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The AIH Transcript for August 8, 2017

Hosts: Rosemary Barton and Robert Doane

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

ROSEMARY BARTON: Hello, I'm Rosemary Barton.

ROBERT DOAN: Good evening, I'm Robert Doane. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

RD: Tonight:

RB: A call against arms. Bormer Bloc MP Daniel Turp says videos of Canadian armed vehicles being used in civilian areas of Saudi Arabia are all the evidence the government should need to block future sales.

RD: Lost and found. 16 years after September 11^th, the remains of someone who died in the World Trade Center attack are identified, after years of laborious forensic research.

RB: Everyone else figured there was nothing, but she knew author-wise. For 10 years our guest has been haunted by the notion that Chuck Palahniuk had left something in the house she bought from him. Now, she's been proven right.

RD: Gentle on our minds. With his easygoing charm and seemingly effortless talent, the late Glen Campbell went from country star to pop star with stints as a TV star and movie star as well.

RB: Getting the chauffeur on the road. A reporter in Arlington, Virginia investigates the “driverless van” that's been spotted around town, only to discover it's actually being driven by a human being cunningly disguised as a car seat.

RD: And… courting disaster. Our guests were shocked to discover the same guy had arranged dates with both of them on the same night, and downright furious to find out he had just double-booked, he’d sextuple-booked. As It Happenes, the Tuesday edition. Radio that's not suitable for all woo-ers.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Saudi armoured vehicle sale, Chuck Pahlahniuk time capsule, Mr. Car Seat

Destroyed homes

Guest: Jason Schurman

Saudi armoured vehicle sale

Guest: Daniel Turp

RD: Chrystia Freeland says she's deeply concerned. The Minister of Foreign Affairs was responding to videos that appeared to show Canadian-made armoured vehicles being used by Saudi special forces against the kingdom's own citizens. Minister Freeland says she's asked her officials to investigate. But Daniel Turp has seen enough. The law professor, and former Bloc Quebecois MP is appealing to the Federal Court of Appeals to block a deal that would send $15 billion worth of Canadian light armoured vehicles to the Saudis. We reached Daniel Turp in Montreal.

RB: Mr. Turp, for people who haven't seen the videos, tell us how you believe and others believe Canadian armored vehicles are now being used?

DANIEL TURP: Well, I think this new evidence brings to light that while the former evidence we did have, and I presented it in my case in front of the federal court, tends to show that there is a reasonable risk that our vehicles have been and could be used to breach human rights in Saudi Arabia. So I think these new clips show that there is a risk and then Canada shouldn't export these armed vehicles to Saudi Arabia.

RB: Your case was dismissed in part because the judge didn't think you had enough evidence. Would these videos provide the evidence that the judge might have required?

DT: Well, I believe so and I would hope that the justice of the Court of Appeal the Federal Court of Appeal would disagree with the first judge because we did bring evidence. It wasn't really taken into account by the first judge. And she relied solely on the fact that the minister was told by his civil servants that there was no reasonable risk and were quite upset with the fact that she really didn't take into account our evidence.

RB: Well, the minister now has seen these videos and has launched an investigation internally and I want to play for listeners a bit of what she said in a teleconference call from Manila about them yesterday. Here's the minister.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: I am very concerned about these reports. I have instructed our department and my officials to very energetically and very carefully review the report. We are absolutely committed to the defense of human rights. We also are very clear that we expect the end users of any and all experts to abide by the terms of our export permit. We've expressed our concerns to the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and we will respond accordingly.

RB: What do you make of that? And, particularly, that last line when she says we will respond accordingly. What do you make of it?

DT: What we expect — I think a lot of people in Canada expect — that the government abides by its own laws and its own guidelines when it comes to export of military equipment. And those guidelines say if there's a reasonable risk, there should be no export. And what the minister is doing is saying well maybe now that there is a risk and maybe we'll have some evidence that there is such a risk. I just hope that she's not just winning time and saying well we’ll inquiry, we need more evidence, more proof. But you know it’s going to be very difficult to find more proof and more evidence because I understand that Saudi Arabians are not giving any access to the area to the territory where there has been, or is suggested there's been, a breach of human rights in that eastern part of Saudi Arabia. So you know I think that the government should have never entered into that deal to begin with and should never have delivered those export permits. And I just hope that there will not be another reason why things shouldn't change.

RB: The problem of course is that the deal has been made and the export permits have been granted. And the company — General Dynamics — which is in London, Ontario has workers there. They're producing these light armored vehicles that eventually will make their way to Saudi Arabia. So what do you say to the people in that plant and to the company, who are reliant on the contract? How should the government deal with that part of it?

