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The AIH Transcript for July 5, 2017

Hosts: Laura Lynch and Chris Howden

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

LL: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch.

CH: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

LL: The unsettling settlement. The Liberal government will apologize to Omar Khadr, and pay him more than ten million dollars – and former Conservative cabinet minister Tony Clement tells us that's "morally repugnant".

CH: An inadequate Initial Public Offering. A Silicon Valley CEO apologizes online for sexually harassing women – and then another female entrepreneur comes forward, alleging that he wasn't so contrite when he assaulted her.

LL: In February, an Indigenous woman was hit in the stomach by a trailer hitch thrown from a passing car. Yesterday, she died. And tonight, her cousin tells us she never stopped thinking of others before herself.

CH: Undiplomatic channel. A coalition led by Saudi Arabia says one of the conditions for lifting sanctions on Qatar is for the country to shut down Al Jazeera – but today, Qatar said it won't submit to that kind of remote control.

LL: A matter of alma mater. A group of Indigenous students says their school is named for one of the architects of Canada's residential schools – so they want Ryerson University to stop being Ryerson University.

CH: And... his customers are fit to be tied – because he no longer is. For a very long time, a Regina deli owner's hair was business in front, party in the back. But now, he's all business – and he'll explain why he finally reached the cut-off point.
As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that guesses once you mull it over, it's mullet over.

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Part 1: Khadr: Clement, trailer hitch death, Carlo's ponytail

Khadr: Clement

Guest: Tony Clement

CHRIS HOWDEN: "No multi-million dollar payouts to terrorists!"
That's how the Conservatives close their petition against the government's reported settlement with Omar Khadr.
The deal would see Mr. Khadr drop his lawsuit, which argues that successive Canadian governments allowed him to be illegally detained and abused at the US detention centre in Guantanamo. In exchange, Mr Khadr would get an apology and 10-point-5 million dollars.
But Mr. Khadr was convicted by a US military tribunal of killing a United States soldier in Afghanistan. And Tony Clement says Canadians shouldn't be making him rich. Mr. Clement is the Conservative Public Safety Critic. We reached him in Muskoka, Ontario.

LAURA LYNCH: Mr. Clement, what makes you think you could have struck a better deal if you were still in power?

TONY CLEMENT: Well look I think the first thing you have to indicate is that this is a case that is distinguishable from other cases where there's been a gift payment to someone who has suffered. In this case the person was convicted of terrorism, pleaded guilty to that act. So I think in a court of law that means something. And if the Liberal Cabinet is getting contrary advice, I would seek independent legal advice because I think that that you can distinguish the case from other cases.

LL: Let's pick that apart a little bit. You talk about him being convicted. This is a settlement that we're talking about now for a lawsuit that was brought by Mr. Khadr after the Supreme Court found the Canadian government's handling of his detention at Guantanamo to be a violation of Canadian law. And bear with me, I just want to read for you and our listeners a couple of quotes from the judgment. Quote: “The interrogation of a youth detained without access to counsel to elicit statements about serious criminal charges while knowing the youth had been subjected to sleep deprivation and while knowing that the fruits of the interrogations would be shared with the prosecutors offends the most basic Canadian standards about the treatment of detained youth suspects. Canada's participation in the illegal process in place at Guantanamo Bay clearly violated Canada's binding international obligations.”
After language like that, after a unanimous Supreme Court ruling like that, how much choice did the government have?

TC: Well look, I think the first thing I would say is if Mr. Khadr wants to sue someone, go ahead and sue the Americans. And they're the ones who perpetrated these acts against him. And I acknowledge the case that you're reporting and that is a decision that one has to respect. But the next phase is that Mr. Khadr and his lawyers are now suing the government of Canada which means the taxpayers of Canada I believe the lawsuit was for 20 million dollars. The settlement is for 10 million dollars which would make Mr. Khadr immediately one of the richest men in Canada. So in that respect, it offends the moral conscience of, a number of people believe me. My constituency office yesterday today has been inundated by callers who are incensed by this. These are Canadians, citizens, taxpayers, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. I'm sure this is being experienced by MPs home for the holidays across this entire nation.

LL: So again, what would you have done had you been in government? Would you have fought the case all the way because there's a good chance that it might have been more than a 10 million dollar judgment?

TC: Well look, I think that as I say, I would distinguish this case from every other case. Mr. Khadr admitted to the offense, admitted to the terrorists–

LL: We’re going around a bit in circles though. That confession was the fruit of the torture and abuse that he suffered in Guantanamo.

TC: Laura, people know, the family business of this family was terrorism. The same kind of terrorism, same kind of organization al-Qaeda that killed 25 Canadians on 9/11. So everybody knows what the family business of this family is.

LL: And as the Supreme Court noted, he was a child.

