know, most people were calling their families. That's what I did. That's what my friend did. That's the first thing we did. And just trying to get information because we didn't know, I mean are they going door to door shooting people? Is there a bomb someplace? Like what is going on? We had no idea. No interpretation, other than terror attack.

MW: When you called your family, what did you say to them?

AMY HOWELL: Primarily, I got a hold of my mother. She answered. And I just said “let my kids know that I love them more than anything in this world and I have no idea what's happening. I'm fine now but just let them know that their mom was awesome and she loved them more than anything”. And my mom just you know she was together and said “I will. We love you”. And she started praying.

MW: So, can you tell me what the mood is like today in Barcelona?

AMY HOWELL: This morning, there were not a lot of people out. I think, like were staying at the hotel. We hadn't really planned on staying here all day. We'll get out later. But I think a lot of people are kind of staying in. I heard from Taxi driver this morning that a lot of people left the city, just to get out.

MW: Are you going to stay or do you think you'll head home soon?

AMY HOWELL: Well, I was planning - my flight is scheduled to go back on Saturday, tomorrow. So, I'm just keeping my same flight but I did not make any other arrangements to go home earlier.

MW: Okay, thanks so much for talking with us, Amy.

AMY HOWELL: Absolutely.

MW: Amy Howell is from Dallas Texas and is in Barcelona on vacation. She was on Las Ramblas yesterday when the attack took place. My next guest says she was not surprised by this attack in Barcelona. Author and journalist, Loretta Napoleoni, has written extensively on global terrorism and ISIS. Her latest book is called The Islamic Phoenix. Loretta Napoleoni joins me now from Whitefish, Montana. Hello.

LORETTA NAPOLEONI: Good morning.

MW: Good Morning. What made you expect an attack in Spain?

LORETTA NAPOLEONI: Well, the Spanish anti-terrorism spoiled, in 2016, 12 attempted attacks, similar to this one that we are seeing, unfortunately this year max at least one that we're seeing, unfortunately, yesterday. In 2017, they managed to stop other four. So, Spain is a target, as is you know the United Kingdom and also France, but one of the reasons why Spain is a particularly important time, is because it is a very large Muslim community, especially in Catalonia. So there is a critical mass where the Islamic State can recruit potential attacker and potential terrorists.

MW: Do you have a sense of how prepared Spain was for this sort of attack? I mean has it been vested in counterterrorism?

LORETTA NAPOLEONI: Yes. I mean the Spanish counter terrorism is one of the best. I would say perhaps it is the best in Europe. Let's not forget that this is a country which has a long, bloody history of terrorism, you know ETA. So they know how react. Also they know how to reassure the public. If you look at the reaction of the Spanish people, in the aftermath of the attack, it was actually the reaction of a nation that just very cohesive, of a nation that stand all together, against the terrorists. So that's quite remarkable.

MW: What do you make of the timing of this attack?

LORETTA NAPOLEONI: Well, I mean the timing is quite, I think it's quite relevant because three days before we had an attack in Burkina Faso, where 17 people died. It was the classic commando guerrilla, commander out that we have seen happening in Africa. And you know ISIS was behind it. But you know ISIS can be anything. And what I'm saying is that we're not talking about Al-Baghdadi, who's from Syria or Iraq, sending the specific order. We're talking about in ideology. We're talking about a global terrorist movement. So the attack happened three days before the attack in Barcelona.

MW: This is the one in Burkina Faso where two Canadians were killed in that attack.

LORETTA NAPOLEONI: Yes, absolutely. And another interesting element is that three Europeans who had been kidnapped by al-Qaida in the Maghreb kept in Mali. So, next door to Burkina Faso were released in July. The payment of the ransom was about three million euros per hostage. So all of a sudden we have this flow of money and then we have the Burkina Faso attacked and now we have you know the Madrid attack.

MW: Hm. I want to talk about the weapons that that was the weapons that have been used in recent attacks, meaning vehicles. We've seen them used in France, and Germany, Sweden, the U.K. Are we at a point now where we should consider the use of new cars as weapons as a kind of standard part of the terrorist arsenal. Yeah I think that this is the cheapest way to do a terrorist attack. You go you rent a van in a very busy area and you kill people with the van. However, in these particular circumstances in the Barcelona attack the police investigating that possibility that actually this kind of attack was carried out because they couldn't carry out another attack which involved explosives. Now we don't know yet, if this is the case, but it is possible that because the last explosive, there was an explosion in a town, south of Barcelona, the night before the attack. So, it is possible that the last explosive and then they decided to revert to a different kind of attack.

