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The AIH Transcript for June 22, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CO: A catalogue of catastrophe. When Sears Canada announces store closures, serious layoffs, and restructuring, the former CEO says the retailer’s failure could have been avoided. But now it can't.

JD: Making re-arrangements. An 80-year-old Newfoundland woman contacts a band she loves with an unusual request: to change a song so it's more suitable for her eventual funeral.

CO: Mark his words. NDP Member of Parliament Romeo Saganash says it's his right to ask questions in the House of Commons in the Cree language. And even though no translation system is in place, he went ahead and did it anyway.

JD: Explosive allegations. A fitness blogger dies when a whipped cream canister blows up. One French consumer watchdog says it's been warning about the dangers of those devices for years.

CO: Curiosity killed the Kit-Kat. Rogue operatives within the CIA conducted an unethical undercover operation to manipulate a vending machine into giving them free candy. That’s before the greatest minds in international intelligence caught on.

JD: And… the unbearable likeness of de-beeing. Personally, I'd rather deal with some mice or even a poltergeist. But our guest is surprisingly cool about having to remove a colony of 100,000 bees from an Ontario home. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that puts its honey where its house is.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Sears restructure, House of Commons languages

Sears restructure

Guest: Mark Cohen

JD: For the past year, an iconic Canadian retail brand has been in a death spiral. And today, amid slumping sales, Sears Canada went to court to ask for protection from its creditors. The brand wasted no time announcing the closure of 59 stores and the layoff of 2,900 employees across the country. Mark Cohen is the former CEO of Sears Canada. He's now the director of retail studies at Columbia Business School. We reached Mr. Cohen in New York City.

CO: Mr. Cohen, what does it like to see the company you lead teetering on the verge of going under?

MARK COHEN: It's a very sad view. This is tragic news. I think the news is going to get even worse because I'm not convinced this company can successfully transit the restructure process. So in my view, the likelihood is that this company, which has a 60-plus year history of tremendous success in Canada is very likely to become an artifact.

CO: Sears Canada, Simpsons Sears as it was once known, this is an institution for people. And the catalog was always something people… I remember in my youth we waited the arrival of that. I mean the retail industry is struggling all over the place, was this inevitable that this would happen to Sears?

MC: Absolutely not. For all of the banter about the struggle that retail is exhibiting because of the presence of the Internet and changing preferences on the part of customers. Sears Canada was perfectly positioned to be a tremendously powerful place in that regard. As you just recounted, Sears has always had a direct to customer catalog business, which serviced customers everywhere in Canada. And when I was there we had gotten that business back to profitability. And inside of that business, this is in 2004, was an Internet component that was growing like a house on fire. So this is a company that should be absolutely in a great place and instead finds itself basically out of business.

CO: Who do you blame?

MC: The blame falls on first someone named Alan Lacy, who is the CEO of Sears, Roebuck, who was appointed in 2005. Sears, Roebuck had just had its best year in its history. He flailed at his job for five years and then turned the company over to Eddie Lampert, who merged the company with Kmart.

CO: Sorry who's Eddie Lampert?

MC: Eddie Lampert is a U.S.-based hedge fund operator, who had not a scintilla of retail experience or background and didn't see fit to hire anybody who did. He's basically been hollowing out the company both in the United States and in Canada. And you know without the benefit of cash capital, which is essentially money, and human capital, which is leadership and talent businesses just can't survive certainly not retail businesses.

CO: We're talking about how the retail industry is wobbly in all kinds of respect. But Sears, I mean if I'm not mistaken, has high brand recognition, loyalty with customers, plus, as you point out, it had the sort of built-in catalog sales which translates into online sales so easily. why wouldn't Mr. Lampert have reinvested in the company and tried to make a go of it?

MC: Well, this is the question of the ages that's been asked about him and his behavior since he took possession of these companies 13 years ago — 12-13 years ago. He hasn't reinvested any of the proceeds he's taken out of Sears Holdings either. So why would he not reinvest? Well, the answer is probably simply this: he's not interested in running these businesses. He's only interested in their cash value as it relates to what goes into his pocket. He may have had some fantasy early on about running the business in an unconventional way. But maybe one or two years in, he seems to have given that up and it's been asset stripping all the way. He's cut expenses back. He's not replaced talent that's left both companies. He's put people in place who are merely puppets. He's made no consequential investments in technology or in physical facilities of any sort. This is the tragedy that exists when a controlling shareholder can treat a company as if it's private.

CO: What happens to the people? There are Thousands of employees at Sears and all these stores that they've announced that they're closing. What happens to the stores and the people who worked there and the ones who worked on the on the online business?

MW: Well, all of the stores eventually go dark. Certainly, they just announced today a sizable number of locations to be closed. So right out of the gate there's a tremendous impact on the company. If the entire company liquidates, which unfortunately I think will occur eventually, there will be 15,000-17,000 people out of jobs. Several hundred locations closed. This has a devastating effect on the people and their families and on the communities in which these folks live because there's a ripple effect that these kinds of layoffs cause. In addition, there will be as many as 200 malls without an anchor tenant, which is bad news for most of those malls because unless they can quickly and properly reconfigure Sears space, those malls begin to feel like empty restaurants. And customers you know basically will stop shopping them. So this is a really nasty outlook if you will that under the best of circumstances is terrible and under the most likely circumstance in my view is catastrophic.

CO: Mr. Cohen, we'll be watching what happens with Sears Canada and I appreciate speaking with you today.

MC: You bet. Bye bye.

JD: Mark Cohen is the former CEO of Sears Canada. We reached him in New York City, where he is the director of retail studies at Columbia Business School.

[Music: Jazz]

Trudeau New York Times

JD: President Trump's late night tweets maybe the least predictable phenomenon in global politics, but Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is not losing sleep. Today in Toronto, the Canadian prime minister sat down for a live streamed Q&A with the New York Times. Peter Baker, the paper's chief White House correspondent, wanted to know Mr. Trudeau had someone in what he imagined as Canada's “situation room” just waiting for signs President Trump might have typed us into a trade war. And here is what Prime Minister Trudeau had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I think modern means of communications have led to adjustments in how we function in a large way. There's no question that the way the president chooses to speak directly to people through social media is a new wrinkle in international diplomacy.

