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The Current Transcript for March 29, 2017

Host: Kelly Crowe

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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[Sound: Teacher and students speaking in Inuktitut language]

KELLY CROWE: Inuktitut in the classroom. It was part of the promise of Nunavut territory, but now the new government is saying it can't be done, at least not right now. And if it's not taught in all of the schools, will the language survive? Nunavut’s education minister will join our discussion on that story in half an hour. And staying in the classroom, Lisa Simpson would not be amused by some Canadian schools move to do away with letter grades.

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Grade me. Look at me. Evaluate and rank me. Ugh. I’m good, good, good and oh, so smart. Grade me.

KC: Why some schools believe letter grades are passe. That's in an hour.

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Here's the plan. We get the warhead and we hold the world ransom for one million dollars.

KC: For all we know, it might have been Dr. Evil behind the nefarious scheme this week to steal a Canadian gold coin—a one million dollar coin. Exactly how the thieves made off with the giant coin from a Berlin museum remains an international mystery, but it was a heist that proved once again the world's priceless artifacts are not as safe as you might think in their museum hideaways. That discussion is up first today. I'm Kelly Crowe sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current.

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How did thieves steal gigantic $1M Canadian gold coin from Berlin museum?

Guests: Melissa Eddy, Taylor Bayouth

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The day that it was unveiled, it caused such a sensation as the world's largest pure gold coin. The Royal Canadian Mint made the first million dollar coin in 2007 and since then we've produced four more. Currently there are five coins in existence.

KC: There may be five one million-dollar coins in existence, but only four are currently accounted for. That was Alex Reeves of the Royal Canadian Mint boasting about the gold coin nicknamed the “Big Maple Leaf”. It weighs a whopping 100 kilograms and it is 999.99 one-thousandths pure. On the website, the Mint says it created the coins “because we can.” The thieves who made off with one of them from the Berlin museum this week might say the same.

[Sound: Pink Panther theme]

KC: The circumstances behind the gold coin caper are murky, but we do know that thieves broke into the Bode Museum in Berlin where the coin was on display. They somehow lifted and escaped with the coin which weighs as much as a refrigerator and no one saw a thing. They might have used a wheelbarrow. There was probably a ladder involved. Either way, despite its face value of one million Canadian dollars, the current price of gold means it’s worth at least six million—and that's one heavy chunk of change. Melissa Eddy has been following the story from Germany. She's the New York Times Berlin correspondent and that's where we've reached her this morning. Hello.

MELISSA EDDY: Hello, Kelly.

KC: So first of all, where exactly is the Bode Museum located in Berlin?

MELISSA EDDY: The Bode museum is located in the center of the city and the district that's called Mitte which means the middle. And it sits actually on an island that is called Museum Island because it is one of several museums that sits on this relatively small piece of land, and therefore the building itself is the island. There really is only water around it and then this elevated railway track which cuts across the island directly behind the back wall of the museum.

KC: So what details do we know about how and when the coin was stolen?

MELISSA EDDY: Well, police have come up with a few more details. It's now starting to read like a good game of Cluedo. We have a ladder, a wheelbarrow and a rope. These are the pieces of evidence that they have found so far. On the first day when they discovered the break in, there was a ladder lying on the elevated road bed that the trains go along and that was their first indication that the thieves must have used it to climb up into the window that was visibly had been violently broken was how they described it. And that was about three to four metres above this railway bed. And then yesterday, they found a wheelbarrow and a rope. And so they believe what happened was the thieves got in through that window and also exited through that window with this enormous coin. And they said now they believe the coin may also be damaged because below the window, there was a large mark, sort of a dent if you will, in the railway bed.

KC: So they dropped it?

MELISSA EDDY: They dropped it or they may have just chucked it out the window because they realized they couldn't actually carry it down the ladder. So then they believe they had a wheelbarrow that they wheeled along the railway bed which an important piece of information is that between one-thirty in the morning and four o'clock in the morning, the trains do not run along this track. It's their night break. And so this was perfectly timed during that break. And then they wheeled it down along several hundred metres to where the bridge then passes over a park. There they found a rope and they believed that they made their way down and into a waiting getaway car that has indeed gotten away. And they have no further information as to the whereabouts now of the coin.

KC: So how many thieves do they think it took to pull this off?

MELISSA EDDY: At least of the actual thieves, they are thinking two, but at least two. Initially they had said there's no way this could only have been an individual because this coin is just simply so heavy. As you said, it's the weight of a refrigerator and for one person to carry it. The other thing is that when they got in through the window, the window that they entered and exited it through is in a small room that is a changing room used by security personnel ironically enough. But they had to make their way through the museum then to the location where the coin was exhibited under bulletproof glass.

KC: Well, what about all those electronic beams and things we see in the movies? Wasn’t there an alarm? No alarm went off?

MELISSA EDDY: Police and the museum are not saying. We don't know if police were alerted because an alarm went off or if a security person arrived in their changing room and saw the window was broken. They have not given any indication right now because Berlin has 19 museums that are part of the Prussian Cultural Heritage Foundation which runs the Bode Museum where this coin was exhibited. And they of course now are all on high alert and are really quite concerned that their security is not up to standard, although they do have technical security and all. But in this case it did not seem to be working.

KC: What kind of security was in place? This is the middle of the night, right?

MELISSA EDDY: It is the middle of the night. The coin was kept behind bullet proof glass which was shattered. So they believe the thieves had heavy equipment with them in order first to break through the window and shatter the glass and from the outside of the museum, we can see that there are surveillance cameras that cover sort of the ground floor in terms of what their field of view would be. But the window is higher up and I was unable to see at any point that there were cameras covering that level or the level of the railway tracks.

KC: So do we know who owns the coin. Because the museum doesn't actually own it.

MELISSA EDDY: No. The coin is on loan from a real estate investor who the German media have identified as being from Dusseldorf and his name is Boris Fuchsmann. But I don't know anything more about him. He acquired the coin at some point and then gave it to the museum for display.

KC: So do you think he'll ever see it again?

MELISSA EDDY: At this point when you were saying you know there's only five, we may really indeed be down to four. What authorities are concerned about is obviously you cannot walk into a shop and try to pawn this off because it's immediately recognizable. The fear then is that it would be melted down and the gold would be sold because the market value is so high. Also since the coin would probably be damaged from this fall they believe it took, its value to any collector would then thereby be lessened.

