Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2016

The Current Transcript for December 14, 2016

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

I’m 100 per cent sure I will be tortured until death by Assad regime. I don’t know what will happen to my family if they capture them.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: As troops loyal to the Assad regime moved closer and rebel held neighbourhoods of Aleppo shrunk to a few square kilometres, you could hear the panic in some and the resignation in others among those still left inside. And then it was supposed to be over with a ceasefire and withdrawal. Over the last 24 hours there have been stories of executions by government troops and images of so many others walking out, the looks on their faces as hollow as the buildings from which they emerged. In a moment, we'll hear from those still inside and from the UN official trying to track what's happening to them. And then, the ones who got away..

SOUNDCLIP

The best day was, like, 7th December, because we have been one year in Canada right now.

AMT: She's in school, she even has a new baby sister. One of many Syrian children and adults fleeing all sides of the Syrian war. They have been welcomed by the government and regular Canadians. But adjusting to life here and reconciling what and who they have left behind has its own challenges. One year on, we bring you the stories of Syrians who now call Canada home. Hear them in half an hour. And long before Syria's descent into war, chaos engulfed Somalia. And out of the madness of the capital Mogadishu, came a new mayor.

SOUNDCLIP

The people of Mogadishu they used to live in fear. The people of Mogadishu, they used to live in dark. The people of Mogadishu, they used to live in garbage and filth areas. We want to free them from that.

AMT: Mohamud "Tarzan" Nur, part thug, part visionary, only got so far. Now he's running for president in a race he is unlikely to win. But his story and the story of his city, his country, offers hard lessons for those now wondering what kind of a future Syria has. The mayor of Mogadishu, in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current.

Back To Top »

'They are dying in the streets': Aleppo ceasefire fails, civilians trapped

Guests: Zouhir Al Shimale, Lina Shamy, Rupert Colville

SOUNDCLIP

Now the situation inside the eastern part of Aleppo is the doomsday. Bombs are everywhere, people are running, they don’t know where. Bombs here are like rain, people really don’t know what to do.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It is the last gasp of panic from inside eastern Aleppo, before government forces finally wrested it away from rebels yesterday. And with that, the vicious four yearlong battle for the Syrian city appeared to come to an end. But even as troops loyal to the regime of Bashar al-Assad moved into the last neighbourhoods held by rebels, it became clear that a ceasefire, an evacuation agreement that should have been happening by early morning wasn't going well. And you can hear that in the background, as they I to get information from Zouhir Al Shimale, a freelance journalist who's still living in eastern Aleppo. Tell me what the situation is like right now?

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: The situation is going really intense, unbelievably intense.

[Sound: bomb exploding, airplanes screeching]

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: Hours ago, as you can hear from the background, the heavy bombardment over the city, it’s raining hell right now. And they are using all kind of weapons but they haven’t used war planes yet. All artilleries and ground launched attacks, missiles, are hitting the areas here and we don’t know until now, as the attack’s still ongoing, how many causalities there are and if they are in the ground, under the rubbles or in the streets, or need to be taken care of as we cannot go out. And they are dying in the streets because they have no treatment, they have no cars to take them to the hospital or medical points to take treatment.

AMT: There was supposed to be a ceasefire so that everyone could get out, including the rebel fighters. What happened?

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: We thought that fighting would all end and we will be leaving the city today morning at 5:00am. But they were deprived by Iran, by Iranian checkpoints and they were told that they would killed. But they haven’t had any information about going back again, they have seen it here and as the bombing and attacks, the ceasefire is done and over, they will not let anybody to leave and they will carry on with their killing, as we have more than 50 to 60,000 people, mostly women and children are living here in the city.

AMT: 50 to 60,000 people are left, you think. How many are civilians, how many are fighters? Can you tell?

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: I can't tell the percentage. But, you know, most of the percentage of the people are families, are women and children and men who are, you know, maybe between 70 or 80 per cent of all amount of people who are still stuck here.

[Sound: bomb blasts]

AMT: That sounds really close to you.

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: Yes. Gosh. It was in my streets, I can see the smoke that are from the windows. Beneath me they are dropping some sort of new weapons. I don’t know, the attacks is [unintelligible] right now.

[Sound: yelling in the background]

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: And many people are screaming from the streets.

[Sound: yelling in the background]

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: Yes, so this is how the situation is, it’s going really crazy and we are getting bombed with enormous amount of bombardment and we can do nothing but stay in our house. Where we are right now, this is how the situation is, you have heard from the background, and it’s going really crazy.

[Sound: bomb blast]

AMT: And so with all of that fighting, there were supposed to be buses that would show up to get people out. That didn't happen?

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: No, no, no buses happened or tried to carry people or injured civilians who take them from east part of Aleppo.

AMT: From where you are, what are people telling you then? Like, who is who is around you, what do you see?

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: I mean, like, a big shelter, it’s a building shelter for men. And in the next of this building, there is a next building that includes a woman and the kids. We are staying here in this building, in this place, not a basement, it’s a kind of two floors. And we’re just sitting and trying to take cover.

[Sound: bomb blast]

AMT: So.

[Sound: bomb blast]

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: Yes.

AMT: OK. I'm going to let you go, unless there's something you think you want to say.

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: Just go and do something for Syrian people who are in the streets. Try to do something to demonstrate against the Russian and the Syrian state, trying to make against a pressure against them. Even it seems somehow useless and it can do nothing. But at some point, this is what civilian can do right now.

AMT: Are you at all hopeful that there will be another ceasefire, that they will try to get you out of there?

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: Maybe we are about to face an execution, like, an execution, murders right? Next few hours in the regime, as they are not very far from here. They are less than 1 kilometres far from my are and if they take offensive against us here, so we will might be killed. So just do something if you can. Just go and demonstrate, this is the simple thing that every civilian and human being can do in Canada and all around the world. But I was expecting today morning that there will be an evacuation, but they have not any evacuations. So I will have hope in this point and maybe we survive. So as I told you, as long as I have breath in my lungs and my heart is beating, so I will just keep hope.

AMT: OK, Zouhir. I'll let you go. Zouhir, thank you.

ZOUHIR AL SHIMALE: Yes. Thank you so much. Bye bye.

AMT: That’s Zouhir Al Shimale, he is a citizen of Aleppo. He's also a freelance journalist. As you can hear, he's still in there. Yesterday, just as the ceasefire was being brokered, the cease fire that obviously you could hear isn't happening there, someone else was still inside and we reached her. Lina Shamy is an anti-regime activist in eastern Aleppo. And this is what she told me. Just a note, some of what she says is very graphic description of what she saw.

