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The AIH Transcript for July 27, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

HM: They were there to help her give birth to her child. They wanted to make sure she never had another. A Saskatoon woman responds after hospital staff are found to have pressured Indigenous mothers into accepting tubal ligation.

JD: Taking the law out of their own hands. B.C.’s privacy commissioner orders a group of anti-pedophile vigilantes to pull down videos of the people they've lured, or faced the legal consequences.

HM: Wave goodbye. A group of anti-immigration activists has pulled off their ship in the Mediterranean with a group of Sri Lankan men on board. Now, the activists stand accused of people smuggling.

JD: A talent for making friends. He was just a baby when bald eagles brought him home to eat. But a British Columbia Redhawk has made their nest his home. And now, scientists are waiting for him to head out on his own.

HM: Giving voice. You might remember her as Cindy Loo Who or as Rocky from Rocky and Bullwinkle. But June Foray’s colleagues are remembering the voice actor as the greatest there ever was.

JD: And… dinner is swerved. The story of a North Carolina shopper who was disappointed when the orange cheese he bought turned out to be butternut squash, prompts listeners to send in some culinary misadventures of their own. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that always dishes the dirt.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Sterilization review, C-Star arrests, micro-chipped employee

Sterilization review

Guest: Debbie Ironbow

JD: “Invisible, profiled and powerless.” A report out today says that is how Aboriginal women in Saskatoon felt when they were coerced into being sterilized. As you may have heard in the news, the women say that they were pressured into having tubal ligations after delivering babies. An independent review of the Saskatoon Health Region says the women faced racism at the hands of hospital staff, including doctors, social workers and nurses. Today's report suggests the women should be offered apologies and support. Debbie Ironbow says that she was pressured into having a tubal ligation after the birth of her child. We reached Ms. Ironbow in Saskatoon.

HM: Ms. Ironbow, the vice president of the Health Region apologized this afternoon to you and others who were coerced into being sterilized. What do you think of that apology?

DEBBIE IRONBOW: Well, I have to say first of all, I think that you know we as Indigenous people have all heard apologies before. And you know really there has been not very much action that's followed up. You know I didn't step forward with the group that were initially interviewed and I had my reasons for that. One of the biggest reasons was the amount of animosity and hatred that was coming from my community towards anyone who step forward with it.

HM: And you say from your community, who do you mean?

DI: Saskatoon itself. There were a lot of community members that you know had comments that were quite racially fired up and you know labeling the women. There was definitely a representation of this racism that exists in Saskatoon.

HM: Can you tell us about what happened to you? The experience you had when you went to have your child?

DI: Yes. I had four children all by cesarean. My last child, she was born in ’95. And prior to her birth, my obstetrician told me that you know I'd be extremely dangerous — possibly life threatening — if you had another child after this. And so he put the seed of fear in me, right? I did not respond to that. I didn't make any decisions regarding the suggested tubal ligation. And I was the young mom and you know the very thought of not having a family and not having the potential. What if I was married? What if I wanted another child? He put it in my head that it was extremely dangerous — possibly life threatening — and I found out later on — much later on — that was not true.

HM: So what happened at the hospital?

DI: I went into the hospital to have my youngest child and I was on the operating table when he leaned over and asked me. And I was already sedated, so you know I didn't really understand that they were going to do it permanently. Because I thought you know there was a way that they did that where it can be undone.

HM: So nobody had explained the whole procedure to you and the implications of it?

DI: No.

HM: And were you asked to sign anything?

DI: No.

HM: So they went ahead and they did the ligation.

DI: Yes.

HM: Why do you think you were treated this way?

DI: Because I was a single, Indigenous mother.

HM: What makes you say that?

DI: I think it was the comments mostly. You know you already have three children and this one and you're you know you're not married. These kinds of things were said to me.

HM: How has this affected your relationship with the medical profession?

DI: The medical profession… I think I'm more hyper-vigilant about those race issues. I listen for it more. I watch for it more. I have a good family doctor, but I've suffered some other health issues along the way. But you know as far as you know having anything to do with my femininity, I don't see a doctor here. I truthfully don't want them near me. I don't want them you know touching me in that aspect. I don't want them to know anything about me as a as a woman.

HM: The report asks that the Health Region reach out to each individual and make reparations. What would you like them to do?

DI: I would like them to look at their system and to really… and I mean not just the new employees. I'm talking about the old-school, 30-year-plus employees, management, supervisors. Everyone who has a role of teaching to be able to teach what we as Indigenous people have actually endured since colonization. There has to be a way to tug at the root of this here in Saskatchewan because there is a root and the root is based in racism.

HM: Do you think you and the other affected women should be given compensation?

DI: You know, that was another thing that that prevented me from getting involved with this. I didn't want it to become about that. To me, the funds could be better used to educate. It could be better used towards you know bringing people together from the Indigenous community and from the medical profession — from the Health Region. Bring these people together you know more often. Get these people at the table. Get them representing us.