TC: And we have we have a rule of law in this country, this is how it works. If you're a juvenile and you commit an offense, you could be tried as a juvenile. Or if the offense is big enough, you can be tried as an adult. [Crosstalk].

LL: Well perhaps we could have done that, but we were unable to try him in our courts because we left him in Guantanamo and didn't try to bring him back to Canada.

TC: Here's the deal. Here's what your listeners should know if they're interested. The Conservative Party has a petition that’s going around that will plead with the Liberal Government to ensure that Mr. Khadr, if he feels that he wants to make amends, I think that's a perfectly good thing to do. The money should go to the widow and the two children of the victim that was killed. That's where the money should go.

LL: Mr. Clement I just want to ask you. He was he was raised by his father who was a known terrorist. We know that. He was 15 years old when he was captured. We know that. He maintained his innocence for eight years, was allegedly tortured, signed a plea deal to get out of Guantanamo. And I'm just asking you, does any of that raise any issues for you?

TC: No, I think that if you are going to raise the issue that he recanted, I don't believe him. As I say, the family business that he was involved in was bomb-making and that terrorist activity. He was involved in a firefight that killed an American medic.
The only reason why Mr. Khadr was alive today is because other U.S. medics on the scene saved his life even while their comrade was dying. So I have no sympathy for his position whatsoever. And I think most Canadians are the same way. He is living a life of freedom in Canada. That's what the courts have decided and I'm not railing against that. But to give this man another $10 million and a formal apology from the Prime Minister of this country is way overboard and every Canadian that I've talked to knows this.

LL: When the Supreme Court of Canada says the federal government failed in its duty to uphold Khadr’s rights, what do you say to that?

TC: I would say that that is a decision of the Supreme Court of Canada. This decision is $10 million dolars–

LL: But do you agree with that? Do you agree that the government failed to uphold his rights?

TC: I would love to respond. I'd love to respond to you. So that is the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada. The decision of the Liberal Cabinet is to award this man 10 billion dollars and that's where we disagree on.

LL: And they would say, if they were talking but they're not, the only reason they have to do this is because of what previous governments did.

TC: Well you know they can finger point all they want. To do that to make this kind of settlement, to have the settlement out there, yesterday, which was the Fourth of July, is quite offensive I'm sure to a number of our American neighbors. And I just think it's absolutely morally repugnant and the wrong thing to do. And I and a number of Canadians feel the same way I do.

LL: You've said that the money, you’ve said it to us, that the money should go to Sergeant Speer's widow. There is so much tragedy around this story on every level especially for her. She lost her husband. Do you worry about playing politics with her tragedy?

TC: I worry that the Liberal government is playing politics with this issue. But you know…

LL: How are the Liberals playing politics with this?

TC: I believe that they could have done the right thing, which was to defend Canadian taxpayers and the Canadian government position. They chose not to. So that's the politics they're playing. That’s the decision of a Liberal Cabinet which is full of Liberal politicians. That's what I mean.

LL: Mr. Clement, thank you for your time. Thanks very much for the opportunity. Bye-bye.

TC: Bye-bye.

CH: Tony Clement is the Conservative Public Safety Critic. We reached him in Muskoka, Ontario.

Trailer hitch death

Guest: Debbie Kakagamic

CH: Barb Kentner died yesterday at 5 in the morning. Her family would tell you they knew it was coming. But also that her death is impossible to accept.
We told you about Ms. Kentner earlier this year. She was a 34-year-old Indigenous mother who lived in Thunder Bay, Ontario. In January, Ms. Kentner was badly injured after someone in a passing car threw a trailer hitch out of the window. It hit her hard in the stomach. Her sister, whom we spoke to at the time, told us the person in the car had yelled "I got one." Ms. Kentner required surgery for her injuries. But later, her condition got worse. She died this week of organ failure.
One person in that car was later charged with aggravated assault. That charge could now be upgraded.
Debbie Kakagamic was Barb's cousin. She spent the last weeks and months at Barb's bedside. We reached Ms. Kakagamic in Sioux Lookout, where she lives.

LL: Ms. Kakagamic, I am very sorry for the loss of your cousin Barb.

DEBBIE KAKAGAMIC: Thank you very much.

LL: She was only 34 years old. She should have… had her whole life ahead of her and she hears she was living out her final days in a hospice. What was it like for you to see your cousin in this state?

DK: It was really hard. She was in a lot of pain and she was suffering. It was not easy to see. But I am thankful that I had that time and was able to spend time with her.

LL: What were those final days like for you and your family spending time with Barb?

