Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2016

The Current Transcript for June 5, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Phone ringing]

[Sound: Woman crying]

[Unintelligible] police service what is the emergency.

Ahhh [crying] Oh my God.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It begins with a 27 year old homeless woman who is desperate 911 call is hijacked by her attacker who pretends to be the victim and continues with a scenario that sees the victim jailed and forced to testify in shackles. In a moment CBC's Janice Johnston brings us the story behind the story of why Alberta’s justice minister had to apologize for the seeming injustice of the provinces court system. Also today.

SOUNDCLIP

I ran off the [unintelligible] stabbing them girl, three of them. I was defenceless. I couldn’t do nothing, like..

Hhmmm

And then I attacked her, and then I stabbed another girl.. [unintelligible].

AMT: Witnesses talking on the weekend for all its seeming randomness a British counterterrorism expert had warned the authorities of precisely the kind of attack we saw Saturday night in London. But even he admits it's extremely difficult to avert. In an hour we'll hear from him as we ask what those fighting the extremists are learning from the three terror attacks that have hit Britain in the last three months. And Canada's environment minister says the fight does not end with the Trump administration's rejection of the Paris climate accord. But her own critics wonder how the commitment can work when Canada is approving pipelines. In half an hour we will hear from the minister Catherine McKenna and from the director of the U.N. Environment Program, a Norwegian man whose own country is moving away from fossil fuels. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

'I'm the victim and look at me, I'm in shackles': Alberta sexual assault victim jailed while testifying

Guest: Janice Johnston

AMT: Well exactly two years ago today a 27 year old woman who's being named Angela cardinal took the stand in an Edmonton courtroom. She was there to testify at the preliminary hearing of a man charged with sexually assaulting her. She had been the victim of a horrific attack but the judge in the case ordered her to be held in an Edmonton jail for five nights. She had not committed any crime. There has been a lot of discussion about the way sexual assault complainants are treated by the justice system. But this story is particularly disturbing so disturbing that the provinces justice minister apologized for what happened to the victim. The CBC's Janice Johnston uncovered the harrowing details that led to that apology. Janice Johnson joins me from Edmonton and I should warn you the story we're about to hear contains some disturbing details about sexual assaults. Hi Janice.

JANICE JOHNSTON: Good morning, Anna Maria.

AMT: Let's start at the beginning of all of this. Tell me about Angela Cardinal.

JANICE JOHNSTON: Well I think I should probably start by saying that is not her real name because her identity is protected by a court ordered publication ban. She was a victim of sexual assault and her family, well they describe her as a fighter. She was only 5 foot 1, weighed barely over 100 pounds. She was a mother of four young children. But none of them lived with her. Cardinal I'm told like to write poems and stick them in her sock because she figured that if one fell out it just might make somebody smile. She was Cree from Maskwacis, that's a community in central Alberta. And bottom line she was a homeless woman who was just trying to survive.

AMT: And what happened to her in this sexual assault case.

JANICE JOHNSTON: One night Angela cardinal was curled up by a baseboard heater in the stairwell of a central Edmonton apartment building. It was around 6:30. She was quietly singing ‘This Little Light Of Mine’ so she could lull herself to sleep. Cardinal had no idea a notorious sexual predator lived in that same building. Lance Blanchard a mountain of a man at 6 foot 7 260 pounds. He has spent most of his adult life in prison and that night Angela cardinal became his next victim.

AMT: What did he do to her?

JANICE JOHNSTON: He woke her up dragged her up the stairs to his apartment. She said that he got her through the door kicking and screaming. Now I was able to get a recording of Cardinal's testimony from the preliminary hearing. I have to tell you the sound quality is not the best but you will get a sense of the attack in Angela Cardinal's own words. She's being questioned here by Crown Prosecutor Patricia Innes.

SOUNDCLIP

[Unintelligible] no where.

What kind of a knife?

It was red.

Did the knife touch you?

Inside my head.

JANICE JOHNSTON: You can hear Angela cardinal explaining to the Crown Prosecutor how Lance Blanchard touched a knife to her head.

[sc]

[Woman crying] Please.. please here, God help me. Oh God.

Be quiet.

[Woman screaming]

AMT: But Janice he's talking over her and he's making it up as if he makes the 911 call to fool them.

JANICE JOHNSTON: Well remember I told you Lance Blanchard is a career criminal, and he is actually making up a story on the fly. He's trying to set it up to look like the knife attack was done in self-defence.

SOUNDCLIP

[Woman screaming] Help me.

Are you Lance?

Get someone here I am holding her down.

Yes, we have police cars on route.

Are there any weapons involved?

She tried to grab my knife that was on my table.

[Woman screaming] He stabbed me…

I just [unintelligible] the knife away from her.

[Woman screaming] [Unintelligible] Help me. Help.

AMT: This is harrowing Janice.

JANICE JOHNSTON: It really gives you a sense of how vicious the attack was.

AMT: Oh my gosh I can't imagine. And it's just like.. her voice.

JANICE JOHNSTON: Her voice, and when you take a look at some of this exhibit photos that I was able to obtain from the courts you see it was a mess inside that apartment. There's blood streaks everywhere. Furniture has been turned over. Clothing is strewn about. One of those exhibit photos does show bruising around Cardinals neck. And she said that during that 911 call that Blanchard actually tried to choke her to try and make her quiet during the call. However, ultimately the police believed her story not Blanchard's.

AMT: So it was so Lance Blanchard is charged and this goes to court?

JANICE JOHNSTON: Yes. The preliminary hearing was held one year after Angela cardinal was attacked. Now by June of 2015 she was still homeless. A subpoena had been issued for her to testify. But as you can imagine there was no address to send it to. By chance she happened to approach a couple of police officers that she was friendly with. They executed the subpoena put her up in a hotel for a couple of nights and then took her to court to testify. However it didn't go too well that first day. Here is a portion of her exchange with the Crown Prosecutor. The very first day that she took the stand at the preliminary hearing.

SOUNDCLIP

I know you don’t want to be here, but we need you to try and tell us what happened, okay?

I don’t want to see these people.

JANICE JOHNSTON: Angela cardinal says she doesn't want to see these people, that they're no good. Evil.

SOUNDCLIP

I really don’t know why you guys let him out in the first place. This has ruined my life?

JANICE JOHNSTON: She's talking about Lance Blanchard. And she says this has ruined her life.

SOUNDCLIP

He can get away with whatever he did?

JANICE JOHNSTON: And that he thinks he can get away with what he did.

AMT: So even though she had wanted to press charges she was reluctant to testify against Lance Blanchard in court because she doesn't want to see him, she does not want to be in the same room with him, huh?

