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The Current Transcript for January 3, 2016

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

So an E number is an Eskimo number or disk. And each Inuk had a number assigned to them so E-1-1 was a person from Eskimo point, or Arviat as it’s now known.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: For the government, they had identifying numbers, for the photographers who often documented them they rarely had names. And so the photographs now in the official Canadian archives of the residence of Inuit communities in what is now Nunavut were anonymous. Even while the white people in the same pictures were identified. For the last 15 years there's been a project underway to put names to the faces, not only of those who are now Inuit elders, but also now of other Indigenous people in Canada whose images in the official archives have left them without a name of their own. We'll hear about those efforts in an hour. And the second migration..

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You know, it's meant that I had to uproot myself yet again, like, from Syria to Turkey from Turkey to Canada and from Halifax to Toronto.

AMT: She's in her fifties, with language skills and highly employable as a specialized translator. One of an undetermined number of Syrians who arrived in Canada about a year ago, who are now moving cities in search of jobs and closer family connections. For some it is a boon, Windsor is welcoming a new wave of people. For others it is a heartbreak, as families consider moving away from those who first welcomed them. We'll tell you more in half an hour. But we're starting with Turkey. Terrorized by violence at home, caught up in crackdowns on the street and pulled into the war next door.

SOUNDCLIP

[woman sobbing]

[Turkish speaking language]

VOICE 1: [Through translator] When I got the news, I collapsed. May God spare everyone else this pain. May there be peace for Turkey and no more bloodshed.

AMT: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current.

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Back To Top »

'I don't feel safe anymore': Turkish citizens react to attacks

Guests: Nil Köksal, Irep Cakir, Jane

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Authorities remain on high alert in Turkey, as the manhunt continues for the shooter who killed 39 people including a Canadian woman from Ontario at an Istanbul nightclub on New Year's Day. ISIS has claimed responsibility for that attack. And for Turkey, 2017 is starting off in an all too familiar footing. The country has been the site of a string of terror attacks over the past few years, as well as a failed coup attempt and subsequent widespread government crackdown. And then last month, the brazen assassination of the Russian ambassador to Turkey in Ankara. For more on this story, I'm joined by CBC correspondent Nil Köksal in Istanbul. Hello.

NIL KÖKSAL: Good morning to you, Anna Maria.

AMT: What can you tell us about the manhunt that is still underway Nil?

NIL KÖKSAL: There's a lot going on this morning, there certainly has been over the last couple of days. State media here has identified the suspect as Lakhe Mashrapov and confirmed some of the reports that we were hearing leading up to today that he's from Kyrgyzstan. We're hearing that he's 28-years-old, and among the now 14 people who are being questioned about the case, are members of his own family. And we're hearing that he reportedly came here with his wife and two children, first to the city of Konya in Turkey on November 20th and then later came to Istanbul. So there's also a lot of questions, Anna Maria, about the sophistication of this attack. And a witness who survived the attacks, as you know it was a really large sprawling, not only crowded that night, but labyrinthian kind of nightclub. So how did he moved through so quickly with such efficiency? How did he know where to hide to drop his weapon, to change clothes and then get out so quickly. So those are the kinds of questions that are swirling as the manhunt continues.

AMT: That's interesting because they had originally thought he was working alone, but it sounds like they're looking for accomplices then?

NIL KÖKSAL: Well, originally people who were inside, you know, eyewitness accounts can be strange that way. People were saying there were multiple assailants. And the police said, quickly after officials said, quickly after that, no, this is just one shooter. But, you know, they've detained 14 people, so they believe that there's more behind this than one person.

AMT: And of course, one of the people killed was a Canadian, a woman who lived in Milton, just outside of Toronto. What can you tell us about her?

NIL KÖKSAL: Well, Alaa Al-Muhandis was a mother of two young children, she leaves behind a husband. And her family, many of the members found out yesterday — they were stunned and sad as you can imagine. And they say, they put out a statement saying, you know, she was an optimistic bright light, a wonderful mother. She was an event planner and she was actually traveling to Jordan on business and for a vacation. And before going back to Milton, she decided to come to celebrate New Year's festivities here and wanted to go to Reina and then after that she was going to go back to Milton, according to her family. My sources here say that, you know, the reporting, speaking with you outside the coroner's building yesterday, I spoke to them there this morning and they say that the paperwork has been processed by consular officials here and they're just waiting now for her body to be retrieved. And what happens in that process is they’re loaded into white vans, specifically for foreign victims, and then they're loaded onto the planes with the families who are waiting to take them home.

AMT: Mm. She wasn't the only one who would have gone through Istanbul as a place of sort of to relax a little bit, compared to other places in the Middle East as a transit point, that usually is a bit of an easier place to be, huh?

NIL KÖKSAL: Yeah, that's right. A lot of people, and a lot of people who were killed are from, you know, countries like Lebanon and Morocco and Saudi Arabia, even where this Turkey would be a freer place for them, and we've spoken to tourists who’ve said that, right? They wanted to come and have a good time. Its nightlife is as attractive to people in that neighbourhood as the restaurant. So it's that kind of a cosmopolitan place.

AMT: What has the government done in the aftermath of this shooting? And Nil what kind of action have they taken?

NIL KÖKSAL: Well, there's a lot of strong rhetoric and talk saying we will fight terrorism, absolutely. They say they fired on ISIS targets outside of Turkey, there’ve been raids. The specific search for this suspect as well, as we talked about. But there's also a lot of focus on social media. You know, one official saying last night in a press conference about the aftermath of the shooting, took a big section of that to talk about people who are sowing seeds of hatred and provocation on social media, people who are being irresponsible in their posts. And they say they're actually looking at 347 social media accounts specifically. So the government tend to focus on those kinds of things and people who are critics of the government will look at it and say, you know, why are you focusing on tweets when there was a person with a Kalashnikov. You know, words may sting but, you know, why are these attacks still happening? So that's the kind of divide that’s happening. We should mention though, in that kind of, those tweets and the trolls, people are guilty of that on both sides, whether they're pro-government or anti-government. People, as I mentioned before in our conversations as well, are so polarized. They have their sides and they will do anything possible to protect that side. So there's that dynamic in all of this, and really when the average person, no matter what their background is, or who they support Anna Maria, they just want to go

about their lives and know that they're safe. So that's the added difficulty and the added pressure on top of the reality of these attacks. That people can't come together because they're on one side or the other.

AMT: I'm going to pick up on that with our next guest Nil Köksal, thank you very much.

NIL KÖKSAL: Thank you.

AMT: Nil Köksal, CBC's correspondent in Istanbul, Turkey. Violence in the country has left Turks on edge and uncertain about their futures. And today we'll hear directly from two of them. Irep Cakir is a TV producer from Turkey who moved to Canada with her family last July. She's with me in our Toronto studio. My second guest is joining us from Turkey in the Kadikoy neighbourhood of Istanbul. And we're withholding her name to protect her identity, we'll call her Jane. Hello to you both.

IREP CAKIR: Hello.

