Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2016

The Current Transcript for April 11, 2017

Host: Kelly Crowe

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: defibrillator]

VOICE 1: Clear.

[Sound: beeping]

VOICE 1: Again, clear. Again.

KELLY CROWE: On TV doctors routinely defy death, bringing people back from the brink in moments of triumph and drama. But real life is no Grey's Anatomy. One doctor says we have an unrealistic view of what death and dying are actually like. And she wants to change that, starting with high school students. In an hour, we're talking about bringing death ed into the classroom. Also today, when it’s the so-called cutting season in Tanzania, some girls run for their lives.

SOUNDCLIP

We walked through the bush, we climbed and slept in a tree. Suddenly we looked down and saw a lion passing, I was ready to be killed by a wild animal rather than undergo FGM and childhood marriage.

KC: Female genital mutilation is common in many villages of Tanzania. Now a local woman is trying to help girls escape the painful and potentially deadly tradition by sheltering them at a safe house. Last year more than 200 girls, some as young as 8 showed up there seeking refuge. That story in half an hour. But first, weeks of demonstrations in Caracas, Venezuela have brought the city to a standstill.

SOUNDCLIP

These people are extremely angry with the government and President Nicolas Maduro. They’re suffering shortages of the most basic goods. When they come out, they have two bags of [unintelligible] nothing more.

KC: Coming right up, I'll speak with a protester who says Venezuela is becoming increasingly unlivable, as President Nicolas Maduro tightens his grip on power. I'm Kelly Crowe sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current.

Back To Top »

Can Venezuela protests break authoritarian rule of President Maduro?

Guests: Emiliana Duarte, Javier Corrales

SOUNDCLIP

HENRIQUE CAPRILES: [Spanish speaking language] [through translator] The ban from holding public office will never have an effect. It's just to demoralize us, to take hope from the people, it’s to keep me from being a candidate, or from being President. This isn't about a candidacy, it's about Venezuela, and we are about to fight to change our country.

KELLY CROWE: When the Venezuelan government banned popular opposition leader Henrique Capriles from politics for the next 15 years. It sent thousands to the streets in protest. He's the man speaking in the clip we just heard, which came from Al Jazeera. Capriles is banned from politics, which happened Friday, means he can't challenge the current government by running in next year's presidential elections. The move highlights why for four weeks now thousands have taken to the streets on an almost daily basis, accusing President Nicolas Maduro of trying to consolidate power for himself and move the country towards a dictatorship, something Maduro's party vehemently denies. Meanwhile, Venezuela's economy remains in shambles, with widespread shortages of food and medicine. And one of the highest inflation rates in the world. And some argue that the chaos has highlighted the clash between democracy and populism. Emiliana Duarte is an activist who has been at the anti-government protests. She's also the managing editor of the website Caracas Chronicles. She is in Caracas, Venezuela. Hello.

EMILIANA DUARTE: Hi, good morning Kelly.

KC: Just tell us first of all Emiliana, what is going on in your country right now?

EMILIANA DUARTE: We have just closed out a little over a week of street protest, which started ever since the Supreme Court decided to rule that the National Assembly was effectively powerless. And a National Assembly that was chosen through popular election with over seven million votes and was opposition controlled, rendering basically this government a dictatorship, as it's co-opted all branches of power under the power of President Maduro.

KC: Tell me what it was like yesterday on the streets during the protest?

EMILIANA DUARTE: Yesterday's protests can't be even called a protest because it was repressed even before it began. Legislators, governors, acting mayors, all in the opposition have joined people on the streets in order to demonstrate peacefully and to ask the president to reinstate democracy in Venezuela. Yesterday's demonstration was slated to happen at ten in the morning, but by 10:15 National Guard were already throwing canisters of tear gas from all which ways. I was there, I got chased down by hundreds of policemen in riot gear and on their motorcycles. And even as people were fleeing the protest policemen chased them. There was reports of tear gas being thrown from the sky, reportedly from helicopters. There were reports of a hospital having to be evacuated because tear gas canisters were thrown inside the hospital and also reports of people with tear gas canisters falling on their heads. And over 200 injured so far, is the reports that we've been hearing from legislators.

KC: Now, what do the protesters want to get across?

EMILIANA DUARTE: Protesters are asking for democracy to be reinstated in Venezuela. Venezuelans voted for the last time in December 2015, and there should be elections gubernatorial and municipal elections have been scheduled to happen ever since then by law. And there was also a recall referendum, which is a mechanism that is consecrated in the Constitution for Venezuelans to exercise their will. All three of those have not happened despite them being constitutional rights of Venezuelans. Also there's gross human rights violations that have been perpetrated by the government. There's over 117 political prisoners.

KC: What do you forecast will happen over the next days and weeks?

EMILIANA DUARTE: So we're currently in Holy Week in Venezuela, which the president also called a national holiday for all public employees, I think in hopes that the protest will die down. There are talks of a giant protest being called for April 19th, which is our Independence Day. Everything seems to point to the fact that people's resolve will remain firm until then.

KC: Now, what is the day to day life like for the majority of Venezuelans?

EMILIANA DUARTE: Every morning when I come out of my building there are people fighting over the trash. People have been reduced to having to beg on the streets or scavenge for trash or wait for hours in long lines in order to find rationed goods such as bread or basic food staples such as corn flour. Even the most basic medicines are very difficult to find. People take to social media every time a loved one needs something like antibiotic or even medical supplies like cotton and other basic supplies for hospital stays. It takes over 16 minimum of salaries for an average family of four to be able to put food on the table in Venezuela. Inflation is projected to close at 4 digits at the end of this year. And a recent poll, Venezuelan's reported that 86 per cent of Venezuelans reported involuntary weight loss of averaging 16 pounds over 2016.

KC: Now, if living conditions are so bad, the president still has some support. Why is that?

EMILIANA DUARTE: Yes. Some polls put the president's support at around 20 per cent. Mind you, a lot of the president's foundations in power at this point have to do more with coercion and intimidation rather than with actual support through conviction. There are over 4 million public employees that the government is notorious for controlling, and also people have to exercise self-censorship both in the media and in their day to day jobs. So that base of support, even though it's reported in polls at around 20 per cent, is also doubtful.

KC: Now what kind of support is the opposition receiving from outside the country?

EMILIANA DUARTE: Well actually Canada was one of the countries within the organization of American states that lead for a resolution to be passed, the first of its kind on Venezuela. This resolution was passed last week urging with very strong language the Venezuelan government to return to democracy and to return to respecting the Constitution. And this was joined by an overwhelming number of nations, both in the region as well as in Europe.

KC: So what is at stake here for your country, do you think?

