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The AIH Transcript for April 10, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: Tug of war. The Prime Minister remembers the battle of Vimy Ridge as Canada's coming-of-age moment. One historian says the reality was too brutal to be turned into a convenient patriotic myth.

JD: Lunch break. In some states, students are publicly shamed when their parents are unable to pay for a meal. But New Mexico's new law sets out to make a mockery of kids’ inability to afford lunch.

CO: Struggling to keep the faith. Dozens are killed when ISIS targets two Coptic Christian churches in Egypt on Palm Sunday. I'll speak with someone whose relatives survived the attacks.

JD: Fuzzy eco-logic. After 25 years, our guest retires from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. And on his way out he has some strong words about the dangerous climate change within the agency.

CO: Ready, willing and unlabeled. The Emmys give out awards under the categories of “actor” and “actress”. But Asia Kate Dillon, the gender non-binary star of the show Billions, is shaking things up.

JD: And… let the James began. A Swedish marketing agency issues a stark challenge: if you want a job, you're going to have to convince our staff they want to hear the latest album by bleeding British singer songwriter James Blunt. As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that worries that even the sharpest applicant will be rendered a Blunt instrument.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Vimy historian, Egypt church attacks, Asia Kate Dillon

Vimy historian

Guest: Jamie Swift

JD: The battle that gave birth to a nation. That is how the battle of Vimy Ridge is being marked. Yesterday was the 100th anniversary of the First World War bloodbath in which so many Canadians lost their lives. At the Vimy memorial in France, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau addressed soldiers, veterans and relatives of the dead.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: This monument is also symbolic of Canada's birth and our enduring commitment to peace. Friends and honored guests let us hold to the grace of the ones who stood by their friends through unimaginable hardship. Through death itself and who, in that offering, stood by their country and made their country in its beginnings. They were Canadians and they were valiant beyond measure honor then.

JD: That was the Prime Minister speaking yesterday at the Vimy memorial in France. Jamie Swift joins the Prime Minister in honoring the soldiers who fought at Vimy. But he does not buy the idea that the battle marks Canada's coming of age. Mr. Swift is the co-author of “The Vimy Trap, or How We Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Great War.” We reached Jamie swift in Kingston.

CO: Mr. Swift, what do you think when you hear the Prime Minister talk about Canada being born in the battle of Vimy Ridge?

JAMIE SWIFT: Well, I think it's an example of the notion that Canada has some sort of organic whole. And it wasn't born in 1867 — it was born in 1917. And more importantly that Canada is a product of war and I find that quite problematic. He did mention the word peace, which is very important because the Vimy Memorial, Walter Allward’s famous memorial, “Soring” is a peace memorial. Walter Allward himself said it was a sermon against the futility of war and that kind of talk has been noticeably absent in the past few days around the Vimy centenary.

CO: Was there a balance of the coverage?

JS: I don't think so really. I think it was extremely patriotic not to say that the people who were killed and injured — 10,000 people in four days — were not brave and did not do their best and did not win this tactical victory. But I think the notion of a critique of the reasons why that war was fought and the peace message that was something that those who had directly and indirectly experienced the war carried with them into the 20s, 30s and 40s that this should never happen again. At the 1936 unveiling of the monument, Canada’s first silver cross mother was there. She'd had five children killed — five boys — killed in war. Her youngest age 17 died at Vimy ridge. And the question that she asked the king in that very place was I still can't understand why our boys had to go through all that? And that questioning and that why that I think Walter Allward shared and so many others shared seems to have been airbrushed from the commemoration in favor of a much more militarized, patriotic. It's not celebration I think there was an appropriate amount of gravitas, but it's certainly going in a different direction than those who had experienced the war directly and indirectly, as I said, were thinking in its aftermath.

CO: And in general how was Vimy Ridge? How was that battle regarded by those who went through it? Who fought there and who lost there?

JS: What our book does is it explores in looking at English Canadian culture. In looking at media coverage in looking at letters the way that the people who were affected almost torturously wrung their hands and said how indescribable as the Prime Minister did. And they said again the message was a message of peace. The message was not as we heard so many comments over the weekend and interviews with high school students saying that if those soldiers hadn't been there, we wouldn't be here and that we owe our freedom to this battle, which was part of an almost criminally insane war. That you know that it was about peace and that's just historically not true.

CO: But I guess that the image of Canadians and they said that from opinions from all parts of the country came together to fight. There were four Canadian divisions all there. There were Indigenous Canadians, English, French, everyone and that the fact that they all fought together in a battle that they won is the base for this belief that this was a kind of founding moment or the founding moment of our nation. Do you dispute that?

JS: No, I think it's become symbolic of that. But when the Prime Minister says in French that it was the birth of a nation. I visited the memorial a couple of years ago two or three years ago and I looked at the names of the missing alphabetically. I looked at the “T”s. There were over 40 Tailors and there was one single Trombley. Trombley, of course, being if not the most common name in Quebec certainly one of the most common. So then you have to ask yourself well whose nation? What nation was born there? Certainly it's widely recognized that World War One nearly ripped Canada apart. Vimy, itself, gave rise to the conscription crisis of 1917, one of the great national traumas of Canadian history — of Canadian existence. So when you talk about the battle just in terms of patriotism and nation building you're really ignoring a lot of important factors that characterized the battle.

CO: We heard 10 years ago when Stephen Harper stood at the Vimy celebration of the 90th anniversary. He said there may be no place on earth that makes us feel more Canadian. What should we feel when we stand at Vimy?

JS: Well, when I went to Vimy I felt sad, I felt grief and I felt that Walter Allward’s biggest statue “Mother Canada” staring down over the fields that Mrs. Woods stared down at when she asked the king what the soldiers had to go through all that. That's what I think we should feel a sense of tragedy, a sense of never again and especially right now at a time when war drums are beating and rumblings of war are upon us. That's the kind of thought that came to me.

CO: All right you've given us a lot to think about. Mr. Swift, thank you.

JS: OK, thanks very much.

JD: Jamie Swift is the co-author of “The Vimy Trap, or How we Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Great War. It is on the shortlist for both the Shaughnessy Cohen Prize for Political Writing and the Sir John McDonald Prize for Best Book of Canadian History. We reached Mr. Swift in Kingston, Ontario. And we have more on that story on our web site —that being www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folk]

Egypt church attacks

Guest: Samuel Tadros

JD: Two separate attacks against Christians in Egypt this weekend have left an already shaken community with very little hope. Two Coptic churches one in Tanta rather and one in Alexandria were bombed during Palm Sunday mass. Dozens of people were killed, hundreds injured. ISIS has taken responsibility for the attacks. Samuel Tadros has been speaking with relatives who witnessed the Alexandria bombing. Mr. Tadros is an Egyptian Copt scholar currently working in the United States. We reached him in Washington.