MW: I see, that's interesting. The person who drove the van had to know that he was going to kill a lot of tourists. Is this a new trend in this in these kinds of attacks, as well.

LORETTA NAPOLEONI: I would say that they don't care where they are killing, and this is a very important issue. Because if you look at 2004, the Atocya, which is you know the biggest attack we have in Spain. Before this when the attack was not directed towards tourists. It was actually directed towards a Spaniard who was doing a computer time and he was on trains. So, that the jihadists did not target tourists in the past. They wanted specifically to target the citizens of the country because they saw them as responsible for the action of their own government. Now things have changed completely. They don't care who they kill as long as they kill.

MW: ISIS has claimed responsibility on its AMAC news agency. Though those claims have often been unreliable, what do you think? Who do you think is responsible?

LORETTA NAPOLEONI: I don't think that ISIS is a predominant organization, as Al-Qaeda was, in the Past, Whereby a decision is made in one country and an attack out in another country. I don't think that this is happening at all. I think the situation is much more serious because we have sort of the ideology. Ideology of terror. which roots by all means started by ISIS but it is now taking a life of its own. It is likely that the people that carried out the attack in Barcelona at the links with other people in the in Europe and also in Africa. So, it's a network with a network of people that interact with each other to the internet but don't even know each other. Well, so they want to do anything that creates this kind of chaos, terror, again. The number of bodies on the ground that is about it, I think. “.

MW: OK. Thank you very much for speaking with us today.

LORETTA NAPOLEONI: Thank you.

LORETTA NAPOLEONI: I've been speaking with Loretta Napoleopni who is a journalist and author who investigates terrorism. She spoke with us from Whitefish, Montana. The CBC News is next. Then in Charlottesville Virginia last weekend services were underway in a local synagogue when something very frightening started to happen outside.

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Somebody look out the window and thought that there were white supremacists on the street. And I do get scared. Yeah I did get scared.

MW: That's Rabbi Rachel Schmelkin , coming up after the news we'll hear more from Charlottesville. Jewish community who found themselves under attack from white nationalist protesters. I'm Megan Williams And you're listening to the summer edition of the current.

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Confederate statues represent 'image of America as a white society,' says historian

Guest: Eric Foner

MW: Hello I'm Megan Williams and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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MW: Up next, what's really behind confederate monuments in the United States?

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DONALD TRUMP: Many of those people were there to protest the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. So, this week it's Robert Lee. I notice that Stonewall Jackson's coming down. I wonder, is George Washington next week? And is it Thomas Jefferson the week after? You know you really do have to ask yourself where does it stop?

MW: That was President Donald Trump on Tuesday comparing two Confederate generals, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, to the former presidents and founding fathers George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. According to the president's logic, since Washington and Jefferson were both slave owners their statues should come down, too, just as statues of heroes of the Southern Confederacy are now coming down across the country. Those Confederate statues have of course become a rallying points for white supremacists in the US. And President Trump yesterday reiterated his opposition to taking them down. Eric Foner knows a lot about the Confederacy and the Civil War. His book, The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and American Slavery won the Pulitzer Prize for history. His most recent book is Battles for Freedom: The Use and Abuse of American History. He is a professor on the faculty of history at Columbia University. And we've reached him in New York. Hello.

ERIC FONER: Good morning. Nice to talk to you.

MW: Nice to talk to you. What do you think of the move to take down statues of Confederate General Robert E. Lee in places like Baltimore and New Orleans?

ERIC FONER: Well you know if you ask a historian in a question like that you get a long answer, but I'll try to be brief. You know I am personally not in favor of taking down every single Confederate statue that's all around the country in the South of the States. But I do think the thing to point out really is two things. First of all, these statues actually don't have a lot to do with the civil war. Most of them will put up many many years after the Civil War and they were put up mostly to be part of the legitimacy of white supremacy of the Jim Crow system in the south, long after slavery. A lot of them were put up in the 1890s when the rights of blacks were being curtailed. They were losing the right to vote. Segregation was coming in. A lot of them were put up in the 1920s when the Ku Klux Klan was on the march again. And also, the United States was cutting back on immigration from abroad. So, in other words, they're part and they're part of this image of America as a white society. And that's why people object to them not because of you know a lack of interest in heritage or legacy. The other point, simply, is that if you had a truly representative public history they would not be as offensive. But, you know, how many statues of black people are there in the south? Very, very few. What about the southerners who actually supported the Union? There were millions of them. How come they don't get any statues? In other words, this is a very partial, limited picture of the of the actual history of the 19th century in the South and particularly the role of- You know blacks were 45 percent of the population of Virginia, during the Civil War. Robert E. Lee did not speak to them at all. So you know if you are going to keep Robert E. Lee, let's have a statue of Nat Turner the slave rebel, or maybe of John Langston the first black congressman from Virginia in the 1880s. But they don't put up statues of those guys because the statues are meant to symbolize white supremacy and putting up a statue of a black doesn't fit.