KC: Okay. Well, Melissa Eddy, it's quite a story. Thanks very much for telling us.

MELISSA EDDY: Thank you, Kelly.

KC: Melissa Eddy is the New York Times reporter for Berlin.

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VOICE 1: The theft of Edvard Munch's “The Scream” this week—one of the most recognizable paintings in the world—was only the latest in a series of high profile heists.

VOICE 2: Two of Munch's masterpieces stolen by masked gunmen so clumsy they dropped the paintings twice as they made their getaway.

VOICE 3: Five works of art with a combined value of around 100 million euros have been stolen from the modern art museum of Paris.

VOICE 4: It's been 26 years now since the brazen theft from Boston's Gardner Museum. Among the stolen pieces: three Rembrandt valued at no less than a half billion dollars, but in reality—priceless.

KC: Well, as long as art hangs in museums, thieves will continue to plot and sometimes succeed. The theft of the Big Maple Leaf from the Bode Museum seems like something out of a Hollywood heist movie. But just how easy is it to knock over a museum? Taylor Bayouth has done a lot of thinking about that and he has some ideas. He's the author of How to steal the Mona Lisa and Six Other World Famous Treasures and Taylor Bayouth joins me from Los Angeles. Hello.

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: Kelly, how are you doing?

KC: Very well, thanks. Thanks for being here. What do you think of the heist at the Bode Museum?

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: Oh, it's brilliant. I mean you know a lot of times we underestimate how much security we really need for or something like this coin which no one would have thought anyone would try to steal. It’s so heavy.

KC: So do you think anyone will ever see it again?

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: Oh, of course not. No, that's gone. I think the last person you were talking to had it right. I think that's going to be melted down and probably sold in bullion.

KC: Now the thieves apparently used a rope, a fold out ladder, a wheelbarrow. Is that not kind of old school when it comes to stealing treasures from museums?

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: You know that's really the way it's done. It's really not how you see it in Hollywood films where they are geared up with the highest grade equipment and rappelling from the ceiling and that sort of thing. That just doesn’t happen. Really a ladder, a wheelbarrow, duct tape—these are your tools of the trade for the thieves.

KC: Don’t we have anything new fancy high tech tools that we could use these days?

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: You mean to get into a museum?

KC: Yeah.

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: Well, I mean I think probably the most high-tech piece of equipment you’d see is a water cooled drill to get through a really thick pane of glass or something like that. But again, these museums are largely funded by donations and government state money, that sort of thing, so they really don't have the kind of budget to put in place a security system that you'd need a lot of tools and equipment to really break in. It's a lot easier than breaking into a Las Vegas casino.

KC: Or a bank, I think you said. A museum would be better than a bank if you're thinking of breaking in to something.

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: Yeah. I mean you know on the same day that I read this story, someone was gunned down after having robbed a bank—$1,300 in his backpack. So you know why rob a bank when you can steal a coin?

KC: You have given this a strange amount of thought, I have to say. What are the six world famous treasures that you have decided could be stolen?

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: These weren't necessarily chosen at random, but I go into depth on the Hope Diamond, the Mona Lisa. There's a really rare fossil—one of the first real fossils we found—called the Archaeopteryx Lithographica. And then you know the big one that everyone likes to talk about is Rodin’s “The Thinker”, which obviously shows a similarity in this case where it weighs a lot and is really fairly easy to steal. I mean it's just sitting right there in the courtyard of that museum. And also the golden death masks of King Tut and the Codex Leicester which is a private journal of Leonardo da Vinci.

KC: Now not that we're encouraging anybody to steal any of these artifacts, but how would you steal “The Thinker”? It’s heavy.

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: Yeah, “The Thinker” is pretty heavy. It's about 1,800 pounds. The hard part about that heist is really getting it off its base. It's secured to a base by 12 of these bolts and those bolts need to be basically torn off using something called a detonation cord.

KC: So you blow them up.

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: Once those bolts are no longer there, it can really just be airlifted using not even a large helicopter. A small helicopter could carry that weight with a tow line.

KC: But you need a helicopter.

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: You do need to steal a helicopter.

KC: And what about the guy on the ground that blew up the bolts? What happens to him?

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: So that’s a two-man job and he can either try to find his way out the front entrance which is probably dangerous or if he wants to, he can just grab right onto “The Thinker” and just hitch a ride and just let the helicopter pilot take them both right out of the museum.

KC: I want to play you a bit of a documentary from the Smithsonian looking at a very famous art heist that took place in 1911 by an art thief named Vincenzo Peruggia.

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Peruggia simply waited for a Monday when the Louvre was closed to the public, then entered with all the other workers. He went to the Salon Carre. The guard was outside taking a cigarette break. Peruggia took the Mona Lisa off the wall and carried it to a service staircase where he took apart the frame he’d helped to build. He tried to get out a locked door by taking the door knob off, but it didn't work. So he turned around, walked back through the Louvre and left through the same door he'd come in.

KC: So Vincenzo Peruggia did steal the Mona Lisa. It was gone until 1913 when he was caught and the painting was returned to the Louvre. So Taylor Bayouth, surely the museum has learned its lesson. Wouldn't security around this most famous painting stop any potential thieves?

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: Not at all. The security at the Louvre is definitely a lot different. You're really looking at a modern security system as opposed to the early 1900s. But you know at the end of the day, again there really isn't the kind of budget to really you know cover that much territory. So you know a museum like the Louvre for instance, that's about 10 to 100 times larger than your typical Las Vegas casino. So you really have to look at sincerity from a budget per square foot perspective and when you look at it like that, then you're really talking about spreading your resources thin. They do have cameras. They do have motion sensors but they don't do thermal detection or anything really fancy like that. There's no laser nets. At the end of the day to penetrate the Louvre in today's security, you really just need to look at the personnel and figure out how to get around a limited skeleton crew at night.

KC: So now you've got the Mona Lisa in your basement. How do you get rid of it?