DT: Well, that's the government's problem. You know, I'm not the one to say what should be done and, obviously, it could have consequences on people and families and that we would not be a good thing. That the people would suffer from the end of the contract, but that the government would have to find a good solution. And what we should be caring about is also about the rule of law. When Canada adopts laws and guidelines that say you don't export military equipment to countries that breach human rights or that could breach human rights because we send military equipment to them, well, that government should abide by the law. And it shouldn't find any kind of excuse or suggest like Minister Dion said before his colleagues that well, if we don't sell those arms to Saudi Arabia, well maybe other countries will. Or Saudi Arabia is a partner in the fighting against terrorism. Well, Saudi Arabia, obviously, is also a country that breaches human rights. And the foreign policy of Canada is supposed to be about human rights and making sure that what Canada does does not contribute to breaching human rights in the world, including Saudi Arabia.

RB: The government — this government — has sent the message that Canada is back on the world stage and is trying to position itself as a soft power. If it were to cancel these export permits, what message do you think that would send?

DT: It would send a great message to other countries that that deal with Saudi Arabia that sell arms to countries like Saudi Arabia. It would say it's over and Saudi Arabia could not rely on the democracies to supply it with arms. Sweden is doing it, what is Canada waiting for? And then that would give an example and would show that there is a meaning to human rights. And countries that don't have to respect human rights shouldn't expect to be trading partners that can obtain military goods from countries that are concerned by human rights. Not only in their own country, but elsewhere in the world. And that's what human rights are all about. They’re universal. We should be concerned by the rights of everyone on this planet. And that is something that I think so many Canadians expect from this government and should expect from any government they elect in Canada.

RB: And if the government doesn't come to the answer that you want, you are taking them back to court back to court?

DT: Back to court. Back before three federal Court of Appeal judges and hopefully they will agree with a first time that there is the reasonable risk that those LAVs, if there are they are exported to Saudi Arabia one day, and we don't know. There's something also really terrible in this whole process. We don't know what's in the contract? We don't know how many LAVs will be delivered really? And when they will be? So back to court, but I hope I won't need to do that and my lawyers won't need to do that. My students will not need to do more research because if the government does cancel the deal or cancel the export permits, we won't need to go back to court.

RB: Daniel Turp, thanks for your time today. I appreciate it.

DT: My pleasure.

RB: Merci

DT: Au revoir

RD: Daniel Turp teaches law at the University of Montreal. He was in Montreal. We requested an interview with Foreign Affairs Minister Freeland and we'll let you know when we hear back.

[Music: I Might be Wrong/ Rock]

Trump North Korea

RD: The news out of North Korea today was dramatic enough. Then came the dramatic response from U.S. President Donald Trump. Earlier today, U.S. intelligence officials said that North Korea had successfully developed the ability to build a miniaturized nuclear weapon, designed to fit inside an intercontinental missile. It could mean the country is one step closer to becoming a full-fledged nuclear power. A couple of hours later, after a briefing on opioids a New Jersey, President Trump responded. Here's what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States. They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen. He has been very threatening beyond a normal state. And, as I said, they will be met with fire, fury and, frankly, power, the likes of which this world has never seen before. Thank you.

RD: U.S. President Donald Trump, responding to news earlier today that North Korea has developed the ability to build miniaturized nuclear weapons capable of striking the United States.

[Music: The Departed/ Rock]

Palahniuk time capsule

Guest: Jolynn Winter

RD: Ten years ago, Jolynn Winter and her husband bought a house in Portland, Oregon. To the family, it was a remarkable house for two reasons: first, obviously, it was their new family home. But second, its previous owner was Chuck Palahniuk — best selling author of “Fight Club” and “Haunted”, amongst others. Ms. Winter is a big fan of Mr. Palahniuk and she was sure he would have left something behind for the new owners to find. But over the last decade in the house, nothing turned up. Then last week, while doing some renos, the family came across something peculiar. And it turns out Ms. Winter was right all along. And we reached Jolynn Winter in Portland, Oregon.

RB: Hi Jolynn Winter.

JOLYNN WINTER: Hi, how are you doing, Rosemary?

RB: Good. So you're doing some remodeling and you discovered something that Chuck Palahniuk had left behind, what?

JW: Well, he left behind this backgammon box filled with treasures. Everything from pictures to old newspaper articles, even an autographed copy of his first novel, “Fight Club”.

RB: Wow. And where did you find it?

