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The AIH Transcript for May 8, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: Wrung out. A Montreal resident awoke in the middle of the night to firefighters pounding on her door, urging her family to leave as the water gushed in. Now she's wondering when, or if, they'll be able to return.

JD: Free and uneasy. More than eighty schoolgirls kidnapped three years ago in Nigeria are no longer captives of Boko Haram but critics say the government is exploiting them for political gain.

CO: Future conditional tense. Emmanuel Macron is elected President of France – but his brand-new party has no seats in the National Assembly, meaning his ability to govern is not nearly a fait accompli.

JD: A dose of reality. To fight the opioid crisis, the Canadian Medical Association Journal publishes new guidelines that include smaller dosages. Our guest says we have to think bigger.

CO: Sheet happens. When his patio is littered with cigarette butts and spit, an Ontario condo owner takes action against his upstairs neighbours – publicly shaming them by spray-painting his complaints on a tarp for all to see.

JD: And...it might be sly commentary on our culture's distance from nature, or an organic homage to Duchamp's "readymades". But it isn't. It's a pineapple. So we'll find out how it ended up displayed as art in a Scottish gallery.
As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that figures: at least it's in good taste.

[Music]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Quebec floods: resident, France: 'En Marche', bad condo behaviour

Quebec floods

Guest: Camille Delpesche

JEFF DOUGLAS: Rain finally subsided in parts of Quebec today, but for many people and communities, the problems have only just begun. Quebec has pledged to donate half a million dollars to the Red Cross to help those affected by the flooding. Montreal and several other communities are in a state of emergency. And as of today, more than fifteen hundred people have been evacuated from their homes.
Camille Delpesche is one of those people. In the early hours of Sunday, she and her family were forced out their home in Ahuntsic-Cartierville. We reached Ms. Delpesche earlier today.

CAROL OFF: Camille, where are you staying with your family at this time?

CAMILLE DELPESCHE: Well we are staying at the Quality Hotel in Decarie, Boulevard Decarie.

CO: And who’s with you? Whose family you have with you?

CD: Just my husband and my two kids.

CO: Tell us how you came to be in the hotel. What happened to your home?

CD: Well actually the water came like around 3:30 in the morning and the fire the firemen came and they were pounding on the door and they told us that we might have to leave but we didn't realize that it was going to be so soon, like the water just keep rushing in and we had to just like really evacuate as soon as we could.

CO: Did you know the water was rising before you had the banging on the door?

CD: No because actually like three days before, there was a few fire trucks in front of my building and I saw that there was a problem with the water. But I thought maybe it was like a pipe that they were fixing, maybe popped or something. I didn't really know. No one ever told us that they were having a problem with the water.

CO: Were you asleep when they arrived at the door?

CD: Yes I was asleep when I heard the doorbell, but I thought maybe I was dreaming and then I put my head back down and then after, that's when I heard the pounding was so urgent. I couldn't imagine who it could be. When my husband went through the door like he was faced with the water.

CO: What do you mean faced with the water?

CD: Like the water was coming in the house from the front door into the kitchen. The water start coming through there seeping through there, but like everything just happened so fast like I just had to rush rush rush to get out.

CO: Wow. Are you sort of at sub level. Is it you have to go downstairs to get into your place?

CD: Yeah. It's a basement area. So it's like when you come to my house there is a driveway and it's pretty steep to go into the garage so that it's where the water fills up and settled and then it starts flowing into the front door.

CO: So you have two kids?

CD: Yes. They were asleep. I had to get them up and try to get them dressed then out of the house. The water start getting filled with water so my son started crying.

CO: How old are your kids?

CD: One’s four, one’s five.

CO: Oh my gosh. So it must have been really shocking for them to see that.

CD: Yes.

CO: Were you able to take anything with you for the kids?

CD: Well not at the first time when I was leaving. I only could have grabbed my documents which was already in a bag. And then I went to my mom and left the kids there and the kids were soaking wet. So I had to double back to go and get them some clothes. But when I went there the house was already filled with water and I had no shoes so I was, the water was really cold. I just had to like jump as fast as I could and grab whatever I could and just get back out of the house. Concerning their toys, they lost everything. I just bought new toys for them and they are asking me about it and I'm like you have to start over.

CO: What are the things that they're most upset about losing?

CD: Well my son he has a pillow that he had since he was like a year old. It's a comfort pillow he can't sleep without it. And he was asking me specifically for that and for his puppet show toys and stuff like that. I have to explain to them that the house was filled with water. We can't go back there.

CO: Were you surprised that you didn't get an earlier warning about this? There's been a number of complaints in Montreal about how slow things were to alert people or to prepare them, that they didn't feel that they were getting early enough warning. Did you think you should have been told a bit earlier than this?

CD: Yeah. Yeah when I thought about it I was thinking in the West Island area, the way how the waterfront is, it's all connected so all the water came flooding through to my side. So I think maybe somebody should have known or at least had some kind of idea that this could probably happen. And I know they can't prevent it. but at least give us a warning to say be careful.

CO: Especially people who live in sublevels or basement apartments like yours.

CD: Yeah. And we are very close to the waterfront so that's why we got hit so hard. So I'm pretty much sure that everything is gone.

CO: You’ve lost everything in the apartment. Does it look like you will be able to go back to that apartment?

CD: We can't go back there to live that’s for sure. But I think everything is gone. I'm just trying to think positive. I don't know what we're going to do. I really don't know.

CO: Camille, how are you holding up? How are you doing?

CD: I'm trying to cope because right now my husband is pretty sick. Last night, he had a really high fever and I'm trying to like not be too frustrated and just try to think positive.

CO: And I understand Camille that you're pregnant.

CD: Yes I am. It's different from when I was pregnant with my kids. I'm having different symptoms. I'm consistently hungry, I'm nauseous, I'm irritated I'm just everything. But there's not much I can do I have to be strong because I don't want my kids to see like you know I'm breaking down. And then they start worrying too much, because right now they're not really paying too much attention to what's happening because you know, at least we are in a comfortable place sleeping and they’re getting food. But at the same time I don't want him to see me stressed out too much and then they start feeling that stress.

CO: Boy you got, you’re carrying a lot.

CD: Well it is what it is. I can't run from it. I have to face it, you know?

CO: Well Camille, I hope you get support and you get help and I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

CD: You’re welcome.

CO: Take care.

CD: OK, bye.