JANICE JOHNSTON: Well, imagine what it would be like to suddenly have to face the man who had terrorized you. She was scared and angry to see Lance Blanchard again you can hear that in her voice. And on top of that on that first day she was physically and mentally unprepared to testify. She kept falling asleep at the courthouse. She was having trouble focusing. Now since then I've spoken to the prosecutor and she tells me that in hindsight she figures Angela was likely sleep deprived and malnourished just from living on the streets. But at the time she didn't know what the problem was with Angela. So The Crown asked the judge to put her star witness into the Edmonton Remand Center.

AMT: The Edmonton Remand Center is a jail, right?

JANICE JOHNSTON: It is.

AMT: So they put her in custody and she's the victim?

JANICE JOHNSTON: Exactly. The Crown prosecutor wanted to be sure that she'd testify so she did ask to have Angela Cardinal remanded in custody.

AMT: And the judge agrees to put her in jail?

JANICE JOHNSTON: The transcript shows that the judge Rye Badnarek was a somewhat reluctant participant. a defense lawyer was rushed into the courtroom as a so-called friend of the court so she could represent Cardinal, protect her interests. But the lawyer didn't put up a fight over her client being incarcerated. In the end the judge said quote She was unable to answer the questions put to her by the crown. She was simply incapable of participating properly in the court proceedings today so she will be remanded. That was a Friday afternoon, Anna Maria. So Cardinal was forced to spend the weekend in the mental health unit at the Edmonton Remand Center under court ordered observation because at that point there were concerns that she was suicidal.

AMT: Is that even legal? How can a sex assault victim be put in jail at this point? She isn't the one who's done anything wrong.

JANICE JOHNSTON: Well there is a section in the criminal code that allows a judge to lock up a witness, but that's if he or she refuses to answer any questions on the witness stand. That is the section that Provincial Court judge Ray Badnarek used to send Angela Cardinal to the remand center.

AMT: How unusual is that chance?

JANICE JOHNSTON: Very rare. I did some research on this found out that it has happened in Canada before. Not very often and only when the witness absolutely refuses to answer any question or insists that they won't return to court. Now as you heard Cardinal was trying to answer the questions and she did promise to return to court on the following Monday. Anna Maria I have to tell you that everybody I've contacted for this story has been shocked by what happened here.

SOUNDCLIP

I felt really really sad and certainly angry as well.

JANICE JOHNSTON: Deb Tomlinson is the head of The Association of Alberta Sexual Assault Services and she told me she's never heard of a victim being treated this way.

SOUNDCLIP

First of all that this young woman was taken advantage of and sexually assaulted and then was re-traumatized by the system that she sought to seek justice for. Victims of sexual assault require a great deal of support in order to give testimony. And this was the farthest thing from Victim Support that I've ever seen.

AMT: So, Angela spends the weekend in jail in remand and then comes back to court on Monday. Did that make it easier for her to testify?

JANICE JOHNSTON: Well it did. It seemed to after she had some rest and got three square meals a day. You can hear it in the way she sounds on the witness stand, she's more clear, more coherent. However, she is very angry about being locked up and indignant that she had to testify the entire time wearing leg shackles.

AMT: She's in shackles?

JANICE JOHNSTON: She is. Hear it for yourself. Here's an exchange that Angela cardinal had with the judge.

SOUNDCLIP

I know [unintelligible] and I do apologize for not [unintelligible]

You were not in good shape on Friday, yes you were not.

No

Like, you are in much better shape today.

Yes

So, I think you'll be able to make some progress today, but we are not going to be able to finish today, because...

But can I be un-remanded? Because these shackles [unintelligible]. I t’s not a pleasant scene.

It’s not a pleasant scene.

No. [Unintelligible]

I understand.

But I am the freaking victim, you are [unintelligible] me like, come on.

I understand, so

[ unintelligible] I should not have came, I know. I should not have came. This is like, bad [unintelligible]

AMT: You can hear the frustration and the indignation.

JANICE JOHNSTON: You know, and what's especially ironic is that Cardinal was on the stand for less than an hour that day after spending all weekend in jail because they didn't even call her to the witness stand until late in the afternoon on the Monday. So, just before court ended. Angela tried one more time to convince the judge to let her go. And once again you can hear the sound of her leg shackles as she speaks.

SOUNDCLIP

Do I really have to be remanded? Can I just go at my mother’s?

The court has very serious concerns that we will not get you back in court, if you [unintelligible]

I will come.

And I didn’t lie to you in the whole way since of this point of being [unintelligible]

You are going to go back to remand [unintelligible]

Why? You ruined my life.

So, I don’t want you talking to Mr. Blanchard. We are going to make sure that all efforts will be made to keep you separate from Mr. Blanchard, so that there is no accidental contact between the two of you.

I am the victim, look at me. I am in shackles. This is fantastic, this is great.. Freaking.. This is a great system.

AMT: So Janice she says You've ruined my life she's.. Blanchard must be in the courtroom. She kind of points to him is that what's going on there?

JANICE JOHNSTON: Yes. That comment was directed right at Lance Blanchard. You ruined my life.

AMT: The judge says I don't want you talking to him?

JANICE JOHNSTON: Exactly.

AMT: OK. OK.

JANICE JOHNSTON: And promise to keep the two of them apart from each other for Angela cardinal's own safety.

AMT: So what happens next is she end up staying in jail for another night?

JANICE JOHNSTON: Actually she had to spend another two nights in jail. And despite that promise of keeping her separate from Blanchard, I found out later that she actually had to ride in the same tightly confined prisoner transport van with Blanchard, at least twice, from the remand center down to the courthouse. That's a long ride. During court breaks, she was actually put into an adjacent cell in the basement of the courthouse. So she didn't get to stay away from him at all.

AMT: That..that's incredible. This is a woman who is forced into close quarters with a man charged with her brutal sexual assault. Was there a lawyer or someone advocating for her?

JANICE JOHNSTON: The court appointed lawyer actually asked to be removed from representing her. Because the lawyer thought that she was doing more harm than good. She was just making Angela Cardinal more angry about the situation and Cardinal's family was in the dark. They had no idea at that point she'd even been sexually assaulted, much less put in jail to testify about it.

AMT: OK so how does her family react when they do learn about this?

JANICE JOHNSTON: I met with Angela cardinal's mother at the beginning of April and I shared the horrific details of the story with her. Now we can't name the mom because of this publication ban on Angela Cardinal's real name but I can tell you that her mother was appalled especially by the idea of Angela being kept in such close quarters and even riding in the same van with Lance Blanchard.

SOUNDCLIP

Right in her same van? How could they do that? They are so shellfish. Why she's shackled?

I don't know.

Why was she in remand? Why in there? The stupidest things are.. He is there, and they put her in there? That is dumb? It's not right. After all what he did to her and it's not fair.

AMT: Janice why are you the one telling her mother about this? Why didn't she hear it from her daughter or someone else?

JANICE JOHNSTON: I'm afraid I have yet one more shocking twist to this story, Anna Maria. Seven months after Angela Cardinal testified at Blanchard's preliminary hearing in a completely random unrelated incident she was accidentally shot and killed. So Angela Cardinal never got a chance to testify again in this case.

