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The AIH Transcript for April 20, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: If you can't stand the heat, you won't get a kitchen. So Ontario's government is stepping in to cool down Toronto's uncomfortably hot housing market. One economist warns the intervention could give buyers and sellers a nasty cold.

JD: Doing their best to prepare for the worse. After being woefully unprepared for the deadly chemical attack earlier this month, Syrian doctors are no longer leaving anything to chance.

CO: Clothes-minded. Four years after the deadly fire at a factory in Bangladesh. A new report says some Canadian retailers need to provide more disclosure about where exactly the garments they sell are coming from.

JD: When Raffi refers you “Riff-Raff” it's rough. But in the end, the legendary children's performer got over his objection to the name of a Canadian band and picked up the banana phone to apologize.

CO: He has it on the highest authority. And now, our guest is searching for the shipwrecks that the authority — the late NASA astronaut Gordon Cooper — discovered while he was on a space expedition.

JD: And… diving a hard bargain. An American company will soon let you board a submarine and descend to the most famous shipwreck of all: the Titanic. But you face a big obstacle that might sink your chances: the 140,000 dollar price tag. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that figures at that price, I don't believe that my heart nor the rest of me will go on.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: Real estate changes, garment transparency, Titanic sub and more

Real estate changes

Guest: Sherry Cooper

JD: Ontario's premier is taking action to calm what she calls, “Toronto’s frantic housing market”. Home prices have spiked by more than 30 per cent in just 12 months in the region and rents have sometimes doubled. So this morning, Premier Kathleen Wynne announced a series of measures including new rent controls and a tax on foreign speculators. But Sherry Cooper warns that there could be surprises ahead. Ms. Cooper is the chief economist at Dominion Lending Centres. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Ms. Cooper, the premier of Ontario appears to have support from both her Conservative and her NDP opponents. Rare occasion, so why are you so concerned?

SHERRY COOPER: The thing that concerns me the most is the expanded rent control. Just at the time when we're seeing an increase in the development of purpose-built rental apartment buildings. Here we see the introduction of rent control. I think that is going to be a huge disincentive to the supply of rental property.

CO: So from the point of view of the renter, is this a bad thing?

SC: No, from prison from the point of view of a tenant — an existing tenant — particularly in housing that is relatively new this is a good thing. But I'm looking at it from the perspective of an economist who looks at the longer run implications for supply and demand. The supply of rental housing has been woefully inadequate in Toronto and the region surrounding Toronto for a very long time and the demand is going to be increasing. I say that because right now, homeownership is probably at its peak roughly 70 per cent of Canadian households own their own home. And as we see an influx of younger people and new Canadians, they typically would want and need rental housing. And given that this will diminish the supply of new rental housing it actually might increase the actual level of rents. And even if we did see development of purpose-built rental apartment buildings, the initial rent would have to be high enough in order to incentivize the developers and the investors to put up the capital and take the risk initially given that they know that in the future rent increases will be very modest and probably insufficient to cover rising costs.

CO: Isn't the Ontario government attempting to offset that with the $125,000,000 program to encourage the construction of new rental apartment buildings?

SC: Yes, and that's exactly what they're trying to do is there is a whole host of initiatives to incentivize builders in the hopes of increasing affordable housing and particularly rental housing. The question is, is it sufficient to mitigate the full effect of rent control? And other cities that have imposed rent controls have found it was in no way sufficient. Because, let's face it, the available land on which to build is very limited and these measures to reduce the property taxes or to speed up the time for development are really quite moderate in comparison to the overall longer term effect of rent control.

CO: What started this is the problem that people can't afford to buy houses; the price of houses is so exorbitant. So if I'm looking to sell a house or buy a house what does it mean to me today these changes?

SC: Well, I think we're going to see a lot of people who have been on the sidelines wanting to sell their homes, but waiting because prices were rising so rapidly listing those homes. So I think the supply of homes on the market will increase and that will be augmented by the speculators, who are carrying properties that are very expensive and where rents are not covering the full cost because they bought these properties recently at sky high prices. Those are the ones that are going to want to dump their properties given all the uncertainty associated with these 16 measures. So supply is going to increase and if I were first time home buyer, I would be on the sidelines because I’d want to see what the impact of all of this will be? And hopefully, I would think, it will certainly reduce some of the huge speculation. And, in fact, it may even lead to price declines. So if you get more supply and less demand prices fall.

CO: Well isn't that the idea?

SC: That's exactly the idea. The question is how rapidly? We want a soft landing not a hard landing. And that's where there's so much uncertainty in all of this.

CO: Does this affect beyond Toronto Golden Horseshoe? Does it even affect those beyond Ontario?

SC: Well, certainly because if you look at housing as a percent of GDP in Canada, it's at a record high. Construction employment and other real estate related employment in the whole country as a percent of outstanding jobs is also at a record high. And then there are many people that are also affected including the real estate lawyers and the banks, the financial institutions, the mortgage brokers, you know on and on and on. In addition, there's so much consumption associated with housing. When you move into a home you typically need to buy paint and carpet or of furniture. And the spinoff of all of this impacts the entire economy not just the region that is impacted by these measures in the first place.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Ms. Cooper, thank you.

SC: You're welcome.

JD: Sherry Cooper is the chief economist at Dominion Lending Centres. We reached her in Toronto.

[Music: Folk violin]

Garment transparency

Guest: Bob Jeffcot

JD: It has been four years since the collapse of the Rana Plaza in Bangladesh. The eight-story building housing garment factories and a shopping centre. More than 1,000 workers died. After that disaster, there was new pressure on retailers to be transparent about how and where their products were manufactured. But a new report released today suggests that many companies are still being frustratingly opaque. The authors looked at 72 companies around the world, including some of the biggest retail chains here in Canada. Bob Jeffcot it is a policy analyst for the Maquila Solidarity Network, that's a labor and women's rights organization. The group is one of many contributors to this report. We reached Mr. Jeffcot in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Jeffcot, after the Rana Plaza disaster we heard the garment industry promise to change its ways. Are you seeing that evidence?

BOB JEFFCOT: Well, we're seeing some evidence of change. This was going to be the wakeup call for the industry, but unfortunately I think a lot of companies have gone back to sleep.