DK: Her sister Melissa was there around the clock. Her daughter Serena and only 16 years old, came to visit off and on. It was really difficult for her when she did come there. She was so good to her mom. You can see the love between the two of them. Serena would climb in her bed with her and lay with her and rub her and hold her hands and fix her blanket. That was very hard to watch because it was so intimate, the love that they shared. Barbara was always very very family oriented and she loved every family member and we all loved her. She was talking with her eyes closed and she was saying “Archer is that you, Archer?” Which is my little grandson. He’s only a year and a half. And he says “Barb.”
And one thing that she did do is, she was fumbling with the remote and she was very very weak and couldn't really hold it or do anything. So I said “Barb let me do that for you. What would you like to do?” And then she says “I'm changing the channel. I'll do it myself.” And it must have took like 10 minutes for her struggling and struggling, and she changed the channel to a children's show and that was for Archer and that's the Barb that we all know. Even though she was suffering and hurting and going to be leaving us soon, she still thought of others and thought of the children.

LL: That is remarkable. And her death just this marks a horrible end to a story that we told our listeners back in February when Barb's sister told us about that evening in January when someone threw a trailer hitch at Barb out of a passing car. When you first heard about what had happened to Barb how did you react?

DK: I was really angry. I was very angry at first that somebody would do such a thing and then I was angry that it was my family. Barb's very very kind-hearted and it just was a terrific act of I feel racism. I was I was angry.

LL: Why did you feel it was racism?

DK: Well talking to Melissa, she was saying that when they, the person through the hitch out of the window, they yelled, they swore, and then said “I got one of them.” So to me they had been driving around looking for an Aboriginal person and found one which happened to be Barb.

LL: An 18 year old man was charged with aggravated assault after the incident and that charge could change now that Barb has actually died. I'm wondering what do you believe should happen with the case?

DK: Well I'm hoping the charges are upgraded and I'm thinking that there are other people involved that were in the vehicle, they should all have some type of charge as well. I'm certain that they must know exactly what they were doing. The driver had to pull up alongside, and slow down. And it was like a game for them.

LL: There were calls for the Thunder Bay police to classify this as a hate crime, and they've never done so, should they?

DK: Yes they've declined doing that, but I believe that they should, to me it's obvious it was a hate crime.

LL: At a meeting today in Thunder Bay, some Indigenous families and cheifs said it's no longer safe for their children to attend school there because of racist incidents, and I'm wondering what is it like to be an Indigenous person living in Northern Ontario right now?

DK: Well as a mother, I'm a mother. I have seven children of my own. I also have 11 grandchildren. And I'm afraid for them every day, every single day that they leave the house. You just never know what is going to happen to them.

LL: Has anything ever happened to them.

DK: One of my daughters, yes. She is very dark skinned. And people have thrown things at her. Someone tried to grab her and pull her into a vehicle. Things like that. I'm very worried about my son though in Thunder Bay because there have been numerous young Aboriginal boys as we all know ending up in the river somehow. And this has to stop… like what is happening to our children.

LL: How will you remember Barb?

DK: I close my eyes and I think about her when she was a bit younger, and she was beautiful and full of life and fun. She had a great sense of humour and she was caring. That's the Barb that I know.

LL: It was interesting on Facebook you posted photos of a table full of flowers that were sent to Barb. How did you react to that before her death?

DK: Every day when they would come in, I would take them over to her bedside, and tell her “Barb, look at these. Someone sent you these beautiful flowers”. And she would open her eyes and they would flutter and she would look at them. And for me, she couldn't believe that someone sent her flowers and they were not all just from family and friends. There were some from people we don't even know, concerned citizens of Thunder Bay. I would let her smell them and they were so beautiful. And tears would silently run down her face every single time I showed her flowers. She couldn't believe that people cared. People cared about her and what had happened to her. People are sharing her story and people who are grieving with us, with the family. I think that she will never be forgotten. And she's going to live on. She will be a symbol of the change that's to come.

LL: Ms. Kakagamic, I think that is a strong tribute to your cousin's memory. I know this has been difficult and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to talk to us.

DK: Thank you very much.

LL: Bye-bye.

DK: Bye.

CH: Debbie Kakagamic is the cousin of Barb Kentner. Ms. Kentner was an Indigenous woman in Thunder Bay who was struck by a trailer hitch from a passing car last January. She died yesterday, at the age of 34.

[Music]

Carlo’s ponytail

Guest: Carlo Giambattista

CH: @jamesguy50, wrote: "Tell me it isn't true!" @Beartholemue simply tweeted, "Nooooooo!!!!!" With five exclamation points.
When an As It Happens producer noticed these tweets, we knew something momentous had happened. Something, we learned, involving the owner of the Italian Star Deli in Regina – a man named Carlo Giambattista.
He's fine. Never been better, really. But evidently, his customers are experiencing some sense of loss that we thought he might be able to explain. So we reached Mr. Giambattista in Regina.

LL: Mr. Giambattista what have you done?

