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The AIH Transcript for December 9, 2016

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

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JD: Tonight.

CO: rockets and a hard place. A teacher in Aleppo is living under constant bomb and artillery attacks. But he tells us it's still safer to stay than to leave the city and put himself in the hands of the Syrian regime.

JD: A semi -hostile climate on making the climate less hostile as the Premier's meet the PM almost all the provinces are on board with the carbon tax. But there's a cold wind blowing in from the west.

CO; It wasn't there cheating hearts that told on them. It was Russian athletes bladders. What came out of them and how the state helped them cheat on urine tests. According to a new report on the scope of the state sponsored doping program.

JD: More sanctions less sanctimony, an NDP MP thinks it's great that the government is expanding sanctions against Russia for invading Ukraine, but she'd like them expanded further to include two of President Putin's pals.

CO: Eggs Benedict Arnold, in what sounds like the set up for a hilarious time travel comedy. But isn't actress Sofia Vergara is being sued by her own frozen embryos. I'm sorry I do not have time to repeat that.

JD: And her goal is to come out on top without one. We went to the As It Happens archives looking for something and came back instead with a 40-year-old interview with Crazy Pattie, one of the pioneers of topless mud wrestling. As It Happens the Friday edition, radio with a muddy back guarantee.

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Part 1: Aleppo resident, Russia doping, frozen embryos lawsuit

Aleppo resident

Guest: Abdulkafi Alhamdu

JEFF DOUGLAS: Tonight residents of rebel-held East Aleppo face an impossible choice. They can stay and risk death from the bombs and the artillery of the approaching Syrian forces, or they can try to flee to an unknown fate at the hands of the Assad regime. The United Nations says it is concerned about hundreds of men from eastern Aleppo who may have gone missing after crossing two regime held areas. Abdulkafi Alhamdu is an English professor in East Aleppo. We managed to reach him huddled near a generator where he was able to get a rare internet connection.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Alhamdu, what are you seeing around you in Aleppo right now?

ABDULKAFI ALHAMDU: OK, now it's night. No people in the streets because bombing is always all the time. So all people just in your houses and a little you know alone in my streets — in dark streets — you don't get lost. And the most common thing that I see in the eyes of people is fear. The fear is in the eyes of children, women, old people, students, teachers you know all people have this aspect of fear of what is next.

CO: The Russians and the Syrian regime is saying that it's safe for people to leave East Aleppo and to leave the rebel-held area. Is that true?

AA: They said that it's safe for us to leave. I will tell you what's happened to some people who went through the regime area. One of my students, he was studying English in my institute. He went to the regime with his father. They were both arrested and two people are relatives of mine. My friend was also arrested. Three men, two sons and their father were arrested also. The young people were sent to the front lines. Many people now don’t know anything about them. And even if their relatives go to the regime to ask about them they said we don't know where are they. I want to tell you that it’s not safe at all to get to the regime areas.

CO: I will repeat back what you said because it's a very it's very important to be talking to you but we can't get a good line, so I will just to say that you're saying that people are disappearing as they go over to the regime-held side of the line. We’ve actually heard that hundreds of men from Eastern Aleppo have gone missing after they crossed the line into the area controlled by the regime. Is that what you are hearing?

AA: Exactly. One of my students who was working in a charity, his father was working in the local council. They they were arrested and now no one knows anything about them.

CO: Would it be safe for you to leave? Do you think that you would be arrested if you crossed out of East Aleppo?

AA: Of course, going to the regime is the worst choice ever for civilians who are living in this part of East Aleppo. So death is a favor, it is much much better than going to the regime areas.

CO: What kind of military attack are you experiencing in East Aleppo right now?

AA: They are attacking us with many you know heavy guns and with artillery shelling. It's so so scary to go out five minutes out of the house. By the way, well I'm talking to you now I'm making grits of my life. My wife is full of tears. She says don’t go out.

CO: I'm just going to repeat back because we're losing you. You are risking your life to be outside. At this center right now where you are able to speak with us and this is very high likelihood of being attacked where you are so exposed. I don't want to keep you very long because I know how dangerous it is.