CO: You looked at several Canadian companies in this report. What did you find?

BJ: Well, first of all, I should say that there were 72 companies that were looked at. So on the positive side we're seeing a lot of major brand companies are now disclosing a lot of information on their supplier factories around the world. And that includes everyone from: Adidas, Nike, H&M, Hanes Brands Levi's, Patagonia. And of the Canadian companies, there were four that were looked at and of those Mountain Equipment Co-op almost made the standard that we're trying to achieve as being an industry wide standard for disclosure. And then there are three other Canadian companies one of them is Loblaw and Loblaw actually increased the amount of information is providing, but it's still not at that same level. So they're now disclosing the names of their factories and the country of manufacture, but not the actual addresses.

CO: And we're speaking mostly about the Joe Fresh brand, are we?

BJ: That's right. It would be the Joe Fresh brand that is very closely associated with the Rana Plaza disaster. The Hudson Bay Company actually has been disclosing information on supplier factories names and addresses of supplier factories. But some and not all and lastly Canadian Tire, which most people don't associate with clothes at all. But Canadian Tire owns Sport Check and Marks, which used to be Mark's Work Warehouse. And Canadian Tire is not disclosing currently any information on its supplier factories.

CO: So of all the ones you looked at Cane tire is not disclosing anything? Their statement says that they have a world-class, third-party auditing firm that monitors factory performance and progress to ensure consistent behaviors and values. Does that satisfy you?

BJ: No it doesn't. What it really says is you should trust us that we don't need to tell you where the factories are because we have these fantastic auditing firms that go in and check the factories and we know that the factories are good. But, unfortunately, that's the same approach that many companies took before Rana Plaza and none of them seemed to be able to notice even that the factory building itself was dangerous. But we're finding that that system of privatized labor standards monitoring is not working. And what we really need I think now is the system so that these factories are under public scrutiny and workers themselves. The workers at Rana Plaza knew the building was unsafe. They did not want to go to work that morning. They were ordered to do so because they had to meet the order deadlines of the brands whose products were being made there.

CO: The Rana Plaza factory collapse: 1,129 people dead, 2,500 injured. And what we saw immediately after the collapse was the garments themselves — the labels — were actually noted and photographed by those who were there including many of the ones you mentioned and in addition Benet, Joe fresh, Mango and Walmart were all labels associated with that. And at the time, when it was so exposed the companies recognized that they would make a big mistake if they didn't become more transparent. They lost business immediately because of their response. Why hasn't that momentum continued then?

BJ: Some of the companies learned lessons, but they couldn't avoid doing so because the labels were found in the rubble. Is that really the kind of system we want to be able to detect where products are being made? That people have to dig through the rubble or dig through the ashes of a burned factory. What we should have known ahead of time is which brands were using those particular factories that were unsafe, so that we could have prevented the disaster from happening. The other point I think is that when we do have factory disclosure what we've been able to do is we cross check the list the different brands. We can identify for five or six companies using the same factory and we can go to all of those companies and ask them will you work together to try to resolve these problems in this factory?

CO: Isn’t part of the problem lying with the countries governments themselves? We know that in Bangladesh there have been dozens of people charged, in fact, 38 people have been charged with murder for what happened in that factory. At the same time, they have been reluctant to sanction the companies or to or to go after the multinationals to say we're going to establish standards. We're going to have rules and laws and even minimum wage and they're not doing that because Bangladesh depends on those foreign garment manufacturers for the survival of the country. So what responsibility do the countries themselves have?

BJ: No, absolutely they do. But they're under enormous pressure. Companies like brands and retailers, some of the ones we've mentioned. They are not only gravitating to countries like Bangladesh for cheap labor. The labor laws are being poorly enforced and in some cases enforcement is almost non-existent. So that is actually an attraction because labor costs don't just mean wages they also mean the costs of safety of investing in factories. Using newer factories would be one option, but putting multiple factories in a five-story building that is built on swamp land is obviously not the solution to the problem. But it does save money and if the country isn't meeting those standards they move to another country. Now we have a lot of companies moving production to Myanmar. We have companies moving production to Ethiopia in Africa. Who knows when we are going to reach the bottom in terms of labor standards?

CO: We will leave it there. I appreciate speaking with you Mr. Jeffcot.

BJ: Thank you very much.

JD: Bob Jeffcot is a policy analyst with the Maquila Solidarity Network. We reached Mr. Jeffcot in Toronto. A report released today says many retailers are still not doing enough to provide information on where their clothing products are being made.

[Music: Electronica]

Titanic sub

Guest: Stockton Rush

JD: There's whale-watching, there's iceberg gazing, and of course, sportfishing. But next year a U.S. company is going to be offering something new for the well-heeled visitor to Newfoundland. For just 140,000 dollars tourists will be able to take a submarine trip to the wreck of the Titanic. Stockton Rush is the founder of OceanGate incorporated. We reached Mr. Rush in Seattle.

CO: Mr. Rush has anyone signed on yet for your submarine trip to the Titanic?

STOCKTON RUSH: Yes we have the entire first year of 54 mission specialists filled out and two weeks of 2019.

CO: And do all those people pay for the trip?

SR: The mission specialists are the ones who financed the trip.

CO: So the mission specialist is what you're calling your…

SR: Citizen science — the non-researcher component.

CO: So they'll have jobs to do on this trip?

SR: Yes they will. They will do everything from operating in the sonar or the communication systems, handling data, but they will be they will be working.

CO: As I understand they’ve each paid about 140,000 Canadian dollars to be on this.

SR: That is correct.

CO: What kind of people provided that kind of money for this trip?

SR: Well, there are a lot of folks with significant capital and wealth. And this is sort of a subset of that of that group in that we require each of the people who interested in coming to fill out an application and have a phone interview because we really are looking for individuals that are looking for a unique experience where they're going to contribute. It's not a luxury trip. They're not going to be treated like they might when they go to a five-star resort. It's very much being part of the crew and doing something to advance the knowledge about the Titanic. So there are a surprisingly large number of people with the kind of funds that we need.

CO: So even though they're paying 140,000 dollars Canadian, they had to apply for this. You interviewed them and you screened them?

