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The Current Transcript for July 17, 2017

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: It looked like snow, like in the middle of July, like ashes were floating everywhere. The sky was dark. It looked like hell was raining over us.

VOICE 2: You know what material things doesn't matter. Those can be replaced. Life can't be. I can't wait to go home and I don't know when that will be. I can't wait, because I just love home. I'm a little home buddy with my flowers and my dog [sobs] and I want to go home. I is not going to happen, not for a while yet.

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LAURA LYNCH: Those who have lived through fire, who have fled their homes, know the look. The faces filled with fatigue, sadness and uncertainty. You can hear it in their voices too. There have been wildfires in this part of British Columbia before but never like this; so early, so widespread and so intense. This morning we're live in Kamloops, a city that has become a refuge for thousands of people who had nowhere else to go when they were told to leave. We'll hear the stories of those who left and of one mayor who stayed behind to watch over his city. And we'll speak to a science writer who believes the B.C. wildfires were inevitable along with the destruction and destruction they've caused. I'm Laura Lynch and this is a special edition of The Current.

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'I want to go home': B.C. wildfire evacuees in Kamloops wait for news of home

Guest: Patricia Butler, Samantha, Lynda Bell, Walt Cobb

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VOICE 1: Well, right now, are we renewing?

VOICE 2: You are renewing. We register, you are extending?

VOICE 1: Yes.

VOICE 2: Okay, two households?

VOICE 3: Different people, yes.

LL: It's early morning at the Kamloops hockey arena, that overnight has become an evacuation center. The air looks hazy and smells of smoke. The line of people waiting to register snakes around the building, moving slowly as volunteers do their best to support those who have been driving all night to get here to get out of harm's way. Patricia Butler stands out in this crowd. She's wearing a rather fancy white hat festooned with a flower suggesting a celebration. In fact she and her husband Ian were celebrating when they got the call to get out and fast. What were you doing last night when the order came to leave?

PATRICIA BUTLER: Eating birthday cake because it was my birthday. Birthday cake and a strawberry and then my mother pulled in and said it's time to go, we're heading so. I went outside and then I looked around and then I knew. There was fires behind us, over, opposite of us. They were all around us. In every direction you look at you're like woo. And that wind picked up. So, that's what caused us to be where we are now.

LL: Not a very nice birthday present.

PATRICIA BUTLER: No.

LL: Take me back to the day when you first got the evacuation alert. What happened that day?

PATRICIA BUTLER: I didn't take it seriously, for some reason. I just. Went on about my morning and day, and as the smoke started thickening and the fires started popping in around our area upon the mountaintop, then I knew we had to deal with our situation and start packing.

LL: So when you… What do you do if you're in that situation and you have to decide what to take, how did you decide?

PATRICIA BUTLER: That was easy. Pictures, all that, perfume, jewelry, just clothing, my towel, my bedding and my beautiful husband my dog. Oh yeah my drum, because I'm a native drummer and my eagle feather. I brought that for protection to keep all of us safe.

LL: And you got the order and how quickly were you out the door and on the road?

VOICE 1: Within an hour.

LL: What's it like for you having to just go and leave your home behind home?

PATRICIA BUTLER: I'm devastated really sad but we had to evacuate to save our lives and I would rather have that than not. We are all separated, my family, my daughters are in Prince George and my parents are down here somewhere but they're going to share Sherwood Park, Alberta. Once they get signed they're off to Alberta and we're going to stay here. But I can't wait to go home and I don't know when that will be. I can't wait. I just love home [sobs]. I'm a little home buddy with my flowers, my dog and I want to go home. It is not going to happen, not for a while yet.

LL: When you say devastatingly sad, what makes it so sad for you?

PATRICIA BUTLER: Well one minute your normal life, your day to day routine at home and going to the grocery store, going for a walk to the mailbox and then poof, the weather. The lightning came in, we had no rain in Williams Lake and Friday it rolled in and it changed everything, for everybody.

LL: To wander through this place, is to witness the toll wildfire can take on its victims, even when their homes are still standing and they're safe. Some try to be stoic but still shed tears. Others are quiet, not wanting to talk about what may lie ahead. They are, in the main, older people. But over on the steps away from the lineups and the tables laden with food and coffee sits 17 year old Samantha and her 18 year old brother Vincent, looking a bit dazed by it all. Tell me about what last night, what happened, when you heard, what you did?

