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The AIH Transcript for March 24, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: The art of “No deal”. The House vote on U.S. President Donald Trump's first major legislative push — the repeal and replacement of Obamacare — is pulled at the last minute when it becomes clear that it's DOA.

JD: Romancing the Keystone. President Trump did make progress on another promise, though, giving the go ahead to the Keystone XL pipeline. Although, a Nebraska farmer says that progress will come to a screeching halt at his property line.

CO: Freedom's just another word for so much left to gain. Former Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak is released from prison. And one of the activists who helped bring him down reflects on what that means for her and for the revolution.

JD: There goes the neighbor hoodlum. When a church burns down in North Dakota, the man next door has mixed feelings. On one hand, it was an historic building, on the other it had just been bought by a notorious white supremacist.

CO: Making her presence felt. Well, all of her is felt — she is a Muppet — but her presence is significant, because Julia is the first ever character on Sesame Street with autism.

JD: And… the tedium is the message. Andrew Saxton is running for the leadership of the Conservative Party, but he is nowhere near the lead. So he has decided to change that by presenting himself as the chairman of the boredom. As It Happens the Friday edition, radio that presents the guest of yawner.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: US health care vote, Keystone decision, Andrew Saxton

Us health care vote

Guests: Brian Bennett

JD: U.S. President Donald Trump fancies himself a closer. His name is on a book called “The Art of the Deal”. Today though, his reputation as a deal maker took a bit of a hit. Unable to secure enough votes in the house for his Obamacare repeal replacement bill, the Republicans had to pull it from the agenda. Here is what the President had to say after the vote was canceled.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Thank you very much. We will very close, it was a very, very tight margin. We had no Democrat support. We had no votes from the Democrats. They weren't going to give us a single vote. So it's a very difficult thing to do. I've been saying for the last year and a half that the best thing we can do politically speaking is to let Obamacare explode. It is exploding right now. Many states have problems —almost all states have big problems — I was in Tennessee the other day, and they’ve lost half of their state in terms of an insurer. They have no insurer. And that's happening to many other places. I was in Kentucky the other day, and similar things are happening. So Obamacare is exploding with no Democrat support we couldn't quite get there. We're just a very small number of votes short in terms of getting our bill passed. A lot of people don't realize how good our bill was because they were viewing phase one, but when you add phase two, which was mostly the signings Secretary Price, who is behind me. And you add phase three, which I think we would have gotten, it became a great bill. Premiums would have gone down and it would have been very stable and would have been very strong. But that's OK, we’re really, really close. And again, I think what will happen is Obamacare unfortunately will explode. It’s going to have a very bad year. What would be really good with no Democrat support, if the Democrats when it explodes, which you will soon. If they got together with us and get a real health care bill I'd be totally open to it. And I think that's going to happen. I think the losers are Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer because now they own Obamacare, they own it 100 per cent own it. And they have Obamacare for a little while longer until it ceases to exist, which it will at some point in the near future.

JD: That was President Trump speaking this afternoon. Brian Bennett is the White House reporter with the Los Angeles Times. We reached him in the White House press room in Washington, D.C.

CO: Brian, we just heard from Donald Trump at the White House. He seems to be blaming the Democrats for this failure. What do you say to that?

BRIAN BENNETT: He obviously has a strategy here. He wants to try to put pressure on the Democrats and get them to come to the table later to negotiate over a new version of the health care bill. He stopped short of blaming the Republicans who are going to be no votes on the bill. They are members of a fleeting caucus, many of whom were early supporters of Donald Trump. Who had dug in their heels and weren’t going to support this bill. But he didn't lay blame on them; he really tried to focus all comments on the Democrats for not having any support for the Republican bill. And he also believes that the Obamacare system will collapse under its own weight and that will bring those Democrats to the table.

CO: We just heard that as well, he said that Obamacare will implode or explode on its own and then the Democrats will have to reach out because they will have to fix it. So is that a strategy or is that just an attempt to try and cover for what happened today?

BB: It's wishful thinking. I don’t think the Democrats are going to come to table on this. They’re perfectly happy with Obamacare staying in place. And there's going to be a reckoning within the Republican Party and within the Republican House caucus about how this happened and who is to blame? So it will be interesting to see how much political fallout there really is because of this.

CO: And who is to blame? I mean one of the remarks Mr. Trump made he says we learned a lot. We learned about it about arcane rules. We heard Republican House leader Paul Ryan say gosh, doing big things is hard and we now have to figure out how we got to this place. What went wrong?

BB: Well, Paul Ryan wasn't able to design a bill that could carry his whole caucus and they weren’t able to negotiate with the holdouts — some of the conservative holdouts in Freedom Caucus — that had blocked other bills in the past. And it really came down to discussions over what kind of requirements insurance companies would be under when it came to designing health plans? And there were voices in the Republican Party that really wanted as much freedom as possible for the insurance companies so that they sell plans without a lot of restrictions and limitations.

CO: You mentioned the Freedom Caucus, which in Canada we won’t know what that is. It seemed also Mr. Trump mentioned he seemed a bit hot under the collar when he spoke of these Republicans. How did they affect what happened today?

BB: So this is a group of right wing members that a lot of them were actually early supporters of Donald Trump. But they wanted repeal of Obamacare. It didn't really want a replacement put in place. And because Trump on the campaign trail had promised that he would protect insurance for people who already were able to get insurance under Obamacare, he really wanted to simultaneously repeal the Affordable Care Act and replace it with something. But that wasn’t something that the whole part could agree to. And so that was where the negotiations fell down.

CO: I’m just wondering what the fallout of this is going to be politically for Mr. Trump? He has promised throughout campaigning and since he became the president he said no one will lose coverage, there will be insurance for everybody. Health care will be a lot less expensive for everyone. Everyone is going to be happy the picture is going to be beautiful when it's all finished. And so where does this leave him? How is he going to save face on this one?

