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The AIH Transcript for January 10, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello I'm Helen Mann.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

HM: An education in anguish. She barely survived the La Loche school shooting. Now, a year into her recovery, a Saskatchewan teacher says it's time her community got the help it was guaranteed.

JD: Shuffling his Trump card. Days before the new U.S. president takes office, Justin Trudeau rejigs his cabinet to include a new foreign minister whose focus thus far has been entirely on trade.

HM: Next of kin. Shaan Taseer's father was murdered after being accused of blasphemy. Now the Pakistani activist says he's under a fatwa himself after repeating a familiar and familial refrain.

JD: Hearing ensnared. Donald Trump's pick for Attorney General was put through his paces by Senators today, including some pointed questions about the President-elect's own conduct with women.

HM: Food chains. A Florida volunteer is arrested for feeding homeless people in a Tampa park, but he says he and his colleagues won't let a little thing like being arrested stop them from being kind.

JD: And...9021...don't blow my cover. A former Beverly Hills 90210 star says her fight to prevent the publication of actors' ages is based on her own experience and a belief in women's rights.
As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that never acts its age.

[Music]

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Part 1: La Loche anniversary, cabinet shuffle, IMDB age fight

La Loche anniversary

Guest: Charlene Klyne

JD: It's been almost a year since a young man walked into the La Loche high school with a gun and began to shoot. A teacher and a teacher's assistant were killed. Several more people were injured. Last October, a 17-year-old boy pleaded guilty.
In the wake of the tragedy, the community, and those affected by the shooting, were promised lot of support, but now they feel those promises have not been fulfilled. Charlene Klyne was a substitute teacher who was shot at the school that day. We reached Ms. Klyne in Saskatoon.

HM: Charlene Klein, I can imagine this has been a very difficult year for you. How are you holding up these days?

CHARLENE KLYNE: I have good days and bad days. And when they're bad, they can be very bad. Yeah I don't know some days what to do. Still I’m seeing lots of doctors.

HM: Can you explain for us the wounds that you suffered?

CK: Yeah. I was shot from my chest up. I lost my eye sight. He shot me in the face, neck, chest, arm because it was pellets so they spread. They spread out. I lost my eyesight in my left eye 100 percent. My right eye I can see like, they say five percent. And I had a large amount of pellets in my throat area obviously my voice never used to be this raspy but my friends say “your voice is raspy now.” And I said “Well, I can't do anything about it.” Apparently I have pellets next to my lungs and hearts, in the lining of the muscles. And from what I understand is, if the pellets would have moved any further, when I was initially shot, it could have killed me because I would have bled out on the floor in the classroom.

HM: I imagine you replay it in your mind.

CK: I do.

HM: It must be difficult to recount it to other people so I hate to ask in a way, but it can you tell us what happened to you last January? Can you remember what the circumstances of that afternoon?

CK: Well, unfortunately on Friday afternoons, especially when it's cold, we have a very few students turn out, like it's a slow count right. And I know I was sitting in the classroom and the tutor was in the classroom, Marie Janvier with me. And I was going, God like, there's nobody in the hallways, what's going on? And the classroom we were in is far away from where most of the shooting had happened.
Next thing I know was our classroom door’s being slammed and told to stay in. I looked at Marie and I said, I wonder what that's all about. Next thing I know, a student is standing at my door looking at me.
So I turned to see what he was doing, you know like if he was leaving or what he was doing, right? And as I turned, I see him raise the gun and fire at me.
And in those few seconds before it hit me I thought, I'm dead because you know when you get shot and you're sitting at a desk and all that they have to aim at is from your chest up what are your chances of survival? Slim to none.

HM: Were your eyes affected right away?

CK: Instantly. Instantly I could not see instantly. And to me like everything went red. And I said to Marie, I said I think I've been shot. And she gets up and she comes over to me and I've known her for years. You know like I remember subbing her as a student, and she lived down the street from us, so I knew her quite well. And then she's crying, and she oh my god you're so hurt, you're so hurt. And then she walked away from what I understand. She went to the door and she was going to go for help. And she was running down there, got to the door and met him. She yelled at him, “What are you doing? Why are you doing this? You need to stop. This is stupid.” That's what I've been told that she said. And then they… he shot her. He shot her.

CK: I understand Maria died as a result of her wounds.

HM: Maria died instantly because he shot her pretty much like three to four feet away from him. How have you dealt with losing her?

CK: I think about her all the time. And I would have never told her to leave the classroom. And it's just the way Maria was. She wanted to help, right? She ran to get help.

HM: After the shooting, you know it seemed like all eyes were on La Loche. We heard so many news stories. I'm just wondering what kind of support you were promised at the time.

CK: We were told that our support would be that we wouldn't have to worry about paying any bills, that we'd have all the support that we needed, that we wouldn't have to worry about anything, and that's all we've done since that day.

HM: So is any of that support come through?

CK: No. Nope. I had that interview in the end of September and Buckley Belanger was at my side. He has since tried to bring it up in the house, and he keeps getting told to drop it. Leave it as it is.

HM: This is your member?

CK: Yeah, our MLA. Georgina Jolibois, who is our MP, she's that with me and brought me forms to fill out. And it's just like, it’s always forms, forms, forms, forms.

HM: How does that add to your stress and how are you dealing with this?

CK: It gets very stressful. You know like you just don't know whether you're coming or going. If you're going to have enough money to make the bills, you know? And we were told to sell our vehicles and I says that's not right. Why should we have to suffer? This isn't our fault. I sure the hell wouldn't have gone to work that day if I would have known I was going to be shot and lose my eyesight and have to deal with this for the rest of my life. You know? I know when I was laying on the floor in the classroom, all I could think about is my family. Like what are they going to do? What are we going to do?

HM: I'd like to come forward a little bit to what's happening now. I understand that you are friends with the acting principal of the school. I'm wondering what you're hearing from him about how the kids are dealing with what happened now that it's almost been a year.

CK: I think the kids… they’re sort of resilient. But I know there's got to be days, because the classroom where Maria and I were shot is still boarded up and they like… they have to walk by it all the time. They know what happened there. They want to go on, but I'm sure there's a lot that don't sleep at night. If they hear sounds in the classroom, I'm sure that they're… you know, like you hear something in the hallways, something banging. I'm sure they're going to be hiding.

HM: Do you know if they're getting emotional support and counseling? Well I know that they're getting counseling for sure. But from what I understand is a lot of the counseling is happening where this week you'll have one counselor, and next week it'll be somebody else so you have to tell the story all over again.

CK: As we as we hear about this anniversary in the coming days, what do you want Canadians to know about what you and the others affected are going through now?

HM: Well they need support. They need housing badly up there. There's so lack of housing. There's like three or four families living in a house, in a small house. It's just… it's unbelievable. There's no jobs, you know like, there just isn't any work around. So like, there's nothing for people to do.

CK: Ms. Klyne, I wish you all the best with your further recovery. Thank you for speaking with us.

HM: Not a problem. Take care.

