Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2016

The AIH Transcript for December 12, 2016

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight.

CO: The price of emissions. Environment Minister Katherine McKenna says she won't let the doubts of a premier here or President-elect there keep her government from putting its climate change agreement into action.

JD: The toughest customers with increasing frequency a B.C. funeral director is arranging services for families whose loved ones have died of fentanyl overdoses. And he's doing what he can to reduce his clientele.

CO: From Russia with one-sided love. After months of rumors the CIA confirms that Russia did indeed interfere in the U.S. election. And that its hackers only have eyes for Donald Trump.

JD: Even where there's death, there was hope. Remembering Sadiq Jalal al-Azm, one of Syria's most famous thinkers, who believed in a brighter future for his country despite the destruction.

CO: Conspicuous by its absences, in a 90 year old Austrian film all Jews are expelled from the city of Vienna. And our guest says it didn't just predict the rise of Nazism in the thirties. It has a message for audiences in 2016.

JD: And they were good for goodness sake. But while this year's Santa Claus conventions were relatively uneventful, a trip to our archives reveals just how ugly SantaCon can get in New York City. As It Happens the Monday edition of radio that gives you Claus for concern.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Catherine McKenna, Russia & CIA, restored film

Catherine McKenna

Guest: Catherine McKenna

JEEF DOUGLAS: Catherine McKenna says that Friday's deal between the first ministers strikes the right balance for all Canadians. But to the federal Environment Minister has some people to convince. Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister is tying his support to health care payments. And then there's Saskatchewan where Premier Brad Wall wants to see evidence that Canadians can afford the cost of putting a price on carbon. We reached Environment Minister Catherine McKenna in Ottawa.

CAROL OFF: Minister McKenna, I'll put the question to you that Premier Brad Wall has posed: How much is this deal going to cost each Canadian?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, I think the better question is how much is the cost of inaction on climate change going to cost us? And in fact, we have a number $43 billion by 2050 and it's also the economic opportunity. So we're focused on how do we tackle climate change? Which we know we need to do we need to do our part, but also how do we grow the economy and create good jobs? And this is a huge economic opportunity. We're making historic investments in public transit in green infrastructure. I just did a trade mission to China where I brought clean technology companies that already have solutions ranging from carbon capture and storage made in Saskatchewan solution to Ballard Power that produces fuel cell buses.

CO: To get back to the question, what is it going to cost? If you're looking toward putting $50 per ton on greenhouse gas emissions what will that cost Canadians when they when they fuel up when they buy groceries. Do you have a price you can put on that?

CM: When you talk about the component of our plan it's much broader than pricing pollution. But if you talk about the component that's pricing pollution it's really up to the provinces to determine how they want to approach pricing pollution. So in British Columbia what they've decided is all the revenues they raise. Go back to British Columbians. So that is up to the provinces the federal government is not we're not taking the revenues we're saying we know we need to price pollution it's an essential element of a climate plan. But provinces should determine what makes sense for them. How do you deal with competitiveness but also what whether they want to give that money back as a tax cut or whether they want to make investments in clean technology and electric vehicles in other areas? So it's this is I think the beauty of the climate plan that we've arrived at it is pragmatic it is flexible.

CO: It’s pragmatic, it’s flexible but it's not painless. I want to get into the pain here because do you think it Canadians have the impression that you're going to be able to achieve your goals without them having to having to face what the consequences are? To fit to know the challenge of cutting greenhouse gas emissions to the degree that you want to?

CM: Well, once again I mean I think it looks it depends on how you look at this. We see this as an opportunity an opportunity to have more energy efficient homes that will save people money an opportunity to have better public transit so people are able to get out of their cars and take public transit. We know the clean tech sector employs more than 50,000 people in Canada and it's growing. And so we need to be positioning ourselves. We need to be smart about it. I absolutely agree that we need to be mindful about how these policies work. But at the end of the day what I was so proud of was that on the stage with the Prime Minister was every single Premier including Brad Wall. Premier Wall also agreed we need to take action on climate change. He may have a different view on pricing pollution, but he agrees that we need to reduce emissions for other sectors. He signed on to an agreement that the early phase out of coal. He agrees that we need to invest in innovation. He agrees that we need to make sure that we're adapting to the impacts of climate change just like everyone else in that stage did.

CO: OK everyone on the stage, everyone in the room you say agreed to that. There was an elephant in the room somebody who was very much in the room but didn't speak and his name was Donald Trump and he is the President-elect the United States, our biggest trade partner and he doesn't believe that climate change is even happening. We are just going to play a little clip of Mr. Trump.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Look, I'm somebody that gets it and nobody really knows. It's not something that's so hard and fast. I do know this. Other countries are eating at lunch. Now Paris I'm studying, I do say this I don't want that agreement to put us at a competitive disadvantage with other countries. And as you know, there are different times and different time limits on that agreement. I don't want to give China or other countries signing agreements an advantage over us.

CO: That's Donald Trump from yesterday and he's talking about competitive disadvantage. He said this quite a bit because what he is saying is that he's not going to sign on to any kind of climate change agreement that's going to hurt his economy. How are we going to be competitive with the United States how are we going to be part of this North American market if we have such different policies?

CM: So I absolutely agree with what he said there and competitiveness. We wouldn't sign onto an agreement that was going to hurt our economy either. We're defending Canada's interests. We see this as a huge opportunity. We want to create jobs just like the new U.S. administration does. We want to grow our economy. So first of all, today is a historic day because it's one year since the signing since the negotiation of the Paris agreement I'm very proud that we have a climate plan a year later. But today Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates and others they just started a one billion dollar fund clean tech fund. Why? Because it's the right thing to do, but also because it's good for business. And we're seeing states that are very serious about climate change action. They're looking for clean power from Canada another economic opportunity we're aligned with Ontario and Quebec have a cap and trade system with California. Municipalities are acting and businesses saw the Paris Agreement as a signal to the market.

CO: Well we just heard Mr. Trump saying that he doesn't think that he is not sure if he's going to stay with the Paris agreement. What does that do to Canada?

