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The AIH Transcript for July 6, 2017

Hosts: Laura Lynch and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

LAURA LYNCH: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

LL: State of mind. Before he died, the late CFL defensive lineman Rick Klassen donated his brain for research. And now, that research has found a level of trauma that surpassed even the worst expectations.

CH: Bad company. Former employees of the Sears department store chain discover their former employer has cut off their severance payments, which means our guest may lose up to twenty thousand dollars.

LL: The silent mistreatment. A friend of a murdered Saskatchewan teen says she's glad the girl's former boyfriend has been sentenced. But she wants to know why so many of their acquaintances stayed quiet when they heard about his deadly plans.

CH: A mistake of biblical proportions. The American arts and crafts company Hobby Lobby is known for promoting Christianity. But it suffers a spiritual and financial loss after agreeing to forfeit thousands of smuggled artifacts intended for a Bible museum.

LL: Retro inactive. Police shut down a Manhattan street after construction crews discovered something that looks an awful lot like a bomb… Before attendees of a legendary dance club remember it the time capsule they buried in 1984 while partying.

CH: And… sleight of ham. It's the 80th anniversary of a canned meat product that turned processed pork shoulder into a household staple. And tonight, we'll visit our archives to pay tribute to the glistening pink majesty of Spam. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that has assembled an impressive pork-folio.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: Rick Klassen CTE, SK murder case, NYC time capsule

Rick Klassen CTE

Guest: Chad Klassen

CH: As a former CFL defensive lineman, Rick Klassen bore visible scars from a career playing football. And today, we've finally learned about the toll his years of professional football took on the inside, specifically on his brain. Before he died, the former B.C. Lions player agreed to have his brain tested for chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a disease that can be caused by repeated brain injuries. The results were startling. Doctors say that Rick Klassen's brain looked like it came from someone in their 70’s or 80’s, not a person who died at 57. Chad Klassen is Rick Klassen's son. We reached him in Kamloops, B.C.

LL: Chad, how did you react when you got the results showing the extent of the damage to your father's brain?

CHAD KLASSEN: It's a little surprising, not surprising to the extent that we knew that he had CTE and he knew before he passed away that he had CTE. The surprising part is the extent of the CTE. Talking with Dr. Hazrati, who conducted the autopsy, she told me that among the two dozen athletes — both hockey and football players — that she studied. My dad is one of the worst cases, which came as a bit of a shock to me to be honest.

LL: Well, what exactly did the doctors find when they looked at your dad's brain?

CK: Basically, there was damage, mostly to his frontal lobe, which of course affects emotions and your ability to control your emotions. And certainly, we saw that as a family. My dad's inability at times to control his emotions. He was very irritable at times, and unfortunately our immediate family got the brunt of it, my brother, sister, myself and my mom.

LL: What did he tell you about what it felt like to know his brain might have been damaged by his career?

CK: That’s a good question because my dad knew he had suffered concussions. He said he suffered three major concussions during his football career where he got completely knocked out. He also said that he suffered thousands of what he called “minor concussions” because he was hitting pretty much on every play. And yeah, I mean he didn't like the symptoms that came with the concussions. But, at the same time, he would tell me that regardless of how he felt and the risks of playing a sport like football that he would actually do it all again because he just loved the game so much and he wanted to play.

LL: But do you think he knew back then that all of this would have resulted in something as serious as CTE?

CK: I don't think so to be honest. He would tell me stories of getting hit and knocked out and feeling dizzy and seeing stars. But really the teams didn't know back then really about concussions and what effect they could have on an athlete after their life. So I mean he would tell me stories of getting hit and then maybe coming out for one play and then going right back in and the same thing happening again. So it was just little concussion after concussion. So yeah, I don't I just don't think they knew back then.

LL: What does the fact that that he would get hit, he would have what he called a mini concussion, he’d go out, he’d come back in. What does that tell you about the kind of player and person your dad was?

CK: Well, from what I hear he retired when I was three years old. So I didn't get to see him when I was younger. But just looking at film and hearing from some of his teammates, he was a very tenacious player. His motor was always going. He was a fast player and very determined. And he would tell me that when he was injured and had to sit out that he hated it. He wanted to play no matter what, so it doesn't surprise me to be honest when I hear about stories of him getting hit and seeing stars and him going right back into the game. To be honest, that doesn't surprise me because he just loved playing.