CK: Take care, Helen. Bye.

JD: Charlene Klyne was a substitute teacher at La Loche Community School. We reached her Saskatoon. A teenaged boy has pleaded guilty to two counts of first degree murder, two counts of second degree murder, and seven counts of attempted murder. His sentencing hearing is scheduled for May.

[Music]

Sessions Confirmation

JD: The confirmation hearing for Donald Trump's pick for U.S. attorney-general, Jeff Sessions, started today. And the proceedings were interrupted a number of times by protestors:

SOUNDCLIP

General Jeff Sessions, you are racist. You have ties to the KKK. [unintelligible] Black lives matter.

JD: Accusations of bigotry have long trailed Senator Sessions. In 1986, he was denied a seat on the federal bench because of allegations of racial discrimination. Today, he told the hearing that he "abhorred" the Ku Klux Klan and what it represents.
The Senator was grilled on a variety of subjects during the hearing. He distanced himself from some of the President-elect's campaign statements, saying that waterboarding is torture and is illegal, and that there should be no bans on Muslims entering the country. And he said he would recuse himself from any possible prosecution of Hillary Clinton.
Then, it was Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy's turn to question Senator Sessions. He asked about the infamous video of President-elect Trump talking about groping women:

SOUNDCLIP

PATRICK LEAHY: Is grabbing a woman by her genitals without her consent, is that sexual assault? Clearly it would be. If a sitting President or any other high federal official was accused of committing what the President-elect described in a context in which it could be federally prosecuted, would you be able to prosecute and investigate?

JEFF SESSIONS: The President is subject to certain lawful restrictions and they would be required to be applied by the appropriate law enforcement official if appropriate, yes.

PL: And the conduct described based on the description would be sexual assault.

JS: Well the confusion about the question as a hypothetical question and it related to what was said on the tape. I did not remember at the time whether this was suggested to be an unaccepted, unwanted, would certainly meet the definition, if that’s what the tape said –

PL: My question is very simple: Is grabbing a woman by the genitals without her consent… is that sexual assault?

JS: Yes.

PL: Thank you.

JD: That was Jeff Sessions being grilled at a confirmation hearing earlier today by Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy. Mr. Sessions is the Donald Trump's pick for US Attorney-General.

[Music]

Cabinet shuffle

Guest: Kady O’Malley

JD: Chrystia Freeland is marking a big promotion today. But right out of the gate, Canada's new Minister of Foreign Affairs is going to have some global forces to contend with. Ms. Freeland was sworn in this afternoon, less than two weeks before Donald Trump's inauguration in the U.S. There's also the matter of Russia. The Kremlin put Minister Freeland on its sanctions list in 2014. Here she is speaking about that after today's ceremony.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: I know Russia well. I lived in Moscow for four years and really, really enjoyed it. And I have a really deep love for the Russian language and Russian culture. And I am a very strong supporter of our government's view that it is important to engage with all countries around the world, very much including Russia. And so I feel with my background in Russia, I am going to be well-positioned to be a member of our government's engagement there.

VOICE: You just can't travel there, though.

CF: As I said that's a question for Moscow.

JD: Chrystia Freeland is not the only minister shuffled today. She's replacing Stephane Dion who announced this afternoon that he'll be leaving federal politics altogether. Kady O'Malley has been watching it all. She writes about Parliament Hill for the Ottawa Citizen. We reached Kady O’Malley in Ottawa.

HM: Kady O'Malley, what do you think Chrystia Freeland brings to the job of the Foreign Affairs Minister that Stefane Dion wasn't able to achieve?

KADY OMALLEY: She has a real passion for foreign affairs in general, which we actually got a chance to see during her previous portfolio, which was in international trade, which is actually pretty close. I mean a lot of the things she was doing are probably quite similar to what she's going to be expected to do as Foreign Affairs Minister.
She's seen as someone who has both the contacts and the networks and the ability to get to know people quickly. She's very personable, not which isn't to say that Stephane Dion was sort of a cranky hermit, but I think there was a sense that perhaps he didn't have quite the right personality for kind of really getting out there and she has definitely proven herself and I think the Prime Minister decided, hey she's done a good job. Let's see what she does on a wider scale.

HM: And she's also going to retain some of the portfolio from before and that she will maintain the Canada U.S. trade relationship as Foreign Minister.

KO: Yeah that's a huge responsibility. She's basically become the point woman for the Canada U.S. relationship, only trumped – no pun intended– by the prime minister and whatever relationship he ends up carving up with the president. But other than that, it's Freeland. She is the number two and I don't think we've had a situation like that. There were foreign affairs ministers who were strong and who had a lot of autonomy, but not quite to the degree that I think we're seeing here now.

HM: She will be shaking hands eventually with whoever the new secretary of state is in the United States. Of course, of he's confirmed, that's going to be Rex Tillerson. What are the potential challenges she is going to face in dealing with the Trump administration?

KO: Her first priority is going to be making sure they don't forget Canada exists. Canada very rarely comes up unless it’s a Canadian making the comments. So I suspect she'll go down to Washington D.C., spend some time there, and actually try to make it clear that boy do we not want to be forgotten. We're part of NAFTA, and we're an important trading partner for the U.S. and we want to make sure that you guys know that.

HM: Well in fact you said something in this news conference this afternoon about trying to forge personal relationships with her peers in the Trump administration. Does that sound like the way this thing generally works?

KO: Well you know Chrystia Freeland sort of takes her own twist on the job. A great story that's been printed in a couple of programs about her was when she had an entire EU delegation over to her house in Toronto for a barbecue to have negotiations. So, that's definitely part and parcel with her style. How that sort of meshes with what we see with the Trump administration, I guess we're going to find out but there are a whole lot of question marks.

HM: OK and what about where Russia fits into this. We heard that clip of Freeland talking about the fact that she loves the Russian culture, she speaks Russian, among other languages. And yet she's going to be banned from traveling there. What are the implications of that.

KO: I was trying to think, when was the last time a foreign affairs minister actually went to Russia? And I couldn't come up with one off the top of my head. So I don't think it's a deal breaker. It's not like, say being on a no-fly list to Washington. It's more symbolic I think, than anything else but it raises some interesting questions. In some ways, this shuffle was being portrayed as the team Trudeau getting ready for team Trump and sort of putting people in place. But putting someone in this position who is very strongly pro-Ukraine, not anti-Russia, but if there's ever a conflict between Russia and Ukraine, you can pretty well guess which side Chrystia Freeland is going to be on. There seems to be a bit of a bite in this. It's both, you know, an attempt to cue up the our presence in the U.S. but not just capitulating.

HM: OK. Let's talk about Freeland's predecessor, Stephane Dion. Just as she was being sworn in, he released a letter announcing his departure from federal politics. He wrote, as is the prime minister's privilege, he has just entrusted this great responsibility, his former position, to another person. What do we know about how he's taking this news?