HM: Does the acknowledgement in any way that what happened to you was wrong and racist does that provide you with some comfort going forward?

DI: The fact that it's out there? Yes, absolutely. You know that does tell me that we're starting to rip open the wounds, right. We're starting to dig at that festering underneath and that that's important. You know, it's going to hurt and it hurts me right now to even speak about it because I carried that inner shame of that conversation and the conversation on that table inside of me for you know a very long time. And you know there's a shame we carry as women. You know, are we not good enough to be mothers? It affected my perception of parenting.

HM: Well, I know, as you say, it's been a difficult conversation for you to have. So thank you very much for agreeing to talk to us today.

DI: You're welcome.

HM: All right. You take care. Goodbye.

DI: Yes. Thank you

JD: Debbie Ironbow was coerced into having a tubal ligation at a hospital in Saskatoon. We reached her in Saskatoon.

[Music: Guitar]

C-Star arrests

Guest: Joe Mulhall

C-Star has not been on the Mediterranean for very long. But it has already hit some very choppy waters. C-Star is a boat. It is chartered by the “Defend Europe” campaign. The “Defend Europe” campaign is an anti-migrant activist group that has vowed to disrupt the efforts of NGO ships rescuing migrants in the Mediterranean. Well this week, the ship's captain and crew were detained on suspicion of people smuggling in northern Cyprus. Twenty Sri Lankan men were discovered on board the C-Star. “Defend Europe” said that these men were, quote, “apprentice sailors.” But local NGOs believe them to be migrants heading for Europe. Joe Mulhall has been following C-Star’s journey since day one. He is a senior researcher with Hope Not Hate, a UK-based anti-racism organization. We reached Mr. Mulhall in London.

HM: Mr. Mulhall, the C-Star set sail this month with these campaigners vowing to keep watch over NGOs and, to quote them directly, “Defend Europe from migrants.” So far how is that effort going?

JOE MULHALL: Well, they started the project in around mid-May, when they originally had a very small boat. They tried to stop an NGO ship leading reporting Catania in Sicily. And since then, the project has had kind of peaks and troughs really. They’ve raised this huge amount of money — well over a hundred thousand pounds — and they've managed to get themselves a ship, which by chance is a relatively large ship called the C-Star, which was out of Djibouti in East Africa. And since then it's kind of been up and down really. I mean they were hoping to bring Catania some weeks ago to begin their formal mission. But since then, it's been blocked and stopped. It was held in the Suez Canal for a week. It's just been arrested again for a period in northern Cyprus and it just seems to be now leading the port in northern Cyprus and it claims to be heading towards Catania to start its mission.

HM: How is the ship ended up in Cyprus?

JM: Sounds like the ship has some problems regarding fuel and it needs supplies and headed up to northern Cyprus. The Turkish side of Cyprus rather than the E.U. side of Cyprus because it was fearful of being allowed to get into any port.

HM: Now while in Cyprus, the captain and crew were arrested. Why?

JM: Well, I mean the details of this is somewhat fuzzy. But it seems unbeknownst to most people the boat had about 20-21 Sri Lankans on board as well as the crew that were running the ship. And it seems it's possible that the Sri Lankans didn't have the correct papers or that they may have been even hoping to claim asylum. So when the boat reached the port, the captain was arrested. The owner of the ship, who is a Swedish man based in Wales here in the UK, and he was also arrested, the crew were arrested and some of the Sri Lankans who were on board seemed to be claiming asylum currently in Turkey.

HM: There's some confusion or at least some dispute over that the Sri Lankans. “Defend Europe” has said the 20 were “apprentice sailors”. What are the Sri Lankan men themselves said about who they are?

JM: Yeah, I mean I think we have to take anything that Defend Europe” has been saying with a real pinch of salt here. It seems very unlikely that this story they're putting out about kind of apprentice sailors is true. I mean there's been reports coming out saying that some of the Sri Lankans on board claimed that they had spent ten-thousand euros to try and get to Europe on the ship. And it seems that some of the arrests were based on possible people trafficking, which of course would be ironic considering the very nature of the mission was based on attempting to stop people trafficking in the first place.

HM: How do you think it is if they were migrants that they ended up on board the C-Star?

JM: Well, it is a difficult question. No one has concrete evidence on this. I mean there's a number of places they could have joined the boat. They could have been on the boat for a long time starting in Djibouti. Or it could have been in one of the ports. It could have been Suez. It could have been when it came out with Suez. So no one is sure at the moment when the people got in the boat? And how long they’ve been there?

HM: Well, “Defend Europe”'s allegation, or one of them anyway, is that NGOs somehow lured these men with promises and money to claim refugee status. Do you know of any NGOs that operate that way?