LL: And as you said, the CFL career for him was absolutely worth it.

CK: Totally, yeah. He would do it again in a heartbeat. And I'm sure up in Heaven, he's playing right now.

LL: Should the league be doing more to protect players from CTE?

CK: Absolutely. I don't think he can fully negate hitting of course. That's the nature of football it's a physical sport. But I know they've done a good job as far as protecting quarterbacks. But as far as defensive linemen, offensive linemen, linebackers that are pretty much hitting every play I think I don't know. It's a tough one because you take hitting away, or you lessen hitting in the sport and that totally takes away from the integrity of the sport. So certainly they've done a good job as far as reducing helmet-to-helmet hits, which was very prevalent back in the 80’s. My dad tells me stories of how coaches used to teach them as defensive linemen to hit the quarterback right in the ear hole to knock them out. So I mean so different today, but I just wish that the CFL… former commissioner Jeffrey Orridge a while back basically denied the links between CTE and football and concussions. And I hope with the CFL getting a new commissioner here — a former player himself — that they take this more seriously and work on protecting players a little bit more.

LL: How have these results changed how you see the game of football?

CK: Absolutely, they've made me look at football a little bit differently. I still love the sport and watching. And I still love the big hits, but, at the same, time knowing what the players are going through given the results of my dad's brain autopsy certainly makes me think twice about allowing my kids to play. I don't have kids yet. But my wife and I have talked about that recently as far as not letting our kids play football and be subject to that kind of damage.

LL: What do you think your dad would have thought about your change of view?

CK: I think he knew. Like when we were kids, my brother and I were interested in playing football. And honestly, my dad didn't want that even back then because he knew the damage that had happened to his brain, and he didn't want that for his own kids. So, of course, he would have done it himself, but he didn't want us playing and I think he's kind of passed that along to me. And obviously, seeing the results of his brain and the CTE has kind of solidified our decision — My wife and I’s decision to, most likely, not let our kids play.

LL: Chad, I'm sorry you lost your dad at such a relatively young age. But I think it's probably a good legacy for him that he's getting the word out on this. Thank you.

CK: Absolutely. Yeah, thank you.

LL: Bye bye.

CK: OK.

CH: Chad Klassen is the son of former B.C. Lions lineman Rick Klassen. We reached him in Kamloops, B.C. And we've posted more on that story on the As It Happens website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

SK murder case

Guest: Brenna Ecker

CO: Brenna Ecker still can't believe that so many people knew. It's just over two years since her 16-year-old friend, Hannah Leflar, was found stabbed to death in her Regina home. Yesterday, Hannah's former boyfriend Skylar Prockner was sentenced, as an adult, to life in prison for her murder. But the court records shows that Mr. Prockner enlisted friends to help him stalk Hannah, and that at least seven teenagers joined in a plot to attack her. We reached Brenna Ecker in Moose Jaw.

LL: Brenna, how have you been feeling since the sentencing?

BRENNA ECKER: I don't know, it's kind of like a shock, but it’s also reliving to know that his part is over and done with, and he got the best that we could have hoped for.

LL: When did you first realize that all of these other kids were involved in this plot to kill your friend?

BE: I don't know, a couple of months into the court dates and trail, I heard more and more about all of these different plans and all the people who had told different advice and stuff to him.

LL: And that's when you realized this was bigger than you thought it was?

BE: Yeah.

LL: Tell me what “Project Zombify” was?

BE: Project Zombify was a plan that Skylar and some of his friends had made up to get Hannah's boyfriend alone in a park so they could beat him up. And they had like baseball bats and different kinds of weapons that they were going to use to tear him apart.

LL: But then they called it off. Why?

BE: Because Hannah and the boyfriend broke up.

LL: And what happened after that?

BE: I think they just kind of called it off for a while and let her go about her life. And then I think the next time that we heard from Skyler was right before Hannah died.

LL: What happened?

BE: She started dating a new guy, and Skyler had started showing up around school and stuff to you know follow them when they left for lunch and stuff like that.

LL: And what did he do at that point?

BE: He was Facebooking and texting his friends telling them how he wanted to hurt her, he wanted her dead, he wanted to kill her; he wanted to become a serial killer.