JW: We found it up in the ceiling. Actually, my contractors found it and I told my contractors I said hey, I said I want you to keep an eye out for something unusual that's hidden in the walls. And the reason why I did that is because Chuck kind of had a little tendency to do some awkward things on this property that I noticed. For instance, in the book “Choke”, which later was turned into a movie, one of the characters collects rocks to build his dream home. And we have rock walls throughout this entire one-acre property. And then in the book “Diary”, one of the characters is a contractor who wall the rooms and writes disturbing messages inside the walls before covering them up. So I said you know what? This sounds like a Diary-sort of thing that could happen and sure enough, it did.

RB: So you're on the lookout.

JW: I was on the lookout. And so I wasn't too surprised when the contractor said hey, Jolynn, we think we found something. Went down and looked at it and sure enough, there it was.

RB: So can you tell us a bit about the note that he left inside the box?

JW: Yeah, it was a note to whoever found the box. He put the box in the wall back in 2002 — in August of 2002 — so we found that box almost literally to the day that he put it in there 15 years later, which is kind of interesting. But in the box, he talks a little bit about who he was and how he actually owned the house next door for a while and then moved over here to this house. It talked a little bit about some of the things that they did in this house and how it was in kind of a shambles actually. And showed pictures of that and what they did to fix it up and talked a little bit about his life and how he was really happy that we found it and I hope that we enjoyed it.

RB: And what kind of things had he done on the house? You talked about rock walls, what other things that he done?

JW: He's done hand-capped pavers. He used those magnetic letters that you might find that kids would use to put on the refrigerator. He would write words in these hand-capped pavers that he placed throughout the entire property, pretty fantastic stuff. And then also, the property was pretty much just blackberry brambles and ivy at one time. And he did a lot of work stripping down this one-acre piece of property and basically turning it into a gigantic English garden, it's absolutely fantastic and we've done everything that we can do to try to keep it up.

RB: So you were a fan of his before you bought the house. Was it one of the reasons why you bought the house?

JW: No, actually we were going to buy the neighbor's house next door. And some things happened as to why we decided to kind of throw our hands up in the air and not purchase that house. As a matter of fact, I came over to knock on the door of this house not realizing that Chuck Palahniuk actually lived here to see if I could get some information on the neighborhood and the neighbors and find out a little bit more about this area. And he, unfortunately, wasn't home at the time. But then after my husband and I pulled out on the house next door, we found out that this house was for sale and then we found out that it was actually owned by Chuck Palahniuk, which made it even just that much more of a treasure.

RB: So you had already read his books I guess when you bought the house?

JW: Yeah. Of course, everybody is a big fan of the movie Fight Club and I had no idea that that was actually a book until I saw that it was a book too. So actually it was a book before it was a movie.

RB: Yeah, I was just wondering whether you read the books then looking for clues because I don't know that I would have done that. So did you do that?

JW: Yeah a little bit. I kind of thought you know I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there's something in these walls. Actually when we remodeled the little house next door, which is where Chuck lived before he made it big with the book Fight Club, we stripped that thing down to the studs and we were kind of hoping to find something there and we never did. So I was a little bit disheartened about that. But then you know when we found this I was like Oh, all right this is really cool. Thank you, Chuck.

RB: What have you done? You’ve put everything on eBay, you're selling it for thousands of dollars. Is that you’ve done with the items.

JW: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That is not the Chuck Palahniuk way. And that is not the Jolynn Winter way either. So what we decided to do was we decided to make photocopies of everything that was in the backgammon box and then we put it all back in there, including the autographed book club of Fight Club. And then we decided to just kind of pay it forward and add to it and talk a little bit about our lives and what we do and how we ended up here and left that for whoever might find it. So wouldn't it be fun if you know maybe 20 years down the road, somebody else finds this and just kind of pays it forward again. And then you know 200 years down the road, well this house is still standing, you find 20 time capsule somewhere in a wall.

RB: Has Chuck Palahniuk, has he reacted? Have you heard from him?

JW: I have not heard from him. However, I do understand that he has seen the Facebook post and that he did see the local television coverage. So I'm glad that we were able to you know at least preserve it for him because I think he was a little bummed that somebody found it so soon. I think he was hoping that he'd be dead by the time somebody found it. So that's one of the reasons why we decided to put it back up there too. And also just an invitation to Chuck Palahniuk that you know hey, if you guys want to come over once we're done with our remodel, we'd love to share it with you and kind of talk to you about the history of this home.

RB: What specifically did you put in to represent you and your partner?