BB: This this failure puts a chink in Donald Trump's armor. He sold himself as a deal maker and a consummate negotiator. And here was his first big legislative test to push a bill through and he wasn't able to do it. He had campaigned on repealing and replacing Obamacare and here in his first big moment to deliver on that, he fell short. And based on his comments today, he doesn't even plan to go back at it any time soon. He's willing to move on and try to get some of his other priorities like tax reform and border security done.

CO: Why do you think that's the case? This is big. This was his lead salvo. Why would he just walk away at this point?

BB: That's a great question. I mean I think he realizes that it's a losing issue right now. That he is probably not going to get it over the finish line any time soon. And so he wants to try to go to some other issues where he can get some wins. Where he can find consensus among Republicans and he's going to turn his attention to tax reform and tax breaks where he feels like he can get a lot of agreement. There were these budgetary and counter reasons they wanted to go after the health care bill first and he's just going to push those aside and move on down his legislative list.

CO: I remember when he was meeting with then President Obama just after he won. And Obama said to him, you know I told I told Mr. Trump this is the hardest job you could possibly have. It's just so much more difficult than you could ever imagine. Do you think that’s sinking in?

BB: I think that might be sinking in. I think based on his response today, his admission that he learned a lot and his willingness to just pull the vote instead of just seeing where the chips fall. I think it does show that instead of digging in, he’s realizing that you know he hasn't played this perfectly and he maybe should a little more humility than we are used to seeing today. And so he's saying it's a wakeup call that negotiating a complicated health care bill that impacts the lives of millions of millions of people is a lot different than negotiating a real estate deal.

CO: We'll leave it there. Brian, thank you.

BB: Happy to be with you.

JD: Brian Bennett is the White House reporter with the Los Angeles Times and we reached him in the very busy as you could hear there, White House Press Room in Washington D.C.

[Music: Indie pop]

Keystone decision

Guest: Art Tanderup

JD: President Trump hit a bit of a snag in his attempt to keep his promise to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act today. But he did come through on a different promise: on pipelines. At the White House this morning, with the CEO of Calgary based Trans-Canada by his side, President Trump issued a presidential permit to allow that company to build the long awaited Keystone pipeline. Here's part of what the president had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

DT: TransCanada will finally be allowed to complete this long overdue project. It's going to be an incredible pipeline with the greatest technology known to man or woman. And frankly, we're very proud of it. Russ Girling, president of TransCanada is right behind me. Russ you've been waiting for a long, long time and I hope you don't pay your consultants anything because they have nothing to do with this.

[Sound: Lots of laughter]

DT: You should ask for hundreds of millions of dollars back that you paid them. Because they didn't do a damn thing except get you a “no” vote, right? This announcement is part of a new era of American energy policy that will lower costs for American families. Reduce our dependence on foreign oil and create thousands of jobs right here in America. I also would like to add I think it's a lot safer to have pipelines then to use other forms of transportation for your product.

JD: So that was President Donald Trump announcing a presidential permit to begin construction on the Keystone Pipeline, which is slated to transport Alberta crude to the Gulf of Mexico. Now the pipelines proposed route cuts through the land of a Nebraska farmer by the name of Art Tanderup. So far, he has refused to give permission for TransCanada to build on his land. We reached him in Neligh, Nebraska.

CO: Mr. Tanderup, you just heard President Trump's announcement. Are you going to have to accept that Keystone Expo is a happening thing?

ART TANDERUP: Absolutely not. We've stopped Keystone twice before and we believe we can stop it again. We're obviously not happy and we're going to do everything we can to stop this pipeline.

CO: What can you possibly do?

AT: Well, Nebraska is the only state that doesn't have a route verified. You know all the other states have their routes determined. Nebraska does not. TransCanada has a route that they would like to use, which happens to come right through my farm — about 600 feet from where I'm sitting right now. But it has to go now through Nebraska's Public Service Commission and that's a state agency that has to make a decision whether it's going to, first of all, allow them to come through Nebraska at all. Whether they will allow them to use the route that they are proposing or whether it will tell them if they want to come through Nebraska, they have to use a different route.

CO; But you know a lot has changed since November. The Obama administration was kind of on the fence about it anyway. Now you're up against a lot aren't you? I mean you've got a president in the White House very determined to see Keystone XL go through. He campaigned on it. You've got your governor in Nebraska, he's for it and you’ve got a lot of people saying well there are good paying jobs coming through with. That this that this is a safer way to transport fuel. Things are lining up against you aren't they?

AT: Well yeah. Yeah, it's kind of a heavy load on this side of the issue. You know the sad thing is that those jobs are all temporary. There are 35 permanent jobs. It's carrying the dirtiest form of fossil fuel that exists and it's carrying it through Nebraska and taking it to the Gulf Coast, where most of it will be refined and exported. So it's not taking us off of foreign dependence on oil. The whole issue is for TransCanada to make money and their investors.

CO: Mr. Trump is saying it's good for America. And one of the arguments he makes is that you're saying that it's dirty oil and it's dangerous to come through pipeline. It seems it's going to go to those refineries one way or another. The argument TransCanada is giving is that this is the safest way to do it. What do you say to that?

AT: Well, that's what they're saying and they are also saying they build the safest pipeline ever. And you know we know just over here on Keystone One, about 70 miles from where I live, there was a tremendous spill a year ago now in Freeman, South Dakota. The question should be how fast can we get off these dirty fossil fuels and get on renewable energy? The question is not how should we transport this this filthy chemical mixture? The question should be how can we transform this country and other countries into a renewable energy environment where we don't need these things anymore?

CO: We've had a number of interviews with people in Nebraska. Landowners like yourself who are who were fighting TransCanada when it went after the right to go through their properties. And TransCanada has been very aggressive in those efforts. What are the chances that you'll be able to resist TransCanada in the courts when it's got the backing of the White House?