LL: How do you feel when you learned all of this?

BE: Horrified.

LL: Why?

BE: It's not something you think… I mean especially being in high school, you don't look around with your classmates and think about them thinking about who to kill and thinking about wanting to do some serial killers and if they can get away with it and that kind of thing. You don't think people think that way.

LL: And I understand that that some of the other people who Skyler recruited were actually expressing their sympathy after Hannah died?

BE: Yeah, lots of them were part of interviews that were put on the news. They wrote big long apologies and I love you’s and stuff on Facebook and online and they would go to her family and they tried to involve themselves as much as possible in the planning of everything after she died.

LL: I understand that one young woman said she simply didn't believe that he would actually kill her. What do you say to that?

BE: What does it matter if you believe it? It's not something you hear every day. Yeah, you don't think a high school student is going to go through with murder. But, at the same time, you don't hear people talking about how they want to murder somebody on the street. You don't hear people sitting in a classroom talking about how they want somebody dead.

LL: What should people have done when they found out about this?

BE: They should have told anybody. Like even if they told a friend of theirs, or like a couple of friends. Word gets around. Had they said something to somebody that you know was more comfortable saying it to Hannah or one of her closer friends then we could have done something.

LL: How well did you know these kids?

BE: Some of the ones that helped plan I knew fairly well. A couple of them I spent quite a bit of time with. The accomplice, who is supposed to be going back to court in the fall, I have known him since like seventh grade. I lived with him for a while; I know him really well.

LL: So, knowing what he did now how does that make you feel?

BE: I have no idea of what kind of people that I'm actually around. I can't trust anybody because I don't know what they're thinking and feeling every day.

LL: That must be really hard?

BE: Yeah, kind of.

LL: Do you still see any of these people?

BE: No, I still have contact with some of my friends from Regina and some of the other people who were involved with Hannah, but none of the ones who helped plan her murder.

LL: The prosecutors say that it's more valuable to have had those people testify as witnesses than it would have been to prosecute them. Do you understand that decision?

BE: I get it. I agree. But, at the same time, I want them to be punished like Skyler was punished because they shouldn't be allowed to go through the rest of their lives thinking they didn't do anything wrong. I can understand why it would be more helpful having them as witnesses in the short term with Skyler and the court. But, at the same time, as her friend, it kind of feels like we're only doing half of what we should be.

LL: That one young man young man who you know so well, who is now facing sentencing for his role in the murder. If you were sitting down across from him what would you say to him?

BE: I would ask him why? I get why Skylar did it, but I don't understand why he did it? I don't know what drove him to that kind of a place? He said in court that it was peer pressure, and he didn't think Skylar was going to do anything wrong, and so he went along with it. But I don't believe that.

LL: I'm wondering after all of this and the loss of such a good friend what you think of when you remember Hannah?

BE: Mostly when she died, I was pregnant and we were on a bus every day so that we could go to a couple of our classes. And she used to just like lay on my belly and poke at the baby so that she could feel her kick.

LL: Brenna, I know this must have been hard for you. I thank you for taking the time to talk to us.

BE: Thank you.

LL: Take care.

BE: You too.

LE: Bye bye.

BE: Bye.

CH: Brenna Ecker’s friend Hannah Leflar was murdered in January 2015. Yesterday, Hannah's former boyfriend was sentenced as an adult for the crime. We reached Ms.Ecker in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.

[Music: Violin]

NYC time capsule

Guest: Marguerite Van Cook

CH: To construction crews in Manhattan yesterday, the discovery was a shock. After finding what looked like a missile buried behind a building, New York police evacuated a city block in the Flatiron District. The bomb squad came in, they took a better look at the thing and realized, with relief and some bemusement, that it wasn't a bomb at all. It turns out it was a time capsule buried in 1984 by the Danceteria, a legendary dance club that hosted the likes of Madonna, the Rolling Stones and The Sex Pistols. Marguerite Van Cook remembers that time capsule well. The East Village artist helped organize the project back in ‘84. We reached her in New York City.

LL: Ms. Van Cook, did you ever imagine you'd see this time capsule again in your lifetime?

MARGUERITE VAN COOK: I did not. I did not. Well, once or twice I'd woken up in the night and thought hmmm… we put a bomb shell underground in Manhattan. Oh, nobody's going to dig that up.