CARLO GIAMBATTISTA: You know, I didn't think I did anything, Laura. But all of a sudden, my God. Yeah, I thought a simple little cut, a little trim would have been OK. But looks like something has happened here so it's a little embarrassing to me right now. [Laughs]

LL: But you really did cut off the ponytail, right?

CG: Yeah I cut off… you know I kind of, you know, Laura, it was a ponytail at left but it was one of them bad looking mullets. It was a 1975 Iraq you know, kind of sitting in there with open roof kind of haircut. So I'm 57 years old, so it was a mullet from heck. So that’s what I cut off.

LL: Is that why you did it?

CG: I did that, yeah. I looked at a picture a couple of days ago before I did it and I said "That's really how I look." I should have looked at more pictures throughout the years but that's why I did it. It was enough. I had it all my life.

LL: Wait a second, you've had it all your life? Tell me how many years that really is.

CG: From the time I graduated, this would be '79. Couple of years after that you know the hair started to get longer and longer. I played in bands and what not so I kept it like that. And then it turned into a mullet probably about 10, 15 years ago. So it’s been from ’79 onwards that it’s been at the back of my head. I don't know how that happened. So it’s quite a while.

LL: A change like that can sometimes be traumatic. How does it feel not to have that swinging around back there anymore?

CG: You know I grab it every once in a while. You know it's kind of weird because I thought maybe some people wouldn't like what's going on, but I know I got to live in the skin. So it's not so bad. You know Laura, I'm loving it I feel like taking my shirt off and running down the street saying “Yes I am free, man. I really feel like doing that. I feel good about it. So I think after time, something else will have to happen to make something stand up. But I feel good about him, man and I really do.”

LL: You know a lot of a lot of guys who go through a midlife crisis, they buy a car or something. They don't cut their hair off.

CG: Man, listen, I tell you, you know I don't want to ride a motorcycle, I don't want to have a mischief. I don't want these things so I cut my hair so I make good on that.

LL: What do your wife and kids think?

CG: You know my wife, she's all in favour. She says, whatever you do it's good. So when I did it, she says “That was the best thing you ever did.” My kids my son, Gino and my daughter, Marina, they were a little bit you know a little bit surprised because you know they see me all the time. But my son has a ponytail but a legit ponytail. They're OK with it too so they're going to move on with that. I don't think it's going to be life-ending. I hope not.

LL: But what about all your customers on Twitter. Did you have any idea that the haircut would trigger a reaction like this?

CG: You know, Laura, no. I thought maybe a few people would sit there and comment on it but I never thought, I never expected. Believe me, if I knew that that was going to happen I might have kept it because I'm not looking for the attention. So I never would have thought that ever would happen. And now I’ve seen, as it goes on, because now we're back at work as we're closed for weeks because we did renovations in the business. So we did the renovations, I cut the hair so I have the week just by myself. Now the customers are seeing it as… it’s kind of funny because they look at you and you don't want to see something like it's like “Oh, something happened”. But I think it's going to be interesting, man.

LL: I saw that someone tweeted that they wondered whether your sandwiches were going to taste the same.

CG: I hope so. I hope it doesn't affect anything like that. Yeah. You know the paninos should taste the same. They'll be the same as ever. But without that kind of, you know look of whatever that mullet gave it. I don't think it's making anything better. For sure it’s not.

LL: Where is the ponytail?

CG: So I've got it in a bag. So the gentleman that cut it, you know, he cut it off and he put it in a bag. So my wife has got it somewhere, I don't know where it is now. I haven't seen for a while. It's sitting in a bag I think in a safe place. I might have to put it in a safety deposit I think after today. [Laughs].

LL: You don’t want to put it out on display?

CG: No, are you kidding? I don't want to have to look at it again. No. I'm done with that one. We'll put it away if it gains any kind of value in time which I'm sure it won't.

LL: You know I mentioned the idea of a midlife crisis, and you mentioned earlier that you used to play in bands. Do you think that the ponytail was just you trying to hold onto to your younger man's dream of being a rockstar?

CG: You got it, man. You hit it, absolutely. You know people hold on to things and that's definitely it because I never put this, Laura, this mullet out of its elastic. It was always in a ponytail. I also played in bands. When I played in bands I had the hair out.
Now at 57, are you kidding? Who's going to call me to play drums? Nobody. So it's gone. So if they want me back, I still got that ponytail in the bag. I'll tape that back on if anyone wants me.

LL: Mr. Giambattista, thank you for taking some time to talk to us.

CG: I appreciate the call. Thank you very much.

LL: Bye-bye.

CG: Ciao.