SR: Yes, and we have rejected several. So you know some people have come to us and they it's quite clear they want a luxury yacht and this is a working it's a very nice offshore supply vessel that we're using. But it's not luxury by any stretch.

CO: OK, so if I'm a mission specialist what happens? How do I make this trip?

SR: For the formal trip you'd meet up in St. John's on a Thursday night. On Friday, you would go through helicopter underwater egress training. You'll learn about a survival suit that you'll wear because the next day, you get on a Sikorsky S-76 helicopter and fly from St. John's out to rendezvous point with the offshore supply vessel, which is a 90 meter ship. And then you will transit from that point out to the Titanic because there are no helicopters that can make it all the way to the Titanic site. And then the next day you'll be diving and we will dive every day for the next three days and we have a fourth spare.

CO: So how much time do you actually spend in the submarine?

SR: Well, on the dive days you'll spend eight to ten hours in the submarine.

CO: How cramped is that?

SR: It's actually for a small sub it's luxurious. So it is about the same size inside as the Apollo 11 command module. It's sort of like a suburban without the seats in it. So you know for five people it's quite comfortable.

CO: And you’re going to take them 4,000 meters below sea level. OK, what could go wrong?

SR: What could go wrong? What's not to like? You know this sub has been we've tested a number of versions of the carbon fiber hull. We will test the entire pressure vessel, so that the real challenge with a deep diving submersible is to make sure that the pressure vessel stays intact. Almost everything else that we use if we have thrusters fail or we have other system problems we can get back to the surface. Really the critical item is make sure that the that the hull stays together and we're quite confident that with the engineering we've done and we monitor it all the time. We have strain gauges and acoustic sensors so we can tell if there's a problem.

CO: Titanic's been down there since 1912. So what can people actually see?

SR: Well, one of the nice things about going deep is the visibility is quite good. So the images that I think the individuals probably been to the Titanic more than almost anyone else would be James Cameron. And all the filming that he did for the last of the 18 movies on the Titanic that's what you will see. So those are those images that are in the movie are actual pictures he took from the Russian Mir submersibles. So you can see not just the wreck, but then there's a whole colony of biology that has assembled. So when shipwrecks go down they become artificial reefs and we will see all kinds of deep sea marine biology that are quite amazing.

CO: What's the thing that people most want to see when they go on something like?

SR: The bow. I think every dive will start with coming up on the bow because that I think for most people they remember the last Titanic movie and the shots of the mirrors coming up over the bow. And then that image of Kate Winslet and Leonardo DiCaprio in front of the bow. That's something that I think resonates with everyone.

CO: Are they prepared for that it's not going to look quite like it did in the movie?

SR: Well, it looks like the underwater shots. But yes, it will look different. And I hope they're prepared for that.

CO: 1,500 people perished in that trek. So are they aware that there remains anything left of people?

SR: No, no, the ocean is pretty good at consuming biological stuff like people, but it is a grave site. It is a UNESCO underwater heritage site. We're not going to touch anything. We're not going to take anything. And we believe we and we plan to treat it like we would Normandy or Gettysburg or any other place where a lot of people died. So it is very eerie though because the clothing will remain, particularly things like rubber boots and things like that. But the bodies have been consumed by all the marine organisms.

CO: All right, Mr. Rush, bon voyage.

SR: Well thank you.

CO: Bye bye.

SR: Bye.

JD: Stockton Rush is the founder of OceanGate incorporated. We reached him in Seattle. And you can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Shake my sillies out/ Children’s music]

Raffi apology

JD: Well yes, when it comes to sillies, and the shaking out there of, Raffi is the internationally-renowned master. This week, however, the legendary children's performer’s sillies got stuck for a while, even though he was clearly shaken. Now, I'm not here to put Raffi down. He is, indeed, a giant who stands head and shoulders above all our other artists who make music for kids. Sometimes though, when you reach great heights you lose your sense of perspective. Maybe your head's in the clouds. Maybe you have been struck in the face by a seagull. In this case, we know what hit Raffi. A tweet from a producer with the Minnesota radio station The Current, Who wrote that it was quote, “a real treat’ to have The New Pornographers pay a visit. The New Pornographers, of course, are a Canadian band who have released seven absolutely fantastic albums since the year 2000, including a brand new one called “White Out Conditions”. But Raffi seemed unfamiliar and unimpressed. He tweeted at Ms. Reed quote, “Strongly object to the name. As bad as food porn etc.” even though he's so objects to the word porn that he put asterisks in place of the “O” and the “R”. Carl Newman, the leader of the New Pornographers, took mild exception to being taken exception to. He tweeted

Quote, “Playing Raffi to my 5-year-old and he says is this the man who hates Daddy? Heartbreaking. ‘No, he doesn't hate Daddy. I say, hugging him.” He went on, “The new pornography was supposed to hold a mirror up to a better and changed society, but try explaining that to an apoplectic kids entertainer.” But as things shook out, Raffi's sillies departed. By the next day, he had sent a message to Mr. Newman that read, in part, quote, “in a fleeting moment I reacted to a word not cool. I apologize meant no disrespect to the band, its music, or its fans.” Well that de-escalated very quickly what a stereotypically Canadian beef. In terms of Sillies, it seems like both parties got together and shook on it.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Syrian doctor, Cooper’s treasure, and more

Syrian doctor

Guest: Houssam al-Nahhas

JD: Doctors in Syria are determined to not get caught off-guard again. Medical workers were not fully prepared to treat victims of the sarin gas attack on April 4th in Idlib province. And that is why Syrian doctor Houssam al-Nahhas is taking action now. Dr. al-Nahhas wrote the chemical attack protocols for medical facilities in rebel-held areas of Syria. We reached Dr. al-Nahhas in Istanbul.

CO: Doctor al-Nahhas, why were the doctors and medical staff so unprepared for this sarin gas attack?

HOUSSAM AL-NAHHAS: Yes, the main problem is that after the massive attack in 2013, in Damascus countryside, there was a convention. According to this convention with the Syrian government, there were no chemical agents to remain in Syria. All chemical weapons will be destroyed according to this convention. And that's why there was a lack of interest among the house organizations and even the medical personnel working inside Syria to prepare for such an attack.