[Sound: Laughing]

JT: We know anything the president of the United States says in any forum is worthy of noting, of placing into context, and you know trying to say OK, is this something that is a matte to us? Is it something that we need to react to? Is something that has implications for us? And in general I think you know I think we've been pretty able to understand what's going on without reacting to a similar level.

KATHERINE PORTER: But no, are you in bed like the rest of us looking at Twitter at night?

JT: No, I tend to focus on the things I need to do. On my job and how I do it. And if important things come up, I hear about them in my morning briefing. And if I get woken up at night for something, it better be more important than a tweet… by anyone.

JD: That was Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in Toronto today, taking questions from Katherine Porter and Peter Baker of The New York Times. It was part of a broad ranging conversation. It touched on NAFTA, the G-7 climate change, but there was serious stuff too like those much discussed photographs of the prime minister as he just happened to jog through a group of Vancouver grads. And Ms. Porter wanted to know were they staged?

SOUNDCLIP

JT: No, no.

KP: What happened then?

JT: Well, I run. I run a few times a week. And one of the things that I found is it's easier often for me to run on the road than it is at home because when I'm at home and I end the day at work I want to go home and spend time with my kids and my wife and my days are really full. So taking an extra half hour to run and cool down time afterwards is taking time away from my family. So when I'm out on the road, I run and I travel with my EA and photographer and a few other people. They are both runners too. And Adam our photographer got taking a series of me running in Strasburg, in Paris, in Washington D.C., and he doesn't mind running with a camera on. He saw a grad group in front of me and I saw him stop. I’m like Ok watch, I’m going to fake that I'm going to take off my shirt. That actually wasn't in any of the pictures series, but there’s a first picture I don't think he got of me saying yeah, I'll take off my shirt to be in the background because it was a thing and he shook his head. And then I ran through it and he snapped the picture and then the kids spotted me and I turned back and said hi. So it's one of those things that just happens. But I do recognize sort of what the cynics in journalism and others are saying oh no, there's all these moments that… I do things. You know I'm an active person, I like people, I will stop for selfies. I feel that opportunities to connect in a way that is true to me with people are helpful. And that was an example of it.

JD: That was Prime Minister Justin Trudeau at a Q&A hosted by The New York Times this afternoon in Toronto.

[Music: Cultural]

House of Commons languages

Guest: Romeo Saganash

JD: Romeo Saganash decided to make a point during Question Period: by having most of his fellow MPs not understand the point he was making. If a Member of Parliament speaks in the House of Commons in French or English, their words are simultaneously translated into the other language. If however, an MP wants to speak in any other language, including Indigenous languages, they have to provide the translation themselves. Mr. Saganash refused to do so. So here is the NDP MP asking Prime Minister Justin Trudeau a question in Cree yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

ROMEO SAGANASH: [Speaking: Cree]

[Sound: Clapping]

JT: I would like to thank the member opposite for his words. And wish I had the capacity to understand the strong culture and language that he shared with us today. This on National Indigenous Peoples Day is a day to reflect on reconciliation on the work we have begun. But the amount of work that remains to do on the path forward that we need to recognise and build forward on. I thank the member for his question and look forward to working with him on the path of true reconciliation.

JD: That was Prime Minister Trudeau responding yesterday to a question in Cree he did not understand from NDP MP Romeo Saganash. We reached Romeo Saganash in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Saganash, why do you think you should be able to pose questions in Cree in the House of Parliament?

RS: As I said in that question to the prime minister, we need to be cognizant of the fact that there were people here before even the French or English arrived. That their language was spoken more than 7,000 years before even a single word in French or English was spoken on this land that you now call Canada. It's a matter of respect. I believe that under the Constitution section 35, I have the right to address the people in my language in that House.

CO: So how might this work? I mean the speaker has ruled that the House of Commons doesn't have the capacity to provide simultaneous translation of Indigenous languages. What do you want to see happen?

RS: Well, I think that’s the most absurd explanation that I've received so far. I worked for 23 years at the United Nations in Geneva. They provide more than five or six simultaneous translations in other languages at the same time. We’re in 2017 now and this is Canada. Why is it not possible to do that in that place? It's absurd and we should be able to do that in the House of Commons.

CO: How many Indigenous languages are there in Canada?

RS: Well, there are still about 50 Indigenous languages — more than 50 Indigenous languages — that are still spoken today.

CO: OK. In a practical way how would that work? I mean would you notify that you were posing questions in Cree, or that you wanted to speak in Cree and have someone there because it's not the only language that might want to be spoken in the House of Commons?

RS: Well, I've been speaking to the clerk of the House for the last four years to try to find a solution and try to find ways how we can achieve that. And it's unfortunate that a Liberal member called it as a point of privilege because I was still trying to negotiate a settlement on this issue. So the speaker was forced to rule on that. But nevertheless, there are ways to do it. I know a lot of Cree interpreters that could do this in a matter of 24-48 hours of notice and come to Ottawa. That's easy to do. That's just simple logistics, so I'm pretty saddened that's not possible at this time in 2017, in this country.

CO: So you've offered a practical way it can be done. You're not saying you want 50 people around every minute of the day trying to be prepared. You're saying this is a proposal to say I'm going to be speaking in my language. I would like to have translation.

RS: That's what I proposed. That's what I've been discussing with the clerk over the last four years.

CO: And the Liberal MP, Robert-Falcon Ouellette, he was trying to get a translation of a text he gave 48 hours in advance and couldn't get it. That was part of what the speaker, Geoff Regan, was responding to a ruling on, is that right?

RS: Yes, that's correct. And it is now beyond what was ruled by the speaker of the house. Now it becomes a constitutional issue.

CO: We heard after you posed your question in Cree and the prime minister says he doesn't know what you said, but he responded. Can you translate for ask the question you posed in the House of Commons?

RS: Well, I basically said I know that the prime minister announced today that he changed the name of the place where he sits as prime minister, meaning the PM office. And I asked very clearly has spoken to the Algonquin people because we are on unseeded territory here in Ottawa? And I even asked him precisely. Have you spoken to the family who was evicted from this territory? This was their traditional territory. That was their hunting territory, their fishing territory, their gathering territory the family was here before Parliament Hill existed. So I asked them if he even consulted or asked to do what he did today?