JANE: Hello.

AMT: Jane, I want to start with you in Istanbul. What are you thinking about in these last few days since the nightclub attack?

JANE: Fear would be my first reaction. I mean, I feel fear because as Nil said, we feel, I feel that, I'm just talking on behalf of myself, I feel that the police and the government are more focused on social media and the tweets more than the people who is on the street or the people who are on the street just with guns and firearms and bombs in their hands. So every passing day it is adding more fear to my life. I don't feel safe anymore being here. I try to avoid public transportation or leave my neighbourhood, unless I really really have to go somewhere. I try never to leave home and stay as quiet as possible on social media. I try never to post anything regarding politics or about Turkey, no matter in what sense.

AMT: So you you've changed the way you live because of all of this?

JANE: I did. I did. Until about a year ago, I was a very outgoing person. I would go to Taksim at least once a week, I would meet with my friends outside. But about two years ago, the parliament passed the domestic safety package which gave more rights to the police. That was the first step that backed me up because it gave so many rights to the police that, you know, a policeman could stop me in the middle of the road and with nothing in his hand, he could take me under custody or ask me about my identity or even come to my house and search my house without a warrant. That backed me up a lot. And after these incidents, bombs and fires and just murders, this bloodshed. I realized if I want to stay alive and survive in this, especially in Istanbul, in a big city like this, I have to keep my mouth shut and I have to stay out of everything. I read everything, I follow everything but I stay home because there is no freedom of speech. Even if you say anything without insulting or writing anything provocative, it is very likely that somebody can tell us to the police about us and we can get taken under custody.

AMT: But you're telling me you are as worried about the police as you are about a terror attack?

JANE: Exactly. Exactly. We don't know who to trust. We don't know who to turn to because it is not on the press. And I really don't know how much the foreign press is showing the world, but we hear unofficially from our friends and, you know, unofficial press agencies that people are taken under custody are tortured. So it's just very scary and as a woman I feel more scared.

AMT: Irep Cakir, you're in Toronto now. As you listen to this, what are you thinking? And what are you thinking about this attack?

IREP CAKIR: Actually I have an objection here, because the shock after this attack, feelings after this attack, like shock, pain, even anger, I agree, I feel deeply but not fear. Because this is exactly what terrorism wants. Terror wants to penetrate, terror wants that fear penetrates into your mind and soul. Like, you know, diffuse get the diffuse under your skin to your millions of cells and really terror, once that you surrender to fear. So the fear shouldn't be felt. I mean, this is not going to be the fear, it shouldn't be. It wouldn't be if I were in Turkey, fear will not be my feeling. And as far as I can hear from her voice, she's young, of course I can understand that.

JANE: I am 36. I am not young.

IREP CAKIR: 36, OK.

JANE: And you’re in Toronto. I’m sorry.

IREP CAKIR: OK Jane. No, I know, I know. Look, I moved here with my three kids. And--

AMT: [interposing] Why did you come here?

IREP CAKIR: Yeah. Listen, my elder son, my stepson, he's in Istanbul. Going to his third year at university. I have so much worries about him every day, every morning he goes to school at university. I have a lot of concerns. We are calling him always. I really got really worried about him, I am always thinking. But this shouldn't be the fear I think, because if you fear you would be surrendering to the terror, terrorism. And Turkey is really in the grips of terror at the moment. And this is the aim, very aim of it.

AMT: OK. So but let me ask you, so you've been here since July. Why did you come to Canada?

IREP CAKIR: OK. I applied for the permanent residentship in 2014. I was working, I had my own company of TV production company, I was producing shows and et cetera. But our first [unintelligible] was professional actually. This is something bad actually, according what is going on in Turkey. You don't do your job on merits anymore. This was something really tight affiliated with the governments, you know, sort of corruption in the professional area. And we didn't have economic safety in that sense. And having a family, you are doing a great job in your home country but this is not on the merits, you know. So this was our worry. We couldn't to dream anymore Anna Maria. This was the point, you want to dream. And you know, Jane wants to dream also. She is, but they were, our dreams were sort of stolen from us. I couldn't dream anymore. That's why I moved.

AMT: How much was the security issue an issue for you? You were a television producer. Journalists were being picked up, TV people were being picked up all the time in Turkey. Was there no security issue for you?

IREP CAKIR: Yes, of course we had it also because I was also working for Australian channel, Swiss sorry, TV also, like, their producer, fixer and journalist for them. So it was always on the edge like a knife, you know, it was very critical every time, you should have your good ties with the government and their affiliates but at the moment for journalists it's a really critical country because the freedom of expression is really under suppression. And we have so many colleagues in the jails. This is not fear.

AMT: Jane, now, and I'm calling you Jane because we're not revealing your name, what is it that worries you about exposing who you are even in a conversation like this?

JANE: I will tell you what happened last night. I think then it will also answer my friend’s objection to what I said to my fear. First of all, I want to say that I am 36-years-old and I lived in the States before so I'm not young and I also have a family, so I'm sure as a mother she would understand my fear better if she was here and she is not here. She is talking in Toronto. And if I was in Toronto, I wouldn't fear as much as I feel this fear here now. On the New Year's Eve, one of the very famous fashion designers Barbaros Şansal in Cyprus, he was in Cyprus and he recorded a video and he posted it online. And somebody complained about him and he was taken under custody in Cyprus, he was returned to Turkey last night and at the airport right as he was getting off the plane, he was beaten. Why? Because he is known, his name is known, his address is known and they beat him. And if it wasn't for the police and the camera to take him from that scene, I don't know what would happen to him. And there are many many many examples like him and they are not, we don't hear about them because they're not as famous as he is. So speaking in Toronto and giving a name, giving my name, would be a different issue if I was not sitting in Istanbul in Kadikoy.

AMT: Tell me how concerned you are. How many kids do you have Jane?

JANE: I'm not married, I live with my boyfriend but the thing is that I work with disabled animals and I have about 20 handicapped, disabled animals under my care. And when I realized things were going so bad I had to make a choice, I would either stand up and talk as freely as I want to or I would stay back and stay safe to protect these animals because they are my responsibility, as if a mother is responsible for their kids. Because without me, if you think of the animal welfare conditions and child care, they are going to die.

AMT: And what about your wider family. How concerned are you for the safety of your relatives?

JANE: About my relatives, I come from a military background family. Although there are many lawyers in my family, I feel that if something happens, if I say something and if I'm taken under custody, they cannot help because I don't know when I will be allowed to contact my lawyer or my family. Now, the state of emergency in Turkey has given the right, the government and the authorities to stop the people under custody to contact their families or lawyers, let me say, minimum five days or seven days.

AMT: Right. And Irep is listening in and she wants to jump in and say something. And I also want to ask you, as you listen, so go ahead and tell me what you wanted to say.

IREP CAKIR: It’s just I agree with Jane, but this is exactly this. The fear cannot take people to anywhere. If it prevails, if fear prevails, then there will be no way out from this chaos for the people, for the people on the street, for the men on the street.