CH: That was Carlo Giambattista from the Italian Star Deli in Regina, Saskatchewan. That's where we reached him. And if you'd like to see some before-and-after pictures of Mr. Giambattista's hair, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Edmonton Branding

CH: Edmonton. It's Edmonton. Obviously, Edmonton is Edmonton. Period. But Edmonton is also Edmonton-maple-leaf-period now. So get used to it.
I know you think you already are, but listen: before yesterday, we all just knew Edmonton was Edmonton. Capital of Alberta. Home of the Oilers, the West Edmonton Mall, and the Telephone Historical Centre. Now, we know Edmonton isn't just Edmonton – it's "Edmonton".
I'm not being totally accurate. I mean, yes, Edmonton is definitely Edmonton. And yes, yesterday, Brad Ferguson of the Edmonton Economic Development Corporation presented the results of a years-long re-branding exercise to the city's Executive Committee. And yes, one of the results is what Mr. Ferguson called the city's new "one-word brand". That one word is: Edmonton.
To be clear, though, it's EDMONTON in big white block letters on a black background, with a tiny maple leaf as a period. To be more clear, it's not actually Edmonton's brand or slogan, or even logo. It's a "wordmark". Actually, that's less clear.
The point is, though, the logo – sorry, "wordmark" – is actually just one tiny element of Edmonton's re-branding program. That program is intended to attract businesses and educated young people to Canada's fastest-growing city. As the 35-page re-branding document says, quote, "If you have the courage to take an idea to reality, to build, to make something, Edmonton is your city." Unquote.
Still, despite the elaborate plan, the logo – sorry, "wordmark" – is getting all the attention. It seems people find it amusing that Edmonton – which is, by definition, Edmonton – has redefined itself as Edmonton. But hey, it is what it is. Which is what it was, but also what it will be.

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Part 2: Silicon Valley case, Qatar latest, Ryerson name fight

Silicon Valley case

Guest: Cheryl Yeoh

CHRIS HOWDEN: Just weeks after Uber's CEO resigned over allegations of sexual assault at his company, another scandal is brewing in Silicon Valley.
Over the weekend, Dave McClure – the co-founder of the firm 500 Start-ups – resigned from his position. He did so after an entrepreneur claimed that he sent her inappropriate messages after discussing a potential job offer with her.
Mr. McClure apologized to her directly in a blog post titled, "I'm a creep. I'm sorry." In that same post, he also admitted that he had behaved inappropriately toward other women. And since that apology, another woman has come forward with allegations. Cheryl Yeoh says Mr. McClure assaulted her in her apartment three years ago.
Ms. Yeoh is the CEO of Cheryl Yeoh and Co. We reached her in San Francisco.

LAURA LYNCH: Ms. Yeoh, why did you decide to come out with a blog post detailing your experience working with Dave McClure?

CHERYL YEOH: Well I feel like at that point, someone had already exposed him on a more relatively minor case compared to mine, and then following that New York Times article exposure, he himself wrote a public apology saying that he's a creep and that he was inappropriate to multiple women and that he's stepping down from being CEO of 500 Start-ups. So at that point I saw a flood of support for him and I felt like that didn't do it justice to other women whom he's harassed. And I was one of the people who sexually harassed at my own apartment and I felt like if I don't come out and tell the truth now people are going to condone his behavior.

LL: You say this happened at your apartment. Why were all of you getting together at your apartment.

CY: I took on a new job in Malaysia. I moved there from San Francisco to lead a government agency to spur innovation. So Dave was in town too. We were discussing setting up an accelerator in Malaysia. So he came to my board meeting and then after the meeting, him and a few business partners decided to come to my place to brainstorm ideas for the accelerator. In tech, it's very typical to continue discussions outside of business hours.

LL: And briefly what happened?

CY: So you know, we chatted but he started pouring whiskey in my cup and he kept pouring it even though I hadn't finished it so I couldn't quite keep track of how much I was drinking. But I was aware about it. And I was, I was cautious. I texted my boyfriend at the time, “Hey Dave is pouring a lot of alcohol in my cup. I'm not sure why.”
Anyway we chatted for a long time and then it was getting so late that people started leaving. Everyone left at the same time except him. So I asked you know “Hey Dave, like are you ordering and Uber? Are you leaving?” He's like “No.” And I'm like “OK, are you drunk? Do you want to crash here?” And I showed him the couch in the guest room and as he walked into the guest room, so I walked into my room and then he followed me and came into my room and propositioned me to sleep with him.
And at that point I was like “No I have a boyfriend. We talked about him. And you have a wife. Would you like to leave?” So I showed him the door and that was when he backed me into a corner and he started kissing me. And I firmly said no and pushed him away. And that was when I opened a door and made sure he was out. And he said things like “Just this one time. I really like women who are smart and strong like you. It was pretty traumatic.”

LL: Did you ever try to report the incident to police?

CY: No I didn't. I didn't. I was in Malaysia, right? And I don't know how the police would take these incidents there. And he was a very powerful and influential guy, and we had a deal on the table that we were signing that week. And I was very public facing the CEO of a government agency at the time. I didn't feel like I could.