JM: Absolutely not. I mean it's worth remembering here that “Defend Europe” is not painting themselves as some sort of search rescue mission. “Defend Europe” is a far-right organization that's created by a number of well-known far-right activists from the European far-right movement called the Identitarian Movement. They've engaged in things like occupying mosques. So when they kind of put forth these claims it's always worth remembering that they're coming from a highly prejudiced position. They put forth these myths around the NGOs being human traffickers, et cetera. It's really worth not listening to what they're saying on this and actually wait until we have hard evidence. Anything they're saying on this we always need to take with a pinch of salt and remember what their political drive behind it is.

HM: Now, you mentioned that they have managed to raise more than a-hundred-thousand dollars to crowd-fund this ship and their cause. They obviously do have enough support that they were able to get that money. What does that tell you?

JM: This project, “Defend Europe”, has kind of caught the excitement of the international far-right. That ranges from around the world both in Europe, but also in North America. And a lot of this money and people who've been supporting it come from the most extreme elements of the international far-right. I mean we're talking people like David Duke, who was the former leader of the Ku Klux Klan in America. We talk about the largest neo-Nazi Web site in the world the Daily Stormer. They were putting out things about fundraising. So if we’re kind of looking for what does it say? It actually just shows us how international the contemporary far-right is at the moment.

HM: one of the people supporting the ship is the Canadian alt-right journalist Lauren Sothern. She had a crowd-funding site and your group helped to get that shut down. Many are going to ask why she shouldn't be able to raise money for her cause just like anyone else?

JM: For us, this is a matter of kind of freedom of speech. Lauren Sothern has the right to say whatever she wants. But a private company also has the right to turn around and say that they won't help her raise money. For us, this was about defunding a project that we genuinely feared could cause the loss of life in the Mediterranean.

HM: Now that the ship has set sail again, do you have a sense of how they actually plan to monitor or block the NGOs currently operating in the Mediterranean?

JM: Yeah. I mean again this is kind of up in the air. The ship has just left its port some hours ago. In terms of its mission has changed over time. Originally, they stated very clearly that they would block NGO ships. And as the public pressure mounted against that, they’ve started say that they won't block ships explicitly. But rather what they'll do is monitor the NGO ships by filming them, et cetera. But they’d also possibly block them returning to Europe with refugees. Or alternatively, if they rescue refugees themselves, they would return them to North Africa and Libya rather than Europe. The problem here is they could well break a number of maritime laws and, of course, human rights laws. Libya is not classed as a safe state by international bodies. It's not a signatory to the 1951 convention on refugees. If they take people out of the sea and return them to North Africa they could well be breaking human rights legislation. And this is why we think it's so important this boat is stopped. Everything they've said from when they first that they would block ships, which would break maritime law. To now what they're saying they’d do with refugees all indicates that what they're planning would well be illegal. And beyond that, there's the issue of listen to the NGOs. Listen to these NGOs that are in the Mediterranean every day saving lives. And the last thing they need is a group of far-right activists in their 20s with a ship, floating around the Mediterranean and getting in the way of saving lives.

HM: Mr. Mulhall, thank you very much for talking to us.

JM: No problem, thank you very much.

HM: All right. Bye bye.

JM: Bye.

JD: Joe Mulhall is a senior researcher with Hope Not Hate, a UK-based anti-racism organization. We reached him in London. And we have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient rock]

Micro-chipped employee

Guest: Melissa Timmins

JD: A Wisconsin company is holding a “chip party” for its employees next week. And before you think yummie, I love ruffles! Three Square Market is not going to be handing out bags of salt and vinegar. It's going to be sticking microchips in people's hands. The implants will store information that will allow staff to open doors and pay for food in the company break room. Melissa Timmins works for Three Square Market and she will be at Tuesday's chip party. We reached Ms. Timmins in River Falls, Wisconsin.

HM: So Ms. Timmins, your boss wants to inject a chip into your hand?

MELISSA TIMMINS: That's being offered with our company right now, correct.

HM: Are there not easier ways to pay for snacks?

MT: Oh yeah. Well, I mean it's the convenience. That's one of the options that you could do with it, yes.

HM: What's the procedure?

MT: It's just a tiny… it’s about the size of a piece of rice and there's a little syringe that pops it in.

HM: And do you have to go to an outside clinic to get this done? Or is it a workplace thing?

MT: No, we're going to be here. We have somebody coming in to do it that’s certified and licensed to do it.

HM: Will there be like coffee and cookies at the same time?

MT: We're actually having a chip party, so we're having chips and salsa.

HM: OK. Well that's appropriate. You sound like you're committed to doing this.

MT: Actually, I'm still on the fence right now.

HM: OK. What are you weighing?