AT: Well, the courts in Nebraska aren't the White House. You know it's an uphill battle. There's no doubt about it, but it's something that has to be done. We're going to do everything we can to resist and if we can't get it stopped in our Public Service Commission, we're going to have to resort to the courts.

CO: How far are you willing to go? How deep are your pockets I should ask?

AT: Well, I tell you what. I'm a retired schoolteacher, so I'm not a rich person and we moved back to our small family farm to retire and farm. And you know I don't have a lot of money and I've spent a lot of money already thanks to TransCanada on you know on legal fees and so forth in this battle so far. And my pockets aren't that deep. But you know what. They're going to have to run me over with a bulldozer before they can come on my land. And I will go as far as I can with what resources I have to stop them.

CO: Has TransCanada offered you money?

AT: Oh absolutely.

CO: This doesn't appeal?

AT: I'm not a greedy person and I value clean air and clean drinking water much more than a bunch of money. I want my grandchildren and their grandchildren to have clean air and to have clean water.

CO: You said you're 600 feet from where they want to put the pipeline where you sit right now. 600 feet away from you. How likely is it that within the next couple of years you're going to look out and that's going to be 600 feet away from you?

AT: That's a tough question. And two years from now, I don't think it's going to be there.

CO: We will check back with you Mr. Tanderup.

AT: OK.

CO: All right, good to talk to you.

AT: OK, thank you very much.

CO: Bye bye.

AT: Bye.

JD: We reached Art Tanderup in Neligh, Nebraska.

[Music: Peril/folk]

Andrew Saxton

Guest: Andrew Saxton

JD: Andrew Saxton is running for the leadership of the Conservative Party of Canada. He is not a front-runner. He would like to change that. And that is why he made a new campaign ad. It came out today. Here it is.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SAXTON: I'm Andrew Saxton, I'm a middle-aged male running for Conservative leader. The National Post recently named me the most generic candidate and I'm proud of that because generic is boring and boring works. Instead of having pretty hair or being a big TV personality, instead of making outrageous comments or expensive promises, boring gets the job done. Look Trudeau's honeymoon is over and Canadians are tired of broken promises. The image, the glitz and the glamour. Canadians just want someone they can trust. And the truth is you can trust boring because boring gets the job done. Government was never supposed to show business. Let's get back to basics. I can get the job done.

JD: OK, that was a campaign ad by Andrew Saxton. He is running for the leadership of the Conservative Party. He says he's boring, but is he boring? Let's find out. We reached Mr. Saxton in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Saxton, just how dull are you?

AS: Well you know Carol, the National Post called me the most generic candidate. And you know, I'm OK with that because boring gets the job done. You know the former premier Bill Davis said bland works and I agree with him that bland works. My background is in finance. I have over 30 years’ experience. I've worked in the private sector for two large banks in five countries and I've also worked as a Member of Parliament for seven years. And as Jim Flaherty's right hand man as parliamentary secretary and I was part of Joe Oliver's team to balance the budget in 2015. So the number one issue facing Canadians right now is the economy and jobs and that's the area where I have the strongest experience of any of the candidates.

CO: OK that's your best your best bid to show us how dull you are then is it?

AS: Well, I can keep going if you'd like.

CO: No, no please.

AS: I'd be happy to. In fact, I'm planning on launching a boring tour.

CO: It's working so far. Now I’m going to go through a checklist with you. We've thought of making sure that you really are as boring as you say you are. So here's your checklist. First of all, have you ever been or are you going to show us yourself in a boxing ring fighting anyone?

AS: You know I have no plans to do that at this time. I was a wrestler when I was in high school, so I would certainly be happy to get into the wrestling ring.

CO: All right, but you're not going to be dull if you do that. That's the problem here?

AS: I can be a pretty dull wrestler.

CO: All right. So if you're wrestling are you going to show your bare chest? Are we going to have to look at you half naked?

AS: I don't know if you want to see my bare chest? That belongs to the Prime Minister, he likes to do that. I'm happy keeping my T-shirt on.

CO: All right, we’ll take that as a no. So this is so far so good. Have you ever been or will you be on Shark Tank, or will you be a dragon?

AS: Well I have no plans to be on Shark Tank or be on Dragons Den, but I have to admit that according to the Chinese horoscope I am a dragon.

CO: OK, well we’ll take that as a no on the TV personality front though.

AS: Absolutely not.

CO: Have you ever had a girlfriend who associated with bikers?

AS: Not that I know of.

CO: Because Maxime Bernier had that girlfriend and Hell's Angels friends.

AS: We remember her well, Julie Couillard.

CO: And you remember he left top secret documents in the company of her. And so are you planning to leave any top secret documents with anyone associated with Hell's Angels?

AS: I think that I am I'm so boring that I won't have a scandal related to me.

CO: Are you planning to propose a law about barbaric cultural practices or to have newcomers screened for the “Canadian Values”?

AS: I have no plans in the works for that. I think that belongs to another candidate.

CO: OK, so far so good. And so any tattoos that you're going to share with us?

AS: I have no tattoos and no body piercings, which must make me boring.

CO: This is so far so good. I think you're doing well on the dull front here.

AS: OK.

CO: So what's exciting about your dull campaign?

AS: Well, I tell you what's exciting is I've got ideas to help people get back to work. I've met with thousands of Canadians and lots of young Canadians. And the number one issue on young people's minds today is unemployment because when they're getting their degrees from university they're coming out with debt and they can't find a job. This is what I will do as Prime Minister of Canada. Make sure that young people have the opportunity and have the option of either going into an apprenticeship program or into further education. But at least they should have the option to have that choice.

CO: Do you see yourself as becoming the prime minister?

AS: That's why I'm in this, Carol. I think this is an important race. I love this country and you know we are the best country in the world and it didn't happen by accident. It happened because of good governments making good decisions. And right now, I'm very concerned that we do not have a good government in Ottawa. They are taking us deeper and deeper into debt. We have to take back responsible government.