JD: Camille Delpesche lives in Ahuntsic-Cartierville. She was evacuated from her home at 3 a.m. on Sunday because of the flooding. We reached her earlier today.
Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre has been criss-crossing the city, speaking to residents and borough mayors today. This morning, he spoke to Mike Finnerty, the host of CBC Montreal's Daybreak. He responded to criticism that the city's response time on the flooding could have been, well, better.

SOUNDCLIP

DENIS CODERRE: I can understand the frustration. We’ve done and by over 250,000 sandbags. People are working 24 hours a day. When people are exhausted of course and you know the firemen are working like crazy, the blue collars and everybody, and then with the support and the expertise and the equipment to with the armed force, we need to be fair.

MIKE FINNERTY: No doubt. But don’t [crosstalk]

DC: I have… I understand… my… Mike

MF: But… I understand… but Mayor Coderre, don’t you want to get I don't you want to get to the bottom of what's going wrong in the places where there are problems?

DC: Sorry Mike, I’m not having a fight with you today. Sorry Mike, I’m not having a debate with you today. What I'm focusing on the people. I'm there in support and that's the reason why I'm on the field all the time.

JD: Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre speaking to CBC Montreal's Daybreak this morning, with host Mike Finnerty. Nearby Rigaud is also in a state of emergency. And yesterday, the mayor of that municipality had some strong words for his constituents.
Mayor Hans Gruenwald Junior was responding to residents who had refused to leave their homes, even in the face of serious flooding.

SOUNDCLIP

HANS GRUENWALD: The fire department will be around to evacuate people. And if there is any resistance, the provincial police will actually remove the people if they need be.
We're going to be proactive and make sure that not another scenario happens which we had last night where people had to be evacuated and we put them in boats and they're crying like babies. I'm sorry. They're at a point where now they are not in a position to decide anymore their own future.
We are deciding that for them, to safely remove them and give them the services to support these people.

JD: Hans Gruenwald Junior, the Mayor of Rigaud, Quebec, speaking at a town hall meeting yesterday.

[Music]

Sally Yates

JD: He's gone – but not even close to forgotten. Today, the U.S. Senate's judiciary subcommittee continued to ask questions about President Trump's former national security advisor, Michael Flynn – and his ties to Russian officials. The senators are investigating Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. And today, Sally Yates – the former acting Attorney General – faced the subcommittee. She spoke publicly for the first time since being fired by President Trump in January.
For the record, here is Sally Yates earlier today at the Senate in Washington, D.C.

SOUNDCLIP

SALLY YATES: The Russians can use compromised material, sometimes overtly and sometimes subtly. Our concern was is that you have the national security adviser and you don't want that person to be in a position where again the Russians have leverage over him. But I will also say, we felt like the vice president was entitled to know that the information he had been given and that he was relaying to the American public was not true.

DIANNE FEINSTEIN: So what you're saying is General Flynn lied to the vice president.

SY: That's certainly how it appeared. Yes.

DF: OK. I appreciate that. December 29. This is the date that actually Senator Graham and I were with Senator McCain hearing about Russian interference. This is the date that the president expanded the sanctions against Russia. And this is the date that Michael Flynn reportedly talked to the Russians, perhaps several times, about sanctions. And one of the White House officials has described the notification that you provided warning them of this as a heads up. How would you describe a heads up?

SY: At the risk of trying to characterize it, I mean we were there to tell the White House about something we were very concerned about. So that they could take action.

DF: So it was much more formal than just a simple “Hey this is happening.” Michael Flynn did not resign his position as National Security Adviser until February 13th. That is 18 days after you went over there with the warning. And in particular, on January 28^th, Flynn was allowed to join President Trump on an hour long telephone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Do you have any doubt that the information that you conveyed to the White House on January 26 should have been made clear that Flynn had been potentially compromised by Russia?

SY: Well the purpose in our telling them again was so that they could act so I would hope that they did.

DF: If a high ranking national security official is caught on tape with a foreign official saying one thing in private, and then caught in public saying another thing to the vice president, is that material for blackmail?

SY: Certainly.

JD: For the record that was former acting U.S. Attorney General Sally Yates speaking earlier today to the Senate Judiciary subcommittee in Washington. That was an excerpt of an exchange with Senator Dianne Feinstein.
It was the first time Ms. Yates has spoken publicly since being fired by President Trump in January.

[Music]

France: en marche

Guest: Sophie McLoughlin

JD: After decisively beating out the far right candidate Marine Le Pen, Emmanuel Macron is now the President-elect of France.
But after supporters of centrism and the EU breathe a sigh of relief, they will likely be very quickly back to hyperventilating. Because yesterday's vote showed that the country is deeply divided. And Mr. Macron's new party, now named "Republique En Marche", doesn't hold a single seat in the National Assembly. Those elections will be held next month.
Sophie McLoughlin is a fundraiser for En Marche. We reached her in Paris, France.

CO: Ms. McLoughlin, first of all congratulations.

SOPHIE MCLOUGHLIN: Thank you.

CO: But as you know, pundits in France are saying that he's got an uphill battle. So what will Monsieur Macron have to do very quickly to show that he means business?

SM: Well right now the main reform he is going to put in place is moralizing political life. This was a main campaign promise. It's very important to us.

CO: What does that mean moralizing?

SM: Right now we have rules that force our politicians to see politics as a career, and for us politics can be a career it should be a mission. And what we think is that we should not have more than three consecutive terms.

CO: OK but now, so you have rules about who can run and how you want them to run, but right now you don't have anyone in the National Assembly. You're going to be starting from zero, aren't you?

SM: Well we have 577 deputies who are ready. We will be announcing their names this week. Half of them have never been elected before. So this is very new. There are people from civil society like you and I. We are going to train most of them and half also will be women.

CO: And we're talking about elections that will be held next month in June, and this is for the National Assembly, 577 seats up. But again, you are starting this… you just now have a name for your party Republic En Marche.

SM: No it's the same party, we just basically that the name has been enriched for the legislative elections.

CO: But without a parliamentary majority, what can the president actually do?

SM: It will be much more difficult for us to work with our program if we do not have a majority. But historically in France, the president always gets a majority.
Our issue is that some people voted for him Emmanuel Macron in order to block Marine Le Pen and the Front National party. So they didn't really vote for a program they just voted to block her. So this will be our difficulty.
But we are confident that we can do it. And again a year ago everyone said it had never been done. It was impossible to have a new face in French political life. So we have done something which is considered impossible a year ago and I'm confident that we can do it again in a month.