JW: Let's see here, we put in a letter to whoever finds the box. We put in a newspaper. we put in the solar eclipse glasses that everybody is going out and getting right now because it's kind of the big news. We put in a flash drive of the local television coverage as well as radio air check because I'm a radio personality as well. But who knows if whoever finds is going to even have that technology to be able to see or listen to it? We put in more pictures of the remodeled house and some photos of the remodel that we did next door as well. So we've filled that thing to the brim.

RB: Well, it's a cool story and I can't believe you put it all back in the wall. I think you're a better person than I. I'm not sure I would have done that.

JW: Yeah. Well, you know I'm not sure what I would have done with it otherwise. And I'm just kind of really thrilled with the opportunity to pay it forward.

RB: All right, nice to meet you, Jolynn Winter.

JW: So nice to meet you too, Rosemary.

RB: Good chatting. Bye bye.

JW: Bye bye.

RD: That was Jolynn Winter. We reached her in Portland, Oregon. And if you want to see photos of Chuck Palahniuk’s time capsule, head to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Twerk/ Hip-hop]

Driverless car

Guest: Adam Tuss

RD: One of the weirdest stories of his career. That's how NBC News reporter Adam Tuss described the piece he started working on yesterday. Now, he was following up on reports that there was a supposed “driverless van” on the streets of Arlington, Virginia. Mr. Tuss found the vehicle and then this happened.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Knocking on a window]

ADAM TUSS: Brother, who are you? What are you doing? I’m with the news, dude. Dude, can you pull over and we can talk for a second.

RD: Dude! That was NBC reporter Adam Tuss. We reached him in Arlington, Virginia.

RB: OK Adam, tell us what's going on in that clip?

ADAM TUSS: Shock and awe is going on in that clip actually because I couldn't believe what I was actually seeing. I could not believe that there was that half-man-half-car-seat that was pretending to be an autonomous vehicle, driving around the streets of Arlington, Virginia. So super strange story to be thrown in the middle of and then have this plot twist thrown in on you that there is actually a human being in there. So I tried talking to this person, who was covered by half a car seat costume, and got no reaction. But you know I had to give it a try. I was determined to figure out who this was? What he was doing? And once I found out that there was somebody in that car, there was pretty much next to nothing that was going to stop me from getting the answer.

RB: I do find that's what helps me do journalism: I'm with the news, dude.

AT: Sure. I can't I can't tell you how many people have actually waited on that. I will just tell you that that is the way I talk. And so what I talk to people or approach them on the street I find that that completely disarms them. However, it did not disarm Mr. Car Seat.

RB: OK. So describe Mr. Car Seat to people who haven't seen the video yet because the way you're saying half-car-seat-half-man I mean it makes it sound like some sort of circus creature. So what did you physically see in the car?

AT: When we saw the vehicle driving around, it looks like nobody is in the driver's seat, nobody's in the passenger seat. It is completely foolproof. And, obviously, the researchers who put this whole thing together did a lot of testing to make sure that it looks that way because they were trying to gauge a different kind of reaction all in of itself. But it's not until you get right up next to the car that you can actually see down below the steering wheel and that's when I saw a pair of short, white legs and two hands holding the steering wheel and that's when it became very clear that this was a person in this car.

But it was also, I got to tell you, it was like a horror movie because it's so not what you're expecting.

RB: So could this dude, as you describe him, could he breathe? I guess he could see because he was driving around...

AT: I mean it was so realistic that it's even hard now looking back at the picture. It's hard to separate where the feet actually began and ended and where he started. You know he just kind of meshed into the driver's seat. And that is what makes this thing so brilliant is that these researchers spent so much time camouflaging him in this vehicle because what they're really trying to do is see how the public reacted to a car that had no driver and man, they got a reaction.

RB: They spent a lot of time on the costume but for some reason like they didn't give the dude gloves. I mean that was the giveaway to you, wasn't it? These human hands were out.

AT: Well, it was really like the white shorts and white legs that were coming out that they're like whoa, what is that? Like it kind of like maybe if he had like a pair of black pants or something that even camouflaged him even more. Apparently, he just felt like putting on a pair of shorts that day and that's what freaked me out the most.

RB: So you knock on the window, you tell him you're with the news, dude. And then what does he do? How does he react? This driver/ car seat guy.

AT: So you would think that there would be some sort of reaction. I mean all credit to this man, stoic, nothing happened. He just had his hands on the wheel as if I didn't even exist. And then when the light changed, I got back in my car and he pulled away. It became clear to him at some point that we were following him because we were. We followed the vehicle around for about 20 minutes. So we were definitely you know on the case here. But I think at some point, he decided look, I am with is research, I have to do what I have to do. And he just kind of lost us on the road. And then we lost him. But it wasn't till after all of this started kind of getting attention virally on social media that Virginia Tech actually called us to tell us yeah, this is our guy and this is our test and here's what we're doing.