CO: You know as you pointed out, you are close to the very bottom of the list of candidates. The National Post has described you as you said as the most generic brand leadership candidate. They say not a lot of differentiating characteristics, specific plans or headline worthy positions. And you said you're proud of the position that National Post has put you in. But do you think that you're up against some pretty flashy characters like Kevin O'Leary and Maxime Bernier, who are topping the polls.

AS: Well, there's no question that there's some flash involved, but I don't think Flash is what Canada needs. I think Canada needs to go back to you know boring politics. Look that's what got us through the Great Recession of 2008-2009 because our banking industry was boring. And we were the number one country coming out of that recession with the strongest economy. So we don't need glitz and glamour. Government was not supposed to be show business. Government is supposed to be serious work and getting the job done. And that's what I know how to do. I'm the only candidate of the 14 that has a written an costed plan to get us back to a balanced budget within two years of taking office in 2019. I'm planning to go across the country on my Boring Works Tour and I'm going to be visiting Canadians across the country in Tim Horton’s. I've been doing it already. I just came from the Maritimes. We had 30 different stops in five provinces and that's what we need to do is we need to get back to the basics and get back to the grass roots.

CO: All right, does one we let you go is there anything exciting about you? Any secret you want to tell us about yourself that is kind of titillating?

AS: Well, I can tell you my first job was digging and selling worms at a fishing resort. And I learned very early how to get my hands dirty and to solve problems. And I've been very fortunate in my career. I got to work on Wall Street as well. So if I ever write a book it's going to be “From Worms to Wall Street”. And I believe that that could be exciting. As my mother would say, that could be a best-smeller.

CO; We’ll leave it there. Mr. Saxton, thank you.

AS: OK Carol, my pleasure.

CO: Have a great weekend.

AS: You too.

JD: Andrew Saxon is running to become leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. We reached him in Toronto.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Mubarak free, new Sesame Street character

Mubarak free

Guest: Gigi Ibrahim

JD: Hosni Mubarak is a free man. In 2012, the former Egyptian president was sentenced to life in prison for his role in the deaths of protesters in the uprising against him the year before. This morning, however, he was released. It is a loss for the Arab Spring revolutionaries who forced him to step down six years ago. And a reminder that the democratic society they hope to create in Egypt is still a long way off. Gigi Ibrahim is an Egyptian journalist blogger and activist. We reached her in Cairo.

CO: Ms. Ibrahim, how does it feel to know that Hosni Mubarak is at home this evening in his Cairo mansion?

GIGI IBRAHIM: It's devastating to say the least. Disappointment and anger comes to mind. All throughout the past six years, we have been fighting really hard to keep the spirit of the revolution and keep demanding the same old demands for freedom, social justice and dignity as an Egyptian. But what we've been witnessing in the past few years has been really, really rough. To express kind of any kind of political opinion it's very difficult. You can't protest like we used to. You can't go out on the streets like we did in the past.

CO: Does that mean that we're not going to see any street protests with the knowledge that Mr. Mubarak has been released? We’re not going to see anyone take to the streets?

GI: Unfortunately no. And this has been going on for the past three years, especially since that 2013 massacre and military coup headed by Sisi. Basically the revolutionary camp that originally took part in the January 25th revolution, they have been facing an unprecedented crackdown on freedom of speech, freedom of expression and political organization.

CO: To interrupt. Just so people know you're referring to a time when General el-Sisi, who is now the president, he cleared central Cairo — the Tahrir Square — of a protest mostly of the Muslim Brotherhood. Eight hundred people are believed to have been killed and that was August 2013. So since then it's been unlikely to see anyone take to the streets, is that right?

GI: Exactly. And they made this anti-protest law basically in November 2013. Basically they have imprisoned thousands and thousands of people since then under this single law.

CO: We’ve moved to talking about President el-Sisi. Let’s just go back to day one. Basically the beginning of Arab Spring and that extraordinary moment in Tahrir Square when you learned — everyone who was there — learned that Mr. Mubarak was stepping down from the presidency. And then shortly after, he was arrested he and he was in the dock like every other prisoner. There was extraordinary amount of emotion at the time. We spoke with you back in those Tahrir Square protests. What was the feeling at that time? The feeling of I guess a victory?

GI: Yeah, it was vindication. It was everything that we had hoped and dreamed of. And you know basically you know people gave their lives for these demands. And people are still giving their lives and sacrificing for these demands. But at that moment, after 18 days with you know facing bullets and police and tear gas and having an Internet being shut and phones being shut. And all of this after all this horror that we went through, that we actually achieved for Mubarak to be taken down. It was like flying high and just very victorious. And to backtrack now, to fast forward I guess, to this moment now that we're living where we can't even protest and show how we really feel about him being released is like we're sitting at home and we can't do anything. It's so sad and helpless. But on the other hand, activists and revolutionary organizations have been really fighting back in small ways and in small cases. And for the least of it is that to keep their evolutionary discourse going. To keep you know the story line and like what really happened. Because this is part of the game is that the state is always trying to diminish the uprising or even change history in a way. Like writing children's books that they learn in school you know the army is the one that saved the revolution. Things like that like that. So you know they may have won a verdict, but we are still fighting to win many battles.

CO: now that Mr. Mubarak is free. There are many political prisoners; many people who are part of these protests who I believe were still in jail. Are people you know? People who are with you who are still in prison?

GI: Oh yes, many. Actually in the past three years, I've lost so many close friends to prison. You know recently Ahmed Naje got released, but the blogger activist that he is still serving his sentence. Another man is still serving his sentence. So to see these people now, these young Egyptians, all of these people who fought for the revolution and sacrificed so much and to see them now being in jail is really sad and infuriating. It just makes those who are still fighting on the outside very angry, but still resistant and resilient. And we will never stop until our friends are out and freed and Mubarak is back in prison. And it's not just Mubarak; it's the idea of Mubarak. It's what Mubarak symbolizes, which the new regime you know headed Sisi is full of people just as bad as Mubarak, if not worse.