AMT: Hi Lina. Can you tell me where you are right now?

LINA SHAMY: I have moved several times since yesterday, so from house to another because my house is unable to stay in it from yesterday. And I couldn't also get my own things, my personal things. So I'm with a family in another house, far away from my house. We have a lot of displaced people. So many people, we are here gathered in a small, in a very small area. So every bomb, every hit, could massacre because there are large numbers of people.

AMT: So when you moved from where you were before to the place you are now, what did you see on the streets? Tell me what it was like to get to where you are now. What did you see, what were you hearing, who was in the streets? Paint me a picture.

LINA SHAMY: I saw a lot of people fleeing from their houses, holding their things in plastic bags and running away. Everyone was fleeing from my district and there were a horror, a state of horror between people. And there were a lot of bullets that were running above our heads because the place, our district, was near a frontline and there was shelling all over the wall. I really couldn't recognize the streets, due to the bombing, they haven’t changed. I have stayed in the house for one day and a half without going out and then when I went out, everything has changed due to that intense bombing. And on my way, I reached a medical point, I had to pass through it. And there were horrible horrible [unintelligible] and there were people, injured people. No one is helping them because there is a real real inability, the medical point, the situation of the medical points is very disastrous and unbelievable. You can't see the floor of the medical point, due to because it's covered with blood and dust. In the corridor that I was walking in there were dead people lying all along the corridor waiting for someone to recognize them. There's a lot of bodies that haven't found anyone to take them or bury them. A lot of people were buried under wreckage, some of civil defense members, they said that they were hearing sounds of people still alive under wreckage and they couldn't do anything.

AMT: And you went by all the injured people, nobody could help them, there's nobody available, right?

LINA SHAMY: The staff of the hospitals, you know that a lot of hospitals have been targeted already and bombed by regime and Russia airstrike. So we are in a city already without hospitals and after regime have took a lot of districts in the besieged Aleppo, a lot of horrible, horrible things happened. We're talking about field executions happen. There is Hayat hospital, the staff of al-Hayat, all of them, the staff of the hospital al-Hayat, all of them were executed.

AMT: How do you know this Lina?

LINA SHAMY: Because they are our friends. We used to gather in the medical quarantine before that and we used to visit them and then they visit us. And yesterday, in the al-Qasr, that district regime recently took control on, it happened, there was field executions. Among them women and children. At al-Qasr square they were executed while regime was celebrating on the other side of Aleppo, in regime held Aleppo, at the same moment there were people being executed. Also, there was a basement with 60 people in al-Fardous. Regime forces after they entered that, and the militias that support them, after they entered that basement they burnt it with the people inside it. Regime and forces and the militias that support them, when they were walking in a district, they recently took control on, if they found anything that indicates that this person or this family has participated in any activity off of the revolution, even if it was a peaceful activity like protest or if they have a Syrian revolution flag in their house, it’s a crime according to the regime. So they mercy no one, not even if they were children, a woman or elders.

AMT: So in a place you are now Lina, how big is that area? How worried are you? You've obviously run to some place that you think you can be away from them for a bit. What are you thinking?

LINA SHAMY: Yeah, I really really can't think or expect what may happen. But, and I can't feel but strong, I can't be but strong for me and for the people around me, for the mothers around me, for the children. And I know that there are people, other revolutionaries who are defending us and will try their best and will give their life just to prevent the regime from coming and may commit these horrible actions.

AMT: OK. Well, that is Lina Shamy, she's an anti-regime activist in eastern Aleppo. If you were on Facebook yesterday, you might have seen her actually. She was one of the people in eastern Aleppo who put a plea up to talk about what was happening. OK, Rupert Colville is with us. He is a spokesperson for the UN Human Rights Commissioner, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. He's in Geneva. Hello Mr. Colville.

RUPERT COLVILLE: Good morning Anna Maria.

AMT: You were listening to my last two guests. What are you thinking as you hear their voices?

RUPERT COLVILLE: Well, I think it's incredibly cruel what's happening now because, and it was really alarming just to hear how many explosions were happening. I think, you know, there was a deal yesterday and I think everyone was hopeful that for once one of these deals would stick. It was quite complex. But now it's fallen through and, you know, everyone's creating different reasons why that is. But I think you heard the results in your interview.

AMT: Now, you're trying to track what's happening in there. How much can you verify the citizen reports coming out of that pocket of Aleppo now?

RUPERT COLVILLE: Yeah, it's difficult. But you have to be very careful, we’re not even in Syria, let alone in Aleppo. We've never been allowed in, UN human rights staff have not been allowed in since this crisis began five years ago. However, we have built up a network of sources, you know, who we’ve worked with over time and obviously over time you’re able to test how reliable they are. And I think we've had particularly good sources in eastern Aleppo, a number of them. And, you know, they've given us information that's very balanced, I mean, that includes violations committed by the al-Nusra and other opposition groups themselves, as well as those by the government forces and their allies.

AMT: In my conversation with Zouhir Al Shimale, he talked about people being turned away at what he called an Iranian checkpoint, one Iranian checkpoint, what could that be?

RUPERT COLVILLE: Well I think, yeah, I mean, of course there's a whole mix of groups on both sides. So on the government side, it's not simply the Syrian army, it's also Iranian backed militias, it's Hezbollah from Lebanon, it's the Russians obviously involved, particularly with the airstrikes. So that's not clear, I mean, that was interesting detail. Obviously it’s been Russia that's been talking about the deal all of yesterday and today. But I really can't tell you what that absolutely signifies. Bottom line is there was a deal to take out the injured people, the government of Syria is obliged under international law to provide medical assistance to all sick and wounded civilians and fighters alike. And it's just shameful that that, you know, that this evacuation has been stopped. It shouldn't be contingent on anything else, they're entitled to medical assistance. It's clearly feasible to get them out, there was a deal and it's just not happening and it’s just disgusting.

AMT: In a war like this, does international law, is anybody following international law?

RUPERT COLVILLE: Seems not. I mean, very very disgraceful situation throughout the whole Syria war. And I think that's where the, you know, abject failure of the UN Security Council is perhaps most obvious. I mean, we've been calling for five years for Syria to be put before the International Criminal Court. If there's ever a situation that was designed to appear before that court it’s Syria, and that's been blocked. The only way to do it is through the Security Council and it's been blocked repeatedly in the Security Council.