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: That’s a really good question. I get asked that a lot. I mean it really depends on what it is. And for something like this coin that was stolen, that's really difficult to handle. So I can't imagine they're going to sort of barter with the museum or the owner or the insurance companies. Something like the Mona Lisa that's lightweight and easy to get around, ultimately art like that, you'll find ends up in museums that they were stolen from. And people wonder why and it's very simple. You know the way this typically goes down is you have a thief who steals some sort of prized artifact, then makes contact with the insurer of that piece and it sounds crazy, but sets up a meet up. And it really does go down like that, where two people are meeting up and there's exchange for a piece of information on where they can find the artifact and a briefcase with unmarked bills.

KC: So they simply buy it back.

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: Exactly.

KC: Well, Taylor, this has been fascinating. Thank you so much for talking with me.

TAYLOR BAYOUTH: No problem, Kelly.

KC: Taylor Bayouth is the author of How to Steal the Mona Lisa and Six Other World Famous Treasures. He was in Los Angeles. I'm Kelly Crowe sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. So let's take a minute now to get some of your feedback from yesterday's show when we heard all about the so-called morality pills. Scientific debate has been raging over the ethics of developing a pill that could improve morality. It's linked to research showing that some widely prescribed drugs have been found to amplify characteristics such as empathy self-control and increased trust even an improvement in attitudes towards people of other races.

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So a morality pill is a chemical compound that you can take which will affect the chemistry in your brain so as to change your social and moral attitudes and behaviour. There are a number of drugs that are used for common conditions like depression and Parkinson's disease that do have these effect, that when given to healthy volunteers will change moral behaviour. So they’re with us.

KC: That was freelance science journalist Dan Jones. And after that segment aired, we heard from many of you. Luke Woodyard in Montreal writes: “It is morality that is the essence of the all dilemmas we as individuals and as a species face. As individuals we are all prone to making selfish, greedy, or just plain stupid decisions. But as a society, there is no greater potential for harm than when we feel we are morally correct. Christopher Taylor in Port Coquitlam, BC had a different perspective. He writes: “Morality can be seen as a personal strength, as in the term, "moral fortitude." The use of technology to "support" that strength would amount to applying a splint that would result in an atrophy of the very quality we are trying to enhance. Tamara Robertson in Toronto shares: “The fact that taking a moral pill could even be considered an option points to the deficits in our current society. Deep systemic problems in how we have structured our society have resulted in a culture which is banal enough to consider this a solution. It treats the symptom and not the cause.” And finally, Ron Bourdon in Cornwall, Prince Edward Island emails: “As we do with fluoride, would it be best to add a 'moral enhancement' chemical to the water supply? Or might it be best to ingest it like a male enhancement pill, perhaps half an hour before the act of considering profound moral questions? We can surely place our moral trust in government. They would never hurt us.” Well, now we want to hear from you. Does the idea of a morality pill appeal to you? Let us know. Tweet us @thecurrentCBC, post this story on Facebook or e-mail us by clicking on contact at www.cbc.ca/thecurrent. The CBC News is next, then strengthening communities by strengthening language and culture. The case for making sure Inuktitut is taught in Nunavut schools. I'm Kelly Crowe and you're listening to The Current.

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Nunavut's delay of bilingual education a threat to Inuit language, says critic

Guests: Sandra Inutiq, Paul Quassa, Stephanie Roy

KC: Hello. I'm Kelly Crowe and you're listening to The Current.

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KC: Still to come, Yukon is just the latest Canadian jurisdiction to look at getting rid of letter grades in its schools. Advocates say ditching As, Bs and Cs on report cards actually spurs students on to achieve their potential. But not everyone's an advocate. We'll hear the pluses and minuses of it all in about half an hour from now. But first, adding something important to the curriculum in Nunavut schools.

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[Sound: Teacher and students speaking Inuktitut language]

KC: Some kindergarten and grade one students in Iqaluit, Nunavut learning the Inuktitut language. It's heartening to hear young voices speaking the Indigenous language at a time when fewer and fewer people do in the north. And right now, children in many Nunavut communities receive a bilingual education in Inuktitut and English up to grade three. But plans to expand bilingual learning all the way up to grade 12 may be in jeopardy. Nunavut’s government had committed to having bilingual schooling in place by the year 2019. But now it says it needs more time—10 more years—just to roll out bilingual learning up to grade nine. Sandra Inutiq is the former languages commissioner for Nunavut. She's now a senior associate with Tides Canada, a charity focused on the environment, social equity and economic prosperity. We've reached her in Iqaluit. Hello.

SANDRA INUTIQ: Hello.

KC: So first of all, why is bilingual education important for Nunavut students?

SANDRA INUTIQ: Well, it was the reason why Nunavut was created. Nunavut was created to protect cultural and linguistic rights after generations of assimilation policies of trying to basically wipe out the language and the culture. And it's also very much tied to our identity. And when you're dealing with a society that is in the middle of an identity crisis, the language piece is such an important part of that and the education piece in terms of reclaiming our culture and our sense of Inuitness and in my mind for these reasons in terms of fostering healthy, self-confident young people with a sense of worth, the language and a strong sense of identity in being an Inuk is so important.

KC: Now how much Inuit language education do students get right now?

SANDRA INUTIQ: So right now according to the last office of the languages commissioner's report, there are 11 out of 25 communities that are delivering the Inuit language from kindergarten to grade three. So in effect, we don't have a bilingual education. What we have is an education system that's Anglocentric and you have in some communities an introduction and then it completely switches over to English which actually some studies in northern Quebec and Nunavut have concluded it actually damages children's ability to learn either language well. And you really start to see the effects of the damage in later grades when students start to struggle in school and probably this adds to our very high dropout rates in school.

KC: Now the territorial government says the problem is they don't have the teachers or the resources to deliver fully bilingual education by 2019. What do you say to that?

SANDRA INUTIQ: The government has the resources to develop and implement a plan to train teachers, whether it's through the teacher education program or to try and think of creative ways to have more Inuit teachers because we have teachers that don't necessarily have teacher education training but would be excellent teachers. And we have a pool of just under, I believe, a thousand substitute teachers in our communities. So there's obviously an interest or a pool of potential teachers and the government just hasn't done a thing in the last two terms to train more teachers, to have more material or develop the curriculum. What was supposed to happen was that when the Education Act was enacted in 2008, there's supposed to be an incremental increase in each grade every year in delivering bilingual education and that has not happened. So really there has not been any political will to change or to commit to fully implementing the Education Act and now the government is saying we don't have the resources including teachers or the materials when they have done nothing to improve those situations.