LL: When was it supposed to be opened?

MVC: Oh, in like 6000 years.

LL: Well, OK.

MVC: So obviously, we weren't taking it too seriously. But we did sort of take it seriously.

LL: So how did you react when you learned that not only that it had resurfaced, but the police thought it was a bomb?

MVC: I think the expression's gob-smacked. I couldn't believe it. I mean I laughed, then I was horrified and then I thought Oh my goodness, what will they make of it if they open it and what's inside. It's kind of like the grand surprise of life. You know you think it's a bomb and then you find out it's something rather less serious.

LL: Rather less serious yes. Why had you and the others decided it was a good idea to bury a time capsule?

MVC: Well, the East Village in the 80s was an incredibly productive place in terms of the cultural life. We had bands. We had artists. And you know and we were just having a ball. And we wanted to leave some of that for the future. And just also to consider who we were and what our blessings were. And you know what we had, let's say.

LL: What year did you bury it?

MVC: ‘84.

LL: Do you remember what actually did end up going into it?

MVC: Well that's what ended up in that was: a fake eyelash from Diana Ross; Chi Chi Valenti’s G-string; a paper mâché breast…

LL: A paper mâché breast?

MVC: Yes, a mold. There were about a thousand pieces of paper with messages. We had of box that we asked people to leave messages for the future. And rather surprisingly, instead of writing we wish you the best and we were this, something intellectual. Most of them said screw you in rather stronger terms. To me, when I thought of these poor bomb experts opening up a bomb that then every message in it said screw you, it was really terrible. That was my next thought.

LL: What did you put in there?

MVC: I think I wrote a letter. I think it was one of the only serious things that went in there that had some sort of thought about who we were and what we were doing. And you know I'd been in a punk band before that, I toured with The Clash in England. So you know I had a very strong punk ethic about you know getting things right, and I'm sure that's what I put in there.

LL: And were there events around the actual burial of the capsule?

MVC: Oh yeah, yeah totally. So they built a platform that looked sort of like the thing you would launch a ship with and the bomb was hung up overhead in the alley. And there was a crowd there.And I had a bottle of champagne that I swung and bashed… well I had to bash it quite a few times to make it break on the bomb. And it was great. We had a great time.

LL: Sounds like an excuse for a party.

MVC: It was a party; every night was a party. The show ran for about a fortnight, and we, more or less, lived in Danceteria.

LL: This nightclub, Danceteria, it was it was a big deal. Madonna shot a movie scene there. It was where the Rolling Stones debuted an album. What made it such a hot place to be in the 80’s?

MVC: Every floor had a different vibe. And all of that happening young artists had murals directly on the walls. We had open bars, which brought people in. There was Ann Magnuson doing performances. All these different people were there. The Butthole Surfers were on stage. Madonna was on stage. You know it was an incredible scene and everybody was just doing their thing. It was brilliant. It was just sparkling and wonderful.

LL: This sounds like it was one of the best times of your life?

MVC: It really was a great one. You know I've had some very good times. This was a consorted good time. We were just having a ball. Because basically anything we thought of, we had the space to do it. So there were really no conceptual limits to Danceteria.

LL: It almost sounds like this time capsule has been successful in the sense that it's taken you back in time?

MVC: Well, I think the fact that all of us who have participated in it so many of us are still here. We lost a few people along the way, which is extremely sad of course. But many of us are still here and we are the time capsules at this point. We’re the people who have the voice that remember that moment which was so precious and such an important cultural moment.

LL: Have you been able to see what's in the time capsule since it was unearthed?

MVC: No, and I'm dying to see what's left? Because I know we put some mix tapes in there to give them a sampling of our music. There were some other bits and pieces. I'm sure there was a belly button…

LL: A what!

MVC: A belly button — a cast belly button. I don't know why quite? I don’t know why we were putting body parts in? I guess we were being specific about ourselves. But nevertheless, it was very fragile.

LL: What should happen to this time capsule in its contents?

MVC: Well I've had some friends who have been calling for the Museum of the City of New York to preserve it and that it should be archived. There’s a thought that we might have a party when we open it and do a sort of public…. I guess we'll break another bottle of champagne on something.

LL: None of us is as young as we used to be. Marguerite, thank you.