AMT: And in fact, I think what Jane is telling us is that it's harder for you to dream right now isn’t it Jane?

IREP CAKIR: No, but I was there, I know.

JANE: Yes. Because when you are not in the scene yourself, it is very easy to talk about solutions.

IREP CAKIR: No.

JANE: But if they cannot be practiced, I don't think it means anything. So when you are not here, and I also know the Kurdish cities and that part of Turkey, I was there as well, not recently but like two, three years ago. I know the situation very well and I try to send aid to that area as much as I can. But seriously, I mean it, it’s very easy to talk about what can be done when you are not here and when you are not personally not safe. First of all we have to be safe to find a solution.

IREP CAKIR: We need national solidarity above all.

AMT: You know, we were talking about this because of what has just happened in Istanbul. But as you point out, there's the ongoing clash between government and Kurds who want autonomy. There is right over the border, there is a very vicious war--

IREP CAKIR: ISIS.

AMT: There is ISIS. It seems so very complicated and so very fraught.

IREP CAKIR: That's why I was using the term, like Turkey is in the grips of terror at the moment. It's such a bad condition and, you know, it all started, actually, the worst part of this story started in 2015 when Turkey had a very vital, very critical national elections. We had in July and it had to be a repeated in November. And this was the times when the bombings started, and it was the turning point for Turkey. Now we are just going through those days which started with really, like she said actually, bleeding days for our community, for our people. What we need is a national solidarity there. And you know, what I see is actually made there, was not only something like a revenge attack or something because what's happening in Syria, it was very very clearly show off, it was a symbolic attack.

AMT: What happened on New Year's Eve, yeah.

IREP CAKIR: Yes.

AMT: And Jane, Irep is here in Canada, would you consider leaving your home then?

JANE: Me?

AMT: Yeah.

JANE: No. I mean, well, the thing is that if I had a chance I would. And I would not stay here, I would not look back. But this is in theory, I mean, I have so many responsibilities. And if I could find myself a safe place, secure place I could live anywhere. So yes, if I had a chance I would leave right away and not look back.

AMT: OK. We have to leave it there. Thank you both for talking to me.

JANE: Thank you. Thank you very much for giving us this chance.

AMT: Thank you Irep.

IREP CAKIR: Thank you. Thank you.

AMT: That is Irep Cakir. She is a journalist, television producer from Turkey. She moved to Burlington, Ontario in July. She's here with us in Toronto. My other guest lives in the Kadikoy neighbourhood of Istanbul. And we're withholding her name to protect her identity. Let us know what you think as you listened to that conversation. You can find us on Twitter, we’re @TheCurrentCBC, find us on Facebook or go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact link. And stay with us, the CBC News is next. And then Syrian refugees leaving their new homes in Canada for their next new homes in Canada. Some call it a second migration in search of work and family ties. We'll be talking to some. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current.

Back To Top »

Lack of jobs, housing: why some of Canada's Syrian refugees are relocating

Guests: Lina Arafeh, Janet Hunt, Huga Vega, Mayas Altahan, Ali Alashram

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come, an effort to right some historical wrongs right inside the National Archives. Project Naming looks at the thousands of old photographs of Indigenous Canadians filed away without any names. It seeks to put names to the many different faces in order to acknowledge their identity and dignity. That story in half an hour. But first, tales from the second migration.

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AMT: It has been just over a year since a wave of Syrian refugees began arriving in Canada. There is a second migration of Syrian refugees under way now — inside the country. Syrian families are uprooting themselves once again, leaving smaller centres such as Corner Brook and Moncton for bigger cities such as Toronto and Montreal, where employment and community prospects may be better. They are moving the other way as well, leaving places such as Vancouver for less expensive locales and many are finding their way to one southwestern Ontario city in particular, Windsor. We're starting though, in Halifax, where Lina Arafeh settled last September. She says she'll be moving away after her year of private sponsorship is up. Lina Arafeh is in our Halifax studio. Hello.

LINA ARAFEH: Good morning, Anna Maria.

AMT: Well, before we get to your plans to move, why did you come to Canada?

LINA ARAFEH: When I came to Canada, you know, I'm Syrian and there was this horrible war in my country, you know, which made me leave to Turkey first. I left to Turkey in 2012 and lived there. And then I was settling in very well, I was doing very good with my job and stuff but my kids were really very unhappy. They couldn't settle, they couldn't learn the language, they didn't do well at school at all. Two of them had depression, had very severe depression in fact, some of them had lost a lot of weight, the other was losing hair. So, you know, something had to be done.

AMT: How many kids do you have?

LINA ARAFEH: Well, [chuckles] I have nine children all together, but I only brought four of them here because they are the dependent ones.

AMT: So how old are they, the four?

LINA ARAFEH: I have triplets of 18, who have just turned 18 in October this year, and I have another one who will be 17 next month.

AMT: OK. And your other children are adults now?

LINA ARAFEH: They are yes, I have three daughters who have kids in Germany. I have another one who is married and doing his Ph.D. in New Zealand and there is another one in Hungary.

AMT: And where were you living in Syria?

LINA ARAFEH: I am Damascian originally, but I lived in Aleppo all my life. So this is where I belong.

AMT: And so you got out of Aleppo and went to Turkey?

LINA ARAFEH: Yes, that was in September 2012.

AMT: OK. So your children, the triplets and the 17-year-old were not adjusting to Turkey. You could see there was a real problem.

LINA ARAFEH: That's right yes. So when my friend mentioned that, you know, that Canada was very kindly helping people to resettle in Canada, I said yes immediately and I jumped at the, you know, opportunity even though it was, you know, it meant that I had to uproot myself yet again, like, from Syria to Turkey from Turkey to Canada and from Halifax to Toronto then. [chuckles]

AMT: And how do you like life in Halifax?

LINA ARAFEH: I love life in Halifax, I love the people, they are very hospitable. The country is very organized, everything is in place. It's just such a clean country, it's a pleasure to drive in, you know, the schools are amazing. I love Halifax West school. They have helped my kids adjust, they're doing very well. I'm happy, I'm generally very very happy actually.

AMT: And so the kids are doing better? They've adjusted?

LINA ARAFEH: Absolutely. They have like 100s, like, every mark is 100, which is really outstanding, you know, this is a language that they don't really know very well. So they have been getting a lot of help and support and encouragement. I love it.

AMT: And so why are you planning to leave?

LINA ARAFEH: Many reasons actually. First of all, because I am by profession an interpreter, a conference interpreter. This is what I can do very well and this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. I don't think I can find opportunities like this in Halifax. It's a very lucrative business. It's very challenging, not many people do it. So I wanted to keep doing it. And also because my kids have their family also in Toronto, they have their uncles and cousins there.

AMT: So you're, like, you do spontaneous translation?

LINA ARAFEH: That’s right, yes.

AMT: Right, right. OK, and that is a skill. [chuckles]

LINA ARAFEH: It is a skill.

AMT: Right.