SAMANTHA: We were in town till about like 9:30 till… and like it looked like snow, like in the middle of July. It was just like ashes were floating everywhere. The sky was dark. It looked like hell was raining over us. Soon as we left and we were like driving out, like the side of the lake, one hill by the telephone power poles there, they had like, you can see the fire coming over. And apparently from what I hear is that apparently like the fire across the river and so if the wind goes up, volume's lake is just going to burn. I'm driving up here, like I've been here before, but you know driving up here for this, I lost pretty much almost everything. Like I have my family, but I like live in a foster home. So like, I've lost everything before, and you know it's like I'm losing everything again. And it's like, just sucks. It really does.

LL: When you're told you have to leave, how do you decide what you're going to take? What's important to you?

SAMANTHA: That's the hard part. I couldn't figure out what I wanted to take, like I have a suitcase and two backpacks, full of things that I just couldn't leave behind. I have clothes, I have porcelain in my suitcase that's wrapped up in clothes because I've had those since I was a little girl.

LL: And when you lived through something like this, though, leaving your home and the possibility of losing your home, what do you think about going back and living in Williams Lake again do you want to go back?

SAMANTHA: Honestly, if it's going to be like this every summer, I would just move somewhere else. I just be like, I'm so done with this. No. I am not living it. I'm not living in a in a burning hell ring for the rest of my life. Like I want to like, be able to have nice things and not worry that, you know, every summer I'm going to lose it, not be worried that every summer there's going to be another fire and it's going to get worse. And it's, It’s just a lot.

LL: Kamloops residents, no strangers to wildfires, are here too, here to help. Ashley Demedeiros read vest clearly marks her as a volunteer. Ready to do whatever is needed. She's been inside the arena where cots are set up, head to toe, on what's usually the surface of the rink ready for whoever needs to sleep. To her it's a bit unsettling.

ASHLEY DEMEDEIROS: That's eerie because it's darked out in there, and you know you've come here to watch hockey games and concerts and things like that, so it's something I've never seen, that's for sure. But yeah, it is at least a place for some to lay their head and hopefully get a little rest.

LL: Why do you want to volunteer?

ASHLEY DEMEDEIROS: I actually have family from up north. They currently live in Quesnel. So they aren't on evacuation alert right now but it's pretty close. So I just thought I would want someone to help my family, if they are in a situation that they had to evacuate. So that's why I'm here.

LL: And you've been talking to the people in the line up?

ASHLEY DEMEDEIROS: Yes, I have been. Lots of people, poor people that you know they're leaving at 11:00 last night and it took eight hours to get here when really it should only be about a for like less than a four hour drive and…

LL: What kind of shape are people in?

ASHLEY DEMEDEIROS: Everyone's just really thankful that you know our services are in place, that you know no lives are in danger.

LL: I've seen some tears, too, though, ha?

ASHLEY DEMEDEIROS: I haven't seen any yet. But I can imagine. I've heard a few volunteers especially last night, because there are people that volunteer through the night, that you know they're holding people's babies because they just need a minute. Yeah. So, yeah, very tiring times but it's really great to see them coming together.

LL: Lynda Bell, a 29 year resident of Williams Lake arrived with her husband and her dog in the middle of the night and slept on a cot in that eerie arena.

LYNDA BELL: We're just glad to have someone that we could sleep. I mean, we're so thankful.

LL: Did you get much sleep last night?

LYNDA BELL: No. I'm just too worried.

LL: Can you get back to the day when you first got the evacuation alert, when they told you you might have to go?

LYNDA BELL: We packed everything, our dogs, our suitcases. So we were all packed and ready to go. So when they said we were going to go oh it took us 10 minutes and we're gone.

LL: How did you choose what to put in the car?

LYNDA BELL: I just packed enough for seven days because I figured I could, you know, like you get to a laundromat and wash clothes. But you know what material things, it doesn't matter. Those can be replaced. Life can't be.

LL: How did that feel, to drive away from your home?

LYNDA BELL: Fears.

LL: I have no idea what that's like.

LYNDA BELL: Nobody does. Nobody does, not until it happens to them.

LL: Have they given you any sense of how long you're going to be here.

MR. BELL: Seven days.

LYNDA BELL: Yes, we were ok yeah for seven days so we're fine here. We'll stay here and then when we can go back then, we'll go home. When they say it's okay for us to go, that it's going to be safe for us to stay there because I don't want to be leaving again.