CO: Well, I think I'm certainly going to make the case the new administration that this is an opportunity to create good jobs and to grow the economy. And you don't want to be left behind in this case.

CO: And you think he's going to listen to that?

CM: Well, all I can do is you know I can make the economic case because the numbers are there.

CO: But Canadian companies are going to be paying for carbon U.S. companies won't Canadians pay for carbon Americans won't. How do we compete with that?

CM: So California has a cap and trade system. California is the sixth largest economy in the world. China is bringing in a national price on pollution a national system next year. Everyone is moving in this direction. We are going to stand up for Canada's interests and we're going to develop a climate plan that is made by Canadians for Canadians that are going to grow our economy and is going to position ourselves well.

CO: Minister McKenna, thank you very much.

CM: Thank you very much Carol and have a happy holidays.

CAROL OFF: Thank you, you too.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Bye bye.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Katherine McKenna is Canada's Environment Minister. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music: Cultural]

Russia & CIA

Guest: Mark Lowenthal

JEFF DOUGLAS: It sounds like a story straight out of the Cold War. But the CIA is saying that Russia interfered in the most recent U.S. election. Last week, the CIA briefed lawmakers on their conclusion that Russia used hackers to help swing the election in Donald Trump's favor. President-elect Trump for his part says that the assertions are ridiculous and that the CIA has been wrong before. Mark Lowenthal is a former senior CIA analyst. We reached him in Arlington, Virginia.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Lowenthal, as a former CIA analyst. What was your reaction when you heard that the CIA was stating that not only did the Kremlin interfere in this election that it did so to help Donald Trump?

MARK LOWENTHAL: First of all, in terms of what we already knew that the Russians had hacked because they had hacked the Democratic National Committee and shared it with WikiLeaks. So the fact that they were cyber active during the campaign really wasn't news and it's not clear to me that there has been a definitive statement from U.S. intelligence that the Russians interfered or that somebody wrote the way I would have written the paper. Here are the possible reasons why we saw this Russian activity one of which is to influence the outcome and that a lot of whoever leaked this story then sort of focused on that last line. So I mean I think we may be misreading the analysis.

CO: And the FBI disputes the outcome or says you can't conclude that. So how likely is it that the Kremlin actually was trying to put its thumb on the scale for Mr. Trump?

ML: I don't think that was the most likely of the possible reasons why they were doing it. I would say analytically that is not the most likely reason. I don't think they felt that they could. I would be surprised if they believed they could undertake an activity that would change the election. I don't think I don't think they would be that unrealistic in which it is unrealistic. On the other hand, the fact that they were playing around in cyber about our election makes perfect sense to me I think that's absolutely certain.

CO: And what will be other motivations?

ML: Well, I think there are probably two main ones that. The first one is simply to tell us that they're there. To remind us hey we're here we're a power stop ignoring us, we can make your lives unpleasant. That's Putin, he wants respect. He wants attention. He misses not being the Soviet Union. And the second one, which is also I think within the realm of reason, is simply to create doubts about the electoral process. To say you know you keep saying that your democracy is fine and elections are corrupt so your elections aren't so good either. And look at all the turmoil I created. And so I think those two motives are fairly easy to understand and comprehensible the idea that you could possibly force an outcome I may be absolutely wrong it strikes me as a bit too far.

CO: Well, President-elect Trump is dismissing even the possibility that there was that the Kremlin was doing it at all — that it was hacking at all — and said that they've been wrong before they thought that that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. So you know how can you trust these folks? So what do you say to him?

ML: As somebody who was involved in that estimate. Yes we got it wrong. You know it's time to stop harping on that estimate. Number one, number two, we never claimed to be perfect. We're very good. We write really good analysis and we're very good most of the time. And sometimes we get it wrong, so the standard is if you're wrong once you have no credibility then I don't think you understand how intelligence works. Intelligence is asked to do very difficult things to analyze the motives and actions of people overseas and we get it right a lot of the time and sometimes we don't. To just dismiss us because of one case where we clearly got it wrong doesn't really show tremendous understanding of how intelligence works.

CO: OK we saw what kind of action they took on the information that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction what action should be taken or what would a political office take on with the information that the Kremlin hacked into the election?

ML: This is the $64 question in cyber. One thing you could do if you were able to identify specific individuals who were responsible for the hacking. We can do what we've done in the case of the Chinese: Have named them publicly and indict them. Now they're not going to be handed over to us for trial but it is a public shaming. And when we did that to a bunch of officers in the Chinese army it forced President Xi to say, “OK look we reached some agreement about what's allowed and what's not allowed.” So you could do that. I mean you can hack, back but that gets you into a more uncertain situation of sort of you know cyber-attacks back and forth you'd really want to think about that? So I mean there are a number of things you can do way short of everything about the use of force.

CO: And now again back to Mr. Trump, who is dismissing all of this. What's the likelihood that he will completely ignore it given the fact that he is not in his interest a matter if it was for the purposes of altering the course of the election or not?

ML: Well, that's his right to ignore. Or just not to pay attention to intelligence. I think in this case, you're going to have to deal with the fact that both Republicans and Democrats on the Hill are not going to ignore it and intend to hold their own hearings. And that's something he can't affect or separate branch this issue to some degree it's going to move beyond his control.

CO: We know how the Democrats are responding to it. The Clinton campaign is called for the CIA's intelligence to be declassified. Is that something you would support?

ML: Not necessarily. Trouble is it's going to end up happening during the Trump administration he'd be unlikely to declassify it unless you had really definitive intelligence. It's unlikely to say to you hey let's make sure Trump wins. I don't think we have you're going to find that piece of intelligence if the Senate and the House if the Senate Republicans held hearings then some of the conclusions of those hearings may be publicized and there's not a lot he can do about that. He can't stop that.

CO: Why do you think that the intelligence community did not release this conclusion before the election?

ML: They may not have had it before the election. I mean intelligence is a very difficult business. I sometimes tell my classes it's like making mosaics out of constantly changing pieces of tile. And they may not have had sufficient intelligence to reach this conclusion until now. It's not that different from journalism. The story changes over time, you get more information and the story changes. And that changes the conclusion or leads to a new conclusion. It may not be anything more sinister than that.