LINA ARAFEH: And I love it.

AMT: Mm. Your kids would then have family around them and there's nobody in Halifax right now?

LINA ARAFEH: Exactly, yes. All I have is my sponsor here in Halifax. She has been a family and the homeland and everything. She was marvelous. But again, as you said, you know, children need their uncles, their cousins, they need, you know, family.

AMT: What does your friend who sponsored you think of a move?

LINA ARAFEH: She's worried, she doesn't want to lose me, she loves me. I mean, really, we lived together all our lives, you know. But she keeps telling me that, you know, my interest comes before everything else. If I find my happiness somewhere else then that's where I should go.

AMT: So this is a childhood friend who sponsored you?

LINA ARAFEH: Exactly. I mean, she was three years when I knew her and her family, her mom and dad and my mom and dad were very best friends for decades.

AMT: Are you at all concerned about the cost of living in a place like Toronto?

LINA ARAFEH: Anna Maria, I'm the type of person who never crosses the bridge before it, you know, she gets to them, you know. But when I get there, if I'm doing a very good job, if I have a very good salary, then the cost of housing and shopping is really not that big of a threat to me, I hope.

AMT: And what about uprooting your kids again, are you worried about that?

LINA ARAFEH: No, not at all. They have been very very resilient. These kids I don't know what they're made of, you know, diamond maybe. [chuckles]

AMT: And what was it like for you to leave Aleppo?

LINA ARAFEH: It was heartbreaking. To be honest, when I left Aleppo I never thought it would be, you know, the very last time. I even left my house, my furniture, everything was left just like if I was coming back after a month. Nobody expected the war to last for these years, we only thought that it's going to be two weeks, few weeks. Unfortunately, it was forever, you know, unfortunately.

AMT: Do you have any idea if it's even standing now?

LINA ARAFEH: I have a very good idea that it is occupied by some kind of factions or armed groups or something. Nobody tells me who or which side they are from. But whoever is doing this, I really, don't know what to say. I mean, this whole war was very needless. It was a very very stable country, believe me, I don't know if you've been to Syria but everyone who has been to Syria say that it's a very peaceful place.

AMT: Do you have any hopes of being able to return or do you think that your life will be in Canada for a long time?

LINA ARAFEH: I think it's going to be in Canada forever. But I will want to go and visit and try to, you know, try to see the place where I was born and raised, yes. But I don't think I can ever live in Aleppo again because it is not going to look like the Aleppo that I left, you know. Yeah.

AMT: Mm. And you don't seem to, given your language skills and the fact that you do do spontaneous translation, you expect that you will be able to get work?

LINA ARAFEH: In Toronto you mean?

AMT: Yes.

LINA ARAFEH: Yes, I expect I will be able to find work of course. Because there is a much bigger Arabic community there and I don't know if there are any workshops or training courses that I'm accustomed to doing but eventually I will find something that will make me very happy. Right now I'm doing online written translation, which is keeping me very busy and also which is paying my rent which I'm very very happy for. [chuckles]

AMT: Lina, it's really good to talk to you and I wish you the best of luck.

LINA ARAFEH: Thank you Anna Maria, thank you very much. Bye bye.

AMT: Lina Arafeh, arrived as a refugee from Syria and went to Halifax. Maritime provinces have lead the country, in terms of settling Syrian refugees, with New Brunswick especially eager to welcome new Canadians, in part because of its own aging population. And most of its new arrivals are staying so far but a small percentage have left. More could say they're considering moving on, which can be hard to hear for the New Brunswickers who have sponsored and supported them. Janet Hunt is part of a welcome team helping Syrian families settle in and around St. John. We've reached her in Quispamsis, New Brunswick. Hello.

JANET HUNT: Hello.

AMT: Why did you get involved in supporting Syrian refugees?

JANET HUNT: Well, I've always enjoyed volunteer work and there was a call for volunteers, with the influx of refugees that were coming in in January of this year. And my husband and I both decided to go at one of the meetings and we just wanted to get more information but we didn't realize that then the following night we'd be at the airport waiting for our Syrian family to arrive.

When they originally came, they were at the hotel where most of the Syrian refugees were staying. So it was up to us to, you know, find housing for them. And then from there we had to get household furnishings, beds, basically starting from scratch.

AMT: And they're not the only family you were meeting and helping to support are they?

JANET HUNT: No, a couple of months later through our original family, we met another family that we've become very close with. And we've been helping them as well, and through them we've met three other families, unfortunately, who have since moved away.

AMT: Mm. And why did they move away?

JANET HUNT: I think it was more for the job opportunity because they felt that there wasn't enough jobs here in New Brunswick.

AMT: Mm. And the other families you're supporting, are they considering leaving as well?

JANET HUNT: Well, actually our second family, they’re originally from Aleppo and they were thinking of moving to Montreal because he is a factory mechanic and he has friends in Montreal who have been asking them to go. And after probably two or three trips to Montreal he came back and he has decided to stay at least for another year. So we're very happy about that.

AMT: And what was the turning point? What made him decide to do that?

JANET HUNT: Well, I think he realized, you know, I mean, we've become more than friends, we've become this extended family to each other. And I think he saw how really disappointed and heartbroken we were that they were leaving.

AMT: It would make you sad to see them all go then?

JANET HUNT: Oh, absolutely. And I mean, there was no, I mean, I'm an emotional person, so my emotions are on the surface. And they saw how sad I was when they announced that they were leaving but, you know, they have they have friends in the bigger centres and I think that's a big advantage to them as well. That they want to be with their friends and because you have to understand that they were in camps for two years before coming here. So of course they made a lot of friends in those camps and a lot of friends have settled in the bigger centres.

AMT: Right. And of course they've got, so they have shared experience, they have a shared language.

JANET HUNT: Exactly. And that’s the big thing, it’s the language. Although our second family is doing much better with the language than our first family, because they were not a put where the majority of the Syrians were located. So they were kind of on their own in a separate area of the city and so that they really had to, you know, they really had to learn their English, they didn't have a choice.

AMT: And you think that helped, kind of forced it?

JANET HUNT: Oh, absolutely. Yes, yes. Now, our first family, they're having a more difficult time because they're with a lot more Syrians in their community. So of course their language of choice is going to be Arabic. And so of course instead of learning their English they're speaking Arabic probably 90 per cent of the time. As my husband keeps telling them, their success is dependent on learning English. And I think I feel too that if they go to the bigger centres, there are already, you know, Syrian and Muslim communities there and I think they feel that if they went there then they wouldn't have to speak English, they could speak their language, be comfortable and work in that whole area without having to speak a lot of English, sadly.

AMT: Your family, your friends that are staying now, are you able to help him find work around St. John?

JANET HUNT: Well, we're hoping. It's a little bit more difficult. Our first dad is a master craftsman and he does really nice work. And I'm hoping that he will stay and eventually open up a business and hire Syrian and Canadian. I think he would do well here being a master craftsman. Now, the factory worker or factory mechanic is going to be a little bit more challenging because there aren't very many jobs here, especially if you're not fluent in English.