LL: And those are just some of the people who were forced to leave Williams Like. I'm Laura Lynch here in Kamloops with a special edition of The Current. Now there is one resident of Williams Lake who stayed behind Walt Cobb is the mayor of Williams Lake, and he signed the evacuation order. Hello.

WALT COBB: Hello.

LL: It seems a bit crazy to me, Mayor, why did you decide to stay?

WALT COBB: I just… That is my job. What else can I say? It's my job to look after my community and I want to be sure that I can be here to do absolutely everything I could to make sure that everybody is safe or got out safe, if necessary.

LL: Who is there now in the community?

WALT COBB: Very few people, but we still have most of our staff here at the operations center. There are some people here that are… We have the operation center for the regional district in Williams Lake, as well, so some of their people are still here. There's multiple fire departments from around the province that are here helping us. There's something like 500 RCMP here at our airport. So there's a number of people here but there's not very many residents.

LL: So what are your days consisting of now that most people have left?

WALT COBB: Well I moved my motorhome to the fire department, when the evacuation notice was put out. And I'm here and we're in and out of meetings all day long, meeting with the different, mostly on conference calls, with the fire departments and the fire center, as well as the weatherman and the RCMP. We are in constant contact with everybody that is involved of this emergency and we need three four times a day, it varies depending on the situation, or just exactly what's happening at the time. But yeah we're on top of it, as much as we can be.

LL: Describe for me what it looks like as you look around the city.

WALT COBB: Right now it looks like a lot of blue smoke. Yeah. You can't see. Right now, I think our… I do not know what our rating is but it was 42. So you know, you can't see very far.

LL: What does that mean when you say 42?

WALT COBB: The air quality and it is bad. Thirty six is evacuation stage. So they say that it's even worse than, say Bangladesh, those kind of countries that have major issues with the air quality.

LL: Is there any fire within sight of the city?

WALT COBB: We saw flames over the mountain. That's the one that's causing a lot of problems out in the [unintelligible].

LL: Tell me what it's like to drive around empty streets in this town that you know and love so well?

WALT COBB: It kind of makes you think you're watching a movie like a [unintelligible] or apocalypse or whatever it is. Yeah where. Yeah it's eerie, it's weird. Just it's, it's very strange. I drove around today for a while and, just to see what I could see and who might be around, and there's no cars in driveways, no lights in windows, no nobody walking the streets, no dogs, no no... It's eerie.

LL: Did you ever think you were going to see your city this way?

WALT COBB: I never seen in my life figured we would we would have to do this.

LL: How hard was it for you then to sign that evacuation order?

WALT COBB: Well signing the evacuation order wasn't the hardest part. I mean the hardest part was the worry about it having to happen and the concern was to make sure that we did it in time, and not end up with a huge disaster where we had where we had loss of lives and things like that. Touch wood, right now we've had no injuries and everybody is out safe.

LL: I was speaking earlier to some people from Williams Lake who have come here to Kamloops and obviously they're worried. I'm sure you're hearing from anxious residents as well and from your own friends and family, well, what are they telling you?

WALT COBB: Well they are, I think from what I'm hearing anyway a lot of it is on the social media stuff and WhatNot but I'm sending out regular circulars on WhatNot, and to let them know what they're feeling and as much as I can. But everybody that has contacted me are happy at least that we did, we did what we did in time and that there was no loss and everybody got out safe. I have to say the evacuation went very very smooth and I really appreciate the fact that people were patient. They were calm and they didn't cause any issues along the road.

LL: What are firefighters and other officials telling you about the fire and the weather and what could happen next?

WALT COBB: We're at the mercy of the weather and all we can do is be as prepared as we can.

LL: Can you tell me something about your community? What makes Williams Lake the community that it is?

WALT COBB: Well I think this is disaster basically has brought our community even closer together. We always were a close knit community where neighbors helping neighbors, somebody needed help, you went and helped them kind of thing. But this has drawn the community closer together, but it's also drawn our neighboring communities together. And I think it's unfortunate that sometimes disasters have to make us a better place. But I think in this case at the end of the day we will even be a better place than we were before this happened.

LL: Mayor, there are those who study these things who say that this kind of situation is going to become the new normal, in a sense. What do you say to our residents of your community when you hear that?

WALT COBB: Well I don't necessarily agree with that. Yes there's going to be changes, there's always been changes, but I don't know whether… I would hate to think that this was going to be the norm and yes, there's always been changes, there's always things happened in different areas, but they're always in different areas. It's been a fact of life since the beginning of time that the different areas have had different disasters and this happens to be I guess our turn.