MVC: Well, you're very welcome. And I'm very sorry for putting people out in New York. Although, I have to say the idea of art is to disrupt in my mind, you know? We want to shake people up, but I didn't quite expect it to pan out this way and I apologize for the fear factor.

LL: Thank you, Marguerite.

MVC: You're very welcome.

LL: Bye bye.

MVC: Bye bye.

CH: Marguerite Van Cook is a New York City artist who helped bury a time capsule behind the now defunct Danceteria nightclub in 1984. It was rediscovered yesterday, when construction crews mistook it for a bomb. And you can hear more about that time capsule, along with photos of the fateful night when it was buried on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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Part 2: Sears employee, Hobby Lobby

Sears employeee

Guest: Sue Earl

CH: For almost 38 years, she was faithful to the company she worked for. But then, in March, Sue Earl lost her job at Sears. And now, she has even more reason to be angry. In fact, she feels like she's been slapped in the face. Ms Earl was laid off just three months before the department store chain announced it would close 59 stores and lay off close to 3,000 staff members. And on the day the company filed for bankruptcy protection, Sears also informed Ms. Earl that she would be cut off from her severance payments and benefits. We reached Sue Earl in Cobourg, Ontario.

LL: Ms. Earl, has it sunk in yet that Sears has cut you off?

SUE EARL: Oh, it's sunk in. Yes, it's sunk in alright.

LL: How so?

SE: Well, I should have got a payment this Friday and I know I'm not going to get one now tomorrow, so I keep thinking about that. Normally I would have and it would have bumped up my bank account, but that's not happening.

LL: Take me back to the day that you found out you were losing your job. How did you find out?

SE: On April 6^th, 2016, I actually was on holiday that week. I hadn't gone anywhere; I was just putting around home. But I got a call from a supervisor saying that there was a mandatory meeting at the store and to come in. So I knew it would probably wasn't a good thing. So that morning, we all gathered there and they told us that our store was closing a year from that date on March 25^th, 2017. And you can imagine there was a lot of shock and upset and questions. So we worked that whole year knowing that, but you know we all pulled together; we're a team and we just carried on. Lots of questions from customers because we know our customers well; it's a small town. And they were upset because we were losing another retailer. So we were told that we would get notice about our severance at the end of January. So it was a lot of speculation, you can imagine, from people you know what would we get? Who would get it? And all of that. At the end of January, we were each taken into an H.R. office and given our package and it was going to be paid out to those who qualified bi-weekly. And so our store closed at the end of March, and some of us, myself included, stayed a few days extra to wind up things, pack up files, ship the money and things like that. And then after that, our severance started and everything seemed good.

LL: And then you get a notice…

SE: And a letter in the mail…

LL: That your severance is being stopped. How much do you think you'll be losing as a result of that?

SE: For me it's $26,000. It's a year's pay.

LL: That is a lot of money.

SE: It is. It is when you're just a little person trying to make ends meet.

LL: What did it mean to you to work at Sears all those years?

SE: We were a great team and there was quite a number of us that had 25 years plus. And we worked together, helped each other and supported each other. And I feel like at the time like we were treated well. It was a good job. You know, I walked to work; I lived around the corner. They were good with you know arranging time off for vacation and things like that. Everybody worked together to support each other.

LL: CBC did hear from Sears Canada. The company said that its deep financial troubles gave it no choice but to seek court protection from its creditors while it tries to restructure. And as part of these proceedings, Sears is saying it's not able to make payments to a number of stakeholders, including laid off employees owed severance like you. What do you make of that?

SE: Well, I understand it seems to be like a legal thing that the law allows that. And I think really the law should be changed because it leaves people and families vulnerable.

LL: Well, they've also said ex-employees who feel entitled to more compensation can make a claim as part of the bankruptcy proceedings. Does that give you any hope?

SE: A little. I did see an interview with the unemployment lawyer and he said if we get anything it'll be pennies versus thousands. So there's some hope. I am usually an optimist, but I don't really feel hopeful about this.

LL: The struggles of Sears have been in the news for a long time and the reports of the company's sales dropping and job cuts and closures like yours. I'm wondering why you chose to stick with Sears for so many years?

SE: Well, it's just been the last few years that there's been a lot in the news about the struggling retailer and all that. And I don't know, I'm not I'm not the type to quit. I did get a good vacation allowance, so I don't know. I'm that type of person I stick with what I've started.