EMILIANA DUARTE: Survival and democracy. What we Venezuelans have known for some time now, which is that this government is a dictatorship has now become clear to the world. And images have been making the rounds of peaceful protesters who only want to take back their future, to take back their country from a small ruling elite bent on staying in power at whatever cost.

KC: Thank you Emiliana Duarte for talking with us.

EMILIANA DUARTE: Thank you very much.

KC: Emiliana Duarte is a Venezuelan activist who has been at the anti-government protests. She's also the managing editor of the website Caracas Chronicles. We reached her in Caracas. We did ask the Venezuelan embassy in Canada for comment and we did not receive a response. Many of those in the streets were staunch supporters of President Maduro's predecessor Hugo Chavez. Chavez came to power riding a wave of widespread frustration with the political establishment. He capitalized on that frustration to win the 1998 presidential election with 56 per cent of the vote. His supporters believed in the vision he laid out to redistribute oil wealth, bump up social spending and tackle corruption. That movement was named Chavismo, after him. But concerns about the erosion of democratic institutions soon began to mount, pouring in from both inside and outside the country. And today many observers warn that President Maduro is continuing along this path. Javier Corrales is a Professor of Political Science at Amherst College and the co-author of Dragon in the Tropics: Venezuela and the Legacy of Hugo Chavez. And we've reached him in Sunderland, Massachusetts. Hello.

JAVIER CORRALES: How are you Kelly?

KC: Very well, thank you. Let's start with the latest news. Why do you think the government has barred Henrique Capriles from politics for the next 15 years?

JAVIER CORRALES: Henrique Capriles has become the most important political figure. He has been able to stay alive despite mounting pressures and efforts to try to delegitimize him. But he continues to gain popularity in Venezuela and abroad. And so he is now the most serious challenger to the government. And so the president has done what he's done in the past with other political challengers, which used to ban him from engaging in politics. Which means that Capriles can't run for president in Venezuela for the next 15 years.

KC: Now, earlier this month the Supreme Court in Venezuela made a decision to take over the powers of the opposition led National Assembly. They've stepped away from that decision a little bit after that. But how concerning was the initial attempt?

JAVIER CORRALES: Well, it was a remarkable moment in which Venezuela demonstrated how far they moved away from the concept of separation of powers. The Supreme Court has been siding with the president systematically on almost everything. And prior to that decision that you mentioned, they had pretty much ruled that the National Assembly was in contempt of the law and therefore their bills were not valid. But with that particular ruling, they decided that they were going to from now on take over the responsibility of legislating. At that moment, there was crisis at home and abroad and the government needed to respond because they were accusing the government of a self-coup. In other words, a coup against democratic institutions but started from within the government. The degree of international and domestic condemnation was so high that the president said that the court was wrong in doing what it did, and instantly the court reversed its ruling. Proving once again that the court in Venezuela always side with what the president wants and therefore that there is no separation of power. So an undemocratic move in Venezuela was solved through an undemocratic move. And that's where we are now.

KC: How would you--

JAVIER CORRALES: Real proof that there is no democracy in the country.

KC: I was going to say, how would you assess the other democratic institutions in the country? How healthy would you say they are?

JAVIER CORRALES: At this point I don't think there are many signs of any democratic institutions alive or functioning properly. The electoral authorities are co-opted by the government, the ruling party is absolutely obsequious to the presidency. Most decisions are taken by a bunch of leaders in secrecy working together with the military. So there are very few instances of open autonomous spaces. There is a media blackout of sorts. Very little is left of an independent media. Most of it exists online. And so currently you also don't have elections. Things have been postponed indefinitely for a while. And for a while there's not even talk of presidential election. So things have gone really dark on the democratic front in Venezuela in the past two years.

KC: Now looking back, Hugo Chavez was a populist leader. Why was he so good at capturing the populist sentiment in the early days?

JAVIER CORRALES: There were two elements that I would say. First, he promised to take the massive windfall from Venezuela's oil exports. Venezuela is a massive oil export, selling a large amount of oil to the United States. And he promised to give it to the poor. So he had this populist side to him that produced many admirers at home and abroad. But he also had a very virulent hate speech simultaneously. A real disdain for anyone who was not part of his movement. And he would say that his opponents were not just the opposition but they were traitors to the Fatherland, they were enemies of the people because he is the representative of the people and his government is a government of the people. Therefore if you are a member of the opposition, you are by definition anti-people. And he would use incredibly nasty language to talk about his opponents. And over time, language turned into regulations and legislation. Laws and regulations were to restrict the opportunities for the opposition to compete electorally, to express its point of views, to raise money and banning candidates. So this duality, the one hand an open heart to the poor, which was mostly handed out for those who supported him. And on the other hand, this hate speech was what made him so popular. I cannot tell you Kelly, which of these two elements, sort of like his heart or his hatred was the key to his formula, maybe both. But all I can say is that both were salient features of Chavismo.

KC: Now, President Maduro often sells his government as an extension of Chavez's government. Is that tactic still working for him?

JAVIER CORRALES: It is not. What has happened is that because of the mismanagement of the economy, Venezuela is in absolute ruin. It is probably the oil state with the worst economic crisis. All oil exporting countries are suffering the result of the decline in oil prices, but none is suffering as badly as Venezuela. Proving that Venezuela really mismanaged its oil wealth when it was available. So not being able to resort to populist economic policies and to mostly engage in austerity, he has no alternative than to rely on hate speech. And what has happened is that this is no longer working. This is no longer producing the type of cheering crowd that we used to see when Chavez was the president. There is speculation that if the price of oil were to return and if there were an economic recovery that perhaps Maduro could return to a certain degree of electoral competitiveness. But for now he is facing a degree of repudiation that we haven't seen in Venezuela in decades. And so he's desperate, and the consequence is that he's turning more repressive.

KC: Now, people have, observers have said this is also a point of discussion around populism and democracy, and why the two are often at odds. Can you talk a bit about that?

JAVIER CORRALES: Yes. The scholars are conflicted about the role of populism and democracy. On the one hand, they like the fact that populism is a movement that tries to incorporate groups that have been traditionally excluded. That much is celebrated about populism. The worry comes when people begin to analyze populism in terms of its acceptance of pluralism, the extent to which populist leaders like to incorporate folks who are non-supporters. And here's where populism enters into huge political problems as a democratic movement. This lack of regard for pluralism is one of populism’s worst democratic failings. The other major democratic failing of populism is that for the most part populist leaders hate checks and balances. They dislike to negotiate with opposition parties, they don't like it when the courts rule against them, they don't like the press when the press criticizes them. And so all these institutions that exist in liberal democracies to prevent presidents from doing whatever they want are all suspect under populism. And populists work to disable them, weaken those checks and balance institutions. And this is a problem.