AA: You can’t imagine the amount of shelling OK. And you know the shelling is faster than you can do anything. It's falls beside you and kills you. So people are so afraid of going out. For me now, I’m here I’m risking my life. I want this sound to be out. I want the world to know this: people here are so afraid. You know, days later we might not have internet, so people outside will not know what's going on inside the eastern part of Aleppo. They will kill us in silence and no one will know what happened to us.

CO: I don't know if we will be able to reach you again. So I want to ask you what is the message you want people outside to know? What is the message from inside East Aleppo that you would like to get out to the world?

AA: Thank you very much. OK. I want all the people all over the world to know that people are besieged in an area which might be in the same area of the White House and those people are being attacked with all kinds of weapons. Every minute, every second OK. And we are surrounded. They are besieging those people with their women with their children. Most of the leaders of the world want to you know give a lesson for those oppressed peoples not to ask for freedom or otherwise they are going to be killed like animals. This is exactly what's going to go on. And we are being killed because we wanted freedom and no one will ask about us. We just wanted freedom and this is what we faced, genocide.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Alhamdu, we're losing the line. I'm afraid we it's hard to hear what you're saying. Please be safe; thank you for speaking with us and thank you for risking your life to come out to speak to us tonight.

ABDULKAFI ALHAMDU : Thank you.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Abdulkafi Alhamdu is an English professor in East Aleppo. We reached him there earlier today. If you'd like to listen to that again or share that interview it is on our website www.cbc.ca/aih.

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Russia doping

Guest: Richard McLaren

JEFF DOUGLAS: Back in July a Canadian law professor Richard McLaren said that Russian athletes had been cheating and the Russian government had helped them do it. After his report a ban was put in place that saw more than 100 Russian athletes banned from the Summer Olympics in Rio and the entire Paralympic Team banned. Thanks to that report, we knew things were bad. Until now though we did not know how bad it was. Professor McLaren has just published a second report for the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and according to that report, Russia's state-sponsored doping program included a thousand athletes in 30 sports. Now the International Olympic Committee has to decide what that will mean for the 2018 Winter Games. We reached Professor Richard McLaren in London. U.K.

CAROL OFF: Professor McLaren, you presented a very damning report in July on doping with Russian athletes. What is the purpose of this report today?

RICHARD MCLAREN: Well, we have a lot of data in July which we had not had the opportunity to examine and information was coming into our possession as late as a few days before we were to report in July. So we've asked for a time period to look at the data and report on individual athletes.

CO: And you've taken this much further. Can you give us some of the findings that people are quite shocked to read in this report?

RM: Well, the most egregious ones I think probably were the ones that went on at Sochi, where an athlete would have months beforehand produced a clean urine sample, had it stored, shipped to Sochi for use during the Winter Games stayed on a doping control program throughout the months leading up to and possibly even during the games knowing that when they provided a sample at the competition that it would go to the lab and be changed to the clean sample provided months before. That's a very elaborate sophisticated scheme evasion and manipulation.

CO: You mentioned also that there were there was DNA samples that were disguised. Tell us how DNA how it was used?

RM: Well, we ran DNA on a number of samples to try and determine whether the sample actually belonged to the person who it was supposed to belong to. One of the difficulties in doing that is you need to know what our athletes actual DNA is. So you have to find somewhere else in the world a lab that has a sample that you're sure is the athlete’s and get the DNA there and then do the comparative work to see if there's any inconsistencies or mismatches or in two cases we discovered the female hockey player’s DNA didn't match what was in the bottles which was male DNA. So the DNA conclusively proved that the samples had been opened and tampered with and the contents were obviously swapped.

CO: You mentioned as well that there were the use of table salt and Nescafe instant coffee to affect samples. How are ingredients like those used?

RM: In the early days the B samples could not be opened and dealt with. So the B samples would be swapped. But in doing so they know that the B is a dirty sample. They need the A to look as close to the sample as possible in color. So if you add coffee grounds from time to time that can change the color. The salt was used to ensure that the specific gravity of the urine was somewhat close to the specific gravity of the original sample because that number is on the doping control form. So in some cases the opposite would be need to reduce the specific gravity dilute the sample with water to get the salt level down.

CO: How is it that the amount of doping and the covering up among the Russian athletes could be so extensive and go on for so long without it being detected by the IOC?