CO: Mr. Tadros, what are you hearing from people in Alexandria about this attack at St. Mark's Cathedral?

SAMUEL TADROS: Well, it's obviously a very painful day for Copts. This is a community that has seen a lot of suffering. For me, in particular, my relative was there in Alexandria at the church that was bombed. He just left the church and the bomb exploded and thankfully he's unharmed, although his car windows were destroyed.

CO: Now this bomb that went off in Alexandria. Police were trying to prevent the man from getting in — the suicide bomber — before he let off his explosion. But this was just hours after there had been the other attack in the Nile delta town of Tanta. Was there any increased security given that this had already happened? Was there awareness that Copt Christians might be a target on Palm Sunday?

ST: Yes in a sense security is always there in front of Coptic churches. Recently, after the December bombing of the cathedral complex St. Peter's Church in Cairo, they’ve had more security stationed in front of every church. At some churches they have metal detectors and they usually check the IDs of people entering the church making sure that they're going there to worship. But, of course, the very fact that every church in Egypt needs a police officer and security in front of it is an indication of the size of the threat and that the whole community is under attack. It's not like mosques in Egypt or other places of worship need security guards.

CO: These attacks on the Christian churches in Egypt are not just random are they? I mean ISIS is targeting them for a reason. What is the goal? Why are Copt Christians so vulnerable to these attacks and why does ISIS target them?

ST: Well, of course, as horrific as these attacks by violent estimates are and the persecution or the problems facing Copts are. They face discriminatory policies at the hands of the government. Discrimination in laws and government appointments. Restrictions in building churches and they face exclusion and discrimination in society at large and incitement against them by Islamists as well as these attacks. Copts have special place in Islamist doctrines. Perhaps this is a reflection of the fact that they are more than 50 percent of the Christian presence in the Middle East as a whole. Perhaps it’s a reflection of the disproportionate number of Egyptians that plays an instrumental role in the formation of Islamist groups or the Islamist narrative. I mean it's a war. Why they’re targeting is for who they are. Islamic State has released a 30 minute video after the December bombing of the cathedral complex in Cairo where they collaborated. It's not about anything that individuals Copts have done. They basically call them the Worshipers of the Cross. These are by their very existence warriors against Islam. And thus every single Copt is a possible target.

CO: At the same time you mentioned how there is a great deal of discrimination against Copt Christians in Egypt. Is it the view of people there that the government of President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi is doing enough to protect Christians?

ST: Well no. But then what's the alternative? Many people recognize that the framework of discrimination has not changed after President Sisi came to power. No matter who the President of Egypt is the reality of the local governor, the local police officer these guys never change and their practice is against Copts. The President has taken some nice gestures publicly. He visits the Coptic cathedral during the Christmas mass. However, he has not changed anything in the reality. Of course, for Copts as frightened as they are, as fearful, or as critical as they might be about President Sisi’s lack of protection for them. They also recognize that they don't have that menu alternative. If the Egyptian State is to collapse because of Syria or Iraq, Libya or Yemen, their condition would be much worse. So they look around them in the neighborhood and say at least we’re not Iraq and Syria.

CO: You mentioned the bombing in Cairo of the cathedral just before Christmas of last year and two bombs yesterday. Pope Francis is supposed to be visiting in some weeks to meet with Copt Christians in Egypt. Do you think that things will change? Any chance that the pope might cancel his visit?

ST: I don't believe so. For the Egyptian regime the pope's visit is extremely welcome as the Western press has been critical of President Sisi on human rights issues on others. He welcomes the chance of having this photo op with the Holy Father. Of having a man, who not only the head of the Catholic Church, but one that is widely liked and respected in the West in general and in a sense blessing him during that visit. The pope, unlike his predecessors, has really highlighted the plight of Middle East Christians. But the Vatican also realizes the limits in attempting to deal with this issue. When the Vatican issued this statement the leading Sunni Muslim institution based in Egypt cut the dialogue with the Catholic Church. So as the pope is also attempting to increase the dialogue with the Muslim world, he will be forced to balance his criticism and condemnation of the persecution of local Christians with his interest in having this dialogue with Muslim institutions.

CO: Mr. Tadros, we will be following the developments of this story. It's a tragedy for so many people, but I thank you for speaking with us tonight.

ST: Thank you for having me.

CO: Bye bye.

ST: Bye bye.

JD: Samuel Tadros is an Egyptian Copt scholar currently working in the United States at the Hudson Institute. We reached him in Washington D.C.

[Music: Sombre]

Asia Kate Dillon

Guest: Asia Kate Dillon

JD: Asia Kate Dylan is currently being considered for an Emmy Award for playing the character Taylor Mason, star of the TV series “Billions”. Instead of celebrating however, the breakout star wrote a letter to the television academy containing some tough questions. You see Asia Kate Dillon is gender non-binary identifying as neither man nor woman. They go by the pronoun “they”. And they play the first gender non-binary character to appear on a TV series ever. However, gender non-binary is not a category the Emmys recognize. So the award show has asked the “Billions” star to pick “actor” or “actress”. We reached Asia Kate Dillon in L.A.

CO: Asia, what did you say to the television academy about its category's?

ASIA KATE DILLON: Well, when Showtime reached out to me letting me know that they were graciously going to submit me for a nomination for my work on “Billions” it came to their attention that the Academy had two categories “Best Actor” and “Best Actress”. And so Showtime came to me and said you know we know that you identify as gender non-binary, so which category would you like to be submitted for? And it's something I've thought about for a long time just in general as long as I've been alive and aware of awards ceremonies for acting. And I just have some questions. I had some questions for the Academy as to whether or not they felt that “actor” or “actress” referred to anatomical sex meaning male or female, or whether they referred to gender identity — man or woman?

CO: I guess the irony is not lost that this role that you play in “Billions” is of a gender non-binary character and yet you had to come up with a gender if you were to be submitted for an award. That must have said something that you?