AMT: And, you know, in the voices of the two people we just heard, one very, almost resigned, he's musing about being killed. Given what you've learned about what the UN is calling executions of 82 civilians yesterday. When you hear him, what do you think?

RUPERT COLVILLE: You know, terrible worry and foreboding really. I mean, it's been something we've been saying for the last few days anyway. For all those who've already got into the government held areas, you know, what's happening exactly? I mean, we know that in some cases men have been separated from women. There have been videos shown on Russian television, for example, of large groups of fearful looking men sitting on the ground. They're entitled to screen the people coming out to look for fighters and separate them, to look for people who've committed serious crimes but they have to treat them humanely and that's the concern, because humane treatment has been completely lacking in this conflict.

AMT: We are talking about, still, a pocket inside Aleppo where the rebels still are and where civilians still are. We heard numbers of 50 to 60,000 people. Is it that large? How can you tell?

RUPERT COLVILLE: I think it's really impossible to tell how many people, there are clearly many people, thousands of people. How many thousands, I think, is probably anybody's guess. We don't really know for sure exactly how many have gone out in the last few days.

AMT: The people who are coming out, where do they go? Is that clear?

RUPERT COLVILLE: They go to, well, the deal is very complicated, had it happened in that some people were going to go into the government held areas, some people were going to go to opposition held areas in Idlib, the neighbouring governorate. Of those who are in the government held areas, no we don't know and that's really the worry, because there may be people being separated out and taken away to places and nobody's really sure and that's the big fear.

AMT: Rupert Colville, thank you for your time.

RUPERT COLVILLE: You're very welcome. Thank you.

AMT: Rupert Colville, spokesperson for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. We reached him in Geneva. Well, stay with us, the CBC News is next. And then from war torn Syria to a Canadian welcome. It has been a year since Syrian refugees began arriving in Canada by the thousands to begin their new lives with sponsor groups. We are going to cross the country and check in on them and their lives, as they prepare for the next step of being here on their own. Stay with us for that. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM and online on cbc.ca/thecurrent.

Back To Top »

'It's a girl!': Snapshots of Syrian refugees in Canada one year later

Guests: The Al Abdallah family, Bshara AlKoury, Dolat Elellus and sons, Aya Hilani

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, to some he's a leader, to others a thug. But it's hard to deny that Mohamud "Tarzan" Nur cares deeply about his homeland Somalia. What the story of the former mayor of Mogadishu can teach us about recovering from war. But first, a year in the new life of Syrian refugees.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Well, the news out of Aleppo today is another reminder of why so many Syrians have left their homes and sought refuge elsewhere. In Canada, it's been a year since refugees began arriving and the welcomes have been warm. But moving out of war and into a new country is still stressful and for some there's a new wrinkle. The yearlong commitments of support from private sponsors and the federal government are due to run out. Today, we are bringing you four stories from across the country. Snapshots of settling into life in Canada and we're starting with a family we first met here on The Current last winter, when the Al Abdallahs first arrived in Toronto. Our producer Willow Smith went back to their apartment in northwest Toronto last week to catch up with them.

[Sound: dishes clanking]

AYA AL ABDALLAH: So who’s turn is it? Beatrix, OK, pick two cards.

BEATRIX: Do and do.

AYA AL ABDALLAH: OK, let me see, did you get a match?

BEATRIX: I want to see first.

AYA AL ABDALLAH: Sometimes she peeks, she goes down and then she peeks.

BEATRIX: [laughing]

AYA AL ABDALLAH: My name is Aya and I’m the boss of this game and I’m eight and a half-years-old. We were in Syria and then the war started and then we moved to Lebanon and then we moved to Canada.

BEATRIX: [laughing]

REEMAS AL ABDALLAH: My name is Reemas and I am six-years-old.

[Sound: dishes clanking]

[Arabic speaking language]

SOWSAN AL ABDALLAH: [through translator] This is special Syrian food that we cook sometimes. [laughing] My name is Sowsan, my and to Canada in 7th December, 2015.

[Arabic speaking language]

SOWSAN AL ABDALLAH: [through translator] I feel it's a little bit hard because this is my first time having a baby when my family's not around, because what used to happen before when I gave birth is that all my family take care of the other kids. But this is the situation and I have to deal with it. Thank God at least we start to feel that we’re human. Back in Lebanon, we couldn't feel that because we go outside in the country, when we walk in the streets everyone calling us bad words and we have to keep silent because if we answer back they might deport us from the country. Here in Canada, everybody is being nice to us, they respect us. We can go wherever we want, nobody will disrespect us. We feel Canada is welcoming us more than other countries.

[Sound: children speaking]

MOHAMED AL ABDALLAH: My name is Mohamed Al Abdallah. I came to Canada in last year. [through translator] Now, no, I'm not looking for a job because all I'm trying to do is improving myself of the English language. I'm trying to succeed and get to level four, after that I'll go for the HVAC technician license because this is what I used to do back home. I have good experience in that and I have good experience in mechanic. The first problem comes with the language, we can’t communicate with people. Second problem is I’m unemployed person, so I need to get job so I go on with the life. And the most difficult thing for me is thinking about my family back home being under the war. Even I’m in Canada, even we're in safe country but my mind always thinking about them.

AYA AL ABDULLAH: OK, Beatrix, your turn, let's mix them up, pick a card, any card.

REEMAS AL ABDULLAH: Don’t show her. I see s and s, she’s got to match s and s.

AYA AL ABDULLAH: Let me tell you about Lebanon. It's, there's something so mean. In Lebanon, the people are mean, like, when you go to the store to buy something, they just say I hate the Syrian people, they’re so yucky and they’re just so mean, they say those words. But we don't say anything, we just keep on walking so no one can get in trouble.

SOWSAN AL ABDULLAH: [through translator] It's a nice feeling that I feel my baby will be Canadian and I hope we will get Canadian documents soon. And all that we are looking for is seeing our kids have a good lifestyle and the most important reason we left Syria is seeing our kids safe and nothing hurt them. For sure we're going to have some difficulties because the year is over and the private sponsorship is over. But we applied for the welfare and we hope this will help us because we still didn't learn English yet. Because of the baby, I also can't go back to school right now, and the girls monthly money that we are getting, it's not enough to pay everything off. So I hope with the welfare I hope we can at least pay the rent. We still didn't settle for the name. The baby's father wants a different name, our sisters want a different name and I want a different name. But we still didn't get to make the decision yet but for sure it will be me making the final decision. [laughing] I'm not worried about the future here because whenever I think about going back to Syria, nothing comes to my head other than just going for a visit. Nothing will be living there after this war.