AMT: And she was never able to see Lance Blanchard brought to justice then?

JANICE JOHNSTON: No. But Blanchard was ordered to stand trial. And during that trial The Crown did win the right to play the audiotapes of Angela cardinal's testimony for the judge. It was on the strength of that testimony along with solid forensic evidence that Blanchard was ultimately convicted of aggravated assault, kidnapping, unlawful confinement aggravated sexual assault and threatening to cause death or bodily harm.

AMT: So, when he convicted Blanchard did the higher court judge have anything to say about the way Angela Cardinal was treated during the preliminary hearing?

JANICE JOHNSTON: He did. It was a postscript something very unusual for a judge to do but in a postscript to his 49 page decision Queen Bench Justice Eric Macklin offered an apology to Angela Cardinal. He said he was troubled that quote her treatment by the justice system was appalling. She is owed an apology.

AMT: The poor woman she's dead now. She didn't get the apology.

JANICE JOHNSTON: No she didn't. But last month Alberta’s Justice Minister Kathleen Ganley did offer an apology to cardinal's mother.

AMT: But Janice you were the one who revealed the details of this case to the justice minister. Am I right?

JANICE JOHNSTON: Yes you are. I did share those details. And the court decision with Kathleen Ganley she told me that what happened to Angela Cardinal was quote shocking appalling and completely unacceptable.

SOUNDCLIP

I know there's nothing that can ever be done to make it out but I certainly hope we can find a way to never let this happen again.

JANICE JOHNSTON: Ganley told me she's never even heard of this section of the criminal code being used before and that she's definitely never seen a case like this.

[asc]

She should not have been put in there. She was the victim. We should have treated her as the victim. And I think it definitely speaks to a series of wrong decisions and a series of systemic failures that would have allowed us to do something like this to this young woman.

AMT: And in the meantime what has become of Angela cardinal's attacker?

JANICE JOHNSTON: I can tell you that Lance Blanchard remains behind bars and The Crown will be asking to have him designated as a dangerous offender.

JANICE JOHNSTON: Such a disturbing, incredibly disturbing story Janice Johnson. Thanks for your reporting.

JANICE JOHNSTON: You're very welcome.

AMT: Janice Johnson is a reporter for the CBC based in Edmonton. Let us know what you think about what she had to say. You can tweet us. We are at the current CBC. Go to our e-mail address. Go to our website cbc.ca/the current and e-mail us about this story as you listen to that. The news is next and then U.S. President Donald Trump delivered on this promise.

SOUNDCLIP

The United States will withdraw from the Paris Climate Accord.

AMT: While there was applause at the U.S. exit from the Paris agreement by G7 leaders are not cheering on this Environment Day we're talking Paris pipelines and energy with the minister of the environment Catherine McKenna. And after that what police may not may or may not have known about the three men whose terror attack left a Canadian woman among the dead. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is the current on CBC Radio 1 Sirius XM Online on cbc.ca/the current and on your radio app.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Paris climate agreement: Without U.S., what's next move for world leaders.

Guests: Catherine McKenne, Eric solheim

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come we will hear from an anti-terror adviser who told police in January to expect the kind of low tech terror attack that London confronted this weekend. But first Donald Trump says the Paris agreement is bad for business. And while G7 leaders don't like it, his administration wants the world to know they're not sorry at all.

SOUNDCLIP

When it comes to environmental agreements international agreements with respect to things like The Paris Agreement is we have nothing to be apologetic about, as a country.

AMT: Well nothing to apologize for is how the administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency the EPA Scott Pruitt defended the U.S. president's decision to pull out of the Paris Agreement, the global agreement to curb the effects of climate change.

SOUNDCLIP

We have reduced our CO2 footprint to levels of the early 1990s and in fact from 2000 to 2014 we reduced our carbon footprint by over 18 percent and that's been largely accomplished through innovation and technology not government mandate. So when we look at issues like this we are leading with action and not words.

AMT: The aftershocks of President Trump's exit from The Paris Agreement are being felt all over the world including in Canada today as Canada hosts World Environment Day the largest global celebration of the environment. We're asking just how much we have to celebrate and taking stock of the work that lies ahead to do that I'm joined by two people Erik Solheim is the executive director of the U.N. Environment Program. It is the sponsor of World Environment Day. He's in Niagara on the lake in Ontario to mark the event along with Canada's minister of the Environment and Climate Change Catherine McKenna. Hello to you both.

ERIC SOLHEIM: Hello. How are you?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Hello.

AMT: Catherine McKenna I'll begin with you. What do you think. Does the U.S. have anything to apologize for, after pulling out of the Paris climate accord?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well the past government certainly doesn't. We worked extraordinarily closely with the past government to get an ambitious Paris agreement. I think it's very unfortunate, the position of the new government is taken, because we all understand that climate change is real I hope and that we need to be taking action together. And the Paris Agreement is a flexible agreement. So U.S. could decide what action it's going to take. I think it's unfortunate that they won't be at the table. But I always say if you want to get a better deal then sit at the table 90 percent of the rules still remain to be negotiated. But I think the good news has come out of the last well since the U.S. administration made their decision. You've seen across the United States, states have stepped up. I spoke with the governor of California and also the governor of Washington State. It's either going all in on climate action. U.S. businesses have stepped up. The president the CEO of Goldman Sachs for the first time opened a Twitter account so he could tweet his disappointment with the U.S. administration's position, and also cities and Marc Garneau was actually in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh was mentioned in the president's speech and the mayor of Pittsburgh said we're all in on climate action. So we're going to be working with all the partners who believe that we need to be taking action for the future of our planet for our children or grandchildren, and also because of the huge economic opportunity.

AMT: So do we need governments at all in this?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Absolutely. I mean governments have to take a leadership role. You know there are policies that governments you know will put in place. We've taken a number of measures across Canada working with the provinces and territories, taking the input of assets in things like phasing out coal which is actually just pollution we don't like pollution. Pollution is bad for health. It's also bad for the long term of our planet, putting a price on carbon pollution so that you get the innovation that we all want. So government has a role to play but government isn't the only actors. Certainly government needs to be working with business. It needs to be working with other levels of government. In Canada I was just talking to the big city mayors. They're all in on climate action and of course we need to be working with citizens, and I'm really proud in Canada that Canadians are serious about climate action and today's a great day because it's World Environment Day and I'm very proud that we're hosting with the UN Environment Program and Erik Solheim because I think it highlights when we connect with nature we realize just how important it is to protect it.

AMT: Erik Solheim. Okay, we see all these corporations and municipalities and other governments in other words citizens in the U.S. want to get involved but on an international stage you don't have the U.S. in the agreement what does that mean for the agreement?