MT: I mean to the one side of me, it's exciting; we're the first ones in the U.S., so you kind of want to have that you could say that you were the first to do this. The other part of me, I'm just a little nervous about you know putting something into my body like that. So that's just a couple of the concerns as far as you know if there's infection or anything like that. So I'm doing my research and finding more out about it. But I do think it's pretty cool. I'm excited for our company that we're doing this. And I did find out we have the options of if we want to do a bracelet or a ring, which I would for sure do that in a second. So I'm just kind of still hesitating if I want to actually get it you know put into my hand.

HM: Right. Have you been told if it hurts?

MT: They said it takes like two seconds, so I'm sure it's just like getting a shot.

HM: And it goes exactly where in your hand?

MT: Between the thumb and forefinger.

HM: Now, you know why is your boss so keen about this?

MT: We're a technology company, so we're always looking for you know what can we do to expand our services and our technology. And the presidents of international sales was over in Sweden and was actually working with a company out there and found out about these and actually met with the company that does it. And they started talking and he was actually interested in getting chipped that day. But unfortunately, the guy that does it wasn’t around. So he brought it back to our boss and went from there.

HM: So what is the point? I mentioned buying snacks. What is the idea of the microchip? What can you do with it?

MT: So as far as in our office, we can also enter into the building. You can use it to log on to your computer. Any services like the copy machine or things like that. You can just put your hand up there and log in. Eventually, you can log into your phone, you could get into your car. So I mean there's a lot of you know things even outside of the office and that's what I'm finding out more about, which you know makes me even more excited is the different services that you can use it for. Not just in our building alone.

HM: You know I have to say this reminds me an awful lot of science fiction or horror movies were you know data is in there, people get followed, maybe somebody hand gets cut off to open a door, that sort of thing. Doesn't it worry you?

MT: No, that part doesn’t at all.

HM: Why?

MT: No, there's no GPS tracker on it, so they can't track us. I'm more worried about the access they get through my phone than what they're going to get from this. Because, like I said, there's no GPS tracker. And people are so worried about that part of it, but yet you know, like I said, there's a lot more ways through the phone that you can be tracked.

HM: How do you know there's no GPS tracker or other information about you that would be on that chip?

MT: Because this particular chip does not have a GPS tracker with it. I actually asked about that because my kids actually want to be chipped. And I would like a GPS tracker for them and it's a whole different procedure and it's a different chip.

HM: Isn't it possible though that somehow it could get hacked and then people would be able to get information about you, your banking, things that might be stored in your phone?

MT: No. It is very secure. Everything is encrypted. So I mean you know it's a lot safer than carrying around a credit card that can be stolen or any other information. It's very secure.

HM: You mentioned wanting to have your kids’ micro-chipped so you can find out where they are. How do they feel about that?

MT: Oh, they're thrilled. They actually want to do it.

HM: Really?

MT: They're teenagers, so they think this technology is awesome. And I brought up the fact that I would want to have a GPS tracker. And at first, my daughter was a little hesitant and then she's like that's fine because I said what if somebody ever took you? Then I could find you.

HM: What about your colleagues? Anybody worried that to work with?

MT: I haven't talked to anybody that's really worried. Most of the people that are a little hesitant it's kind of the same thing as myself. They're more worried about you know the fact that it's actually being implanted in our hand. They're not worried about the tracking or anything like that.

HM: So is this something that your company then would plan to sell and promote to other companies?

MT: We've had several companies that have expressed interest to us already, yes. That they are looking for it for their companies and for their employees. And then moving on, you know we've had a hospital that contacted us that said that this would be great for patients because patients are constantly forgetting which medications they use or the names of their medications and if they get it wrong, it could be deadly if they get the wrong one. And so they're definitely interested in it down the road for that.

HM: Are you sure you just don't want to keep using a pass card?

MT: Like I said, I'm still on the fence. I can still use my credit card, I can use my thumbprint, I can you know enter in my code. There's lots of ways still that I can buy my snacks, but I think it’s cool and I’m excited for the technology side of it.

HM: And when's the chip party?

MT: August 1st.

HM: OK. Well, good luck with your decision. And I hope it all works out for you.

MT: Thank you.

HM: OK.

MT: Have a good day.

HM: Bye bye.

JD: Melissa Timmins works at Three Square Market. She's going to be going to that chip party. We reached here River Falls, Wisconsin. And we do have more on this story on our website, which is as always, www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Piano that is slow]

Food mix ups

JD: If you were listening to this program last night, you would have heard our story about the drama that transpired at a North Carolina grocery store. It was the tale — the epic tale — of a customer who mistook butternut squash for cheese. And this confusion led to a long and heated argument with staff, which ended with the man leaving — squash in hand. And then afterwards, we asked you for your own food mix up stories. You cooked up a feast.

HM: On Twitter, M. Bird Loreto wrote: “Exactly as Jeff asked for food mix ups, I realized the zucchini I just bought for dinner were, in fact, three cucumbers.”