AKD: Well, as it turned out, I didn't have to come up with a gender in order to be submitted. So it ended up sitting quite well actually. You know according to the academy rules, they've always stated that anyone can submit any performer can submit under either category for any reason. And that the Academy is not going to do any kind of you know anatomical or gender identity check. And so knowing that information and using the findings of other research I've done into the etymology, the origin of the words “actor” and “actress”, I decided to go with actor because it is a non-gendered, non-sexed word from the late 15 hundreds referring to performers in plays specifically. So “actor” is a word that I use given the choice between “actor” and “actress” because, as I said, it is a non-gendered non-sex word.

CO: And lots of us do that I mean the actor and actress is something that seems to be just sort of the ownership of awards ceremonies. And so at the same time you've chosen this neutral word “actor”, but you're going to be in a category we're probably just competing with men.

AKD: I will be in a category, as far as I know, with people who self-identify as men. But that doesn't mean that I know anything about you know the anatomical sex of the other people who are going to be submitted you know alongside me, which I think is really important.

CO: I just want talk a bit about this show that you're in “Billions” it is a Wall Street drama starring Paul Giamatti and Damian Lewis, but many have said that it's your character of Taylor Mason, who has really captured everybody's attention that this is the most fascinating, sympathetic character that is in the show. Why do you think people are so drawn to Taylor Mason?

AKD: I think that I think people are drawn to Taylor because Taylor is someone who is surrounded by hyper masculinity working in a morally ambiguous world. And Taylor has a very strong moral center and is not hyper-masculine. So I think that when you have someone who is sort of outside of the norm of what we've seen in that world stepping into that world and then we get to watch them navigate that world. I think that's what's exciting about Taylor's journey.

CO: You mentioned this this morally ambiguous world of hedge funds on Wall Street. The company is Axe Capital. It's very obviously very accepting of your gender identity in it. But how different do you think things are in the real world? You must know and particularly in banking and finance industries how representative is do you think?

AKD: You know I have to say I have yet to go to an actual hedge fund you know to step foot into a hedge fund. But I did have the great pleasure and opportunity to attend the opening bell ceremony at Wall Street and with other members of the “Billions” cast and the creators and show runners. All of these traders were so excited to have not only the cast of “Billions” there but me in particular a lot of people leaned over and sort of said like you're already my favorite character. And I have received tweets from self-identified white, straight, cis-gendered men who have openly said I knew nothing about non-binary gender identity. I'm a Republican, you know I'm 65 years old, but you and your character have opened my eyes. Yeah that's been extraordinarily gratifying.

CO: When you first read the script for “Billions” and this description of this character what did you think?

AKD: Well, the character breakdown among other things about sort of Taylor you know Taylor was an intern at Axe Capitol and highly intelligent. It also said Tailor female non-binary. And I had actually never come across those two words next to each other in that way. I looked up those words and I had a aha moment where I realized female referring to anatomical sex, non-binary referring to gender identity. I was assigned female at birth my gender identity is non-binary. How amazing! I was able to finally put words to feelings and thoughts that I'd had you know from a very young age. And for all of the hope and visibility that Taylor is giving to other people and that I am giving to other people now. Taylor really gave that visibility to me first.

CO:And your character is giving that to so many other people who are trying to understand their own identity. And so at what point in your own life did you realize or question that while you had an anatomy that gave you a gender that you didn't identify either as male or female?

AKD: I've felt ambiguous about my gender identity from a young age you know. In high school I started experimenting with being what we call gender nonconforming just in terms of the way I dressed or the way I cut my hair. And it wasn't until about two or three years ago that I started coming across media for performers like Taylor Mack, who used the pronoun Judy for a while in place of a gender pronoun. And I thought that was really cool. And I thought oh my gosh that person is using their autonomy in a way that I never understood that I might be able to. So I started removing pronouns in general from my sort of online bio material and just started using my name in place of that. And that felt really good and that that was sort of the beginning of my journey to ending up at using gender neutral pronouns.

CO: What a journey you must see ahead because I mean everything is gender specific isn't? I mean when it comes to sports teams and bathrooms and awards ceremonies. How difficult is it do you think it's going to be to change people's views?

AKD: I think it's important for me to say that as someone who is assigned female at birth, who is light skinned and white I think people hear my message more than they hear it from you know someone who was assigned male at birth who is a person of color and that's just where we're at. And there's still a lot of work to be done. So I have a lot of hope that people are listening to me. And I also understand how much work we still we still have to do.

CO: Do you think the Emmy Awards will change their categories, or do anything different in the future?

AKD: All I can say is that I certainly know it's going to be an ongoing conversation that I'm super thrilled to be a part of. You know whatever the possibilities are for change. I'm super excited to be a part of that conversation.

CO: Well, Asia, I wish you best of luck in these awards. I'd love to see you up on stage winning this prize. And it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

AKD: Carol, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It was a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you.

CO: Bye bye.

Asia Kate Dylan plays the role of Taylor Mason in the TV series “Billions”. We reached them in Los Angeles. For more on this story visit our web site: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Anti lunch-shaming law, James Blunt in the office

Anti lunch-shaming law

Guest: Michael Padilla

JD: Back in September, we spoke with a lunch lady in Pennsylvania. And she had quit her job after being ordered to refuse students a hot meal if their parents hadn't paid or hadn't been able to pay the lunch tab at their school. Now, the state of New Mexico has passed a first-of-its-kind piece of legislation banning so-called “lunch-shaming”. It is called the “Hunger-Free Students Bill of Rights” and it ensures that kids are served meals even if their parents haven't paid the school meal fees. State Senator Michael Padilla introduced the legislation. We reached him in Albuquerque.

CO: Senator Padilla, what does this new piece of legislation change about school lunches in your state?

MICHAEL PADILLA: Well, you know today, children are treated very differently in the lunch room, which really stigmatizes them and it may actually have a life long lasting effect. Where one kid might be served you know a really warm, wholesome, complete meal and the other child would be served a piece of bread with maybe a piece of cheese on it simply because they have some sort of debt with the lunchroom. This legislation actually is going to really re frame the focus of the school lunch program. It's going to take the focus for the child off of their stomach and place it on their studies because that's going to kind of erase that issue that they may be dealing with. It will remove the stigmatizing of these kids in terms of how they're treated you know with their peer group. And then the school's going to have their expectations reset by encouraging them through this legislation or initially requiring them to seek out other forms you know for low income and no income — some families have no income and they're homeless. And so this is just something that's actually going to move New Mexico forward. We've had years of up to 46 per cent dropout rate from K through 12 and we've got to do something to turn the ship of our economy around by producing a good workforce.