KC: [interposing] OK. Thank you, Javier Corrales, thank you so much. Sorry to cut you off, we're just running out of time. Javier Corrales is a Professor of Political Science at Amherst College and the co-author of Dragon in the Tropics: Venezuela and the Legacy of Hugo Chavez. We reached him in Sunderland, Massachusetts.

[Music: La Vida Bohème]

KC: Sounds from the Grammy award winning album Será by Venezuelan rock band La Vida Bohème. In 2014, Venezuelan students took to the streets in the hundreds of thousands against inflation, violence, and shortages of food and medicine. Some of the same issues still facing the country today. And the band's music grew widely popular for its message of hope. It became an unofficial soundtrack to the movement. The CBC News is next. Then, they've been called the most courageous girls in the world. In Tanzania, the practice of female genital mutilation is one that some girls don't survive. But now these girls have a safe place to escape to if they can get there. I'm Kelly Crowe sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Extro]

Back To Top »

Tanzanian safe house helps courageous girls escape female genital mutilation

Guest: Giselle Portenier

KELLY CROWE: Hello, I'm Kelly Crowe sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

KC: Still to come, even doctors who deal with death every day don't like to talk about it.

SOUNDCLIP

I think death is hard. I mean, you know, people always assume that I like to talk about death and that I'm always going to want to read every article about death because that's what I am an advocate for. And the truth is I find it hard too.

KC: Why there's a movement in favour of death ed to help high school students learn about death. But first, risking death to escape female genital mutilation.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: [Swahili speaking language] [through translator] I was scared that they might catch me on the way or that I might be killed by wild animals.

VOICE 2: I was scared. But my biggest fear was to be cut. I saw my two cousins when they were cut. One of them lived and the other died.

VOICE 3: There was an old man, he came to my home and said he wanted a cut girl to marry. Parents have no right to cut their daughters, it’s not right.

KC: These girls ran away from their homes in Tanzania during what's known as the cutting season. For them to be cut means to undergo female genital mutilation or FGM. Running away from that fate poses dangers and means leaving everything they know behind. But now the girls have a place to go, a safe house that will take them in. Giselle Portenier is a journalist and film maker who is working on a documentary about Tanzania's safe house and the girls who arrive there. When she returned from Africa, she came into our Vancouver studio and spoke with Anna Maria Tremonti. We're going to hear their conversation now, but first a warning that there is some graphic description of female genital mutilation.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: What is the cutting season?

GISELLE PORTENIER: The cutting season in Tanzania, and other countries as well, is the time when girls are mutilated. And when they go through this rite of passage that will make them into young women. And different things are done to the girls. The mildest form is basically cutting the tip of the clitoris. The most serious form involves removing all the external genitalia and then sewing it up and leaving only a pinhole for urination and menstruation. Thankfully in Tanzania it's a milder form of mutilation but it still carries with it incredible complications, the possibility of death, excessive bleeding, difficulties in childbirth and so on and so forth.

AMT: And it's a season, Giselle, it happens essentially in December, am I right?

GISELLE PORTENIER: It happens at different times of year in different places, but essentially the key factor is it happens during school holidays so that the girls have a chance to recover before going back to school. In northern Tanzania where our filming took place, it happens in December.

AMT: And so what would be happening in a village during that time?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Well, in a village it's actually at a time of happiness. There are celebrations, there is dancing, the girls get all kinds of presents. It's meant to be a very happy time and so a lot of the girls are seduced into agreeing to it and going through with it because they are told they are now going to become young women, get lots of presents and essentially get a lot of respect in their community as a result.

AMT: And of course, when you were in Tanzania you met girls who were running away from that. We have a bit of tape here. A girl named Janet who told you a harrowing story. Let's listen to her.

SOUNDCLIP

JANET: [Swahili speaking language] [through translator] In neighbourhood, mother was telling us about how she lost her daughter. Her daughter died because she lost a lot of blood after she was cut. Even if I lived I knew that if I got cut I would not be able to continue with my studies. So my friend and I decided to run away. We walked through the bush, we climbed and slept in a tree. Suddenly we looked down and saw a lion passing. It was scary. When the lion left we dropped down from the tree and my friend stepped on a thorn. She was badly hurt. I removed the thorn from her foot and we continued with our journey so that we would not be caught by our relatives. My friend's relative came to take her back home and they promised not to cut her. She was crying because she didn't want to go back home but she was forced to do so. Now I've heard that my friend was cut and was married. I was ready to be killed by a wild animal rather than undergo FGM and childhood marriage.

AMT: Giselle Portenier, what are girls like Janet risking when they try to run away?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Girls like Janet, and Janet is only 13-years-old, and some of the girls that are running away are as young as eight-years-old, and they are risking everything. They are risking their very lives. Because some of the girls, and Janet is one of them, live in areas where there are wild animals. Tanzania as you know is well known for safaris, lions, hyenas, leopards, elephants, wildebeests and so forth. Janet for example, comes from the Ngorongoro Crater Area. She had to travel many many many miles to get to the safe house. And so wild animals are a factor. They're not a huge factor because many of the girls come from areas that don't have a lot of wild animals. But the other risk that they take is just running into their relatives or members of the community who might ask them where they are going, and if they find out what they're doing will take them back home to be cut. So they're risking their lives but they're also risking more than that, because they leave everything behind. All the people that they love, their mothers, their fathers, their friends, their families and they don't really know where they're going. They don't know whether they'll ever see their families again. So I call these girls the most courageous girls in the world.

AMT: Mm. Well let's hear Janet again. This is why her family told her she would be cut.

SOUNDCLIP

JANET: [Swahili speaking language] [through translator] They said that they are preserving the culture. They say if a woman is not cut she will become a whore, she will never settle with family. I don't agree with that because there are women who are cut but they still can't settle with their family. Parents have no right to cut their daughters. It's not right. They only have the right to take them to school and help them pursue their dreams.

AMT: She talks about it's not just the fear of the cutting, it's her dreams being erased. Did you hear a lot of that?

GISELLE PORTENIER: You know, I did hear a lot of that. I really did. And the reason they feel that is because cutting is usually followed almost immediately by childhood marriage. So girls as young as 11 are getting married. You know, many girls, as many as 40 per cent of girls in Tanzania are married under the age of 18. So if they get married then that is the end of all their dreams. And the girls that we met at the safe house had many many dreams. They are the future leaders of Tanzania I'm convinced.

AMT: Another girl you met also talked about why the girls are cut. Listen to Neema.