LL: I guess so, but this year it seems to be happening awfully early in the season.

WALT COBB: Yes, yes, it is. And we're probably looking at the smoky weather and the air quality at least till September. In the past we've always had forest fires in the caribou, for ever since I've been here for 60 some odd years so, we've always had Smokey issues in the summer. This just happens to be a year where the fires are closer to the city than they ever were before.

LL: To what extent would you say that residents and firefighters are getting the information and the support that they need from government?

WALT COBB: Oh. There's no question we're getting absolutely all the support we can get. If man can stop the disaster we're ready for it. And I believe that some of these things are in somebody else's hands. That's just the way it's going to be. Like my wife said the other morning, she woke up quite calm and said: “This is in somebody else's hands. God has made his mind up what's going to happen and we will have to live with it”.

LL: Where is your wife now?

WALT COBB: She's right here, at the other side of the table.

LL: [Gasps] You've got your wife there with you. You haven't told your family to leave?

WALT COBB: No. Well, my family, my daughter and her husband and son are in Ashley at the Calgary Stampede right now. They were out of town and couldn't get back and they were camping so they decided to go to the Calgary Stampede. My son is here with us because he's in charge of the bus fleet that we've been using to evacuate people. His wife happens to be in Prince George because they were in Prince George when this happened and she couldn't get back because of the alert notice, to start with. Well his area was back evacuated long before mine but he's here with us, in the motorhome with us too, waiting for further instructions.

LL: Would you prefer that your wife leave?

WALT COBB: No. I don't think so. That's her choice and she's decided she's going to stay with me and we will leave when the firemen have to leave.

LL: That's what I was going to ask you, how much longer do you plan to stay?

WALT COBB: I will leave with the firemen have to leave.

LL: Right. Until that very last moment, that sounds awfully risky.

WALT COBB: Well, I don't know. I guess there's a risk you have to take, but the they want they don't want to put their life in jeopardy, either. So there's people that know what's going to happen and how the fires move and whatnot and they will do whatever they can do to make us all get out at the right time.

LL: Mayor Cobb please, take care of yourself and your wife, too.

WALT COBB: Thank you.

LL: Walt Cobb is the mayor of Williams Lake, British Columbia and that is where we reached him. Now we want to hear from you particularly if you've been affected by the wildfires. You can reach us via e-mail through our website cbc.ca/thecurrent, and then click on the Contact link, or you can find us on Facebook or on Twitter @thecurrentCBC or me @LauraLynchCBC. And while you're on our website, you can see photos of the kinds of things we are seeing here in Kamloops and even closer to the fires.

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LL: The CBC News will be coming up next. Then, we're going to hear how volunteers in Kamloops are opening their doors not just to people who are fleeing the fires but also to their furry friends. And we'll hear from a science writer who says bigger, hotter, faster fires are the new normal, not just here in British Columbia but just about everywhere that there are forests and there is heat and there's not enough being done to prepare. I'm Laura Lynch. You are listening to a special edition of the current covering British Columbia's wildfires from Kamloops.

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'Hanging onto their pets is really hanging onto their sanity': B.C. animal owners flee wildfires

Guest: Ed Struzik

LL: Hello I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to a special edition of The Current, covering British Columbia's wildfires from Kamloops.

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LL: Still to come, a long time explorer and science writer Ed Struzik has been watching human interaction with fire for decades. He's turned his attention to this and he's had some unsettling conclusions. From VCs interior to Fort McMurray California to Australia, we're on track for this kind of disaster to come the new normal. But first, an unexpected rowdy scene at the Kamloops evacuation center.

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LL: Earlier we heard some of the moving stories of people who arrived here in Kamloops, after being forced from their homes by wildfires of the nearly 40000 evacuees, many are now here. And there are several places around the city set up to help them. Outside the evacuee center where people first registered, there is one place where the services are a bit different. You can tell by the rows of cages, the special food and the distinctive sounds. Bonnie McBride is the coordinator with the forepaws food bank in Kamloops. And here's how she and her crew are helping out.

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BONNIE MCBRIDE: This is Zeus's, so Zeus is a little overweight. He's got to have a lot of extra care actually. We are working really hard to keep him cool [sound: Dog barks]. He has have lots of baths. Hey, Zeus. Good boy. Come on, baby, let’s go. Jessie, do you want to take him for a little run? [Sound: Dogs bark] So we basically set up an emergency shelter right outside of the reception center, and we have about 25 tents here. We've got a full service pet store basically for people to collect any supplies they weren't able to bring with them, a welder in the reception center registering, reregistering or getting services. We're taking care of their pets outside.