COL Now this has been referred to as “lunch-shaming” and can you give us examples of at lunch shaming does and is?

MP: Well, you know I grew up in foster homes and the All Faiths Racemic Home for Homeless Children my sisters and I. And I did you know work my way up to the state senate, I'm the majority whip there, and I can tell you from the time — I'm 44 now — and I can tell you from the time I was a child to now, I hear story after story of a child having literally a hot lunch taken out of their hands and thrown away. You know I as an example was asked I had to clean the lunchroom. I had to mop the lunchroom, put the tables up and take them down. All that still happens today and so that stigmatizing and that shaming of these children you know and really, at the end of the day, they have zero control over whether there is lunchroom debt. If you're 6-years-old you don't hold a job to be able to you know pay that lunchroom debt. And so let's take that off of the child, place the responsibility where it belongs and let's move New Mexico forward.

CO: We spoke with this cafeteria worker in the Pittsburgh area. The one very famous case where she quit her job because she couldn't face the kids anymore, she would have to take the lunch away from a child who couldn't pay for it and throw it away. Throw the hot meal in the garbage and give him or her some cheese and bread. And so that story and others that have come to national attention what effect has that had? Not just in your state, but elsewhere?

MP: Well, I you know grew up that way and you know in this day and age, in a first world country with all of the wonderful things that we have you know as United States and American citizens, I was shocked to find out that this was this was still going on. I literally have had hundreds of state legislators just like myself senators and representatives etc. assemblymen all over the country reaching out to me saying where can I get a hold of your bill? You know how did you get this pulled together what happened? And so you know it's just shocking that this is still a thing and that it's still going on. I will tell you that you know there's probably I don't know maybe nine or ten or fifteen things in the state legislature that we violently disagree on from a Republican to a Democrat — I'm a Democrat. From a Democrat to a Republican standpoint and there's probably another 900 things that we agree on. This is one of those issues that I was able to pull together a very good coalition of Democrat, Republican, etc. and we passed this in a wide bipartisan manner. And so it's still going on it's all over the country. And I'm so glad that New Mexico you know we're a first-in-the-nation state on this particular matter.

CO: And I guess the thing is that the families and the kids they pay for the lunches, right? So they're not free. So the schools then have to come up with the money themselves and they've said well it's a necessary evil because they haven't got the funds to pay for kids’ lunches. That's why they were shaming them….

MP: With my legislation that we just passed they can still collect on that on that bad debt. Nothing has changed about that. But it resets the priorities, the focus, and the attention of the school lunch program to apply for things to get these children into these programs where there may be federal subsidies or other things at the state level or whatever may be to actually fund the program within the school. So instead of spending their energy shaming a child and having two or three lunch lines or whatever you know they're going to be able to reset their expectations and their energy on putting that money into their school so that they are they're kept whole through this process.

CO: You mentioned earlier the dropout rates of kids from kindergarten through high school. Do you think that that has a lot to do with the shame of poverty this being centered out in the ways that this school lunch programs were doing?

MP: Well, I mean you know you may be shocked or surprised to hear, but you know New Mexico is 49th in terms of the and the Annie E. Casey Foundation study of child well-being. There's a lot of things that go into that study. And one of them is food security and nutrition security and all of those things. If the child coming to school and not receiving nourishment in the middle of the day then the afternoon is pretty much a waste of time. I mean you know they're thinking about their stomach. They're paying attention to that rather than their studies. And so it's my belief that you know we break these things down in tangible, real actions that we can take here and by removing that hunger in their stomach, ideally I'm expecting that child now to focus on their studies. And so I think that's going to lend itself to success. And you know and in terms of great performance in graduation and all of those things. New Mexico's poverty situation is an enormous task. And I believe that one of the critical things we can do is to produce a great workforce and one of the ways to do that is to increase our graduation rate.

CO: And just finally you said that legislators in other states have been contacting you. Do you expect to see other states follow suit?

MP: I do. I know that there is some work that's being done I believe in Texas and I want to say California, but nothing's actually been enacted. This is a first-in-the-nation step at this and I do believe that others are going to follow. I mean I've had folks reaching out to me from I would say a good half of the states already since last Thursday.

Senator Padilla, it’s good to talk to you. Thank you.

MP: Thank you very much for taking an interest in our state here.

JD: We reached New Mexico State Senator Michael Padilla in Albuquerque. And you can find out more about that new anti lunch-shaming law on our web site: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Overbooked flight

JD: He refused to give up his seat. They refused his refusal. On Sunday evening, United Airlines asked for volunteers on a flight from Chicago to Louisville to give up their seats. No one responded. And so the airline just randomly picked four people to leave the plane. One of them was not willing to go. The man, whose name we don't yet know, said he was a doctor and he needed to get back to see his patients the next day. That, apparently, was not a good enough reason for him to be allowed to stay. Because, in short order, he was removed from his seat and dragged bodily from the plane by three aviation police officers. Here's what that sounded like.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A man screams]

SPEAKER ONE: Oh my God! What are you doing?

SPEAKER TWO: Come on. Come on.

SPEAKER ONE: This is wrong. Oh my God, look at what you did to him. Oh my God!

JD: What you just heard was an excerpt from a video of a passenger being forcibly removed from a United Airlines flight on Sunday. Jade Kelley was one of the passengers on that plane. She told CNN's Brooke Baldwin what she saw.

SOUNDCLIP

JADE KELLEY: Well, as you can see from the video, it was very traumatic. I actually was sitting across the aisle from the gentleman, but one of the security officers told me and the passenger next me to move before the man was taken off the flight. So we were moved to the back of the plane, standing up and I couldn't see very well over the officers but I heard the screaming and I saw it appeared they were dragging him off flight and then we returned to our seats after that. But it was horrible. I had trouble sleeping last night and even just now hearing that video again, it gives me chills. It was just a traumatic experience and I was sobbing as the man left the plane and one of the flight attendants actually handed me some tissue because I was so upset at what had just gone down.

BROOK BALDWIN: Bless you, I don't blame you. I mean I just I don't understand how this so quickly got so physical to have a man bloodied and dragged. So they needed two people to voluntarily hop off and that became four. Connect the dots for me between somebody volunteering and somebody getting dragged off a plane?