CO: So people believed that when they heard that this was called the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons they had confirmed that this gas sarin gas was no longer available to Bashar al-Assad. They believe that that was the case, is that right?

HA: Yes, it was not only about what they did believe, but it was an official announcement from OPCW that 100 per cent of the schedule one chemical agents were destroyed, which includes sarin and mustard gas.

CO: And yet, you were there just before this attack. You were there trying to instruct the people to prepare them for this possibility why did you still think it was possible?

HA: Well, actually, I was checking the preparedness for responding to chemical agents in general because you know after this convention, 171 chemical attacks took place. But using non-destroyed agents like chlorine. Problem with sarin is that in order to respond to such attacks we need special protective equipment and we need also some special antidotes and medication to treat patients.

CO: The antidote to that. And so when you told people that in the region in Idlib that they needed to prepare for this to get the supplies and equipment. How much interest was there? Did they tell you well, we don't need to prepare for this because there are no more these sarin weapons?

HA: Yes, because most hospitals in North in Syria are overloaded with cases from the use of barrel bombs and other types of weapons. So they are already overwhelmed and they were not interested in preparing for responding to chemical attacks. Because, as I told you, according to OPCW there is no more chemical agents inside Syria.

CO: This is a very important point you make. It wasn't because they didn't care or they were being lazy about it. They just have so much to dealing with chlorine gas attacks and barrel bombs and all kinds of unconventional and conventional weapons hitting that civilian population. If they could just take one thing off the table it would relieve them a bit. That's what they did.

HA: Exactly. Because we’re talking about repairing decontamination points inside Syria we are talking about repairing a hospital to deal with victims from chemical attacks. So it's another work that they should do. And if they can just remove one task it will be better for them to be prepared for another type of injury.

CO: You were not in the country when the chemical weapons attack happened and so you were watching it from afar. What was going through your mind when you saw that?

HA: The first thing that I was thinking about is how we trusted you know OPCW reports. You should trust this report 100 per cent. So what would happen to people inside Syria? How they're going to deal with this huge amount of victims and knowing that a few days ago almost all hospitals around the area were destroyed by another type of attacks made it a very hard task save this huge number of people.

CO: So you are watching as we were 500 people injured, more than 80 deaths. Many of them small children and that was just so horrible to watch. Did you wish that you had pushed them more? That you had did you had tried to convince them to be ready for this possibility?

HA: Yes, this was one of the thoughts that I had. But the problem is that they were not prepared not because they don't want to. So we were unable to do anything because if you know that even according to W.H.O. there were no need to prepare to face sarin.

CO: You have been back in the region trying to prepare people for this now and to try and get the materials — the supplies — you need for another possible chemical attack of this nature and to train people. You've written a manual for how to deal with these kinds of weapons. And so do you feel now that people are ready if this happens again that Bashar al-Assad uses these weapons again?

HA: Well, actually a plan is not like it's not a magic. So we need to do the qualification and we need to do training in order to just allow people to refresh their memory and even qualify new staff and white habits to respond to such attacks. We actually started our training plan, we finished our training plan and we are going to start next week to do training. And we are going to target medical staff in 70 hospitals in northern Syria. And we also started to provide them with PPE (protective equipment) and also some antidote fore sarin. And we are trying to get more to complete the plan so we can distribute enough of these antidotes to all hospitals working in northern Syria at least. because in southern Syria you know the accessibility is more challenging. So it will not be easy for us to reach this area.

CO: You're giving this training to doctors and medical personnel. These are people who have been trained for all kinds of things to help people to heal them. How do they react that they have to have this knowledge of how to deal with a child or anyone being attacked with sarin gas? I mean to have to prepare doctors for this kind of work must be extraordinary both for you and for them?

HA: Well yes, but when you think about doctors who prefer to stay inside Syria under direct shelling from helicopters and barrel bombs, I do believe that they have enough courage to stay there and also respond to chemical attacks and risk their lives to save others. Because that's why they are now inside Syria, otherwise they would prefer to go out of Syria and to be safe.

CO: These are extraordinary people.

HA: Yes, yes.

CO: Doctor al-Nahhas, I admire your courage and that of all those doctors with whom you're working and I thank you so much for the work that you're doing.

HA: Thank you.

CO: All right, good night.

HA: Good night.

JD: Doctor Houssam al-Nahhas works with the Union of Medical Care and Relief Organizations, or U.O.S.S.M. He wrote the chemical attack protocols for medical facilities in rebel-held areas of Syria. We reached Dr. al-Nahhas in Istanbul.

[Music: Cultural]

Calbee chips follow-up

JD: If you listened to last night's program, you probably heard a clip from an ad by the Japanese potato chip producer Calbee. The ad featured a dog with glowing red eyes, a UFO, a soccer game and some potato chips among other things. And we played that piece of nightmare-inducing mini cinema for you because there is a crisis in Japan: there is a shortage of potato chips. After a series of typhoons on the island of Hokkaido devastated the potato crop, some manufacturers, including Calbee, which is the biggest snack company in Japan, have had to stop selling some of their products. And as we told you yesterday flavors like “French Salad” and “Plum Flavor” have been cut. And Darryl Gibson, who is a listener in Japan, contacted us to say that the loss of Plum chips is a quote, “a real tragedy”.

Darryl writes quote, “These were, are, I hope the absolutely best potato chips I have tasted in more than six decades as a chip aficionado. The nori, which are still available, are a seriously unappetizing alternative. The only bright spot in this bleak situation is that black pepper chips were on the shelf at my local supermarket yesterday. Although there are several fewer bags now than there were before I arrived.” Well thank you Mr. Gibson for keeping us updated on the situation. And after two consecutive days of covering this story, we here at As It Happens are quite curious as to what a plum flavored chip might taste like. Should anyone have information on this please contact us on our secure line: 416-205-5687 or tweet at us: cbcasithappens or e-mail us: aih@cbc.ca, but do get in touch.