KO: Yeah well it does sound like he's taking it particularly well. This is the first time in a while that I can recall were an existing cabinet minister has seemed quite so embittered about the situation. Of course there was all this sort of drama around this rumor, reports, that he had been offered the ambassadorship to the European Union and Germany. Apparently he, you know, didn't seem to want that and so… I do get the sense that perhaps Stephane Dion is not particularly thrilled with the way this has all turned out. I mean to be honest, if the prime minister did want to get him out, a graceful way to do it would give him another job. That's a pretty traditional way of sort of shuffling someone out with dignity. Clearly Stephane Dion isn't willing to take that particular offer. Maybe that will change tomorrow.

HM: The other long time liberal veteran being shuffled today is John McCallum. He's leaving politics as well. He's going to be Canada's ambassador to China. What do you think the prime minister is thinking there in sending him to Beijing?

KO: Well clearly Beijing is going to be a very important ambassadorial post, again on the trade front but also in terms of diplomacy in general. You got to think that if you see an end coming to your political life, you could do worse than kind of going out on top as a minister that everyone would look at and say gosh, if was such a good minister, why is he leaving? You prefer that to the reverse, which perhaps, you know, not to point to Stephane Dion, but that would be the other example. I think that from McCallum’s perspective this is probably not a bad way to get out.

HM: Now there are some fresh faces as well. Ahmed Hussen will be taking over as the first Somali Canadian in cabinet from Mr. McCallum, the immigration portfolio. Is there a message there too about how we feel about immigrants and refugees to our country maybe?

KO: I think so. I think… we were looking at the numbers and we now have two people in cabinet that came here as refugees which is I think pretty unprecedented in terms of cabinet ratio and breakdown. It is an enormous file. It's always going to be a priority, even… I mean when McCallum took over, it was right in the middle of the Syrian refugee, the first influx, so there was really a lot of focus, but it's not like those challenges ever really go away. So it is a major compliment to him frankly that the prime minister saw fit to sort of pluck him out from rookiedom and put him in Cabinet in this very senior job from the start. I don't know we'll see how it all works out.

HM: Yeah well there are other moves, but we don't have time to discuss them. Maybe another time. Thanks so much Kady.

KO: Thanks so much, have a good day.

HM: OK bye.

JD: Kady O'Malley covers Parliament Hill for the Ottawa Citizen. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music]

IMDB age fight

Guest: Gabrielle Carteris

JD: It is no secret whatsoever that age can be a career killer in Hollywood – especially, and sadly, especially, if you're a woman. Plum roles dry up fast for women over 30-years-old, even for big name stars like Anne Hathaway, Meryl Streep, or Emma Thompson.
But a new California law meant to combat age discrimination came into effect this month. It requires the popular industry website IMDb to remove birthdates from its profiles of actors. IMDb is refusing to do that, and has gone to court to fight the change.
Gabrielle Carteris is the president of the Screen Actors Guild. She also played a teenager in the '90s hit show "Beverly Hills 90210" when she was in her thirties. We reached Ms. Carteris in L.A.

HM: Ms. Carteris, IMDB is doing everything it can to fight this change. Why is it so important to you that they comply?

GABRIELLE CARTERIS: You know it's important, not just for me but actually for everybody. You know the idea that we would support any kind of age discrimination is for me is appalling. It's important that everybody have an opportunity to go and be seen to their full potential without being judged by their age.

HM: You were cast as Andrea on 90210 in 1990. That was long before IMDB or the Internet as we know it any way existed. Did the casting directors realize how old you were at the time?

GC: No. When I auditioned for 90210 at that time I was 29 years old, I was auditioning for the role of a 16-year-old. And believe me, if they had known my age, I never would have gotten the opportunity to walk in that room and audition for the character. In fact I was told several years after 90210 started becoming successful when the producers did find out my age. They said that if we had known how old you are, we never would have brought you into that room. And so for me, that was the most profound change in my life to be able, and honour, to be able to play a role on such an iconic show and without having that opportunity, doesn't mean my life wouldn’t have been special, but you know I was being defined absolutely by my talent and ability at that time, without any kind of judgments my age, and that’s important.

HM: Most of us outside your industry look at IMDB for general information about movies, about actors that we like, that sort of thing, but how is it used within the business. How do how the casting directors look at it?

GC: Well IMDB is used as a casting or a hiring site. So when somebody is being submitted for an audition, a casting director or a producer, director, writer might go look online because they want to see the credits of the body of work that person has done. And what happens is, the first thing that comes up is the person's age. So even when people aren't considering the age is an issue, they look and they go ‘oh I didn't know they were that old. I’m not going to bring them in for that.’ Already, you’ve cut off their opportunity to be able to come in and be seen.

HM: Now if I go on IMDB right now, I can see your birth date. But as I understand it, if an actor asks the site to take the information down, it's supposed to comply. Have you made that request yourself?

GC: Yes, I actually, I think it's been sent in already. For me, it doesn't matter though. People already know my age. It's not for the person who's known already, for the celebrity. This is truly something that affects the working class actor. This really affects the person who's just looking to go in and be seen so that they can have the possibility being hired. Once you're a celebrity, there's all millions of different ways to be able to discover somebody's age. So it's not about that. It's not about limiting the Internet, it's not about, you know, ending freedom of speech. It's about, on the specific sites like IMDB where hiring is taking place to be able to give people the opportunity to opt out. We made it a narrow, very narrow this law, so that they can just have their work seen. And in every other business, it's illegal to be asking people their age. But suddenly here, on a site that's done for hiring purposes, because it looks like it's Hollywood and it looks so glamorous, people don't have an issue with it.

HM: As you know the website is seeking an injunction to stop the enforcement of this law. It argues that this is unconstitutional because it restricts free speech, and they call it outright censorship. What's your response?

GC: It's not censorship. I disagree with them as did California. We have filed to intervene in support of California in the lawsuit because we don't feel in any way this is an infringement of freedom of speech. This is about trying to stop the blatant bias that takes place when these sites go and share ages.

HM: But it is just a statement of fact isn't it really? To say that someone's birthdate?

GC: Well you know, that's not allowed for legal hiring. When you go on the sites, they're not allowed to put ages. For people who are doctors, when you go on the medical sites, they’re not allowed to put ages. There's a difference between Google, Wikipedia and IMDB. IMDB is used for hiring. Therefore, it should abide by the law.

HM: You and I are pretty much the same age. You just turned 56. What kind of roles are you and your contemporaries offered these days?

GC: Well you know what, it's starting to change. Women definitely of a certain age, it's more challenging to find those roles. And I don't actually look quite my age still, so that still makes it challenging. But it's not just for me. When the law was first passed, when Governor Brown signed it, I cannot tell you how many young men and women came to me wrote to me. Some of them cried saying thank you so much because sometimes I can't get into the room. You know I'm 25, and I'm auditioning for the role of a 17-year-old, and they won't see me because they know my age. So yes, absolutely women of a certain age are challenged. But it's not just women of a certain age. It’s men of a certain age. Whether you're young, or whether you're older, the truth is that there is an age bias that occurs and we want to really… we want to lift that.