LL: I should say that none of the allegations have been proven in court. Did you have contact with him before you posted your response to his apology?

CY: Yes I did what I suggested in my posts was for women to write down the account and send it to the perpetrator. So I sent it to him a day or two before I posted the post. He wrote back, apologized and said he was ashamed of his actions and he couldn't deny any of it.

LL: And how did you react when you saw that?

CY: Well I felt like, thank you for finally apologizing. But part of me felt like he did it because he's already been exposed.

LL: Has he said anything more since your post went online?

CY: No I have not talked to him ever since.

LL: He hasn't been charged with anything criminally. Do you know of anyone who is planning to take action?

CY: There has been many reports. Even 500 are now receiving a few reports. But I don't know if anyone's pressing charges. My incident happened overseas. So it's not even under the U.S. jurisdiction so technically I can't even press charges here. I am actually now looking to see if I can press charges in Malaysia.

LL: These allegations come in the wake of a series of revelations about sexual harassment against women and minorities working in the tech industry that come from companies such as Uber.
So how common is it for women in the startup industries to experience incidents of sexual assault and inappropriate behavior from their peers?

CY: I can only speak from experience. I have experienced it so many times over and over again that sometimes I become immune to it. And you know, we kind of feel like this is just a game we had to play. It sucks. It's not it's not great and it doesn't mean it's right. It's just that we don't have a better way out.
But it's not a tech industry thing. It is also in finance. It's in media. It’s in entertainment, fashion… but I think it's surfacing in the tech start-up space because people are very vocal in tech. And we have a somewhat more transparent start-up culture. And I think these things come out more often. But I don't think it's just a tech thing.

LL: Christine Tsai was the CEO of the company Dave McClure worked out, has released an apology. And she said his behavior was unacceptable not reflective of the company's culture and values. And she also noted they change the leadership structures before he resigned. What do you make of her response?

CY: I thought it was a little bit reactive. But I spoke to them before I published my posts and I told them my account, and they were very supportive of me during it. The problem was that nobody was willing to come on record to put their name on it. And so, they didn't have any power to get Dave to resign because they couldn't fire Dave. He was the only one who had to step down. And so because they didn't have any solid proof, they couldn't do it.

LL: So what do you think needs to happen so situations like yours won't happen again to others in the industry?

CY: So now that I think oh awareness is high and people are finally taking it seriously, it is different now, I hope going forward.

LL: So I think companies need to define the level of harassment. Because like a sexist comment, or an imperfect comment is very different from being pushed to the wall and being touched or kissed unwanted. So I think given that there are now policies being created, women should become more comfortable coming out and reporting it. If they don't feel comfortable, I still think they should write down everything that happened to them and either e-mail it to the offender if they're comfortable. If they're not, talk to someone close, email it to themselves, so to have a timestamp of when it happened and so that they don't forget the details after time has passed. And when they are in a good position to do it, then they should report it.

LL: Ms. Yeoh, thank you.

CY: Thank you.

LL: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Cheryl Yeoh. We reached her in San Francisco. We reached out to former 500 Start-ups co-founder Dave McClure for his response to Ms. Yeoh's allegations. We got no answer. But in an apology published over the weekend, Mr. McClure did respond to other allegations of sexual harassment, from other women. He wrote, quote: "I put people in compromising and inappropriate situations, and I selfishly took advantage of those situations where I should have known better. My behaviour was inexcusable and wrong." Unquote.

[Music]

Qatar latest

Guest: Jamal Elshayyal

JD: With no immediate end in sight for the Qatar crisis, the fate of journalists working for the Doha-based Al Jazeera network still hangs in the balance.
A coalition of Arab states led by Saudi Arabia have demanded the Qatari-owned network be shut down, as one of the main conditions for lifting their embargo. The Saudi-led coalition accuses the tiny, oil- and gas-rich kingdom of supporting terrorism. The countries severed all diplomatic ties with Qatar last month.
Today was the deadline for Qatar to formally respond to the demands made by its neighbours. It has rejected their ultimatum.
Jamal Elshayyal is a senior correspondent for al-Jazeera English. He joined us from Doha, Qatar.

LL: Mr. Elshayyal, what is the mood like for you when your colleagues at Al Jazeera right now?

JAMAL ELSHAYYAL: I think it's one of defiance in the face of attempts to silence free speech and to quash freedom of the press in a region that is in most need of institutions like Al-Jazeera, institutions that give a platform to the voiceless. This isn't the first time that we've come under attack. It may be one of the more serious, more intense attacks that we've faced in our 20 plus years of history, but thankfully we've managed to remain steadfast throughout. And maybe it's testament to our work that for countries like four Egypt and Saudi Arabia, all of whom have maybe the worst human rights records in the world, and the worst freedom of speech occurs in the world are demanding our closure.