JK: Originally we were told one passenger needed to leave flight at the gates and then we were allowed to board. And so I assumed that United had handled the situation and someone had volunteered. And then we were informed that four passengers needed to leave because United had crew that had to work coming out of Louisville on Monday morning. And so at that point, the gentleman and his wife, they were told that they had been randomly selected to leave the plane. And then the situation just very quickly escalated and when United couldn't handle it, when they lacked the leadership's to handle it, they called in the security and the man was dragged off very violently.

BB: But then even after he was dragged off, he ran back on the plane.

JK: Yes ma'am, about 10 minutes later, I'm not sure what happened, but I saw him running back on the plane. His face was bloody and he was crying out that he just needed to get home. And so it didn't appear he had any medical attention because of the blood on him. And then he was taken off the plane again, but this time it was not by force. And I’m not sure where he went after that.

JD: That was Jade Kelley, one of the passengers on that flight from Chicago to Louisville, speaking with CNN's Brooke Baldwin. After those videos were posted online, the CEO of United Airlines responded with a statement. And that statement read in part quote, “Our team is moving with a sense of urgency to work with the authorities and conduct our own detailed review of what happened. We are also reaching out to this passenger to talk directly to him and further address and resolve this situation.” Unquote. And, also, not long before we went to air tonight, one of the Chicago Aviation Department Officers who forcibly dragged the passenger off the plane was placed on leave.

[Music: Ambient]

Dateline: seafood dine and dash

JD: Dateline: Gold Coast, Australia.

[Music: Dateline theme]

JD: Along a world famous stretch of surf, rovers and residents alike flock to the award-winning Omeros Brothers to indulge in the day's freshest catch. And yesterday was no different except that one local wrapped up his waterfront dining experience as the catch of the day. Thirty-three-year-old Terry Peck, an aspiring rapper who goes by “2pec”, arrived alone and with an appetite. One large enough to down two lobster mornays, one baby octopus, twenty-one oyster shooters and numerous Coronas. But when it came time to settle his tab, which amounted to just 621 dollars, Mr. Peck chose instead to have a go at the old college favorite: the dine and dash. To which he added his own personal twist call it the “dine and splash.” Mr. Peck simply got up from his table, shot past the staff and dove straight into a sea of trouble. In this case the actual sea. He was soon followed by lifeguards, who were unable to persuade him to return to shore. Shortly after, police arrived on the scene. Whereupon two officers hopped on a jet ski and headed out to see if they couldn't bring Mr. Peck into line. Upon their approach, Mr. Peck cunningly dived under water, but eventually they did haul him in. Not apparently entirely peacefully. In addition to being charged with theft he was booked for two counts of aggravated assault against a police officer. Mr. Peck insists that the police had it all wrong. It was the restaurant and its staff who were all wet. He argues the food was overpriced and the lobster overcooked and that he had found shell in his oyster shooter. He said they should be apologizing to me for the shell and the overpriced food. He added he'd only run off because a friend of his was about to give birth on the beach. Mr. Peck is currently out on bail, but from here on out, it seems unlikely he'll be able to turn the tables or indeed the tide in his favor.

[Music: Industrial]

James Blunt office

Guest: David Borg

JD: The following is a recent job posting for a marketing firm in Sweden. Quote, “Can you convince us that half the planet is way off the mark and James Blunt’s new pop album is absolutely world class? We're looking for people with a creative streak, but also someone who has such a good seller they can convince the entire office that James Blunt's new album should be played through the speakers on repeat. David Borg is a partner at Borg and Owilli content agency, he has tasked prospective employees with this near impossible challenge. We reached Mr. Borg in Stockholm.

CO: Mr. Borg, what's your problem with James Blunt?

DAVID BORG: Oh, he's like symbolic for emptiness in music… I think maybe.

CO: How can he be symbolic for emptiness?

DB: It doesn't mean nothing — his music — it doesn't mean nothing what he writes. It doesn't stand for nothing. It's like a waste of air I think.

CO: Ouch! Is there any specific song or anything that you can point to?

DB: No, I don't think your audience wants that.

CO: OK well we will play something here's a clip from James Blunt. You can tell us how bad this is.

DB: OK.

[Music: You’re beautiful/ Pop]

DB: Stop.

CO: I can hear you in the background saying stop. You’re beautiful and what’s wrong with someone saying you’re beautiful?

DB: But the song is not about a girl he thinks is beautiful. Yeah he does but he follows a girl who married with someone else. So he's like a stalker and that's quite dark I think.

CO: Are there any other words but you're beautiful? What are some of the other lyrics in the song?

DB: Yes it's true. I saw your face in an empty place and I don't know how to do.

CO: You have memorized, you know this song by heart.

DB: I've heard it like five or six other times. It's more like Bryan Adams.

CO: Bryan Adams! Oh my gosh, you're going after all the icons!

DB: He's had like one hit. And also like a vacuum of music.

CO: Well how about ABBA?

DB: ABBA had like 15-20 hits I think.

CO: So you would support Abba. You don't include that in your list of emptiness?

BD: No, no. ABBA have some great, great songs actually.

CO: We didn't just call you up to ask you what you thought of James Blunt. You have this test — a task — for people who are applying to work at your company that they have to persuade others to do what?

DB: To convince us that James Blunt’s new record is great. And if they convince us they will get the job.

CO: Why have you set up this as the test for a prospective employee?

DB: Because it's quite impossible we think. And also that we need he or she who is like smart, funny and also creative.

CO: So you think it's impossible to sell James Blunt?

DB: It's quite impossible.

CO: What do they have to be able to do in order to convince you that they have sold James Blunt?

BD: I think the key is to focus on the person of James Bond because he is actually quite funny. And I also think that he is not liking his own music. I think he has figured out how to do music that he can earn money on. So I don't think he likes it.

CO: He's actually tweeted if you thought 2016 was bad. I'm releasing an album in 2017. But he is very, very popular.

DB: Yeah, but like here in Europe you have the alt-right movement, they are also popular, but not good. Donald Trump is also good but he's not good. So that doesn't mean anything.

CO: Well why didn't you get people to try and convince others in your firm that Donald Trump is the best thing that ever happened to the world?

DB: We already done that. We did this before the election actually. One of our colleagues is an American citizen, so we're like a test to convince him to vote on Donald Trump instead of Hillary Clinton. We found a guy who did it well, but he still voted for Hillary Clinton.

CO: So when does this begin? When do you start interviewing people and seeing if they can actually sell James Blunt to your firm?

DB: Last week we put up the ad. We were just like happy to get our article here in Sweden, but this has become worldwide. So we've got a lot of job application from England.