RB: But they won't let you talk to the guy?

AT: No. So when you sign up for these tests, and I'm sure that they're happening in Canada as well, you know a lot of this stuff is a lot of this... Yeah, right… you might be seeing this kind of car seat driving around. A lot of that stuff is you're a volunteer when you sign up and so a lot of it you're kept private and a lot of your information is kept private and for good reason. I mean you don't want your information being out there about your car, what you do and so on and so forth. I asked to interview him, but they won't let me talk to him. But I do appreciate the fact that they at least clarified what exactly was going on here.

RB: Will there be other cars? Other tests? Other drivers or non-drivers?

AT: The funny thing about Virginia is that the governor of this state has said that he wants this to be a breeding ground for autonomous vehicles and all across this state really. And, more specifically, here in Northern Virginia, right outside of Washington D.C., there is a lot of autonomous testing that's going on. Things like you know braking systems and cars that can sense when cars are stopping you know hundreds of feet away, so that they can give you a warning. A lot of that kind of testing is being opened up here because the government has allowed that to happen here. And there are currently no rules that prohibit you from passing any sort of self-driving vehicle in Virginia, just as long as you can take control of the vehicle if something goes wrong. So, with all of that being said, I asked them Is this vehicle done now that we've kind of blown the cover? And they were like well it’s done for the day. But they expect to roll it back out at some point to gain more reaction. And again, this whole thing wasn't about a self-driving car per se, it was about the psychological reaction to a self-driving car. And they wanted to see how the public reacted to something like that. Well, if I'm any indication, you're going to get a lot of reporters chasing around a cars that looks like it has no driver in it.

RB: For some reason it reminded me of that Seinfeld episode where Kramer is convinced he's seen a pig man at the hospital, but no one ever sees him.

AT: I love that episode!

RB: Yes.

AT: And they can't believe it. And he just keeps trying to bring people into the hospital to see it, yeah. Well I mean this was as real as day. I mean for the longest time we thought it was a prank. After we saw that this guy was in a costume, we just thought it was some guy who was pranking everybody. But it wasn't until later on in the day where Virginia Tech called us to tell us that this was one of their vehicles. And actually what they were doing.

RB: All right. Well, you've now found a way to become my favorite news dude.

AT: Ok. Will hey, I will be anyone's favorite news dude. I'll take that any day of the week.

RB: Thanks for being a good sport. Good luck out there, let us know if you find any other driver/ car seats.

AT: Keep your eyes peeled in Canada as well.

RB: Shall do, Adam. Thanks.

AT: All right. Bye.

RB: Bye.

RD: Adam Tuss, favorite news dude, transportation reporter an anchor for NBC News. We reached him in Arlington, Virginia. If you'd like to see some pictures of Mr. Car Seat, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

As it happens is about to take a short break but there's still lots more to come on the Tuesday edition when we return.

The remains of 40 percent of those killed in the attack on the World Trade Center are unidentified to this day. But New York forensic examiners are still at work trying to connect the remains to names. It's agonizingly slow difficult work. But now they've identified another victim not their strong suit her.

A Washington D.C. man may have hope to impress his date with his time management skills and then his next day. And then the other four.

But it turns out none of the six women six feet range dates with him last night found his multitasking at all charming. Stay tuned. I'm Robert.

Back To Top »

Part 2: 9/11 remains ID’d, six dates

9/11 remains ID’d

Guest: Mark Desire

RD: Almost 16 years later, the remains of a man killed in New York City on September 11^th, 2001 have been identified. The Office of the Chief Medical Examiner says is the first new identification in almost two-and-a-half-years. 40 Per cent of those who died on 9/11 are still unidentified. Mark Desire works with the team that identified the man. He's also the leader of the DNA Missing Persons Unit that oversees the 9/11 World Trade Center identifications. We reached Mr. Desire in New York.

RB: Hello, Mr. Desire.

MARK DESIRE: Hello.

RB: So this man that was recently identified, he died almost 16 years ago. Why did it take so long?

MD: The technology needed to identify his remains is much more advanced today than it was in 2001. It took that advancement to finally, after all these years, be able to generate a DNA profile.

RB: And what did you do in order to uncover his identity?

MD: We've attempted many times over the last 16 years to generate a DNA profile. And over these years, out of necessity, we've improved the process of DNA identification a bone. So there are many attempts as were all the remains… There were almost 22,000 remains recovered from World Trade Center attacks and all these remains have been attempted many times in hopes of generating a DNA profile.

