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The Current Transcript for February 28, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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Standard treatment is, first of all, there will be silence the moment it's realized that there's a baby. Nobody talks about it again. And then kind of secret arrangements start.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Julius Kaggwa knows what happens to babies born intersex in Uganda. If they survive, their lives are shrouded in secrecy and fear. That was his life right into his teens. A child whose mother insisted he be a girl, who tried to protect him. But Julius Kaggwa needed to be the man that he is today, with a voice that refused to be silent about who he is. Now he travels the world advocating for intersex individuals, because as he points out, intersex people aren't just in Uganda, they are among us in every society. Hear Julius Kaggwa on his own struggles and triumphs in an hour. Also today, what goes around is still going around.

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I own this store called Championship Vinyl. I get by because the people make a special effort to shop here. Mostly young men who spend all their time looking for deleted Smith singles and original Frank Zappa albums.

AMT: Gone are the days when vinyl enthusiasts were quirky characters in the movies. In fact, vinyl is so vital to so many that the HMV outlets just closed across Canada have been taken over by a company with plans to focus on vinyl record sales. And Atlantic Canada’s first vinyl pressing plant will be up and running this spring. In half an hour, we're in tune with a vinyl revival. And..

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BARACK OBAMA: The day after Gaddafi is gone, when everybody’s feeling good and everybody’s holding up posters saying thank you America, at that moment, there has to be a much more aggressive effort to rebuild society.

AMT: Barack Obama has said the biggest mistake of his presidency was not planning enough for what would follow in Libya. Six years after a revolutionary uprising, Libyans outside trying to help family inside say we have not learned from those mistakes. We're starting there. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current.

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'I will give up a kidney': Canadian seeks aid for family trapped in Libyan conflict

Guests: Ali Hamza, Mohamed Eljarh

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[Sound: bomb blasts and gunfire, men screaming]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: That is the sound of revolution on the streets of Libya six years ago this month. It was February of 2011 that the Arab spring movement came into bloom and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's Libya. The people who took to the streets then were eventually joined by American, European and Canadian airpower, eventually toppling Colonel Gaddafi's regime and ushering in the country's next chapter. But despite the optimism at the time, the reality of life in Libya over the last six years has been anything but sunny. Its economy is in tatters. Multiple governments compete for control, while militias compete for terrain. It’s shores have become ground zero for migrants and traffickers. In fact, today UNICEF has released a report saying migrants, especially women and children, end up raped and starved and in detention in quote, “living hellholes”. Libya in the eyes of many has become a failed state. And there are growing calls for Canada to play an immediate role in addressing the dire state of affairs. Ali Hamza is one Libyan-Canadian who's taken matters into his own hands. He's doing whatever he can to help his ailing mother and five siblings, who are trapped in the Ganfouda neighbourhood of Benghazi. We have reached Ali Hamza in Istanbul, Turkey. Hello.

ALI HAMZA: Hello. Good morning Anna Maria.

AMT: What are you hearing from your mother and siblings in that district of Benghazi?

ALI HAMZA: You know, that it's very difficult for a number of days now, getting into a number of weeks. Especially with regard to water, drinking water and then food and then safety, you know.

AMT: What are you hearing that life is like for them?

ALI HAMZA: Life is very difficult. Survival is the question. Drinking water is not allowed in and they get to drinking water, they got drinking water like a while back or days ago from puddles. You know, there was some rain plants are used as a supply of some, you know, moisture and plants are used for food.

AMT: When you say plants, what do you mean plants? You're not talking gardens.

ALI HAMZA: No. We're talking like a leafs of some wild plants and grass and things like that, you know.

AMT: Because they can't get any other food right now?

ALI HAMZA: There is no food allowed in and nobody stood firm to give the permission to have it pass through and to the families.

AMT: So are they surrounded? Why can't they get out of that area?

ALI HAMZA: They are surrounded and, you know, the dominant surrounding force there is known as the Libyan National Army. And it's really also made of, you know, multiple military factions. Sometimes some of them, at least some of them their hostility towards the families crosses into illegal territory.

AMT: So you're in Turkey with your wife and your four youngest kids. What are you trying to do?

ALI HAMZA: We're trying to do really, we are really open to all options. You know, we are able to supply the water and the food on our expense, and basic medicines to the 30 families or so, a human rights group on the 13th of February estimated them to be 30 families. And we are ready to do that on our own if we can find a way, a permission to go there. We are willing to go there ourself.

AMT: With aid. You want to go in there with some aid for them?

ALI HAMZA: With some aid, with some aid. Exactly.

AMT: Where are you getting the money to collect all the aid? What have you done?