LL: What have you been doing since you were laid off?

SE: Gardening, puttering around the house, doing things that I never had time for before, got out my knitting and sorting through closets. Visiting my friends; we get together once a week have a coffee morning and talk.

LL: What are you talking about these days?

SE: Oh, anger and what we're going to do about it. My co-worker’s friends started a petition, another co-worker has contacted our MP and someone went to the labor board and we're just looking at what are our rights? And we're trying to be vocal on social media and I think that's working.

LL: It must be tough though because you must be feeling very vulnerable too?

SE: Well, yes and some are not in a great financial position either, so to have us cut off all of a sudden when you're expecting months of it is a huge blow and a shock.

LL: You're at an age now where you can retire, but other former employees may not be in that position. How are you feeling for them?

SE: I felt bad for them right at the beginning when we heard we were closing because some of them are in their mid-50s and late-50s. And you know it's hard to start over at that age.

LL: Ms. Earl, I wish you good luck in the days and the weeks to come.

SE: Thank you very much.

LL: Thank you.

CH: That was Sue Earl, a former Sears employee. We reached her in Cobourg, Ontario.

[Music: Cultural]

Sixties Scoop reunion

CH: He was separated from his family in Winnipeg as a boy, and sent to the other side of the world. Now, two decades later, Brent Mitchell has finally enjoyed a long awaited reunion. Mr. Mitchell was sent away as part of the Sixties Scoop, in which hundreds of Indigenous children were taken away from their families, and put up for adoption. Before the age of five, he lived in various foster homes. And then he was sent thirteen thousand kilometers away, to live with a foster family in New Zealand. As a teenager, Mr. Mitchell found out he was Metis, from Canada. He demanded to be sent home. He was told he had no family there. But he didn't give up on his search. And now, 20 years later, he is back home. Mr. Mitchell arrived in Winnipeg yesterday to meet his brother and sister at the airport. CBC Winnipeg was there for that moment.

SOUNDCLIP

Brent Mitchel: I've been waiting so long and I've finally found well… part of my family, a big part. And it's been a search. I never thought I was going to happen. I thought I'd be long dead and buried, but we finally found one another. My stomach has been going absolutely bananas all day. I haven't been able to eat anything. I don't know about you guys, but the trip is worth it. I want to find out about mom, find out where she's buried. I've always held on to my Canadian passport all the time I've been in New Zealand. I’ve never wanted to be a New Zealand citizen because it just means more to me. Where I come from — my roots — are here. This is family. This is part of me. I’ve been wanting it all my life, and a lot of people helped me get here, started this journey for me. And just this year, I was here in March, and it started then. I hoped I’d meet family then, but I didn't. Now here we are. I think.

PENNY CARBERRY: It's wonderful.

BM: We’re not even halfway through the year, you know? 2017 in the best year in my life ever.

CH: That was Brent Mitchell, speaking to CBC Winnipeg yesterday. He had just reunited with his brother Ron Mitchell and his sister Penny Carberry at the airport, after searching for his family for 20 years.

[Music: Electronica]

Hobby Lobby

Guest: Joel Baden

CH: Hobby Lobby is known for promoting evangelical Christian values. It's why the American arts-and-crafts chain imported thousands of artifacts from Iraq. The company had planned to display them in a bible museum. But at some point in that process, someone appears to have broken a commandment: “Thou shalt not steal.” Now, Hobby Lobby has agreed to hand the artifacts over because prosecutors say it ignored warnings that they may have been looted from historical sites. Joel Baden has been following this story. He's a professor of the Hebrew Bible at the Yale Divinity School. He broke the news about the FBI investigation into Hobby Lobby back in 2015. He is in New Haven, Connecticut.

LL: Mr. Baden, tell us about the settlement that was reached today? What the prosecutors found?

JOEL BADEN: In about 2010, Hobby Lobby was in the process of importing some cuneiform antiquities from Iraq that they were getting from some Israeli dealers. And some of the shipments of those artifacts were improperly filled out when it comes to their paperwork. Their import paperwork was essentially not factual and some of these shipments were seized by U.S. Customs, thus beginning a federal investigation into these illegally imported antiquities. And that investigation lasted from 2011 until just yesterday.