RB: And we're talking about small pieces of DNA that you would have to uncover, right? This is tedious, exhausting work, I would think?

MD: Yes, some of the remains are very small and they've been exposed to the harshest of conditions. Things that will destroy DNA such as fire and jet fuel and sunlight, water, mold, bacteria all these things destroy DNA and all those things are present at ground zero.

RB: So what is the technique now that you can use that you didn't have maybe 16 years ago because you were there 16 years ago to uncover people's DNA?

MD: Well, the philosophy is the same. You have bone material and this bone is the hardest of the biological materials to work with. It's very hard; you have to break the bone down into the cellular level. The more you can break it down, the more access you'll have to the DNA. So throughout the years, we've improved that part of the process by pulverizing the bone and creating almost a fine talc using the most modern techniques today used. Liquid nitrogen and ultrasonic ball bearings to create this powder and then chemicals are used to digest the cellular material to gain access to the DNA. So we've been able to improve the research here in New York City or brought in equipment and techniques from all over the world.

RB: What can you tell us about this man in particular?

MD: Well, we leave it to the families of the victims to state whether or not they would like the name released. So some family members want it private. Other family members do not even want to be notified. They would like for the remains to be sent just to the memorial. So it's whatever they wish, we're going to follow that.

RB: Does that surprise you that there's such different reactions to that?

MD: No. Everyone handles grief differently. Some of the World Trade Center victims we've identified over 300 pieces from a single person using DNA. So this is a lot of phone calls for some of these individuals going and visiting the families and let them know that we found another fragment of their loved one.

RB: This man was the 1,641st person to be positively identified of more than 2,700 killed. That's so surprising to me that that has happened and that that work continues. How long do you think it's going to be until you’ve finally identified everyone?

MD: We will never be able to finish this project. Half of the challenge for us is to generate DNA from the material recovered from Ground Zero. The other half of the challenge is getting DNA samples from family members. So toothbrushes and razors swabs, from moms and dads and brothers and sisters. We do not have those reference samples from all the victims. There's about 100 victims we will never be able to identify, either because they don't have family members or we were never able to get a sample to compare to the bone fragments.

RB: It seems to me it's rare that a scientist — someone like you — would be dealing directly with people you know and the families of people so much on something like this. How hard is that?

MD: As a forensic scientist, you're trained to be neutral; impartial to not get involved emotionally with your cases. With World Trade Center, it's actually an exception. I bring my team — the DNA scientists — to meet the families of the World Trade Center victims and we talk about the procedures and what we've done. And there's a lot of hugging and crying and thank yous and it gets very emotional. But I think it's good for the scientist to see that they're making a difference, and after all these years, family members still care. And they still want us to make identifications and I think that gives some energy to the team.

RB: You were there that day on 9/11 what do you remember what it was.

MD: I was. I was a part of a four person team sent by the medical examiner's office to go down. We’re not first responders. Our job was to stay out of the way, but we were to collect and preserve and start to get the evidence and start to make identifications. We were there before the South Tower collapsed. I was only down there about five minutes and that's when the south tower fell and our hopes of being able to work down there before anything like that happened. You know that was ended.

RB: You’re the only remaining member of the DNA Missing Persons Unit. What keeps you there?

MD: We use World Trade Center techniques on our everyday missing person cases, so we've been able to apply what we've learned and help New York City as well as around the world. We share our techniques with anyone for free, any country, anyone that needs help on their own mass fatality or missing persons investigations. And I think that just being able to make a difference like that you know really helps in your daily work that goes into what we do. But I love what I do. I love working for New York City in the medical examiner's office and I really found a great team and a great home.

RB: Is there a story of one family or one person that comes to mind when you think of this work that you've done and a difference that it made maybe?

MD: You hear a lot about closure. When you’re working directly with families on World Trade Center and other mass fatalities that New York City has been involved with and missing person cases and this is something that you talk a lot about. But I'm not sure seeing so much of this in working so much with the families. You know me personally, I'm not sure there is such a thing as closure. You're always going to miss that person — that loved one. Your life's going to be changed, you're going to go without that person. But if we can offer some answers, if we can give something to the family, some physical remains to give them some answers to what happened then that's a big part of our job.

RB: It's really incredible work. And I thank you for telling us about it.

MD: Thank you for having me on.

RB: OK. Bye bye.

MD: Take care.

RD: Mark Desire works at the Forensic Biology Lab, in New York's Office of the Chief Medical Examiner. He's the leader of the DNA Missing Persons unit that oversees the 9/11 World Trade Center identifications. We reached Mr. Desire in New York City.