CO: And the subject you speaking of which is the renaming of the Langevin block. This is a discussion because Langevin is the name of a founding father of Canada. Also, one of the architects of the so-called “Indian Act”, and also a person who is a principal player in the creation of the residential schools. Someone who said… I'll quote from what we said in the interview we did yesterday about this, “He said if you leave Indians in the family or Indian children in the family they may know how to read and write, but they will remain savages. Whereas by separating them as we're proposing, they will acquire the habits and tastes of civilized people.” That was what he had to say. And that name is no longer Langevin block. And we heard from a former MP Paul Calandra, who said that Mr. Trudeau is whitewashing the past. What do you say to him?

RS: What's unfortunate about all this. I'm glad that they’ve taken away the name Langevin. You know I walk beside that building every day. I'm a residential school survivor, and I walk beside that building every day. And every day it reminds me of my experience of ten years in a residential school. So I'm glad that he is taking away that name. But on the other hand renaming it the Prime Minister’s and Privy Council Office is still the same colonial institution that has brought us where we are today. It doesn't make any difference. That's why I asked the question. If he had chosen to be careful about the way he did that move. He would have talked family and asked them can we name this building after them? That would have been the most honorable thing for him to do. He chose not to do it.

CO: Mr. Seganash, I wish you safe journey home and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RS: Thank you very much.

JD: Romeo Saganash is an NDP Member of Parliament. We reached him in Ottawa. And after our interview last night with former Conservative MP Paul Calandra about the renaming of the Langevin block, which Carol and Mr. Saganash mentioned in that conversation. After that interview, we heard from you on Facebook, Connie Farr wrote quote, “Why would an oppressed people want to keep hearing over and over again the names of their oppressors?” It's enough to know that the name causes distress in Indigenous people. The name the name doesn't need to disappear. It should be taught in history in the correct context. And we heard another point of view from talkback.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: a phone connecting]

CHRIS DAWSON: Hi my name is Chris Dawson; I live in Oshawa, Ontario. I'm responding to the interview you had with the Conservative gentleman who was talking about changing the name of Langevin block. In this case I have to agree with him. We have to accept our history warts and all. We can't whitewash it. And if we start doing that, who are we going to whitewash next? Nellie McClung, Emily Murphy, Irene Parlby? Those women were supporters of eugenics. I mean they were important women when it came to the feminist movement and equality rights in voting for women in Canada, but they also had some ghost in the closet. So I would suggest that we all do. And we have to accept those things and look at them in the context of the time. So that's my point of view. Thank you.

JD: A call from Chris Dawson in Oshawa, Ontario. Thanks everyone who called, wrote, or tweeted.

[Music: Electronica]

CIA snack thief

JD: To people in the intelligence community, there are two realities: the bright shiny fake reality that us regular people perceive, and the cruel, real, reality beneath. We stumble around in our silly illusion, watching our Netflix, and Instagraming our avocado toast. While employees of the CIA live in a shadowy Kafkaesque world of back-stabbing, and occasionally front-stabbing. And eventually, the weight of the secret knowledge can become unbearable. That's when some agents go rogue and betray their nation in the worst way possible: by tricking a vending machine into giving them free stuff. It seems kind of unfair that several CIA agents were fired for their scheme. After all, it shows the kind of ingenuity you would think their higher-ups would value. According to documents obtained by BuzzFeed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit, these bold operatives hacked vending machines in the heart of the agency itself. There was an electronic payment system by which you purchased say a “Take 5” bar, simply by inserting a card. This the rogue agents disabled, presumably in a complex operation involving night vision goggles, a laser, and a grappling hook. Whatever they did it enabled them to take much more than five “Take 5”s without putting any money on their cards from the fall of 2012 to the spring of 2013, Operation Rage Against The Machine — not its real name — garnered the hungry spies more than $3,000 worth of free snacks. But there was one flaw in their otherwise perfect plan: someone noticed because it's the CIA. And so officials stuck some surveillance cameras near the machines and caught everyone who had put their jobs at risk in order to eat candy and corn chips for free. That's easy to see how it happened. When you've seen the dark underbelly of the world, you just want to put stuff in your own dark underbelly and not pay for it. But let this be a cautionary tale: even if you've gone rogue, just pay for your vending machine snacks and let the chips fall where they may.

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Part 2: Funeral song, bee house

Funeral song

Guest: Eleanor Parrott

JD: Recently Buddy Wasisname and the Other Fellers received a curious request. The Newfoundland band got a message from a fan asking them to rerecord one of their songs, a bit slower, and a bit softer. And that fan was 80-year-old Eleanor Parrott of Petley, Newfoundland. Ms. Parrott was planning her own funeral, and she wanted their song “Carry Me”, played on that day. She just wanted a slightly different version of it. We reached Eleanor Parrot in Petley.

CO: Eleanor, why do you want this song, “Carry Me”, played at your funeral?

ELEANOR PARROT: Because It’s just the most wonderful song I heard for that purpose. It says carry me/ Take my footprints from the sand. And I thought a beautiful, beautiful, song to sing to me when they're bringing me to church.

CO: And this oh carry me/ Would you carry me/ Hold me and touch my hand/ Take my footprints from the sand.

EP: Exactly, and I thought that was beautiful.

CO: Now why are you arranging your funeral?

EP: Perhaps it's funny for me to say, but we're one of those close families, me and my children and grandchildren and great grandchildren, all that. And I didn't want them to have the pressure of arranging everything after I'm gone. Because it’ll be hard on them enough already when the time comes for me to go, let alone having to arrange everything. And maybe they’ll be wondering would that suit mom if she knew? Or am I doing the right thing? Or am I doing the wrong thing? So I just thought I'd do it myself. And then they wouldn't be grieving and trying to do this job all at one time.

CO: That’s very thoughtful of you.

EP: To be done the way I wanted it and to be no burden on them at all.

CO: And the way you want it done, there’s a whole bunch of details. But this in particular, where and when do you want this song, “Carry Me”, played?

EP: In the church when they're bringing me out to go to the cemetery.

CO: Now Buddy Wasisname and the Other Fellers have a recording of this song. Why couldn't you just use that recording?

EP: Because it was a beautiful song, of course same words. But on that first one, he started as a soft and mellow. And when he got part of the way through the song, he speeded up fast. So I just asked the question if he could make a disk for me with just that lone song on it? And he did that and he done it exactly like I wanted it. And he left his home in Charlottetown and he brought it right here and passed it to me in my hand — he and his voice.