[Music: Latin]

Cooper’s Treasure

Guest: Darrell Miklos

JD: It sounds like a sequel to the Nicolas Cage film “National Treasure”, but it should be much better than that, I mean let's hope. It is a real life documentary series about a treasure hunt in the Caribbean. But it all started in space. Astronaut Gordon Cooper brought home a souvenir from space: not a moon rock, but a treasure map. And later, he passed that map on to his friend: professional treasure hunter Darrell Miklos and he'll tell you the rest. We reached Mr. Miklos in Orange County, California near San Juan Capistrano.

CO: Darrell, how did this astronaut — your friend — Gordon Cooper. How did he come to make this treasure map?

DARRELL MIKLOS: Well, he was on his Mercury Nine flight and he was on a special mission looking for nuclear threats at the time just after the Bay of Pigs in 1963. He was looking for nuclear sites utilizing some sort of long-range detection equipment. He was picking up large anomalies for those things and very small ones in shallow water and shallow reef areas, which he did do were shipwrecks based on his experience.

CO: So he could see these anomalies. What did they look like? What drew them to his attention because he's looking for weapons systems, isn't he?

DK: He had what we called a crude version of a magnetometer. It picks up magnetic readings from large metal objects. And so when he was circumnavigating the globe, he picked up the smaller anomalies that didn't match that of a nuclear threat. So he immediately wrote GPS coordinates in a handbook because they were smaller, yet they were out in the middle of nowhere in very isolated locations throughout the Caribbean, Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico and South America off the coast of Florida. And then when he got back to Earth, after the accolades, he bought himself a sea chart and put them on a very large sea chart and he and his partner went out to look and investigate these sites and they made a bunch of files based on those anomaly readings and he didn't have enough time to finish them obviously because there were so many. And he handed me all the files later on in life. And that along with the sea chart I'm putting together an expedition whereby we are setting out to look for Cooper's treasure.

CO: This is like a pirate story. This is the sort of stuff that somebody finds these treasures and maps them out and then you get the maps quite something.

DK: Yeah, well the only thing is I'm not a pirate and neither was Gordon. So we were more explorers and we did a lot of research together and we were setting up expeditions. But before we were actually able to finish or complete any of those, he passed away. Prior to his passing, he gifted me all of these files.

CO: Now in these files what kinds of shipwrecks has he identified? What are the ships that went down in those locations?

DK: Yeah, most of the shipwrecks that he's interested in are from the colonial period whether that be Spanish, English, Dutch, French and there were literally hundreds of thousands of shipwrecks over that span of from the initial Columbus route all the way through the early 1900s. So 1500 all the way through the late 1700s were shipwrecks that he was most interested in.

CO: Now what do you think and what did he think is actually still on or with those ships?

DK: He did some research on about 10 anomaly areas and in those areas the organic material like wood obviously disintegrated over the centuries. But the metal cannons and anchors and ships hardware that's where the anomalies came from. The magnetic readings from those metal objects is what he picked up from space.

CO: Do you think that any of the ships that you're looking at were those of Columbus fleets?

DK: It's a very likely possibility that we could run into something like that. I can't really go into details on what it is that we're looking for because kind of like I just can't go into the details.

CO: This is part of a documentary series you're making. What can you tell us about what might be discovered and documented in the course of this series?

DK: Well, we expect to discover ships from the colonial period that were bringing large hordes of treasure as cargo back to Spain. Basically the Spanish and English and everybody was battling for the new world and they would go into the into world and steal from the indigenous people and rob their country or their land of you know silver and gold. And they would make coins out of the silver and gold from the Indigenous North American countries and South America and they would bring all of that treasure back to Spain. But, of course, a lot of that treasure never made it back. So we're hoping to find things of historical and commercial value and we want to tell the story of these lost ships at sea and share that with the world and share it with the host countries that allow us to do that research and surveys. And that's what we're trying to do it's to open up a dialogue about the past.

CO: And the treasurers themselves, as you point out, most of it, if not all of it, is pillaged and taken from these countries. And so will you return these treasures to the countries where they come from?

DK: Well, if you go back to the source of where the silver and the gold came from it would be to the Indigenous people in the Americas. So that would be a hard thing to do. So wherever we're finding shipwrecked material if it's in the territorial waters of any host country in which we set up an agreement where we have an agreement to share the commercially valuable artifacts, they would get their share and we would get a payment or a share of the treasure found by an legal document with them.

CO: Just be clear Darrell, will the artifacts that you find be returned to the countries and to the Indigenous people who owned them?

DK: Well the Indigenous people, a lot of them or are gone civilizations. That would be the Mayans and Aztecs and the Incas. They are no longer what you would call people that are a civilization. So the gold would then belong to the country in which these shipwrecks lie.

CO: Well just to point out that civilizations may no longer exist, but the indigenous people certainly do.

DK: Yes, of course. I mean if there was a way to find out exactly where the silver and gold come from, but then again, the Indigenous people live in countries that have new borders and names that don't coincide with the indigenous people unless we found valuable Indian artifacts that were obvious from a certain region I guess that would be something that we would think about.

CO: It should be quite interesting figuring out who owns them and I wish you luck with your series. Darrell, thank you.

DK: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

JD: We reached treasure hunter Darrell Miklos in Orange County, California. His documentary series “Cooper's Treasure” is going to premiere in Canada this spring. And we have posted more on this story on our website. That is, of course, www.cbc.ca/aih

[Music: Folk]

Dateline: Scottish National Party accent

JD: Dateline: Palace of Westminster, London, England.

[Music: Dateline theme]

JD: On June the 10th of 2015, newly elected Scottish National Party Member of Parliament Alan Brown rose to ask his first question in the British House of Commons.

SOUNDCLIP

ALAN BROWN: [Speaking: A nearly indecipherable line of speech]

JD: So if you missed that, Mr. Brown asked the Business Minister whether she had…um… there was a question about there was jobs I heard mentioned in there — it was it was government stuff. Now look, I know: any Canadian who has ever been asked why do you guys say a boot eh? knows just how irritating it is when someone pokes fun of your accent. But, in Alan Brown's case, it's not that people are trying to put his accent down. It is that they are trying to clear it up. In the UK, like in Canada, the official report on proceedings in the House of Commons is called the Hansard. And so the people who put Hansard together need to understand what was said in the House and Mr. Brown's Kilmarnock accent makes that a bit of a challenge. He told the Telegraph newspaper quote, “it became a running joke with my colleagues that even if I asked a two line question, Hansard would send me a note asking me to confirm what I said. As a matter of course, if you do a speech, they ask for your speech notes. But with me, it's even just a question.” So knowing that, Mr. Brown has slowed down his speech since his first days in parliament. So now when he rises on a point of order, as he did on March 22nd of this year, he consciously tries not to create any points of disorder.