CO: Do you wish you were still in the intelligence business?

ML: No I'm fine thank you. (Laughing) no I'm happy with them watching from the outside. I did it for a really long time. I think this issue would it be a very difficult issue to handle and I'm not unhappy about not having to handle it.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Lowenthal, thank you.

MARK LOWENTHAL: You're very welcome.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Mark Lowenthal is a former CIA senior analyst and the President and the CEO of the Intelligence and Security Academy. We reached him in Arlington, Virginia.

[Music: Ambient]

Restored film

Guest: Nikolaus Wostry

JEFF DOUGLAS: The film is more than 90 years old. But the warning it contains is still pertinent. “City Without Jews” debuted in Vienna in 1924 — at a time when Nazism was beginning to grow. It imagined what a fictional version of the Austrian capital would be like if it expelled its Jewish citizens. The silent movie went missing during the Second World War when Jews in Vienna really were fleeing or being killed. Now the original version of “City Without Jews” has been rediscovered and is being restored. Nikolaus Wostry works at the Austrian Film Archive. We reached him in Vienna.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Wostry, when you first saw this film. How did you feel?

NIKOLAUS WOSTRY: It was really a wonderful feeling because 90 per cent of the silent film period are lost. And “City Without Jews” is without any doubt, the most important Austrian silent and that we will get another source was quite unexpected I have to say.

CO: How did how did you feel emotionally about the content of the story of the “City Without Jews”?

NW: So far the film we had was not as direct a manifestation of the anti-Nazism. This film is much much more straight in its political message and that was really a wonder for us because you will certainly know Austria was really the seat of political anti-Semitism where Hitler learned his anti-Semitisms. We have a very heavy historical debt and that this film giving a total opposite position of humanity. That was really wonderful having found the missing link.

CO: The movie is set in a fictional German-speaking city. It's called Utopia — the city — and it's based on a novel. Tell us a bit about the story “City Without Jews”?

NW: The “City Without Jews” it's obviously located in Vienna with its very heavy anti-Semitism and it is a fiction. What would happen if a Jewish population would be expelled? It is showing also that in the end it would be very glad of having them back. This was not the reality which later came, but the pictures of this anti-Semitism of readiness for real brutal force against their own citizens this became reality at the time. And I think this was the reason why a lot of sequences were taken away. People couldn't really believe that such a scene would really get real later on.

CO: It was first screened in July 1924. And so how difficult at that time was to imagine what would happen to the Jews during the 1930’s?

NW: In the late it was very clear that these anti-Semitic feelings are very strong. And what the film depicts is that these feelings are very emotional. At that time I think nobody even the Nazis wouldn't even know it would lead to these incredible atrocities. But at this time the Austrian Nazis were totally ready for brutal force, for killing, for murderous.

CO: So the film is first seen in 1924 and you're saying that parts of it went missing, that you've been able to recover. Now what are the parts that were missing?

NW: What we didn't know was that this film was heavily mutilated in a way to make it a bit less brutal in its content. And there were also sequences taken away which is showing this persecution of totally innocent people and in the new version we found that there are a lot of sequences depicting Jewish life in Vienna, being a very rare and precious insight to the Jewish life here in Austria. So it's a fiction, but anyhow it has a sort of documentary quality.

CO: And in the story after the Jews are expelled after they're driven out of Utopia. What is it that happens in this city that makes the people want the Jews back?

NW: It happens that way of economic life is getting worse. It was always the Jews who were blamed for every economical bad situation. In the end it seen that with the Jewish population there is a very rich cultural and economic life. And in a way it's exactly what really happened. We were proud of Sigmund Freud having been here and a lot of others. But on the other hand, Austria never really take into account that it had also its own personal guilt in persecuting these citizens. It was not just a thing made by Adolf Hitler and Germany.

CO: People who have commented on this film, “City Without Jews”. They point to echoes — similarities — between that time in 1924 and our own age. Do you see parallels between that film and now?

NW: Yes. I think quite a lot. Especially nowadays with the so-called refugee problem it's not a problem. It is simply a matter of attitude. There are people now coming from Syria, from countries where they're really having great difficulties and Europe is not really welcoming them. And it is very comparable to the situation which was during the first world war and shortly afterwards refugees came to Vienna and came to the inner part of Austria which were Austrian subjects the Austrian citizens that came here to Vienna. A lot of them the Jewish background and they were facing quite an enormous hesitation to help. And quite the hatred even. And the Austrians really tried eagerly to expel these people, who had to come as refugees forced to come as refugees. They were Austrians in a way, but they denied them to citizenship and tried to exclude two completely from society.

CO: Just finally, what happened to some of the people the people who made the film in the 1920’s I understand what happened to them was quite awful. Can you tell us what happened?

NW: In general a lot of people working in the Austrian film industry were victims of the Holocaust. Some didn't come back some came back. One of the main actors who was not Jewish, but had in this film the role of a terrible anti-Semite. He in fact, also had a career during the Nazi time, but his wife was Jewish and he just could work with a very special permission. He was not a Nazi he was not in any way close to the Nazis. But he stayed a Star. So it's a very mixed history as well with certain people working in these films a very split society already reflecting history in that sense as well.

CAROL OFF: I hope people — many people — get to see this film Mr. Wostry, and I appreciate speaking with you.