LL: How easy is it though for you to keep doing your work with the threat of closure over your heads?

JE: Of course, I mean, it would be much better for us as journalists to rather than being part of the story actually focus on reporting on other stories, so you know I'm going to lie to you, of course there's pressure to it. But people are adamant. They see this as a vindication of the job that they're doing regardless of the threats that are leveled against us.

LL: You know that the Gulf States and Egypt have accused Al-Jazeera of destabilizing the region. They say the network is used by Qatar to push forward foreign policy goals. What do you think of those claims?

JE: We say very simply our content is uploaded online. It is easily accessible for anybody who has anything against the standards or any criticism, it is very easy to point out where those mistakes were made or how we are being used as they claim to further some sort of destabilization agenda. But to just throw about false claims or to sling mud is little irresponsible to say the least. And what is important to note is the countries that are accusing us of this. These are countries like I say, Saudi Arabia where women can't drive. The United Arab Emirates and Egypt who have jailed or killed journalists.

LL: Let me put this to you though: outside of this diplomatic crisis, there are those who have been vocal critics of Al-Jazeera's coverage, including even some former journalists from the network. And the Arabic channel in particular has been criticized for anti-Semitism and inflaming sectarianism. What do you make of those critiques you've heard?

JE: Well I think it's important to note firstly, those former colleagues who worked about three months with Al-Jazeera and then it's now transpired through New York Times reports are on the payroll of the United Arab Emirates. That means I've got to take their accusations with a pinch of salt. In terms of other claim–

LL: I wasn't actually referencing him in particular I'd rather not get into that case. I'm talking about–

JE: That’s fine but I think, I think it's public knowledge so I am, but I mean I mean I think even the accusations whether it be of anti-Semitism or sectarianism that have been leveled against Al Jazeera Arabic, again it's very easy for me to throw these loaded comments. And if indeed let us imagine that those are genuine accusations that are backed up by evidence, is the solution to shut down a channel that has been awarded the Emmys, Peabodys, Royal Television Society awards, that has been recognized by the most prestigious institutions. Or is it more constructive to go to either watchdogs or to the editorial board and say “Hey guys this is what we are taking issue with. You need to fix up.” How on earth are we the recipients of these awards, if indeed our main road costs are centered on sowing division and sectarianism and anti-Semitism and all these bizarre and unfounded accusations that have been leveled against us.

LL: It is also true though that an organisation can win awards and also be a target of criticism. And I because you are saying people are flinging out accusations, I want to be a little more specific. There was shortly after the coup against Morsi in Egypt. One of your prominent anchors, Ahmed Mansour, was quoted on the Brotherhood's website saying the interim Egyptian president was a Jew carrying out an Israeli plot. Faisal al-Qassam, another presenter, once hosted a segment on whether Syria's Alawite population deserved genocide. In 2014, the channel's Iraqi affairs editor tweeted approvingly about a massacre in which the Islamic State killed more than 15 hundred Air Force cadets in Tikrit, after singling out Shia and non-Muslims. Those are specific.

JE: So let’s take them one by one. The first one you mention of Ahmed Mansour. The alleged comments were made by him on his personal Facebook page and not on the channel. What people do on their personal time, if indeed they did do that, on their personal platforms. It has nothing to do with us. The second one, of Faisal al-Qassam, of course and again this is unfortunately a classic example of misrepresentation. Faisal al-Qassam’s show, it is a very emotionally charged show where he brings people from opposite sides to discuss in a very heated debate-like manner. What he said in that specific show, and this is very clear for any person who understands Arabic, was, he said “There are those calling for x y and z.” What is your response? It was a very provocative statement and it was very clearly attributed to a third party in terms of those calls.
By the way, I'm not trying to whitewash things here in the sense that I know we don't get things perfect 100 percent. But I know that we try done well to get them perfect. We've got some of our colleagues who have either been killed or incarcerated or injured for life trying to do this work. The Arab world before Al-Jazeera came onto the scene in 1996 had a media landscape that did nothing other than cheer on dictators, autocrats, and sheikdoms. We don't get things right 100 percent but we try our best to. And when we get things wrong we expect people to come and critique us in a democratic manner, in a constructive manner, no way for us to be shot down.

LL: Mr. Elshayyal, what kind of support has the network been receiving since the demand was made?

JE: Thankfully we've received widespread support from our colleagues in many of the international media outlets across the world. Unfortunately however, I would say we haven't received the support that we would have expected from international governments or from the international community which should have been more steadfast in its rejection of this demand.

LL: Mr. Elshayyal, I thank you very much for your time.

JE: Thank you.

LL: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Jamal Elshayyal, a senior correspondent for Al Jazeera English. We reached him in Doha.