MW: Right. Right. What do you think of President Trump equating Robert E. Lee with George Washington and Thomas Jefferson?

ERIC FONER: Well, I'm glad that the president Trump knows a little bit about American history. He obviously doesn't know much. Not that he has any intellectual curiosity about it. I haven't heard anybody claiming that statues of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson should be taken down. We have a statue of Thomas Jefferson on my campus, Columbia. I haven't seen any demonstrations in front of it. The point is Lee is being celebrated precisely because he led an army to defend the Southern Confederacy which was an attempt to build a nation based on the institution of slavery. That's what the Confederacy was. Lee understood that. Lee was a very intelligent man. And nobody has accused George Washington, I don't think, of leading an army against the government of the United States. Thomas Jefferson, he didn't quite do that either. So you know, no nobody in history is perfect. If you are only going to put up statues of perfect people, you're not going to have a lot of statues right.

MW: Right.

ERIC FONER: What is the most important thing in the lives of these men?

MW: But what do you make of Trump saying they were slave owners and somehow…

ERIC FONER: They were, of course they were, but I've never heard anyone say that the statue of every single slave owner ought to be taken down. However, they should be contextualized at the Washington Monument. They should say something about Washington and his slaves. They're actually doing that at Mount Vernon where Washington lived or at Monticello with Jefferson's home. They now have significant exhibits about slavery at those places in Washington or Jefferson's relationship to slavery. Nothing wrong with that, whatsoever. I think hiding slavery from the picture of those men would be would be quite wrong. But you know statues represent people who ought to be emulated in some way or who the government claims represents the best of the society. And you know I just I don't think there are that many countries that have statues to people who lead an army against the government of that country.

MW: Right. Can you give me an idea of the Confederacy and the cause that Robert E. Lee was fighting for?

ERIC FONER: Well you can go back to the famous cornerstone speech by Alexander Stephens, the vice president of the Confederacy, right at the beginning of the civil war in which he said: “We have founded a government, the Confederate States of America, whose cornerstone is the institution of slavery.” Not only the institution of slavery, but he went on: “The superiority of the white race over the black race.” That's the cornerstone. That's not the whole thing, the cornerstone is not the entire building. Certainly there were other issues involved; states rights; local self-determination. But you can't have it if you take the cornerstone away, you're not going to have much of a building. And Lee was smart enough to understand that. And the point is Lee was a slave owner. Lee never freed any of his slaves. Lee never supported the rights of black people, after the Civil War. In fact, when there was Klan violence against blacks in Virginia, people asked Lee speak out against violence, against the former slaves and he refused he said “I'm not going to say anything about that.” So you know it's not to say: “Oh look we're a bad guy Lee was”. Lee had many admirable qualities also. But the question is really who chooses what monuments are up there? These monuments are an expression of power. Who has the power to determine what the public presentation of history is and through, almost all of southern history is white people who have had this power. Now you have others who are claiming “we don't like the public representation of history that has been dominant in this region for the last 200 years or so”.

MW: Right. Well you know many doubt that that the white supremacists who are marching around these statues actually care that much about the statues themselves, that it's just an excuse to…

ERIC FONER: Oh, absolutely. These are symbols of white rule. That's why people rally about them. Believe me, if you ask those marchers in Charlottesville, let's sa, do know what was in the Confederate Constitution? I don't think any of them would have an idea.

MW: Right, right.

ERIC FONER: It's not the specifics of that; it's what these statues symbolize. And unfortunately, they have taken control, so to speak, of the symbolism of those statues and made them even more into representations of white supremacy. So, you know, but as I say, I'm not against taking down all these statues. There were some, I think, ought to come down. But I'm in favor of building more statues. Let's have a truly representative picture of southern history in the public monuments there.