KC: Sandra, how common are the Inuit languages in the daily lives of Nunavut people?

SANDRA INUTIQ: I should mention that in 2008 when the Education Act was enacted, there were also two language acts. So what these three pieces of legislation were supposed to do was to ensure that the Inuit language is predominant in our communities. The Inuit language Protection Act would ensure that Inuit have the right to work in the Inuit language if they work for the public service; that the private sector organizations would have to be providing services in the Inuit language. There's ways for media to exist in the Inuit language.

KC: So is all of that happening?

SANDRA INUTIQ: No, because part of it has been those coming into force dates were at the hands of cabinet. So that has been part of the lack of political will. So what we're doing in effect is assisting the erosion of the language. Between 1996 and 2006, there was a decline in the use of the Inuit language in the home. So it dropped from 76 per cent in 1996 to 61 per cent in 2001. So what the acts were supposed to do was to immerse people—including children in the language—so that the language erosion starts to reverse. But to date, this has not happened.

KC: In the community right now, can you give us a sense of how often you would hear the local languages? Would people use it in commerce or going to the store, talking to neighbours? I mean how about you in your own home? What do you speak?

SANDRA INUTIQ: So I think it's different for each community and in my home we're a bilingual home. My husband is from Scotland. But one of the things that I struggle with is if you're hearing English all day, you'll speak English as an assimilated person and we end up valuing the dominant language and revert to it as soon as there's a hint of it. So we really need those pieces of the education system to be strong in our language.

KC: Just finally, Sandra, what are you worried will be lost specifically without the language?

SANDRA INUTIQ: Our world view and the ingenuity that involves having thrived in our climate and environment and the stories, the richness of our stories, our value systems, our laws, our childrearing—everything that really defines who we are. There's so much that is not being transmitted to our children right now that by having a substandard Inuktitut education system.

KC: Is there something you can think of that you could only say in Inuktitut that you can't say any other way?

SANDRA INUTIQ: One thing that immediately comes to mind is our way of adoring our children. We all have little chance that we create for each child and this is called [alternate language]. So when we look a child, it's to acknowledge their uniqueness and our connection and our love for this child. And the response when they're little is [alternate language], is when they're happy and responding to our adoration. And it's so intimate and that's just one tiny little example of the uniqueness of our language and our world.

KC: Thank you very much for talking with me.

SANDRA INUTIQ: Thank you.

KC: Sandra Inutiq is the former languages commissioner for Nunavut. She's now a senior associate with Tides Canada, a charity focused on the environment, social equity and economic prosperity. She was in Iqaluit. Before any decision is officially taken to delay the rollout of Inuktitut education in Nunavut, the issue will head to a committee. And right now Nunavut’s Education Minister Paul Quassa joins me from Iqaluit to explain the government's position. Paul Quassa, hello.

PAUL QUASSA: Hello.

KC: I just want to know, first of all, why your government wants to delay implementing the rollout of the language education.

PAUL QUASSA: I don't think it is a matter of delaying anything at all because we have been delivering bilingual education since 2008 and that certainly will continue.

KC: I guess the delay question is in moving it beyond grade three to fulfill the goal of making it available to all students up to grade 12.

PAUL QUASSA: Okay. Yes. Well again, from K or three as you probably know, we are already fully delivering a bilingual education from kindergarten to three. I think it's important to note that you know because we have important issues to deal with prior to delivering fully bilingual education from K to 12 which is capacity and resources and certainly this is something that the department and I have been focusing on in ensuring that we have enough capacity and resources to be able to deliver that right for our Inuit students. And certainly I would know it the best because I'm the one who signed the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement and I know what that right is. So I think it's very important to note that we want to ensure that we are following and implementing that right, as we should within our educational system.

KC: So now you're looking at a date of 2029 for the language to be taught up to grade nine. Is that correct?

PAUL QUASSA: That is correct. But that is not to say that we're not delivering Inuktitut programming or Inuktitut language arts in all our schools. We certainly are doing that. We have Inuktitut right now as we speak from K to 12. And I cannot really understand why—

KC: But that’s not bilingual. That’s not a bilingual course. Is that the distinction?

PAUL QUASSA: It is. We do deliver bilingual education but we're not delivering it as much as we want to.

KC: Now if the problem is lack of resources, lack of teachers, how will you make up that shortfall by 2029 if you couldn't do it by 2019?

PAUL QUASSA: Well, right now we're now delivering eight community teacher education programs in eight of our communities. We have another three communities that are interested in it and we will be delivering community teacher education program to three other communities in Nunavut. So in total, just last year up to now, we had about 83 teacher education program students that we deliver outside of the main centres in smaller communities. And this is what we're focusing on. We're putting our resources into delivering bilingual teachers. And in fact, we are reviewing the present teacher education programs to ensure that our teachers that are coming out from these programs are truly bilingual and are able to deliver bilingual education in our system.

KC: Just to sum up, Paul Quassa, can you describe how important the language is even in your own experience, about teaching children the Indigenous language?

PAUL QUASSA: I certainly think it is so very important. I'm one of the residential school survivors. I'm one of the ones that had experience when we were told not to speak our language and we were given harsh treatment if we did. And I certainly know that and I've been there and certainly this is something that I fight very hard, tooth and nail as a minister because I fully understand and I fully acknowledge that Inuktitut is not going to die. It's not going to be a dying language. Our language is very well spoken in I’d say, about 60, 70 per cent of our communities. And I go to their schools and Inuktitut is all over and I feel so proud when I see such young children, our students speaking fluently in Inuktitut. And that just makes me want to do a lot more because language is so vitally important.

KC: Then how do you respond to criticism from people like Sandra Inutiq who is blaming a lack of political will for not moving and hitting this language target?

PAUL QUASSA: You know I fully cannot understand that because it is not dying. I believe you know we are trying our best. We know we have lots of work to do and certainly you know there's a lot more new funding that are available to ensure that you know we are delivering Inuktitut speaking teachers that are bilingual. We want to ensure that you know we are putting those teacher education students into our high schools to enhance and give our high school students an opportunity to maybe desire to become a teacher.