NIKOLAUS WOSTRY : We would love to. I thank you very much. Good bye.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Nikolaus Wostry works at the Austrian Film Archive, in Vienna. He is behind the restoration of the 1924 film “City Without Jews”. We have more on the story on our website www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Esma Redzepova obit

JEFF DOUGLAS: She and her husband fostered forty-seven kids. She was also a city councilor in Skopje, the capital of Macedonia. And she did charity and advocacy work for all kinds of causes especially on behalf of her fellow Roma people. So obviously Esma Redzepova was busy. What I just told you, however, isn't half of it because over a 50 year career. Ms. Redzepova released one hundred eight singles and at least 20 albums. She was known as the Queen of Roma Music and her journey to the throne was a long one though. It started when she was 14 and she went to radio singing competition first complication. Her parents hadn't given her permission to enter that competition and when they found out she had, her dad was angry. But as Ms. Redzepova told NPR quote, “I promised to him that if I became a singer I would only be a radio singer. I'd never play in restaurants or bars or something like that.” Second complication Roma music was not allowed on the radio in the former Yugoslavia and that was where Stevo Tedosievski came in. He helped train Ms. Redzepova to sing as a teenager and she helped him realize his vision: to make Roma music not just acceptable, but popular. And eventually they got married which created a third complication. The Roma community was upset because Mr. Tedosievski was not Roma and, of course, fourth complication other people were angry that he had married a Roma woman. So all these things were complications, they were all obstacles but they did not slow Esma Redzepova down much, she did not compromise, she did not back down she just barreled through. A talent too great and too driven to be stopped. She had dozens of radio hits. She became a worldwide ambassador for Roma music and she did her advocacy and charity work and she raised those forty-seven kids many of whom went on to play in her band as Esma Redzepova died yesterday. She was 73-years-old.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Fentanyl funeral director, Sadiq Jalal Al-Azm

Fentanyl funeral director

Guest: John Romeyn

JEFF DOUGLAS: For John Romeyn, it is impossible to ignore the fentanyl crisis. Mr. Romeyn is a funeral director in British Columbia and, more and more, he is organizing funerals for people whose relatives have died of fentanyl overdose. Mr. Romeyn’s connection to the situation is not just professional, it's also personal. And that is why he is raising money to create a video about the fentanyl crisis that he hopes to show to high school students in British Columbia. We reached John Romeyn in Aldergrove, British Columbia.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Romeyn, how often are you preparing a funeral for someone who has died of a fentanyl overdose?

JOHN ROMEYN: I guess as of late, it's been three to four a month just in our facility alone.

CO: Three to four a month?

JR: That's correct.

CO: And how does that compare with previous years?

JR: You know, I mean I guess the last couple of years it's been you know a fair amount. This past year has been the worst year without question.

CO: And what are you hearing from the families who are bringing their deceased to you for a funeral what are their experiences?

JR: Well, I mean generally we get a call. You know I mean if the family is notified by the RCMP you know that evening, we usually get the call the next day or the day after that. So they’re still pretty raw. We oftentimes try to give them a day or two before we actually meet with them, but you know we're hearing the same thing over and over again. You know I don't understand. I don't understand why they did this? I've heard them probably the most profound thing I heard was a few months ago when I when I talked to a father who said he'd promised to take his daughter shopping for a dress for graduation. Now he has to shop for clothing for her to wear in a casket.

CO: How old was she?

JR: She was 20.

CO: My gosh. And so this is it brings us to what people are saying about this epidemic is that it's just across a very broad cross-section of people. There's just so many different types of people walks of life ages that are involved. What is your own experience with the people who are dying from Fenton overdose?

JR: Well, that's the thing. It has no age limit. And what we're been seeing a lot of media is people in their late teens or early 20’s and early 30’s. I think you know a lot of people have this misconception that a drug addict or somebody who lives on the Downtown Eastside Vancouver. That's their lifestyle, but unfortunately we're seeing more because we're more in the suburbs where we are we're seeing more people in affluent areas that are going through exactly the same thing.

CO: Your own son had a tragic experience and they can you tell us about that?

JR: He was at a party at a friend's house and one of his friends overdosed on fentanyl. They tried to revive him. Unfortunately, he was pronounced dead at the hospital and didn't survive that incident. He was only in his 20’s as well.

CO: And what effect would that have on your son?

JR: He actually quit the business. My son worked here at the funeral home, but it started to affect him a little bit too much. He left the business he couldn't. It's been pretty tough on him.

CO: You have some ideas about how to reach young people especially with the message of how dangerous this drug is and drugs in general. What are your ideas?

JR: Our campaign here at the funeral home is really to make more of an awareness in the school surrounding. You know, in the in the ages where maybe we can educate the kids prior to when they get to a certain age where you know, they don't think about it as much. So our goal really is to take this campaign into the local high schools to start with and then kind of take it from there and we're more after a shock factor than we are a you know kind of walking around the situation it's going to be bold and you know, shocking is what we're looking for.

CO: You also have some ideas from the funeral home of how you can shock young people?

JR: Yeah, we you know we have our plans of bringing a funeral coach or a hearse for what most people call it with a casket and kind of being a little bit more obvious a little bit more up front as to what you know what can be involved and what can happen and you know this could be you kind of thing you know. Not really a mock funeral but something to that effect.

CO: So you bring a hearse and a casket to this the high school?

JR: Correct. We actually I was invited to a campaign locally in the lower mainland of Vancouver here and we made that suggestion to the high school. And their reaction was we don't want to upset anybody and it's too fresh in some people's minds and I said, “Well that's exactly that we want to do. We do want to upset people we don't want to have them see the reality of it.”

CO: But now are the schools more receptive?

JR: We're working on that now and we're hoping to have something in place in the New Year.

CO: I can understand because you have you're seeing so many of these deaths that you want to get the message out, but what why are you so engaged with this? What's so important to you about being involved in educating people about addiction?

JR: Well it's twofold. I mean I'm I am a former a addict myself — 27 years. And you know the alternative is cremation services, which is who I represent in this campaign. This is the kind of business we don't want.

CO: You said you had an issue that you wrestled with for 27 years?

JR: That's correct.

CO: So how hard has it been for you to watch this crisis unfold?

JR: This has been my therapy. You know it's been you know in some ways I guess you can call it that. But I mean it started off as a personal campaign and then we've decided to move it over to the company because I think you know, it becomes a little bit more realistic when we're dealing with people in our industry. You know, I give you an example I spoke to a colleague of mine over the weekend and he prepared for people for funerals last week and then another colleague was seven last week. So it's not just one funeral home, it is every funeral home, were just one of many funeral homes in the lower mainland.

CO: And those were all drug overdoses?

JR: Actually there were all fentanyl overdoses.