HM: But you know looking at the whole picture of Hollywood over the last five 10 decades. Ageism is entrenched, and especially for women I'm thinking of Audrey Hepburn, playing all these roles in her 20s up with romantic interests played by like Gary Cooper and Fred Astaire who were in their 50s. So how much hope do you have that that you can actually change that culture?

GC: My hope is very high, because it's not just about Hollywood ageism and discrimination. In every business and every career around the world. This is not just something that occurs here in Hollywood. So yes, I believe in our society. I believe that people know what's right and they'll stand up. If we don't win today, we win tomorrow, but we fight the good fight because it's the righteous one.

HM: Gabrielle Carteris, thank you for joining us.

GC: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

HM: All right take care. Bye bye.

GC: Bye.

JD: Gabrielle Carteris is the president of the Screen Actors Guild. In 1990, at the age of 29, she was cast as teenager Andrea Zuckerman on 90210. She was in L.A. And for more on this story go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Pakistani Fatwah, feeding homeless arrests

Pakistani Fatwah

Guest: Shaan Taseer

JD: Shaan Taseer's father was assassinated. And now the Pakistani rights activist fears he could face the same fate. Mr. Taseer's father, Salmaan, was murdered in Islamabad in 2011 by his own bodyguard. The shooter targeted the Pakistani politician because he had criticized the country's blasphemy laws. Now hardline religious groups in Pakistan are calling for the son to be similarly executed. The reason: a video he made echoing his father's message.

HELEN MANN: Mr. Taseer, what did you say in this video you released on Christmas Day?

SHAAN TASEER: I wished everyone Merry Christmas and I asked everyone to make a prayer for the victims of religious persecution in Pakistan, specifically Asia Bibi and Nabeel Masih who have been imprisoned on charges of false charges of blasphemy. I asked everyone to make a prayer for them and for their families and for all other victims of religious persecution in Pakistan who have suffered under the blasphemy law, an inhumane law.

HM: Did you think you were making a controversial statement at the time you released this?

ST: Good question. I have criticized the religious persecution of minorities in Pakistan many times, why the religious right chose to pick up on this particular statement, I don't know. I can speak for them. But I can guess that it has something to do with the fact that my father's death anniversary was coming up and they were looking for an opportunity to expand their influence and to expand their mind space in Pakistani society.

HM: This is not the first time you've made some kind of a statement in this regard.

ST: It's not the first time and it's certainly not the last time.

HM: What exactly is the threat that has been made against you?

ST: Well the religious right has started an incitement murder campaign against me where they are calling for my death. They have created a moral panic whereby they have said that Islam is in danger and they're calling for a white knight to come and rescue Islam. And by that, they specifically means for someone to take my life. The precedent is that they did exactly the same when my father criticized such laws and they are calling for another Mumtaz Qadri to do to me what was done to my Father and Mumtaz Qadri is the man who took my father's life.

HM: Well it's interesting you should mention that. One of the hardline clerics in Pakistan, one made this accusation against you saying “I don't know why the Taseer family do this again and again. His own father,” meaning your own father, “was killed for this. So why is he choosing the same path.” Given that you know the price your father paid, why is it so important to you to make this… take the stand?

ST: Well you see, what's happening in Pakistan is that the religious right is placing these red lines within society on what can be spoken about and what cannot be spoken about. And they are playing judge, jury, and executioner. Now there is absolutely no constitutional basis for telling any citizen in the country whether or not they have the right to speak about the laws that govern them. So for this cleric to be wondering why I expressed an opinion is… I would I would find that amusing. Who gave him the right to tell me what I can speak about or not?

HM: You mentioned a woman named Asia Bibi. Your father was shot after he defended her. She is a Christian woman accused of blasphemy. Could you give us a bit of background on her case?

ST: Asia Bibi was accused of saying some words about the Prophet by some women that she had a dispute with. Four or five days later, a cleric from the village who was not present brought those charges to a police station and they claimed that Asia Bibi has admitted to saying those words. The accusations against her come from seven witnesses. All of their testimonies do not match up, and the case was decided in the trial court in the presence of a very violent and enraged mob. Now the reason I called this… one of the reasons I call these laws unjust is because mob intimidation prevents the right of the accused to a fair trial. So that is what happened with Asia Bibi.

HM: And what is her status right now?

ST: Her appeal is pending before the Supreme Court of Pakistan. She is awaiting a date and the case is yet to be decided.

HM: In mentioning the threat against you, you spoke of Mumtaz Qadri, the man who was convicted of killing your father and who is considered a martyr and a hero by some people in Pakistan. How worried are you that the way he is regarded may further promote someone to do some kind of violence against you?

ST: Look, that threat has always been there. There’s always been that threat against anyone who's who speaks in favor of a, religious minorities and b, against the laws that persecute them. That threat has always been there. I would say it's a little bit more marked now but I don't think that there's anything new about that.

HM: What about plans to return to Pakistan. Will you travel there?

ST: I will return to Pakistan because I have a lot of work in Pakistan. I work with victims of religious persecution. Obviously when I do so I will be taking some precautions.

HM: Some precautions. Are your family concerned about the level of those precautions and whether they will be enough?

ST: Well those precautions usually involve not advertising your movements.

HM: OK. Well thank you very much for speaking with us. I appreciate it.

ST: Pleasure.

HM: All right.

ST: Thank you.

JD: Sean Taseer is a Pakistani rights activist. And for more on this story go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

FROM OUR ARCHIVES: Nat Hentoff obit

JD: New York is chock-a-block with writers. But Nat Hentoff was among the busiest and most prolific.
He began writing about jazz in the 1950s and he just kind of never stopped. And along the way, he wrote novels, essays and books about civil liberties.
Nat Hentoff died Saturday. He was 91 years old.
Many people considered Mr. Hentoff – who wrote a column in The Village Voice for fifty years – a leftist. He was really more of a libertarian. According to The New York Times, he labelled himself a troublemaker.
But while Mr. Hentoff shook things up with his words, in the 1970s, he found himself in the cross-hairs of a left-wing group that resorted to violence instead. It was called the U.S. Labor Party and it was led by Lyndon LaRouche.
In 1975, Mr. Hentoff spoke with As It Happens host Barbara Frum about the threat that group posed. Here is part of their conversation, from our archives:

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: Who are their friends, who are their enemies?

NAT HENTOFF: Their enemies are other people on the left. Their enemies also are people like you and me, I gather, who, if once we are informed of the truth, as they see the truth, and do not immediately become part of their advocacy network, we then show by our refusal to have been converted, that we too are CIA agents. And in fact, in their paper, New Solidarity, for some time, I was I was called a CIA agent among other thing. Some of which I doubt if I ought to repeat over a considerable period of time. I laugh, and you know, and there's something ludicrous about it. There is also some danger because they have beaten people up fairly badly in the past. This was about two years ago when they had something called Operation Mop Up. In other words, they are to say the least, very unstable people.

BF: What kind of a hierarchy runs the thing? Have you ever talked to someone about the inner organization.