SOUNDCLIP

AB: We know that the Tories have been fined a record 70,000 pounds. How can I make sure that the record is correct? [incomprehensible]

JD: So SNP MP Alan Brown addressing British Parliament last month. You may have noticed that Mr. Brown has made a few adjustments so that his colleagues can understand him better, but only a few because he says his constituents wouldn't like it if it changed too much. In other words, instead of playing it safe, he's going to keep on going for brogue.

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Part 3: Kashmir violence, lost wallet and more

Facebook brain control

JD: Yesterday, Facebook made an announcement that depending, I guess on your attitude towards technology, is either incredibly exciting or absolutely horrifying. At the company's F8 conference, head of hardware innovation Regina Dugan revealed that Facebook is working on mind reading technology. Yes, Facebook, the company whose business model is to harvest as much of your personal data as possible in order to sell it to advertisers. But don't worry. Facebook is not going to do that with your thoughts. Ms. Dugan made sure to say so in the presentation.

SOUNDCLIP

REGINA DUGAN: What if you could type directly from your brain? Even something as simple as a “yes”. “no” brain click would fundamentally change our capability. The woman in this video has ALS, she is completely trapped inside her body. She cannot move or speak, but she is typing with her mind. Not with eke blinks, with her mind. An array of electrodes the size of a pea has been implanted where her brain would normally control her motor functions. Using this system, she can type eight words per minute. She is typing at eight words per minute directly with her brain. Together we have a goal of creating a system capable of typing a hundred words per minute, five times faster than you can type on your smartphone, straight from your brain. Now, to be clear, we are not talking about decoding your random thoughts. That might be more than any of us care to know. And it's not something any of us should have a right to know. Think of it more like this: you take many photos; you choose to share some of them. Similarly, you have many thoughts; you choose to share some of them. We're talking about decoding those words, the ones you already decided to share, by sending them to this speech center of your brain. A silent speech interface one with all the speed and flexibility of voice, but with the privacy of typed text.

JD: That was Facebook's head of Hardware Innovation Regina Dugan, speaking at the company's F8 conference yesterday. And, as you just heard, there's nothing to worry about. Like Ms. Dugan said, you choose to share only some of your photos — except when your computer is hacked and all your photos are spread across the Internet for anyone to see. But we're sure that Facebook will never let that happen with your thoughts. Ms Dugan said Facebook has a team of 60 people working toward the goal of reading brain waves without wires.

[Music: Ambient]

Kashmir violence

Guest: Riyaz Masroor

JD: In the video a young man in Kashmir named Farooq Dar is tied to the front of an Indian Army vehicle meant to serve as a human shield to prevent protesters from attacking the military convoy. Tensions are high in Kashmir. Ten people have been killed, more than 100 injured, after clashes erupted over a contentious by-election last weekend. And the image of Mr. Dar tied to the grill of that Jeep and other shocking videos and pictures have provoked such outrage that the government is now looking at a total ban on social media. Riyaz Masroor is a reporter with the BBC based in Kashmir. We reached him in Srinagar.

CO: Riyaz, who was this man who was tied to the front of this Jeep. What can you tell us about him?

RIYAZ MASROOR: He's a very, very ordinary man. 26-year-old from the region of Kashmir where people who have never boycotted. He, ironically, got into this one hour after he cast a vote at nearby polling station.

CO: So this is an election that Kashmiri separatists are calling to boycott. So he was exercising his franchise. He wanted to vote. So why, of all people, was he the one that the military decided to use in this way?

RM: There’s a lot of tension going on in the whole district while the election was on and polling was on. Farooq Dar was the person who the army spotted first when they reached his village. You know there was only seven per cent of the population voting, 93 per cent of the population boycotted. And it was only after you know paramilitary forces called up an army unit that there were mobs trying to attack a polling station. That was only after this army convoy tried to patrol the area. And as soon as they spotted a person because there were not many people you know roaming around. People were staying indoors. They saw two men riding a motorbike, Farooq Dar and his brother they were on the way to a funeral of one of their relatives. And Farooq’s elder brother, who was on the back seat, they let him go. But just got hold of Farooq Dar and just tied him to the front of the jeep and pasted a white paper on his chest. Written on that was was whoever wants to throw stones will meet the same fate as this man. They made an example of him. Farooq Dar told me that he was driven around seven villages and he roughly calculates that it was around 30 miles.

CO: How long did they keep him tied to the front of this jeep?

RM: Farooq Dartells me that after being driven around villages for several hours, he found himself in a paramilitary camp. Where, again, he was tied to a wooden chair and this was only due to the help of a village elder, who pleaded before the paramilitary forces and told them that he's not a stone thrower and that he was only caught after he cast his vote. And then the officers agreed and he let him go.

CO: And what effect has this had on him?

RM: He still is in trauma. He tells me that he feels that as if his limbs are broken. And one of the remarkable sentences he uttered, which even disturbed me, is he says that you know days after this incident he still feels as if he's still tied to the jeep.

CO: Kashmir is an area that is administered by India. And so the Indian government has said that is going to do an investigation or some kind of review of what happened. What are the authorities at this point saying about this video that's been posted of this man and what happened to him?

RM: There's a lot of confusion. I mean there's a local state government, which has stood the case in a local police station. But there is very stringent and tough Indian law in force, which is called Armed Forces Special Powers Act. It means that even the personnel from any army or paramilitary force is found guilty of doing any such acts cannot be prosecuted according to the local law. But the state government claims that they have launched an inquiry and a local army unit also saying that they launched an inquiry, but there have been disturbing noises coming now from the Delhi Attorney General, who defends government India in Supreme Court and is the highest judicial authority in India. Saying that whatever Army did was genuine because it was needed to give a message. And this has inflamed a lot of protest.