ERIC SOLHEIM: Well, this creates some unfortunate development decision by term. But it's I think the impact is much less than most people believe for the two main reasons we have touched upon. One is that as you say the private sector is the large driving is from the United States those who fall from main companies all the main companies of the modern economy, The Apple's, The Google’s The Microsoft. Even mention John by Goldman and Sachs or Blackrock that came out in opposition to the president but much more important [unintelligible] we will move ahead, we would renewable, whatever happens in the White House, because we believe in this. It is good for the customers, is good for business. It's good for the planet. And just they are very positive development because Europe, China, India, Canada, Japan, everyone else has decided to lead. And we see now an enormous transformation in particular in China and India and to big [unintelligible] and to big nations and they go much faster than anyone expected, just a couple of years back.

AMT: Catherine McKenna, President Trump argues that the agreement implements draconian financial burdens on the US. What do you say to that?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: I mean in fact it's the opposite. Mark Carney the former governor of the Bank of Canada now the governor of Bank of England has called it a 30 trillion dollar opportunity. There's a huge opportunity for the innovation that's needed to move to a lower carbon economy. And as Eric was just talking about I mean China and India are making huge investments in solar in renewables and also when I went to China I brought a trade mission last year and the Chinese government said to us we want Canadian solutions for clean air clean water soil remediation. And this is a huge opportunity and we're not going to miss it. And if the U.S. is going to step back we're going to step in because it's the right thing to do but it's also going to grow our economy and create good jobs here in Canada.

AMT: And yet some calculations suggest the U.S. withdrawal could result in emissions up to 2.7 billion tons of additional carbon dioxide in the air I year. How can that be mitigated?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well I was talking to Patricia Espinosa's who's the head of the U.N. Climate Organization and we were talking about how we're going to work much closer, much more closely with private with states and with cities and with businesses and highlight their action. Cities actually control almost 50 percent of emissions. So, cities actually take serious action. They can have a huge impact. And the great thing I think about the Paris Agreement is it sends a signal to the markets and this is really important that the reason that you have business stepping out is not just because it's a good thing to do and I think it's good that business for stepping up as good corporate citizens but also because of the opportunity. And in Canada we are actually providing the certainty they by having a solid regulatory framework, by explaining all our policies, by working with them and in the US is actually creating some a great deal of uncertainty rolling back previous Obama regulations. But I really think that there's a huge opportunity to be working together and in fact all this emphasis on what was the U.S. when the decision is made are they going to be, will they going to be in , they will going to be out. It has actually made people much more familiar with the Paris Agreement. It made people step up and really be very loud in saying the U.S. should be part of the Paris Agreement. And I've seen them resolve by other countries haven't we. And when the U.S. =withdrew we announced that we would be co-hosting with China and the European Union ministerial meeting of major economies to advanced action under the Paris agreement. And I think there's a lot of will out there and I think we now are just going to move forward if the U.S. is going to step back. And by that you it's the administration that Canada is going to step up with other countries.

AMT: Well I want to turn to a Canadian issue now given what's happening and B.C. politics it looks as if there will be an NDP government with support from the Green Party. Both have pledged to stop the Trans Mountain pipeline. What is the future of that project?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well we've been very clear from the start we've said the environment and the economy go together and this is a transition. We're not going to transition overnight and we need to figure out how do we get a resource to market and how do we do it in the most sustainable way possible and how do we move to a low lower carbon future. And that's what we've done and we made our decision on the Trans Mountain pipeline. We did it based on facts and evidence and science. We did a lot of outreach. I worked very closely with my counterpart Jim Carr and we think it's a good project and it's a good project for Canada. Of course we still need to be moving to a lower carbon future. But this is a project is going to create good jobs and is actually going to allow us to have the money that we need for the transition. And the Prime Minister's been very clear he said we wouldn't have a price on carbon if we didn't have pipelines and we wouldn’t have pipelines without a price on carbon so it all goes together. I am sympathetic to those that believe you know we've got to move as fast as we can. We do and we're working extremely hard. But you can't do it one day to the next. And certainly with the new B.C. government we will see you know, what's going to happen and we have been working very closely with all governments throughout our climate plan. The amount of time we have gone back and forth. I've gone back and forth. Our officials have gone back and forth to figure out a plan that works for Canadians and we're going to continue to do that because we are much stronger together.

AMT: Well couldn't the ABC government delay this though.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well we're certainly going to continue having conversations. We'll see what happens in British Columbia but we believe it's a good project and we're certainly going to be making that case and we're going to be making the case that we need to be doing other things like the oceans protection ban which makes, very significant investments to protect the ocean and have the proper to have the proper response. I'm certainly going to be working with =whomever the government is on serious climate action and also on jobs and investment.

AMT: But what do you say to environmental groups who say Canada cannot meet its own carbon targets when large energy projects such as this one are being approved?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well we do have a plan to meet our target. I think that's really important that people understand that that we in.. The Alberta government has put a hard cap on emissions from the oil [unintelligible]. And so this actually fits within a hard cap for the first. And we have an Alberta government that has taken serious action on climate change which has actually allowed us to get a plan across Canada. They put a price on carbon pollution. They believe that that's the right thing to do. They put a hard cap on emissions in the oil sands first time ever. They are phasing out coal they're making investments in renewables. They're fostering innovation. So look I mean as I said it's not going to happen. You know one day to the next. And people need jobs. We need to be making sure that as we move forward we're being smart and thoughtful about this because you know we're only going to be able to bring Canadians onboard. Canadians also see the way forward that they can sell food on the table. They feel part of the plan. And I really believe strongly that the environment minister not just for environmentalists but for all Canadians.

AMT: Erik Solheim. You know you were a government minister in Norway. Give us some insights because your energy sector has had to adapt.

ERIC SOLHEIM: I think Norway and Canada are facing a lot of the same challenges and without being a expert on Canada. But how to transform from oil based economies into more renewables, and that's a big challenge in Norway. And we know that we need to change but how to do it is all the difficult. To look to the big global picture of what we see now is that there is an enormous surge in green jobs in. The United States for example there are 400000 jobs in solar something like 70000 jobs in coal. So it's ridiculous as to how some politicians speak as if the main jobs are in coal. Globally last year there was a lot more electricity coming into the global grid from solar and wind down from coal gas and coal combined. So we have passed the point of no return. We are moving fast globally in the right direction but we need to speed up and make it even more urgent.

AMT: Do I understand correctly Mr. Solheim? So in fact Norway is using more renewable energy than fossil fuels and your fossil fuel production is really for export.

ERIC SOLHEIM: No. [Unintelligible]. Norway is historically completely renewable in the sense that the hydroectical power is the mainstay of the electricity system. So electricity is full for the hydro and all it’s for other purposes, but it's not that Norway has a lot to brag about. Norway also needs to change. We have a huge oil from the Norway which could be invested, in and to make them in a better place. But there are parallels to the challenges of Canada and Norway, in the sense that we have historically been fossil fuel based and the need to change into the enormous new opportunities of the rapidly evolving fascinating dream world.

AMT: Am I correct in understanding that it was a Norwegian state owned oil company that pulled out of the oil sands recently?