CO: So you want to do something about that?

JR: I feel that as a funeral home we can make a difference. I think that's really the biggest part. You know if we can help one person fantastic and you know that seems like such a cliché, but honestly you know, at funeral home I work at we're not interested in this kind of business we're more interested in you know, the natural kind of business that we would deal with. But this is just becoming over and over. I'm only one of six directors at this office, so it's not just me looking after these families it's five other directors doing the same thing.

CAROL OFF Mr. Romeyn, I appreciate speaking with you and I appreciate what you're trying to do.

JOHN ROMEYN: Thank you very much.

JEFF DOUGLAS: John Romeyn is a funeral director in Aldergrove, British Columbia. That is where we reached him. And there's more on that story on our website which is www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Somber]

Trudeau hostages

JEFF DOUGLAS: He stands by the decision, but it does haunt him. Today, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau held a year-end press conference where Huffington Post reporter Althia Raj asked about his biggest regret of the past year. And while the Prime Minister did not use the word regret, he did reflect on the deaths of Canadians Robert Hall and John Ridsdel. Both men had been captured by the extremist group Abu Sayyaf, in the Philippines. The group demanded ransom — 28 million dollars — for each man for their release, but the government refused to negotiate with Abu Sayyaf. The prime minister remained committed to a policy of not paying ransoms but here is Justin Trudeau speaking about that decision for the record.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: But if I had to pick a low point for me personally last year. It was the deaths of two Canadians by the Abu Sayyaf group in the Philippines, which was something that obviously was personally difficult for me as I had the responsibility for directing and articulating the Canadian position. But also the opportunity and the responsibility to speak with their families, I think that reflecting on the fact that we live in a very dangerous world and the responsibility that any government has to keep its citizens safe now and in the future needs to be top of mind. Any time situations come up in which we lose lives like that it's going to be difficult for any leader.

ALTHIA RAJ: Is there anything that you felt you could have done differently? Do you regret publicly saying that Canada would not negotiate?

JT: I think people understand and the Canadians I've spoken with across the country in the months following certainly understand. Any other position would not just provide a source of significant funds to violent terrorists intent on causing more harm and taking more lives. But it would also endanger — further — the lives of any Canadian citizen who works travels or lives outside of our borders.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speaking with reporters in Ottawa earlier today.

[Music: Electronica]

Sadiq Jalal Al-Azm

Guest: Amr al-Azm

JEFF DOUGLAS: When the wave of the Arab Spring made its way to Syria nearly six years ago, Sadiq Jalal al-Azm was feeling more hopeful than he had in a very long time. The Syrian author, academic and philosopher compared his country to quote, “a pressure cooker whose temperature rises very quickly hour after hour with all the safety valves disabled.” And even as that revolution collapsed into civil war, he carried hope that his country would eventually overcome war. Mr. al-Azm died yesterday in Berlin, where he was living in exile. He was 82-years-old. Amr al-Azm is his son. We reached him at the Columbus International Airport, in Ohio.

CAROL OFF: Mr. al-Azm, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your father.

AMR AL-AZM: Thank you.

CO: Your father Sadiq Jalal al-Azm was one of Syria's most important philosophers. He’s a prolific author leading academic. He's dying at a very critical moment during the war in Syria. What thoughts has he shared — did he share — with you before he died on the state of affairs in his country?

AA: I mean, you know he and I have talked often about the situation in Syria as the conflict unfolded it took its many turns. I often wonder if there would be a way to come back from the terrible carnage that had formed the country. I would say to him look this country this society has ruptured across every possible cleavage. How are we going to put this back together again? He seemed to have this almost indomitable faith that this was going to be OK in the end that the Syrians will somehow manage to push through and rally back from the brink of the abyss. And I think he died with that hope in him, despite everything that we know that has happened.

CO: Philosophers are not given to wishful thinking, so what was it based on? what was he working with in his understanding about his country and about its direction that he had that optimism?

AA: I think in part he felt that Syrians have a — despite everything — they're not sort of so driven to extremist ideologies as somehow this conflict has been so characterized with. You know, with the appearance of ISIS and Jamaat in Basra you know deep seated sectarianism all these are you know manifestations that are in many ways considered to be or thought to have been alien to Syrians. And so I think he's he believed somehow that despite these manifestations there was still enough there within that society in terms of normalcy or let's say a moderate sort of sense of being and a need to survive this conflict and that this would eventually overpower, overcome leading these extremist ideology and hold things together. I think it was more a gut feeling for him. Just based on his long experience of Syrians and Syrian society, he just felt that this was a popular movement that started as a popular uprising and that disparity will not be sort of extinguished by the last year turn of events that we’ve seen today.

CO: And that was a lot of people when we first saw the uprising in parts of Syria that led to this war that was the idea that Syrians were quite moderate that day for them to have become part of Arab Spring was quite extraordinary. What does your father understand as to what was it where was the spirit of revolution coming from?

AA: I think he always understood that Syrians had it in them to rise up or demand what is rightfully theirs in terms of basic human rights and move towards democracy etcetera. Remember the Arab Spring was not the first time that this has happened; there have been several attempts and efforts. And he had been involved in them as early as 2000 after the death of Bashar’s father. And then we had that brief moment of what we referred to as the “Damascus Spring”. And then there was other moments around 2005 - 2006. So there's been these moments where there have been efforts to try and push back against the regime but eventually to kind of explodes in the protests of March, 2011 and obviously this was to him a very important turning moment in the history of Syria, modern Syria that is. But I don't like I said I know that he never really lost hope he always felt that moderate Syria is the Syria that he wanted to see come out of this would eventually prevail.

CO: How difficult was it for him not to live in that society within it? He was living in exile in Berlin, which is where you're headed now for his funeral. How difficult was it for him to be in Germany and be in his country?

AA: I think it was in some ways difficult. I mean my father has lived all over the world. He has lived in the United States and Europe. So being away from Syria in itself was not unusual, but the idea that he would never be able to go back and more importantly he had that strong very strong sense that he as a Syrian had as much right to that country as anyone else. Even I remember you know back in 2008-2009 when they were constantly harassing him every time he came back to Syria they would sort of take him away for questioning or they would require him to get security clearance and leave again he would still come back insisting that he was not going to succumb if you wish to their pressures or to the constant harassment.