RM: Well, the IOC doesn't really have a lot to do with the doping control process. The only time that they conduct testing is during the Olympic Games and then the samples are analyzed by the lab at the Olympic Games. But the lab itself is accredited by WADA. So it's a combined effort of both organizations to operate the lab at the Olympic Games. And I don't think either of those organizations were looking for the possibility that samples could be swapped.

CO: Did you have any cooperation from Russian officials in the course of doing your investigation?

RM: We had cooperation from Russian officials, but not from Russian athletes.

CO: And what would you like to have known from the Russian athletes had you been able to speak with them?

RM: Well, I would have liked to have known what did you know about why you were providing clean urine samples? Did you knowingly participate in this scheme? Where you tricked into it? That sort of question. Because if they knowingly participated they are part of a conspiracy and they've committed doping infractions. Also I'd liked to have talked to them about what was going on why they were on the doping programs what programs they were on? We would have been able to cross check and corroborate some of that had we been able to talk to the athletes.

CO: And should we anticipate that there will be athletes who are banned from competition or athletes who be stripped of their medals?

RM: I would expect that to be the case, but we’ve provided all the information we have. The action has to be taken by both the international federations and their member organization with those particular sports. So it will be up to them to do the results management and then announce whatever they determine the sanctions ought to be; if they determine there should be in the sections, which I would expect them to.

CAROL OFF: All right we'll leave it there. Professor McLaren, thank you.

RICHARD McLaren: OK. Good to speak with you.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Richard McLaren is a Canadian professor who has published a new report on Russia's state-sponsored doping program. We reached him in London, England.

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Frozen embryos lawsuit

Guest: Brandy Zadrozny

JEEF DOUGLAS: Emma and Isabelle are suing their mom, Modern Family star Sofia Vergara. That is their potential future mom. The lawsuit claims that the actress is denying them their inheritance by not allowing them to be born. See Emma and Isabelle are frozen embryosm, created by Ms. Vergara and her ex Nick Loeb. It is just the latest chapter in the pair's battle over the future of these embryos. Brandy Zadrozny is a journalist with The Daily Beast and she has gone through all the court documents in this unprecedented case. We reached Ms. Zadrozny in Boston.

CAROL OFFL: Brandy, how can an embryo sue somebody?

BRANDY ZADROZNY: Only in America and specifically in Louisiana because of a law passed in 1986 that gives embryos the right of people, at least in the eyes of the law. So they can sue, they can be sued if people are disagreeing on what should be done with them then their best interests must be taken into account. They can’t be destroyed.

CO: They cannot be destroyed?

BZ: Nope.

CO: Because they're considered to be persons?

BZ: Right. So the whole law came about as a result of the rise of the test tube baby and concern about what will be done with these little sparks of life. And so it was a reaction to that and there was you know this was in the late 70’s there were a lot of questions revolving around what was going to happen these? Would they be thrown away would they be trashed like what would they be frozen and then you know experimented on. So this is a way for Louisiana to sort of say we respect life, but I don't think even the people that wrote the laws then could have foreseen what it would be used for today.

CO: There are court documents filed in Louisiana that name these embryos as Emma and Isabelle?

BZ: Right.

CO: Who named them? How do they have and identity and names and genders?

BZ: Well, I'm not sure who named them so there are a couple of possibilities. One is Sofia Vergara’s ex fiancé and two the other possibility are the people who are really behind this lawsuit. And one possibility is James Charbonneau who is the plaintiff who is this person with unknown ties to either Vergara or the embryos who set up a trust according to the documents that the embryos as people will be will be given an undisclosed amount of money. But this guy set up this trust and he's saying these embryos should be allowed to become people so that they get the money in this trust that he set up. The second person that it might that might be responsible for naming these embryos and making people out of these embryos is the lawyer who filed this lawsuit and she is sort of a rising star in the anti-abortion movement. She's a 35-year-old lawyer and she's really trying to make a name for herself. She writes really colorfully in right-wing publications and gives a lot of interviews. She's trying to become something of a star and I think that this might be the way that that happens.

CO: What role then are the two people who created the embryos playing in all of this? This is Sofia Vergara and her former mate I guess now Nick Loeb.