CO: Ms. Ibrahim, I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

GI: Thank you so much Carol.

JD: Gigi Ibrahim is an Egyptian journalist blogger and activist. We reached her in Cairo.

[Music: Electronica]

From Our Archives: Jimmy Breslin obit

JD: Rumpled, brash. Always trying to look at life through the lens of the common working American. That was Jimmy Breslin. For more than five decades, Mr. Breslin was a fixture of New York journalism, notably for the New York Daily News. He was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for his work. In fact, he felt so secure in his abilities as a newspaper columnist that he declared himself quote, the best person to ever have a column in this business.” Jimmy Breslin died earlier this week in his New York City apartment. He was 88-years-old. From the As It Happens archives. Here is Jimmy Breslin in conversation with Barbara Frum on May the 5th of 1977. Context is Barbara and Mr. Breslin are discussing the Frost-Nixon interviews, in which, of course, the disgraced former president faced off against British journalist David Frost.

SOUNDCLIP

JIMMY BRESLIN: Nixon’s gone. I really don't care about him anymore.

BARBRA FUM: It's done?

JB: I do think that it is you know just perfect that David Frost and Nixon would find each other. I couldn't find two more similar people than Frost and Nixon. They deserve each other.

BF: You know I got to says that Frost was just a frustrated DA last night. He wanted to do the judging that a lot of people wanted to do.

JB: Frost is a frustrated disk jockey. He's not even smart enough to be a DA.

BF: What was the point of doing this show in your opinion? What's the point of scaring the man in public?

JB: It was true American dream: make money. Just make money and rip the public off. Cry a little bit and what the hell is going to get seven hundred thousand to a million dollars, so he sobbed a little.

BF: Yeah, that's an interesting point is for that kind of money that Nixon would humiliate himself again.

JB: He’d do it again next week! Pay him and he’ll do anything.

BF: It is interesting isn’t it? Because he doesn't need it he keeps professing to be interested in history. But what does he need this for?

JB: Because he’s a greedy little man. History? This fellow doesn’t know what history is. This man never even worked at the job of being president. He never did a day of work in his life. He just schemed and connived and cried and groveled and stabbed people in the back. And that was his idea of how you live a life.

BF: There were so many questions last night, Mr. Breslin that we're begging to be asked and weren’t. At one point, Nixon said I know how I could have gotten away with this. You know how I could have done it? And it revealed endless months of second guessing himself and Frost never plunged into that whole area.

JB Sure, I mean the basic thing is the man lied for 780 days. That’s from the day of the burglary up until the day he admitted his involvement in the cover-up. And never once did Frost grasp the magnitude of that. Of a man lying to his country for that length of time and now, as you’re talking to him at this very moment, he barely admits he lied. He says one or two times I lied once or twice. I only did it to protect my friends. You know that's the oldest thing in the world. I done it for the wife and kids, the hold-up man said.

JD: From our archives, That was famed New York City columnist, Jimmy Breslin, in conversation with Barbara Frum on this program on May 5th of 1977. Jimmy Breslin died earlier this week. He was 88-years-old. And if you would like to hear a little more from Mr. Breslin do tune into “The Sunday Edition” this weekend. They will have an encore presentation of Michael Enright’s 2004 interview with Mr. Breslin on the subject of his book “The Church that Forgot Christ”. “The Sunday Edition” is on CBC Radio One 9 a.m. Sunday, of course, 9:30 a.m. in Newfoundland.

[Music: Jazz]

New Sesame Street character

Guest: Stacey Gordon

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Light-hearted music and laughter]

ABBY: Hi Julia, you seam excited. What’s going on?

JULIA: Play, play, play.

ABBY: Oh, you want to play? Sure! What shall we play? Kickball? Maybe not. How about hide and seek?

JULIA: mmmmhmm

ABBY: It’s Ok. Sometimes friends like different things, so it can be hard to figure out what to play together.

JULIA: Play, play, play

ABBY: Oh, you know it helps to find something that you both like to do.

JD: If you are a fan of Sesame Street, you will recognize at least one of the voices you just heard. Abby Cadabby is a character who has been around for over a decade now. She is a fairy, but the other voice is brand new to the program and actually something of a rarity in kids programming at large. That character is Julia. Julia is a 4-year-old Muppet with autism. Stacey Gordon is the puppeteer behind Julia and also gives Julia her voice. We reached Mrs. Gordon in New York.

CO: Stacey, we just heard a little bit from Julia. Can you tell us what's going on in that in that tape clip?

STACY GORDON: So Abby comes in and Julia is playing and Julia doesn't communicate the same way that neurotypical kids do. But Abby doesn't mind that, Abby kind of gets Juliet and they figure out what to play together.

CO: What does Julia look like?

SG: Julia is a cute little girl with yellow skin and bright red hair and beautiful green eyes and wonderful little eyelashes.

CO: What do you think children understand about Julia from watching her as a character on Sesame Street?

SG: My hope is that kids will understand some autistic behaviors a little bit better and they won't be at all concerned or worried about them. That they won't be afraid of them. That they'll see a child in their own community who might behave like Julia or might have some of the characteristics that Julia has. And they’ll see that as just another kid. And they'll be able to go up to that child and go oh, that kid might be a little bit like Julia and Abby plays with Julia and I can play with this kid too.

CO: You've said elsewhere that playing the role of Julia and Sesame Street is a good fit for you and in many ways. Why is that?

SG: I've been in the autism community for probably 16 or 17 years. I used to be a habilitatior for kids on the spectrum. And the cause has always been close to my heart. And then when I left that job, I had a child who was later diagnosed as on the spectrum as well. So it's definitely very important for me.

CO: And what did you learn from having your own child who was on the autism spectrum?

SG: Being an autism parent is a round the clock job. When your child goes to school, you're still on call. I think that knowing what my kid goes through helps me bring a better sense of understanding and authenticity to what I can give to Julia.