ERIC SOLHEIM: That was long for all and all years have as Minister of Environment. And they recently stepped down and withdrew from the oil sands [unintelligible] but after many years of discussion. And starting now need to move into winds. They have enormous expertise in offshore oil and they can turn turn that off shore experience expertise into being platforms for offshore wind so [unintelligible] also need to transform them as part of that package. They have withdrawn from Alberta.

AMT: And that that was a big debate inside the country, was it?

ERIC SOLHEIM: It was a big debate when I was minister and Lyman for sure. I had a number of quarrels wit the Prime Minister. I mean I saved Norway withdrawals from [unintelligible]. He was he was in favor of it so. That is normal in politics we have different views.

AMT: Well but explain it to us a bit because of course it comes down to jobs and that's the argument always when it comes down to looking at Canadian energy that it's. So, what was the public reaction to that? How has the government weathered that decision?

ERIC SOLHEIM: I think there is a very rapidly increasing realisation in Norway, the need to have more feet to walk on. We have been too oil both added to the hydroelectric power as I said, and the need to rapidly moving in term of renewable future. But if take the global picture there is a very very very fast developing [unintelligible]. China and India are at the core of that. That is a discussion Catherine pointed to. Because the markets of China and India are so enormous, so when they do it at scale it brings down the price, and price is key for people to move into the green future. And that's what they are seeing now. Prime Minister Modi is an example in India, he is electrifying the villages of India providing a number of green jobs and doing good for the environment. He has sent out a couple of tweets today, The World Environment Day. He has 30 plus million followers, approximately as many as Donald Trump. But of course [unintelligible] he is not as well known in North America, as [unintelligible] or Trump. But Modi is moving India very fast to the renewable future, and so are the Chinese leadership doing in China and that is an enormous implication for the rest of the World.

AMT: And Catherine McKenne given how fast India and China are moving on this, can't Canada get left behind on green energy, alternative energy technology?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well we're not. That's a great thing. And when I go to China as I said I bring a trade mission with me and I say you are our solutions. It's all hands on deck right now. And it's the countries that position themselves, while we recognize where the future is going that are going to be the ones who take advantage of the opportunities. I was just with in a Canadian company and California that actually takes carbon dioxide out of the emissions that you don't want, from industry and inject it into cement and it is called Carbon Cure. And it's from Nova Scotia and it makes stronger cement. And so these are the innovations that the world needs. And so we want to be well-positioned and that's why you know our policies are designed to create the right incentives that we figure out how do we produce our resources. How do we, in a way that's more sustainable that pollutes less, and the solutions we'll use them here and we'll act for them and create good jobs and that's up all of government approach. Very proud that all of our government is working very hard. So look at how do we find new innovations in the transportation sector, Ballard Power and fuel cell busses, now are a huge hit in short. And I think that one city is now about a thousand buses. I mean that's really the innovation that we want we want Canadian companies to be out there and that's going to create good jobs and we know that's the opportunity. And as I say if the U.S. administration is going to pull back we're going to step up and there we're going to create good jobs and growth here in Canada.

AMT: Okay. Two questions for you then. Carbon Cure from Nova Scotia, are they working in Nova Scotia as well? They have offices here? Are they doing this in Canada?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Yeah. So I was in I was in Nova Scotia where it was, Dartmouth Nova Scotia and I went and visited their offices there and like companies I mean think of how much cement is used, if we can reduce the carbon footprint of cement. That is huge.

AMT: And what about Ballard Power you say is selling buses in China. How many cities have bought their bosses in Canada?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well I mean I think that they are looking at this but this is what we need to do. For the past 10 years, we had a government that said no action serious action to tackle climate change. So people talk about the target. They had no plan. The mission just went up and they had no serious measures to tackle climate change, and hope is not a strategy. So you need to actually have a plan. We're very pleased. Today we're introducing our government is, introducing a motion in the House to express support for the Paris agreement and we certainly hope all parties step up and all members of parliament vote in favor of it because we think it's very important that Canada continues to lead and that we continue to move forward with the rest of the world.

AMT: The federal government has said it will impose a carbon tax on provinces that do not implement one of their own. Saskatchewan premier Brad Wall has vowed to fight this in court. What's the future of that pledge?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well we've been very clear we would like provinces to step up and design their own plans and put a price on what we don't want which is pollution and get what we do want which is innovation, and we have businesses across Canada who supported us, from the oil sands to our major banks to major consumer goods companies. And provinces are well able to design a system that makes sense for them. In fact on the books Saskatchewan has a plan that is not similar to what we would propose. The province doesn't bring in their own plan. We hope that that Saskatchewan will do that with the revenues would go back to Saskatchewan this is not a revenue for the federal government it's doing what is right.

AMT: what if they have it on the books why is he saying he's going to go to court? Like what's going on?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, I would suggest ask him but..

AMT: are you ready to go to court. Are you ready to go to court with Saskatchewan on this if you have to?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: So I would think it's a bad idea to go to court but we're well within our rights to regulate for the environment. So it shouldn't.. you know we should be working together to figure out how we move to a low carbon future either. In Saskatchewan I've talked in a lot of time with Saskatchewan businesses with the universities they are there's huge innovation in the agricultural field. Zero till agriculture climate resilient crops. I think we should all just get on with that. And the revenues that it's up to Saskatchewan's to decide they could get the revenues back to the people of Saskatchewan. And that's what we're looking at with our plan if we have to bring in a prize for in Saskatchewan. We're looking at how we can give the revenues directly back to businesses and consumers. But we think this is really the right thing to do and China is bringing in a price on pollution this year. The EU already has a price on pollution. We're meeting today with the Chileans the Chileans putting a price on pollution. Mexico has a price on pollution. California the sixth largest economy in the world has a price on.

AMT: OK so let me just interrupt you then because you know there are people who do not support this in Canada they're very vocal they're very upset. So what do you say to them?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: I say look we all hopefully believe that climate change is real. That we need to be figuring out smart policies to address climate change that putting a price on pollution. What we don't want which is bad it is bad for health is a way to reduce our emissions but also to create the innovations and in Saskatchewan in fact they have carbon capture and storage technology. It is only economic if you put a price on pollution because then it creates incentive for people to use it and to buy that technology. So this isn't a huge opportunity it's an economic opportunity. It's also for the future of our kids. I have three kids and I'm in this job because I believe that in politics you can make a real difference and you can create a better world. And so you know we want to be doing this togethe other end in Canada I am very proud that the prime minister stood with the Premier's and indigenous leaders and said this is a plan a serious plan that we're going to take and we've built this plan working with business with environmentalists the indigenous peoples and with all Canadians.