VOICE 1: Thank you.

VOICE 2: You are very welcome.

BONNIE MCBRIDE: So we have had upwards of thirty five animals at a time on site, each day since that Friday. We've had over 400 animals that have sat here with us, sometimes up to 10 or 12 hours, while their owners get through that process and take care of their own needs. We have had a lot of logistical issues to deal with, with that much sun and that much heat. It's been on average about 35 degrees here each day, and we have had those winds that are coming through that are whipping up the fire. We're having the same issues. So we have a lot of doggie pools and we have frozen water bottles and we tuck them in the crates. We have covered the crates with cooled wet sheets and then blown fans across them to create manual air conditioners. We're using essential oils like lavender and a rescue remedy which we spray across those wet sheets so that we can keep the dogs calm.

VOICE: You are tucked to your [unintelligible] again [sound: Dog barks].

BONNIE MCBRIDE: We have 60 volunteers that are dog walking. They're just sitting with the dogs that require that. Sometimes we have to hand feed the pets. We've had everything from woodpeckers and bearded dragons to sheep and goats. We've had lots of dogs. So we're trying to run basically a full service emergency shelter, but just for those pets. I've been doing this for a long time. I spent some time in 2003 responded to the barrier fires, really taken care of about 2200 animals. I've been to Hurricane Katrina. And after that, I went to New Orleans and spent three weeks in a shelter down there. This is the first time that we've ever been actually able to set up, at this scale, right at the emergency reception center, which means that we have given out more pet supplies than I have ever seen in my two decades. We are averaging about 500 bags of food and litter a day, on top of the toys and treats, leashes and water bowls that we're giving out. So we've been able to set it up I think in a way that we're not missing a single evacuee, or their pets.

[Cross talking in the background]

[Sound: Dogs bark]

BONNIE MCBRIDE: Oh so, here is Zeus, playing in the pool [laughs].

[Sounds: Kissing dog]

VOICE 2: big dog, little pool [Laughs].

VOICE 3: Yes. [unintelligible]

BONNIE MCBRIDE: He has been having popsicles, we made him beef popsicles. Then little treats they can have and it helps keep them cool. So, let us have some beef popsicles to [unintelligible]. He is a favourite around here.

KAREN WARREN: I'm from Cache Creek and we got evacuated on Friday last week and it's been hell for Princess here, well and Prince [unintelligible]. Yes, it's been crazy. I actually came back from shopping in camp on Friday when I have seen all the smoke was like “oh my god”. Then they told us we had to evacuate. So, I grabbed the dogs, their food, their treats, and that was it. Not sure of anything else, right? Hopefully, when you get back in soon, because I am going nuts. Well, we want to go back home right. We think we're fine, but certainly we're not, because of the fires all around us. We're like, I guess the center, right? Which is the hardest. So, oh God. It's bad. I hate it. I totally hate it [sobs]. I am [unintelligible].

BONNIE MCBRIDE: These people are so stressed out, for a lot of these people, hanging on these pets, is really hanging onto their sanity. The dog they bring here in their arms is the only thing they have left. KAREN WARREN: They sleep with me at night, they both do.

VOICE 2: Oh. Do they? Okay, that might not happen [laughs].

KAREN WARREN: [Laughs] He will sleep on the floor, but she will just level on the bed.

VOICE 2: So basically some treats in the morning, some dry food, a swimming pool and lots of love.

KAREN WARREN: Yes.

LL: And you heard there from evacuee Karen Warren, from Cache Creek with her dog Zeus. They were at the animal emergency shelter outside the evacuee center here in Kamloops. It is run by Bonnie McBride of the Four Paws Food Bank. And you can see photos of Zeus and the animal shelter on our website at cbc.ca/thecurrent. Well, caring for their beloved pets is just one of the challenges people here are facing. This is ranch country. So, thousands of cows, horses and other animals have been endangered too, as well as wildlife. A good part of the region's economy also depends on mining. Forestry and tourism in there are all in jeopardy, at least in the short term. And of course people are mainly worried for their own safety, their families and homes. Across the province, 40000 people from communities under an evacuation order. Another 17000 are on alert, meaning they could be told to go at any moment. The numbers are dramatic but they are not exceptional. Just last year a fire tore through Fort McMurray, Alberta, forcing more than 90000 people out, in the largest fire evacuation in the provinces history. More than 2400 homes and structures were leveled by the blaze that left, then fire chief Darby Allen, fighting tears the day the evacuation order was issued.