CO: Then what do you think that the children will understand about children with autism? Because they don't they won't know that that's what it is or just maybe recognize a child in Julia who is like someone that's in their class. So what can they take from that? How can they perhaps behave differently or play with the person in their own class from having watched this episode?

SG: I think that if anything else, I hope that the kids who watched this episode who are neurotypical, really just understand that the kids who might behave like Julia are just like they are. And they might just do things in their own special way. So in the episode we have Julia and Elmo and Abby all painting. Elmo and Abby are using their fingers to finger paint. Julia doesn't like the feeling of paint in her fingers. So she's using a brush, she's doing the same thing that they're doing just in her own Julia way.

CO: What else will kids learn about children with autism from watching episodes with Julia in it?

SG: Well hopefully they'll learn that they're just like they are. They have a lot to contribute. They have their own ideas. They want to be included. They want friends, friends are important to our kids. Friends are important to everyone I think. I think everybody likes to feel included and represented.

CO: And how does Julia get along with other characters on the show — on Sesame Street?

SG: We've established that she has a strong connection with Elmo and Abby and she always has a grown up around that she can turn to you if she gets overwhelmed. But she plays with Elmo and Abby and Big Bird and other characters in earlier episodes too. I think that what I really, really love about seeing Julia progress throughout the season is that we stop calling attention to her autism and we just see her as a regular kid.

CO: It took decades for them to develop this. This has been something they've been trying to do Sesame Street for a long time. Why was it so difficult to find a way to bring a puppet — to bring a character — into the story who would be like a child with autism.?

SG: Well, from my own personal opinion, I think that it's because autism is such a wide range. You know there's a big thing that If you've met one kid with autism, you've met only one kid with autism. And we know that Julia isn't going to represent every child. I've worked with many kids and every single one is different. I guess we don't want to say that Julia represents every child with autism. Julia represents Julia.

CO: Your son, who is on the spectrum, has he seen Julia? Has he seen your role in Sesame Street?

SG: He has when we did the “60 Minutes” interview we got to surprise him. That was the first time he had seen her in person. And he looked at her and was just like oh my gosh, she's huge! I think he wasn't expecting the puppet to be so big.

CO: What does he think of the character?

SG: He loves her. Any time he sees a character with autism in media he is instantly thrilled. Even if the character isn't exactly like him, he's just proud to be represented.

CO: Well that's lovely and I wish you success with Julie and this new role.

SG: Thank you!

CO: Thank you Stacy.

CO: Thank you so much.

JD: Stacey Gordon is the puppeteer behind Julia, Sesame Street's newest character. Julia is the show's first character with autism. We have more on Julia on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Country]

Emma Thompson on Trump

JD: You will no doubt recall the infamous video and hot mic audio that emerged of Donald Trump last October in which the then presidential candidate boasted of his encounters with women. Confessions which if true, were a frank admission of criminal behavior. Mr. Trump, however, quickly dismissed his remarks as what he refers to as “locker room talk”. Well be that as it may, he did make a lasting impression on at least one film celebrity with what you might call his “trailer talk.” Perhaps not the impression he was hoping for though. British actor Emma Thompson shared her memory of a brush with Mr. Trump on a Swedish talk show. Here's how she recalled it.

SOUNDCLIP

EMMA THOMPSON: He asked me out once.

HOST: Donald Trump?

ET: Yeah, you want to hear?

HOST: Come on!

ET: this wasn’t in the pre-interview plan! No, he did.

HOST: What a gift!

ET: I’ll tell you because it was really funny. I was doing a film called “Primary Colors” with John Travolta in Hollywood. And I was in my trailer and it was on the Universal lot. I'd just been divorced and my decree absolute had just come through like the day before, which was no big deal anyway. So the phone rings in my trailer, which it has never done before. I look at it it's like weird. It's like a moose has just entered my trailer. It is like what are you doing? So I lift up the phone and Hi, it’s Donald Trump here. I said Really? Well, can I help you? He said yeah, I wondered if I could offer you some accommodation in one of my Trump Towers. They're really comfortable. And I said why are you offering me somewhere to stay in my trailer? Well you know, I think we will get on very well and maybe we could have dinner sometime. I didn't know what to do with myself. I was on my own and I just said OK, well, I’ll get back to you.

HOST: Just to be clear, you never met him before?

ET: I'd never met him.

HOST: you’ve never met him since?

ET: I’ve never met him since.

HOST: So you didn't you didn't do this?

ET: I wish I had. Think of the stories!

HOST: You could be the First Lady.

JD: That was British actor Emma Thompson last night on the Swedish talk show “Skavlan”. Interestingly, in that film, “Primary Colors”, which she mentions shooting at the time Mr. Trump called her, Ms. Thompson's role was a thinly-veiled dramatization of Hillary Clinton.

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Part 3: Nazi church fire, Philadelphia motel lawsuit

Canada Reads: Sheila Watt-Cloutier

JD: Canada Reads is now only three sleeps away. And tonight, we turn to our final reading. All week, of course, we have been airing excerpts from the five books in this year's competition. This final reading is from a memoir called “the right to be cold”. It was written by Sheila Watt-Cloutier, one of the world's most respected environmental and human rights advocates. She has served as the Canadian president of the Inuit Circumpolar Council. She has been awarded the UN's “Champion of the Earth Award” and she has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. And her work has been driven by a love for her Arctic homeland, for its people and for the cold that she grew up in. In this passage Sheila Watt-Cloutier reflects on the country food of the Canadian north.