ALI HAMZA: You know, like, I'm on good terms with RBC, Visa and MBNA, MasterCard, they know my profile, I always pay the statement on time for many many many years.

AMT: So you're telling me you're spending your own money to try to get aid in there?

ALI HAMZA: Yes. Yes I’m spending my money and my car is being auctioned, you know.

AMT: So you're collecting money and doing this on your own, but you want the Canadian government to help you do you not?

ALI HAMZA: Definitely.

AMT: You have been in touch with Global Affairs Canada, what have they told you?

ALI HAMZA: They have told me over a span of several months that they are very concerned. But it's very insufficient and very difficult, very difficult for me to accept. I'm in contact with the government as of July 2016. I’ve asked them about a cease fire, I’ve asked them about humanitarian aid. In September, Amnesty International started reporting that people eat expired food. And then came Human Rights Watch and confirmed the same, and medical supplies are gone. So I started asking for aid and for a safe, you know, exit, as per international law. And they’re becoming more serious in terms of, you know, on the scale of human rights and human life and urgent needs.

AMT: We asked Global Affairs Canada for an interview and no one was available to us today. But I'd like to read you part of a statement they sent. “Canada is deeply concerned,” this is a quote, “Canada is deeply concerned with the ongoing armed conflict in Libya and its humanitarian impact on civilians, including in the district of Ganfouda. We continue to work closely with the UN and monitor the situation in Ganfouda.” That's the quote. They also told us they have given more than 2.4 million dollars in aid to Libya in the last year. Do you think that has any of that gone to the people that you care about?

ALI HAMZA: No, no not at all. There has been no single shipment of aid arranged through the UN to Ganfouda.

AMT: So what--

ALI HAMZA: Not a single shipment of aid since July of last year.

AMT: What has it been like then for you to watch Libya from afar for the last six years?

ALI HAMZA: Very very painful, very disturbing to see that I am a Canadian who sees this.

AMT: How worried are you about your family?

ALI HAMZA: Even unable to find words. I'm not able to ask about them. I'm worried. I'm worried about the answer that I will get. So that's why, you know, that's why I try to give them, if I can, I give them every piece of my part, of my body just to have them survive this, you know. And that's my appeal in Turkey.

AMT: You're telling me you would give up a kidney to the country, to someone in the country that helps you help your family?

ALI HAMZA: I will give up a kidney, I will you give up if the doctors allow, part of my liver to a country that delivers water to them and takes them to safety within Libya. Yes, I will do that.

AMT: Mr. Hamza, we have to leave it there. Thank you for speaking with me.

ALI HAMZA: I thank you for the opportunity and many thanks to CBC Anna Maria.

AMT: Okay, bye bye.

ALI HAMZA: Bye now.

AMT: Ali Hamza is a Libyan-Canadian. He and his family live in Mississauga. They're trying to get aid to his family, he says they're trapped in the Ganfouda district of Benghazi, Libya. We reached him in Istanbul, Turkey. We did request an interview with Martin Kobler the head of the UN Support Mission in Libya. He was not available. Now, for Ali Hamza and everyone with family in Libya, the country's instability is personal. It's also an issue with wide ranging and serious implications beyond the borders of Libya, across Africa, Europe, and beyond. Mohamed Eljarh is a non-resident fellow at the Rafik Hariri Center for the Middle East. That's part of the Atlantic Council, a nonpartisan think tank that promotes the values of the Atlantic Treaty, though it is separate from NATO. Mohamed Eljarh joins us from Tobruk, Libya. Hello.

MOHAMED ELJARH: Hi.

AMT: Well, what's your reaction to what you just heard? That gentleman is willing to give up a kidney or more just to get someone to try to get aid into his family.

MOHAMED ELJARH: It is extremely disheartening that many families have been affected since 2011.

AMT: How would you describe the situation for civilians in Benghazi?

MOHAMED ELJARH: Yes, it depends where you are in Benghazi. I was in Benghazi a couple of weeks ago, and the parts that are under the control of the Libyan National Army life is normal, where people go to restaurants and going about their own lives as normal. For example, recently on the 15th of February this month, the head of the British Arab Council visited, with a number of companies, visited Benghazi and met with the AGECO for example, the oil company in the city, where he held some talks there about how businesses can now return to Benghazi. However, there is still fighting that's taking place in very specific areas within Benghazi, namely the Souq al-Hout area and also Sabri area, parts of Sabri area and the 12 blocks of Ganfouda.

AMT: So despite the fact that businesses are being wined and dined, there are still civilians at risk there is what you're telling me?