CO: And that's why I'm curious as do I use you are reverting to what has historically been the case, and what is the precedent because if you've tossed everything up in the air, which would certainly what En Marche has done as a movement, and clearly the electorate is looking for something very fresh, how can you depend on what's happened in the past to say what might happen in this election in June?

SM: I think, I think there's a there's a mix of both, but we all, we are offering an alternative and something very new and very fresh with these new deputies. Those are local elections. So these deputies are going to meet their constituents. Some of them already know their constituents because they've been in the neighborhood for a long time. So this is something that appeals to French people because they are tired of politicians, they don't trust them anymore. We want to put confidence and optimism, and even if it sounds corny kindness back into politics and to have people like them that can be elected and represent them at the assembly, is very new. It's a very new idea. And again everyone is saying it's never been done it can't be done. So we're hoping that we can do it again.

CO: All right well that sounds quite challenging and stimulating, but at the same time again, if you don't succeed that, I mean there are those who say that without a majority, he cannot govern. Monsieur Macron can do nothing. Alone he is nothing, it’s a dead election. What do you say to that?

SM: I believe that it's not quite, it won't be as bad. But again, we're optimistic and we're hoping we can manage. If we don't, Emmanuel has a very strong power to convince people. He's very good at it.

CO: Well no one can doubt that Mr. Macron has a lot of charisma. He couldn't have pulled this off otherwise. But as some have said, there's one quote here “People are not going to rally to him just because he has an extraordinary smile, young blood, and blue eyes. They're going to have to be some serious negotiations.” How is he going to do that?

SM: Well let me tell you that we would not have accomplished this only if he had a nice smile and if he were charismatic. This was very difficult. And he's not alone. We're now 270,000 behind him. I'm 39, I've never voted before. And we all want to renew political life. So what he's done. This was not sheer luck or charm, let me tell you. It was a lot of hard work and none of it was done randomly.

CO: You say you're 39 and you've never voted before and–

SM: Absolutely.

CO: How many more people like you got involved in this election?

SM: You know, a lot of politicians that came to our rallies were stunned because they said we've been going to meetings since we started politics and we know everyone in these meetings and these rallies, and at the En Marche rally, we do not know anyone. Why> Because the people who signed up in En Marche are people that have never voted before, or that have never been in a political party before. So we actually managed to get this very large part of the French population that does not vote because they don't trust anyone right or left.

CO: I hate to go back to the if part again, but if you don't get this majority, and there's a word that you have co-habitation, co-habitation meaning that you have to cohabit with a prime minister and a government from another party, well Monsieur Macron is from your party, do you think he can pull that off?

SM: I think if anyone can, he can. And again, there are many of us. We have many deputies from the Socialist Party that are joining us. And we do have deputies from the Republican Party who are joining us too. So I am hoping we will be able to talk together. This is the beginning of a new era. We, basically the left and the right have imploded. So this is a new start.

CO: Very interesting. Alright. We will be watching Ms. McLoughlin.

SM: Yes, well we're all working very hard and getting back to work today was a day off, but we're getting back to work tomorrow to start preparing the legislative and we know that we have a very big responsibility for the next five years because Marine Le Pen has had a very big score which is very serious to us. And what we want to do now is make sure that it doesn't happen again in five years.

CO: The world is watching.

SM: Yes we know.

CO: Thank you.

SM: You're very welcome.

JD: Sophie McLoughlin is a fundraiser with En Marche, that is the political movement led by French President-elect Emmanuel Macron. We reached Ms. McLoughlin in Paris.

[Music]

Bad Condo Behaviour

Guest: Wayne Russell

JD: About a year-and-a-half ago, Wayne Russell and his wife moved into a condo building in Richmond Hill, Ontario. They were downsizing, in order to live a carefree, a more relaxing life.
Instead, Mr. Russell says they've been living in hell because of their upstairs neighbours. He's so fed up that he's since taken matters into his own hands. He says he's being forced to shame them. We reached Wayne Russell in Richmond Hill, Ontario.

CO: Wayne, tell us what you decided to do yesterday in order to shame your neighbors?

WAYNE RUSSELL: Well after a year and a half of frustration without getting any help from property management and the security at the building, I went and grabbed a tarp from Home Depot and a can of paint and I just painted a big banner sign, that's 12 by 10 in size and I tied it across my patio and I wrote on it a big message to my neighbors to be a good neighbor and stop spitting and tossing cigarette butts from above down on my patio.

CO: So your sign says “Be a good neighbor…”

WR: Yeah, be a good neighbor. Please stop spitting and tossing cigarette butts. Our condo fees will go up because of you.

CO: How does that happen to you?

WR: Daily. Every day. If I kept every cigarette butt that that had landed on my patio I could fill up a garbage can. It's just ridiculous.

CO: And the spitting?

WR: And the spitting is, and it's got to be a smoker’s spit, but the spitting has always been the alarm at the same time the same rate. It's just disgusting. We can't use our patio. We've got nice patio furniture that we don't want to put out because we did have it out and it got burned and so OK, we put it away, now we can't use it. The property management firm doesn't, they seem to be powerless. They're not creative thinkers or whatever they just don't, you know “Sorry we can't do anything.”

CO: I understand your wife actually got hit.

WR: Well actually, she was sitting on the couch and she heard something whack the patio. She goes out there and there's a coffee cup full of cigarette butts and she looks up and there's three guys up there on the 13th floor looking down at her, chuckling and laughing and she says “Hey guys, what do you doing throwing this stuff down on here?” “No we didn't do it. We didn't do it.” And one of the guys spat on her. Just spat down. And you know, it didn't hit her but the spat at her from above. Just thinking it's fun. Just young rebel teenagers or whatever but just people that don't care and think that's a joke.

CO: But if that's the case then that would indicate that they're aware what they're doing. It's not like you can shame them with a note saying “be a good neighbor”, maybe they didn't know what they're doing there. It seems that they're more aware of what's going on.

WR: There’s more than one culprit. There's a lot of smokers that are respectful and they butt their cigarettes on the patio but there are a few that, maybe aren't aware that they just toss them and then there are those rebel types that think it's a joke. You know, we've been fighting this alone since yesterday I found out half a dozen other people in our building are suffering the same kind of fate. And so now, we're you know we've got a voice that's a lot louder than it was 48 hours ago. So I just want to keep on cranking this up until something gets done about it.

CO: You have a voice. Is the law on your side? Do you have anything you can turn to?