SOUNDCLIP

SHEILA WATT CLOUTIER: My return to Kuujjuaq at 18 had also been a return to the diet that nourished me not only physically, but spiritually as well. The animals that are country food connect to the water and the land. To the source of our life to God. Often when I prepared country food, my hands fully covered in blood. I would think that those who garden in the South must feel the same. Their hands covered in the soil in which their vegetables grow. Source is source whether it is the blood of the animals we hunt and eat or the soil in which we grow our food all comes from the same place. The preparation of this food, plucking and gutting geese, cutting up caribou or seal also links us to our forbearers, to our families, to our community. I have often experienced this connection whenever I plucked geese, or cut up my caribou or fish in the years immediately after I lost my sister, my mother and my aunt. I would feel their spirits beside me as I worked. Feelings of grief and loss would immediately surface. My tears would become a cleansing spiritual experience as I slowly let them go. Most devastating was that this food that nourished us in our cold environment that we cherished that had held families and communities together for generations had turned out to be toxic.

JD: Sheila Watt-Cloutier is the author of the memoir “The Right to be Cold”. The book is going to be championed by singer/songwriter Chantal Kreviazuk in this year's Canada Reads debates. So tune in for those beginning Monday. CBC Radio, CBC TV and online. For Show times and more go to www.cbc.ca/books.

[Music: Gone/ folk rock]

Nazi church fire

Guest: Jerome Jankowski

JD: There is only one church in the tiny little town of Nome, North Dakota. And the church had been empty for a little while when it was purchased recently by a man by the name of Craig Cobb. Well, it didn't take long for people to find out who Craig Cobb is. He is a neo-Nazi and his dream is and has been to set up a white supremacist enclave. It looks, however, like he will not be doing that in Nome anytime soon. Because on Wednesday, his church mysteriously burned down. Jerome Jankowski lives next door to the church. We reach Mr. Jankowski in Nome.

CO: Jerome, when you look at your window what's left of that church?

JEROME JANKOWSKI: Just the foundation and the chimney. It’s about a 20 foot chimney and that's it.

CO: When did you notice that the church was on fire?

JJ: Well, I had a dental appointment in Valley City and we got home about 2:15-2:30 at the latest I figured. I had a quick snack; I went out to kitchen sink to get a glass of water. You know when you're drinking, you look out the window. And the church is there, I can see it about 200 feet away. And it was burning and then there was three guys out there, which I knew. So I put my coat and jacket on, I went out there and went to see what happened. Nobody knows and nobody still doesn't know.

CO: But it gutted the whole church?

JJ: Yes ma'am, there's no wood there at all.

CO: What do you know about the man, Craig Cobb, who was trying to make this church into another kind of well I guess a white supremacist institution?

JJ: I really don't know him. I have I've never seen him. I've seen pictures on TV you know. Are you aware of a little town called Leith, west of Bismarck.

CO: Yes.

JJ: OK, they got a lot of problems there. It was on TV, so this is how I got to see him and I've never met him. I don't even know if he's been in town here. I heard he has been.

CO: He has come from Canada. Craig Cobb came to The States from Canada. We covered this story in Leith, North Dakota and at that time, what he'd done he'd bought about a dozen properties and he was wanting to sell them to “nice, young white people,” that's a quote. And that he wanted to turn it into a kind of white supremacist village and he was flying Nazi flags there. People were pretty upset. Did people in Nome know that this was the background when Mr. Cobb arrived?

JJ: Oh well, I did because I remember Leith you know that was on the news down here. And as soon as they said he bought the church, I said you really want him in town? You know they went up and down the street harassing people with guns, am I right?

CO: Well, eventually he was taken in by the police.

JJ: Well you know, he himself wouldn't bother me. I was a military person. I’d do him in quick if he give me trouble. But we have little kids in town. And my feeling is if he brings in all him white supremacists and they start marching up and down the streets. You know they're little kids here and I just don't think they should be exposed to something like that.

CO: Do you know much about his ideas and his vision?

JJ: Well, he picks on small towns. I suppose he thinks he can try to take over the town or something. I don't know what his ideologies are in relation to that? I just know he's a white supremacist and to me, he is so far on the edge that he actually fell off. He's pretty radical.

CO: Well he's already tried to do this in small towns in Nebraska, Kansas, North Dakota and Nome is the latest. And so he bought this church this 108-year-old church.

JJ: It was built in 1908, I own the parsonage. I bought that 19 years ago, so I’m the closest house to that church.

CO: Did you see any signs of him moving things into the church?

JJ: No I didn't, but I heard that he did. I heard he was on the radio and offered a two or three thousand dollar reward for the person who set it on fire.

CO: Did the police or the fire department say that it was arson?

JJ: They have no idea. I haven't heard a thing. I even talked to a couple of people today who were out here.

CO: So they don't know if it was set on fire?

JJ: No, they're still investigating.

CO: What are people in town? What are people in Nome saying about all this?

JJ: Well, I think they're just somewhat afraid and worried. You know if you lived in a small town like I do, would you want him to move in beside you or move in town?

CO: When did people realize that he was the same man who had been in Leith? Who's going to start these pure-white communities?

JJ: Well, I knew right away because I watch a lot of news. The person that sold him the church did not know that was him.

CO: Well did the person who sold him the church know that he was planning to call it, this is this is what I understand, “President Donald J. Trump Creativity Church of Rome”?

JJ: That's the first I've heard of that. No.

CO: And apparently he's calling it the creativity Church of Rome because it's a play on Nome.

JJ: I haven't heard that. Nobody has commented to me. It's a small town; everybody knows what's going on you know, but I sure never heard of that.

CO: Since everybody knows what goes on. Is anyone saying that they suspect it was arson? That someone set it on fire?

JJ: Well, I mean this is what they were talking yesterday when the fire went on. There is no electricity in the building. There's no water in there. I mean that you could use no heat no nothing in there.

CO: So what do you think?

JJ: Well, there's no doubt in my mind. Somebody torched it, but who?

CO: And where do you think of that? That they tortured it?

JJ: Well it had to start some home. That’s why I figured it was torched. I don't know.

CO: How are they reacting to it? Do they think is a good thing or a bad thing?

JJ: It was a landmark you know. And it was a church. you know to me it's almost sacrilegious, but I also realize that they sold the church and it wasn't a church anymore.