JD: It’s happened to the best of us. Allan Pulga tweeted, quote, “I once bought ground horsemeat in Quebec thinking it was beef. And have bought parsley thinking it was cilantro at least twice. Gotta read those twist-tie labels!”

HM: Edmonton's Steph Gazzola wrote to us with this, via email: “My most memorable food mistake happened when I was making perogies for my fiancé. In our family, we love a little paprika on our perogies… and by little, I mean a lot. So I went to town covering our progress and paprika as I fried them. Or at least I thought I did. When we sat down to dinner, I soon realized that I had covered them in a different, more pungent red spice: nutmeg.”

JD: Red nutmeg? That does sound confusing. And then John in Manitoba wrote to us with this food mix up that happened on a road trip. John writes, quote, “I was once riding my motorcycle north of Winnipeg. It was hot and I was hungry. There was a sign that read peaches and cream. So I pulled in and asked for some. I very quickly found out it is a variety of corn. It was super embarrassing.”

HM: This story also got people here at As It Happens talking about their own food mix ups. Years ago, my aunt made a cheesecake and accidentally did so with onion-flavored cream cheese. One of our producers, Imogen, told us about her high school friend who used to help himself to whatever he could find at her parent's house, including an organic dog biscuit, thinking it was a cookie.

JD: They're not bad though.

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Part 2: Creep Catcher, hawk-eagle update

Creep Catcher

Guest: Drew McArthur

JD: Creep Catcher is being told to stop it. Creep Catcher is a vigilante group, its members lure people they suspect of being pedophiles and then they post the results on social media. And this week, Creep Catcher in Surrey, British Columbia was found to have violated the privacy rights of some of its targets. It was ordered to remove videos of them that it had posted online. But the head of Surrey Creep Catcher is adamantly refusing to comply. Drew McArthur is British Columbia's acting information and privacy commissioner. We reached him in Victoria.

HM: Mr. McArthur, why did you determine that Creep Catcher is violating people's privacy?

DREW MCARTHUR: Well, when an organization collects, uses, or discloses our personal information they must either have authority under our act or receive consent from the individual. And in this case, they had neither.

HM: So they were acting of their own volition and there’s nothing that allowed them to do that?

DM: There's no exception in our act that allowed them to collect without authority or without consent. So what an organization must do is identify, prior to the collection of personal information, the purposes for which they're going to use it. And they did not do that in this instance.

HM: Would they have to inform the person that they were going to try and contact that they were doing this as well?

DM: Well, there's a number of provisions in our act, but primarily, this organization in this investigation was using deceptive and misleading techniques to capture personal information. And any consent given under those circumstances is nullified.

HM: Now, there were two cases that you considered. You've given as sort of a brief overview there. Could you describe it a bit more specifically?

DM: What was occurring in this investigation in these two particular complainants were the solicitation of online chats with them with purported, initially, adult individuals and then that online chat changed to potentially minors and then an opportunity to meet. And when the meeting occurred, video evidence was collected and it was posted online without consent for collection and disclosure of that information.

HM: So these were basically sting operations, people deciding on their own that they were going to try and catch people who might be seen as being pedophiles or might be at least pursuing some kind of relationship with people who were under age?

DM: This organization’s purpose is purported to catch those kinds of individuals. And for that purpose they set up these sting operations, trying to lure people into a meeting and then videotape that meeting and disclose that online.

HM: What do the people who were lured say about how this has affected their lives?

DM: Well, the complainants have said that it has been very detrimental to their lives. It affected their employment, their life, their reputation, harm to their reputation as well. And whether or not these were suspected criminals or had malicious intent, has nothing to do with the findings in this order. The findings would be the same no matter the intent. It's the inappropriate collection use and disclosure of personal information by an organization.

HM: Now, you have ordered the group to take its material about these two men off the Internet and to destroy it. Ryan LaForge of the Surry, B.C. chapter of Creep Catcher has responded to your ruling with some very strong words, basically saying that he and his organization do not plan to comply. Have you checked to see if the videos are still up?

DM: I have not confirmed whether or not the videos are up. The organization has until September the 6th to remove those videos. At that time, we'll follow up to determine whether they've complied with our order. And if they haven't, then we would forward our investigative information to the appropriate authorities.

HM: What potential impact could that have? What could those authorities then do?

DM: Well, essentially it's an offense under our act. There are fines for an organisation — up to $100,000 in our act — for not following or complying with an order. That's never happened in the history of our act since 2003. So we're hoping that the organisation realizes that it's appropriate to follow the order. But if not, then we'll take the appropriate actions and notify the authorities, which would be either the provincial police or the Attorney-General.

HM: Creep Catcher operates, as you know, in other parts of the country as well. Have any other jurisdictions taken steps like this to try to stop them?