WR: Well the next thing would be like an assault charge or something. Because it is an assault when someone spits on somebody. But again, the burden of proof is going to be on me. But I'm willing to do whatever it takes and if I have to monitor the building 24 hours a day with my own personal video equipment, I will.

CO: How has it come to this, that you are actually contemplating trying to videotape 24/7 your building to try and catch the culprit who’s spitting and showering butts on your patio and on your wife.

WR: Well we moved in here about a year and a half ago when the building was brand new still. So right from Day One it started, so we talked to [unintelligible], people throwing cigarette butts on the patio and spitting. And they say OK we'll bring it up with the condo corporation board. The condo corporation board now says, OK well you know what can we do to? They talk to their lawyers. The lawyers say “be very careful. You know you can't videotape the building because your invasion of privacy.” And I'm not willing to accept that. So I got went and got my own video equipment I put it out there in different places around the building to film these guys and actually catch them, and I’d give that video to the property manager firm, and you know they’d finally send a letter to the actual individuals that are doing this.And you know it's stops for a week or two, and then a week or two later it starts up again. And it's just going around in circles.

CO: How has the property management corporation, how has it responded to your sign?

WR: Well this is really what's insulting now. I'm being victimized twice because, as of this morning, we got calls from the party management form pretty much demanding we take the sign down now. And I said, “Well no, I'm at work. I'm not going to take it down now. I'll take it down tomorrow.” And they said “Well we're concerned about your side we do damage to the rails it's tied off.”And that's exactly what I did. I laughed. I said “How can you say that to me with a straight face? You're concerned about some nylon rope tied around a steel barrier that's designed to stop people from falling over the balcony is going to damage by a piece of rope? And I just about hung up on them.” The language I wanted to use was not me so I just–

CO: No I can imagine it, but you know, what you're saying this is not a great endorsement for a condo living. Anyone who is thinking of downsizing and doing that number, you’re not exactly a poster boy for that right now.

WR: Unless you buy a penthouse. We had a choice. Do we want the penthouse or do we want the penthouse or the ground floor? We took the ground floor because my wife wanted to be an example of a bigger patio blah blah blah. And it was the biggest mistake we ever made.

CO: This is a cautionary tale. Wayne it’s good to talk to you. Thank you.

WR: Thank you too.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: That was Wayne Russell. We reached him in Richmond Hill Ontario and we heard from Mr. Russell after that interview. Turns out the sign has since been taken down. We did try to contact the property manager of Mr. Russell's building. She could not be reached for comment. And there is more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

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Part 2: Chibok girls, pineapple art

Chibok girls

Guest: Osai Ojigho

JEFF DOUGLAS: For many families of the 82 recently freed Chibok school girls in Nigeria, freedom is coming too slowly. The girls were freed on the weekend, more than three years after being kidnapped by the militant group Boko Haram. But they haven't been allowed to go home, not to their families. The girls are being paraded by the Nigerian government and some would, some critics are saying exploit it.
Osai Ojigho is a Nigerian human-rights lawyer, and the country director for Amnesty International. We reached Ms. Ojigho in Abuja.

CAROL OFF: Ms. Ojigho, have you or anyone you know been able to verify independently how these girls are doing?

OSAI OJIGHO: No not at the moment. We've made attempts and we’ve requested for access to the girls or at least being in a room where the girls are being held.

CO: Well who is getting access to them?

OO: Right now we don't know. I don't think anyone outside of the government, and even within the government is quite restricted to those from the presidency and whoever they've chosen to work with.

CO: So these schoolgirls have been through hell and they're now released. And why is the government keeping them under wraps? Why are they controlling who gets to see them?

OO: I think for many reasons. One is there such a global outcry when these girls were picked up. And so the government is very keen to make sure they don't make the mistakes they made the last time so that they can control the information as well as help to project the government as doing something positively to find the girls and secure their release.
And I think another reason is some sort of security check. In the recent times Boko Haram has been known to use female bombers and in cases of indoctrination in some of the camps. So it might be to check to ensure that the girls they have, they haven't granted anyone to infiltrate the security agencies or to get information out in order to succeed in the insurgency fights.

CO: What do you make of these photo ops that went on through the weekend with the Nigerian president Buhari, with all the girls being displayed. Well they’re no, women, aren’t they, young women. And they’re all with their new dresses and headscarves sitting in chairs looking very uncomfortable if not terrified. And it seems to be a photo opportunity or it is a photo opportunity. What's the point of that?

OO: So any opportunity to showcase their successes is looked forward to. And it is also important to show that they are a caring government. And so to receive these girls and they showed they are well looked after actually helps to boost the campaign. The government has been saying in terms of their fighting against Boko Haram and ensuring the safe return of the girls. And also culturally, it shows like a father figure.

CO: And President Buhari, his statement that he made, he described the release of the girls as quote a pleasant second anniversary gift to the people of Nigeria, referring to the second anniversary of his presidency. So he wants to closely associate himself with this release, doesn't he?

OO: Yes definitely.

CO: How are the families of these girls responding? I mean they're trying to get to see their girls and get them to take them home. What are they saying about this?

OO: Well so far, our own sources on the ground have said that they haven't yet been contacted by the government or anyone else. They also received news media like everyone else, but few of the families who have access to the media or to other civil society groups are actually requesting full access to see the girls and verify for themselves. As we speak, I'm not sure if anyone has been granted that access yet.

CO: And so what do you make of that? What's your view of them not getting access to their parents and girls not being able to go home?

OO: It's all about missing the point in terms of the human connection and recognizing the traumatic experience these girls and their families have gone through in the last years because if you're a mother waiting for three years to see your daughter and you would expect that you would be the first person to get the news. We found your daughter and we're arranging transport for you to come to Abuja to meet with her.
You would really want to be one of the first that is at the scene or is actually waiting even to receive the girls yourselves.

CO: Of the 276 students who were kidnapped by the Boko Haram, there’s 163 have been released. Some of them were released some time ago and are still being held by the government. And so there are groups like Bring Back Our Girls trying to get the government to release these young women and get them home to their families. Why? What do you think they can do? What how is it possible to actually get the government to release these young women?

OO: I think it’s constantly by putting it in the news because that is how we even got to Bring Back Our Girls campaign. And the focus on the Chibok girls and the media. Because 21 girls were actually released last year sometime around October and they're still in a facility unknown in Abuja and being monitored by the security forces. And we didn't even realize that they were still being held in such closed facilities until when these new girls were released. And so I think it's about putting the pressure on the government in terms of this cannot be happening and seeking clear timelines. Because even if you are assessing and questioning these girls, we need to know when this would end and when they will be given to the families. They cannot be held indefinitely.