CO: So what are you feeling about the church being burned down?

JJ: Sad, I used to look out the kitchen window every morning and have some water. Now all I see is burned grass, a cement foundation and a chimney. But it wasn't used for anything. I'm sure to some people it's a sigh of relief, but the church is something else. It bothers me.

CO: Well, thanks for telling us what happened in Nome.

JJ: You have a great day ma'am.

CO: You too Jerome, thanks.

We reached Jerome Jankowski in Nome, North Dakota. Mr. Jankowski lives next door to the church that mysteriously burned down earlier this week. It had recently been purchased by neo-Nazi Craig Cobb, who wanted the name it “The President Donald J. Trump Creativity Church of Rome”. You can learn more on this story on our website: wwwcbc.c/aih.

Philadelphia motel lawsuit

Guest: Nadeem Bezar

She was just 14-years-old and she was forced to have sex with men in a motel room. And now, that unnamed woman is 17-years-old. She has just filed a lawsuit in a Philadelphia court against the owner of that motel. It is the first of its kind under the 2014 Pennsylvania human trafficking law. Nadeem Bezar is the attorney for the woman who is known only as “MB” we reached Mr. Bezar in Philadelphia. And a warning: the details of this story are disturbing.

CO: Mr. Bezar, how does your client — this young girl — how does she describe what happened to her at this hotel?

NADEEM BEZAR: She was a young girl, only 14-years-old at the time that she had become sort of disconnected with her family. She ends up fending for herself and at one point becoming homeless and running with the wrong crowd in a crowd that led her to this lifestyle. She's taken to this hotel/motel and is forced into a room with other young girls and forced to do sexual acts on men that are coming in through the hotel — that the hotel is aware of — and really was at no liberty to leave the hotel while she was there.

CO: And this went on weeks and months at a time according to the lawsuit this is the allegations and as many as 1,000 men she was subjected to?

NB: So the tenure at the hotel went on for days and weeks at a time. It's important to note that she was not able to leave. There were threats if she had left the hotel. You know spending quite a bit of time in the room and at different times with different people coming in and out of the room. You know there's been a lot of attention to the exact number. And I think first and foremost, one is too many if one is forced to do these types of things — even one is too many. But it was in the order of quite a few men.

CO: A number of men had been convicted of the sexual abuse of this young woman at this motel and they're in prison. Why are you pursuing this as a lawsuit against the hotel itself?

NB: So the traffickers have been arrested, indicted and either convicted or pled guilty to the crimes of trafficking and other crimes. In terms of hotel/motel liability, this is a Pennsylvania statute that provides not just for criminal remedies against those that harbor or compel individuals into trafficking, but civil remedies. And that is the notion in civil court is to financially tag the hotel/motel owners for their involvement, their harboring, their complicity in involving in keeping young children in these hotels and allowing these activities to go on when they know they're going on.

CO: This hotel, The Roosevelt Inn, this wasn't just a one occasion or something that just happened in one part of the hotel that was shockingly different. In the legal documents it describes what this place was like. Can you just tell us what kinds of activities were going on in this motel?

NB: So I can tell you at least from the perspective of our case, the hotel is a two story building with maybe about 100 rooms. That there are multiple — maybe two — entrances to the hotel — one going right by a front desk. There has been publications in other news stories and reviews on different websites about how this hotel was run and the type of activity that went on in the hotel. I understand there are reviews posted about continuing criminal activity including drugs and solicitation, although again, that's available for everyone to review. I think the District Attorney's office has talked about other trafficking incidents coming out of this hotel. It is a place where it appears bad stuff has happened both before and after my client's involvement there.

CO: There are reviews on Yelp and TripAdvisor online that describe the place as, “drug infested, crime ridden, prostitution laced. Where there's the check-in desk has bullet proof glass it's an inch thick.” How many girls were being treated this way in addition to your client?

NB: So we know that there were other girls and even at times women involved at this motel and being trafficked. We also know that since the filing a lawsuit, other people have come forward and have been quite candidly willing to discuss their involvement at this particular location. I don't know. It would be difficult for me to sort of approximate the number of people involved here.

CO; And are others likely to join this lawsuit with “MB”?

NB: Right now, it is just our client that we're representing in this lawsuit against the hotel, its proprietors and its management company that there may be other victims of trafficking that the hotel knew about. That's something that we'll continue to investigate.

CO: Has this happened before? Has there been a lawsuit against the motel or hotel where these kinds of things go on in Philadelphia or any place else? Do you know if there's a precedent for this?

NB: I am unaware of any other lawsuits involving civil liabilities in Pennsylvania under this statute.

CO: And what message do you think this will send?

NB: If you're going to run this type of business, make sure you have some idea of what's occurring in your hallways and if you know of this type of illegal activity, particularly involving children, you better do something about it.

CO; You yourself as an attorney, you’re not a stranger to taking on the cases of young people who have been sexually abused and it can be very difficult. What do you think would be the biggest challenge for you in this case?

NB: As far as this case goes, I think it's probably just my involvement and my interaction with my client and her family. I do handle quite a few cases where children have been harmed; young adults have been harmed both physically and sexually abused. I think they're to a certain extent as sad as it is they're rewarding because you get to spend time with the most vulnerable, horribly affected part of a population. Hopefully making changes or taking steps in the right direction to help these children.

CO: And this this girl, who is now 17 and we know her as “MB” by these initials. How she doing now?

NB: Well, her life has been forever altered. She is just absolutely devastated by what has happened to her and at the same time, she's trying to get her life back moving in a certain direction. She is receiving services through the Department of Human Services. She is getting therapy. She is trying to sort of remand a child's life.

CO: and does she have family?

NB: She does have family and thus far, they've been very supportive of her efforts in trying to put the pieces back together.

CO: Mr. Bezar, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

NB: Thank you very much Carol. Thank you for having me.

JD: We reached Nadeem Bezar in Philidelphia.

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March 24, 2017 episode transcript

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