AYA AL ABDULLAH: This time she gotta go again.

[Sound: child laughter]

AYA AL ABDULLAH: Ready Beatrix, you’re going to go again because she peeks. When you do them, just turn around and then you will look at me. So my favorite part about Canada is going to skating because it's so much fun. I was like how do you skating? And then one of our group, his name’s Andrew and one is Claudia, they they hold me one on each hand and then they teach me how to like, to skate and now I know.

SOWSAN AL ABDULLAH: [through translator] I feel this is home. I feel this is my country.

[Sound: children chattering and laughing]

AMT: Sowsan and Mohamed Al Abdullah speaking through translators Yasser Al Waeli and Dalal Badr. Their daughters are Aya and Reemas. And an update, it is a girl, the newest member of the Al Abdullah family, the family's first Canadian born citizen, born yesterday morning. Her name is Scham. Mom and baby are doing well. We're going to Vancouver now, where our producer Liz Hoath met 27-year-old Aya Hilani. She's been living in Canada for more than six months. It's been time filled with challenges and that's made her settlement agency Mosaic a key part of her transition to Canadian life.

AYA HILANI: When we applied to come to Canada, I apply me and my mom and my sister. But there was some questions for my sister and my mom, so I came before them.

[Music: harmonious undertones]

AYA HILANI: I came here by myself. Actually, I came here by private sponsorship. I am living with my sister's house, so the first month I lose my consciousness, actually. I can't, because I just look around me and I have, like, monologue between me and myself. So what is this place, where am I? My sister tried to show me around the house, tried to show me some places, took me, for example, for downtown, take me for the river to show me the parks here. It was interesting but inside me I couldn't feel safe in the first months. Everything is strange.

[Music: soft ambient guitar]

AYA HILANI: I was totally depressed. I told my sister I want to go back home because even there is a war back home but you know your street, you know your friends, you know your neighbours, you know the road for the university. Here if I want to go outside just for walking, I don't know the streets. It was so hard. And there is no one to talk to. Maybe I know the language, I can speak in my English language but I don't find anyone speak Arabic language just to express how I feel. So I was so depressed, I remember I go to the doctor and he told me I want to give you some pills so I was afraid to take that. I tried to depend on myself to get rid of this struggle.

[Music: deeper ambient undertones]

AYA HILANI: My sister has been living in Canada since more than 25 years and she has a family here and I'm living with him in the same house. It's fine, [chuckles] it's fine, but there is no privacy because the house is suitable for four people, not for seven people because I came here with my mom and my sister. So we are living together now, until I find the job and my sister find a job so we have the money so we can move. It's a challenge, yeah it's hard. But I feel like it's better than the other people because I have so many friends travel to Europe swimming actually. Yeah, and they are living in the camps and the situation is so hard. Some of them dies in the road. So when I think about them, I said of course I'm living here, it's a heaven, it's a heaven, really, it’s a heaven.

AYA HILANI: Hi Taslim, good morning.

TASLIM: Hi.

AYA HILANI: I miss you.

TASLIM: Nice to see you.

AYA HILANI: Nice to see you again. How do you do?

AYA HILANI: I don't know anyone, I feel so lonely here actually. Yeah, but after I met the group of Mosaic, all of them became, like, your friends. So they call me all the time, they ask about my updates, they care about if I find a job or not. If they have opportunity they call me. So in the beginning was hard. Sorry, I mentioned that so much but really it was so hard in the beginning but now it became better than before.

TASLIM: Are you enjoying the snow? [laughing]

AYA HILANI: Yeah, I love the snow. [laughing] Yeah, it reminds me when we have snow in Syria, we just go outside, half off from the school. Everything is off, so we just go outside playing and enjoying the snow.

TASLIM: Don't worry, if it snows enough we'll get a day off too. [laughs]

AYA HILANI: [laughing] There is no off here.

TASLIM: So how are you enjoying your new job?

AYA HILANI: Yeah, it's nice, but this is not my train job because this is like in retail job, just sales and I'm manager in [unintelligible] counter. But there is no opportunity to do makeup because I was makeup artist and I was working in beauty salon with a bridal makeup, yeah.

TASLIM: Not as creative.

AYA HILANI: No. [laughing] I feel great now, I have a job. I have so many friends now, I built up my relations so it's interesting now. Yeah, of course. Now, I can start thinking about my future and what should I do here because I have a plan. But before that, even if you have dreams you can’t think about them, you think where I am, where am I actually, how can I survive? I still remember the first month, I just imagine if I just fell down in the street. So who can come and pick me up or help me because I don't know anyone. So it was so hard.

TASLIM: So you were going to come and volunteer for us and we're really excited about that. But we need to kind of figure out your schedule and I'll just kind of let you know what you going to be working with.

AYA HILANI: Yeah, when I think about my future here, I just smile because I'm 100 per cent sure it will be great. And I have dreams actually, so many dreams. I have short goals and long goals. My short goals is just to carry on my study at university, the other goal is to find the proper job for, I find myself in the proper place, helping people have a house, buy a car. [laughing] Yes.

TASLIM: So you applied to work as a teaching assistant?

AYA HILANI: Mmhmm.

TASLIM: But I also remember you said that you're a teacher.

AYA HILANI: Yeah, I was English teacher in my hometown.

[Music: somber ambient tones]

AYA HILANI: Canada for me, give me so many things. It just helps me, keep me safe, give me the life because, you know, when you have a war, your life is just stopped. You can’t do anything, just count your days and expect you'll die any time. So I'm always thinking that if someone offers you just a cup of coffee, you think how you will say thank you for him. And what about Canada? And she offer me the life. So I don't know actually, how can I say thank you for them but I will do my best, I swear. [laughing] Yeah.

TASLIM: Well, thanks for coming in Aya. It was really great to see you.

AYA HILANI: So nice to see you, especially in the morning. You make my day.

TASLIM: Aw, you too.

AYA HILANI: Thank you so much.

TASLIM: OK.

AYA HILANI: And enjoy your weekend.

TASLIM: You too, take care. Have a great day.

AYA HILANI: Thank you, bye bye.