CO: And this is Wayne chaulk, He's a member of Buddy Wasisname and the Other Fellers?

EP: Yes, exactly.

CO: Do you know him?

EP: No, I didn't only just through the tapes he had out — his DVD tapes and stuff like that. I bought them and watched his shows and that on TV. And this song was on one of them. And soon as I heard it for the first time, it came to my mind my lord, what a beautiful song to have sung coming out of church when I die. And that's what I’ve done.

CO: And so how did you let it be known to Buddy Wasisname that you needed a new recording of that song?

EP: I called to the studio and I told them what I want. And he passed the message on to Wayne. I never heard no more talk of it. So I said well they’re putting on shows. He’s all around everywhere Putting on shows. So perhaps the man never had time. Or perhaps he just couldn't do it. So I forgot all about it. And on the Thursday past, the phone rang and when I looked the name that was on the phone was Wayne Chalk. The next day my daughter was here, she was on the bridge and I thought I heard her speak to somebody. And when I heard her speak, I looked out and here was he and his voice, god love the two of them, standing in the glass patio door and I went and I opened the door and I said oh my god. I said come on in. And the two of them came in and what a surprise and what a beautiful, friendly evening we had.

CO: Tell us about the evening you had with Wayne and his wife?

EP: Chatting, and he brought me the disk I asked for. And he brought me a poster and he brought me a DVD and he never charged me a cent.

CO: Now you did offer to pay him, right?

EP: Yes I did. And he wouldn't take anything and I said I’d like to give you something, but I haven't got nothing to give you. Yes. So we chat away and, by and by, when the time comes for them to leave, the two of them got up. I said oh wait now, I looked over in my glass cabinet and I saw this gold horse and a little clock on the on the carriage.

CO: This is a little figurine you got that.

EP: Yes, so I took it down and I gave it to him.

CO: Now I just finally, before I let you go, I know you've got something like what nine children, 22 grandchildren, 21 great grandchildren and one more on the way. Are you all going to go to see the Buddy Wasisname and the Other Fellers show that I understand you've been invited to?

EP: My precious grandchild just come down from Fort Mac. And he went and bought me a ticket and going to take me up to the show they’re putting on Monday night.

CO: Have a great time and I hope you're not going to be using these funeral plans anytime soon.

EP: I hope not. But whatever it is my dear, we’ve got no control.

CO: And you're ready for it.

EP: I'm ready, yes.

CO: Eleanor, it's great to talk to you. Thanks.

EP: Yes my darling. And I want to say hello to all my children, my nine children and their spouses, and I want to say hello to all my brothers and sisters, I got nine to them too, and all my grandchildren and my dear little grandchildren.

CO: That's lovely. OK. The word goes out to all them. Eleanor Parrott, it’s great to talk to you. Thanks.

EP: OK my darling, thank you very, very, much. I have a good day.

JD: We reached Eleanor Parrott in Petley, New foundland.

[Music: Folk]

From Our Archives: Israeli airline lawsuit

JD: In 2015, Renee Rabinowitz was boarding a flight from New York to Tel Aviv when an attendant asked her if she would change seats. The passenger assigned to the seat next to her was an ultra-orthodox Jewish man who said that he could not sit beside a woman. Ms. Rabinowitz eventually did move, but the 82-year-old Holocaust survivor sued the airline El Al for gender discrimination — hoping to end the unfair, albeit fairly common practice which does happen on flights to and from Israel. And yesterday, a court in Jerusalem ruled in MS Rabinowitz’s favor. In the decision the judge wrote quote, “Under absolutely no circumstances can a crew member ask a passenger to move from their designated seat because the adjacent passenger doesn't want to sit next to them due to their gender.” Unquote. Now, from our archives, here is Ms. Rabinowitz his conversation with Carol. This is from last year after she launched a lawsuit against El Al.

SOUNDCLIP

RENEE RABINOWITZ: I was offended and rather put down by it.

CO: Did you speak to the ultra-orthodox Jewish man who had asked that you be moved?

RR: Yes. And then he started to tell me that it's written in the Torah. And probably interrupted him because I said wait a minute, I know a little bit about the Torah. There is nothing in that about not sitting next to a woman. And he said you're right, but the interpretation is that one must be very careful not to put oneself into teaching tempting types of situations.

CO: Now you live in Israel, you're Israeli, you are a survivor of the Holocaust, your husband is a rabbi. What do you make of your position in this society? What would you say to him if you could say a bit more about why you found this offensive?

RR: I think that I would explain to him that I have no problem with his extreme views as long as they don't infringe upon me in a manner that is illegal. This is gender discrimination. He asked me to move for no reason other than my gender.

JD: From 2016, that was 82-year-old Holocaust survivor Renee Rabinowitz in conversation with Carol. Yesterday, a Jerusalem court ruled that flight attendants for Israel's national carrier, El Al, can no longer request female passengers to change seats to accommodate ultra-Orthodox men who refuse to sit next to them for religious beliefs. And you can hear our full conversation with Ms. Rabinowitz on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Spanish guitar]

Bee House

Guest: Kevin Smith

JD: 100,000 of anything is a lot. But when that anything is honeybees, who have made your home there’s, I would argue it's too much. Especially when you have to remove them from someone's walls. Still, that is the number Kevin Smith estimates he had to deal with when he went to work this week. He is the owner of a pest control company. We reached him in Georgetown, Ontario.

CO: Kevin, you're at this person's house and you started taking the boards off the walls outside. What did you see?

KEVIN SMITH: Well, I guess the comb started to be revealed. And then the more boards that were released, the more bees that came out. And then eventually, I guess after three or four boards it started to reveal to us the size of the hive that we were dealing with.

CO: And how big was it?

KS: Very large. We estimated originally maybe 50-60,000, but the more we found out the information, the closer to 100,000 it became.

CO: Describe where the hive was? Where the bees were living?

KS: OK, it’s an 1830’s board and batten, if you know what that is, and it's a summer home. So it turns out there's no insulation, there's no winter heating. It's only used in the summer. So it left a large cavity for the bees to be located in. So board and batten just peels off fairly easy. It's quite brittle, but you know I came and away we went.

CO: And so basically this house was insulated with honeycomb?

KS: Yeah, exactly. Just in that area, yeah.

CO: So how big was this area?