MW: Can you tell me about the idea of the lost cause and the role that Robert E. Lee plays in it?

ERIC FONER: Absolutely. Well, you know, at the very- Right after the civil war, there weren't a lot of people in the south celebrating the Confederacy. You know, the people like Lee had led the South into an utter disaster, giant loss, loss of life, property destruction. The thing they went to war to save slavery was destroyed in the war. It took a generation; it's really the 1890s that this idea of the Lost Cause the romanticized nostalgia of the Confederacy came to dominate, not only in the South, but in the north as well. This was part of the reconciliation of White Northerners and White Southerners. And Lee becomes a kind of symbol of that. You know you have what they call the cult of Lincoln and Lee. Southerners began to admire Lincoln, Northerners admired Lee. In other words, they were people who both sides could admire as sort of representing the best of their society. That was part of this reconciliation. The only problem is, another part of the reconciliation was forgetting that the war had been fought over slavery. And secondly, acquiescence in the destruction of the basic political and civil rights of black people in the sout. It was a lost cause as part of a white reconciliation that left blacks out in the cold and also distorted the teaching of history for generations. You know for a long, long time people in the United States, basic… You know slavery really have nothing to do with the civil war. And when you say that, then, Lee is elevated in reputation. It becomes question of valor, of military strategy, you know, of standing up for your region. More recently, in the last couple of generations, we've gone back to the insight that slavery was the fundamental issue and therefore leaves reputation begins to fade a little bit. It's not just that he's a gallant man fighting for his beliefs. He's a gallant man fighting for slavery.

MW: Right.

ERIC FONER: And that makes him look a little bit different.

MW: I think you meant that Southerners, that Lee became a symbol for Southerners, no?

ERIC FONER: No, he became a symbol for the whole country.

MW: Okay. No. But you said Lincoln…

ERIC FONER: That was actually my point. And by the way.

MW: Yes.

ERIC FONER: If you noticed there were two statues of Lee in the north that are behind challenged now. This was, as I say, part of North and South reconciling white people. And of course, it was throughout the culture. It wasn't just in, you know, in statues or in history books. Go back to the film The Birth of a Nation, you know.

MW: Right.

ERIC FONER: 1916, which had its premiere in the White House when Woodrow Wilson was president. That's a glorification of the Confederacy a glorification of the Ku Klux Klan. Blacks are presented as virtual animals in that violent, you know rapists- and you know that was a very very popular film. And so these statues in a sense a part of a more general cultural movement to forget about the role of slavery in the civil war.

MW: Okay, thanks very much. We're going to have to wrap it up there.

ERIC FONER: Okay, nice to talk to you.

MW: Nice to talk to you. I've been speaking with Eric Foner. He's the author of The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and American Slavery, which won the Pulitzer Prize for history. He is a professor on the faculty of history of history at Columbia University. We reached him in New York City.

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Anti-semitism in Charlottesville exposes an 'assault on empathy,' says Jewish author

Guest: Nathan Englander

MW: As we continue this conversation about the Charlottesville riots, a word of warning, some of the tape we're going to be hearing now is of a hateful and offensive nature, because the people who rallied in support of the statue of Robert E. Lee, had another target for their hatred.

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[Demonstrations]

Jews will not replace us.

Jews will not replace us.

MW: Anti-Semitic sentiment was on prominent display among many of the white nationalist protesters in Charlottesville, last week. On Saturday, before Heather Haier was killed, VICE News interviewed Christopher Cantwell. He is an anti-Semitic, white nationalist, who was scheduled to speak at the Unite the Right rally.

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CHRISTOPHER CANTWELL: Can you tell me the name of all 19 hijackers on 9/11, over the top of your head? You can remember Dylann Roof's name.

[cross talk].

CHRISTOPHER CANTWELL: I didn't say capable, of course we're capable. I am carrying a pistol. I go to the gym all the time. I'm trying to make myself more capable of violence. I'm here to spread ideas, talk in the hopes that somebody more capable will come along and do that. Somebody like Donald Trump who does not give his daughter to a Jew.

INTERVIEWER: So, Donald Trump, but like lot more racist.

CHRISTOPHER CANTWELL: Yes. A lot more racist than Donald Trump. I don't think that you could feel about race the way I do and watch that Kushner bastard walk around with that beautiful girl. Okay?