[Music]

Ryerson name fight

Guest: Sarah Dennis

CH: Some Indigenous students don't want to attend Ryerson University anymore. But it's not that they want to change schools. It's that they want the school itself to change.
Egerton Ryerson was a 19th-century Methodist minister who was a prominent thinker in this country on the subject of education. He is also connected to the establishment of the residential school system for Indigenous children. Which is why those students want the university to rename itself – and to remove a statue of Mr. Ryerson from campus.
Sarah Dennis studies social work at Ryerson. She is Anishinaabe and is a member of the school's Indigenous Students' Association. We reached her in Toronto.

LL: Ms. Dennis, why do you want Ryerson University to change its name and remove the statue of Egerton Ryerson?

SARAH DENNIS: As an Indigenous person it really represents the negative history that we have with education as Indigenous people.

LL: What exactly was Ryerson’s connection to the residential school system?

SD: Well he essentially created the blueprint for the school system where children were removed from their families and communities.

LL: But just to be clear, Ryerson actually didn't set up any residential schools did he?

SD: I actually am not knowledgeable in that level. I know that he definitely created the blueprint for the system.

LL: Now you had relatives who went to residential schools. What happened to them?

SD: I do. I have my grandfather, Wilfred Kooji, he went to Spanish residential school as well as all of his siblings.

LL: And what happened to them?

SD: like every other person who went to residential school, they definitely experienced erasure of our language and culture and were subjected to various abuses that definitely impacted my family significantly.

LL: Can I ask you what impact it had on your family?

SD: I know that my family has struggled with education. My mom the first generation to graduate a university, definitely issues with addiction, and you know, just not on not knowing our language, that's a huge it's a huge thing for me personally. I feel very inadequate as an Indigenous person not being able to understand what people are saying when they speak my language.

LL: Well given all of that then, as a First Nations student, what does it mean to you to pass by that statue of Egerton Ryerson?

SD: Well I mean I feel like just the position of the statue itself. It's very high and it leaves a very bitter feeling for me when I walk by it knowing that what that individual represents in my history, and having to come here, and it's somewhat ironic you know the fact that I'm also seeking education here.

LL: But I wonder at the same time does it give you any sense of trying to walk past that statue and say to yourself, “Well we've overcome all of this. Look at where I am now. You may be here but so am I.”

SD: Yes. But there needs to be more people like me here. We're significantly underrepresented in post-secondary institutions. There's not enough of us in school and there also are not enough Indigenous faculty members with tenured positions. Like our population is not reflected in this space whatsoever. There's definitely an under-representation of our people here, and Ryerson definitely played a significant role in that being a reality that exists today.

LL: What kind of reaction have you been getting from the student body to your proposals?

SD: There was a count down on the Ryerson student union Facebook page, countdown to Canada Day for the Resist 150 campaign, and there was a lot of a lot of backlash from the student body and also from people within the union. There was a lot of racist remarks in the comment threads.

LL: What was your reaction when you saw that?

SD: Well I mean to a certain degree I wasn't surprised. I know that unfortunately racism is a reality within our society, but it's still definitely doesn't mean that I am immune to things being painful and also feeling like I'm not welcome here.

LL: Recently Prime Minister Trudeau announced he's renaming the Langevin block on Parliament Hill due to its namesake's connection to residential schools. And Wilfred Laurier University scrapped a plan to erect statues of 22 of Canada's past prime ministers in part due to their treatment of Indigenous people and I'm wondering how far you think this should go. Should we rename all institutions or buildings that have any connection to dark periods in our history?

SD: I don't think that that is a bad idea. I think that where there's a demand for it, you know those demands should definitely be met. I mean my view is that this country began not 150 years ago. It began much longer you know way before that and like people have been occupying this this land for the better part of 13,000 years and none of the names of our institutions or a whole lot of things that are reflected in in our popular culture and structures really reflect that. And that's a problem and I really think that it's a problem that should be addressed and that people should not resist change when it comes to that because it's not hurting anybody and it's actually helping people feel like they belong because we do belong here.

LL: Ms. Dennis, thank you for your time.

SD: OK, thank you.

LL: Bye-bye.

SD: Bye.

CH: Sarah Dennis studies social work at Ryerson University. She's a member of the Indigenous students association and she is in Toronto. On its Web site Ryerson University explains that Egerton Ryerson did believe in different systems of education for Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal children. The website goes on to say quote “These beliefs influenced in part the establishment of what became the Indian residential school system that has had such a devastating impact on First Nations, Métis, and Inuit people across Canada. While Egerton Ryerson did not implement or oversee Indian Residential Schools, his ideas were used by others to create their blueprint." Unquote.
We contacted Ryerson University about this story.
A spokesperson said the student union has a meeting scheduled for July 19th to further discuss these demands. The university says it will wait till after that meeting to comment further.

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July 5, 2017 episode transcript

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