SOUNDCLIP

NEEMA: My father said in the family there is no woman who has not been cut so I must undergo FGM. He also told me that FGM is a good thing. When my father told me about FGM I accepted it, because I witnessed my aunt receiving so many presents at her cutting ceremony. From what I see is they only want you to be mutilated and bring them cows. That's what they care about. Even if you face problems in your marriage, they won't help you because they have been given cows as dowries and you can't even go back home.

AMT: How is FGM tied in with dowries?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Well, FGM, you know, the reason it's done is for purity, tradition, a rite of passage. But what I found is that the girls are property and girls bring dowries and girls who are cut bring double the amount of dowry, and dowry is usually paid in the form of cows. And we discovered that a cut girl will bring the family 12 cows and an uncut girl will only bring six cows.

AMT: And this is a poor part of Africa, the number of cows makes a difference to a family's livelihood.

GISELLE PORTENIER: The number of cows makes a huge difference. This is a very poor part of Africa. 30 per cent of Tanzanians are living in basic needs poverty and 70 per cent of Tanzanians are still earning less than three Canadian dollars a day.

AMT: So how much is poverty an obstacle to changing this tradition?

GISELLE PORTENIER: I think poverty is a very big obstacle for sure. But also remember, it's pure economics also in a sense that there are a lot of people making money from the cutting. The cutter gets seven dollars US, about ten dollars Canadian to cut each girl. Remember what I just said is that there are people earning less than three Canadian dollars a day and a cutter gets 10 dollars a day for cutting a girl and she can cut many many girls a day. The village chief gets a cut, gets a commission from girls who are cut, tribal elders the same. So it's not really in anybody's interest to stop the cutting because there is so much money involved.

AMT: And there's also control over sexual pleasure this way I guess, huh?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Well, one of the big reasons that they say it has to continue is exactly that — sexual control. They think that an uncut girl will not be chaste, will engage in sex before marriage and extramarital sex outside of marriage. And so it's another reason why the girls have to be cut.

AMT: Well tell us about the safe house. What does it look like? Where is it?

GISELLE PORTENIER: The safe house is in northern Tanzania, in a town called Mugumu. And it's basically three buildings. It's a dorm area, a dining hall area and some office space. There is space there for 40 girls, beds for 40 girls, but this last December 241 girls arrived. So they were sleeping three, four and even five to a bed in some beds and on mattresses on the floor. An area that used to be classrooms had to be turned into a bedroom to accommodate all the girls.

AMT: And who is running this?

GISELLE PORTENIER: The woman who's running it is probably one of the most inspiring maybe the most inspiring woman I have met. An African woman who is so charismatic and so determined to make change in her community that she is, she's fascinating. She herself was mutilated at the age of 13. She fought hard against it because she had seen a good friend die when she was only nine. But her parents could not see her refusal and forced her to be cut and she nearly died as well. As a result of which, thankfully her parents did not cut her younger sisters. So Rhobi Samwelly runs the safe house and is really, they call her Mamma Rhobi. And she is kind of like a godmother, you know, the old mother in the shoe type of person with the girls. They adore her.

AMT: Well we have some tape of her, she's describing to you in this clip what she was seeing during the cutting season.

SOUNDCLIP

RHOBI SAMWELLY: In this district, I can say in every season of cutting almost like 15 girls are dying. Now the safe house is come. But in December, no happiness in December. Every child is crying and even staff we’re crying. Some are sick, some are beaten badly with their family members, it’s not a good time during December.

AMT: So Giselle, once the girls get there, what does she do for them? What do they do there?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Well, the essential role of the safe house is to provide a safe haven during the cutting season, which lasts most of December. But the idea then is to reunite the children with their parents. So a really big part of the job, and we filmed a lot of this, is for the safe house staff to return to the villages where the girls come from and to negotiate with the parents for their safe return. And this was fascinating because it's not just Rhobi Samwelly and her staff, but it's the police that go armed with guns, it's the social workers that go, and members of the local community, the local city council that go. So it's a whole team that goes and visits the parents and says to the parents your daughter is at the safe house and if you want her back we need you to sign on the dotted line, promise you will not mutilate her, promise you will not marry her off. And if you do we will come back and throw you in jail.

AMT: Oh, so that's how they would get them to make sure that they keep their promise.

GISELLE PORTENIER: That's right. That's right.

AMT: Well you met a girl there named Leticia. Let's hear a little bit of her story and what happened with her.

SOUNDCLIP

LETICIA: [Swahili speaking language] [through translator] We tried to convince our father not to have us cut but he couldn’t hear our voices. We told our father that we want to continue to studying, my father refused. He said that we must go undergo FGM so that he can get cows for our dowries and for that he will be a rich man. I have witnessed my two cousins who were cut and one of them didn't survive. They performed some traditional customs on her body then they took her to an unknown place. My dream, my dream is to be a doctor. My dream is to be a doctor because I want to help my community.

AMT: OK, that is Leticia in translation. How old is she Giselle?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Leticia is ten-years-old.

AMT: Hm. And how long had she been at the house? What was her story? How did she end up there?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Well, Leticia arrived at safe house actually now almost two years ago. So she is, and she arrived with her sister. And so her story is that her father has not agreed not to cut her if she comes home. The problem is that his own mother, the children's grandmother is the village cutter. And so it's probably unlikely that those girls would get away without being cut when they went back home because the honour of the grandmother and the family is also at stake.

AMT: How does Mamma Rhobi pay for what she does?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Well, Mamma Rhobi is funded by the Anglican Church in Tanzania, but also by a small charity in England that built the safe house, and now the Anglican Church is supporting the safe house on an operational level. And just to be clear, the safe house is open and will take in girls of any religion. And indeed in Tanzania at the safe house, there are Christians and Muslims and people who don't believe in either Christianity or Islam, pagans are there, because this in Tanzania is definitely a cultural tradition and not a religious tradition.

AMT: That's worth underlining huh, that in fact FGM is not attached to any one religion. It's practiced in many predominantly Muslim countries but it’s also practiced in a place like Ethiopia, which is predominantly Christian. There's no religious connection more than cultural.

GISELLE PORTENIER: No. And now we are discovering more and more countries where it's taking place right? It's taking place in India, it's taking place in Colombia, it's taking place in Russia.

AMT: How do the girls in the villages even know where to go? How do they hear about Mamma Rhobi?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Mamma Rhobi has an outreach program where she goes to the villages and to the schools during the regular year, school year, and she talks about FGM and the evils of FGM. And she says to the girls if you don't want to go through this you don't have to, there is a safe house. The children know that the safe house is in this little town called Mugumu and they find their way there by asking around and finding those volunteers that are in the villages and in the rural areas that can help them get to the safe house.