LL: Has Hobby Lobby then admitted that it did something wrong, and what and what is the penalty that is being made to pay?

JB: Technically this complaint is not against Hobby Lobby. This is a civil forfeiture, and those are somewhat odd in that the complaint is technically made against the objects themselves. The accused in this case, as it were, are the cuneiform tablets. Hobby Lobby technically is not being charged with anything. And in part that's because it was the dealers from whom they had purchased them that shipped them with their illegal paperwork. So Hobby Lobby is simply admitting that these items were illegally brought into the country and are giving them up to the U.S. government as effectively contraband.

LL: Are they also paying a fine?

JB: They are paying three million dollars. It’s not quite a fine. It is intended to cover other items that they may have shipped in a similar manner.

LL: What sort of artifacts had Hobby Lobby purchased?

JB: So in terms of this complaint, they had purchased about fifty five hundred cuneiform documents. That is texts from what is now Iraq from around 3,000 years ago, written in cuneiform script, which is that funny little wedge-shaped script it's nearly impossible to read. These texts are quite small. Most of them would fit in the palm of your hand. They are, mostly, fairly benign kinds of economic texts and lists. Nothing for which the content would excite anybody, but they speak to the world of the ancient Near-East, from which the Bible emerged.

LL: What is their value?

JB: Well, they were purchased by Hobby Lobby for 1.6 million dollars, which gives you some sense of their worth. One can guess that they would go for more money were they sort of properly authenticated and documented.

LL: What do we know about how the artifacts made their way out of Iraq?

JB: Actually, we know very little about that. And that is in large part the problem. There is no paper trail leading them back to their country of origin. We don't know whether they were bought on an antiquities market in Iraq, or if they were looted from Iraq? What the Department of Justice has said in its press statement and its complaint is the fact that these were sort of shipped illegally and their identity was hidden is consistent with the kind of behavior you see when you're dealing with looted artifacts.

LL: And prosecutors have said that Hobby Lobby should have seen the red flags in all of this. So how convincing is their claim that they simply didn't know?

JB: They probably should have known that something was fishy with this purchase. In so far as it didn't have the appropriate paperwork or export licenses from Iraq allowing it to leave the country. And certainly, one would think, once shipments started showing up on Hobby Lobby doorstep which were patently, falsely mislabelled. These were imported under “hand-crafted tile samples”, and they were said that they came from Turkey. And they were only a few hundred dollars for hundreds of them at a time. You know they sort of have what I guess I would call “barely plausible deniability”. But I think on the legal front, it's probably un-prosecutable in that regard.

LL: Smuggled artifacts have been a problem in this region for a long time. Is there any sense authorities are getting things under control?

JB: Sadly, the sense is that things are continuing as they have been, if not in fact getting worse. In recent years, we've become more aware of the problems of taking cultural heritage out of their countries of origin. Laws have been put in place both in the U.S. and in various countries protecting those artifacts. The problem is that essentially in the wake of the first Iraq war and the regional destabilization that followed from that, including the rise of various groups such as the Taliban and now ISIS, is that the lack of strong central government has essentially given free rein to a lot of these groups to go ahead and start digging things out of the ground, selling them to dealers and westerners who are looking to enhance their private collections and in some cases funding their activities at least in part.

LL: This isn't the first time hobby lobby has been in the news. They were at the center of a Supreme Court battle to avoid paying insurance coverage for contraception on religious grounds. But it is the first time they've made news for violating import rules and getting in trouble like this. As someone who's been working on a book about Hobby Lobby and its billionaire owners, how consistent is this smuggling case with the family's history?

JB: So this is a really interesting question. Virtually everything that Hobby Lobby does has an eye towards a very deep seated faith commitment — a really genuine and heartfelt one — the money that Hobby Lobby makes in its business is then turned around and gave to charity. They support all sorts of mostly evangelical Christian missions. It's very easy to say you know in this case they've done something that looks quite nefarious, isn't that inconsistent with the sort of Christianity and Christian morality that they profess? But they also have a very strong business sense. I mean these are incredibly savvy business owners, who took a family-run company into this billion dollar industry. They are generally willing to push the envelope when it comes to their business dealings so that they can maximize their profits so that they can then turn this around for what they see as the real mission, which is their evangelical Christian ministry.