KS: That is the thing, it was it was a funny shape. I mean the hives will take the shape of whatever is available to them. So while it wasn't very long or tall, it was very deep. So we were cutting off combs that were probably a foot-and-a-half long and 18 inches wide. And we cut off for them and then realized that there's a whole other row in the back. And then we cut those off and it was a whole other row and the back, it just kept going.

CO: And you're in the pest control business. I presume you’re wearing some kind of a suit.

KS: Oh yeah, everybody was in a bee suit. Everybody got stung anyway.

CO: Really! Whay?

KS: Oh, you have to take it off at some point. They were not very happy, they followed us out to our trucks and I guess they kind of waited.

CO: How long would it take for honeybees to make a nest of that size?

KS: Well, I mean we do typical swarms as well. And a typical swarm will have 10-15,000. So to get to a hive that size I mean she said that it was five to 10 years old. I suspect it's you know at least 10, or if not more.

CO: And so if she's got to 100,000 bees living in her walls and its a summer place you say, so she’s not there all year. But how did she not know? I mean how did she not know the size of it? Could she not hear it through the walls?

KS: I think she heard it. I think she saw them. She's a very nice lady, very, environmentally friendly, very earthy kind of lady. And they kind of lived in their part of the home and she lived in hers. They never really bothered her, so she just let them be. And you know that's not the kind of insect you really want to be because the numbers just get out of control, right?

CO: So what did you have to do to get them out?

KS: Well, we had to remove the board and batten. We've developed a vacuum system; it took me quite a while to get it down to perfect. But you know nobody gets hurt. We're able to suck them in and contain them in the bucket. And this is what we would call a “three bucket hive”. These are two and a half gallon buckets. I would estimate each bucket would contain 30-40,000 bees in each one. And it took three buckets.

CO: And where did they go?

KS: They went to a local beekeeper who was astonished, shocked, and I’m trying to think of the word he used. I dropped them off myself to him. I won't tell you what he said to me, but he couldn't believe how many bees we had.

CO: He hadn't he hadn't seen anything like this either?

KS: No, this was way beyond his expectation.

CO: So he adopted them?

KS: he adopted them. They're living in a nice, beautiful, home. He actually set them up for them, and they're thriving. They've already begun making new honey and laying larva. And away they go.

CO: And it's not good or easy to live with bees in our houses, but honeybees are in trouble. So how do you know that they're going to survive? They have a lot of things that are attacking their lives, so what should we do have that they will survive in their new home?

KS: Well this particular nest, so when you when you first mover nest, I mean the object of the game is to get the queen, right? So literally out of all of those 100,000 bees, we’re only after one bee, right? So if we don't get that one bee, the whole process is for not. It’s just wasted. You can end up with all the workers and the nets will die because there's no queen to control it. So we have to make sure we get her. And within 24 hours we know we've got her because the workers are useless without her. And if you put workers into a hive by themselves, they'll simply just take off and wander away. There's no structure. She sets all the all the goals you know on how it works. So within 24 hours, we knew we had the queen. We were sent pictures and then they started to settle down and started to do their things. So you know the queen is there and you know they're in a good environment and they're away from all pesticides. I mean bees are very susceptible to pesticides. It’s such a fragile insect that I mean some guy doing his crops you know three farms over can wipe out an entire set of beekeeper’s hives. So you have to have sort of like you know a special little zone for these guys to be able to live through it.

CO: And do you know why. Just finally, why this woman who had this cottage, why did she decide after so many years that she needed to get rid of them?

KS: I believe she was having company in and some of the company, it turned out, were allergic to bees. So a single bee sting thing obviously can kill somebody who is allergic. So she deemed it was time to for them to move on.

CO: Kevin, thanks for telling us the story.

KS: No worries. Thank you.

CO: Bye bye.

KS: Bye.

JD: Kevin Smith is the owner of the pest control company ICE. We reached him in Georgetown, Ontario.

[Music: Folk]

UofT black graduation

JD: It is a celebration of and for black students at the University, and an acknowledgement of the barriers they've faced in pursuing higher education. Tonight, at the University of Toronto, a graduation ceremony for black students is taking place. Nasma Ahmed is one of the organizers of the event. This morning, Ms. Ahmed joined host Matt Galloway on CBC Toronto's “Metro Morning”. She came along with Trina James, who was one of the graduates attending. Here's a clip from that interview. It begins with Ms. James describing how she reacted when she found out about the ceremony.

SOUNDCLIP

TRINA JAMES: I was so excited. Words cannot even explain how excited. One, because it’s something that I've never seen happen at University of Toronto or in Canada period. And two, just looking out the positive benefits that it had for many black students in the states were able to access a space like this. Oftentimes when we're having conversations about academic students, especially black academic students, we are not necessarily there. We're not necessarily visible. So the one thing I love about this event it's making black excellence, black academics, like visible and like the center of the conversation.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you know, Nasma, about what has happened in the United States with similar events in terms of the effect that they've had on that student body?

NASMA AHMED: Yeah. So I personally worked out of the U.S. quite often. So I know even I remember attending the black graduation years ago ending off with your black community is like something that is magical in itself. And so a lot of people it was also an opportunity for them to network with students they didn’t even know. What we're realizing through this process is there so many black students that we didn't know at the university. And so for a lot of people it was also the networking opportunity that you're like oh wow, like you were also here, you were doing amazing researchy and you're going to be doing an amazing thing next which is a Ph.D. or a master's or whatever the case might be. And so for a lot of people, I remember even in the US, it was that network also after graduation that was helpful. But also for people to have their family and friends and watch them on the stage. And watch them being recognized on the stage. It's something that is very special to a lot of people.

JD: That was Nasma Ahmed speaking with Matt Galloway, the host of CBC Toronto's “Metro Morning”, earlier today. She's one of the organizers of tonight's black graduation ceremony at the UofT, University of Toronto, and they were joined by Trina James, one of the graduates.

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Part 3: Exploding whipped cream death, canoe trip

From Our Archives: memorial

JDL The question has never been whether the people of Utoya want a memorial. It's about where it should go? Yesterday, years of debate on that subject finally ended, when the Norwegian government made its announcement. The memorial commemorating the lives of the 77 people massacred by Anders Breivik in 2011, would not be located on Utoya Island, where most of Berivik’s victims were shot and killed. Instead, it will be located on the ferry pier that serves the island. Originally, the memorial was to be called “Memory Wound” and artist Jonas Dahlberg’s design proposal would have severed a peninsula across from Utoya Island, cutting a strip of land in two parts. But local residents, many of whom helped to save victims on the day of the massacre, were so opposed to that design they vowed to sue the government should it go through. And we reached one of those residents last year on September 15th. So from our archives, here is some of what of Ole Morten Jensen told Carol at the time.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: The artist said he wanted to create a wound in nature that can never heal.