AMT: Before I let you go we're almost out of time Erik Solheim Why have you come to Canada for this environment day. :

ERIC SOLHEIM: Because the topic of the day is hard to connect to the nature because deep down all humans have a strong relationship to nature. If you want to focus on that we can’t be in a better place than Canada. You have the longest coastline or any nation in the world. Some of the biggest lakes in the nation in the world you have the fantastic huge Arctic regions but very few people but some Indigenous are living you know the great plains. I mean it's such a fantastic beautiful motion. You have a government to really want to force or had with protecting environment taking action so that is. And there is a number of to come here. OK we have to leave it there. Thank you both for speaking with me today.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Thanks so much. I hope everyone connects with nature on World Environment Day.

AMT: OK. Thank you very much. That is Erik Solheim executive director of the U.N. Environment Program. And Kathryn McKenna the Federal Minister of the environment and climate change. They joined us from Niagara on the Lake Ontario.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: In our next half hour as a Canadian family mourns the death of a beloved daughter we are asking about the attack that killed her and six others on and around the London Bridge this past weekend. We will speak with the CBC's Margaret Evans. She's standing by and as well as a counterterrorism expert who will offer his insights. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio 1 Sirius XM Online on cbc.ca/the current and on your radio app.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

London attack by ISIS was 'all too predictable,' says security expert

Guests: Margaet Evans, Sajjan Gohel

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

The police have now identified all three of the attackers. Eleven individuals are now being held in police custody following the search of two premises. JTA. That's the Independent Joint Terrorism Analysis Center has confirmed that the national threat level remains at severe. That means that a terrorist attack is highly likely. The police are working hard to establish the identity of all of those who were tragically killed or injured in the event. On Saturday night but it is now clear that sadly victims came from a number of nationalities. This was an attack on London and the United Kingdom but it was also an attack on the free world.

AMT: British Prime Minister Theresa May speaking this morning. And the first person to be identified among those killed as you've likely heard on the news is a 30 year old Canadian woman Christine Archibald from Castlegar B.C. She was among seven people killed Saturday night when three assailants plowed a van into pedestrians on the London Bridge and then drove to a nearby stretch of restaurants and pubs and attacked people with knives. The assailants were killed by police. 21 people remain in hospital today with critical injuries from those attacks and this latest attack comes just days before Britain's vote in a general election that election is Thursday. Yesterday London's mayor Sadik Khan said both the election and Londoners a way of life would carry on.

SOUNDCLIP

We're a stoic bunch. As Londoners, we are not going to allow terrorists to change our way of life we are going to carry on mingling the mixing of a Saturday night in London Bridge in Borough Market and elsewhere. We're going to go to the polls this Thursday and vote. We are not going to would these terrorists to disrupt general election, the way to change governments and our leaders is through the ballot box. What are these terrorists what? They want to destroy our way of life. They want to change the way we live. They want us to cower. We're not going to let them win. We're not going to be cowered by terrorism.

AMT: Well as you heard earlier too there were raids early today and yesterday and a number of people have been detained. Margaret Evans is the CBC's Europe correspondent. She's based in London. She's with us now. Hi Margaret.

MARGATET EVANS: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: What kind of extra security measures are in place in London today?

MARGATET EVANS: Well we saw coming up overnight these big concrete barriers on three of London's bridges along the Thames. A lot of people are asking why? You know, why wait until now? given there was that first attack that we saw in March on the Westminster Bridge in which four pedestrians were plowed down before the attacker Khalid Masood jumped out and then killed a police officer. So too little too late. Say some people but that's the biggest change in the city today and of course more visible street patrols from police officers and not just police officers but the military too. Sometimes you'll see walking down Oxford Street. A soldier and a police officer paired together and the soldiers carrying pretty big rifles in their arms.

AMT: And we heard the prime minister say the threat level is severe What does that really mean?

MARGATET EVANS: That's the second highest level. It basically means they haven't sort of raised it to critical which is considered the highest. So it means that they consider an attack highly likely.

AMT: Hmm. What can you tell us about reports that one or more of the people who were shot, the attackers who were killed by police may have been reported to police ahead of time?

MARGATET EVANS: Yeah that's these are reports circulating in the local British press pretty widely. Two in particular one from a woman who says that she's actually identified in the news reports as being named Erica Gaspari another man making the same allegations is not identified but in any case she said that she raised the alarm bells about one of the attackers because they are known to police but the police are not naming them. She said a couple of years ago she feared he was radicalizing children in the playground. And then someone who's identified as a former friend of the same man, said that he actually phoned you know the kind of anti-terrorism hotline here to alert people because he is friend he said was you know talking a lot about ISIS inspired terror attacks. You know you have to take this in the context of the fact that that the previous two attacks this year. Salman Abidi who was the man identified ,the native born Manchester attacker from two weeks ago who detonated his explosive device at this Ariana Grande's concert. He was known to police and so was Khalid Masood. Although they were not subjects of active investor nations. And so that's why there is so much concern about this. But the chairman of the Metropolitan Police was on the BBC today and asked specifically about these reports. She said she wouldn't talk about the identity of the three men but she said you know that it was worth pointing out that they have a lot of incoming calls. They've foiled 18 attacks since 2013 and she said, I will quote her directly you know, on occasion somebody will as my predecessor predicted get through and be successful and on occasion those people may have been known to the agencies before.

AMT: Hmm. The police made more raids this morning's , well, huh?

MARGATET EVANS: They did. They're focusing on two neighborhoods in east London. I think that one of the 12 people who've been arrested so far has actually been released. I think they still have in custody seven men and four women at present.

AMT: How do you think all of this will affect the final days of the campaign Margaret?

MARGATET EVANS: I think it's certainly made security the key issue and yesterday there was a lot of you know kind of unpleasant AKJ accusations flying back and forth between Teresa May’s governing Conservative Party and the opposition Labor Party each one accusing the other of kind of breaking the pledge not to campaign on a national level because they were making comments about security. The Labor Party sees this as a real opportunity to hit Theresa May because she was the home secretary before she became the prime minister. And they're really hammering away at her saying you know you cut the police services you don't have a plan in place. We've had these three attacks in less than three months. You know you've taken the funding away and sort of remove the powers that the police need to protect us. And then on the other hand the conservatives are you know accuse Jeremy Corbyn of being sympathetic to the IRA in the past and being on the record as opposing the police having the right to shoot to kill. Something he said that he certainly does in certain circumstances support that. So I think you know people that you're talking to on the streets certainly are saying that you know they think it's going to affect you know the election one way or the other in favor of their candidate or not, or their chosen party.

AMT: And of course there was the One Love Concert last night that proceeded as planned with Ariana Grande and many others in Manchester. What's the mood like today after a weekend like this?