[Music: Indie pop]

Kenya consultant

RD: Andreas Katsouris had every intention of being in Kenya's capital today, as voters headed to the polls in the country's hotly-contested and highly-charged presidential election. But other men had entirely different intentions for Mr. Katsouris, which is why, tonight, the Toronto man finds himself in the Netherlands rather than Nairobi. Mr. Katsouris believes the reason he was removed from the country is because he was working as a political consultant for Raila Odinga and the former prime minister's bid to replace Uhuru Kenyatta as president of Kenya. Whatever the reason, Mr. Katsouris’s exit from the country was nerve-wracking, if only briefly. Here's what he told CBC Radio's Matt Galloway, host of “Metro Morning” in Toronto earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREAS KATSOURIS: Friday night, I was on my way to dinner. I was leaving my apartment and, all of a sudden, a group of six and eventually about 12 plainclothes guys surrounded me and said they were police officers and that I needed to pack my bags and go with them.

MATT GALLOWAY: You saw your photo on one of their cell phones?

AK: I did. It seems that they wanted to identify me and so in the first moments when they approached me, I happened to notice that one of them was holding a cell phone with my picture on it.

MG: And so what happened then?

AK: Well, I was with a colleague. We asked them you know why they were detaining us and they wouldn't tell us. We asked if we could call a lawyer and I think they laughed. We asked to call the American and Canadian embassies and they denied that. They eventually took us to the international airport by a circuitous route, but they didn't tell us that at first. The worst part of this was sort of at the beginning when they were quite pushy and physically aggressive. Once we got in the car, they seemed to relax. Eventually, they told me we were going to the airport and we'd be leaving the country.

MG: You described this as 23 hours of boredom and an hour of fear. In that hour, how worried were you about what could happen to you?

AK: Yeah, I was pretty worried. As you probably know, there was quite a sensational killing in Kenya the week before. A senior official at the Election Commission, who was responsible for one of the most critical pieces of infrastructure for today’s election disappeared. And his body was found three days later. He’d been tortured with no explanation or serious investigation into what happened to him. So that really frightened everybody that you know there were some people who were you know interested in doing whatever it took to prevent Kenyans are having a fair vote today. So it certainly crossed my mind that I might be in that category. On the other hand, they asked me to pack my bags and they did have some kind of police identification. So at times, I convinced myself that maybe they were who they said they were.

RD: That was Andreas Katsouris of Toronto speaking with Matt Galloway, host of CBC Toronto's “Metro Morning” earlier today about his abrupt removal from Kenya, just before today's presidential election.

[Music: Ambient]

Six dates

Guests: Lisette Pylant, Alex Woody

RD: Six women in Washington, D.C. thought they were in for a typical first date last night. Until they realized that they were all meeting up at the same bar… with the same men. Lisette Pylant was the first day of the evening. Alex Woody’s date was a bit later. We reached them both in Washington, D.C.

RB: Lisette, at what point did you realize that you were one of six people on a date?

LISETTE PYLANT: So I realized that I was date number one when Kristin walked into the bar and Justin immediately introduced me as his friend. This was obviously not a friend situation and he clearly had overbooked himself.

RB: Alex, where were you in the date lineup?

ALEX WOODY: I was number five. So I showed up and texted him. I had gotten there early and he said that he was at his friend's house in the neighborhood, while he was really still on date four inside the bar. So I was standing outside waiting and there was a guy that came out of the bar and said to me can you believe it, there's a guy in there on his fourth date tonight? And I'm probably number five. So then he told me about the date number one through three across the street at the bar. So I went over there to meet them before actually going to meet the guy.

RB: So at this point, Lisette, you had found the four other women and you had gone to a different bar?

LP: Yes, date number before was still at the original bar. And me, Kristin, Raven and Alex we're now all across the street, hanging out together.

RB: And what was your role in this? Did you start warning the women? What did you do?

LP: Basically as soon as Kristen walked in and he introduced me as a friend, I just didn't want to be awkward for her since she clearly didn't know that like he had invited anybody else out that night. And so I just waited for him to walk away. And then as soon as he walked away I was like are you on a date with this guy? Because I think I'm also on a date with this guy and if we're both on dates with this guy, we should probably just go get drinks together.

RB: And she was OK with that, obviously?

LP: She was like that sounds great. This guy seems like a jerk. And then he came back and we all chatted a little bit more and then he got up again and walked to the bathroom maybe. And that's when Raven came in and we were like you're not here for Justin, are you? And she was like yeah, and we were like oh great, so are we. Do you want to come with us; we're going to go get drinks somewhere else. She just ordered a drink and so we all agreed we're going to sit there and finish our drinks and just kind of like make it awkward for him and then all just leave together.