AMT: Well we have some more tape of Mamma Rhobi. This is a rally in one of the villages.

SOUNDCLIP

RHOBI SAMWELLY: [Swahili speaking language] [through translator] I know there are some girls being prepared to be cut. I beg you please please please do not cut them. And girls do not agree to this because times have changed. Times have changed.

[Sound: crowd of girls]

AMT: You call that a road show.

GISELLE PORTENIER: Yeah, that's what Mamma Rhobi calls it, her road show.

AMT: And so she literally goes around and lets them know that there’s another way, that there are options out there.

GISELLE PORTENIER: Absolutely. She tries to persuade the villagers, you know, through dance and role playing and all sorts of other ways. And she tries to involve the young men as well and tries to get them to promise to marry only uncut girls. And she is making some headway on that front. It was interesting, that road show that you just played, that was filmed and recorded in September. When I went back in December, and now we are in the middle of the cutting season, and because of the police crackdown this year it's a very tense time. And we went with her on another road show and it was a very very different feeling. We really got the impression that Mama Roby was not welcome, that she was trying to get them to change a way of life that they did not want to change. And I got the feeling and I asked Momma Rhobi whether her life was in danger. And she says yes, my life is in danger. And I said to her well Mamma Rhobi why do you keep doing it if your life is in danger? And she said because I have to, it's my mission, it's my passion. I have to end FGM in my community. But I could see on that day that it was not easy.

AMT: You also make the point that between going there in September and then going back in December you saw a greater police presence. What are the police trying to do?

GISELLE PORTENIER: The police are trying to stop the cutting. They themselves went out on their own version of a road show. They went on raids to rescue girls. And of course the saddest time for me during this whole filming was when we were at the police station and the police arrived with some girls from a raid and some of them had not gotten away. The police got there too late and they had been cut and we could still see the blood on their dresses and that was quite distressing. And it just made me realize, you know, how lucky those other girls are that did make it to the safe house.

AMT: Are they prosecuting?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Well, yes they are. This is the first time in this particular area, northern Tanzania, they are prosecuting. We filmed cutters being driven to the courthouse and being tried. We couldn't actually film inside the court but we could interview people around it. And one cutter and a grandmother who had paid for the cutter were sentenced to 15 years in prison.

AMT: Hm. Is there a danger that FGM will go underground because of the prosecutions?

GISELLE PORTENIER: It has already gone underground. Normally the cutting takes place during the day and there's a great ceremony and the girls are paraded in the streets but that had stopped. That was not visible anymore. They were starting to do the cutting between midnight and 2:00 AM. And the other thing that is happening is that the girls are being cut younger and younger and younger and younger. Indeed one baby died this year. She was only 17 days old, she was born on Christmas Day and she was cut seven days later and she died a few days after that.

AMT: That's extraordinary. Is there a role for the international community? Are there calls for Canada to do anything? What are you hearing when you're talking to the people who are looking to change this?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Well interestingly enough Canada is not really on this stage at all. We are not at the moment involved in any projects fighting against FGM in the developing world. I'm hoping that will change. Our current International Development Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau has spoken about Canada’s involvement and how important it is that we do get involved in doing something about FGM. Anyway, interesting enough, when I was in Tanzania, it was very funny, the girls don't arrive with many clothes. Some of them have clothes but some are completely unprepared when they run away, so they end up trading clothes. And one of our little characters one day was wearing a Justin t-shirt, it said Justin on it in letters that were about 6 inches tall. And I thought that's kind of interesting and I thought, you know, I'm going to take the opportunity of asking her what she thinks Canada should do. And admittedly I prefaced it by saying that other countries, I said Neema other countries in the world are sending money to Africa to battle against FGM, but Canada isn't doing that. Do you have a message for Prime Minister Justin? And she looked at me and took about eight to ten seconds and then she said yes I do. My message for Justin is that he should be a courageous leader and we should cooperate to end FGM.

AMT: Hm.

GISELLE PORTENIER: And it was really remarkable because she is 12-years-old Anna Maria, 12-years-old, and she's so clear in her thinking that FGM is a human rights issue, that it must stop, that we should cooperate and fight against it. And she was like a little diplomat.

AMT: Quite extraordinary. Where'd she get the Justin t-shirt?

GISELLE PORTENIER: Well, you know, it's one of those t-shirts that came from somewhere in the West, made its way to Africa, was bought at some market and they were, I saw someone else wearing it another day later, because they trade clothes because there are so few clothes. So one way to wear something different from one day to the next is just to go to your girlfriend and say could I borrow that for the day?

AMT: Well that's just a reminder that they’re just little girls huh?

GISELLE PORTENIER: They are just little girls. And we did a lot of filming of them playing because they are children and that was the fascinating thing. One minute they are just babies and they were coming around and putting their arms around me and then the next minute they were little women talking about the importance of stopping this terribly harmful cultural tradition.

AMT: Giselle Portenier, it’s important to hear what you’ve found and the people you met. Thanks for speaking with me.

GISELLE PORTENIER: Thank you Anna Maria, it's a pleasure.

KC: Giselle Portenier is a journalist and filmmaker, has been filming a documentary on Tanzania's safe house and the girls who arrive there. She joined Anna Maria Tremonti from Vancouver. Coming up in our next half hour, teens already learn sex ed in school, so why not death ed too? We'll hear from a palliative care doctor who says high school students should be taught about death and dying. I'm Kelly Crowe sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Extro]

Back To Top »

Why an ICU doctor says death ed is as essential as sex ed in high school

Guests: Dr. Jessica Zitter, Kathy Kortes-Miller, Bonnie Tompkins

KELLY CROWE: I'm Kelly Crowe sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti, you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: piano]

VOICE 1: Can you squeeze my hand?

VOICE 2: Here's the reality, we're all going to die, everyone standing in this room is going to die one day. And it's good to have a little bit of a say in how.

[Music]

VOICE 3: I want to make sure that she knows that we’ve explored all the options.

VOICE 4: It would feel like murder to pull her life support.

VOICE 5: If I had to make that decision for myself, then take me off and if I breathe on my own then that’s fine, that’s Godwill. Amen.

VOICE 6: How would you feel if you were not getting better on a breathing machine?

VOICE 7: Then I don’t want to be on a breathing machine.

VOICE 8: It’s his decision, but I don’t want to see him go.