MARGATET EVANS: Well, there is I mean you know you were playing that that clip of the Mayor of London Sadik Khan talking about British resolve, and there is that you know the clichéd stiff upper lip certainly is in place here. People saying we're not going to let this affect us but at the same time you know people are morose. This is this is just like a battering you know and it can't help but affect people emotionally. I've had a few people talk to me about how upset they were by Donald Trump's tweets he kind of was attacking The London Mayor and they thought it was just out of place in the you know, in the wake of these tragedies and you know really offended by it. And also you have to remember Britain has been through a really turbulent year politically because it's a divided country. They voted very narrowly to leave the European Union. So there's people wondering about what an isolated Britain means and in terms again of security. Are they stepping away from their European Union partners when they should be getting closer to them? So all of that is swirling around in the background and I know morose is the word that I would use. Yes we're going to carry on. Yes I'm still going to cycle to work and cross bridges and take the tube but just kind of just sad and down.

AMT: Hmm. Margaret thanks for your insights. Thanks a lot.

MARGATET EVANS: You're welcome.

AMT: Margaret Evans CBC Europe correspondent she's based in London England. Well this was the third terror attack in Britain within three months within nine weeks I guess. Sajjan Gohel is the director for international security at the Asia-Pacific Foundation and a visiting teacher in international history at the London School of Economics. He joins us from London. Hello.

SAJJAN GOHEL: Hello.

AMT: What did you think when you first heard of these attacks?

SAJJAN GOHEL: Unfortunately, my reaction was that this is all too predictable that we've seen this before not just in the UK with the Westminster attack a couple of months ago but we've seen it in Berlin, in France, with the Nice attack in Stockholm. This is a tried and tested tactic to kill by ISIS and sometimes it's accompanied with multiple stabbings. It's what they call just terror. What they're saying is pick up anything that you can take access and possession of a vehicle if you can turn it into a lethal weapon. Use it with deadly intent and that's what we've seen what happened with this attack is that it was aimed to kill people. That was aimed to create disruption. And the third goal is to try and create social tensions

AMT: You spoke to London police in January regarding potential threats to the city what did you tell them at that time?

SAJJAN GOHEL: Well one thing that I was seeing was a pattern emerge, in terms of the fact that ISIS through the propaganda material were openly talking about increasing the tempo of vehicle attacks that they were actually specifically mentioning London also as a target. And the other aspect was is that to be wary about the month of Ramadan as a time of terrorism, because last year they carried out about eight attacks across the world during that holy month. And then there are hijacking this important part from Muslims as well and on this occasion. So the police in fairness to them have been very much aware of what's going on they've been paying close attention to it the fact that they reacted with an eight minutes on the scene to the attacks just recently as illustration of that. But the problem is how do you pre-empt a plot where an individual will just get into a car and run people don't stab people. It is very difficult to have intelligence to thwart something like this.

AMT: And you say ISIS claimed responsibility is that in doubt at all and is that accepted?

SAJJAN GOHEL: Well the thing is this, is that whether it is inspired, directed or assisted it has the ISIS hallmarks. They have certainly got their fingerprints on it. I would actually say that the authorities right now are trying to find the physical network. But I strongly believe that there is a virtual network where you have these kind of guiding hand part of ISIS's intelligence apparatus known as the Emni that recruit people, motivate them, give them guidance, instruction as to who they should target, the individuals that they should go after and the location for it. They spell it out and we've seen the role of the Emni in the attacks in France, in Germany, in Belgium and I would not rule out the possibility of that similar type of virtual structure existing in the UK.

AMT: And the method of attack it's almost low tack. I mean I don't know what the word would be but there were no bombs to make there which. That makes it in some ways easier to go under the police radar doesn't.?

SAJJAN GOHEL: I'm afraid so. It is low tech as you described it. It is low tech low sophistication but nevertheless highly effective. It's not like the al Qaeda cell in which you had multiple people looking to hijack a plane, ram it into a building. This is simply about somebody unleashing violence using a vehicle or knives. As I was mentioning all its forms part of ISIS is tactic and called just terror. And they've gone into painstaking detail in their propaganda as to how people should go about doing it. They don't leave anything to chance and they realize more effective than a large scale mass casualty plot. Suddenly sometimes they may look at to do that just like in the Manchester attacks but they vary their strategies based on the occasion.

AMR: And now hours before this attack took place ISIS did put out a message on the telegram app telling its followers to go after people in vehicles to stab them. So you see this is what you're talking about the virtual connection?

SAJJAN GOHEL: Very much so. They use encrypted messaging to get their propaganda out also to plot and plan attacks. And it's not just the encrypted messaging they also operate in the dark web. That's effectively the wild west off the Internet where they can continue to operate freely uninhibited the intelligence agencies may be able to know what's going on to a degree but they don't know the full picture. And I think that is a disturbing irony that ISIS uses modern technology, new media to replicate medieval brutality.

AMT: Theresa May has said she wants to increase cyber security as part of the fight against terrorism. What do you think of what she's saying, given this?

SAJJAN GOHEL: Well we're about to enter a very difficult discussion as to our civil liberties. What we can have access to, also use of encrypted messaging for communication. Many people majority of people use it for honest intentions and to communicate safely for whatever reasons, business sometimes when they're abroad or with family members. Unfortunately the terrorists have used it also for a very nefarious means. Now there is going to have to be this conversation post the election with whoever becomes The Prime Minister. Whether Theresa May retains that position or party. Jeremy Corbyn working with social media companies the I.T. industry and work out a strategy where people can continue to use these platforms safely but prevent the terrorists from hijacking Kingdom.

AMT: And just give me some more insights into the timing of this attack. It's Ramadan. It's there's an election days away?

SAJJAN GOHEL: Right. And both events have coincided with this attack more than coincidence in fact. There's no doubt that they've carried out attack to time with the election. Just like they did if you recall in the first round of the French presidential elections there was an attack on a French police van in Paris, because they wanted to create disruption to the election just like they've tried to do here. They want to scare people. They want to intimidate them from voting. They want them to feel safe when they go to polling stations and this is unfortunately also been time to Ramadan ISIS has this warped thinking that they will be more successful if they can do it during Ramadan. They're trying to hijack the faith. they say again there were I think eight attacks last year across the Islamic world also in France and in the United States that I fear for what may happen next in this holy month.

AMT: Okay well some sobering thought some surgeon. Go ahead. Thank you for your insights today.

SAJJAN GOHEL: A pleasure.

AMT:That is Saajan go ahead director for international security at the Asia Pacific Foundation. He's a visitin In fight against ISIS, Iraqi army committing 'gravest of abuses' with impunity: expertg teacher in international history at the London School of Economics. He joined us from London.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

In fight against ISIS, Iraqi army committing 'gravest of abuses' with impunity: expert

Guest: Belkis Wille

AMT: You are listening to The Current on CBC Radio 1 I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Last week we brought you the story of Iraqi photojournalist Ali Arkady. He gained the trust of an elite security force in Iraq and documented them committing gruesome acts of torture and extra judicial killings. Now he's on the run for showing the world what his camera captured. And if you missed hearing the story you can visit our Web site to find it on our CBC Radio app. I spoke to Ed Kashi, who is a photojournalist who mentors Aly Arkadi at the Seven photo agency in New York. He raised questions about the political and legal impact those images could have.