KC: But do you share the disappointment? Do you share the disappointment that the 2019 target is not going to be met?

PAUL QUASSA: No, I believe you know as a government, we have to ensure that we're following our acts and with the 2008 one, I don't think we were going to be able to deliver that act as it implies.

KC: So was that too optimistic back in 2008? Was that too optimistic back in 2008?

PAUL QUASSA: I think it had very good intentions but at the end of the day, you know we cannot force our population to become teachers. “You have to become a teacher.” We cannot force them.

KC: Okay. Paul Quassa, thank you very much.

PAUL QUASSA: Thank you very much too.

KC: Paul Quassa is Nunavut’s education minister. He was in Iqaluit. Of course Indigenous languages are under threat right across the country. Last week's federal budget from the Liberal government did include funds to address the issue—$90 billion in new money for Indigenous languages and cultures. Stephanie Roy is already hard at work preserving language and culture on Manitoulin Island in Ontario. She is the executive director of the Kenjgewin Teg Educational Institute and we've reached her on Manitoulin Island. Hello.

STEPHANIE ROY: Hello there.

KC: So what do you think of the situation in Nunavut?

STEPHANIE ROY: Well, it's a step in the right direction when they're looking at protecting their language. Part of the challenge and part of the learning in this process is being able to have the teeth behind the act itself and how important the implementation model is going to be to ensure the continuity of language.

KC: Now what kinds of threats are Indigenous languages facing across the country?

STEPHANIE ROY: For Indigenous peoples right across Canada, I think one of the most pressing issues has been being able to look at the state of languages. The state of languages varies from being safe to vulnerable, critically endangered right through to extinction. These are real states of our languages and what we as Indigenous peoples want to make sure is that our languages continue and that we're able to continue that intergenerational transmission of our languages.

KC: Some have vanished altogether.

STEPHANIE ROY: Yeah. Every decade we lose languages and right now when we look at many of the languages right across the country, many of those languages have 200 or less speakers. If we're not going to look at aggressive efforts to save those languages, they are going to become extinct in our lifetime.

KC: Now your school helps train adults who are looking to learn Indigenous languages. Why are they coming back to school?

STEPHANIE ROY: One of the important pieces in helping students return back specifically for language training is their interest in learning about our language, our culture, being able to learn in a culturally safe environment, and it's about the importance of giving back to our communities and being able to contribute to the community wellness and improve our social and educational outcomes that we want for all of our community members.

KC: Now what about you? Why have you dedicated yourself to this?

STEPHANIE ROY: Part of the impetus is realizing that language and culture is so important and it's important for three fundamental reasons. And we heard the first speaker speak directly to the issue of identity. Identity is really the core of who we are. It keeps us grounded. It directly relates to our self-esteem try it and when we look at identity we also know that identity is directly correlated to academic achievement. When we have a strong identity, we have pride, we have confidence and we're able to do well academically. What that leads to is also community wellness and that cultural continuity in our communities is so important. Another important reason is to recognize that language gives us is a deeply rooted knowledge and with the loss of a language, it means that language will be irrecoverable. And when a language is lost, the knowledge is lost without language within our territories and our regions. Our language is tied to the land. It's tied to the environment. It's tied to ensuring that we are able to have environmentally sustainable practices and being able to have that knowledge of what Western education today calls science. Lastly, it's about the respect and diversity and the social justice you know Canada prides itself on being a diverse country, a multicultural country and a part of that is having Indigenous people a part of that culture and ensuring that by having Indigenous people a part of the fabric of our country includes having our languages and culture.

KC: We saw in last week's federal budget that the Liberal government is reaffirming its commitment to an Indigenous languages act. How helpful would that be in your view?

STEPHANIE ROY: I think it's certainly a positive focus on lifelong learning. I think it's a step forward in the right direction. I think it further supports the truth and reconciliation commission call to action. So I definitely think that it is in support of that.

KC: Do you think it will help the budget also dedicated some funding to supporting Indigenous languages and culture? Are you optimistic about these programs?

STEPHANIE ROY: I think it's a step in the right direction. I think what's going to be important is that it recognises that it's a starting point and I think the question needs to be is it going to help languages across the country move from a state of being vulnerable and critically endangered through to a long-term goal of making sure the languages are safe and deemed safe from becoming extinct. So I think it's a start, but I think there's going to have to be a tremendous amount of work done and specifically stating what those target goals are going to be, just like we heard the previous speaker Paul talk about in terms of what those goals are and how we're going to do an implementation plan to support making sure that our languages continue.

KC: Okay. Stephanie Roy, thank you very much for joining me.

STEPHANIE ROY: Thank you for having me.

KC: Bye-bye.

STEPHANIE ROY: Bye.

KC: Stephanie Roy is the executive director of the Kenjgewin Teg Educational Institute, a lifelong learning institute that teaches both children and adults in languages and culture. She was on Manitoulin Island in Ontario. If you are Indigenous, do you speak your language? Do you wish you did? And if you're not, do you think the rest of Canada should be subsidizing efforts to protect Indigenous languages? Let us know what you think. Tweet us @thecurrentCBC, visit The Current on Facebook and post your thoughts there or you can e-mail us. Go to our website at www.cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link.

[Music: Sting]

KC: Coming up next—if you were an A student, you might be sorry to see the letter grades go. If not, well, we're checking out the latest trend in Canadian elementary schools saying goodbye to As, Bs, Cs and Ds and worse. That's after the break. I'm Kelly Crowe and you’re listening to The Current.

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ENCORE: Why some schools say letter grade report cards fail students

Guests: Julie Cornell, Michael Zwaagstra, Sandra Mathison

KC: Hello. I’m Kelly Crowe and this is the The Current.

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[Sound: Child singing the alphabet song]

KC: Well, A, B, C, D and F have long been the benchmarks in school from the earliest years right through university. Those letter grades have rewarded, frustrated, even defined students for generations, but the time could be coming when those letter grades are a thing of the past. This month, the Yukon’s education department said it would move to drop letter grades from elementary school report cards. It follows similar moves in British Columbia where the Sea to Sky school district north of Vancouver is piloting the idea, scrapping letter grades from grades four through nine. It's a relatively new teaching philosophy that says grades aren't a necessary part of elementary school education and might actually impede kids from reaching their potential. Julie Cornell is a teacher at Alouette Elementary in Maple Ridge, BC. Her school district was an early adopter of the no-grades approach. When I spoke to her in February, I started by asking her why the district took the grades-free approach back in 2013.