OLE MORTEN JENSEN: Yeah, that'll stop us from healing too. I don't know why he wsnts to put us in so much pain. Every time we see it, we will have memory flashbacks coming back to us, and we will forever live in 2011. I like the future, not the past, all I want is to remember the past, not be looking at it every day.

CO: Is it something that you think about quite often?

OMJ: Well, it's not in my mind every day, but of course all of us living here think about what happened.

CO: What did you actually witness that day yourself?

OMJ: Some of the kids dying. Of course we heard the screaming and the shots and the ambulances, police, helicopters, everything. So it was a dramatic day, which I prefer to get distance from.

CO: Does it feel sometimes, as the artist says, does it feel like a wound that cannot heal?

OMJ: I don't think it will be like that forever, especially if they don't build this wound in the nature there. I think they will be able to move along. That's what we are trying to do here. But by moving this artwork up the hill.

JD: From archives, that was Ole Morten Jensen, who lives across from Utoya Island, where 69 of the 77 people killed by Anders Breivik died in 2011. Last September, Mr. Jensen told Carol that locals would sue the Norwegian government to have the site of the memorial changed. And on Wednesday, the Norwegian government announced that the memorial would be rethought and eventually relocated to the ferry pier serving Utoya.

[Music: Ambient]

Exploding whipped cream death

Guest: Benjamin Douriez

JD: The update on Instagram came as a shock to Rebecca Burger’s thousands of followers. Ms. Burger was a fitness Instagram celebrity. But her latest post came from her family. It showed a photograph of a whipped cream canister and it read quote, “Here is an example of the whipped cream container that exploded and struck Rebecca's chest, resulting in her death.” Unquote. It was a freak accident her family says, but one French consumer watchdog group says that Ms. Burger’s Injury and death comes as no surprise. The group had warned for years about explosive whipped cream canisters. Benjamin Douriez is the deputy editor of the magazine “60 Million Consumers”. We reached him in Houilles, France.

CO: Benjamin, how do you think that a whipped cream container was able to kill a woman?

BENJAMIN DOURIEZ: Well, we don't have specific details on how it happened in this specific case. But we know that the device exploded and hit her in the chest near the heart. I have to say we weren’t that surprised that this device could kill someone. It is a topic we’ve worked on for several years and we heard of several incidents with injuries. So we feared this device could kill someone.

CO: And so we talk about a whipped cream canister, this isn’t the kind of stuff that we get in the supermarket. describe this this canister that she was probably using.

BD: Well, it’s a device that you use when you want to do the whipped cream yourself. So you don’t buy grocery store. It works with pressure, you put some gas inside so that you can have whipped cream.

CO: And are all these kinds of pressurized whipped cream canisters a problem or defective in this way?

BD: I think that’s really a safety issue for a consumer for two reasons: there are some models of canister that are not safe. So they have been recalled for safety reasons, but most people dont know that. And the second reason is that even if the product is safe, it's not that easy to use it properly. And if you don't use it properly there's a risk that it might explode.

CO: And how does it explode or why does it explode?

BD: For example, several had a plastic head and maybe the plastic is not safe enough because this kind of device works with a lot of pressure inside. So maybe they are not well conceived.

CO: So this young woman, who was Rebecca Burger, she's a blogger. She is a fitness person. She was using one of these canisters and it killed her. It exploded and hit her. This is the first death we know of whipped cream canisters. Do you know of other injuries?

BD: Since five years, we had a lot of people telling us that we had some incidents with that kind of device. We had 60 incidents — sometimes serious injuries — we had people with broken limbs, people with broken teeth. We had one woman who lost her eye because it exploded and hit her in the eye. So we knew that this kind of device could cause serious injuries.

CO: You said there's been a recall of some of them. Was there a particular brand or era of these products?

BD: There are like 15 brands that recalled their product. The question now is should the product be on sale for the general public? Well, it’s OK to sell it for professionals who work in the restaurants. But the question is it safe to sell that kind of device to the general public?

CO: Because you're saying it's not just the ones that are defective, where the plastic top is not strong enough for the amount of pressure, but lots of people just don't know how to use them properly.

BD: When you go on the Internet or you see some video that tell you to do dangerous stuff with that kind of device. For example some people put too much gas because your gas is in a small thing. You have to put one inside, not two. Some people put two.

CO: And those are those little capsules, those gas chargers, that you put inside.

BD: Right.

CO: And so people do that. Is it for fun? Or do they think that they have a better experience if they put extra ones in?

BD: Because they think the cream will look better and be more dense. So that's why they put on the second one, but that actually, it’s dangerous with the devices sold to the general public.

CO: So many of these companies that produce these things are from France. Why is France such a source of this kind of pressurized canister?

BD: I don’t know? Maybe more people in France buy this kind of device. You have to know in France we had some popular TV shows in the past where people used this kind of device, so it's been more popular because of TV shows. So maybe that's the reason why we have this problem in France right now?

CO: There is an Instagram posting from the family of this young woman. They’re saying do not use this kind of utensil in your home. Several tens of thousands of defective devices are still in circulation. Do you think that warning that they're putting out should be a bit more broadly issued?

BD: We've issued several articles in the past just to warn people. So we agree with what the family says because some people have in their homes one of the devices that is dangerous and has been recalled. And they just don’t know that the device has been recalled for safety reasons. So actually it's true that thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of French people have a dangerous device in their homes and they just don't know it. So it's important to warn them.

CO: Benjamin, thank you for this warning. Thanks for speaking with us.

BD: Thank you

JD: Benjamin Douriez is the deputy editor of a French consumer watchdog magazine called “60 Million Consumers.” We reached him in Houilles, France.