AMT: Aya Hilani, telling her story and you also heard the voice of Taslim Damji, the manager at the Vancouver settlement agency Mosaic. Loneliness and a lack of fellow Arab speakers are not the biggest challenge for our next family. Dolat Elellus lives in a three bedroom apartment in a building on Donald Street in Ottawa with her husband, their four young sons and her mother-in-law. There are nearly 300 Syrian newcomers in that area in two high rise buildings. Dolat and her family are from Homs, Syria and they escaped to Turkey three years ago. They've been in Ottawa since April of last year and are taking English classes at a local school. Ottawa reporter Hallie Cotnam met the family in their home, where she found the boys playing video games.

[Sound: knock on door and door opening]

HALLIE COTNAM: Hello.

DOLAT ELELLUS: Hello, hi, nice to meet you.

HALLIE COTNAM: Pleased to meet you.

DOLAT ELELLUS: You’re welcome.

[Sound: video game controllers being mashed]

CHILD 1: No, no, no, slow, slow, slow.

CHILD 2: Do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

HALLIE COTNAM: There is 90 families, 90 Syrian families.

DOLAT ELELLUS: Yes, there is 90 Syrian families. It's good for us but for the language not good. We need to sure our life with the Canadian people to learn more English, to improve our language. If I stay in this building, yes, I speak just Arabic with the other families from Syria. It's important for our life in the future, for my children, learning the language is very important. To sure our life with others.

DOLAT ELELLUS: ABC

CHILD 1: DEFG

DOLAT ELELLUS: E-F-G.

CHILD 1: H-I-J.

DOLAT ELELLUS: L-M-N-O.

CHILD 1: L-M-N-O.

DOLAT ELELLUS: The people here is very friendly and lovely, I love them very much, all the people of Canadian. And I thank them for everything. But there is two stories happened with me when I went to the hospital with my son Yahya. In the bus, I sit beside the old lady, she was afraid of me. I don’t know why. When the bus move right or left and I become near, close of them, she afraid of me and--

HALLIE COTNAM: She pulled away.

DOLAT ELELLUS: Yes, she pulled away. I don't know why. When I return to my home, I feel sad. What I doing for her to afraid of me? I don't know why. But all most of them very friendly and lovely.

CHILD 1: I read [unintelligible]. Stop on you giving, girl and--

DOLAT ELELLUS: Yes, we are very happy here. Canada is very beautiful and it's very good for learning the children. Before we came to Canada, we heard about Ottawa especially, it’s very safe city in all the world.

HALLIE COTNAM: Let’s count.

AHMED ELFECIR: OK, in French.

CHILD 2: One, four, five, nine, eight, dee, dee.

HALLIE COTNAM: [laughs] Good stuff, good stuff. Yes.

AHMED ELFECIR: [laughs]

[Sound: high five]

AMT: The family of Dolat Elellus in Ottawa. Our final stop’s in Calgary, the new home of 32-year-old Bshara AlKoury. He fled Damascus and ended up in Lebanon for a year, before being accepted by Canada as a single refugee. A church in Calgary sponsored him. He lives in a tidy one bedroom apartment with sparse furnishings. The rent of 900 dollars a month has been paid by the church for the last year. But that changes in January, when the sponsorship ends. He spent the past year looking for work without any luck and he is focused on learning English over the past few months. Our Calgary producer Michael O'Halloran paid him a visit.

[Music: guitar plucking]

BSHARA ALKOURY: Yeah, this my set room, living room. [laughs] Yeah, I have extra room for bedroom. [laughs] At my kitchen. If you visit me yesterday, you will watch different cook. And this dessert I made this yesterday, because we have small party in my school and this gift from my teacher. Write my name here, [laughs] is nice. After this, come Syrian support refugee and helped me too to find a church, St. Patrick church because this church helped me to some money to started my life here in Canada, because when come as refugee, you come with zero money. [laughs] I cannot speak any English when I come to here but I started study in Lebanon, but only on the internet but this not teach you anything important. Only thank you, a little word about when you are come with [unintelligible]. My teacher Rene, I should listen for world report [laughs] but you should ask your friend in CBC more more story please. [laughs] It is not easy for him, you cannot understand everything. Before the civil war in Syria, when I was in my childhood, always watch in TV, wow, Canada, wow, [laughs] I have dream to go to Canada. But this dream become really with bad time, I’m so sorry. I wish if I come to here as immigration, not as a refugee. Canada is a dream land but is now is not a dream land but is not bad, is good land, is perfect land but not a dream land. Everyone is a human. If you and I can make Turkish coffee.

[Sound: water tap flowing]

BSHARA ALKOURY: Turkish coffee different about Canadian coffee is same thing, but this more soft. And when you drink this, you drink the water and the coffee together.

[Sound: coffee grinding]

BSHARA ALKOURY: My brother, older brother, is High River because he can't find job here in Calgary with this economy. This bad time for all Calgarian and everyone. He find a job in Cargill, Cargill food. This good and bad. Good because he find job but bad because don’t study any word English to now, not speak any word English. This very very bad. I tell my brother you should start, the English is very important for everything but you should balance. If you have family, you can never ever lose your job. He has two daughter and now his wife is pregnamancy, pregnant, yeah. I’m so sorry. [laughs] I’m started no English.

[Sound: coffee machine sounds]

BSHARA ALKOURY: In my country we don’t use electric to cook, we use bottle gas, name this, yeah, bottle gas. After this month, should start to pay everything myself. I will next Monday course to become electrician. My dream to be have diploma, to have a great job. I love the technology, electronic, electrical, all this technology field but the money, money, money, money. [laughs] Money, money. I always dream in this world. [laughs] Yeah, it’s difficult for newcomer because everything in Canada different about Middle East. The rules, every every everything. For myself, now I’m ready, I have all the information but you are as kids here. My age about 32 but I’m now my age is one year only. [laughs] Is really. I don’t need to survive my life a lot of money, everyone tell me electrician, you have big chance to still in job, you can’t tell anyone I don’t have job. Because now, I send my resume for yeah, maybe all Calgarians know Bshara. [laughs] Because I send my resume for all the company around Calgary but it’s not easy to find job. Canadian now don’t have job, wow, how is a person don’t have perfect English. Yeah, it’s very difficult.

[Sound: coffee machine]

[Music: guitar plucking]

AMT: Bshara AlKoury in Calgary. You can visit our website to see photos of all the Syrian refugees we have profiled today cbc.ca/thecurrent. And stay with us, coming up in our next half hour, once he was the mayor of Mogadishu. Before that a teenage basketball star, before that a young nomad in Somalia. Now, Mohamud Nur’s ambitions are set on his homeland's presidency. He's my guest in about 90 seconds. And in his story, maybe a cautionary tale of Syria. As we look at what happened to Somalia after years of chaos and war — and the parallels we can make. I'll be joined by Mohamud Nur and the man who wrote about him, Andrew Harding. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM and online on cbc.ca/thecurrent.