CO: For people who don't know this conflict has been going on for 27 years. Some are saying that there have been this use of human shields before on both sides: both the stone throwers and on the side of the government. But that this image has now become almost a poster — an icon — of the conflict and it's bound to generate a great deal of tension in the region even beyond what's there now. What's your sense?

RM: This image has become iconic because we are living in an age of social media. The armed insurgency against India in Kashmir may have started in the 1990s, but there have been instances when the armed forces used common people as human shield against the armed insurgents. But this is the first time that a human shield has been used against the mobs, which were not armed. They were just throwing stones.

CO: There is a report that the Kashmiri government is planning to shut down social media in reaction to this that the way of dealing with this is not to allow anymore of such images to circulate. Is that actually going to happen?

RM: Yeah, actually I mean the state government is contemplating a ban on social media, but somehow due lack of technology called support they're not able to block particular sites. But they shut down entire internet servers so that people don't have access to internet.

CO: What's your sense of what this is going to do? Do you think that this insurgency will be sparked anew because of it?

RM: You know as of now, this has inflamed anti-India sentiment across these ten districts. In almost all the campuses of colleges and you know what makes the matters worse is that a senior BJP leader, who is also the minister in the state, he has said whatever has happened with Farooq Dar is what Kashmiri youngsters who are pelting stones deserve. So these things add fuel to the fire.

CO: We will leave it there. Riyaz, I appreciate you speaking with us tonight. Thank you.

RM: You're welcome.

Riyaz Masroor is a reporter with the BBC based in Kashmir. We reached him in Srinagar.

[Music: Cultural]

Quote/Unqoute: Indian judge

JD: And now Quote/Unquote.

[Music: Is this a theme?]

JD: In 1999, a landlord in the northern Indian state of Himachl Pradesh filed the paperwork to evict a tenant who allegedly was not paying rent, which is understandable. The tenant fought back, also understandable, and the last December, it took a while, a High Court decided in favor of the tenant saying he had actually paid his rent after all. And that is understandable. What is not understandable is the actual text of the High Court's decision and not just to lay people, but to judges on India's Supreme Court. This week, they set the High Court's decision aside because as those Supreme Court judges put it in their ruling quote, “One cannot understand this.” So it is clear that something about the High Court judge’s language was not clear. And, as far as I can tell, that something is the words. For example, in this section the judge addresses nothing about the case I assume quote, “The learned counsel cannot derive the fullest succour from the aforesaid acquiescence given its sinews suffering partial dissipation from an imminent display occurring in the impugned pronouncement here at — where within — unravelments are held qua the rendition recorded by the learned rent controller.” Unquote.

[Music: That theme]

Ottawa bank scam

JD: Robert Jarecsni was outside in Ottawa shopping centre, waiting to transfer buses, when someone approached him and asked him to donate money. Mr. Jarecsni name is in his 20s. He has autism. He said no. According to his mom, he tried to walk away, but a woman claiming to be with the charity told him there was an emergency with children involved. And then, according to Ottawa police, the woman led Mr. Jarecsni to a nearby atm, he entered his pin, she pushed him aside and took the money out of his account herself: about two week’s pay. The incident happened a few weeks ago. Now, Ottawa Police have released an image of a woman who is a person of interest in the case. And yesterday, John Jarecsni and Susan Torrie, Robert's parents, spoke with the CBC in Ottawa and host Alan Neal asked Ms. Torrie how she had found out what happened to her son.

SOUNDCLIP

SUSAN TORRIE: When Robert is out and about, thanks to technology, we're able to keep a pretty close eye on his comings and goings. And so we're aware when you know he gets on and off the bus. We can see that. We can see on our iPhones where he's at and we can look up when there's transactions at the bank. So that particular night, we noticed the transaction and really within minutes of it happening we were aware. We called Robert, he wasn't able to explain to us what happened. It was clear to us that something unfortunate had happened, but he wasn't, frankly, he doesn't even have the vocabulary for that type of experience, right? So John went and picked Robert up and went to the Rideau Centre with him. And Robert was able to walk him through what happened. But I would say it was really probably a couple of days before emotionally Robert was able to click with what had happened and really talk to us about what happened.

ALAN NEAL: Police are saying that they think Robert was targeted because of his disability. And John, I just wonder what that is like for you to be thinking of it as parents?

JOHN JARECSNI: Well, it’s knowing that Robert is always vulnerable and always will be vulnerable. So you know there's that almost sadness that Robert will almost always be like a child. But there's also great joy because each step along the way is something we never thought possible for Robert. Like I think back Robert when he's very, very young being attached and then about two and a half three asking where Robert is going to be? And they said you know what you see is what you get. You might not see anything beyond this. So every time Robert is able to accomplish something there's just such incredible joy that he's able to show you something. And certainly we look at what he's been able to achieve like he's a guy out there who takes the bus. He works couple of part time jobs. He is engaged in this community. He's out there doing things in each of these things is a miracle to us that he's able to do it. So yeah, we're sad in some ways that he will always be vulnerable, but we're also just immensely proud of him.

AN: You decided to go public with this. Susan, what made you decide to go ahead? Because I know at first you weren't sure about telling people.

ST: And I would say I'm a little less generous than John in my feelings right now. I would say I'm angry that this happened. And I'm angry that he was taken advantage of. And initially, we were really hesitant to come forward with this because we didn't want to expose Robert as vulnerable. And we were thinking of Robert's dignity in the situation. You know we didn't want to put this out there on you know on him. But the flipside of that is that when these things are allowed to continue on in the shadows and people aren’t talking about it and aren’t being made alert to it they're going to continue to happen.

JD: That is CBC Ottawa’s “All In A Day” host Alan Neal, in conversation with John Jarecsni and Susan Torrie, parents of Robert Jarecsni. Ms. Torrie also said that, “the incident had shaken her son's confidence.” That's a quote. He is still taking the bus, but he has changed his route so that he can avoid the Rideau Centre. That is the shopping centre near where the incident occurred.