CO: It sounds like they have been re-kidnapped.

OO: It sounds like they have been re-kidnapped. “Kidnapped” is a strong word but it's more like being held against their will, detained, and which we also view very strongly as Amnesty because we believe that you have a right to liberty as well.

CO: Well they’re the victims aren’t they? They are the victims and they're being detained.

OO: Exactly. We have a situation where nobody knows where they are. So that is extremely worrying. And we don't know what facilities they’ve been given, how they are being looked after. At least it would have been good to have an independence, outside of government bodies like the UN, the WHO, or UNICEF, to actually say yes they've seen these girls and they know the conditions in which they're being kept.

CO: The parents must be going crazy.

OO: Yes, I know I’d be going crazy, just waiting.

CO: Ojigho, I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

OO: Thank you too.

CO: Bye.

JD: Osai Ojigho is a Nigerian human-rights lawyer and the country director for Amnesty International. We reached her in Abuja.

[Music]

Emma Watson MTV Award

SOUNDCLIP

ASIA KATE DILLON: And the winner is, Emma Watson, Beauty and the Beast.

JD: Actor Emma Watson being honoured for her turn as "Belle", in Disney's live-action Beauty and the Beast last night at the MTV Movie and Television Awards.
Ms. Watson's win was a first in MTV's "Best Actor" category, not just for her but for the category itself. This year marks the first time it featured both male and female nominees, reflecting MTV’s decision to disregard gender in its acting categories.
Incidentally, Asia Kate Dillon, who presented the award to Ms. Watson, both identifies as non-binary in live and plays a non-binary character in the Billions television series. You can hear our interview with Ms. Dillon on our website, at cbc.ca/aih. Now, here's some of what Emma Watson had to say in accepting the honour last night.

SOUNDCLIP

EMMA WATSON: Firstly, I feel I have to say something about the award itself. The first acting award in history that doesn't separate nominees based on their sex says something about how we perceive the human experience.
MTV’s move to create a genderless award for acting will means something different to everyone. But to me it indicates that acting is about the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes. And that doesn't need to be separated into two different categories. [Sound: applause]
Empathy. And the ability to use your imagination should have no limits. This is very meaningful to me. Both to be winning the award, and to be receiving it from you, Asia.
Thank you for educating me in such an inclusive, patient, and loving way. Thank you so much.

[Sound: Applause]

JD: Actor Emma Watson accepting the Best Actor Award at the MTV Movie and TV Awards last night. The first time the category has not discriminated on the basis of gender.

[Music]

Pineapple art

Guest: Lloyd Jack

JD: The pinnacle of modern art. Or should I say… the pineapple.
Students in Aberdeen, Scotland just wanted to play a prank on their friend, but that prank was mistaken for art. Lloyd Jack is one of those students. We reached him in Aberdeen.

CO: Lloyd, how did you come up with the idea for this prank?

LLOYD JACK: Well the idea for this prank came around on the day we find out that one of our friends was allergic to pineapples, so we decided to buy this person a pineapple. And he did not take the joke as funny as we thought it was. So we were a little bit stuck with this pineapple and thought we looked a little bit strange walking around with it.

CO: How did you decide that it might work as a piece of art?

LJ: Well as we were walking past with it, we just didn't know what to do with it. So then we saw an art festival. So we saw an opportunity. There was an art festival that was almost in its way of being packed up. It was coming to an end. So there was an empty display, I suppose, on a shelf and nothing on it. So as we're walking by, we thought what an idea, let's put a pineapple on the display. So quickly he just placed the pineapple on the display and we walked away. And in our heads we just tried to wonder how long it would stay there for before someone took it?

CO: And when you when did you go back to take a look to see if it was still there?

LJ: I think the next day we went back it was still there. We couldn't believe that no one had taken it. And then I think after the weekend, we walked back into university, walked down the corner and saw it be placed in a glass display case and we could not believe it. I think it was the funniest thing I think we've ever seen. And we just literally couldn't believe it.

CO: OK so he went back into the gallery, and so the pineapple is still on this display table, this art display table, and now it was in a glass case.

LJ: Yes. Specifically they’d taken a case somewhere from I don't know where, because it wasn't there before, and then moved this pineapple and placed it in the exact same position it was that we placed it, under a piece of glass so that nobody could touch it.

CO: So the funniest thing you’d ever seen. How did you react? What did you and your friends do?

LJ: Firstly we was just, I think laughed for 10 minutes because we were, we just couldn't believe what we're seeing. And then initially we sat opposite the pineapple for a good 10 minutes watching fellow students walking past and just looking at this pineapple and you could see how confused they were. Some were laughing, some just didn't understand it. Some were trying to work out how it was art and we were just trying to not scare them away with our laughter.

CO: I mean what was the exhibit about? How could this pineapple have fit into what the museum was showing?

LJ: I hope it did not. It did fit at all with anything. I think there was mechanical exhibits next to it that were different. I think if you've seen boats and things that were just completely different all around it. It was so out of place. That's why it's even more unbelievable that people thought this was meant to be this.

CO: This was at what point did you tell anybody that this what you had done.

LJ: First we just told all of our friends. But then, maybe an odd person that walked past, but we didn't tell anyone from university because we just wanted to see how long it could last. Basically our dreams that had come true accidentally. That was the best thing that could have happened.

CO: So how long did it stay there?

LJ: I was there for at least I think two more days at least after it was put in the case with people walking past. And I think the only reason it was taken away was because the exhibit had finished I suppose and everything else was getting cleared away.
Actually, at one point, I think this was two days after, the other the exhibits were taken away but the pineapple was still there in this case, probably because nobody knew what to do with it because nobody knew where it came from.

CO: All right so I presumed the people at the at the festival, at the exhibit know what happened now. Right?

LJ: Right. They know now I think one of them actually replied to my tweet.

CO: You tweeted it?

LJ: I did tweet it. It went viral as well. I said we just placed a pineapple on an empty display case or sorry an empty shelf on our university. And then we came back and it's in this display case. I had a picture because I am on my snapshot picture of the pineapple as we placed, just with the pineapple on its own with a caption saying “I made art.” And the next day when the case was made, I take another picture. So I put those pictures up on Twitter. So everyone couldn't believe it either, before and after.

CO: What has the university and the museum said about your prank?

LJ: I think they've taken it quite well especially the Look Again Festival seem to be looking light-heartedly at it because the festival's description that I looked up after is about innovation and creativity. So it totally almost blended in well, which could have been another reason why people thought this was art.