NH: LaRouche is obviously the man in charge, but they do have a hierarchy. I was visited to my surprise about three weeks ago by an amiable and guarded man in his late 20s who had been, he informed me, their security chief, or assistant security chief. And he was now leaving them to go to another party. He was concerned about the fact that I had been under surveillance under his direction for some period of time, and he thought I ought to know that. And I asked him what they had come up with, and he said well, you went into a liquor store once. The only thing that made it interesting and rather macabre was he said there were times when they considered after doing surveillance on people whether it might not be in the interest of the organization and the world to dispose of them, to eliminate them. And it did not bother him philosophically, ethically, politically to think in those terms.

JD: From our archives, that was journalist and author Nat Hentoff speaking to Barbara Frum in 1975. Mr. Hentoff died Saturday. He was 91.

[Music]

Feeding homeless arrests

Group: Jimmy Dunson

JD: Some would say, “No good deed goes unpunished.”
Over the weekend, volunteers were giving food to homeless people in a park in Tampa, Florida. And for that, they were arrested.
The non-profit group Food Not Bombs has been feeding hungry people twice a week for several years. But the city has now decided to enforce an ordinance that requires them to have a permit to do so.
Charges are pending, but that did not stop the volunteers from heading back to the park this morning to serve more food.
Jimmy Dunson is one of the group's organizers. We reached him in Tampa.

HM: Jimmy Dunson, why do you think Tampa police are cracking down on you and the members of your group for feeding homeless people?

JIMMY DUNSON: So actually this is a pattern all across the United States. Cities are cracking down on people sharing food with the hungry and houseless. There was an event though, the college national championship game and the associated musical events that happened alongside with it, that maybe precipitated why they cracked down on us now. One week ago, we had our regular food-share like we always have on Tuesday mornings at 8:00 a.m. and our volunteers were detained. In that experience, one of the volunteers was talking to people that are experiencing homelessness that we have come to form relationships with. They had told us that the city, the police have been telling them to disappear for two weeks.

HM: So you think they didn't want you handing out food because you would be bringing more homeless people to the area?

DUNSON: Well this is a pattern with which cities across Florida and across the United States. Cities more and more are criminalizing being homeless, and they're criminalizing sharing food with the homeless.

HM: What happened when you were back out there today? Because you were you were at it again.

DUNSON: Yes we have our regulars food-shares Tuesday mornings, at 8:00 a.m. and Saturdays at 4:00 p.m. We’ve had these food-shares for years in downtown like Lykes Gaslight Park, since there were seven arrests last Saturday, we've had an outpouring of support internationally and locally, and people locally actually surrounded us as we shared food.

HM: They surrounded you today?

DUNSON: Yes supporters, they held hands and created a wall around us, preventing the police from coming in and arresting us and stopping our food-share. Everybody was able to get their fill of coffee and pie and vegan pizza and fresh fruit and fruit salad and the hygiene items that we had.

HM: Now you and the other six people who were arrested last week, what kind of charges do you potentially face?

DUNSON: Trespassing, trespassing after a warning, trespassing on public property.

HM: And have you sought any legal advice? Do you have any concerns that you know you might actually be found guilty?

DUNSON: I've actually been arrested for this handful of times before. In 2004, I was arrested for this a couple of times in Tampa and the city eventually dropped the charges and agreed to stop enforcing it and change the ordinance. I do have faith that the city is going to do the right thing. It's a compassionate act, it’s a kind act, to share with marginalized communities. And it's not something that should be policed, and it's not something that should be criminalized.

HM: I understand that the city of Tampa says that if you're going to do this kind of thing that you need to apply for a permit and that they have insurance concerns. Do you think there's any value to their worries?

DUNSON: I don't believe there is any validity to the city's claims about a permit.

HM: What the people experiencing homelessness are worried about is that next meal or finding a job or having a friend to talk to. Those survival needs are paramount. And this idea of asking permission and needing a stamp of approval from the city is just absurd. The permit process… they want insurance. That doesn't even apply to us though, this permit process. It applies to special events and corporate luncheons, and vendors and things like that. But we're none of that.

DUNSON: What would it cost for the group to comply with the ordinance if you were to choose to do so and go ahead and get a permit?

HM: We don't have any of the necessary. We looked at those special events applications. We have nothing.

DUNSON: We don't have a bank account, we don't have nonprofit status, we don't have insurance, and anything that the city can give us, they can also take away from us. So we wouldn't be able to guarantee to our friends that we would be able to be there twice a week every week.

HM: What do the people you're helping, these friends that you've made, that you're feeding. What do they say your efforts mean to them?

DUNSON: Many people that are houseless also help serve. They put on the gloves. They serve the coffee and they help carry the totes of food back and forth. And so you know, it's not really an us versus them type of thing. You know we're all in this together. We have each other's back and that's what this is about. Especially this morning, people that are experiencing homelessness had felt the support from the community to speak up and also affirmed their rights as human beings. They told us that we’re their heroes, that they are proud of us. My friend Brian, I've known him 12 years, and he saw it on the news on Saturday, the arrest of seven of us. And he came down to the park this morning and we gave each other a hug and he told me he was proud of me and that means a lot to me.

HM: So I trust that you will be back that park on Saturday.

DUNSON: Yes, yes we will.

HM: And how do you hope this will ultimately be resolved?

DUNSON: The city is going to drop the charges and change the ordinance. I have faith in that and the city will do the right thing. Justice wins out in the end. Love wins.

HM: Jimmy Dunson, thank you for talking with us.

DUNSON: Thank you.

HM: OK bye.

JD: Jimmy Dunson is the organizer of the Food Not Bombs chapter in Tampa, Florida. That's where we reached him.

[Music]

From Our Archives: Breivik appeal

JD: He gave a Nazi salute as he walked into the courtroom.
Norwegian mass murderer Anders Breivik is back in court because the government is appealing a judge's ruling that some of Mr. Breivik's treatment in prison was inhumane.
At the time of the ruling last April, Carol spoke to Professor Mads Andenas. His niece survived Breivik's attack in 2011 although some of his students did not.
And it was surprising to some that Professor Andenas said he was glad that Mr. Breivik had won his challenge about his treatment in prison. Here's Carol in conversation with Professor Andenas asking if others in Norway had a similar reaction.

SOUNDCLIP

MADS ANDENAS: The clear majority. Practically everybody I've seen saying anything about this in Norwegian media except that he has rights. There's disagreement about the actual weighing of these interests as you could expect. But there’s nobody who indicates in anyways that they’d like the court's decision not to be respected.

CAROL OFF: As you know better than I do, he killed 77 people. He hunted them down, young people, he shot them. He showed no remorse. Treated himself as a political prisoner during his trial. He gave a Nazi salute during this hearing for his… the human rights challenge. There are other jurisdictions other people in other countries who would say ‘throw away the key. Who cares what happens to him.’ How do you get to the place where you think well we have to guard Mr. Breivik’s rights in this way.