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DARBY ALLEN: I would say it's been… It's been the worst day of my career. And I… You know, the whole… The people here are devastated. Everyone's devastated. The community is going to be devastated. This is going to go on; this is going to take us a while to come back from. We have had Impact two houses within McMurray that have been, either are on fire, or will be on fire. But we're still in the extinguishment place. We're still fighting this blaze and it's nasty. It's a nasty ugly fire and it is not showing any forgiveness.

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Intense wildfires 'inevitable,' says environmental writer and expert

Guest: Ed Struzik

LL: My next guest says the Fort McMurray fire should have been a catalyst for change across the country to wildfire management, science and research. But Ed Struzik says, that change has been too slow to come, even as intense wildfires such as the ones now engulfing BC’s interior become the new normal. He is the author of Fire Storm: How Wildfire Will Shape Our Future. It is a book due out this fall and he's a fellow with the Institute for Energy and Environmental Policy at Queens University in Kingston, Ontario. Ed Struzik is in our Edmonton studio. Hello.

ED STRUZIK: Hello.

LL: First of all, can I ask you how surprised are you by what we are seeing unfold with these wildfires, in the B.C. interior?

ED STRUZIK: Not surprised. I mean, everybody I talked to while writing the book, all the experts said that this is going to happen again, sooner rather than later. So it comes as no surprise to me and I don't think it comes to a surprise to anybody who's been following wildfire trends in Canada. This is the new normal.

LL: Even in the sense that they've arrived earlier than usual this year and they're so widespread?

ED STRUZIK: You know, the trend has been that fires are starting earlier than they have say 20 or 30 years ago. The Fort McMurray fires started in early May. The fire seasons now, the provinces are ramping up for it in March. I think that you know, as the climate gets warmer and warmer, we're probably going to see you know the ramping up starting weeks earlier as we go along.

LL: And looking back on the fire in Fort Murray, what lessons were learned from that wildfire that could or should have been applied here in BC or elsewhere?

ED STRUZIK: You know I think that it's entirely sure that it could be applied to BC, but I think in a general sense, is that I think that one thing that was obvious, is that you don't order an evacuation when the fire is already in town. And this is not to lay any blame on any of the decision makers in this case. I think that what you really need and people have to understand, is that there's so much information coming at people like Darby Allen it's almost overwhelming. And there's so much at stake, you know, that if you evacuate a town, the size of Fort McMurray, than you effectively you're shutting down the oil sands. Not for just days, but for weeks because it takes a long time for that to shut down and then to ramp it back up. So there's economic decisions to make, there's human decisions to make and I think that really the lesson that should be learned from that, and from Slave Lake and Kelowna, is that we should have a policy in place that… Okay, if there's a fire 10 kilometers away, we go to yellow alert. Everybody, pack your bags, get ready to go. And then if it comes within five kilometers of town, get out. So there's no wiggle room. This is the policy. This is the law. You have to leave because we know that a fire can move very quickly. It can cover five kilometers in a matter of hours.

LL: So what recommendations for wildfire management were made then in the wake of the fire in Fort Murray?

ED STRUZIK: Well, I think you know, that that was I think hinted at one of them and it goes right back to the Canadian wild lands fire strategy of 2005, is that we need a better, early warning system in place. I think we need more money to make communities resilient to fire, such as more money for fire smart programs. That's coming. But it's really a trickle and what we need is a flood. And I think we also need to invest in science, because right now we have a forest fire danger index that was created in the 1980s, for fires that existed before then. It was the gold standard in its day and I think it's been the gold standard for the longest time. It's been adopted by many European countries but it really needs to be updated, because you know these fires now are so intense. You know as Fort McMurray demonstrated they behaved in ways that just completely flabbergast the plot of veteran firefighters.

LL: Just for people who don't, know quickly what are fire smart programs?

ED STRUZIK: Those are the programs to remove, you know, the deadwood that's in the forest right around the community, create buffer zones around communities. So, you essentially knock down most of the trees or you think the forest, so that if a fire does come to town, the firefighters can anchor themselves in this relatively safe area and fight the fire before it gets there. It also educates people, tells them that if you live in the boreal forest, you shouldn't have cedar shake shingles on your roof because you know, if an amber can travel two kilometers and it lands on your roof, cedar burns very quickly. And it's also, ornamental Cedars around a house. There's a whole bunch of things, you know wood fences, Fort McMurray firefighters talk about knocking down fences, because that was the first thing that started to burn. So there's it's multifaceted. It's a great program, but it's not the only answer.