[Music: Extro]

Back To Top »

Why Mogadishu's former mayor wants to be Somalia's president

Guests: Mohamud Ahmed Nur, Yusuf Ahmed Nur, Andrew Harding

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti this is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

I born in Mogadishu and I grow up in Mogadishu. Mogadishu once was one of the most beautiful cities in Africa, the most peaceful city in Africa. I want to see Mogadishu to come back as Mogadishu in 1976, 1977, or better. I want to see Mogadishu's population live in a decent life. I want to see Mogadishu to be a Mogadishu not the situation it is right now.

[Music: African horn]

AMT: That is Mohamud "Tarzan" Nur speaking in a documentary that aired here on The Current in 2011, when he was one year into his term as the mayor of Mogadishu. It was a time of hope and rebuilding for a city and a country that had been the centre of a conflict for far too long. Mohamud Nur, Mohamud "Tarzan" Nur was ousted from the mayor's office in 2014. He hasn't given up on setting his country on the right path. He's now running for president. His own history reflects a complicated history of his country. He was born into a poor nomadic family. He became a teenage basketball star living in an orphanage, then a member of the diaspora. Now a returnee. We have reached Mohamud "Tarzan" Nur in Mogadishu. Also joining us is Andrew Harding, he's a BBC foreign correspondent and the author of a new book about Mohamud Nur entitled The Mayor of Mogadishu: A Story of Chaos and Redemption in the Ruins of Somalia. Andrew Harding is here in Toronto. And Yusuf Ahmed Nur is Mohamud Nur’s brother. He's with us from St. Paul, Minnesota. Hello to all of you.

MOHAMUD NUR: Hi.

YUSUF AHMED NUR: Hi.

ANDREW HARDING: Hello.

AMT: Mohamud Nur, let's start at the very beginning of your story. Where were you born?

MOHAMUD NUR: [laughs] See, I came to Mogadishu when I was five-years-old. And I didn’t know any other city except Mogadishu. So sometimes that's why I say I born in Mogadishu and sometimes political correctness, I will say I born in Mogadishu because when I became a mayor, there was a huge challenge from clan lines and tribes. So they wanted to own the city themselves, so I was not accepting that they belong to the city by themselves. So I was telling them that I born here and I belong to the city. So, but I don't know where I born, Yusuf can tell us where we born.

AMT: Yusuf Nur, what do you think of that?

YUSUF AHMED NUR: Well, you know, we were brought to Mogadishu when we were little and so we knew no other place. In that sense, it’s our town, it’s our city. We don't know any other city other than Mogadishu.

AMT: Andrew Harding, in your book you actually talk about the different stories of where Tarzan Nur says he was born. It's a seemingly simple question but there's a complexity to it. What does that tell you about pinning down facts in Somalia?

ANDREW HARDING: Well it's difficult, it's very difficult because not least journalists like me struggle to get access to the country, it's very expensive, it's very dangerous to hire all the guards that you need as a foreigner. Perhaps less these days but, you know, over the 15 years I've been going there, that's a lot of bodyguards. So it's hard to pin down facts in Somalia and that's because these institutions, above all, have been so eroded that when mud is flung, as mud is flung in Mogadishu more than anywhere else I know, it has a habit of sticking because there's very little way to disprove things. And so that's something that Tarzan has fought against as mayor and since people accuse him of all sorts of things. But how do you prove what's true and what's not?

AMT: Because the normal way that we would think of in terms of record keeping in institutions, keeping records, all of that was has been upended for years.

ANDREW HARDING: Exactly. I mean, the whole history of Mogadishu has been destroyed since 91, 92 of Black Hawk Down on the descent into chaos of this country. People look back to the good old days with nostalgia but there's very little evidence of those good old days and that's what I wanted to bring back to life through the story of people like Tarzan and Yusuf and those extraordinary days when Mogadishu was a city on the rise.

AMT: Well, Mohamud Tarzan Nur, you were on The Current in that clip we just heard, talking about wanting to bring back the Mogadishu of the 1970s. Tell us what the city was like at that time.

MOHAMUD NUR: Well, imagine a city in the coastline of Indian Ocean and the Italian architecture, how beautiful that city is. When we grow up, we grow up as a city which was peaceful. No any, zero criminality. Zero tension. We used to go to the ocean and swim and then walk around. Sometimes when we grow up and become a teenage we went to the nightclubs. Then leave the night clubs about 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning and walk two to three kilometres to where we stay, peacefully. So that's why I was looking to bring back Mogadishu in that hey time of Somalia and the time of the capital city of Somalia. That was my dream.

AMT: Andrew Harding, how did you come to see Somalia different through hearing the stories of the country's past?

ANDREW HARDING: Well, I knew something of the history but it was by hearing Tarzan and Yusuf’s childhood stories that I really realized that this is the part of Somalia that people don't know and the part that I really wanted to bring to life because there are so many countries that seem like basket cases. Why be interested in Somalia instead of Syria? And so to to bring back those memories, that time for instance of Tarzan and his girlfriend Shamis walking down the beach front arguing over which cinema they were going to go and see, which Fellini film or a Hindi film or the latest American Western. Shamis would be wearing a mini skirt, great big hoop earrings and a big African hairstyle. And I thought that by telling that love story and by talking about the Somalia that has been lost, I could bring a new audience to understand that Somalia is not just a land of famine and pirates and Black Hawk Down and terrorism.

AMT: Mohamud Nur, where did that nickname come from, who started calling you Tarzan?

MOHAMUD NUR: I was a child in orphanage and every morning, we were living in a dormitory which composed of more than 50 children and we had bunk beds. Instructor in the morning, he comes early in the morning and wakes us up and then he queue us and try to exercise us. So I just sneak out and come back because I want to sleep more. So I come back to my bed and I was at the top and my window there was a tree called [unintelligible] and I come back and slept my bed. But the floor was wood, so when he came in, I heard his shoes, then immediately I jumped from the window to the tree and I hold the branch. So the instructor thought that I fall down because I was very young and then he look around, he couldn’t find and he saw I was hanging branch of the tree and then he said this is Tarzan, this is Tarzan. From that on, I completely forget my name because every child, every person was calling me Tarzan. And only most recently, when I entered politics, they called me Mohamud Nur. But no one knows my name except Tarzan and I didn't even if someone calls me, when I walk in the street, calls me Mohamud, I would not give any attention because I don’t know whether they call me or they calling another person.