MA: Prison is the sanction you have. What would you win, what would you gain by treating him in degrading and inhuman way which is what the court held the prison authorities have done in his case. It's very difficult to see that you can gain any satisfaction from that. I would have thought, particularly when it comes to people like him, to a terrorist because of course that's what he is, one observes every aspect, every procedural right, every substantive right, to the very very very last.

CO: You know that I… most people… other places would find this astonishingly enlightened on the part of Norway to take this position. At the same time, how difficult is it each time Mr. Breivik is back in court doing his antics and showing no remorse, how difficult is it for you to see that, knowing the people you lost.

MA: Well I think many of those who are out there on this island where he killed all these young people, they haven't followed these proceedings very closely and I think that's very reasonable. It's a very long way from that to saying he should be punished more than the law allows.

JD: From our archives, that was Carol in conversation with Professor Mads Andenas in April of last year. Professor Andenas’ niece survived Anders Breivik’s attack in 2011 that killed 77 people.

Back To Top »

Part 3: Refugees Follow-up

Refugees follow-up

Guest: Efrat Arbel

JEFF DOUGLAS: It was anything but a warm welcome. Last night, we told you how several refugee claimants have been treated for severe frostbite, after they were smuggled across the U.S/Canada border and left in Toronto.
That story is renewing calls on the Canadian government by refugee advocates to scrap what's known as the Safe Third Country Agreement.
That agreement makes it extremely difficult for asylum seekers traveling through the U.S. to claim refugee status in Canada at an official border crossing.
Efrat Arbel is a law professor at the University of British Columbia. She studies refugee smuggling on the US/Canadian border and we reached her in Vancouver.

HELEN MANN: Professor Arbel, what went through your mind when you heard about these refugees who suffered from severe frostbite after being smuggled into Canada?

EFRAT ARBEL: This isn't an awful story and unfortunately it's not uncommon. We have known that refugees are being smuggled into Canada for many years and often in situations that put them in grave danger and risk for their lives and their safety. This is caused by a variety of factors, but in large part caused by an agreement known as the Safe Third Country Agreement that has been in place since 2004.

HM: And how does that work?

EA: The way this agreement operates is because we presume that the United States is safe, we say to refugees, you cannot come and seek protection at our land border. If you first land from your country of origin in the United States, you are obligated to seek protection in the United States. And if you come to our land border we will turn you back.

HM: What is the objective here for Canada in signing onto that?

EA: The stated objective of the agreement was enhancing the integrity of the border, enhancing cooperation between the two parties. But the parties have since acknowledged and admitted the fact that from Canada's perspective, the objective was to reduce the number of “irregular migrants” who are coming to seek protection here in Canada. As this example has shown, that's actually proven to be exactly the opposite of what has taken place. This agreement actually creates incentives for irregular border crossings, and does so in ways that that put the lives and safety of refugees at risk.

HM: How is that?

EA: We're telling refugees, if you if you present yourself at the border, we will turn you away. But if you risk your life, risk your safety, risk the safety of your of your children, of your loved ones, and cross the border through some an authorized channel, again putting the lives of you and your family at risk, then we will entertain your question.

HM: You clearly disagree with some U.S. policies on immigration, but isn't it by and large still a safe country in which to seek status?

EA: Not according to international standards of refugee protection. In order to ensure that a refugee is truly given protection, the United States has so much more to do, so much farther to go. The treatment that individuals are subject to in detention is appalling. The treatment of gender-related claims. Women who flee situations of life-threatening domestic violence as well as a series of other types of gender persecution is subpar. The treatment of sexual identity and sexual orientation in most of the U.S. system fails to provide these individuals with adequate standards of protection.

HM: If the Safe Third Country Agreement were to be scrapped, would we not expect a huge influx in the number of refugees coming into this country?

EA: It is exceedingly difficult to actually get to Canada. Geographically we are far removed from most conflict zones. It is very difficult to get here by water. It is very expensive to get here by air, and it is very difficult to get here by land.

HM: Well in in fact you, you referred to some of the risks that these refugee claimants face. And we mentioned in great detail the frostbite, but what are the other factors?

EA: Gosh where do I even begin? The challenge of securing the journey of exiting your country of origin, of making it onto North American soil. Some individuals have to walk all the length of the United States in terrible conditions, without security, without language, with fear of being caught. The elements are just one of many grave dangers that refugees face in making this this often perilous journey.

HM: A lot of people want to come to this country. And we hear from those who are critical of people who show up on our border, who come into the country seeking refugee status, because they feel that they are often jumping a queue on which many people are waiting in line for many years. What do you say to that?

EA: The concept that there is a queue it is just a fabrication. It's an invented concept. There is no queue. There are a variety of different ways to seek refugee protection in Canada. One is to be selected from abroad. The other way, primary way, in which refugees come and seek protection is just to leave their countries of origin, make their way here on their own and present themselves at the border. It's not a matter of jumping a queue. It is an entirely valid, legal and legitimate way in which to seek asylum. And for many, it is the only way that is open to them.

HM: Let's just be clear though, as I understand it, the Safe Third Country Agreement isn't just a pact between Canada and the United States. This is true in Europe as well. Clearly many countries feel this is a reasonable way to handle a growing refugee crisis.

EA: The geographic reality in Europe is so dramatically different than in Canada and the United States but it's very difficult for liken the two. You're absolutely right the Safe Third Country Agreement is modeled on similar agreements that exist in Europe. The geography is such that when we enter in an agreement like this with United States, we are closing our border. We only have one land border and that's the border we share with the United States. And by making it so much more difficult for individuals to enter here, we are in some cases, denying them the opportunity to seek protection. And in other cases, as I said, we're just creating these hurdles that put their lives and their safety at risk.

HM: Professor Arbel, thank you very much for joining us.

EA: Thank you very much.

HM: OK good bye.

JD: Efrat Arbel is a law professor at UBC. We reached her in Vancouver.

[Music]

Clare Hollingworth obit

Guest: Malcolm Moore

JD: She broke the news of World War Two.
Clare Hollingworth – the British war correspondent who spotted German troops on the eve of their invasion of Poland – died earlier today in Hong Kong . She was 105 years old.
Malcolm Moore is an editor at the Financial Times who travelled to interview Ms. Hollingworth. We reached him in London.

HM: Malcolm, how are you remembering Claire Hollingworth today?

MALCOLM MOORE: Well I met Claire three times. The first time was in 2009 and she was already 98, I guess she was back then. And I didn't really know anything about her except that you know she had broken this huge story, but I didn't really know what sort of state she would be in at that age. And you know, whether she'd be able to communicate, or whether she'd be too frail. And I found her, you know, she was nearly blind. She wore huge bottle-thick glasses. She was nearly deaf. But she still had her memories from back then. And she described to me, you know what it was like at the beginning of the war. She described to me how excited she felt, and I think that's something that she carried with her throughout her career. She was always excited to be in the middle of the action, wherever the action was. Whether in Europe during World War 2, or whether it was in the Middle East, or whether it was you know the end of her career, as she was in China for the death of Mao and the end of the Cultural Revolution. You know what she said to me was ‘if you ever need someone to travel, tell them I'm ready to go.’