KC: That's from the 2017 Oscar nominated documentary Extremis, about end of life in the ICU. It follows Montreal native, Dr. Jessica Zitter, who practices both critical and palliative care medicine at the Highland Hospital in Oakland, California. Being face to face with death on a daily basis has led Dr. Zitter to become an outspoken advocate for more well-informed end of life decision making for patients and their families. She's written a book titled Extreme Measures: Finding a Better Path to the End of Life. And now she's calling for the conversation to start earlier, specifically as death ed taught in high schools. It's an idea some Canadians are also calling for. To find out more, Anna Maria Tremonti began by speaking with Dr. Jessica Zitter.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Death ed in high schools, what do you mean?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: Many years ago, I taught my daughter’s classes sex ed and I was bringing in this taboo topic, and I thought over the past several years why aren't we talking about things like death? These are equally important taboo subjects that all people should be prepared for in life and high school seems like a good time to start that preparation.

AMT: And you in fact did speak to your daughter's class about death and dying later, what happened?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: Well, you know, it was an experiment. I mean, it was definitely a little bit of a risk and this was a very progressive school that was willing to try. And they were convinced that it was an important thing to bring this information to their students. And we were very pleasantly surprised. The kids were really receptive and open and interested and yes, a little surprised by some of the things that we told them. But I think that hopefully the surprise will translate into a lifetime of being more empowered to understand this important topic.

AMT: So where did you start when you were talking to this class?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: Well, we had two 45 minute segments with them. And the first 45 minute segment was used to what I would call debunk the myth of what hospitals and doctors can do for patients when they're seriously ill. And we took a clip from Grey's Anatomy that we showed it to the kids, and they all were so enthusiastic because they all love Grey's Anatomy and they think it's a great show, which it is, it's great entertainment value. But then we put it next to the 90 second trailer from Extremis, and show them the real contrast between what is real and what isn't real. And the Grey's Anatomy clip where this woman went through hours and hours of cardiopulmonary resuscitation and woke up at the end and just said ouch, and then promptly went on to fall in love with the man standing in the doorway who, you know, looked at her and they were very romantic. It's just not, it's nothing of reality. And I think these kids really needed to hear that because it was a little bit of a surprise to them.

AMT: And so you're talking to teenagers but what are you seeing in the intensive care unit that leads you to believe that people don't know enough about dying?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: Well, I think it's our culture. You know, if I had to go historical on you and talk about how we got to the place that we are, I would say it's a combination of this longstanding millennials old human desire to beat death and to cheat death and to find that fountain of youth or that miracle pill, combined with the last 100 years of technological wizardry, that this incredible beautiful arsenal of tools that we've developed that now really can work, you know, amazing, I wouldn't call them miracles but can really do some amazing things physiologically to keep bodies alive until they can get back into their lives. So this combination of this fantasy and the availability of these tools has led to this perfect storm where we're just using these tools on everybody, regardless of their, you know, realistic likelihood that that they'll improve.

AMT: So you see relatives in the ICU who just can't accept what might be happening to their loved one?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: Yes, I think, you know, very often people it's not even that they can't accept it, it’s that they assume that this flurry of activity and this, you know, continued application of new treatments means that we're actually, that there is some chance that we're going to make things better, even when we doctors may know that there isn't. So sometimes, and I would say most of the time, if you really sit down and take the time to talk to patients and families and explain the realities and the limitations of where we are and their medical situation, people are very realistic and they say oh, well OK, you know. And they want to pursue the most realistic and helpful things, they don't want to be doing things that are going to cause burden without benefit.

AMT: That sounds like you should be talking to their parents, why do you think teenagers need to be learning about this?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: Well there's several reasons I would say. One is of course we need to talk to the parents also. This is a community wide, society wide conversation that needs to start happening. But I think in some ways young people are a little bit more receptive to this, because in some ways it's a little bit less threatening. I mean, this is something that's preparing themselves for their future. It's not that they're right now sick and having, you know, impending death, they're young people who are learning, as they learn about many other things in school, about how to prepare for a life that's responsible and healthy. They're learning another tool. So I think it's less threatening. I also think it's a place where they're all, I don't want to use the word captive audience because I know that sounds negative, they're there to learn. They're there to be prepared. And it's this very unifying moment in people's lives where we can capture a large part of the population and give them these very critical tools.

AMT: Now, death is something many adults have trouble confronting. What makes you think that high schools should bring it into the curriculum?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: Well, again in our limited experience, these young people really didn't have trouble confronting it. And they went on, by the way, the second class was one where we then said OK now that we've explained this reality to you, let's go on to talk about the skills that you're going to need to really be able to live your life the way you want to live all the way through. And we taught them how to play this game called go wish, where they were asked to really list the card, there was a card game, put the cards at the top that are most important to you, preferences and values, being kept clean, having family with you, et cetera. And then put the ones at the bottom that are least important to you. And so we really ask these kids to learn these skills that were very positive and in building them up to be effective citizens and empowering and following their own needs.

AMT: You've called this a civic responsibility. What do you mean?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: I really think that like any other public health issue, this is something that for the health of our society every single person needs to be educated about this topic. And I think if we can start by unifying our education systems and getting all of our children educated, it will start becoming something where everybody understands the importance of learning about this and then setting forward their own preferences and values so that people have that information out there.

AMT: So you're talking about end of life care after a long life?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: Yes, this is important because a lot of people when they hear that we're talking to young children say well what about suicide? And what about the concerns that this might prompt, you know, interest or thoughts about suicide? And this is a very specific intervention that we're making that is about specifically teaching people how to use or think about the use of treatments and technologies in serious illness, which usually happens at the end of life.

AMT: Mm. And given that you equate this to sex ed in schools, there has been a lot of controversy around sex ed in schools. Do you think you could get parents, teachers, decision makers all on the same page in teaching death ed?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: I do. I do. I mean, I think sex ed became more and more widely accepted and really expected in the public education. Ultimately death ed, if we see translation into better outcomes, if this increased education starts to show what I expect would be an improvement in the way people die, then I think that this would, like sex ed, show, you know, with its improved outcomes have decreased, you know, sexually transmitted diseases and decreased unwanted pregnancies. With these outcomes of better deaths, I think it's going to become also very clear that this is an essential part of our high school education.

AMT: And so after those two sessions in your daughter's high school, have you gone back? Have you done more?

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: We've been getting a lot of interest from a variety of different school systems and foundations and places that might want to help us to develop a curriculum that's more robust, that could ultimately be used in any school environment.

AMT: Dr. Zitter, thanks for talking with me today and sharing your ideas.

DR. JESSICA ZITTER: So happy to do it. Thanks for having me.

AMT: Right now schools are not teaching much about death, even though it's something a lot of kids have to deal with at some point.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: kids playing basketball]

STUDENT: My grandfather, it’s just it, over the course of a few days, after everything was over, it felt like it all happened so quick. There was like no warning. It just happened. You don't know how to feel about it and you don't know how to express your feelings to someone else like that.