DM: I'm not aware of any other jurisdictions processing complaints for Creep Catcher.

HM: Have you had any inquiries as to what you're doing?

DM: I haven't had any inquiries from privacy commissioners across the country in relation to this particular investigation.

HM: Now, of course, the people doing this feel that they're performing a service to the community. They feel that you know the two complainants should be investigated for their behavior. What do you say to that?

DM: Well, there are appropriate procedures and actions to be taken if you suspect someone is violating the law. A referral to the authorities — the proper authorities — who have lawful authority to investigate is the appropriate route to take. But to randomly collect, use and disclose people's information without the engagement of proper authority for investigation is inappropriate and it's an inappropriate use of a citizen's personal information.

HM: Have you seen any cases like this before of any sort in which people have sort of undertaken this kind of vigilante action?

DM: In my experience, this is the first kind of case involving the so-called “vigilante action”.

HM: Your advice to anybody who might think that this is a good idea and that they're doing community service here?

DM: Like any organization, there's a number of laws that they have to comply with. And certainly as it relates to the collection of personal information, they should probably get some advice in terms of are process appropriate and reasonable in the circumstances? We're here to uphold the privacy legislation that is enforced in B.C. And, according to that, every organization that does collect, use or disclose personal information has to do it in accordance with our act. And if they're not doing it that way then they can come under sanctions.

HM: Do the two complainants have any further recourse?

DM: The complainants could, if they wish, initiate personal action or civil action in court, should they want to proceed with that. And the fact that we have an order outstanding gives them a little leverage in the ability to undertake a civil action should they wish to make that. But that would be on their own volition and not something we would be involved with.

HM: No, all right. Mr. McAuthur, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

DM: Thank you very much, Helen.

HM: Bye bye.

DM: Bye bye.

JD: Drew McArthur is British Columbia's acting information and privacy commissioner. We reached him in Victoria.

[Music: Ambient]

For The Record: Anthony Scaramucci

JD: Things at the White House… some things have the feel of a… well a not-so-civil war. And today, President Trump's new communications director, Anthony Scaramucci, fired another salvo. The conflict is between Mr. Scaramucci and the White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus. It concerns a series of recent leaks. And last night, Mr. Scaramucci tweeted about going to the FBI over alleged leaks of his financial disclosure information. That is actually information that was publicly available. In any case, he tagged Mr. Priebus in that tweet. And this morning, Mr. Scaramucci joined CNN's Chris Cuomo to explain.

SOUNDCLIP

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI: It’s absolutely, completely and totally reprehensible. And, as you know, from the Italian expression the fish stinks from the head down. But I can tell you two fish that don't stink, OK? And that's me and the president. I don't like the activity that's going on in the White House. I don't like what they’re doing to my friend. I don't like what they’re doing to the president of the United States or their fellow colleagues in the West Wing. Now, if you want to talk about the staff, we have had odds. We have had differences. When I said we were brothers from the podium that's because we're rough. Some brothers are like Kane and Abel; other brothers can fight with each other and get along. I don't know if this is repairable or not? That will be up to the president, but he's the Chief-of-Staff. He's responsible for understanding and uncovering and helping me do that inside the White House, which is why I put that tweet out last night. When the journalists who actually know who the leakers are like Ryan Lizza, they know the leakers. Jonathan Swain, these guys know who the leakers are. I respect them for not telling me because I understand and respect journalistic integrity. However, when I put out a tweet and I put Reince’s name in the tweet, they're all making the assumption that it's him because journalists know who the leakers are. So if Reince wants to explain that he's not a leaker let him do that.

CHRIS CUOMO: Reince Priebus’s name is connected to this. Every time it comes out in the last 24 hours. Do you have concerns about him?

AS: Reince Priebus can speak to you about that. And he can address that himself.

CC: All right. We will ask him.

AS: People know my history between me and Reince, OK?

CC: Yes.

AS: I can speak for my own actions. He's going to need to his own actions.

JD: For the record, that was U.S. President Donald Trump's new communications director, Anthony Scaramucci, speaking earlier today with CNN's Chris Cuomo.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Hawk-eagle update

Guest: David Hancock

JD: Strictly speaking, he should have been the next meal for a family of eagles. But today, he is alive and thriving and defying the odds. Back in June, we told you about a young red-tailed hawk in Sydney, British Columbia. As a baby, bald eagles took this little hawk into their nest. Those Eagles raised him as their own. Now, at the time, wildlife experts did not think that this hawk would make it in a nest full of his natural predators. But David Hancock has been watching this young hawk grow. Mr. Hancock is the director of the Hancock Wildlife Foundation. We reached him in Surrey, British Columbia.

HM: Mr. Hancock, the last time we checked in on this little bird he was just a hatchling. What's he up to now?