MOHAMED ELJARH: There are still some civilians at risk in some of the areas there. It is a very difficult situation because the Libyan National Army is offering ways out for women and children under the age of 15 to leave. However, these terms are not being accepted by the families that are stuck in. So for a mom to leave her kids who are older than 15 years old is a difficult choice to make.

AMT: It sounds very ominous obviously if you let the women and children go and don't let the men go.

MOHAMED ELJARH: It is, yep.

AMT: But let me ask you a wider issue then, what about citizens across Libya as a whole? What are the main problems that they're facing right now?

MOHAMED ELJARH: The situation in Libya in general is difficult from an economic point of view. The country is suffering from a severe cash liquidity crisis. It is also the prices have also gone up, for example the exchange rate from Libyan dinar to US dollars is four times higher than the official rate. And that meant that the prices of basic goods have gone up and it means that many more Libyans are now under the poverty line, if you like. And the reasons for that is the ongoing political divisions and struggle between the various competing governments in the country.

AMT: And of course, we have the report from UNICEF just today that says there is a quarter of a million migrants in Libya as of last September, most of whom are languishing in unsanitary, disease-ridden detention centres. And UNICEF describes them as no more than forced labour camps and makeshift prisons. Is Libya a failed state?

MOHAMED ELJARH: Libya is definitely a failed state. A state that has three different competing governments is definitely a failed state.

AMT: And so what role does the international community, including organizations such as NATO and the UN have to play in Libya now?

MOHAMED ELJARH: I believe that they need to learn the lessons from their intervention in 2011 and the failure to have a post intervention strategy. Second of all, they need to make sure that they stop regional players from meddling in Libyan affairs out of their own national interests that are not necessarily Libya's own interests. It is also important that the various countries including organizations such as NATO play a more proactive role when it comes to Libya, and that they need to have some mechanisms by which they can pressure those who are waging the wars in Libya to stop what they are doing. They need to push for a compromise between the key players that can make peace happen in Libya.

AMT: How much of the blame for Libya's current situation can be laid at the feet of that NATO-led 2011 military intervention?

MOHAMED ELJARH: There is a lot of blame to go around. First of all, on Libya's transitional leaders and political groups, et cetera, that have engaged in a struggle over power and resources over the last few years, instead of engaging in a positive state and nation building exercise. But also there is a lot of blame to go to NATO and also the international community, because they did help bring the Gaddafi regime down and they failed to help find an alternative for that regime with all its mishaps, et cetera. So there is a lot of blame to go around and I think the fact that Libya was allowed to become a safe haven for malicious terrorist groups, and also a country that's awash with millions of pieces of weapons is definitely something that the NATO countries, and those that intervened in 2011 to take some of the blames of a lot it, maybe.

AMT: And from where you are, do you see any enthusiasm at all on the international community for actually doing something about this then?

MOHAMED ELJARH: I don't think there is a lot of enthusiasm in the West at the moment. Europe is going through a lot of problems and many elections are looming up in France, Germany, and the Netherlands, for example. And also in the United States there has been a change in administration and there is no clarity from the Trump administration with regards to what it wants to do in Libya or what role it wants to play. And I think 2017 is most likely going to be the year that Russia becomes the dominant player in Libya, and they have already given signs that they are doing just that this year. But generally, I don’t think that the regional or international environment is at the moment conducive of any successful efforts to bring the Libyan conflict to an end.

AMT: Mohamed Eljarh, thank you for your insights.

MOHAMED ELJARH: Thank you.

AMT: Mohamed Eljarh, a non-resident fellow at the Rafik Hariri Center for the Middle East. It's part of the Atlantic Council, a nonpartisan think tank. He joined us from Tobruk, Libya.

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AMT: Got a couple of minutes to switch gears and give a bit of your feedback over a story from Friday on The Current. It may not have seemed like the media's topic, but it gave you a lot to chew on. Sorry about that. I am referring to the international furor sparked by the Icelandic president's suggestion that he would ban pineapple as a pizza topping if only he had the power to do that. We sought out the expert opinion of Toronto pizza chef and restaurateur Massimo Capra, owner and chef Capra’s Kitchen in Toronto, for his take on this deliciously divisive debate. And while he wasn't totally against the idea of pineapple on a pizza, do not expect him to whip you up a Hawaiian pie anytime soon.

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The best thing to do is really not to have the ingredient in house, otherwise you’re going to get ridden with guilt. So if you don’t have the pineapple, I'm not going to go out and buy pineapple for you, I mean, come on. [laughs] You know what I mean? So I don't have pineapple and I don't have French fries in my restaurant, I mean, that's as simple as that.

AMT: Well then we heard from you.

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