JULIE CORNELL: Well, it started a couple of years before that and we basically, we had sort of a committee, a reporting committee that got together and just asked ourselves a really big question which was what do parents and students and teachers really need or would be really beneficial in the whole reporting process?

KC: Was there something about grades that wasn't doing that?

JULIE CORNELL: I don't think the conversation ever started from grades. It started from what would work better because right now teachers are at the point—at that point, teachers were spending hours and hours and hours working on report cards and they weren't feeling a big impact when they actually gave those report cards to the family. So letter grades was something that came in later. It was never the goal from the beginning. It was where we ended up.

KC: So without the grades then, how do you evaluate students?

JULIE CORNELL: I think it's important that you—okay, so terminology, evaluate means that we are assessing them like we're giving them a judgment on how they're doing. And we still do that in a lot of ways. No letter grades doesn't mean that we don't do any assessment. It just means that we don't give them a letter grade.

KC: Right. So what would their report cards look like?

JULIE CORNELL: So the report card, the report card is a bit of a process and I think that that's an important piece also, that we never just removed letter grades, we implemented a new method of reporting. So there are two components to that. Two big components. One is the letter grades went away but the second part is that we have students and parents in to conference and we meet with every single family to discuss that student's progress. So the official paper report card is a part of that conversation. On one of their pages, we have the student’s report on their growth in the competencies areas. Those are big skill sets like curiosity, cooperation, organization, motivation, social responsibility, all those types of things. And students are a big part of that now. We've just shifted to where the students have to actually provide evidence on each one of those things. Second page has the teachers assessing the students on literacy and numeracy in the big curricular areas and the teachers do make an assessment on how they're doing. And we do that in—I can’t remember the exact number—it’s probably nine or 10 different areas in literacy and four in numeracy. And then our last page or our— there's one more page but it's just more of a description area—but the last page is then where we sit down and we fill it out during the conference. We make notes of our conversation with parents. We write down how the student is doing, any successes, any challenges and then the student writes a goal or goals in that conference together with the parent and the teachers and that forms the plan for the next term.

KC: How does this affect the workload for teachers?

JULIE CORNELL: Believe it or not, I think it's reduced because the number of hours we used to put in to preparing report cards is equal, if not significantly reduced when we now meet with every family.

KC: I want to bring somebody else into the conversation here. Michael Zwaagstra is a high school social studies teacher, and a senior fellow at the Frontier Centre for Public Policy. He's in Steinbach, Manitoba. Hello.

MICHAEL ZWAAGSTRA: Hello.

KC: So Michael Zwaagstra, what do you think about this idea of eliminating letter grades?

MICHAEL ZWAAGSTRA: Well, I think grades are an important part of the evaluating process and I'll just say for the record that I would consider letter grades like the second best of the options. I actually prefer percentage grades. But whether it's percentage or letter grades, there are different levels of performance. There's different levels of mastery of the subject area. And I think particularly as you go into higher grades and in the intro you mentioned the school north of Vancouver that's eliminating the letter grades grades four to nine. Grade eight and nine, that's not elementary school. Those are certainly levels where students should be receiving specific grades that indicate levels of proficiency because the fact of life is that there are different levels of performance and letter grades and percentage grades are simple accurate ways of identifying where is the student at, parents understand what that information is. There's no problem with adding in additional information. If a school wants to have, let's have more parent conferences, let's put more information on the report cards, by all means do that but you don't need to take out the grade in order to add the extra information.

KC: What do you think would be lost in a no-grade system that Julie Cornell was describing?

MICHAEL ZWAAGSTRA: You’re losing information. You're losing that quick snapshot that most parents and frankly many students want to see when they look at a report card, where they want to see where am I at? There is a significant difference between someone who's sitting at an 89 in a course or subject and someone who is sitting at a 65. And it's helpful to have that snapshot and it's also something that you can use to work from, that okay, let's improve our marks. Let's do better and then you can see the improvement on the next report card. I get the argument about let's have you know the descriptive feedback and that, but frankly a lot of parents aren’t terribly interested in reading long paragraphs in order to try to figure out where their kid is at and having a long extensive conversation every time. Sometimes you want to have just a simple straightforward discussion and conversation and you want to be able to use the straightforward letter or percentage grade as reference points.

KC: Do you think the grades motivate your students?

MICHAEL ZWAAGSTRA: It depends on the student. I mean not all students are the same. There are some students that are very motivated by grades. Absolutely. Some students want to know how they can go from an 85 to a 90 and that sort of thing. There are other students who would find them less motivating. But even for those who find it less motivating, no one would argue that grades are the only thing that we use to motivate students and all teachers know that, that there's a variety of things that we do to motivate. But just because grades don't motivate all students doesn't mean we should eliminate grades for all students. They are a useful reference point for giving information to both students and parents and I think we should keep them.

KC: Julie Cornell, what about the argument that students need this precision in their grades to stay informed and motivated?

JULIE CORNELL: Actually I've seen really the opposite. And I am speaking from elementary standpoint, grades four to seven, but what I've seen is that when the letter grades went away, motivation soared. So students that were typically maybe good performers in a subject getting a good letter grade, in the past they were a little lazy to do a lot more. They were getting good grades so why bother doing much more? And students who were low performers getting a low grade, they didn’t want to try any harder because it was hopeless. They will never be better than that. And what I've seen is that across the board in my entire class, students want to learn more. They don't want a good grade anymore. They want to be a good writer. They want to understand the ecosystem better. They want to have personal growth. They don't care about getting a better grade.

KC: Michael Zwaagstra argues that in life, some people just do better on things and that this is part of the cruel preparation for life. What do you think about that?

JULIE CORNELL: I think there's a lot of ways you can prepare for life. And as far as we're concerned in Maple Ridge, grades four to seven is not the place to start.

KC: But do you think that factors in into this idea that you will be measured in life in some way?