LL: Mr. Baden, thank you for your time.

JB: My pleasure. Thank you so much for talking.

LL: Bye bye.

CH: That was Joel Baden, professor of the Hebrew Bible at the Yale Divinity School. He's a co-author of the forthcoming book “Bible Nation: The United States of Hobby Lobby.” He's in New Haven.

From Our Archives: Spam anniversary

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: The Spam song]

ANNOUNCER: When you want to serve delicious meals for your family, you don't say ham; you say Spam.

CH: In an interview with the New Yorker published in August of 1945, Jay Hormel, the magazine informs us the emphasis is on the first syllable sounded both bitter and defiant. “I don't care,” he said. “Spam's fine food. There's nothing in it but shoulder of pork and the know-how of cooking it, none of the mysterious ingredients soldiers claimed to have found in it.” Well, that know how was Mr. Hormel's. He invented Spam, the name of which squishes together the words “spiced” and “ham” like the product itself squishes together pork, water, salt, potato starch, sugar and sodium nitrate. And this year marks the 80th anniversary of the stuff, which is why in tribute, we created a loop this jingle from a 1989 Spam commercial. It will go on forever. Actually, please turn it off immediately! Thank you. As Mr. Hormel mentioned, the canned meat became a dietary staple for American troops during the Second World War. Then it became a staple of Asian and, especially, Hawaiian supermarkets. And Monty Python’s song about it became a staple of nerd parties, although I can't remember the tune right now because of that spam jingle, which may have actually turned my brain to Spam. And speaking of turning our brains to Spam, we did just that earlier. And our brains remembered an interview on this program back in 1993, when guest host Elizabeth Palmer spoke with a man named David Arnsberger. I’ll let the late Alan Maitland set it up.

SOUNDCLIP

ALAN MAITLAND: His friends call him the “Potentate of the Potted Pork Party”, and rightly so. David Arnesberger has been running the Austinm Texas Spamarama for 17 years. So when it comes to Spam, he's seen it all and pretty much done it all, you'd think. Mr. Arnesberger is in Manchaca, Texas.

ELIZABETH Palmer: Mr. Arnesberger, this is your 17th Annual Spamarama in Austin. What do you do to celebrate 17 years of Spam?

DAVID ARNSBERGER: Well, just about what we do every year, except for just a little bit more. We put a little bit more Spam-ness into it. Are you familiar with Spamarama?

EP: No, I'm familiar with spam, but not the rama.

DA: Well basically, like you said, about 17 years ago we started this cook-off where the main rule was you had to use Spam in your dish. And it progressed into kind of this aberrant event where people were entering these things like Swedish Spam facials and you know Spam carvings and Spam sculptures and all kinds of bizarre things. There were people that actually also entered culinary recipes and things to.

EP: Can you just go back to the Swedish Spam facial for a second?

DA: Do I have to? Yes, OK.

EP: Yeah, what's the recipe or how do you do it?

DA: That entry was these three girls in like beautician outfits, you know the white jackets and everything, and they had a young man that sat there and let them rub this Spam paste. I think they used like mud from the Dead Sea mixed with Spam. And they rubbed it into this guy's face while he sat there; that was their entry. You didn't actually have to taste it see. Everybody gets judged in taste and showmanship, but some people just answer something that's not to be tasted. Some people enter things you wish you wouldn't have to taste. But that's one of the other rules: at the judge's command, the entrant must taste his own dish first.

EP: And then you have this culinary event, I mean do you like Spam for a start?

DA: Well it kind of reminds me of meat.

EP: You’re a Texan, you should be into beef.

DA: Well, I used to be, you know? But they say is not that healthy for ya. I have a steak every now and then, and once a year maybe taste the winning entry at the Spamarama, but mostly we just use it to have fun with.

EP: What was the winning entry last year?

DA: It was Spamaccine alfredo, he actually made homemade pasta and actually had the Spam in the pasta. It was edible.

CH: High praise! David Arnesberger, founder of the Austin, Texas event Spamarama speaking with guest host Elizabeth Palmer on As It Happens in March of 1993. Spamarama ended in 2007, after 31 years, an impressive life-Spam. Well happy anniversary Spam. You don't look a day over… I'd rather not look at you for too long if that's OK?

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July 6, 2017 episode transcript

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