CO: He is from Great Britain. And now if you had to do it if you were the one applying for this job and you had to come up with an argument just give us your best pitch for why someone should listen to James Blunt?

DB: OK. James Blunt is a genius. He's just provoking the world and in any moment he will tell the world it was all a joke.

CO: That's your best pitch?

BD: I will fire myself tomorrow.

CO: Mr. Borg, it's fun to speak with you. Thank you.

DB: Thank you very much.

JD: David Borg is a partner at Borg and Owilli content agency. We reached him in Stockholm. And you can find more about his nearly impossible test on our web site: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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Part 3: Retired EPA worker, Rosa Parks home

Sound of the day: Pepsi protest

JD: As a marketing tool it didn't just fizzle. It blew up in Pepsi’s face. The soft drink giant has since pulled the ad starring Kendall Jenner in which she offers a can of the cola to a police officer at a protest after overwhelmingly negative public response to the ad. Still, a man from Portland, Oregon thought he would take a cue from that commercial and whether he did it wryly or not, it met with even less welcome as a form of protest than it did as a marketing campaign. Introducing himself as Carlos Enrique, the man, who claimed he was a former journalist was addressing city council last week during a public hearing over a new ordinance. After speaking he approached Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler with Pepsi and received this response. It is our sound of the day.

SOUNDCLIP

CARLOS ENRIQUE: My name is Carlos Enrique. I'm a former journalist for The Boston Herald So I've covered city council quite extensively. I've just recently moved here and I have to say I'm very surprised at like how there are so many people that show up to city council and just kind of like get angry at you and yell at you and stuff like that. And I'm sure that that has happened before in the past when I've covered city council, but not nearly as frequently as it has here. And it made me kind of wonder like how could someone just endure people coming and berating you every week and everyone gets mad and you say you say I'm signing the ordinance anyway. And what I realized…

TED WHEELER: I'm sorry to interrupt, but this has to be related to the ordinance.

CE: The language of resistance has not been properly translated to you. So this is for you.

TW: Not a good move. Not a good move. Thank you. Don't do that again. OK. Not a smart move. Thank you, I do appreciate it. But don't do that again. Please folks do not do that for your own safety don't do that. OK. I appreciate it. Welcome to Portland. If this were the Boston City Council that would have ended differently.

JD: That was Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler responding to a man who offered him a Pepsi last week during a city council meeting.

[Music: Bluegrass]

Retired EPA worker

Guest: Michael Cox

JD: I think it's probably a bit of an understatement to say that things have been a bit difficult lately at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. According to reports in The Washington Post, The EPA is preparing to lay off as much as a quarter of its staff and cut dozens of programs because of planned budget cuts by the Trump administration. And the new head of the EPA, Scott Pruitt, was previously one of the agency's harshest critics. He has sued the agency 14 times and last month he said he did not believe that carbon dioxide is a primary contributor to global warming. Michael Cox began working at the EPA in 1987. He retired last month and he did not mince words in a farewell letter that he wrote directly and sent directly to Mr. Pruitt. We reached Mr. Cox on Bainbridge Island, Washington.

CO: Mr. Cox, why did you write this letter to the new head of the EPA, Scott Pruitt?

MICHAEL COX: Well, Carol, I've worked at the EPA since 1987 through six administrations. This is my sixth one and I've never seen the morale of EPA staff as low as it is now. And why that concerned me is that in order to prepare to meet its mission, which is pretty simple to protect human health and the environment. I think the staff really needs to be on board. And so what I wanted to do in my letter to Administrator Pruitt was two things. One just voiced some of my thoughts on why there was such low staff morale at EPA and then second offer a few suggestions on how he might work with staff to improve morale.

CO: OK, we'll get to that in a moment. But did you write this letter — it is open letter — did you write it for Mr. Pruitt? Or did you write it for your former colleagues?

MC: I would say both. I think I wrote to Administrator Pruitt to voice some of my concerns, but also and I can't speak for them, but I what I've heard is that I’ve voiced some of the concerns of others at EPA who felt that they couldn't voice those concerns because they are currently employed by EPA.

CO: What are some of the examples of the changes you've seen in the last months before you retired?

MC: Well a couple ones that were disturbing to me and I think others let's start with climate science. The Administrator came out a number of weeks ago and indicated that he didn't think carbon dioxide from human activity was a primary contributor to climate change. Now he's modified that position a little bit, but he has also talked about many of the questions that are outstanding on climate change science. And I agree with him there are a number of questions that we need to do more research on. But what's ironic is the budget that came out from the Trump administration, which Administrator Pruitt is a part of eliminated EPA’s research program on climate change and a grant program that we had that we provided to scientists around the country. So it's ironic that if there are these outstanding questions why then are they proposing to eliminate EPA’s research on this topic. And not just EPA there’s other agencies that I think are in a similar fate.

CO: Americans knew what Mr. Trump stood for before he was elected. He had said I'm not a believer in global warming. He’s clearly a climate change skeptic and they voted for him. How much support do you think that the Environmental Protection Agency has among Americans?

MC: You know it's a good question. I hear that often and I think there are there are many that question our vision and think we've overreached. But I think there is support for EPA. And why I say that is it again I've been around I've worked in Washington D.C, I've worked in Seattle region and when I go out there are people who disagree with this. But when you really start talking about the fundamental work that we do of protecting the air so the kids don't get asthma or protecting the land so people can hunt and make sure they can recreate and the water they drink and the water the fish at. You know want to really start talking to people about that you get a lot of head nods going yeah, we agree with that. We think that is something that EPA is contributing. So you know you're right that President Trump was elected and elections have consequences. And I think at EPA I realize that. It's just the consequences that we're seeing I think are something that's disturbing to the staff at EPA and I think it's like I don't have a poll on this, but I think it's disturbing to a lot of Americans in terms of what the rollback might mean of the incredible progress we've made over many years in the EPA and making our air, land and water safer.

CO: You mentioned how many years you worked at the EPA before you left and all the different administrations who were in power. Ronald Reagan and George Bush, two eras where there was a lot of questions about science and a lot of skepticism. How different is this era?

MC: Well, you know, my observations were that the administrators of EPA when they came in I always got the impression that they believed in the mission of the EPA to protect human health and the environment. They wanted to work with staff. They realized in order to be successful that they needed to do that. And sure there were disagreements, but I never got the impression that there was an all-out attack or the notion that they're trying to dismantle EPA. I think there was honest disagreements and sometimes it may not have come out as people thought. But I never felt there was ill will towards the staff nor towards the mission of EPA.