CO: So in all respects, you got away with this.

LJ: In all respects we've completely got away with it. And we love that it happened.

CO: And now you're studying for a business degree. Do you think you've missed your calling? Maybe you should be in the art department?

LJ: Oh I completely think this, 100 percent on. To be honest I'm just waiting for my honorary art degree now, for us both, because I think we deserve it after becoming going from not an artist, to an official artist with exhibits in three days. I think it's quite well done if I may say so myself.

CO: Lloyd, it’s great to talk to you. Thank you.

LJ: You too. Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

JD: Lloyd Jack is a business student at Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen and that's where we reached him.

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Part 3: Sex offender funding, opioid guidelines

Healthcare town hall

JD: Congressman Tom Reed had a good news message for his constituents. One that he first delivered Thursday, after the American Health Care Act, or AHCA, bill passed in the House. The Congressmen Reed’s initial statement read in part, quote: "Today is a great victory for the American people. We are finally on the path to fixing our broke and broken health care system." Unquote.
But when he came home to New York's 23rd congressional district to deliver that message in person, in a series of town halls, he found many of his constituents weren't buying what he was selling. Many came armed with signs bearing slogans like "Keep Your Profits Off My Healthcare", and "Why Do You Want to Kill My Daughter?"
And then there was the exchange with this woman at the Fire Hall in Ovid, who identified herself as a U.S. Air Force veteran.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Clapping, woman screaming]

VETERAN: It has saved my life four times. There is no profit in single payer. And that is why [unintelligible] Property tax release. These are human beings. We have bodies, we have lives. We are not property taxes. That’s how you boil it down. We are not money, we are a nation.

[Sound: Applause]

TOM REED: [unintelligible] Your government can take care of this for all of us–

VETERAN: The government doesn’t take of me, they just do the booking [unintelligible]. The insurers [unintelligible] for a profit on your back and your back and your back.

VOICE: That’s right.

VETERAN: [unintelligible] on mine. My behalf. I’m a veteran. Everyone here deserves single payer healthcare now.

[Sound: Applause]

JD: That was part of an exchange between a woman identifying herself as a U.S. Air Force veteran and Republican Congressman Tom Reed, at a town hall in Ovid, on Saturday. The congressman met with several of his constituents in upstate New York over the weekend, in an effort to win support for the passing of the American Health Care Act.

[Music]

Sex offender funding

Guest: David Byrne

JD: It is a Canadian initiative that has been adopted around the world.
It's called CoSA, that’s an acronym for Centres of Support and Accountability. And it aims to reintegrate sex offenders back into society. And now, the federal government has announced seven-point-four-eight-million in funding for the program. That is funding that had been slashed under the previous Conservative government.
David Byrne is the project coordinator for CoSA. We reached him in Oshawa, Ontario.

CO: Mr. Byrne, what difference will this program money mean for sex offenders coming out of Canadian prisons?

DAVID BYRNE: So right now, when a sex offender is released it warrant expiry date, so that's the end of their natural sentence, there's really no services available for them in Canada. Now from 1994 through 2014, there have been circles of support and accountability sites operating in 14 or 15 communities across the country. But after funding ended, a lot of the sites either diminish their services or even shut down entirely. So this funding means that across the country, we are able again to offer this fantastic program which means that there are people waiting for, to support and to hold accountable, these people, once they've left jail and come back to the community.

CO: And what is it that you do with and for these people?

DB: So what we do is we organize groups of three to five volunteers very specially trained to offer support, which means, you know, to meet with, spend time with, to help find housing, you know to help find food and these sorts of things. Sex offenders after the end of their sentences in the institution but also to hold them accountable and then through that supportive relationship that we build over time, we're also able to guide them when they might be setting a kind of out of line.

CO: And what's the range of crimes that we're talking about here?

DB: It's a really broad range. Often the program is associated with work with pedophilic sex offenders but we work with everybody from people who were found guilty of domestic abuse crimes to people whose crimes only have occurred on the Internet so there's no actual physical contact with victims, and everything in between.

CO: Why was your program funding cut in 2014?

DB: So really two things happen. One a fairly robust package with Public Safety Canada just sunset. It was a five year project base source of funding. It was due to end in 2014. So when it did even though we had expected because you know that the idea was that if we were able to achieve the type of success that we indicated that we could, we thought that we would have, you know, a permanent budget line somewhere in in in federal dollars. But that wasn't the case at the time. Also we were receiving another funding package with the correction service of Canada, and they at that time, or around that time, deemed that our client base really didn't meet their mandate, because their mandate is to work with people before warrant expiry date. So at the end of that natural sentence that, those people are really supposed to graduate out of the correction system and most of our clients are people who have graduated.

CO: Was there any part of it that the government did not want to be perceived as to giving money to sex offenders?

DB: You know, I don't really know what the internal conversation was like, but at that time we were told that we really didn't line up with the federal priorities. And of course if you remember at that time I was really at the height of the tough on crime agenda.

CO: What evidence did you present to the Liberal government that got your funding back?

DB: No I think what was really helpful is when the Liberal government came in and Minister Goodale took the portfolio of public safety. He was already very familiar with the programs. We were also able to show them two studies done in Canada over the last 15 years, that both showed this fairly significant reduction in recidivism rates with criminals, with offenders who are really the most concern for Canadians citizens.

CO: What do you say to people who supported the conservatives tough on crime agenda and don't think that you should they should be spending their taxpayers money on pedophiles and rapists?

DB: I'm very sympathetic, and I'm a parent too and I have the same type of concerns about the presence in our community. But at the same time I have to say these people are getting out of jail whether or not we like it. And we have to ask ourselves if this person is going to come out, whether or not we like it, and they may be our next door neighbour, what are we going to do about it?
Now if you think about it, really that risk, the risk that they pose to the community to offend again, is increased if we do nothing, if we don't engage with them. But if there are a group of people who are willing to spend time with these people, get to know these ex-offenders very very very well, learn what it means to support them but also to hold them accountable, and the statistical evidence is there to show that this is an incredibly impactful program, I just can't see how this doesn't become a priority for Canadians.

CO: And what's the success rate of the program?

DB: So between 74 and 90 percent and that's over five different studies that get done here in Canada, one in the U.K. and two in the U.S.

CO: 74 and 90 percent what?

DB: Reduction in recidivism.