CO: I understand though your father has a quite famous personal library still in Damascus.

AA: Yes he does. And it's still there. I think he would. I believe he dreamt that one day he would be able to go back. That library was where many of his most famous manuscripts, books writings and speeches were formed. He was quite a remarkable man, I remember he would wake he had a very strict routine where he'd wake up in the morning. He did make himself a cup of coffee. And then he would shave, wash and then go to his library shut the door and then work and write. Then you'd come out have a very light lunch and maybe a piece of fruit and then go back in there again and not come out until late afternoon. And if you walked past the house you would always see maybe a light because one of the windows into the street and you'd see people standing in the street looking in just to see him writing on looking around the books but quite a well-known landmark.

CO: Mr. al-Azm, once again I'm sorry for the loss of your father and I know you've got to get your fight for Berlin. Thank you so much for speaking with us.

AMR AL-AZM: Thank you for having me. Bye.

CAROL OFF: Bye bye.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Amr al-Azm is the son of Syrian philosopher and academic Sadiq Jalal al-Azm. He died yesterday. He was 82-years-old. This is not the first time that we have reached Amr al-Azm on this program. He is a former official with Syria's Department of Antiquities and we spoke with him when the city of Palmyra was captured by ISIS and then retaken by the Syrian regime. Today the so-called Islamic State announced it had once again seized control of the ancient site, a claim that U.S. officials are still working to confirm.

[Music: Industrial]

From our archives: SantaCon

JEFF DOUGLAS: You know what it's like. It's kind of like your local Santa Claus parade, except everyone is dressed as Santa Claus and everyone is hammered and pretty much no one except for the drunken Santa is very jolly about it at all. I'm talking about SantaCon an annual celebration where thousands of people dress up as Santa and wreak Holiday havoc in cities around the world. One city that has tried unsuccessfully to ban SantaCon outright is New York City, this past weekend organizers even put up posters claiming the event was canceled. Neighborhood groups were armed with megaphones, but still they came, a wave of Santa and there were a few incidents, but it was nowhere near as bad as it's been in the past. In December of 2014 we spoke to bartender Betsy Maher who told us just how ugly SantaCon gets in Bushwick. Here's part of that conversation. And a warning to anyone who might be eating or who has a vivid imagination — or both. Some of what Ms. Maher says is pretty gross.

SOUNDCLIP

BETSY MAHER: It's just turned into this ridiculous debacle that gives people the feeling that they have an excuse to destroy things, to act like an idiot and basically just be completely disrespectful.

CAROL OFF: Can you describe a typical SantaCon just you know go all out and give us half the images that you can remember about SantaCon’s past?

BM: Really? Fights if you can imagine anywhere from two to twenty Santas’ fighting each other like to the death on the streets in a drunken brawl. If you can imagine them pissing on everywhere outside or in your bar on the wall, pissing themselves, vomiting all over themselves, vomiting on each other, vomiting across a communal table at a restaurant, passing out in bathrooms when they have (censored) themselves. Sorry can I say that?

CO: You just did.

BETSY MAHER: Poop or pee themselves, it’s gross. Actually a friend of mine, who used to work at this Irish bar in the city told me one of his worst experiences which was he had just gotten finished bartending and his bar was full of drunken Santas’ and he was like, “I'm finally done it’s 4 a.m the bar is closed, the gates are down, I'm safe and he goes to use the bathroom and he steps in something like wet his foot kind of sinks into it and there is a pair of Santa pants completely filled with diarrhea on the ground that he just stepped right in. And if that doesn't perfectly describe it, I don't know what.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Ho ho ho, Betsy Maher a bartender in Bushwick, speaking to us about Santa Con in 2014. The event went ahead and went ahead again this year, despite her best efforts.

Back To Top »

Part 3: Safe injection: Philpott, trans refugee swimmer

Safe injection: Philpott

Guest: Jane Philpott

JEFF DOUGLAS: It is going to be easier to open safe injection sites in Canada, and harder to smuggle deadly drugs into the country. At least that is what Jane Philpott hopes. The Health Minister announced a series of measures today all aimed at reducing the alarming rate of deaths from opioids like fentanyl. The announcement comes after months of appeals from families, from health care workers from local politicians we reach Minister Philpott in Ottawa.

CAROL OFF: Minister Philpott, why should Canadians support your plan to help drug addicts use illegal drugs?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, today we introduced a new approach to drug policy in this country: The Canadian Drugs and Substance Strategy. And this is in recognition in part of the fact that we are facing in this country a very serious and growing public health crisis as it relates to opioids and the growing number of opioid overdose deaths in this country are something that one must pay attention to. We also know that there is a large body of evidence that says that responding to these issues with a public health framework is the right way to go. And as it relates to supervised consumption sites that we know that when they're well-established and maintained that they save lives and prevent infections and helps people get into the care system that they need.

CO: And so why should community support them because you know you're going to get a lot of opposition from city councils from mayors who say no, we don't want these safe injection sites in our neighborhoods what's in it for our communities?

JP: Well, it's important that Canadians understand that the communities that want and need these and where they're appropriate are crying out for them. I have been receiving pleading requests from places like downtown Vancouver and a number of other sites in British Columbia where people are dying every single day as a result of accidental opioids. In those communities they know because they've had sites including a site that's been functioning since 2003. And in fact, in communities where the matter of opiate overdoses is a serious matter that they have in fact improved public safety that they've helped people to have they find a place to get off the street and to make sure that the needles are not found in parks and public spaces, so you know they they're not necessarily needed in a large number of communities across the country but in places where they are needed where they're well-maintained. We know that they have no impact on crime rates and that they in fact improve public safety as well as saving people's lives.

CO: But you have at least one mayor in Ottawa Jim Watson, who thinks that this is not a good use of public money and does not want this safe injection site in his city and is saying as others are that this is a Band-Aid policy to allow for a safe injection site when there's so much addiction.