CO: At the end of your letter you end by telling Mr. Pruitt that if he engaged with EPA staff he might be surprised to find that he shares common ground with them. Mr. Pruitt is a man who has sued the EPA 14 times. Do you think there really is that much in common?

MC: You know Carol, I start from the basis of thinking that people have good intentions and I don't doubt that Administrator Pruitt's thinks that his way to meet our mission of protecting human health and the environment is the right way. And that's why I think there is common ground. I think once he gives an opportunity to EPA scientists and engineers to tell him and help educate him on what we do and what we don't do I'm hoping as a reasonable analytical fella that he and his staff that they'll listen and they'll consider that. So I can only hope.

CO: Just finally do you think Mr. Pruitt has read your letter?

MC: You know Carol, I have no illusions. I'm a pretty realistic guy, I’ve been around a while and I don't know if he has or not. I'm hoping some of his staff have, but I haven't had any acknowledgement that that is the case.

CO: We'll leave it there. Mr. Cox, thank you for speaking with us.

MC: Thank you for the opportunity.

JD: Michael Cox is a former climate change adviser with the US EPA. He retired last month. We reached him on Bainbridge Island, Washington.

[Music: Jaz]

From Our Archives: Roof

JD: Dylann Roof pleaded guilty again today. The Charleston church shooter had already been sentenced to death after being found guilty during his federal trial. Now, the survivors and the families of his victims will not be subjected to a second state trial. Throughout the court proceedings, Dylann Roof has remained unrepentant about killing nine black parishioners at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. He didn't speak publicly today, but to the court's surprise, his grandfather, Joe Roof did.

SOUNDCLIP

JOE ROOF: What happened here I will never understand? I will go my grave not understanding what happened. Only I know that I’ve lost a grandson that I love very much. Likely today is the last time I'll ever see him. I haven't touched him since this horrible event. I’m just aching to hold him and hug him as I did when he was a tot. But we've tried to be supportive his counsel and the prosecutors and I have to say that the system, which I worked in almost 60 years and believe in, seems to have worked as it should have worked. I just want to say loudly and repeatedly and constantly we're sorry. We're just as sorry as we can be this has happened. We regret it, it’s ruined lives and I cannot put those back together.

JD: That was Dylann Roof's grandfather, lawyer Joe Roof, addressing the court today. Dylann Roof pleaded guilty to nine state murder charges thereby avoiding another trial. Back in January, right after Dylann Roof was sentenced to death. We spoke to the husband of one of his victims: Myra Thompson. Reverend Anthony Thompson is opposed to the death penalty. And here is part of his conversation with guest host Helen Mann, from our archives.

ANTHONY THOMPSON: You know there were some people just like me who do not believe in the death penalty but accepted this you know because they call it justice. Though all of us were relieved I mean really relieved. Some of the people in court were actually glad he got the death penalty. They were saying he should go to hell. You know a lot of people were very bitter and still haven't got to the forgiving stage.

HELEN MANN: Right. You know a lot of people remember his first court appearance — Dylan Roof’s first court appearance. Because some of the victim's families actually shouted out that they forgave him. That made worldwide news. A lot of people maybe couldn't get their heads around that.

AT: Well, I did it at the bond hearing. I was one of those people you know I had no intentions of even going to the bond hearing. But I went because my children wanted to go. I went with the intensions of not saying anything and I adamantly instructed them not to say anything. But when I got there, God had other intentions. I mean he literally came and told me he had something to say. And I got up and said exactly what he told me. I said I forgive you, my family forgive you, but you need to repent. You need to confess because you’re in a lot of trouble right now. But if you give your life to the one your life means the most to you going to be OK. And that’s all god said.

HM: And yet throughout this trial he appeared unrepentant. I’m wondering how hard that was to sit through there when he kept reasserting his hate and said very clearly that he had no remorse?

AT: I was in awe. It made me angry because I just couldn’t imagine after being in jail for so long he still had no remorse. No intention of saying he was sorry, but quite the opposite. Yeah, it made me angry, but I forgave him and that's it. I didn't take that back it didn't make me not want to forgive him and it didn’t make me wish I didn't forgive him. You know I still feel the same way. I was just in awe to know and just kind of wonder. How could a human being not have a conscience after being able to sit in jail for a while and hopefully think about what he did? So I thought he was like me or somebody else. But then I really saw him for who he is. He's just evil. I mean he's just evil. But I have peace because I felt that peace just as soon as I forgave him at that bond hearing and said what the Lord told me to say. My peace began then.

JD: From our archives, that was Reverend Anthony Thompson speaking to guest host Helen Mann in January. Reverend Thompson's wife, Myra Thompson, was one of the nine parishioners murdered by Dylann Roof at their Charleston North Carolina church.

[Music: Ambient]

Rosa Parks home

Guest: Ryan Mendoza

JD: It was where Rosa Parks went to seek refuge during her civil rights struggle in the 1950s. And now, after being battered by floods and break-ins. Her run-down Detroit home has a new home itself: in Germany. The house was set to be demolished until it was purchased by Ms Park's niece Rhea McCauley. Ms McCauley later teamed up with artist Ryan Mendoza to restore the house and it now sits in Mr. Mendoza's backyard in Berlin, which is where we reached him.

CO: Ryan, tell us, first of all, what Rosa Parks house looks like right now in your backyard?

RYAN MENDOZA: Well, it is a very delicate structure. The house had been covered with aluminum siding at some point. There was a fire I suppose and there was water damage and they had covered up with aluminum at some point, so that was not the original structure. So I had taken that off and I found all of the original wood planks and I'm very delicately took them apart and as best I could I transported them over to Europe and reconstructed them here. The house is actually half black and half white, which I think is telling.

CO: So just go back to how you did it? The house was in Detroit. Why did you decide you had to or wanted to move it to Berlin?

RM: Well, on the defensive the Detroit city land bank and the Mayor's office and I defend them not very readily because they actually placed it on the demolition list. But the house was in really bad condition. I mean it was dangerous. The whole building was set to fall, in fact at one point, when we're done with saving the outer façade. I got a call from one of the neighbors who had been watching the house from their porch. And, actually, part of the building had actually caved in when we weren’t there. So it was a really dangerous project, but it was at the same time tremendously fulfilling because we managed to save the memory of Rosa Parks and her legacy.