AMT: Yusuf Nur, how did you view your brother at that time when he was living at the orphanage?

YUSUF AHMED NUR: I was living with my aunt at the time and I would go see him at the orphanage whenever I had trouble with my aunt. I used to flee and go to him and tell him all about my troubles. He was also protective. He was the fighter and he would protect me from older kids who were mean to me. So those were beautiful days. Yeah.

AMT: How did it end up that you were split apart, that he was at the orphanage, you were at your aunt's?

YUSUF AHMED NUR: My aunt, who brought us to Mogadishu, thought that the orphanage was brutal and she thought that I was too little to be sent to the orphanage. She thought that she could keep me for a year or two and then send me to the orphanage. But I don't know why or how, but she eventually decided I’d just stay with her until I finished high school.

AMT: Andrew Harding, how did Mohamud’s fellow orphanage boys describe him at the time?

ANDREW HARDING: As a bit of a ruffian, a tough guy, somebody who would never back down from a fight. What I found interesting in exploring Tarzan's childhood is the politician I met in 2010, in the rubble of this besieged city, was this larger than life, almost caricature, this tough guy, who had no fear. Who spoke exactly what he saw. And he was very different, very unusual for a Somali politician. And I wanted to understand where all that came from and I found it in the orphanage in this story of this tough little kid from this poor family out in the nomadic countryside, who'd come here, reinvented himself, seized on this new name Tarzan and fought anybody who wanted to call him something different. A guy who became something of a minor celebrity on the basketball court, again very tough. And to his friends and his supporters, they spoke of him as this lion, this figure who would never back down. Who was honest and decent.

AMT: And even to run for mayor then, for this hardscrabble kid who was in an orphanage, who didn't come from money, was a big deal.

ANDREW HARDING: It was. But by then, abroad, living in London he'd become an activist and very involved in diaspora politics. This was the diaspora trying to put the country they’d left back together again from abroad. Trying to find a way to end the clan conflicts and build a government in exile that could then be transplanted back into Mogadishu. And Tarzan was part of that process because he was a very loud, very important figure.

AMT: Before we get to the politics of Mogadishu, Tarzan Nur, tell me how you became a basketball star.

MOHAMUD NUR: The facilities, sports facilities was very limited and the only thing that we can play was futbol and I was not good at futbol. The police headquarter was very near to us and the police, they had a basketball court. So there was a wall between us, so I used to jump from the wall and try to play there. And the police officers that are playing basketball tried to train us and through that we make an orphanage team. And that orphanage team become very good in basketball and we become 1971 to ‘72 become the champion of Somalia. And that's why Kareem Abdul Jabbar, an NBA at that time and Oscar Robertson and their coach Larry Costello came in and visit Somalia. And so we played with them. That was the only thing that we have at that time was to play, nothing else. There is no hobby, there's no other thing to do, only to play basketball, become the best sport that I would like to play.

AMT: Mohamud Nur, when you became mayor of Mogadishu in 2010, what was the state of the city at the time?

MOHAMUD NUR: At that time really you cannot call a city, it was a ghost city. The population was very small. Everywhere you see this destruction and death. It was dark, there was no lights at all any streets. The garbage that has accumulated for the last 20 years and odd was there, so no cars was running in the streets of Mogadishu. It was really a ghost city. And when you see it and if you remember and grow up when Mogadishu was one of the best cities in Africa, then you feel sad and it was very difficult for me to take over the job and really I declined it three times. Even my brother Yusuf and other two brothers, we had a meeting, a family meeting in Hargeisa to discuss what should I do. And we agreed that I should not take the job because of the danger that it carries with it. You can be a target and you don't know who can trust and who you cannot trust. There’s no law and order, there’s no police force that you can use or support you. There’s no military that can support you, there is not even a government that can support you. Even the president, if he wants to support you, he cannot support you. So it was a very dangerous situation. So my brothers and my family and my wife all agreed that we should not take. Myself, I say I should not take it but later on, I don't know what changed my mind, I decided to take over and it was very difficult for me. But it was a huge challenge.

AMT: And Yusuf Nur, what were your biggest concerns when he decided to take on this role?

YUSUF AHMED NUR: All of us, the remaining, the surviving brothers, we all agreed that the biggest challenge was that there was no way he could, it would be extremely difficult for him to stay clean. The whole place is corrupt through and through. The danger itself, we knew there was danger there, our younger brother lives there and so he knew the danger and that didn't really bother us. But what bothered us was that there is no way you can clean up a corrupt city like that with one person. One person, the mayor would not be able to do much. And so that was our major concern.

AMT: Andrew Harding, you heard specific allegations of corruption and other misdeeds directed at Tarzan Nur. What did you hear? Take us through this swirling talk around this.

ANDREW HARDING: Well, picture the scene, there is Tarzan who is only one figure amongst many, in theory, with official government role in Mogadishu. But in fact, he's the only guy with a proper job. Everyone else is essentially pretending to be prime minister of a country that is not under government control, it's mostly controlled by al-Shabaab. People with ministries that are really expressions of wishfulness and optimism and intention, there was Tarzan with a job and with a few city blocks, a few square kilometres to actually make a difference. And so wielding executive power with the kind of vigour that is his natural way, he made a lot of enemies. You've got to understand, these ruins of Mogadishu, they may have been just ruins, it may have been this ghost town but it was a fiercely contested one. Every single city block was contested by different clans, who at different times had owned or seized or lived in these areas, so simply to decide whose property is whose is to invite vitriol and death threats. And Tarzan made decisions. He wielded executive power constantly. I remember sitting in his office with this huge crowd of people outside wanting decisions taken because before that nobody had. It was all settled at the barrel of a gun. So Tarzan inevitably attracted a lot of enemies, a lot of criticism for the decisions he took and no doubt some of those decisions were wrong and some were right. As for the allegations of corruption, I heard that he'd been pushing contracts towards family members, his cousin and somebody else in the administration were accused of murder but coming to find the proof was impossible, I couldn't prove any of them.

AMT: In fact, you quote extensively on a Somali-Canadian who had his own allegations, who was dealing with finances for the government. Tell us that conversation, tell us what you looked for, what you heard?