[Music: Suspenseful]

Lost wallet

Guest: Tim Burrows

JDL: More than a decade ago, Tim Burroughs went to the reading festival in England. He did what most 19-year-olds do at a music festival: he drank — a little too much — and in the process, he lost his wallet. Well earlier this week, Mr. Burroughs received a Facebook message: someone had found his wallet, but that was just the beginning of the story. We reached Tim Burrows in London.

CO: Tim, do you have any memory of losing this wallet?

TIM BURROWS: Well, yeah, yeah I do. The problem is when you say “this wallet” because I have sort of several memories of losing wallets. One kind of hazy memory that I’ve pieced together is at Reading. I've sort of done this through talking to my wife, who I actually went to the festival with. We've been together a long time and we met just before said festival, so it would have been our first one I think.

CO: And that was like 14 years ago?

TB: Yeah we met in late 2002, and she says she remembers picking up a wallet from last property, so I suppose that was it. And you know I remember loosing at least one wallet at Reading Festival.

CO: What happens at the Reading Festival? What's it like?

TB: Everybody knows Glastonbury and that's a bit more of a natural celebration of a kind of hippie ideals and things that's what it grew out of think so grew out. Reading is sort of a much more straightforward rock and heavy rock, metal and alternative rock sort of culture. And it really is just 16,17 and 18-year-olds after I finished at GCSE or A-level and you know before they've gone off to uni and matured. It's just a go and get completely out of your mind in a series of fields in Reading.

CO: So I'm guessing there's a little bit of alcohol involved here?

TB: Yeah, I think a little might be you know a bit of an underestimation. Yeah, it's a place where teenagers go to sort of try and get served beer or take their own cider and vodka and go and see their favorite bands and just sort of go mad really.

CO: So tell us about this Facebook message you just recently found?

TB: I think it was sent last September by a guy called Giles, who was seeking to find the legendary Tim Burrows. So I think he's been into a few before himself and so he had some of his friends to see if they could find the source of their drinking ritual.

CO: So just before we get to the drinking ritual, you recently got a Facebook message from somebody who found your wallet?

TB: Yeah, and the message just said did you lose a wallet in 2003, or something like that? And I sort of replied to him saying it could well be likely. And I said do you have my wallet? And he explained he didn't have my wallet, but in finding ten pounds and buying all the cider they could, I sort of inspired this Tim Burrows Challenge.

CO: He admits that he found your wallet and he or friends took ten pounds from your wallet?

TB: Well this is it, I think he felt quite guilty and I think this is partly why they were searching for Tim Burrows so they could return 10 pounds. I don't really begrudge them taking the ten pounds. There's a strange vibe at Reading. It's full of people who've run out of money on the first day because I don't really know how to budget because they're really drunk and they're 17-years-old. And so I can see the logic in spending all of the money in the wallet on site immediately. But also you know doing quite a nice thing by handing into lost property with the cards intact. So I think that's probably the most decent that you can actually be Reading Festival.

CO: But they've gone beyond that haven't they in being decent? They have a drinking game in your honor.

TB: I mean it's very touching actually to have this drinking game. I really like the ritualistic aspect of it.

CO: What's the drinking game?

TB: They've told me that it just consists of drinking three or four liters of very strong cider. So they line up three or four liters of white cider, put people in teams and try and drink as much as possible within I think five minutes maybe. So I think to call it a game it's a bit of a stretch. I think that's why they call it a challenge.

CO: So did you learn anything from Giles about who wins or how they win?

TB: There’s more detail on people being sort of rolled up in carpet by the end of the night and falling asleep outside. I think whoever won in the evening probably didn't feel like they'd won in the morning, but I'm actually going to speak to Giles later and there's a possibility we might meet.

CO: You're going to go drinking with these guys?

TB: Well, you know, I'm not a big fan of cider, but I feel a duty.

CO: When might they meet Tim Burrows?

TB: It might be on the cards this week. It's quite an odd thing to have happen. I think those guy,s as much as me, were quite amazed by the response and the popularity of the story. Because you know you don't really predict these kinds of things.

CO: And you have a five-month-old daughter now.

TB: Yes, so I don't know whether to tell her about the Tim Burrows Challenge? I don't know when it's the right moment? I think she's safe from it now.

CO: Just remember that caring for a newborn when you have a major hangover is not easy.

TB: Well, yeah, I've tried to avoid them so far, which is why I haven't I haven't named a date to meet the guys yet.

CO: Well I hope it's fun. I Hope you survive it, Tim. Good to talk to you. Thanks.

TB: Thank you.

JD: Take pictures, you'll need them. We reached Tim Burrows in London. And there is more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Rock]

Most interesting genome

JD: And the nominees are: the sexually dimorphic Temple Pit Viper snake; the explosive bombardier beetle; the Pink pigeon; the “solar powered” sea slug and Sandy Maliki, the pure-bred Australian desert dingo. And the winner is Sandy Maliki, the pure-bred Australian desert dingo.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Marching band music and howls]

JD: That, of course, is the dingo community responding to the exciting news that one of their very own had won the World's Most Interesting Genome competition sponsored by the San Francisco biotech company Pacific Biosciences. Now, as you undoubtedly know, these five creatures: dingo, snake, exploding beetle, pink pigeon and sea slug were nominated by teams from various institutions. And those teams each explained why their chosen organism had a genome worthy of sequencing. And the Australian team, led by researchers from the University of New South Wales and to the University of Sydney, apparently made the most convincing argument. The researchers pointed out that Sandy Maliki was a quote, “Rare wild-born pure dingo.” And, as such, a creature somewhere between wild wolves and domesticated dogs. And they wrote quote, “So sequencing Sandy’s genome will help pinpoint some of the genes for temperament and behavior that underlie the transition from wild animals to perfect pets.” Now, some naysayers believe the exploding beetle was robbed, after all, according to its team's synopsis, it quote, “Explosively blasts boiling hot, noxious chemicals from its abdomen at its predators.” While Sandy's abdomen only produces cute fur. You keep your scalding poisonous butt-juice to yourself beetle. Sandy the dingo won fair and square. It's possible that the people who voted for her went with the cuddliest option, but you can't accuse them of fuzzy logic.

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April 20, 2017 full episode transcript

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