SOUNDCLIP

This is potentially something that the U.S. Congress could take up and it could.. You know it's sort of related to the Leahy Amendment you know which is that if it's found partners and U.S. forces are committing crimes against humanity then we have to stop supporting them. Right. And gets into very tricky touchy geopolitical issues at a time where we have to fight. You know this fight has to happen sadly unfortunately and it could be a bit of a sticky wicket here.

AMT: Well from its battle against ISIS to how it treats its own citizens there are long held concerns about the Iraqi military. Belkis Wille is the senior Iraq researcher for the Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch and she's in Kiev Ukraine today. Hello.

BELKIS WILLE: Hi.

AMT: How serious are the violations that Ali Arkady caught with his land use?

BELKIS WILLE: I mean these are the greatest of abuses that you can see in the in the context of an armed conflict or even in peace time as you said. What he showed with his photo and video evidence are executions of individuals without having gone through any judicial process. Extreme acts of torture against these individuals in order to try and force confessions, or in some cases simply what looked like acts of revenge or retribution. But I think it is important to say that in Iraq among the government armed forces we have seen acts like this before many many times and it is very disappointing to see at this point in the battle against ISIS with this much support from the U.S. led coalition that armed forces on the ground are still perpetrating these kind of abuses.

AMT: Well We heard Ed Kashi mention potential congressional issues do you expect the U.S. Congress to get involved?

BELKIS WILLE: Well I think it's important to note that what he mentioned would charge the Leahy laws which would say as he said that if an armed force is said to have committed an abuse the U.S. cannot provide them with support. That is actually something that this particular unit has been penalized under. So this unit was not allowed to receive funding or support from the U.S. because it is already before these revelations came out alleged to have committed these kind of abuses. However the U.S. has gotten around these stringent laws by simply funneling that support through other countries. This particular unit gets its support from Italy. Italy can receive an item particularly military weapons and vehicles that they can funnel to this particular unit. And in fact all your Cuddy's photos and videos show this unit driving around in U.S. military vehicles and the U.S. government has refused to respond to how they got those vehicles.

AMT: I'm wondering how much appetite there is in the west right now to go after fighters who commit these crimes against suspected ISIS fighters?

BELKIS WILLE: Well unfortunately I think not a whole lot. If you look at for example right now the battle that we have in West Mosul which is really centered around West Mosul old city. This unit which is part of the Emergency Response Division as well as one other units also under the Ministry of Interior of Iraq is they are the two forces that are playing the lead in retaking the old city. And at a moment like that it is hard to see the coalition taking any significant measures to penalize them when they're really the forces that are being relied on to fight this you know street to street very difficult battle against ISIS. And it's it's within this context that I would say the battle against ISIS particularly, from what I've seen in Iraq invites a certain level of impunity where armed forces are able to say well but ISIS is so much more evil. They don't respect any of the laws of war. Therefore if a few abuses happened on our side it's kind of okay it's kind of acceptable. Because ISIS is so much worse and that that attitude is really pervasive at all levels of government that I've seen in Iraq.

AMT: And do you see that attitude extend to the general public as well and in the western world right now. I mean what kind of outrage are you seeing or not seeing?

BELKIS WILLE: I think you're absolutely right unfortunately even you know one sees this on on posts on Twitter on Facebook when an article like this goes up with this horrific evidence of abuse. A lot of the commentary that you'll see is well but ISIS is so evil these guys deserve to be killed these guys deserve to be tortured. And I think it's also something we see very much when it comes to the Iraqi public. And this battle was happening in Iraq especially people who lived under ISIS for two and a half years and suffered the most horrific forms of abuse under ISIS. They say well you know these guys deserve it. And unfortunately it's really that that attitude that persists and that allows this complete level of impunity. And fundamentally that attitude doesn't understand what we're dealing with and how we need to combat ISIS. ISIS was able to draw on supporters and pull in recruits because of impunity that was that was following abuses that were targeting Sunni Arab men in Iraq. And as long as we allow those abuses to continue we're never going to get rid of ISIS.

AMT: And so you at Human Rights Watch you document these kinds of things. How difficult is it to do your work right now?

BELKIS WILLE: Oh it's very difficult. And I mean after Ali’s these photos and videos came out there's been a real clamp down for human rights activists and for people researchers like us as, well journalists who are trying to get to the frontline. And armed forces are simply saying there's no access anymore because we don't want these people witnessing what we're doing. And that's unfortunately a real action that is condoned by the government. And I haven't seen the coalition playing a large role in pushing back and saying no actually it's incredibly important. Even more so after these revelations that there's full transparency around how this operation is being run.

AMT: Will Human Rights Watch launched its own investigation.

BELKIS WILLE: Yes you know we were contacted by idly by Seven and by journalists we're working on the story several months ago when he first came back with these photos. We've been working with him to try and substantiate as well as to try and get the backstories on some of these men that we've seen tortured and executed in his videos and will continue to be doing that work and pressing particularly. …I mean what comes next. Will there really be investigations and what we..

AMT: You're breaking up a little so before I let you go maybe just give us a sense of what's happening on the ground now in Mosul.

BELKIS WILLE: The battle is nearing the end. It's centered around the Old City and in West Mosul as I said this particular unit that was that was depicted as committing these abuses is playing a really lead role in that in that fight. And we see abuses happening on the ground not only by them and by the coalition in the form of airstrikes that are killing large numbers of civilians, but we also see ISIS at its worst. I mean we hear stories every day of hundreds of people being welded into basemen so that they can't flee of people being shot by snipers while they try and flee the city. So you've got just this incredibly large number of civilians that are trapped and being used as human shields and are falling victim to the ground and ground attacks and airstrikes.

AMT: The level of cruelty is unimaginable.

BELKIS WILLE: it really is and I have to say when I'm sort of standing close to west Mosul at is at these checkpoints where people were fleeing the city are coming through. The level of trauma that you're seeing among these families men women and children is something that I've never witnessed before and in my work in the Middle East.

AMT: Belkis Wille, thank you very much for talking to us today.

BELKIS WILLE: Thank you.

AMT: That is Belle Wille. She's The Senior Iraq Researcher for the Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch today she happens to be in Kiev Ukraine and that's where we reached her. Let us know what you think of what you've been hearing on the show today what she has said what her other guest has said you can find us on Twitter we are at the current CBC. Go to our website cbc.ca/the current and click on contact. That's our program for today stay with Radio 1 for Q. The Grammy award winning Jason “Poo Bear” Boyd co-wrote Justin Bieber's smash hit, Where are you now. And he's talking to Tom Power today about making a major hit as well as the ugly side of working with a mega star. Remember you can take the current with you to go on the CBC Radio app you can browse through PRAST episodes of our program you can start listening in seconds. Search for stories you missed want to hear again. Listen live to your local CBC station or from your smartphone or your tablet and it's free from the App Store or Google Play. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current .

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

June 5, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This