MW: Just down the street from emancipation park where the white nationalists were supposed to be gathering on Saturday, stands one of the oldest synagogues in the American south. Congregation Beth Israel was established in 1882. Last weekend it was targeted by protesters with threats to burn the temple down. According to the synagogue's president, on Saturday morning while worshippers gathered inside, three men carrying semi-automatic rifles stood across from the temple. Allen Zimmerman says parades of Nazis, some carrying flags with swastikas, passed by the building, chanting the Nazi salute Sieg Heil.

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VOICE 1: It was Indescribable. I never, for a minute, ever thought in my life that I would see that, on the streets of America.

VOICE 2: If I'd taken a camera, and film that black and white. It would look to people like [unintelligible] from 1933, in Germany. Even now, just it's unbelievable.

MW: The sounds and images of violent anti-Semitism in Charlottesville, hit home for Nathan Englander. He's the author of the forthcoming novel Dinner at the Center of the Earth. And for him, what happened in Charlottesville brought back some unpleasant memories from his childhood, growing up in the 70s and 80s, in an Orthodox Jewish family on Long Island. He wrote about it for the New York Times earlier this week and a piece called: What Jewish children learned from Charlottesville? Nathan Englander is in our New York studio. Good morning.

NATHAN ENGLANDER: Morning. Thanks for having me.

MW: What memories did the anti-Semitism, in Charlottesville, bring back for you?

NATHAN ENGLANDER: So, they both brought back memories but I think the main reason I wrote it is because memories are always there and I can't, even after listening to Professor Foner, like, you know the main point of my piece was time being lost. I literally can't believe you two guests from the states are you know saying slavery is bad and now I'm here to say Nazis are bad. We're just… It's bizarre to me. But in terms of memories, I mean, I just wrote it into this new book. It's in my last book I just grew up in our Orthodox town, with a yarmulke on my head and I just will not...It took me so long and I worked so hard not to be made ‘other’ again and you know. I can say it so many times, this you know, bizarre notion I'm fifth generation American and it's a kind of you know small titera. I'm not you know Barcelona were all in mourning today. But the idea of terrifying children or terrifying people whether it's a black child, or a Muslim child, or a Hispanic child, or a Jewish child, but for me yes wearing a yarmulke on your head in our town it was just part of my life. We were a vibrant community and maybe that's what scared, you know, certain houses around us. But yes it was the Swastikas, the cat calls, or you know the main story in my piece which is what I tie Trump so much, which is the winking, the non-shy things, the inability to say you know that the Holocaust on Holocaust Memorial Day that the White House will not say that that the Holocaust was aimed at Jews. It's bizarre or to not say that you know who to put the blame the violence on in Charlottesville. It's just insane. But I had this distinct memory just came back so sharply of my sister and I, you know, little kids. She's older she hates when I say that on the radio. She's like just call me your sister. Nonetheless, walking home from the candy store with a friend of hers and this, you know, we just knew the houses, and just my sister and her friends surrounded and, you know because of my yarmulke, we were always marked, and me running home to get my parents, you know. And this idea, I just, I can't you know on the radio. I'm 47 years old you know I just remember my parents racing down to free my sister and then to you know go to this boy's house and face those parents. And that's what came back so sharply. It’s is opposed to violence and the loss of life, but the lack of leadership and the lack of ethics and empathy and a moral core coming from the top. But I remember those parents you know saying you know to their son the fake chiding they said whether it's you know I did not. It's a whole separate. They said whether they use the N-word you know those kids or Jews with horns you know like you are with horns.

MW: Yeah you open your piece with it with a pretty unsettling line. There's this dirty Jew remembers every penny thrown at him.

NATHAN ENGLANDER: You know I remember just standing there was a balcony at our pool like three doors down from my house. And I was slightly older we were with younger kids and just waiting outside to be picked up, and just do you know them throwing change down and the little kids scurrying for change you know. I remember that shame, that burning shame and once coming home from synagogue with my father and one of our neighbors you know ,we wore suits, our little three piece suits, you know, that idea. But seeing one of our neighbor children surrounded by those same bullies that same house you know that bothered me and my sister and anyone who passed you know but this kid crawling on hands and knees they were forcing him to crawl for change. And my father you know we're in suburbia. My dad's a Brooklyn guy. You know he got in there and chased the kids off. And I just remember that notion of him standing that kid up. But this idea you know, like I just, you know the idea that this is coming back that anyone needs to see these images or hear the chance that you just played on your show. Like I'm a parent now and I know my wife's you know story like that's what I'm telling you like my father in law from Montreal he tells me, I know his story of when he went from you know the Talmud Torah to the public school in Montreal, like these things stay with you for your life. I hear his story six day hear my wife say when her teacher got mad at her in school or something and said I'm going to make a lampshade out of you. Like these single lines stay with you for your life now.