AMT: Mm. But these families have really become part of your life now?

JANET HUNT: Oh, absolutely. We have them over for meals all the time. And they're so gracious and kind because every time we go there they feel the need to always feed us. As I said, they're much more than our friends, they're now our family.

AMT: Well, you sound very committed to wanting to help people settle in your community.

JANET HUNT: They're just very kind and generous people and all they want to do is basically, you know, just live and work if they can. And they certainly don't want to be a burden on the government. That's one thing that I've come to learn from these families. They really want to be self-sufficient and they want to work.

AMT: OK, well, Janet Hunt, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

JANET HUNT: Thank you very much.

AMT: Janet Hunt, volunteer supporting Syrian refugees as they settle in St. John, New Brunswick and the surrounding area. We reached her in Quispamsis, New Brunswick.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: hockey sticks slashing]

[Arabic speaking language]

VOICE 1: [Through translator] It's a way to know new people, you know, to have friends. And know stuff about Canada.

AMT: Well, she's talking about hockey, or ball hockey to be exact. One of the new arrivals from Syria playing in Windsor's Refugee Women's ball hockey league. That alone is a pretty good indicator that the southwestern Ontario city has welcomed a good number of Syrian refugees. The community and the opportunities there have made Windsor a popular destination for Syrian refugees across Canada making their second migration to a new home there. Hugo Vega is the Windsor YMCA’s general manager of settlement and community services. He's also the chair of the Windsor Essex Local Immigration Partnership. And he's in our Windsor studio. Hello.

HUGO VEGA: Hi, good morning Anna Maria.

AMT: How many Syrian refugees have moved to Windsor from other locations in Canada this year?

HUGO VEGA: So we have statistics from a regional coordination language and assessment referral system, they’re just our local CLARS here in Windsor. And they estimate that we have about 500 families in the past year since January that have moved. So that includes Syrians but they don't have clear data as to how many Syrians that entails. We have data in our database at the YMCA and we have 79 individuals in the last 12 months that have moved, Syrian specifically.

AMT: and they've moved from other parts of Canada to Windsor?

HUGO VEGA: That's correct, yes.

AMT: And what is it? Why are they coming to Windsor?

HUGO VEGA: So we actually asked that question and we've been asking that for a while. And the number one reason is family and friends. They have some sort of connection, either here in Windsor or very nearby, our proximity to the US is a factor in that as well.

AMT: OK, and where are they coming from?

HUGO VEGA: So they come from all over. We have statistics that show that Toronto is a huge point from where they come from. But we see people from Saskatchewan, from New Brunswick, from all over the country.

AMT: And do you know if there are any other places seeing a similar influx of refugees who are moving within Canada?

HUGO VEGA: So nationally this is a conversation we're starting to have, this secondary migration phenomenon. And there isn't a lot of information about it. We don't know which centres are, you know, have a net migration in, net migration out. But the sector in general starting to look at this and trying to understand it.

AMT: And one of the draws is the large Arabic speaking population. We've also heard from refugees that being immersed in an Arabic speaking community can make it more difficult to learn English and integrate. But what are your thoughts on that?

HUGO VEGA: I think there's two sides of the coin. I think there is some merit to that. But initially the priority for all new comers in the first six months to a year is really to meet their immediate basic needs. That's housing, healthcare, education, and daily activities need to be part of that. I mean, they need to be able to go to the grocery store and to, you know, be able to do the basic things to get themselves established. So being able to not have an added barrier of language if there isn't enough interpretation in a community is a key part of that. So to remove that barrier in the onset of their settlement process will help them long term. And I think a lot of it has to do with motivation. If they're motivated to learn English, that initial six months to a year will be easier with the supports but long term they will be able to succeed. I understand that it can be a hindrance at times because, you know, people do get comfortable. But we see people succeed when we look at it in the bigger picture.

AMT: How about the job hunt?

HUGO VEGA: So that's, you know, Windsor over the last few years is emerging out of its own sort of economic hardship. We used to have the highest unemployment rate in the country and now that's changed drastically. So I think newcomers are bringing in new blood into that economic development as well, and we're seeing them open up their own businesses and really supplying the labour that we need as well in areas that we're in short of.

AMT: And what kind of businesses?

HUGO VEGA: So a lot of restaurants, a lot of businesses that actually cater to their own community.

AMT: OK, well, Hugo Vega, stay with us. You have some people in that studio with you right now, and I'd like to introduce them. Ali Alashram and Mayas Altahan are refugees from Syria. They have two children, three-year-old Karam and baby Aya, who I understand is sleeping in the studio right now, three-months-old. They have moved to Windsor from Moncton, New Brunswick. They join us with Laure Khalil, who is a translator. Hello everyone.

ALI ALASHRAM: Hello.

MAYAS ALTAHAN: Hello.

AMT: Ali Alashram, what was life like before you came to Canada? Tell us what Syria was like as you were getting out of there?

ALI ALASHRAM: [Arabic speaking language] [through translator] So the life in Syria was quiet and prosperous, everything was good.

AMT: When you left, what were you hoping to escape? How bad was it getting?

ALI ALASHRAM: [through translator] So it was so hard for me to get the food, essential needs and I was also in prison for quite a time also.

AMT: Who had imprisoned you?

ALI ALASHRAM: [through translator] The regime.

AMT: Right. So you had to get out?

ALI ALASHRAM: [through translator] So I was actually forced to leave because they were trying to get me again in the prison.

AMT: And what job were you doing before you were in prison? What kind of work did you do?

ALI ALASHRAM: [Arabic speaking language]

LAURE KHALIL: He was a tailor.

AMT: Mayas Altahan, you ended up in Moncton, New Brunswick. Why did you want to leave Moncton?

MAYAS ALTAHAN: [Arabic speaking language] [through translator] I have family members here and they were able to support me, especially with my kids. And also the weather, over there it was so cold and for me here it’s warmer.

AMT: And Ali Alashram, how do you find life in Windsor now?

ALI ALASHRAM: [through translator] So Windsor is different, I feel like safe and I feel happy like the way it was in Syria before.

AMT: And what about work? How will you as a tailor, are you able to work now in Windsor?

ALI ALASHRAM: [through translator] It’s just because of the language barrier, that’s it.

AMT: Mayas Altahan, what do you think of living in Windsor?

MAYAS ALTAHAN: [through translator] The community is very welcoming and they just whenever they see us, we feel that we’re welcomed, and we're having a lot of support.

AMT: And Mayas, what do you hope for the future of your children?

MAYAS ALTAHAN: [through translator] So I'm very happy for my kids because they're going to have a bright future. The education is very, it’s awesome, and everything is well taken care by everybody here for the kids.

AMT: Hugo Vega, what challenges are there facing people like Ali and Mayas as they settle in Windsor? Is it more difficult for them because this is their second upheaval, their second effort to put down roots or does that help them in some ways?