BZ: Yeah, Nick Loeb has not said anything about this. So it's not clear if he's involved. But the timing is very strange because the day after he asked the judge to dismiss his California claim he's been trying for years now — since 2013 — to make his ex-fiancé give him the embryos so he can implant them in a uterus of a surrogate and then parent them is what he'd like to do. She has been saying no they don't want to bring genetic children of mine and yours into the world after we've broken up. But he is not trying to hear that. So he's been trying for years to get them whether he will. It seems unlikely. American courts have generally said in disputes like this that the person who doesn't want to be a parent that right supersedes the right of someone who does want to be a parent. And it seems that there's a very small chance that this lawsuit in Louisiana will go anywhere. But it's not totally ruled out. I talked to several lawyers who said you know the world is a crazy place and Louisiana is crazy too. And you never really know what's going to happen. So she could lose and I guess the worst case scenario for her is that these two embryos would have a chance at implantation, a chance to become fetuses, a chance to become daughters and a chance to be born.

CO: And what about the mother? Would she have any rights if they were born? I mean Sofia Vergara being the mother?

BZ: Well, one of the requests in this lawsuit is to have her, they’re using child neglect laws to claim that she is neglecting and abandoning her children by keeping them as embryos. And so what they've asked is they've asked for her to be changed from a mother to egg donor.

CO: You looked through a lot of court documents and exchanges and e-mails and what can you characterize the conversation that is going on or anything between the parents of these embryos?

BZ: Right. Well. The people that have contributed to the genetic make-up of these embryos are it's not a friendly relationship they have now.

CO: And since, but since, there are maybe just two people who are the parents there are a lot of people who see, to be involved in this legally and in the lawsuit. Do you see this as a possible precedent setting case or something that others might do? Well not just in Louisiana but other states where laws seem to be evolving?

BZ: Yeah, I mean this is this is really interesting because they're part of the anti-abortion movement is deferring personhood on embryos and on fetuses. I think that should they find success with this lawsuit. You know one legal expert told me that the floodgates would open and I think that's right. I think that we see a lot more lawsuits being opened in Louisiana and a lot more of these laws trying to be put on the books in different states.

CAROL OFF: Brandy, thank you.

BRANDY ZADROZNY: Thank you so much for having me.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Brandy Zadrozny is a journalist with The Daily Beast. We reached her in Boston.

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Earth slowing

JEFF DOUGLAS: When we were kids oh we were fools. There was nothing more fun than spinning around and around and around until we were dizzy, smashing into stuff, falling down. It was easy. It was free. Satisfaction was guaranteed. As we get older though that spinning, it got to be a lot less fun didn't it? Primarily because of the nausea, so imagine what it's like for the earth? It has been spinning without cease for somewhere around four and a half billion years. It's only natural it should want to slow down a bit. And according to an exhaustive new study it has been doing that for a while now. In fact, it's actually been slowing down by 1.8 milliseconds every century since it started spinning. Which seems like not much, but it adds up to a lot. In fact, it adds up to seven hours over two and a half millennia or as L.A. Times science reporter Deborah Netburn puts it quote, “if humanity had been measuring time with an atomic clock that started running back in 700 B.C. today that clock would read 7 p.m. when the sun is directly overhead rather than noon.” Now scientists figured this out. They figured it out by painstakingly gathering astronomical records on lunar and solar eclipses going back to 720 B. C. they figured out where exactly those eclipses had taken place and then they figured out where those eclipses should have taken place if the Earth's spin hadn't slowed down. Now look, I don't know about you but my head spin has just accelerated and I apologize scientists. I apologize because you carefully studied the Babylonian clay tablets and ancient Greek documents and the artifacts from China, the Middle East, Medieval Europe and I know you did a lot of work. But all I understand for sure is that our days are getting longer, imperceptibly longer and the world slowing down. And as I say that seems fair. First you must be extremely dizzy and queasy by now. So go ahead and relax a little buddy. You deserve it.