MW: you writing your piece in the seven months of this presidency and one single day in Charlottesville all of that is lost. So what are you what are you referring to with all of that? Because you're depicting you know a pretty awful picture of anti-Semitism so. So what changed, leading up to Trump?

NATHAN ENGLANDER: Yes I think you know obviously you know I'm not an innocent, there's always this thing in the world. It is what the dominant culture is. What it is to live in a civil society? What it is to have empathy? And you know it's this notion. I look at you know younger Jews, like my nephews age, the 20 year olds and teenagers and they are proud and not frightened and don't look over their shoulder the way I did. And this goes across things my friends who you know my gay friends who came out it was different. You know to come out in the 70s or the 80s. We're making such real progress and you know the idea of time lost. I brought back this thing you know back to remembering the traumas also something the rabbis taught us which is if you interrupt class they'd say you know it's not just one minute taken like you've stolen a minute from each of us that's like 30 minutes lost. And I feel like that one day in Charlottesville if you multiply that by the 300 million plus Americans it's like millions of years of the lost of tolerance like this. You know, this president is taking us backwards. These people you should be ashamed to have those feelings like, you know, this idea of this weird moral equivalency where he's worried about statues but freeing up our national parks for drilling. You know, it's bizarre to me. But yes you should be ashamed to be a Nazi and I cannot believe I'm on the radio saying that.

MW: I mean did what happened in Charlottesville change your view about how persistent anti-Semitism is today?

NATHAN ENGLANDER: No, because this is my point of what I want not to be my mindset. I was raised with the notion that there could be a second Holocaust at any time, that anyone could turn on you at any time. You know, that's the title of my last book. Like my sister and I would play this game who would hide us. We would literally discuss if another Holocaust come, which of our Christian neighbors would take us in, you know. And I'm saying I don't want my child thinking that way, and I'm saying of course these things are always part of a universe. There's always people filled with hate. I'm saying that we have no leadership now. You know I'm saying we have someone unmoored in the White House who is saying that this is okay, who will not let the country know that it is time to unify.

MW: Despite the fact that his own grandchildren are Jewish, his own daughter is Jewish?

NATHAN ENGLANDER: Honestly, I'm not a mental health professional but the narcissistic personality disorder that is so on display. I do not think he can connect even to… You are asking him to empathize two generations away. I haven't seen him with his, you know, he has a 10 year old, he golfs every week, like I don't think he can go to grandchildren.

MW: Right. Nathan I want to ask you, just very quickly, if you can tell me going forward in the aftermath of Charlottesville, what should Jewish Americans keep in mind and do about the situation?

NATHAN ENGLANDER: And that's the other point of splitting us up again. It's not Jewish Americans. It is my responsibility as American. I always get a tear in my eye when I'm coming up to Toronto in a couple weeks, when I see your airport and I see what it looks like. You know what people look like coming in there. We need to take refugees in. We're a super-rich country. Like, Syria is my problem, you know. How you know black people are treated by police in America, is my problem. ISIS having people terrified is my problem. It's all our problems. So, it's not Jewish Americans. I am an American. We are all Americans. I can self-identify how I want. So, my point is all of us need to make clear that this kind of behavior, and I am a super free speech First Amendment person, but I'm saying there is certain speech you know we cannot allow our society to come apart. This violent speech has to be put back where it belongs which is in the shadows.

MW: Okay. Thank you so much for speaking with us this morning.

NATHAN ENGLANDER: Thank you for having me.

MW: Nathan Englander is a Jewish American writer and the author of the upcoming novel: Dinner at the Center of the Earth. And he was in our New York studio. That's our program for today. We're going to end things off with a musical tribute to a city that's in mourning today. Freddie Mercury joined forces with the Spanish soprano, Montserrat Caballé, back in the late 1980s, to record this stirring pop opera song. It went on to become the official theme of the Barcelona Olympic Games in 1992. Here they are with the song Barcelona. I'm Megan Williams. Thanks for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Barcelona by Freddie Mercury and Montserrat Caballé]

Barcelona

Barcelona

Ohh

Barcelona

Barcelona

Ohh

Viva

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August 18, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

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