LL: Earlier you mentioned previous wildfires in Slave Lake and Kelowna. I wonder if you could walk us through some of the other major wildfires in recent memory and recommendations that follow those.

ED STRUZIK: Well you know, I think you could say that it probably started with Salmon Arms in Virginia hills and in 1998, which were huge fires in Virginia hills and resulted in evacuation. I really think that the 2003 fire season was the wakeup call, because it wasn't just Kelowna and Kamloops and [unintelligible] that were burning. That year, all of Crowsnest Pass this past had to be evacuated. I mean they were out of their homes pretty much all summer long. Jasper, you know, the folk festival was interrupted. Cars were backed up all the way back to Hinton because of fires that were burning and threatening to move towards the town of Jasper or possibly towards the town of Hinton. Kootenay, there was a heroic effort to put that fire out or slow that fire, before it jumped into Banff and got out of hand. And following that, you know, really intense fire season, the B.C. government hired Gary Filmon, former premier of Manitoba, to come up with an inquiry and provide recommendations what do we need to do. And he said, at the end of it, is that we have a once in a chance lifetime to do something and really nothing was done. And this thing has been, the ball has been, or the can has been kicked down the street so many times over the last what 16, 17 years that a lot a lot of wildfires scientists a lot of wildfire fighters are getting really cynical, because no one is really taking this seriously.

LL: Why not?

ED STRUZIK: You know, I think it's a head scratcher for me. I think part of the reason is, is that politicians rotate in and out of office on a regular basis and so there's not this institutional memory in place. So that people that were maybe around in 2003 that are responsible for making decisions now are not there at the political level. But I also think that it's at the bureaucratic level. You know, let's face it. We've had since Paul Martin: John Chretien, Stephen Harper, we've had a bureaucracy that has been focused on deconstructing, cutting programs, you know getting budgets balanced. We don't have any builders in the bureaucracy, because we've just we did them all load. And I think we need some really big ideas to come into play.

LL: So you're saying budgets have been cut for things like firefighting and wildfire fighting and fire prevention?

ED STRUZIK: Not for wildfire fighting. I think that the budget has increased, but it's taking money away from other programs such as fire science. You know the Canadian Forest Service used to be one of the gold standards for promoting fire science in North America, if not the world. And you know they had twenty four hundred people working for them in the 1990s. They have less than 700 now. Their fire budget is almost non-existent. It's actually quite pathetic. I think that's probably a good start is that we've got to start investing more in wildfire science, to help firefighters understand how fires behave, to help communities make themselves more resilient to fire. And to try to figure out as well, you know, for industry is what's going to grow out of some of these fires because we have fires burning regularly, say every 10 or 15 years, it's not going to be the white spruce that come back. You know it's going to be perhaps Aspen in Poplar and if that burns you know every 10 years, you know it's probably going to turn more into a grasslands environment. So this has a big impact on industry as well.

LL: But is it when it comes to things like the science of this. I understand the United States is still investing quite a lot in this kind of thing.

ED STRUZIK: They're investing an enormous amount, way out of proportion to what we are investing in.

LL: But I'm assuming we get access to all of their science, we're not being shut out of that.

ED STRUZIK: Well, if it's a different forest in most of the United States. We live in a boreal forest a forest that is essentially born to burn. The United States is largely deciduous, apart from say, you know, the Western Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Washington. I mean there's some similarities there. There's a lot there's a lot of very good exchange taking place, but our forest is one of the biggest forests in the world, bigger than the Amazon, bigger than it than the rain forest combined. And it is a forest that essentially is a pyrotechnic … It's a bomb ready to go off and the problem is that we've been fighting fires, in the boreal forest, for so long that we've created these mature forests that have become less resilient to infestations to the mountain pine beetle and to fire. A younger tree does a much better fighting off insects, it does much better in recovering from drought and other stressors. And I think that's the take home message.

LL: How would you like to see forest management change?