CO: And you have to stay with them for the rest of time. I mean do they is there some point when you feel you've they've completed the program and they can go off on their own and they won't…

DB: This is one of the questions that we're hoping to answer. In my general experience working in the field now since 2009, and is the broad experience of people that have been doing work for much longer, a lot of these circles because these people are still stigmatized and isolated, a lot of these circles are for life.
I have clients, I operate the local site in Peterborough Ontario, and I have clients that have been meeting once a week with their circle for 12 or 13 years. And that's very impressive, both the fact that the volunteers have committed themselves for that amount of time, but also that these ex-offenders are recognizing that they need that support. That that support is the difference between them offending and not.

CO: Alright, well I appreciate you speaking with us Mr. Byrne.

DB: Thanks very much.

CO: Bye-bye.

DB: Bye.

JD: David Byrne is the project coordinator for Centres of Support and Accountability. We reached him in Oshawa, Ontario.

[Music]

Dateline: vegan Swiss passport

JD: Dateline: Gipf-Oberfrick, Switzerland.

[Music]

JD: Too much noise.
On that point, Nancy Holten and many of the residents of the Swiss village where she lives seemed to agree. Except that Ms. Holten pointed to bells on churches and cows as the source of the noise problem. Locals, on the other hand, have quite another beef, namely, with Ms. Holten herself. And more precisely, in the words of one politician, with Ms. Holten’s, quote, "big mouth".
You see, Ms. Holten is a vegan, and an outspoken advocate for animal rights. For the past few years, she has actively campaigned against activities like hunting and piglet racing. But also, against loud church bells – and particularly the ubiquitous Swiss cow bells, which traditionally hang around the necks of cattle to help farmers keep track of them. These sounds, Ms. Holten claims, are harmful to the cows' ears, and hence, detrimental to their quality of life.
Needless to say, her public protests against bells did not win her any friends, at least not among human friends. In fact, her actions prompted the local council to twice deny citizenship to Ms. Holten, who is by birth, Dutch.
You see, in Switzerland, municipal committees enjoy a say in who and who cannot hold citizenship. And even though Ms. Holten has lived in the country since she was eight years old, and met all the legal requirements, the council rejected her application for a passport back in January, after deeming her too annoying, and an affront to local customs.
It does look as though Ms. Holten has won her battle, if not for the cattle, at least for herself. After hearing her case, authorities of the canton of Aargau, the region encompassing Gipf-Oberfrick, have overruled the local ruling, and granted Ms. Holten citizenship.
So it seems Ms. Holten isn't going anywhere fast – leaving her fellow villagers with plenty to stew over, long after the cows come home.

[Music]

Opoid guidelines

Guest: Andrea Furlan

JD: Canadians are the second-highest users of opioids in the world, after Austria. But guidelines published in today's Canadian Medical Association Journal are intended to change that. The new guidelines cut the maximum daily recommended dose by more than half. From 200 miligrams a day to 90.
Dr. Andrea Furlan is a physiatrist and researcher at the University Health Network in Toronto. She reviewed the guidelines for the journal, and published a critique. She says doctors need options other than the prescription pad. We reached Dr. Furlan in Toronto.

CO: Dr. Furlan the Canadian Medical Association wants doctors to do things differently. They have a big problem on their hands with opioids. What are the changes that they are suggesting?

ANDREA FURLAN: The new opioid guideline that was released today is suggesting that opioids should not be the first line treatment for chronic pain. The guidelines also suggest that for people who are already receiving opioids for chronic pain, there should be an attempt to lower the dose. We call this opioid tapering.

CO: Tapering.

AF: Yes.

CO: Why do they need to be changed? Why have they revised these guidelines for opioids?

AF: Yeah the guidelines for opioids are first time, they were released in 2010. And this is a revision seven years after. The main reason is because, in the last seven 10 years, there has been new evidence that being published, especially from Canada and especially from Ontario, showing that higher doses of opioids are more harmful than beneficial, and the harms can be in terms of causing more pain also causing more deaths, and leading to more addiction.

CO: So why are you suggesting that maybe these aren't as effective as the CMA would like to think?

AF: Yeah. So I think that just having the guideline, like a document telling doctors what to do is necessary because we need this kind of guidance. But I think we need much more than that. We need what we are calling is for a national pain strategy which is we need options to treat people with chronic pain. Because if we only have a prescription patch, and if only opioids are covered by the drug benefits, this is what the physicians will continue doing, prescribing the opioids. So we need other alternatives to treat chronic pain, and because chronic B is a bio psychosocial condition we need bio psychosocial solutions.

CO: What do you mean by a national pain strategy?

AF: We need to have alternatives for people to receive treatments in every single place where people with chronic pain live and work. So chronic pain affects 20 percent of the population. So that's one in five Canadians and they may live in rural, remote under-served areas. So we need solutions for them. For example, if the only solution we have is drugs, they are going to use the drugs, the medications. But we need things like the places where they can exercise, places where they can learn how to do their meditation, where they can do their relaxation, they can receive psychotherapy for anxiety, for depression, for sleep problems. We need to help them to return to work because many of these people are disabled and they are not productive.
They may also need other medications that are not opioids such as anti-convulsants, anti-depressant medications. But if these medications are usually not covered by the formularies, by the drug benefits, they're going to continue receiving opioids because that's the easy prescription.That's the easy way for doctors to treat patients with chronic pain.

CO: At the same time with the Canadian Medical Association is trying to do is to reduce the problems that are coming with people taking so many opioids, becoming addicted to them, deaths from them. And they're not suggesting any of this. They're saying we need to taper as you say we need to reduce the prescriptions, the numbers of them and even the quantities. So if they don't do anything else, you don't have this national pain strategy you’ve described, how effective are these guidelines?

AF: Yeah we hope that they will be effective because a lot of people are receiving high doses of opioids and probably unnecessary. And we, if we dedicated doctors and if we teach the prescribers how to reduce the dose, majority of people who are receiving high doses of opioids, when you reduce when you taper the dose, they feel better because they have less side effects, less constipation, less drowsiness, they are less sleepy, so they can concentrate better. They can even be a tension better to what we are teaching them and advocating them.

CO: So they need to have something right? You're suggesting that they shouldn't they should be careful not to take these drugs away from too many people.

AF: Yes. In days just now I received an e-mail from our college and our College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario saying that you know it's important that physicians don't stop prescribing abruptly, that they don't do with this sudden cessation of opioids because it's very dangerous. The person will feel horrible, they will have a lot of withdrawal symptoms and they may end up willing to buy from illicit sources. So the recommendation is not to do this cessation abruptly.