RB: And so that had all happened before you walked in the door, Alex. So did you go in and meet Justin, even though you knew you were date number five?

AW: I did. So I actually sent him a photo because he didn't message me back, after he would have been 15 minutes late for the date. So I'd message him a picture of all four of us at the other bar and I said oh, I found your first three dates. You should come grab a drink with us. So I sent that and then I walked over to the bar and I waited for date number four to stand up. And when she stood up, I introduced myself to him and said hey Justin; I'm your date number five. And he looked at me and said oh, you're already cut. So I felt like I was on the next like MTV show. I got cut before I even started.

RB: And when he realized you had all caught on and that you were all now going to hang out together, what was his reaction?

LP: He didn't seem very concerned with any repercussions.

RB: Tell me, is it that bad in Washington D.C.? There's so few men…

LP: Honestly, you can't ghost people in this town. You just kind of have to assume that like if you don't know someone that someone else you know does because it was like three hours for me to be trending in Washington D.C.

RB: Because you did live tweet the whole event.

LP: Yeah, it's a small town to try to keep a secret in.

RB: So Alex, has this changed the way you're going to date?

AW: Definitely. I had actually just got out of a two year relationship, so I was trying to get back out there. My friends were like just go on a date. It'll be great. And then that's happened.

RB: And Lisette, how about you? What's your lesson here?

LP: If anything, it was entertaining and fun. So I don't really think that this will change how I go about dating people. Although, I'm not really sure I'm ever going to go on a date again in D.C.

[Sound: RB, AW and LP laugh about Justin]

RB: Well listen, there's a silver lining to all stories and I guess you two meeting each other — all six of you — meeting each other is the one here. Thanks ladies.

LP: Yes.

AW: Thank you.

RB: Good luck good luck out there.

RD: A silver lining indeed. That was Lisette Pylant and Alex Woody, two of the six women who had a date with the same man last night. They were in Washington, D.C. Now, the ladies may not have met their dream guy last night, but now they've got a group of new friends and brunch plans.

[Music: Hoedown]

Glen Campbell obit

RD: No more “star-spangled rodeo”: the rhinestone cowboy has ridden off into the sunset. The pop and country star Glen Campbell died today. He was 81. He was known for his string of hit songs, including “Gentle on My Mind’, “By the Time I Get to Phoenix” and “Rhinestone Cowboy”. Now, in his heyday, it wasn't just on the radio: he hosted a bunch of TV specials and his own variety show and starred as the Texas Ranger La Boeuf alongside John Wayne in the 1969 film “True Grit”. Glen Campbell was born to sharecropper parents in Arkansas. In the 1950s, he moved to Los Angeles, where his talent made him a highly sought after session guitarist. He played with the likes of Elvis Presley, The Beach Boys, Frank Sinatra and Merle Haggard. As a solo artist, he released more than 70 albums and won a number of Grammys, including in 2012, a Lifetime Achievement award. The year before that, he had revealed he was suffering from Alzheimer's disease. Now, in 1981, Mr. Campbell appeared on the CBC Radio program “The Entertainers”. Here's a part of what he had to say, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

GLEN CAMPBELL: When I'm not real on stage, I'm the first one to know it or to notice it probably. Because the minute something comes up that I know isn't me, I would stop it immediately. It's like my dad told me, he said Son, when you know something is wrong don't do it. And if you're doing something and you find out that it's wrong, stop it. Do things that are good and do things that are right. Honest, just and fair, you know? Be a man of integrity, you know? We all have to answer for our own self. My dad was a great philosopher in that. He taught me music, he taught me life and I guess what wisdom I have. He taught me that also. I was born and raised about six miles out of Delight, that was the closest town that was on the map, you know really I just out in the farm on a gravel road. And I didn't see an indoor toilet until I was like 9-years-old and I couldn't believe that people actually went in the house, you know? I saw the first electricity come in and it was just incredible all the things that went down when I was a kid, at the end of the Depression. And no electricity, no television. We had a battery radio. I heard music on the radio, you know? And that maybe lasted three months out of the year, you know? Daddy would buy one battery a year and you had to use it sparingly. You just didn’t leave it on all the time. You’d turn it on, gather around and listen to the radio, you know? And usually it was the Grand Ole Opry; we always listened to music show, not really ever story shows that was on radio at that time. And I guess there was a closeness there that is still with me. So I think that's what I seek with my life musically is in harmony with what I'm doing.

RD: That was Glen Campbell on the CBC program “The Entertainers” In 1981.

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August 8, 2017 episode transcript

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