AMT: Well that confusion over feelings after a death in the family and finding the right words to talk about it is what our producer Mary-Catherine McIntosh heard when she spoke to high school students in Halifax.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: kids yelling and playing basketball]

STUDENT: My great grandmother recently passed away and that was pretty hard honestly, I won’t even lie. It kind of took a lot but she's in a better place and stuff.

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: Did you get to see her after she had died?

STUDENT: Yeah, yeah, I did. I got to saw her in her coffin like at her funeral, and the day of when we all went down, she was there too, so yeah. That was really hard, I won’t even lie, that was like probably one of the worst things I've ever saw because, like, to know that she's there but like doesn't understand because she's gone. But like, I think it was good that I got to see her and say my goodbyes and personal and stuff so that was good. It was good.

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: So how did you feel just to being around the body?

STUDENT: I won't lie, that kind of scared me. But at the same time it was like tempting, like I went up and I hugged her and everything because like I loved her and I still do. But it was just, you know, it was something.

AMT: My next two guests want to see conversations about death and end of life take place in Canadian schools as well. Kathy Kortes-Miller is an Assistant Professor at Lakehead University's School of Social Work and a palliative care advocate, educator and researcher. She's joining us from Thunder Bay, Ontario. Bonnie Tompkins is the Compassionate Communities national lead for Pallium Canada, a group aimed at improving the quality of hospice and palliative care services through education. She joins us from Ottawa. Hello.

BONNIE TOMPKINS: Hello.

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: Kathy Kortes-Miller, let's start with you. Kids are having these experiences. Why do you want to see Canadian schools bring death education into the classroom?

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: Well I think it's time that we take death out of the closet. It's kind of our last taboo subject. And as educators and as Canadians in general, we have no choice about whether or not we will learn about death but we have some choice about how we learn about it. And I think our education system can play an integral part in this.

AMT: Bonnie Tompkins, what is the Compassionate Communities charter, what does it say about schools?

BONNIE TOMPKINS: The point of the charter really, it talks about wanting to normalize the conversation around death, dying, loss and caregiving within schools at any age, so starting right down in the younger age groups. You know, if we're interacting with the younger students, they'll learn about death and dying and be a little bit more prepared when they may be going through it.

AMT: And how young is young?

BONNIE TOMPKINS: So for instance, I will highlight a program that's out of Montreal, the University of Quebec has created what's called Passport: Skills for Life, which was requested by public health. And they start as young as 6, 7, and then they have curriculum again completely designed for the age groups of 9 to 11. And in that curriculum they learn about death, dying, loss. They are required to go to the cemetery for instance, and see what it's like to be at a cemetery. You know, hopefully going to the funeral home and maybe even a hospice so that they have these experiences in a safe setting. And again, they’ll have that now life skill that they can use down the road.

AMT: Kathy Kortes-Miller, is there a risk of exposing young students to something they are not ready to handle?

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: I don't think there's a risk, I think we need to do it well. Our education system works to prepare students for life and death is an integral part of that, so we need to be thinking about that. And we also need to recognize that no death education is still death education. And children are constantly learning from adults, from their educators, from their teachers in terms of how to navigate some of the challenging events that they encounter in life. And we know that at any given time approximately ten to 15 per cent of students in a classroom will be actively grieving a loss or experiencing the impending death of someone close to them.

AMT: Ten to 15 per cent.

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: It's a high percent, yeah.

AMT: So they're dealing with it anyway, and you're saying they need to maybe, need to help them find ways to deal with it and communicate in a different way?

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: And to normalize it and to recognize that it's going to happen to each and every one of us and those that we love. And our school systems can help by some of the examples that Bonnie presented. And thinking about that we can integrate it at different levels. We can be reading books about dying and death and that can help us have those discussions, we can be learning about it from a biological perspective, thinking about the physiology of dying. What happens to our bodies as we change? We talk about how babies are born but what happens to us at the end of our lives as well?

AMT: Let's go back to that schoolyard in Halifax, our producer asked some students what they thought of the idea of learning about death in school. Listen to what they had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: kids playing basketball]

STUDENT 1: I'm scared of death. Don't, don’t, don’t, just no.

STUDENT 2: I'd be sad and uncomfortable.

STUDENT 3: I don't think it’ll be good for like in school because then people will like think about it more. It wouldn't be like really good for the students really.

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: Is it a topic that you can talk about with your parents?

STUDENT 3: Yeah.

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: Do you talk death?

STUDENT 3: No, I don’t talk about death.

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: You just want to talk about something else?

STUDENT 3: [chuckles]

MARY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: I know you do look uncomfortable.

STUDENT 3: I'm good, but I wouldn’t want to talk about the subject, that’s all.

STUDENT 4: One day it's going to happen but at the same time the thought of losing someone, it's like, it's hard and like for kids to discuss it, they could take the wrong way or like just weird things I guess.

AMT: Kathy Kortes-Miller, if you were in a classroom in front of the students you just heard there, what would you say to help them overcome their discomfort?

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: I'd ask them what scares them most? What are they concerned about? What questions do they have? And just to pick up on the younger age groups, we’re not born being fearful about death, we learn that from other people. And so if we’re thinking about death as a normative life event, perhaps we can mitigate some of those fears, some of that anxiety by talking about it, by learning about it, by incorporating it as a normalized part of life and living. And so by talking about what does that process look like? How might we feel at different points? And how do we offer support to our friends who are experiencing the death of a grandparent or a parent or of a friend? And we see death in different ways in our classroom. And I think it's important not only do we talk about supporting the students as the learners but also their parents, because that can often be one of the biggest roadblocks to getting this kind of education through. Because our generation, my generation, we didn't learn about this at school.

AMT: Well in fact, we have a clip of a parent that I'd like to play for you. We spoke to the parent of a 12-year-old in Vancouver Vona Gai, listen to her.

SOUNDCLIP

I would really like to know exactly what they are being taught. It also depends on what we believe in culturally. The last thing i want him to know or to think is be scared about death or disbelieve, because we're Christians, and we have certain beliefs about after life, after death. So it depends on what that's gonna teach him. We've lost a few people. The little one is still very young, but the older one, what he believes is when people die they go to a better place. Yeah and death is part of life. And if you want to go to a better place, you need to be a good person, if you want to end up there. if you're a bad person right now in this life, chances are you're not going to go to a good place. So if you want to go to a good place you have to be a good person, yeah, now.

AMT: Death is understood differently depending on religion or culture. Kathy, what do you say to the argument that it's better left to family?

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: I think spirituality is an important part of understanding dying and death, and that becomes an individualistic piece as well. But I also think that there are certain skills and knowledge pieces that we can encourage young people to develop so that it will help them to navigate the healthcare system, for example.