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Part 2: Carbon climate proposal, Russia sanctions

Carbon climate proposal

Guest: Rob Russo

JEFF DOGLAS: There were big expectations heading into today's first ministers meetings in Ottawa. At the top of the agenda was nothing less than reversing Canada's contribution to climate change. But the Prime Minister went in having already promised to impose a minimum price on carbon and to Premier's — British Columbia's Christy Clark and Saskatchewan's Brad Wall — have made it clear that they have found Mr. Trudeau's approach, heavy-handed. Rob Russo has been watching it all. Rob is the managing editor of the CBC's Parliamentary Bureau. We reached him in Ottawa, earlier today.

CAROL OFF: Rob, is Prime Minister Trudeau anywhere close to getting what he wants of this conference?

ROB RUSSO: No probably a lot further away than he thought right now. If we could get a camera inside that room I wouldn't be surprised, Carol, if he had his elbows up on the table and his palms pressed up against his forehead as he was shaking his head.

CO: You're going to have to get those little tiny cameras that go into flies on the wall.

RR: (Laughing) we do, we have people in there telling us that this is not going at all the way the federal government would have scripted it.

CO: Well, to what degree is it going pear shaped then?

RR: Well, in the middle of this week they thought that they essentially had the agreement of all the provinces and territories save for Saskatchewan. Brad Wall had always made it clear that he was not going to sign on to this, that he was opposed to it and he made it clear this morning when he walked in he kind of lobbed in the little grenade before they walked into the room the little smoke stun grenade saying that he's going to take the feds to court on it if they insisted on doing this. The surprise was that by the end of the day it looked like he was not the only premier with serious misgivings about this. It now appears that B.C.’s concerns, which they've expressed in the past have now hardened into misgivings enough to prompt Christy Clarke, premier of British Columbia saying right now she couldn't sign on. And it appears that she has been joined by Manitoba's Brian Pallister as well. So now we have every Western Province safe for a lonely Rachel Notely from Alberta you know head of the oil patch in effect, as the only ones the only one saying that she's going to sign on to a carbon price and the other three in British Columbia, Manitoba and in Saskatchewan saying not right now. Although stay tuned Carol, call me back in an hour or so and I'll tell you if that's still the case because this has changed all day.

CO: When you're flies on the wall come out again. Now Christy Clark said that she was seen to be on side before. What is she now saying? She actually hasn't changed her tune has she? What is her problem?

RR: Well, it's one of yardsticks. And here's what she's saying right now. B.C. is already paying —people in British Columbia — are already paying about $30 a ton in a carbon tax. That's about seven cents or so on a liter of gasoline. Alberta is supposed to reach that level in 2018 and they're saying that Ontario and Quebec, which is not going with a carbon tax, but with a cap and trade system would only be paying a little bit more than half that about $19 a ton for carbon by the time 2020 gets around. And so what Christy Clark's argument is essentially right now is why should somebody in Mission, B.C. pay more than somebody in Mississauga, Ontario? Why are they going to pay more in Lethbridge than they're going to pay in Laval, Quebec? And there's a real cost to that if that happens. As we all know business will go to wherever it's cheaper for business to operate. And if it's cheaper for them to operate in Ontario and Quebec that's where they'll go and that's the concern that there'll be a corporate drain eastwards.

CO: And Brad Wall, He's also adding to this that he hasn't seen the numbers he says that they there's been no good data provided they don't know what it's going to cost Canadians and Saskatchewan's to actually have a carbon tax. Does he have a point?

RR: I don't think anybody knows the exact extent, but what Brad Wall is not saying is that no matter what money is collected, no matter what the tax is he would take the dough if it's collected. The feds are saying they're not going to keep it they're just going to turn around and give it to Brad Wall. So he — the premier of Saskatchewan — will be going to court to prevent that money from going to the province of Saskatchewan in part. But will this have a disproportionate effect on provinces that have a carbon tax? Absolutely! As it stands right now, it looks like those who go for cap and trade are going to be favored by the system unless some sort of equivalency or yardstick can be measured to identify that and then what do you do once that's identified? There there's the rub as well. How do you compensate those who might be paying more? It's a tricky business.

CO: Now here we have in Ottawa a bunch of premiers and the prime minister banging heads together trying to make a climate change strategy in Canada while in Washington, we will soon see an administration that questions whether climate change even exists. So is that an issue? Is that in the back of anyone's minds as they negotiate this?