CO: But if it's not successful, there's a very good chance that people will seek street level opioids without much control over even the dosages right?

AF: Yes. And the guideline recognizes that are exceptions, and that some people will not be able to taper. And so this people, they recommend that they are sent to a multidisciplinary pain clinic, but they recognize that this multidisciplinary programs don't exist everywhere. The thing is, if someone is on a high dose, and they try to taper, and it's really hard, they can’t stay on a high dose, but being monitored so they are not at a high risk of dying or being addicted to this medication.

CO: Alright. It sounds like a lot needs to be done, Dr. Furlan and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AF: Thank you.

JD: Dr. Andrea Furlan is a physiatrist and researcher at the University Health Network. We reached her in Toronto.

[Music]

Quote/Unquote: Hot fingers

JD: And now, Quote/Unquote.

[Music]

JD: Nicky White's moment of epiphany was at hand. Well, at fingers. Mr. White is a professor of Geophysics, Geodynamics, and Tectonics at the University of Cambridge. One day, he was reflecting on the enormous blob of hot rock that's underneath Iceland.
It's called a "mantle plume": a sort of conduit that channels hot rock up from the way down inside the Earth. When that hot rock hits the surface, it can form islands. And what Mr. White found weird about Iceland's mantle plume was its outline. It's not circular, which is apparently the usual shape. Iceland’s plume is kind of a giant oval with curved protuberances. Like flower petals. Or fingers.
Then, Mr. White suddenly remembered the fluid experiments of some of his Cambridge colleagues. They had shown that, when you spritz a thin fluid into a thicker fluid between two solid plates, they form that kind of irregular shape. And Eureka, he had it: that is why Iceland's giant mantle plume was that lumpy shape. Because the hot rock was squirting between two enormous layers of solid rock.
And that also explains how Scotland and parts of Norway are above sea level. The hot rock must really shoot powerfully between the layers of rock, because the mantle plume's "fingers" spread all that way to support parts of those countries. As Mr. White puts it, in a way that sounds either creepy or erotic, or erotically creepy or creepily erotic, quote:
"Something else must be going on to explain why they're not under water. And that something else is a hot fingers."

Arcade claw machines

JD: Easy...easy. Okay, I got the plush duck. Come on, ducky. I'm gonna snuggle you so much! Here you come, almost there, here you – aw COME ON.
That was a dramatic re-enactment of every one of my experiences with a claw machine. And probably yours. Seems like no matter how exquisite your control, the stupid claw never gets the stupid duck into the stupid chute. It just lets go at the last minute, and you're out a dollar, and you're left duckless and weeping in the bowling alley.
It's almost like there's no way to win. Almost exactly like that – as we learned from NBC's Today Show last July, in an in-depth report by Jeff Rossen.

SOUNDCLIP

JEFF ROSSEN: It feels like you just can't win. So is it you? Or is the machine rigged? And the answer is…

JEREMY HAMBLY: Yes, most claw machines are rigged.

JR: Jeremy Hambly has analyzed hundreds of claw machines and runs ClawStruck, a popular YouTube channel and website showing how many different models work.

JH: Absolutely not fair. Crane operators can change the strength of a clock throughout the day. They can even set them to pay out at different rates. One in 25, one in fifty, which means you will not win unless they say so.

JD: You heard it from the guy who knows altogether too much about claw machines. They're rigged. Well that report hit the amusement machine association or am a hard the AAMA hard. The AAMA’s mission, and I quote is “to preserve protect and promote the coin operated entertainment industry.” And now after what it calls quote three years of due diligence, it has issued what it calls the Fair Play Pledge, a contract the press release says, every AAMA member must sign to guarantee that any game they sell or operate in the United States will give the player a fair chance of winning.
The pledge has three elements. To paraphrase, first a player must be able to win using skill, and be given enough time to react to the behavior of the game. Second, a player must be able to improve with practice. And third what the player does must actually affect what the game does.
The American Amusement Machine Association emphasizes we want to emphasize that we are not in the business of rigging our games.
Well good. Now please expand the pledge to Canada or just send me a plush duckie.
Not that long ago we spoke to a man whose son had realized he didn't even have an outside chance of defeating the claw machine at a play center.
Not that long ago, we spoke to a man whose son had realized he didn't even have an outside chance at defeating the claw machine at a play centre in Nenagh, Ireland. So three-year-old Jamie Murphy decided to go inside. Here's Carol speaking with Jamie's father, Damien, back in March.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Damien, can you describe where you were at the moment you realized your son had kind of wandered out of sight?

DAMIEN MURPHY: I was having a snack with my other son Shane. We were all having a snack together at a table in the play center, and Jamie just got up as he always does or made his way over to the amusements. There's two little amusements in the play center and he has no problem with them any other day he’s been there. And then I heard, within about 10 seconds of him just leaving my sight to the left, I heard a muffled complaint, looked up and he was behind the glass of the machine.

CO: Describe what this machine is, this amusement.

DM: You see them everywhere actually. It's just a simple, it's like a glass box filled with plush toys, sort of teddy bears or a little minions teddy bear or something like that. Whatever is trending at the time and that you operate a little claw, and the claw goes over and you try and pick up the toy and drop it into the chute and then you just reach your hand into a flap and you can retrieve the toy that you've won. So he made his way in through that flop and made his way up the chute.

CO: So when you finally saw him, what was he doing?

DM: Well he was calling to me because he realized he got himself into a spot of bother. When I got up from the table I just said out loud “Of course you're in there” because yeah I could talk about Jamie all day. He's crazy, he's a very active little guy. So I just went over to him and he was a bit worried and I said to him “Listen you're OK. I'll get you out of there.” And then he actually started laughing so he was fine straight away. Once he saw that I wasn't worried, he wasn't worried. You know what I mean.

CO: But he was stuck in there.

DM: He was, but he was happy to just to be the center of center of attention in the moment. And then also he was able to peruse what was inside the machine while I went off to notify staff and they were going to get a key to open up the machine so that when I would turn back from talking to staff is when I decided to take a video to send on to my family. As in, look what look what Jamie has done now. And that's when he held up his two little, je chose two little dragons to take. So he held them open I was like “OK, OK.”

JD: Now that was Carol in conversation with Damien Murphy, whose son Jamie had managed to climb inside a claw machine at a play centre in Ireland. An off-duty firefighter eventually helped Jamie get out, no harm done.

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May 8th, 2017 episode transcript

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