HUGO VEGA: I think that comes down to the individual. I think the motivation was there. They weren't in Moncton for too long. It sounds like they had a great community there and there was other Syrians. But they have freedom of mobility and that's something that's, you know, that we embrace as far as, you know, their choice as a newcomer, to be here, you know, they’ve spend time in a conflict that didn't allow them any freedom and so they've made that decision and now I think they're like anybody else, moving to a new community, whether they are a newcomer to the country or not, they're just going to re-establish themselves and start looking into the future.

AMT: OK, well, thank you all of you for speaking to me. And Ali and Mayas, the best of luck to you and I guess baby Aya’s still sleeping. We didn't hear her. [chuckles] Thank you.

MANY VOICES: Thank you.

AMT: Hugo Vega, Windsor YMCA’s general manager of settlement and community services, also chair of the Windsor Essex Local Immigration Partnership. With him, Ali Alashram and Mayas Altahan, they arrived as refugees from Syria. Laure Khalil was translating for us. They all joined us from Windsor, Ontario. Let us know what you think as you listen to them and as they move. Different people move from different parts of the country in search of maybe jobs or family connections. You can tweet us we’re @TheCurerntCBC, find us on Facebook, go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent, click on the Contact link. If you're joining us partway through, you can download the podcast or listen right online. Now, stay with us.

SOUNDCLIP

Really it is about adding names to photographs, correcting historical records and correcting past wrongs and giving people back their identity.

AMT: Giving people back their identity. That is the ultimate goal of something called Project Naming. It's an effort to put names to faces in historical photographs of Indigenous Canadians. We're going to hear from the manager at Library and Archives Canada who's responsible for that project. We'll also hear from someone who's been able to find her own family members in those pictures. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM and online on cbc.ca/thecurrent.

[Music: Extro]

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Project adds Indigenous names to Canadian history

Guests: Deborah Kigjugalik Webster, Beth Greenhorn, Jeff Thomas

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Tupak and Akuitak are coming into the post to trade. They are looking forward to a mugup of tea and pilot biscuits at the trader's house. The two Eskimos admire the wooden buildings of the white man. But for their own dwelling they will build an igloo.

AMT: Well, the tone of that 1949 National Film Board movie may be rather condescending, at least the two men in question were identified by name. Because if you look through the tens of thousands of early photographs of Indigenous people in Canada's National Archives, you'll see that that detail, an individual's name, was often not deemed worth recording. The early photos in the archives will often identify a white man or woman with their full names but refer to an Indigenous person with a label such as Eskimo, native or half breed, if they're identified at all. Now, since 2002 a project at Library and Archives Canada has been trying to correct that through an initiative called Project Naming, and the results have been more than just symbolic. It has helped my next guest find and identify members of her community and even her own family. Deborah Kigjugalik Webster is a heritage researcher and author, originally from Baker Lake, Nunavut. And she is in our Ottawa studio. Hello.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Good morning.

AMT: Well, this is personal for you, huh? Looking at all of these pictures, who have you been able to identify through this project?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: I've been able to identify some people from my community and some relatives and also some people who worked for the RCMP, because that's what I'm doing research on right now.

AMT: And what does it feel like when you are able to put a name to the photo of someone important to you?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Project Naming gives us the opportunity to take part in reclaiming our history. So I feel very gratified when I’m able to name someone and it gives me a sense of, you know, honouring them or being respectful.

AMT: It's really true. I mean, when you look at a picture and there's no identification of someone, it's completely different when you look at that picture and they have a name.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Right. Yes.

AMT: Mm. And you partner with your mother to try to identify photos. What does it mean to your mom?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: My mom lived a traditional nomadic life before she moved into the community. And she knows a lot of these people in the picture, she can identify a lot of people. I think it means a lot, like, to be able to see these images because Inuit didn't have cameras and only moved into settlement like in the sixties or so. So to see these pictures, it's very exciting.

AMT: Mm. Are there times when you looked at a photo and said I know who that is?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Yes. Yeah. [chuckles] For my aunt. Oh, it's such a beautiful photo of her as a young woman. And I hadn't seen it before, so we shared this with family. It was very special because she has since passed.

AMT: And so how old is she in the picture?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: She's in her twenties.

AMT: How old was she when she died?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: She was in her sixties, I’d say, yeah.

AMT: But you could recognize her?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Oh yes. Yeah. Her features, you know, just her smile. It was very special.

AMT: How old is your mother?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: I'm not sure, she's late sixties or so.

AMT: Mm. So for her to look at these pictures, it can take her right back to her youth, huh?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Oh yes. And what it does for us, it creates a lot of discussion. When you learn something about a photo you can talk to other people and find out names, who they're related to, what they did, share the photo and then you learn little stories about them and I find that part very interesting.

AMT: How does the process actually work in identifying somebody? How do you go about choosing a photo and then working with it to identify someone?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: You can search by community, by photographer. There's different keywords you can use and you can see all the pictures from your hometown.

AMT: As you do that and you talk about the excitement of seeing somebody you know, the other side of that is you see people who have been basically rendered nameless. What does that make you feel like as you go through photo after photo?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: I realize that this was the way it was in the past. People were often called native so-and-so or Eskimo whatever. In not all cases though, some people did identify people by name. But it's like, you know, that history is lost. So this is why I like taking part in looking at the photos on Project Naming.

AMT: Mm. Tell me about some of the things you've learned about Baker Lake and the community that you hadn't known before you started looking at those pictures?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: I'm a heritage researcher. I guess I just like being put right back there in time, seeing how people were dressed. You can tell different regions by their clothing, you can tell, there's one I'm looking at right now, a woman smoking a pipe and she has these old fashioned glasses on, [chuckles] very vintage photos of life and in igloos or tents, like, this is before settlement. So it takes you right back.

AMT: Mm. So the picture you have in front of you, the woman is she like posing? Is she out in the outdoors? Is she in like a studio? What's going on around her?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Well, she's with her family. Her name is Hattie. She's sewing kamiks, some footwear with, you know, caribou skin footwear. Her son Itkad is there and so is her husband, he had different names, in this photo his name is Pork. But in literature he's also known as Pook or Porky. He worked for the RCMP as a special constable and the RCMP used to call him Native Joe. So when we learned about this photo, we were able to identify this Joe as people from Baker Lake. And I know who the family is now.

AMT: Have they seen the photo?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Yes. Yeah. And that went on Facebook and people were commenting. It's a great photo, in an igloo with a phonograph and a record playing and a lantern in the background. Quite a good image.

AMT: So it really, it also documents lifestyle in a way that's important then to look back, right?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Yes. Yeah.

AMT: And you’re talking about this project you're doing, these were Inuit who were working with the RCMP? They were special constables?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Yes. Because when I read the literature, Inuit are often not named, they would say Eskimo guide. But these were special constables and they contributed to our history and sovereignty in Canada. And I'm working on this project to really recognize and honour them.