DAVID HANCOCK: Our little hawk, who has many different names depending on who you are, from calling him Stephen after Stephen Colbert. To being called Little Big Bird…

HM: I heard Spunky.

DH: He is doing incredibly well. He not only grew full size in the nest, but a little over two weeks ago, he started to leave the nest called fledging. And he has been out exploring the neighborhood now for over two weeks. And we've watched him directly go over a mile away and coming back again. And in preparation for this call, I was talking to the lady who lives below it. And as I was talking to her, he was running across her roof and he has very heavy feet for a little bird. And she can hear him pumping on her roof.

HM: So he’s more than mobile.

DH: Yes, he’s back again this morning. So the point is he's doing incredibly well, contrary to all the other biologists who work with the Hancock Wildlife Foundation. We all had pretty bleak hopes for him. He grew to a full, huge, dynamic size of nearly two pounds. And his siblings — his eaglet siblings — are 12 pounds. How he has survived? The odds were not great.

HM: Right. How are they getting along now?

DH: They're all flying. The three eaglets are now flying. He's now flying. There in the stage where they're each exploring more and more distance from the nest every day. So their interactions directly with each other is more dispersed. When they come back toward the nest, this little character last Saturday, when I was there, I was watching him and mom had brought in part of a flounder — just a small flounder — to the nest. The three eaglets were on the nest. Hawklet came in behind them, ran literally underneath them after they'd been eating for about five minutes, tearing what was left of this little flounder apart. He grabbed the flounder, took off from the nest with it and, of course, even anything a few ounces is still a lot of weight for a little two-pound bird. So his carrying with a fairly sharp descent and he got away with stealing their food, which is kind of brave and courageous.

HM: And in a way being small made him more agile and able to get in there and grab it.

DH: Yes. I don't know that he could get away with this with another eagle, but he's got away with this for now what… six weeks or something.

HM: now, in terms of food. You know I'm wondering how he gets his share generally and about the quality of the food too. I mean would a hawklet normally eat flounder?

DH: No, definitely not. Hawklets would normally never get fish. He has been reared on fish. But the neighborhood has also acquired a number of dead mice, road-killed squirrels and so on and put them out where he has access to them. And he has come down and taken these things.

HM: Given that he's actually willing to try these foods, do you think he realizes there's somewhere instinctively he realizes he's not an eagle?

DH: The instinct is one thing, learned behaviors are others. And I think that's part of the instinctive behaviors is how he would normally be grappling with small mammals, which is most of the food a red-tailed hawk would eat. They eat voles and mice, sometimes snakes, but small bunnies and even small birds that are incapacitated. But red tails, like eagles, also readily exploit road-kill. So finding a dead squirrel is kind of built into his psyche. And that's a good thing because road-kill is going to be important. It is what these birds partially do, but ultimately, he has to learn how to catch voles and mice. But being able to scavenge we hope we'll build this bridge between being dependent on a parent, in this case an eagle parent, and being able to forage on his own.

HM: I have to ask you what other risks are there to this little guy given that he hasn't learned from hawks? What other things might pose dangers to him?

DH: The big danger because he was raised by Eagles, now the big challenges are he's got to not get too friendly with other eagles. And fortunately for him, most of the other Eagles are just leaving the country. They're all gone to Alaska or going in the next 10 days. So he won't encounter a lot of eagles. Can he get along with fellow red tails? He's over on the edge of the Victoria airport at the moment, so he's able to see where food and he's able to see other red tails that are there right now. So will he get them and will he catch on to that? The risks are: does he get hit by a car? The other risk, of course, is does he encounter somebody? Because he goes into birdbaths to have a bath beside people’s bird feeders. Is he going to find a hostile birder who doesn't like hawks? You know there are risks at every level of life. I doubt the eagle is going to be a problem, getting too close to one. Because he's already seen if he's getting food from nearby his big sibling sisters — the eagles — he's got to work pretty fast and quick food is limited. Now they're all very, very hungry. They're not regularly being fed very much by the parents. They didn't drop their weight because they had a-thousand-miles to go to their first real feed, which is in northern B.C. or Alaska where all the rivers are already lined with dead salmon. And that's what the eagles biology is geared. Red-tailed hawks, unfortunately, don't. And so his big challenge is adapting to road-kill, adapting to field mice and so on.

HM: I'm going to have to stop you there. I wish I had more time because I could listen to you talk about these birds for ages. We've been concerned about this little guy.

DH: Me too.

HM: And it’s really nice to know that he survived.

DH: I've been over there five times and I'm going again tomorrow. He's an intriguing wonder. But this guy has been pulling off more hopeful with every day he survives.

HM: Well, give him our best.

DH: Yeah I will. Thanks for the interest and thanks for letting the people know about him.

HM: Thank you, Mr. Hancock. All the best, bye.

DH: Bye bye.