JULIE CORNELL: I know that you are measured in. I know that by taking away the letter grades, I know that the pressure, the students get to take a little break from that. They get to take a break from oh my goodness, I'm getting a letter grade in grade four when it terrifies them. It terrifies them. They are so scared of what it means. Letter grades often were seen as a judgment that the teacher made and it was a judgment—especially in elementary school—where you know oh, that teacher made a mistake. My kid is smarter than that, or that teacher doesn’t like my kid or the kid might think you know I worked harder than that. How come I don't deserve more grades? I don't know. It was always a weird shift. It was always on the teacher and now believe it or not, the shift is on the student. Whenever something is going on in the class, the parents are looking at their kid. Hey, what do you need to learn this better and what can you do more? How can you work harder to learn more?

KC: Where does the sort of negative—I guess I don't know if that's the right way to put it, educators—but sort of that idea that you know there's a penalty for not trying. I mean that’s I think an impression about grades. If you get a low grade, you know it’s sort of a negative sort of push to do better. Is that missing from sort of general feedback?

JULIE CORNELL: I don't think so because I think every teacher marks the same way and I think that that's important to mention too, that just because we don't have better grades doesn't mean we don't have marks of some kind. Every teacher has got a system that they'll use to give. And it's not entirely feedback with zero grades. I don't think there are many teachers that do that in our district. They still give a mark but the mark this time might be you know something out of 10, this time might be out of four, might be using the performance centres or the rubric. It might be pass-fail. So there is always feedback to the kid that is beyond just written comments. And I think the parents, when I've talked to parents, it started where I always ask parents okay, was there anything else you need to know about how your kid’s doing? And in the beginning, they still were interested in letter grades and that is an option in our district—for any family in our district—if they want letter grade for their child they just have to let the teacher know and we'll provide them. We're not refusing them. We're just saying they're not a big part of the conversation.

KC: Now you've seen students go from your system back to grades. Have you heard back about what kind of a transition that was like?

JULIE CORNELL: I've absolutely heard back. A lot of the students go to high school are in touch with me and they visit and that's one of the questions I ask them a lot, like how is it going getting grades? And now, I would say in the past they would say oh, I'm just doing you know I'm getting this grade, I'm getting that grade. They weren't really very excited because it was just like they're used to. They expected low grades. Now students are very, very, very excited. They're getting grades. They're getting some feedback. But they're also doing well because they now have this motivation and what it takes to be successful. They have a personal drive that they developed because they had all this time without letter grades and had good support from the teachers and their parents and what it takes to be a successful student. And now they're going into high school armed with that success.

KC: Michael Zwaagstra, Julie Cornell says the no-grades method is working for her students. How likely do you think that more schools will start experimenting with this?

MICHAEL ZWAAGSTRA: Well, this has been around for a while. I mean I know that in places like Calgary, they've been doing something like this with the K to nine level. And there's been a lot of pushback from parents, substantial pushback because they don't like having grades replaced with things like evidence and emerging and all these sorts of verbal mumbo jumbo that tends to get used in these cases. I’m not saying that's happening in Julie's case, but this is what often happens. And I will add as well that when you have parent meetings with schools where their parents are providing feedback, this initiative to dump grades is never coming from parents. I've never heard of a case in terms of the broader parent community coming to the school and saying we demand that you stop giving our schools grades. We don't want that information. We would rather just receive verbal feedback and we'll just get the grade if we happen to choose to ask for it. This is always something that gets initiated by people who have a certain educational theory who are more on the progressive end of the spectrum in terms of the educational philosophy, who prefer to focus less on the content and more on the process. And so it's part of a differing educational philosophy and I happen to hold a different educational philosophy. I think that content matters. Skills matter and that we need to actually evaluate where those skills are at and whether students have mastered the content.

KC: Is it your suggestion that the skills don't matter in the non-letter grade evaluation system? I'm not sure that's what Julie was saying.

MICHAEL ZWAAGSTRA: Well, what I'm saying is that for example, take math skills. And I haven't always taught high school, I used to teach grade five and at the time I taught grade five, I gave percentage grades and I didn't find that it was you know dramatically demotivational to students. But do you take a subject like math and you have simply different levels of proficiency. There's a huge difference between a student who is very effective at their two-digit by two-digit multiplication and a student who is not. And so it is entirely possible to take where the student is at and then calculate it and then put okay at math, they’re at this level in terms of the percentage. When you take these particular skill areas that we're doing this term, here are the assignments that we've done. Here's what we've gotten. And now here's the grade and we can use that. Yes, you can still have a focus on skills if you don't have the grades, but when you move away from grades, it becomes rather easy to sort of to move away from that emphasis on measurement and saying that there are specific things that everyone needs to know and that everyone needs to master and I can tell you in faculties of education, this is a hot debate where many education professors truly believe that content isn't particularly important. I know because I’ve had this discussion with many education professors and they tend to be the ones who are pushing this type of thing the hardest.

KC: Just to wrap up. Julie Cornell, I'm getting a sense this is controversial.

JULIE CORNELL: Definitely. Definitely controversial but I think that it was really important in Maple Ridge that we decided we wanted to move away from letter grades. Just moving away from letter grades was not our approach. We knew that our approach had to be something that gave the whole picture. So the whole idea of having students involved, reporting on competencies, reporting on key subject areas, literacy and numeracy, and talking in a conference with everybody. The whole part of that is what makes it make sense and in our school district, we don't have parents that are unhappy. We have parents that are enjoying the system. I've had parents ask me, I wish they'd get away with letter grades in high school. I've had many parents ask me that because they don't think it works. Students still like it sometimes in high school. It's a change. It's something new. It's exciting. But they also have not had them yet so when they first get them, it's kind of cool. But they're older, they're more mature. I just think we don’t—

KC: Julie, sorry. I’m just running out of time here. It's such an interesting discussion though. Thank you both for talking with me.

MICHAEL ZWAAGSTRA: You’re welcome.

JULIE CORNELL: No problem. Thanks very much.