[Music: Ambient]

Russia LGBT

JD: This week, an EU human rights court found that Russia's so-called “gay propaganda ban” breaks treaty rules because it encourages discrimination and encourages homophobia. The law, which has been in place since 2013, makes providing information about homosexuality to minors illegal. And Russia's government has used the ban to shut down pride marches, to detain activists, to do things like ban Disney's live action remake of “Beauty and the Beast” from being shown to kids under 16 because of hints that one of the characters is gay. So, with a legislative record like that, you can sort of see that the Kremlin wouldn't be a big fan of “The Blue Door” by Vancouver author Robert Joseph Green. It is a tale of marriage equality and as his book has become a protest symbol for gay rights activists in Russia, Mr. Green himself has been pulled into the fight. This morning, he told CBC Vancouver's “Morning Edition” Guest host Stephen Quinn about what that has been like. Here's part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBERT JOSEPH GREEN: First of all, you never imagine — I've never imagined – in a million years that writing love stories would lead to people's lives being threatened or arrested. You know that was the last thing on my mind. But what had happened was when the media broke in Russia some of the Russian media published my author's Facebook page. So I got all this hate mail, it was all in Russian, so my publicist and I had to go to Google Translate to see all these people yelling at me. But in those messages we were getting messages from children saying hey, I live in the Euro mountains, if my parents find out they'll literally kill me. Help! And so we first went to the RCMP and they directed us to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which is now DEFAD. They said they didn't have a program that they knew that the Americans had a program that they could help. So I had to meet with the U.S. Department of State and turn over my access to my Facebook page. It was a very uncomfortable thing for me to do. But I did it for the sake of these kids so that they can reach out to these kids.

STEPHEN QUIIN: Doing that: coming out of a children's story I mean how unbelievable is that to you?

RJG: You know if I was to bet the farm that this would have happened in my future, I would bet against it. I'm not a betting person, but I never would imagine any of this unfolding as it did.

SQ: Do you do you see this, Robert as something that is a small step. Something that may lead to change now that people are talking about this so openly and now that they have you know this example in front of them?

RJG: Well, I hope so and you know one of the things that I did when the story sort of unfolded, I actually gave the story rights-free to the Russian public to use for their choosing. My publicist was not too happy about that, but I just felt if this is a tiny crack that will lead to the trickle that will lead to the flow of freedom of expression for the LGBT community in Russia so be it. Let me help them.

JD: That's Vancouver author Robert Joseph Green on CBC Vancouver's “Morning Edition” this morning, talking about how his children's book “The Blue Door” became a protest symbol for gay rights activists in Russia. Earlier this week, again, an EU court found that Russia's gay propaganda ban discriminates against gay people and prevents freedom of expression. Russian officials plan to appeal that ruling.

[Music: Piano and violin duet]

Canoe Trip

Guest: Ka’iulani Murphy

When the ancient Polynesian people first settled the islands of the Pacific, they crossed huge distances of open ocean with only the sun, the stars, and the waves to guide them. And so when the Polynesian Voyaging canoe Hokule’a embarked on its circumnavigation of the globe in 2014, its crew wanted to do it the same way — using traditional navigation techniques as much as possible. And they did. On Saturday, Hokule’a returned from its three year trip to its home port in Hawaii. Ka’iulani Murphy was on board for part of the journey. She was the lead navigator for the last leg of the voyage. And we reached her in Hakipu’u, Hawaii.

CO: Ka’iulani, why did you and your other crew members, why did you want to take this boat around the world without modern navigation?

KA’IU:ANI MURPHY: Well, since the beginning of Hokule’a, there’s always been this spirit of exploration. So from the early days we’re trying to relearn the methods of non-instrument navigation or what we call “way finding”, which is being able to sail between islands that you can see, but islands that you can't see, sometimes hundreds of thousands of miles apart, without using any instruments and only using the natural clues around us.

CO: How difficult is that?

KM: It's pretty difficult actually. It is quite a challenge. There are a number of things that we need to learn. So the most consistent and the easiest part of that kind of navigation is the stars, the celestial bodies, because they're predictable. But then when you don't have them, which is a majority of the time, you don't have clear nights every night or when the sun is high it's difficult to tell direction. Then we rely on ocean swells, so being able to read the surface of the ocean and the directions it swells throughout the course of a day or night. if you don't have any other clues then it gives you a challenge.

CO: What was it like to be onboard?

KM: Well it's always amazing. Every similar experience is different because you're always a different crew, maybe different captains, and in different parts of the world of the ocean. You know maybe it's new to us, but each experience is different because the weather can always be different from what it was even if you've been there before. But it's really a special time that we all cherish, eespecially to be on Hokule’a on the ocean really developing this sense of family with our fellow crewmembers and the love of our natural surroundings.

CO: And Hokule’a, the boat, the canoe, what does it look like?

KM: She's beautiful. She is designed for our traditional voyaging canoes. So there's two hulls, and the hulls are connected by cross beams or what we call yako, and there's a deck platform on top of that. And she has two masts, so we have two sails. Basically the modern catamaran is designed from our tradition voyaging canoes. But the end pieces of the canoes have a design that's kind of unique to Hawaii where the pieces kind of come up to a point. It’s very ancient looking I guess.

CO: And how many people? How many members of the crew were you on usually?

KM: On any given segment of the voyage, we have about 12-13 people on board. we also had a sister canoe during most of the Pacific voyage, which carried 14, sometimes 15, people and we also had an escort vessel when we didn’t have the other canoe. So at any time on the ocean Hokule’a is not by herself. But we had kind of a support vessel or a sister ship out there with us.

CO: You're entirely under sail? Do you have an engine onboard at all?

KM: Hokule’a does not have an engine and that's part of the reason we always have an escort vessel or support vessel. So as we approach islands we say that we can't maybe sail you know right up into a dock or to an anchorage. We do use that escort vessel to be our power. So they would pull us, but we try to keep that very minimal. So it's not like they tow us if there’s no wind. We just kind of wait for the weather to be good. But what we do have that ability for safety reasons like few’re near shore.

CO: And when you describe this, is there below? Is there a hold? Or are you outside all the time? Are you under the sky and the stars for the duration of your journey?

KM: We do have covers over both of the hulls. So there's actually five bunk bed spaces on each hull for a total of ten. But really we’re only in those bunks when we’re off watching and resting. The rest of the time we're out on the deck. Out in the open and able to see you know the sunrise and sunsets, and the moonrise and moonsets and the stars. So its wonderful!