JP: Well in fact, what his comments point to is the fact that of course the approach to drug policy has to be comprehensive and there's no single measure that is going to address this. The evidence is absolutely clear that supervised consumptions have their place in the strategy, but the part where I would agree with the Mayor is that in fact there are other measures that have to also be undertaken that there has to be better access to treatment services that we have to work with health care providers to make sure that they recognize addiction and help watch for the signs of addiction. That they they're very wise in their prescribing practice so as not to unnecessarily get people using opioids. So he's right that there's no single measure that's going to solve that, but certainly supervised consumption are one of the important measures in communities where the crisis is most significant.

CO: What you are proposing is a very large shift in philosophy from the Harper government. It is to move the drug strategy into the health realm out of the Ministry of Justice for the most part, to move the way out of the police and into health care. Why are you doing that why do you think that's the right way to go?

JP: Well, we're very pleased to be able to move this into a public health plan. And I think it's been widely recognized by health experts and justice experts that in fact, issues like addiction are health issues and they ought to be treated as such. Addiction is a chronic illness. I've heard certainly lots of law enforcement officials who have said we will never arrest our way out of this problem that in fact, there's no evidence that a law enforcement approach to opioids into addiction in general and substance use disorder in general is an effective approach. But where we do see that people are able to have their addiction treated where they are be able to access appropriate health care services that in fact people are able to address that particular illness. And our sense is that this is the right approach and it's certainly been something that's been advocate for by health experts across the country for many years now.

CO: We just spoke with the funeral director in Aldergrove, British Columbia in the lower mainland, who says he and other funeral directors are bearing an unprecedented number of people from all walks of life all drug overdoses and that's just one of the many stories. You know them as well as everybody else just what an absolute epidemic we're facing right now. Why do you think that your plan is actually going to make a difference to that epidemic?

JP: Well, clearly the current approach has not been effective and you're absolutely right that this is a growing crisis in numbers and particularly in British Columbia, but increasingly across the country continue to escalate. And you're absolutely right that it can be people from all walks of life that are affected by possible addiction and possible accidental overdose. And our government is actually taking this challenge head on we are not denying that it's an issue we're recognizing that we need a comprehensive approach that we need to collaborate. The federal government needs to work with provinces and territories in civil society and people with lived experience that we've put together a comprehensive federal opioid action plan. And with this kind of attention that our government is putting into this issue we're absolutely determined that we will turn the tide.

CAROL OFF: I'm sure we will be speaking about this again. Minister Philpott, thank you.

JANE PHILPOTT: It's my pleasure. Thank you.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Jane Philpott is Canada's Minister of Health. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient]

CPR search

JEFF: DOUGLAS: Mark Smith is finally beginning to get a clear picture of how his life was saved. Just over a year ago on December 6th of 2015, the 62-year-old collapsed on a sidewalk in Winnipeg. Mr. Smith believes he would be dead, were it not for an angel — or angels — who came to his aid and all he knew was that someone called 911 and someone gave him CPR. Well this morning he went on CBC Radio in Manitoba to thank those strangers and then something remarkable happened. Here is Mark Smith speaking earlier today on Information Radio, with host Marcy Markusa.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK SMITH: Obviously someone had come across me or seen me go down immediately started CPR and called 911 and my wife was told from one of the ambulance attendants that this person performed CPR for about 10 minutes before they arrived on the scene. They took me to St. Boniface General Hospital and I was placed into therapeutic hypothermia which means they lowered my body temperature in order to prevent the brain from suffering from lack of oxygen injury you know?

MARCY MARKUSA: What did the paramedics tell you what how critical that was the people came to your aid?

MS: It's the only thing that made me survive. My heart actually stopped when they arrived on scene they had to defibrillate me like zap me you know what paddles. And then again on the way to the hospital it stopped again. So I was in pretty critical condition. I was the most intensive patient they had in intensive care that evening.

MM: If you were to talk to someone that were there that day and took the time in this busy season in the cold weather didn't know who you were to save your life to be around you what would you say to them?

MS: I would hug them and I would think them so much for what they did. I'm just curious about the whole few minutes where I was barely alive and then they showed up and made this all possible to be here today.

MM: Mark, in the last number of minutes somebody wrote to us on our Facebook page. We'd like to get them on the line. This is Jamie Boulerice and she was there that day, hi Jamie.

JAMIE BOULERICE: Hi, how are you?

MM: I'm very well; you want to say hi to Mark?

JB: Hi Mark how are you?

MS: Hi Jamie, I'm doing great.

MM: I understand you and you Jamie had been thinking and wondering what happened to Mark this whole year is that right?

JB: Absolutely. Me and my friend were actually standing across the street. I lived right across the street from where it had happened. And I looked across the street and I said to her. Is that a rock or is that a man. Because I saw something hunched over and so whenever she turned around that's whenever you actually fully collapsed onto the ground. So me and her ran across the street over to help you and when we ran across to you a man was walking out of the apartment building that you collapsed in front of and so he was the one who called the ambulance. In the meantime another man was walking down the sidewalk and he was the one guy actually gave you the CPR while we laid you out in the street and just hours to get ready for it.

MS: Wow it's so incredible to hear how many people were involved in making this happen and just amazing.

JB: Absolutely it was incredible. I woke up this morning and I was just looking on the news and I saw the article and I screenshoted it and sent it to my best friend right away and I said Oh my goodness this is the man. There's been so many times since then what we've just said I wonder if he made it I wonder what happened after he got into an ambulance and they drove off?

MS: Thank you much.

JAMIE BOULERICE: You're welcome. I'm so happy to hear that you're OK.

MARK SMITH: Amazing! Totally, really great that so many people are stepping up and trying to make all the connections that's really special.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Mark Smith speaking earlier today on Information Radio with host Marcy Markusa. Joining him and the host was also Jamie Boulerice, who helped save Mr. Smith's life one year ago after he collapsed on a sidewalk in Winnipeg.