HM: Even at that point.

MM: Yeah, she was 98. Yeah, she was 98-years-old.

HM: You mentioned her perhaps big claim to fame and that was being the one journalist who actually broke the news at the beginning of the Second World War. What is your understanding of how that came to be?

MM: Can you imagine. She was three days in. She had been working in Poland in 1938 for something called the Lord Mayor of London’s Czech Refugees Fund, to help refugees who were escaping from Czechoslovakia after Hitler's occupation. She came back to London and bumped into the editor of The Daily Telegraph at a drinks party and he snaps her up. He appointed her to be a deputy for the Berlin Correspondent and she flew the next day from London through Berlin and then to Warsaw. And then you know she took the train to the border and borrowed a car, and she was out there on the border and she saw the tanks and German army amassing, ready to roll into Poland. She then crossed over into Poland herself and she was there when the tanks invaded.

HM: And she reported that information back to London. How did they respond?

MM: That's right. She phoned the Foreign Office and said you know, “The war’s started, chaps” and they went “Are you sure the war’s started?” and she held the phone out of the window so they could hear the tanks rolling in, and then you know helped the consulate there burn all their papers and everybody evacuated, and she took a case of champagne from the French Consul on my way out. She couldn't resist, carrying the champagne off with her.
You know, the adventure started to from there. She then crisscrossed all the way across Europe, went down to the Balkans, went to Turkey, went to Cairo. She covered the North African campaign. I mean, it was really a remarkable time.

HM: And that work you mentioned before the start of the war, where she was helping refugees from Czechoslovakia. She really helped save the lives of many people, didn't she?

MM: So I was looking at her nephew Patrick Garrett, he told me that the organization she was working for, the Lord Mayor of London’s Fund had saved maybe 3000 refugees. I couldn't find any confirmation of that myself, but I could find the amount of money that raised. It was a private enterprise. And they raised £300,000 pounds to try and help people get out of Czechoslovakia. And you know, that was a huge sum of money back then. I don't know how many people she held personally, but she talked about the fact that she was helping the blind and the deaf, the people who couldn’t help themselves get out.

HM: All these conflict zones that she covered throughout her life. She was once quoted saying “I must admit I enjoy being in a war. I don't know why I'm not brave.” Did she explain to you what it was about conflict zones that was so invigorating for her?

MM: You know I think she was a reporter's reporter. You know she was born in Leicester, she had a normal upbringing in the U.K., and then she embarked on this great adventure. And I think it all always was, you know just a tremendously exciting thing. There weren’t very many female war correspondents around. I mean she really blazed the path of female reporters. You know, she was expelled from the press corps by Montgomery in North Africa because he didn't think that women belong at the frontline. But she proved that she could be as tough as the guys and she beat them to the stories. You know and I think that would have been hugely exhilarating. It's the same sort of exhilaration that I think a lot of reporters who seek out conflict, and want to cover today.

HM: And she could really smell a story, as I understand it. She knew something was up about Kim Philby who she worked alongside. And of course, we found out later, he had indeed gone to Russia because he'd been spying for the Soviets. Again, her people back in her head office in London were skeptical about that.

MM: Right. So back then she was working for The Guardian newspaper and she was in Beirut I think, and she and Philby were due to attend a dinner. He didn't show up because he'd actually boarded a ship for Odessa. She found out about it and followed it back to London. But it was a hugely sensitive time. You know, they hadn't admitted that he defected, and indeed they didn't admit that he defected until well off the story ran. But you know, again, another enormous scoop.

HM: Is it true she drank beer for breakfast?

MM: I never saw her drink beer for breakfast. I don't know.

HM: It may have just been a claim.

MM: I do know that she liked champagne, so for her 100th birthday, I was down in Hong Kong for her 100^th birthday, and we went down to the Foreign Correspondents Club in Hong Kong, and we'd taken her a huge bottle of champagne and a big round of Stilton cheese, and she tucked into both of them. So. So I know that she liked Stilton and champagne. I don't know about beer for breakfast.

HM: In the long run, what do you think her legacy is going to be?

MM: Well look, I think again, as I said, she was a real role model for a whole generation of female reports. She wasn’t as famous as maybe Martha Gellhorn, but she was, she was you know somebody who broke huge stories, and you know always told it straight, reported it straight and lived for the story. And I think that's why a lot of journalists today are feeling like we should remember her.

HM: Malcolm Moore, thank you for sharing your memories with us. I appreciate it.

MM: All right. OK. Thanks Helen.

HM: All right good bye.

MM: Bye bye.

JD: Malcolm Moore is an editor for The Financial Times. We reached him in London. Again, British war correspondent Clare Hollingworth died today. She was 105 years old. And here now from the BBC's archives is Ms. Hollingworth in 1978 alongside her former colleague at The Telegraph. Hugh Carleton Greene remembering how she broke the news of the start of World War II in 1939.

SOUNDCLIP

HUGH GREENE: Clare Hollingworth was sent out by the Daily Telegraph from London in August to help them. I sent her to West Poland, near the German frontier.

CLARE HOLLINGWORTH: Yes I was staying in a room, the best side of this flat, overlooking the German frontier. And from there I saw, first of all heard, the planes coming over. And then saw the Polish cloud of attack caused by the [unintelligible]. At that point I rang you in Warsaw and said “Hugh, the war’s begun.”

HG: As soon as you rang off I rang Mr. Kulikovsky (sp?), the head of the press department at the Polish Foreign Office, and using your exact words I said to him “The war’s begun. The Germans are bombing Katowice.” He said, “Nonsense.”

CH: Typical.

HG: The negotiations are still going on. It must be an air raid practice. And at that very moment all the sirens in Warsaw started to go off and he said to me “My God, you're right.” So between us, Clare, we were the first people to tell the Polish government that World War II had broken out.

CH: Well I went off early in the morning to see if anything was happening at the frontier. I saw a certain amount of troop movements and horses and supplies, nothing sensational. When I got back to the hotel, the consul said, we've had orders or, we're going to have orders very soon, to leave. At that point I went to my room. And coming down the stairs, I had through crackle crackle of a radio, very bad, that a state of war now exists between Great Britain and Germany.

JD: From the BBC's archives, that was Clare Hollingworth and her former colleague Hugh Carlteon Greene in 1978. Clare Hollingworth died earlier today.

[Music]

Jane Fonda

JD: Celebrity activist Jane Fonda was a long way from home today. And some people in Fort McMurray went out of their way to let the environmental activist know she was not welcome. Ms. Fonda was in Fort Mac on a trip organized by Greenpeace in which she met with Indigenous leaders and then went on an aerial tour of the oil sands.
Here is Ms. Fonda speaking to CBC about her experience and during that interview, she was confronted by two people in the parking lot of Moxie's in Fort McMurray.

SOUNDCLIP

JANE FONDA: It's like someone took my skin and peeled it off my body over a very large surface. I hurt, it made my body ache to watch it. And you know. And then it's very interesting to do a fly-over, which gives you the macro.