CO: Very few people get to be in a situation where you can't see land in any direction. Where you have no reference point at all on the water, you're just entirely out there. And so what's that like? I mean to be out on the water in a boat like this using these stars as your navigation?

KM: For me it's a special time. It feels like we’re almost kind of going back in time. I'm sailing in the wake of our ancestors. We feel like being on this it's the replica really of our traditional canoes. And you feel like you're practicing the same art skill that our ancestors did. So there's something very special about that having that connection, especially when you're out at sea. You really get that sense that you're not the first one traveling these routes that we're following. These sea paths of our of our ancestors. And then is the beauty of you know in our system of way finding and navigation, we do keep track of where we only know that based on where we’ve come from. And even so just having that sense of knowing where we are, where home is, where we came from, and where our destination is. That is a nincredible feat for our ancestors who didn't have maps like we do today to know exactly where everything is. But to think you know putting ourselves back in time and thinking of our ancestors traveled settling the islands of Polynesia for the first time coming up upon islands. It's also pretty magical to pull them out of the sea even today.

CO: What a journey! Ka’iulani, it’s good to talk to you and thanks for telling us this story.

KM: Sure. Thank you very much for having us.

JD: Ka’iulani Murphy was the lead navigator for the final leg of Hokule’a’s voyage. We reached her in Hakipu’u, Hawaii on the coast of Oahu.

[Music: Guitar and piano duet]

From Our archives: treasure death

JD: The hunt for Forest Fenn's treasure seems to have taken another life. We have told you about this mysterious treasure on As It Happens before. A millionaire antiques dealer says that he has hidden a chest of precious gold and jewels. He's written a poem that contains clues as to where that treasure is thought to be hidden. Aince Mr. Fenn announced the treasure hunt, thousands of people have gone in search of it. Often in rugged and dangerous terrain. Now, Colorado pastor Paris Wallace has been missing for more than a week. A body has been found in the Rio Grande. The New Mexico police say all evidence does suggest that the deceased is Pastor Wallace. And Mr. Wallace is not the first to disappear in his search for Mr. Fenn's treasure. We spoke to Forest Fenn after another man, Randy Bilyeu, went missing while on the hunt in the winter of 2016. Mr. Bilyeu’s body was recovered months later. Here is part of our conversation with Forest Fenn. This is from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Do you feel any guilt for encouraging people to venture out into remote dangerous areas looking for your treasure like Randy?

FOREST FENN: No. Nobody is responsible for what this man did but himself.

CO: But he went out looking for the treasure you put there, so how are you feeling about that?

FF: Well, anytime somebody gets off the couch and kids out of the game room and away from the texting machines and go into the Rocky Mountains looking for my treasure I'm tickled to death with that. It's sad when somebody gets lost, but I've said over and over you should not look for my treasure in the wintertime. You know them the winter mountains are not your friend when there's snow and ice on the ground there. I don't know what else I can say.

CO: Well, you know I'm sure you've heard that since you put that treasure there, there have been other people with not enough experience perhaps. A woman got caught in the dark and when she was out looking for it. There have been others who had to be rescued by rangers. And there's some people damaged some sensitive archaeological sites looking for your treasure. Does any of that give you pause?

FF: What you say is true, but how many people have been lost and in the mountains hunting for dear or elk over the years? I mean if somebody gets lost in the mountains while they're hunting does that mean we should stop hunting?

CO: So you are you going to call off the treasure hunt?

FF: No, I would not call off the treasure hunt. 65,000 people have had a wonderful experience in the mountains looking for my treasure. And I get a hundred and twenty emails a day from people that thank me for hiding that treasure. And I got an email from one man who said he had not spoken to his brother for 17 years, but he called his brother and now they're out looking for the treasure. I mean that's very rewarding to me. Occasionally someone gets lost and I'm very sad about that. It's unfortunate, but you should not be looking for my treasure in the wintertime.

JD: From our archives, that was Forest Fenn in conversation with Carol in February 2016. He was talking about a man who had gone missing while searching for his hidden treasure. Now, one other man has disappeared and is presumed dead after going hunting for that same treasure. This week, the New Mexico state Police chief called on Forest Fenn to end the treasure hunt saying quote, “I would implore that he stop this nonsense.” In light of this latest disappearance, Mr. Fenn does see that he is thinking about how to make the treasure hunt safer or about canceling it altogether. But that he has not yet decided either way.

[Music: Ambient]

Apex predator

JD: You have been looking forward to eating leftovers all day. But when you're finally there hunkered down over the deer carcass, a terrifying sound suddenly bursts from the darkness.

SOUNDCLIP

RACHEL MADDOW: What I have here is a copy of Donald Trump's tax returns. We have his federal tax return for one year — for 2005. I believe this is the only set of the president's federal taxes that reporters have ever gotten a hold of.

JD: Naturally you bolt establishing once and for all who is really at the top of the food chain: Rachel Maddow. Actually the results of this particular study are broader than that. Turns out mountain lions, apex predators at the top of the food chain in their habitats, aren't just intimidated by Ms. Maddow. They are equally frightened of Rush Limbaugh, Amy Goodman, and Glenn Beck. I know! We're all scared of at least two of those people. But these are giant, powerful animals with big teeth that can jump 12 meters and sprint up to 80 kilometers an hour we're talking about. So two questions: why are they scared of pundits? And what inhuman human would subject them to all that opinionated hollering? Well the answer to question 2 is scientists from the University of California at Santa Cruz. And the answer to question 1 is that mountain lions aren't specifically scared of political commentators. Those are just the voices the researchers use to prove their point. See the big cats return repeatedly to what are called “kill sites”, where they leave the remains of their prey. So scientists set up motion sensitive cameras in those areas. And when the mountain lines triggered those cameras they also triggered recordings of human voices, which presumably for the scientists amusement, were the voices of the aforementioned hectoring pundits. For example,

SOUNDCLIP

RUSH LIMBAUGH: I get panicked phone calls from friends my gosh, Rush, When is this just going to end? This just can't continue like this. I've never seen anything like it.

JD: More than 80 per cent of the cats immediately bolted. More than 50 per cent of them never return to finish their dead deer or whatever. Which is significant because it proves even an apex predator is scared of the greatest super predator of all: us. And that proves that our scary presence can throw off a whole ecosystem. So to protect pumas and the whole balance of nature in their habitats, we will need to speak softly and abandon the big shtick.

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June 22, 2017 episode transcript

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