ED STRUZIK: Well I think first of all, we've got to take the fire smart program seriously and start really investing in it, not making it so difficult for communities to, you know, especially the smaller communities and the First Nations communities. You know, we have to apply for these programs. You have to find matching funding in some cases. It needs a lot more money to catch up with the challenge that's taking place is just going to take decades. So, I think more money is going to have to be spent there. And I think we need to update the fire danger index in Canada and that's going to require a lot more investment in fire science. This is really the big challenge. It's a challenge for human health. It's a challenge for the economy. It's the challenge for people's livelihoods.

LL: But tell us about a recent decision by the Ontario government to actually allow fires to just burn out in certain cases.

ED STRUZIK: Well it's that's probably the boldest initiative that I was able to come up with in writing this book, is that in places where people are not threatened, industries not threatened, in the boreal forests of Ontario, the policy is that we will let it burn. It's a risky proposition because fires can get out of control. That happens with prescribed burns but to allow a fire say a lightning caused fire to burn, is essentially allowing what Mother Nature would normally do. And I think that's a pretty bold, pretty progressive way of looking at it. It becomes more difficult as you move west. Not so much in Manitoba in Saskatchewan but you look at Alberta, where we really haven't had any land use planning in place to deal with fires, that we have so many oil sands fracking timber operations and people moving and living in the forests, that it's almost impossible now for Alberta to be able to say well we're going to let that fire burn, because they're just more than likely somebody, something, some industry is going to get in the way. So I think you know this is an option for a lot of provinces but I think the lesson to be learned from Alberta is that you've got to get ahead of the game.

LL: Okay, Mr. Struzik, there is obviously so much more to talk about but not enough time. Thank you very much.

ED STRUZIK: Thank you.

LL: Ed Struzik is the author of Fire Storm: How Wildfire Will Shape Our future. It is due out this fall. He's also a fellow with the Institute for Energy and Environmental Policy at Queens University in Kingston, Ontario. And he was in our Edmonton studio. Well that is our program for today stay tuned to Radio 1 for a new episode of the summer series: Love Me. This week a love triangle between the most unlikely trio. And remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It lets you browse through past episodes of our show and start listening in just a few seconds and you can search for stories you missed, want to hear again or listen live to your local CBC station right here from your smartphone or your tablet, hear the day's top stories, make your own playlist of your favorite stuff to listen to later. It is free from the App Store or Google Play. Now tune into the CBC tomorrow we are live from Kamloops B.C. again and we're going to head out of the city, and venture to Ashcroft where firefighters are still working hard to contain the fires but homes have been lost. And we will meet people profoundly affected by what's happened and how they are leaning on each other for support. And we will leave you today with some sounds from the street here in Kamloops. Yesterday under hazy smoky skies, we noticed a couple of people sitting on the sidewalk with a couple of speakers, some guitars and other musical instruments. So we stopped say hello. I'm Laura Lynch in Kamloops. Thank you for listening to this special edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Music]

PETER THORNE: I do feel great. I t is nice to be out and doing something today. Get my band activated. My name's Peter Thorne and this is my wife Gail.

GAIL THORNE: I am Gail Thorne, yes, yes.

PETER THORNE: We're both from the 108. We're evacuees for the last what? Week?

GAIL THORNE: Nine days. This is our ninth day.

PETER THORNE: Nine days, already. And we are staying at friends in Kamloops, here. We've made her way here. We had a couple of stops before we got to this destination. It's great to be in Kamloops.

GAIL THORNE: We're just trying to deal with Red Cross and banking. I applied for EI. All of those things just because we don't know when we're going to come back.

PETER THORNE: I consider ourselves lucky.

GAIL THORNE: Yes, because we have friends that we're staying with.

PETER THORNE: Very lucky, actually.

GAIL THORNE: You know there's other people with ranches that are having to put 45 pigs, they have to [unintelligible].

PETER THORNE: [Unintelligible] in the middle of the night, but just comparing to that.

GAIL THORNE: That is why we feel like we are lucky, but…

PETER THORNE: It is terrible, it is all BC is just red alert.

GAIL THORNE: It is very frustrating because ,you don't know, for a while there we didn't know if our house was even standing. But I mean…

PETER THORNE: Always a concern, when you are about to sleep at night, that's probably the last thing you will think.

GAIL THORNE: We're assuming ours is fine at this point.

PETER THORNE: We took everything we could. And I feel selfish I got all my gear here. I'm a musician. I'm going to perform a little bit of music on the street here. It's been a long week. This happens to be one of the… it is a [unintelligible] box guitar This one's a three Stringer. They are a lot of fun.

[Sound: Music]

[Music: Theme]

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July 17, 2017 full episode transcript

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