CO: Just a little background on this because people know Rosa Parks from Montgomery, Alabama where her role in the civil rights movement began. She went to Detroit to be with her brother is that right? Tell us a bit about why she went there?

RM: You know I mean I'm not a historian, but as far as I know, and from what her niece Rhea McCauley recounted. She actually was given death threats and stones were thrown through her window and she actually lost her job. And her husband at the time also lost his job. He was a barber apparently. So they didn't have any money and the church had a fundraiser and they gather together some money so that she could actually flee. So she was fleeing Montgomery, Alabama in around 1957. And where does she go? And she went to her brother and her brother took her in notwithstanding the fact that he had 13 children of his own.

CO: And that's the house she lived in with her brother and all those people. I think are 17 people living in that house, is that right?

RM: Yeah. I mean if you count if you count everyone that was there it was 17 people.

CO: Why was this so important for you? To, first of all just to save the house, and then to have to bring it all away to Berlin in order to do that?

RM: I felt kind of moral obligation. I was looking for any house in Detroit that I could save because I figured 80,000 houses are set to be demolished in Detroit and all of those childhood memories of all of these families. You know families that had lost their houses to taxes and to faulty mortgages and to basically banks schemes. And I thought 80,000 houses demolished and all those memories lost. What if I could just get one house over there back to Europe to represent the other 80,000 that were lost?

CO: How is it possible that there is nobody in the United States — no group of people who could do what you're doing in Detroit or anywhere in the U.S. What do you make of that?

RM: It doesn’t take a group of people, I proved that. You know it takes one person.

CO: But why do you think there's nobody that could do that in the States?

RM: I think that there is carelessness on the part of the institutions you know to this date. I mean this project has been announced all over the world. Not one American institution has found the courage to write me an email showing vague interest and I have to ask myself how that is? So if nobody is interested from the top down then it's normal that you're going to get Rosa Parks House appearing on the demolition list.

CO: And now you seeing Rosa Parks house in Berlin. What does that mean? Do you see any significance in her house turning up there?

RM: You know I was very moved during this the last couple of days because I had done this project not knowing really what the public response would be. And as I saw the people pouring in as I saw the hundreds of people coming in and the smiles in their faces and almost stunned look on their faces I realized that people care. So if people care then this house will eventually find a proper home.

CO: Do you have any plans to return the house to Detroit? Would you like to do that?

RM: You know my objective was to allow the world to know — let the world know that this happened. I was really waiting for a brave journalist to go and knock on the Mayor of Detroit's door and ask him what he thinks about this project because I had approached him at the very beginning asking very clearly. I asked him of the 80,000 houses that are on the demolition list. Is there one house that's worth saving? And he responded no. So I would hope you know that somebody actually knocks on his door and asking his opinion and how this happened. But beyond that you know my intent was to allow the world to know this house had been saved. And it's sort of like a house without a home. It's in a place that it shouldn't be and now it's the world to tell me what is the destiny of this house?

CO: All right. Well, we will leave it there Ryan. It's a fascinating story. I appreciate you talking to us. Thank you.

RM: You're welcome.

CO: Bye.

Ryan Mendoza is an artist who restored and indeed rebuilt Rosa Park’s old Detroit home in his backyard in Berlin, Germany. And that is where we reached him.

[Music: Ambient]

From Our Archives: underwear cat

SOUNDCLIP

We tend to dry all of our clothes outdoors. So it's easy pickings, you just go into someone’s back yard and there you go! It’s like a smorgasbord of under wear!

JD: Yes our guest did use the phrase “a smorgasbord of underpants.” We will come back to that. But before we do I should emphasize that Sarah Nathan was not talking about the way she sees her neighbor's backyard laundry lines hung with boxer shorts and bras. She was speaking about the way Brigit sees those lines, which happens to be the way Reginald sees them as well. Now that warmer weather has returned once again to the town of Folkston, Reginald is once again availing himself of the all you can grab buffet of undergarments in his neighborhood. He takes him back to his home where he sometimes displays them by hanging them on a tree. Liza Brickell says quote, “And he is constantly looking for a reward because he thinks he has been good.” It could be worse. Reginald is a cat. He could leave half-eaten small animals and birds on the welcome mat. As you can imagine however it is a problem for his owner Ms. Brickell. While Reginald keeps adding to his collection of socks, tights, braziers and underpants she keeps trying to subtract from it. She's issued a warning to people on her street. Fortunately most of them are forgiving Ms. Brickell says quote, “Some neighbors think it's funny, but it's not funny. If you have to go knock on people's doors and ask them if they've lost a bra.” Unquote. Which brings us back to Bridget and Sarah Nathan from Hamilton, New Zealand and the smorgasbord of underpants. Last March, we spoke with Ms. Nathan about her cat’s fetish for stealing socks and underwear. Brigit is more particular than Reginald however. Here is part of Carol's conversation with Ms. Nathan, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Sarah, how many pairs of underpants has Brigit brought home?

SARAH NATHAN: She has brought home close to probably 30 pairs of underpants — maybe more. I sort of stopped keeping them originally and at least 100 socks.

CO: When did you start to notice that she was doing this?

SN: She's done it before. We moved house about a year ago and the last house she brought home all sorts of things. But this time it's just one particular kind of men's underwear and you can't not notice when a pair of striking mens underpants arises in your hallway when you're living in an all-girl house.

CO: So it's always men's underwear?

SN: It is. It has been for the last two three months. Yep, I'm pretty sure the underwear is coming from the same source.

CO: So somebody is missing 30 pairs of underpants?

SN: Yeah and they happened to come forward. I actually put a flyer in my street and thinking you know clearly I'm going to get a phone call that night from someone saying Oh my goodness thank you. That's what my underpants are going, but nothing. So I put it on Facebook and then it went crazy.

CO: But is she getting the underpants from a different place than she is getting the socks is that possible?

SN: We just don't know. I mean I do think she's going to different places. I think there’s absolutely no doubt she's going to different places because every now and then something just a little bit out of the ordinary turns up.

CO: Like what?

SN: Like a child sock or a pair of child's undies. But it's very rare, so you can tell she is going to somewhere different. But generally mens, mens, mens, mens, mens.

JD: From March 21st of last year, that was part of Carol's conversation with Sarah Nathan of Hamilton, New Zealand. Ms. Nathan's cat Brigit steals underwear — mostly men's.

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April 10, 2017 episode transcript

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