VOICE 1: Have you talked to the First Nations people who have been affected by this?

VOICE 2: You don’t speak for all First Nations people.

VOICE 1: And all their employees? They cannot work. Who they support? The oil and gas?

JF: Listen, I’m not against you.

VOICE 1: Well I sure hope that your report on Fort MacMurray is a pleasant one and not just bashing us. We are hurting here.

JF: I know.

VOICE 1: 2000 people lost their homes.

JF: I saw the effects of the fire. I’m very sympathetic.

VOICE 1:Well I hope you have a supportive and not just here bashing the oil and gas. Did you sleep in a hotel?

JF: Yes I did.

VOICE 1: Yes.

JF: And I flew in an airplane here and I understand. I understand what you're saying.

JD: That was Jane Fonda speaking to local residents in Fort McMurray. The environmental activist was in town to see the oil sands.

[Music]

Old tree

Guest: Jim Allday

JD: When people visit the Calaveras Big Trees State Park in California, they come to see one tree in particular. You know it. And they come to see it not just because of its impressive size or age but because of the giant tunnel carved through the base of it.
For park volunteer Jim Allday, the sight of the Pioneer Cabin Tree, or the tunnel tree, never got old. But yesterday, Mr. Allday and others made a shocking discovery. The ancient tree had fallen down.
We reached Mr. Allday in Arnold, California.

HM: Mr. Allday, how did you learn that the tunnel tree had fallen down?

JIM ALLDAY: Well I was working what we call the Warming Hut on Sunday, and that's… the Warming Hut is at the end of what we call the North Grove Trail which is a self-guided trail, and somebody came in about two o'clock and said, well there's a tree fell over at number 21 that's blocking the trail and it's kind of hard to get around. We’ve lost quite a few trees this week just because of the weather and I didn't think anything of it. At a quarter to three, when I was closing down, I went over to check out one of the ladies in the store and she said ”Boy, did you hear about the Pioneer Cabin Tree? It fell.” And that's earth shaking to us. And so I just went and put on my winter clothes and hiked a third of a mile out to it.

HM: And when you say it's earth shaking, why is that?

JA: Oh the news. It's such a…it's such an icon. It's the most popular attraction in the park, the most photographed spot in the park.

HM: Wow. Now were there any visitors nearby when it fell?

JA: No the weather was terrible. And that's very fortunate. The day before I did a guided tour and the guided tours go through the tree. If you look at one of the photos, there's a photo that has a picture of a sign in it. And if you look at that carefully, right behind the sign you can see a twisted bench. The tree landed right on the bench that the visitors sit on to take photographs of the top of the tree.

HM: Wow. What was the rest of the damage like? What did you see when you got there?

JA: Well, I prepared myself when I was walking up the trail and then I went around the bend and there it was. I just was stunned at this, even though I told myself what I was going to see, I just couldn't believe it.
It had pretty much shattered when it landed. It splintered. And that's what giant sequoias do. This tree was almost dead. Everybody knew that. And we think the insides of it were just in such poor condition that when it hit, it shattered. Some of the trees when they fall look like trees. This one looked like debris.

HM: You mentioned the people who would stand beneath the opening in the tree and how popular it was. Give us a picture of exactly what it looked like when it was still standing.

JA: It was a magnificent tree. Well, today it was pretty much dead. At the very top and had one branch with a little bit, tuft of green on it. The hole was so large and people used to drive automobiles through it in the early 1900s that the families that was their spot. They would get into the tunnel itself and pose for their picture or if there was enough of them they'd hold their arms out and see if they could, you know, touch each side of it. You know people had fun with it.

HM: The tunnel was carved 130 years ago is that right?

JA: I would say so. You know my wife is sitting here and she's kind of that historical expert. But I think it was started in the late 1880s. Yosemite National Park and hollowed out a giant sequoia and made a tourist attraction it was very popular and the owner of the property was in the hospitality business at a beautiful hotel here in the park. He said, well we can't let them take the business. We need to compete with that. They picked the Pioneer Cabin Tree and hollowed it out. And it was a tremendous success for the park.

HM: All to beat the tourist trade at Yosemite.

JA: Exactly.

HM: Would it have been hard to carve out?

JA: I doubt it. The tree itself had a big fire scar in it. That is natural. About half or a third of the giant sequoias have a fire scar around them. Early trappers and hunters that wanted shelter would go into that and they would use their axes and work on it and they finally got it squared out where it actually looked like a room, a cabin. And they built shelves into the walls and so forth and so on. That's why it was called the pioneer cabin tree. It was almost all the way through before they even did the tunnel all the way through.

HM: So just who were these early tourists?

JA: It's an interesting question. It took by car, I don't know how long it would have taken, but for the people that didn't come by car, it was a one day steamship ride from San Francisco to Stockton then a three day stagecoach ride that had two hotels stops on it. And only the wealthy people were coming. And this was not something that the average family would do.

HM: So do you think that the giant hole was part of the reason it fell down yesterday?

JA: Well yes. I mean all every giant sequoia is going to fall down sometime. They don't they don't burn in forest fires, and they're not harvested for any commercial use. The only two ways that a giant sequoia dies is either humans or weather. But this one, we knew that the hole had damaged it to the point that it was dying, which obviously is going to make it weaker on the inside probably in the root system as well. But the other factor was the hole had caused it to become imbalanced and it had a real severe lean to it. Most of the giant sequoias are very tall and upright. This one had a quite a lean to it. And you know that tells anybody it's going to fall. It could be tomorrow, it could be a hundred years from now, we don't know. But it's going to go dow.

HM: The tree saw so much history. A lot of people sort of carved their remembrances in it. What have we lost?

JA: Back in the old days when these wealthy people would come up to the park. They could go up to the desk of the hotel and say “Could you arrange a carriage? I'd like to go on a tour of the north grove.” And the hotel said “Yes. We’ll have a carriage ready for you. By the way would you like to take a knife with you so that you can carve something in the Pioneer Cabin Tree?” And there were a lot of etchings, carvings on the wall of the inside of the Pioneer Cabin Tree. And you know, you couldn't, they weren't clear, you had to really take a close hard look to find any of the old ones. But you could see them. And those are lessons are history that's gone.

HM: Do you see any of those now in the remains?

JA: Oh no. That part of the tree is just crumbled.

HM: You wrote in a Facebook post “We lost an old friend today.” How important was this tree to you personally?

JA: I'm a volunteer as and I have been for five years. And you only volunteer at the park because you love the park and the giant sequoias. And this was, you know, the most popular of something that we're all so fond of. And so to lose it is like losing an old friend.

HM: Well I'm sorry to hear about it. It's sad to hear that bit of history fallen. But thank you for telling us about it.

JA: Oh you're welcome.

HM: All right, bye bye.

JA: See you.

JD: Jim Allday is a volunteer with Calaveras Big Trees State Park in California. We reached him in nearby Arnold.

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Jan 10, 2017 episode transcript

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