KC: Julie Cornell is a teacher at Alouette Elementary in Maple Ridge, BC who no longer gives grades to her students. Michael Zwaagstra is a high school teacher and a senior fellow at the Frontier Centre for Public Policy. He was in Steinbach, Manitoba. School boards in BC aren't the only ones grappling with throwing out letter grades. In 2014, the Calgary school board brought in changes to their report cards for Grades K to nine. It replaced a percentage system that correlated a letter grade—so a 75 per cent would correlate to a B—and brought in a system where kids received numbers between one and four. With the new system, a one means a student is not meeting grade level. Two is basic. Three is good and four is excellent. Lisa Davis is a mother of two kids in grades four and seven and the president and board member of the Calgary Association of Parents and School Councils. She hears from parents who are not thrilled with the change.

SOUNDCLIP

There are many, many parents complaining that they don't actually really know where their child is at. And so if a child gets a three on a report card for example, the parent will go in and ask the teacher what's that equivalent to? Is that 65 per cent or 75 per cent or 80 per cent? What is that? Teachers are specifically instructed not to make equivalencies with percentages. So as a parent, it becomes very difficult to really understand where your child is at.

KC: Lisa Davis says she hears from many other parents that as these kids move on to high school where they get percentage grades, some of them are shocked to find out where they actually fit in. And she says parents aren't getting the information they need.

SOUNDCLIP

Part of the sale that the school board made to parents was that there would be more robust feedback. There would be more robust comments. And what's actually happened is a reverse. Between vague report cards, vague comments and a reduced interaction directly with the teacher, there are many parents who are struggling to figure out what their child is doing in school and in fact where they're really at. The hallmark of great assessment is it is easy to understand and transparent to all. And so moving away from either letter grade or percentages simply fail that test.

KC: Our next guest has been studying this issue. Sandra Mathison is a professor of education at the University of British Columbia. We reached her in Vancouver this morning. Hello.

SANDRA MATHISON: Good morning.

KC: Sandra Mathison, we've heard from BC and Calgary. How widespread is this move away from letter grades in Canada?

SANDRA MATHISON: Well, I think there are an increasing number of schools and districts that are making this shift. Is it at the level of a tidal wave? I think probably not yet. But I think increasingly what's happening is contrary to what your guest from Manitoba suggested, the impetus is coming from teachers within schools and within school districts. It's not actually coming from faculties of education, as he suggested. There is, I think, a growing level of concern, thoughtfulness about what counts as really helpful assessment of students, both in terms of a whole variety of things that we hope to get from good assessments—helping students to be internally motivated rather than the external motivation that's characteristic of grades, letter grades or percentages. The idea of giving students more engagement and efficacy with regard to their own involvement in their own assessment, learning how to make judgments about the work that they're doing about their own learning, which is something they'll take away with them after school is completed. So I think that there's a bit of a groundswell that's occurring. It's perhaps exaggerated in British Columbia because we are provincially at a moment where I think the ministry has opened up the conversation with parents across the province to say what kinds of information might be helpful. I think that's unique in the country but it's happening in lots of places.

KC: Now, is it a good thing? It sounds like you seem persuaded by it.

SANDRA MATHISON: It is a good thing. You know it's interesting. A lot of the research on grades is not really recent. Much of the research was done in the eighties and nineties. We have lots of evidence to suggest that in fact, grades have a whole bunch of potentially negative consequences. Even though they've been used for a long time, even though it's been the tradition, that's not a good reason to continue educational practices just because they've been in place for a very long period of time. We know a lot about the negative influence of grades on motivation. Grades are—and I think your guests Julie and Michael really exemplifies an important distinction—Julia's description really builds on the kind of internal motivation that we want to build. We want kids to be interested in what they're learning. We want them to focus on the learning tasks. We want them to stay engaged and interested in what they're doing. We don't want them to be fearful of assessments of their performance. Assessments occur whether they’re grade percentages or not. We want them to think of that assessment as a way to help them be better at what it is that they're doing. Michael exemplifies the very, I think, much more traditional notions that grades are—there is an external motivation, that kind of carrot stick approach to getting kids to do what we want them to do in schools, so that we in fact do instill some fear in them. If they don't get a good grade, there will be negative consequences. The problem with that is that we see routinely that it has a negative impact on students. Low grades are not a motivation to get higher grades usually. They oftentimes are—they decrease engagement. They decrease enjoyment. Low grades are motivation oftentimes to continue to get low grades.

KC: Now what about the idea of needing marks to apply for university?

SANDRA MATHISON: Well again, that has traditionally been the case. It isn't, I think, as big a problem as people set it up to be. My own university has begun to move to a much broader based way of making admissions decisions. Grades because they're available are still used. But I think that university admissions recognizes that students bring lots of different skills, knowledge and capabilities with them to post-secondary education and that in Canada, I think universities are playing a bit of a catch up by moving to a more broad-based ways of looking at student applications. Universities are going to get in line. They're going to adapt. They're going to begin thinking in more interesting and complex ways about making admissions decisions.

KC: What about at university? Get rid of marks altogether?

SANDRA MATHISON: Well, you know that's an interesting thing. There are lots of places within post-secondary education where grades are not given. So in the teacher education program at my own university, most of the courses are pass-fail, so that in fact there's no presumption, that future teachers are motivated by grades. In medical schools has been another place where there's been a move away from grades and percentages to much more formative kinds of assessments that help people to build the knowledge and skills that are going to make them good physicians and other kinds of health care workers.

KC: Okay. Sandra Mathison, thank you very much.

SANDRA MATHISON: You're welcome.

KC: Sandra Mathison is a professor of education at the University of British Columbia. We reached her in Vancouver in February. This month, the Yukon indicated that it too would move toward letter grade-free report cards for its elementary school students. If you're a teacher, parent or student, you probably have thoughts about this. Tweet us @thecurrentCBC, comment on Facebook or e-mail us from our website, www.cbc.ca/thecurrent, and click on the contact link. That's today's edition of The Current. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Today Montreal artist Dominique Petrin tells Tom Power what it was like to design a room in Banksy’s new West Bank hotel art project. And remember you can always take The Current with you to go with the CBC Radio app. It's free from the App Store or Google Play. And after our conversation about preserving Inuktitut language, let’s end with some music from a band that's doing just that. The Jerry Cans hail from Iqaluit and they're building up quite an audience across North America, even as they sing in Inuktitut. We'll leave you with one of their most recent songs. This is “Ukiuq”. I'm Kelly Crowe. Thanks for listening to The Current.

[Music: “Ukiuq” – The Jerry Cans]

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March 29, 2017 full episode transcript

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