JD: David Hancock is the director of the Hancock Wildlife Foundation. We reached him in Surrey, British Columbia. And you can see some videos of the hawk on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Country]

June Foray obit

June Foray was the woman of a thousand voices. She played Cindy Lou Who, who was no more than two. She played Granny, the little old lady who owned Tweety Bird and Sylvester. She was Rocky in Rocky and Bullwinkle. She was Natasha in that cartoon as well. She was Bugs Bunny, Cinderella and Who Killed Roger Rabbit. She was a Smurf. June Foray died yesterday. She was ninety-nine-years-old. Beyond her work as a voice actor, Ms. Foray is being remembered as the inspiration for the Annie Awards, which honor excellence in animation. She was also instrumental in the creation of the animated feature category at the Oscars. Back in the year 2000, Ms. Foray was all set to star in the feature film remake of Rocky and Bullwinkle, when she spoke to As It Happens guest host Mary Hynes. Here's part of that conversation, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

MARY HYNES: Let's start with Rocky the flying squirrel…

JUNE FORAY: [Speaking: As Rocky] let's do that.

MH: You know I hear — I'm sure I hear — traces of Rocky in your voice? Is he not a great stretch for you to do?

JF: No, it's not too bad. It's really easy. [Speaking: As Natasha] Of course Natasha’s very easy too, darling.

HM: You were Natasha as well in the TV series, were you not?

JF: Yes. And also Fenwick, who is Dudley Do-Right’s girlfriend. And fairy godmothers you know and the witches and the princesses you know in the fractured fairy tales.

MH And Witch Hazel, were you not Witch Hazel as well on Bugs Bunny.

JF: [Speaking: As Witch Hazel] Yes, you remind me of Paul, my pet tarantula.

HM: You do evil so well. So many of us remember that terrifying Twilight Zone episode with that doll, Talking Tina. I didn't realize that was you and you have given all of us nightmares all through the years. Do you remember Tina?

JF: [Speaking: As Talking Tina] my name’s Talking Tina, and I’m going to kill you.

MH: I think many of us won't be sleeping tonight after hearing that little snippet. Ms. Foray, I must tell you you are responsible for my favorite line in the history of television.

JF: What is that?

MH: Cindy Lou Who. How the Grinch Stole Christmas.

JF: Oh, Cindy Loo, yes.

MH: How old were you when you did Cindy Lou? Because I honestly thought you were three-and-a-half. I gather you weren't?

JF: I think I'm three-and-a-half mentally.

HM: What was that? That was I guess 60s, right?

JF: I think it was like ’68 or something like that?

HM: Would you do Cindy-Lou for us?

JF: [Speaking: As Cindy Loo Who] why did you steal our Christmas tree, Santa? Why?

HM: Ohhhh

JF: I know! she didn't have much to say, but she was very sympathetic, poor little girl.

HM: But it was beautiful. Do you have a soft spot for her, as so many of us do?

JF: Well of course, I have a soft spot in my head I think for all the characters I do because I'm part of everyone.

JD: That was the great, great voice actress June Foray speaking with As It Happens in the year 2000. Ms. Foray died yesterday. She was ninety-nine-years-old. And to hear some more of Ms. Foray’s magic from over the years go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folk]

Vibrator turtles

JD: Science's quest for knowledge truly knows no bounds, nor boundaries one could say. Just ask the western chicken turtle. You know, actually on second thought, wait, OK? At least wait until he's done with that vibrator. Perhaps I should explain that? Back in 2014, a herpetologist at Missouri State University was struggling with an age-old turtle problem. See it's hard to tell the turtle girls from the turtle boys. It seems that they keep their tell-tale bits tightly inside a well-defended orifice called a cloaca. And while it's possible to poke a camera into a cloaca, it's not very nice to do that. So instead of probing into the turtles, our scientist friend wondered if he could coax some of them out of their shells, so to speak. It had been tried before. Now, some brave soul had discovered that if you bounce snapping turtles up and down, the males will eventually pop their business out. And the male Cotinga River toadheat turtle tends to respond when his little limbs are restrained. And so the light bulb on our scientist’s bedside table went off. And he and his team headed into the swamps of Oklahoma with a stack of… $10 vibrators. And, sure enough, the experiment worked. To quote the paper that has now been published, quote, “It was really just a matter of moving the vibrator around and trying different techniques.” Unquote. And over time, they found that the most effective approach involved, quote, “moving the vibrator and slow, small circles on the abdominal and pectoral plates.” No surprise there. But before anything, or anyone, goes grabbing their own pleasure object in preparation for a wetland stroll. Scientists are asking the public to leave the turtle stimulation to the pros. And if you are curious —really curious — just find out more by looking up the paper. It is in the latest issue of “Acta Herpetologica” and it is called, quote, “Good Vibrations: a novel method for sexing turtles.”

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July 17, 2017 Episode Transcript

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