[Music: Ambient]

Trans refugee swimmer

Guest: Adebayo Katiiti

JEFF DOUGLAS: When Adebayo Katiiti came to Canada. He says he did not plan on staying here, this summer the Ugandan summer was here for an international competition. Soon after arriving however, news of his recent arrest aired on national television back home his family told him not to return. Mr. Katiiti is transgender and in Uganda that is criminal. Now he has qualified for refugee status in Edmonton and that is where we reached him.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Katiiti, what does it mean for you to have refugee status here in Canada?

ADEBAYO KATIITI: It really means a lot. Canada saved my life and I'm so happy that I’m here to stay.

CO: In what way did Canada save your life?

AK: My life was in danger back home in Uganda I went through a lot I was sexually harassed, I was raped, beaten I even got a gun shot from one of the policemen in Uganda just because of my dress code I Mr. Pride Uganda. I was on the 2016 Gay Pride in Uganda. The police raided that event and I was on the runway. I was grabbed by the police men, I was highly between. The policemen pulled hair out of my head; I was undressed to check if it was a man or a woman. My phone was taken, they removed the memory card. Yeah, so a lot really happened.

CO: This happened, this arrest, this heart beating and all the things you went through that happened just before you came to Canada. Is that right?

AK: Yes.

CO: And so when you came to Canada How did you come to decide that you were not going to go home? What was the thing that finally decided for you that you could not return to Uganda?

AK: Yeah, when I came to Canada my intention was not to stay in Canada. I used to stay with my family and they used to take care of me. So did national television in Uganda it showed that raid — the police raid — on the Gay Pride event. I was already in Canada so my family chased me away, my family called me evil they were like if I go back they will kill me.

CO: You were here on a travel visa for an International Gay and Lesbian swimming championship?

AK: Oh yes.

CO: What was it like when you got that message from your parents?

AK: I felt so bad, I felt hopeless and I felt like I don’t belong anywhere anymore.

CO: And have you had much support here in Canada since you declared refugee status?

AK: Oh yes, I’ve had support from two groups the queer people and Saint Paul’s United Church have really helped me. They’ve been there for me, anything I wanted, they could provide.

CO: And what effect did this news that came out in Uganda did that have an effect on your teammates at the swimming championship?

AK: Oh yeah, my two teammates lost their jobs.

CO: They lost their jobs when they went back to Uganda after the news came out?

AK: Yes.

CO: And so they are still there? And are they safe are they in any danger?

AK: Some are in hiding that's what they told me.

CO: Have you had any more contact from your family?

AK: Yes I have talked to my bisexual sister. She keeps updating me with what the family has decided because they didn't know about being bisexual, so.

CO: They don't know that she's bisexual?

AK: Yeah, they don't know. So she keeps updating me.

CO: Do you think it's at all possible for your family to understand you and your sister?

AK: It's impossible because in Uganda it is very dangerous. I don't think they will ever understand me, so it’s hard.

CAROL OFF: Well, Mr. Katiiti, I hope things work out for you and I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

ADEBAYO KATIITI: Thank you so much.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Adebayo Katiiti is a transgender Ugandan swimmer and now a refugee in Canada. We reached him in Edmonton.

[Music: Ambient]

Solitary confinement

JEFF DOUGLAS: As it is called in many penitentiaries the segregation section of the Edmonton federal institution is called “the hole”. Matthew Hamm spent 43 days in the hole while serving time at that institution for robbery. Back in the summer, Mr. Hamm successfully fought to be released from isolation. And now that he is out on parole, he and two other inmates are suing the federal government for 5.6 million dollars for putting them there in the first place. This morning CBC host David Gray spoke with Matthew Hamm. Here's a bit of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

MATTHEW HAMM: The way I could describe it is so imagine you're living in your bathroom for months and months sometimes for years. Right? And instead of the bathtub that's your bed. That's it. You have a little desk in the corner somewhere. You can't open the door unless it is opened for you. And there's a slot in the door and your breakfast, your lunch and your dinner is put through the slot for you to eat. That is your life every day, every night every afternoon. Now also imagine that you're technically they're supposed to give you an hour out in the yard, but they put you in a little cage that's smaller than your cell. It's in a concrete area that you have no view of the surrounding area.

DAVID GRAY: Is this part of a larger fight for you? Are you trying to make a point about how the correctional service of Canada uses segregation?

MH: Absolutely I am because it goes far beyond this. The things that I've seen in segregation I have spent so much time in segregation and never once have I ever spent a single day in solitary confinement for a disciplinary issue. It is always what they call administrative segregation.

DG: Matthew, the Correctional Services of Canada says that segregation solitary confinement is not a form of punishment. Do you believe that?

MATHEW HAMM: No no no no. It is definitely a form of punishment. Not every person in jail is a monster. You know, people mash up. Yeah, there are monsters in there, but there's also people in there that you know made mistakes man.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Matthew Hamm is a former inmate of the Edmonton Institution. He spoke with the host of the Calgary Eyeopener, David Gray. Mr. Hamm and two other inmates are suing the federal government for 5.6 million dollars because they were placed in administrative segregation. In its statement of defense obtained by the CBC the Attorney General of Canada denies all the claims made in the lawsuit.

[Music: Rock]

Patti Smith Nobel performance

JEFF: DOUGLAS: If you like things polished, you’re likely not a Bob Dylan fan. Not just because of his famously divisive voice, but because he, himself, has never been big on smooth sounds. The imperfect is more beautiful and so he is probably very happy about Patti Smith's performance at the Nobel Prize presentation ceremony in Stockholm on the weekend. It did not go smoothly, but it did go beautifully. As you know Bob Dylan won this year's Nobel for literature. He couldn't make it to Stockholm to receive it instead. Ms. Smith — a legend of course in her own right — was there to perform his 1963 song “A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall”. Now whether it was the grandeur of the occasion or the sense of responsibility she felt for the material, something tripped her up. Now you may have seen the video, but that was only about two minutes into her performance. Over the six minutes following, Ms. Smith and the orchestra persevered and the result was more memorable and more moving because of that tiny imperfection.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Dec. 12, 2016 episode transcript

More Stories Like This