ANDREW HARDING: This is a guy called Fartaag, who worked in the prime minister's office and described some extraordinary scenes about how suitcases full of cash would be brought back from, for instance, the Gulf states and shared out at the cabinet table between different ministries and essentially different representatives of different clans because it's a clan government, you know, jobs divided up on clan basis. And I mean, the way to look at it naturally, would be to say well, this is a mafia state. But there's another way of saying well, it is a clan system, a clan government and therefore when money is being divided transparently around a table, in a country with no reliable institutions, maybe that is as near as you get to decent government. So I found it fascinating to dig into what is corruption? And how does a country which doesn't have those institutions that we all take for granted, how does it start to build itself back up? And it's very murky and very difficult.

AMT: And Tarzan Nur, how do you respond to the allegations that you were involved in corruption.

MOHAMUD NUR: Well, I at that time, I did not waste a single minute to defend myself about allegations of corruption because the whole environment has been corrupted. So it would be very difficult to comprehend that someone that work inside that is clean. But I can tell you there is no single evidence that I was corrupted. I didn't know, I'm very clean, clean not because of the system. It's the very easy in the system that you can misappropriate the money of the public and the fund of the public because there's no check and balance. But because the way I am and the way I grow up and my morality will not accept that, that's why I'm the only person in Somalia up to now, that when I was leaving the office, when I came to the office there’s no money in the account of the municipality of Mogadishu. And when I was leaving, I left 400,000 dollars in the account, in dollar, and two billion dollars in the account. That I would never have been in Somalia and I am the only official that transferred that money. If I were corrupted, why I didn’t take it, that money? Through the help of United States aid, I introduced an accounting system that will tell any penny that came in and any penny that goes out. The day I left, completely they destroyed that system, the system of accounting that we installed in the municipality, they destroyed it. Why they destroyed? Because they don't want accountability. Because I wanted to be transparent. I want to teach them how to run an administration in a clean way.

AMT: and in the midst of all of what you were trying to do for Mogadishu, there were threats made against you. What happened? Tell us about the kinds of threats you faced?

MOHAMUD NUR: Well, the threats at that time, the threats was every direction, it was coming from every direction. So any, if you’re doing good thing, the people that don't like good thing will oppose you. So I have a lot of enemies. Those who wanted the status quo of Mogadishu, those who wanted to misappropriate the property of the government, all that become my enemies. Those powerful people that I tried to limit their power and their influence were against me. The police, the national security, the military ,the warlord, the former warlords all are against me. So I was trying to swim opposite the waves and it would be very difficult for me to swim opposite the waves. So Shabaab was another factor. The danger was not from Shabaab, but the danger was inside the administration, I remember that I tried to organize Mogadishu cultural festival that never had for the last 22 years, in order to change the mindset of the people, that we can enjoy, and music and can sing and come together and enjoy. Then what happened? A former mayor organized a group of gangs and they opened fire to where the festival was taking place and they kill almost four innocent people. They don’t know their names, they don't know who they are. But they kill it simply to say that Mogadishu is not safe. I want to say Mogadishu is safe. I want to say the community can come together in joy but they want to say Mogadishu is not safe. They want to say community cannot come together. That's why I saw all that enemies were there around me. So it was it was a challenge.

AMT: So let me ask you. After all of that, you want to stay in Somalia rather than join your family abroad and you want to run for president. Why?

MOHAMUD NUR: Because see, I love this country and I love my people. I believe that I can change the country. I believe that I can change the mindset of Somali people. I believe that I can bring back the security and stability of this country. And since I believe that, then I have to contest because if you will not contest that means you give up. I don't want to give up. I want to see and tell Somali people what I can do it. And if they want so they can elect me but if they don't want, it's fine with me, I will not feel bad or sad if they will not elect me. I believe that they will tell my story when I die. And I believe that if I become a president I can change this country in a very short time.

AMT: Yusuf Nur, as you listen to your brother, and you're in St. Paul, and you listen to what your brother’s saying. What are you thinking? Are you worried about him? What advice do you have for him?

YUSUF AHMED NUR: I'm not worried about him. We're not fatalistic but we know you’re going to die one of these days, so I'm not worried about the danger that he faces. And I know for sure, I think I know him more than almost anybody. He made a huge difference in Mogadishu the four years that he was the mayor. And I think you could make a huge difference in Somalia if he becomes president.

AMT: Mohamud Nur, what do you want us to understand about Somalia today?

MOHAMUD NUR: The reason that our country cannot raise from where it fall 24 years ago is because of a lack of leadership. We didn’t get a right leadership.

AMT: Andrew Harding, you mentioned Syria when we first started talking today about Somalia. What lessons do you see for the rest of the world and the complexities and the problems, the troubles of Somalia over so many years?

ANDREW HARDING: Well in a sense, Somalia is a glimpse into the future because it's been through everything, the worst that can happen to a country and it's happened over 25 years. So when you look at Syria today, the first thing is don't give up on the country because the world gave up on Somalia in the early nineties and once a country collapses, it takes a generation or maybe two or three generations to put it back together again. There are no easy simple lessons of course. They're different countries, entirely different. But what I do think struck me researching and writing this book was the role of the diaspora and the extent to which all these Somalis abroad like Yusuf, like Tarzan, going back have there the potential to help their country. They've been abroad, they've supported their relatives back home with these remittances, these millions of dollars they poured back in. And they've been educated and they're now going back and helping in the process of rebuilding and that's an incredibly important role. But of course, it brings with it new challenges because the people who stayed behind grew up in an increasingly conservative society, they saw violence every day and it's warped in a way, society. And so there is a tension now, a real conflict. We're seeing it in these presidential elections, between those who left and came back and those who stuck it out or for one reason or another stuck it out.

AMT: It's fascinating. It's great to hear all of your voices on this. So much more to ask but lots for us to think about. Thank you all of you for taking the time today.

ANDREW HARDING: Thank you.

YUSUF AHMED NUR: Thank you.

MOHAMUD NUR: Bye bye, bye bye.

AMT: Mohamud “Tarzan” Nur, former mayor of Mogadishu, now running for president of Somalia. He joined us from Mogadishu. Andrew Harding is a BBC foreign correspondent and the author of the new book The Mayor of Mogadishu. He's in our Toronto studio. Yusuf Ahmed Nur is Mohamud Nur’s brother. He's in St. Paul, Minnesota. To hear our 2011 documentary The Mayor of Mogadishu, go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. That's our program for today. Finally, after speaking with the man who aspires to be president of Somalia, we're going to leave you with some music from the great Somali-Canadian artist K’naan from his 2009 album Troubadour called Somalia. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, thanks for listening to The Current.

[Music: K’naan]

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

December 14, 2016 full episode transcript

More Stories Like This