AMT: And so as you've been going through this, do you have other examples of people that you have helped identify?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: There are some tough ones. There's one I was looking at for Inuit men. It was taken in 1893 and it's still a little mystery for me, maybe one day. But it might be possible that we'll never be able to identify them. Possibly five generations back, we can't recognize anyone by their facial features. [chuckles]

AMT: Yeah, I guess it becomes crucial then right? Because you have to have either the subjects in the picture living or their immediate relatives who can give you the information.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Right. And this is why, you know, it's important for the elders to be looking at the photos now before it's too late.

AMT: Mm. And when we're talking about names, there's a real spiritual connection to names is there not in your culture?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Yes.

AMT: Talk to me a little bit about that.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: There is. For example, I'm Kigjugalik and I'm named after my great grandmother. She's my mother's mother's mother. [chuckles] And so I have some of her traits. Even though I've never known her, like, she died before I was born, I feel her spirit I guess. And I have connections with other people who share her name as well, Kigjugalik. So it's like we're related, we're connected in a certain way, even if not by blood.

AMT: And again that's why it's so important to document the names.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Yes.

AMT: Yeah. And so even Canadians who might not have any connection to these photos would be able to look at this and actually see a person instead of a nameless person, right? To see somebody with a name.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: That’s right.

AMT: It becomes important to everyone.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: It is. Just like last names are, you know, you can connect with someone who shares your same last name. When you see someone with a name you can learn more about them and have that connection.

AMT: And can you just clarify are there first and last names?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Well, there used to be like one name. And then for people to be able to identify you, Inuit were given numbers, like, Eskimo numbers, E numbers and then the naming project came along where you could write your name the way it is in English, like, for for the government. Now people often have two names.

AMT: Mm. But that was sort of imposed is what you're saying, it was imposed?

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Yes. Yes.

AMT: That's the European culture.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: That's right. Like a Christian first name and then your last name but that wasn't our tradition.

AMT: And the number, just explain that to me again.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: So an E number is an Eskimo number or disk. And each Inuk had a number assigned to them. So E-1-1 was a person from Eskimo Point or Arviat, as it’s now known. I know who he is. From then on, like, the numbers would increase and they would be different numbers for different communities. And it was like probably like a sin number but that was instead of using names because non-Inuit found it very difficult to pronounce Inuktitut or spell names.

AMT: OK. And now all of that hopefully has changed once and for all.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Oh, yes. [chuckles]

AMT: Well it's really important to hear what you're doing. Thank you so much for your time.

DEBORAH KIGJUGALIK WEBSTER: Thank you.

AMT: That's Deborah Kigjugalik Webster. She's a heritage researcher and author, she's also the author of a children's book published this year, it's called Akilak's Adventure. She joined us from Ottawa. And we'll be putting some of the photos she described on our Facebook page and our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Project Naming marks its 15th anniversary this March and while it is a time to celebrate what it has accomplished, the project does take on a new urgency with every passing year, as it gets more difficult to put names to faces. Beth Greenhorn is the manager of Project Naming at Library and Archives Canada. And she's in our Ottawa studio. Hello.

BETH GREENHORN: Good morning.

AMT: How did this project get started?

BETH GREENHORN: It was really the inspiration of Murray Angus, who was an instructor with Nunavut Sivuniksavut Training Program. This is a post-secondary college based in Ottawa. And for years Murray had been bringing students from the college to, at that time it was the National Archives, and the students were given the task to go through the research reference card catalogs and to find photos of their family members or communities, and then they could take a picture home at Christmas time. And really what they were finding was that most Inuit that were described in the pictures either had no names, they were called Eskimo half breed, native, they were anonymous. And so the project really began as a way to reclaim these past names and to create dialogue between Inuit youth and elders.

AMT: And how has that evolved over the last 15 years then?

BETH GREENHORN: We started with a small collection from Richard Harrington, he was a Toronto based photographer who spent about four or five years in what is present day Nunavut. Of those 500 photos, about 75 per cent of the people depicted in these images were identified. So really from the beginning it was very successful. The project has just gained momentum over the years and it's gained a lot of interest from remote communities in Nunavut and elsewhere. Since May 2015, we have officially expanded the project so it now includes First Nations, Métis and Inuit communities from all over Canada.

AMT: Is there a difference between the different groups and your ability to have people identify them?

BETH GREENHORN: Yes, I'd say there is. Because the project began with a partnership with Nunavut Sivuniksavut and the government of Nunvaut, there are 26 communities in the territory of Nunavut and over the last 15 years, we’ve been able to establish some good networks and relationships with community groups and individuals who are from those areas and communities. With First Nations, it’s a huge group of people, it’s from like coast to coast to coast just trying to establish a dialogue and some engagement with those specific communities because they are so diverse. That’s a challenge for First Nations. And for Métis, I'd say one of the biggest challenges we've had is that Métis are even harder to find within our collections, very often they've been not recognised as being Métis, they've been misdescribed as possibly being First Nations or of French-Canadian ancestry. A lot of the community literally had to go underground after 1885, when Louis Riel their leader was executed for treason. And for a hundred years or so Métis individuals didn't self-identify as being Métis and so our collections largely reflect that.

AMT: Right. And so and again when you were looking solely in the Nunavut area with Inuit you had smaller communities and you knew where to go to essentially ask. But in some of these other photos that you're talking about do you even know the geographical location of all of them?

BETH GREENHORN: No, sometimes if we're lucky we know at least the province or territory, and sometimes we will have some clues within the original archival description where that photo was taken, but sometimes it's a mystery to us. There's a lot of areas in Canada where it's bush, as you well know, and it's the wilderness, so if there's no trees then you can say OK, well this was probably above the tree line but if it's in a foresty area or even in the plains, it's sometimes just very difficult to be able to pinpoint that. So sometimes what you can do is then look at different clues within that photo. So one of the ways that we've been able to access and identify possible Métis images is through different symbols that are associated with their cultures. So we would be looking at if there's a Red River cart or a York boat or if they are wearing a sash that's tied to the front, that's usually an indicator that it's a Métis person. You're in a race against time right now aren't you?

BETH GREENHORN: Pretty much, yes.

AMT: What does success look like for you on this project then?

BETH GREENHORN: Well, I guess any photos that we have where an individual’s identified is a success. We do have thousands of photographs. I don't think we’re ever going to get them all named or digitized but the ones that we do have online, any information that we can gather about the individuals that are depicted in them or the activities is a positive move forward.

AMT: How much improvement has there been when it comes to people in those photos that you're getting as the century wore on, to actually being named in the picture by the photographer before you get it?

BETH GREENHORN: The chances are much higher. There is a new sensitivity and a way of seeing different cultures as being as valid and important as a significant part of the Canadian fabric. That's compared to the past. Maybe it's not 100 per cent of the time but the chances of a photograph, for example, of an Inuit person from Pangnirtung, Nunavut being identified in a contemporary photo is certainly much higher than it would have been in 1910 or earlier.

AMT: OK. Well, really interesting project, we will link to your site on ours. Thank you for your time today.

BETH GREENHORN: Thanks so much.