AMT: Bonnie Tompkins, what have you learned about death and dying through your own personal experience?

BONNIE TOMPKINS: So I was a student in university when my late partner passed away. For me, from my experience of losing my partner and falling through a lot of those cracks, you know, I think if we can come to something that's more of a lifespan approach, which I think schools plays a big piece in that, then we can help empower everyday residents to have a little bit more control over that process, whether they are on the journey themselves or they're supporting someone around them.

AMT: And when you talk about the cracks, what cracks are you talking about?

BONNIE TOMPKINS: So for instance, my late partner, he was cancer, so he was on chemo. And when his chemo was up, one day we went to the appointment and it was we can do no more for you, so I am done with you. I will switch you to a palliative care doctor. That palliative care doctor had a four month waiting list. So with that four month waiting list, we were told he had two weeks to two months, was sent home. So what we did is we were at home just him and myself. But I have to say, and this is a part of the reason why I'm so interested in this Compassionate Communities idea is because my community rallied around me, and they helped feed us and they walked our dog and they did our laundry and, you know, whatever they could do. I was still in school, he refused for me to take a leave of absence from school. So I still went to class every day and they sat with him to make sure that there was someone there to help reduce my anxiety. So I think, you know, I think the community really can have a big piece to play.

AMT: Mm. Kathy Kortes-Miller, when we’re talking about death education, how do you talk about the expectation of death? And our last guest Dr. Zitter talked about medical science can't do everything. So how do you have a conversation with students about cancer for example? Many cancers you can live with, others you can't. How would you deal with that in a school setting?

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: Well I've had to do that personally. I had cancer myself and had to talk about it with my children. A year ago Saturday actually, my son's best friend died of cancer. And so we have those conversations in our family, we talk about them openly. We let our children know that while we may have an understanding of what having cancer means, we recognize that we can't predict everything in a really timely fashion and that we also need to look to our community to support us. And part of our community is our school systems. And so we had regular conversations with the teachers of my children and to let them know what was going on and some of the experiences our children were having outside of the school that might impact them. Recognizing that death itself is not a medical event, it's a social process. And so we need to look, as Bonnie was suggesting, to our community to be able to support us. And our schools for young people, when they're spending six to seven hours there a day, that's an integral part of their social community. And so death needs to be recognized there as well.

BONNIE TOMPKINS: Mhm.

AMT: Have you encountered teachers or schools who are afraid to go there?

BONNIE TOMPKINS: Yes.

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: Of course. Yeah. And if I can tell another story about my children’s experience. In their school setting, one of the school administrators was about to be a grandparent for the very first time. And when she got the news that her daughter was pregnant, she celebrated and she celebrated in the school community and everybody was excited. And there was discussions around what would the gender of the baby be and when would the baby be born and all this kind of thing. And so when the baby was born it was celebrated and the students were so excited and they made name suggestions. And then unfortunately the baby became ill. And as it was a Catholic school, the school community prayed for the baby. The baby unfortunately died. And at that time, the principal needed to make a decision about how to talk to the children about what had happened. And she of course decided that the teachers who knew their students best could figure out how to share that information. 90 per cent of the teachers in my children's school made that decision to tell the kids. The kids went home, some of them were sad, some of them told their parents. But the challenging piece was the backlash from the parents, who said that this shouldn't have been told to my child. I don't know what to do with this. And there was all sorts of emails and phone calls to the school. What we did though was prepare a two page paper or email to the parents saying how to talk to your kids about dying and death and what to expect from them. And that seemed to really support the parents. So again, getting the parents on board is essential.

AMT: Bonnie Tompkins, how much appetite do you see for this from teachers and principals then?

BONNIE TOMPKINS: You know, I'm seeing a lot of it right, like I said, from the younger levels all the way up and into the university, seeing that there needs to be a role to play. In fact, one of the focus groups that I ran, I had a teacher who was dying and she taught a grade two class and she said I'm here because I don't know how to tell my students and I need help. So, you know, that will forever be stuck with me. So I think there is a lot of interest for sure across Canada and worldwide for some sort of school piece.

AMT: And, you know, we have seen so many stories of suicide among young people. How do you grapple with the issue of death when you do have kids in a classroom who might have been thinking or even attempted suicide?

BONNIE TOMPKINS: Hm. That's a very good question. You know, I don't have an answer for that at the moment. But, you know, again that Passport: Skills for Life program that I've just recently come across certainly, you know, at the younger ages what they're trying to instill in the students is kind of coping mechanisms to understand their emotions. And I think, you know, that is a key piece that we need to think about. Yes we want to talk about death, dying and loss but we also need to make sure that they have the skills to cope with that information. And then that will support them in any death, dying and loss situation or if they may be thinking about suicide themselves.

AMT: Kathy Kortes-Miller, do you want to speak to that?

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: I think having the discussion around what is death and what does it mean will help us understand what a child's perception of that is. And I think when it comes to suicide sometimes, depending on the age of the child, is that not all children understand the permanency of death, depending on their age. And so to think about what is it that they're hoping, if they're talking about suicide, for things to change? How might that look? What do they actually understand in terms of if they end their lives what does that mean? As all a good way to help us deepen our understanding of a young person's experience in that area.

AMT: Well we now have medically assisted dying legislation. How might that affect the appetite for these kinds of discussions to move into schools?

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: Well I think the new legislation really acknowledges that how we are dying and the landscape of that is changing in Canada. And I think this provides really good learning opportunities in the school system as well, to think about it from a legislative or a social policy piece and so to recognize some of the political discourse around that. And also for young people to have a chance to think about what might be important to them when they die? What kind of things do they think they're going to need to access? What kind of conversations do they need to have with their family members? I think this really helps to set the stage for some really important conversations, regardless of your health condition or your age.

AMT: Thank you both for your ideas. Thank you.

KATHY KORTES-MILLER: Thank you.

BONNIE TOMPKINS: Thank you.

KC: That was Anna Maria Tremonti speaking yesterday with Kathy Kortes-Miller, an Assistant Professor at Lakehead University's School of Social Work and a palliative care educator and researcher. And Bonnie Tompkins, the Compassionate Communities national lead for Pallium Canada. And earlier she was speaking with Dr. Jessica Zitter, a physician at Highland Hospital in Oakland, California and author of Extreme Measures: Finding a Better Path to the End of Life. Now over to you, do you want to see death education in schools? Let us know. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC, post on this story on Facebook or email us by clicking on contact at cbc.ca/thecurrent. That's our program for today. I'm Kelly Crowe sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti, thanks for listening to The Current.

[Music: Extro]

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

April 11, 2017 full episode transcript

More Stories Like This