AMT: Beth Greenhorn manages Project Naming at Library and Archives Canada. She's in our Ottawa studio. Now I mentioned earlier, we will put a few photos from the National Archives Naming Project on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. So you can take a look. Our next guest has spent a lot of time inside the archives poring over these images, with the eyes of an artist, curator and Indigenous Canadian. Jeff Thomas is a photo-based artist and independent curator. We have reached him in Ottawa. Hello.

JEFF THOMAS: Hello.

AMT: So you've worked with the photos in the Library and Archives Canada collection. What did you think when you first saw them?

JEFF THOMAS: When I first saw them was around 1994. And I moved to Ottawa specifically to do research at Library and Archives. And I remember that the first time that I went in, I really had no sense of what I was getting myself into. But it was a card index file and there was I don't know how many rows of metal cabinets that held these index cards with photocopies, small photocopies of the image on the card. I found the section that had native people Inuit and Métis. It was really for me an interesting experience to begin to see the breadth of types of photographs that documented Indigenous people in Canada.

AMT: How were they labeled?

JEFF THOMAS: Well they were labeled by tribal group, by geographic group, they were broken down into different categories. One of the issues that came up in terms of how they were titled and what kind of caption information was accompanying the photographs is really what brought me into Library and Archives in 1994 on a temporary work project to write new captions for the photographs in the collection that had retained inappropriate words like red skin, half breed, squaw, Eskimo. Those types of words that really felt out of time and out of touch. It was really fascinating for me to be able to go through and just to pull these images out and look at them and peer into our collective past. So I would track down, I think there were about 100 images that I eventually wrote new captions for.

AMT: You also curated an exhibit of some of the pictures you were originally looking at.

JEFF THOMAS: I came to Ottawa with no academic background credentials for the work that I wanted to do. I more or less showed up and said I'm interested in looking at Native people in the collection, and I started from there. So in 1996, the exhibition the Aboriginal Portraits from the National Archives of Canada opened and it was the first time, I think, that an exhibition like that took place that really looked at the importance of the collection. And I really was specific about wanting to title it Aboriginal Portraits because I wanted to bring the audience in with a sense of looking at a past but also looking at a portrait, because a portrait humanizes. Whether you have the documentary information along with it the names of the people or whatever, there's still something that you can grasp from looking at another person's face on a very fundamental level. It was going and just using the simple word as portrait. But that also carried over in terms of how words or even one or two words could change the way that we look at a photograph of an Indian. One example was a photograph that was identified as Sue Squaw. And it was a very distinguished looking woman looking full frame into the camera. And I thought when I looked at her she looked like she was a mother, a grandmother, an elder but very important in her community. Not having her name in that, I simply changed the two words to Dakota woman.

AMT: And this is a professional pursuit but also personal, huh? You are an Indigenous person.

JEFF THOMAS: Yes.

AMT: And so to see those pictures and to see those labels and to be part of changing that, what's that like for you?

JEFF THOMAS: Well, you know, it's funny, I never really thought about it up until more recently, since I've been working for quite a number of years now in this area. But, you know, it was kind of a slow pace in the beginning but over time as this, the way I'd like to refer to as our self-determination movement, began to pick up steam in knowing and establishing ourselves as how we see ourselves in the world and to the outside world became more important, archives became more important. And I remember that the first years that I was sitting in the research room, I never saw another Indigenous person in there but it was over a period of time that I began to see more and more. And one woman just struck up a conversation with me and she was from out west in Alberta and she was looking for her ancestors and she was going through the same catalog that I had got through a number of years earlier. So for me it was gratifying and I've been seeing a lot of programs that have been taking place where people are looking at archival collections and identifying their relatives and their ancestors. So for me I feel that it's a real important step, because one thing I began with, the one question was what if we didn't have this history to look at? What if photographers and painters and anthropologists hadn’t taken the time to study Indigenous people back then? Not taken into account the problematics of colonization and that. But just to think about going into an archive and being able to see our past, and fundamentally what does that mean to us as a people? When we look at the residential school system and talking about erasure, cultural erasure, our identity, well then we have something that we can look at and build upon. So whether we have all the names and the information, we still can look at images and see our ancestors there and I think that that's quite an important step.

AMT: So you think this can contribute to the process of reconciliation?

JEFF THOMAS: It certainly does. When we talk about reconciliation, we're talking about looking at not only in the development of ourselves as a people and healing, but also with the general population. Because as people, we've been isolated from mainstream society for such a long time that now we're talking about, OK, so how do we reconcile the fact that we live in cities now? And how do we begin to address that in terms of finding our own place in the city and developing relationships with people that are non-Indigenous? And so this is all part of that process. And what I find fascinating is being able to use photographs, because it's something that everybody understands, in terms of having family photographs or family albums. And in fact, that's how my career began, as a young boy my grandmother showing me her shoe box filled with photographs, family photographs. And I remember what it was like for her to tell me stories about the people in the photographs, where they were taken. And my expectation when it grew up was to find photographs that looked the same, that identified and showed people that I had seen in my grandmother's photographs. But it was quite different, it was quite a different reality of seeing this stereotype as opposed to everyday life.

AMT: So those photos, with all of their flaws remain important?

JEFF THOMAS: Yes. When I moved to Ottawa I came to study the work of the photographer Edward S. Curtis. Library and Archives had two complete volumes of his 20 volume set, The North American Indian. And I wanted to be able to study his work firsthand and to get a sense of what I thought about it and to build my own sense of conversation with Edward S. Curtis. He's been a controversial figure because he's been kind of tagged as not having really told the reality of First Nations or Indigenous people at the turn of the 20th century. There was something there. There was something nagging at me that said that there's something here that's going on and I want to find out what it was. And eventually I found that in fact he did have conversations with the people he worked with and he noted in The North American Indian, the names of the people that he worked with and their stories he attributed to the storytellers as well. So that was quite different in terms of just looking at the kind of static pose of being and gazed upon. This was something where there was interaction taking place, so I felt this is something that could be built upon as well. Over the course of my career as a photo based artist, that's been the priority, is working with historical images and creating juxtapositions, conversations but just to stimulate some sort of energy around these images.

AMT: Well, I think we can keep the conversation going then. Thank you so much for your time today.

JEFF THOMAS: OK, no problem.

AMT: Thank you very much. Bye bye.

JEFF THOMAS: Bye.

AMT: Jeff Thomas, photo based artist and independent curator He joined us from Ottawa. You can head to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent to see some images from Project Naming. That's our program for today. Remember you can take The Current with you on the CBC Radio app free from the App Store or Google Play. And after that conversation we just had on Project Naming and efforts to do a better job of telling Canada’s stories, we'll leave you with some music from Gord Downie in his last album Secret Path. It tells the story of a 12-year-old Ojibwe boy named Chanie Wenjack who was found dead after fleeing a Kenora, Ontario residential school in 1968. This song is The Stranger. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, thank you for listening to The Current.

[Music: Gord Downie]

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January 3, 2016 full episode transcript

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