RR: It’s sure in the back of Brad Wall’s mind and it's in the back of other people's mind as well. This was not supposed to play out this way when the Trudeau government came up with this scheme and started putting months and months and months of sweat equity into it. Everybody expected that Hillary Clinton was going to be the president of the United States and if there wasn't going to be a carbon tax nobody expected that. There would be similar regulations in the United States that would see no country in North America have an advantage. Right now — as it stands now — if a carbon tax were opposed in Canada there would be that that dissonance between Canada and the United States. I cannot see and nobody can foresee any circumstances that would see Donald Trump, he from the drill baby drill school impose something similar to a carbon tax in Canada. So you'd see that sucking sound of the corporate money going southwards.

CO: Just very quickly, does Mr. Trudeau have the tools he needs to get them onside?

RR: It's going to be really difficult. I think right now Justin Trudeau is learning why it took his dad and his predecessors 30 years to come up with a constitutional deal. He's trying to do it in three or four hours this afternoon and he's learning how tough that really is going to be.

CAROL OFF: Rob, thank you.

ROB RUSSO: My pleasure, Carol.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Rob Russo is the managing editor of the CBC's Parliamentary Bureau. We reached him in Ottawa, earlier today.

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Longest word

JEEF DOUGLAS: Interesting point if you say a word is “autological”, you mean then that that word has the properties it denotes that it describes itself. For example, the word “short” is short. The word “finite” ends. The word “noun” is a noun. The word “Polysyllabic” What? No Kevin, No no no I am providing context — fascinating context — I might add for… OK fine, fine, I will skip the rest of the examples. Sorry everyone, for some reason my director, Kevin Ball, thinks that I am stalling and I am not. I'm just explaining the word “autological”. Austrian academics have just chosen their “word of the year” for 2016. And no it is not exactly autological, but it does have many of the same qualities as the thing it describes. It is so long, it seems like it will never end. It is unnecessarily complicated and until it's over you're never really sure how it's going to turn out. In English this word translates roughly to “Federal-President-runoff-vote-repeat-postponement”. And it refers to Austria's extremely difficult seven month long rollercoaster process of electing a president this year. Sidebar, interesting. Austria's parliament is divided into two houses: The Federal Council and the National Council, which sound redundant, but they're not. The National Council is a. (Shouting) Kevin, I'm getting to it! I am getting to it! So here is your precious word of the year as selected by Austrian academics. It is a German word — a compound German word actually — like “kummerspeck”, which means “grief bacon”, which refers to the weight you put on when you eat because you're sad and I think… (Shouting) Yes Kevin! OK OK OK! Here is the word of the year. “Bundesprasidentenstichwahlwiederholungsverschiebung”. See it's kind of odd autological. It's like the Austrian election it describes: it was long and terrible and we're all relieved it's over.

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Russia sanctions

Guest: Helene Laverdiere

JEFF DOUGLAS: Tonight Russia is threatening to strike back at Canada. The angry words follow Ottawa’s decision to add to a list of individuals who cannot do business here because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. And that list now includes politicians and associates of Vladimir Putin's. But there are two names missing. Names the Liberals had promised to add when they were in opposition. Names that are high up on the U.S. sanctions list and that concerns the NDP’s Global Affairs Critic Helene Laverdiere. We reached Ms. Laverdiere in Montreal.

CAROL OFF: Ms. Laverdiere, who are these men who you think should have been added to the sanctions list?

HELENE LAVERDIERE: Well, I'm thinking in particular of Vladimir Yakunin and Igor Sechin, they were not put on the list under the Conservatives and at the time we asked that they be put on the list. The Liberals seemed to agree. But now they seem to have moved back and still don't put these two persons on the list while they are on the American list.

CO: Can we ask you first of all, Vladimir Yakunin. Tell us who he is?

HL: Oh he is the head of the Russian Railways and he has businesses dealing with the SNC- Lavalin and Bombardier. Now we don't want to hurt Canadian companies, of course, but if sanctions are to work we have to be in step. For example, how we deal with sanctions or otherwise the people that are being sanctioned what they cannot do in one country just come and do in the other country.

CO: And the other man, Igor Sechin, tell us about him?

HL: Oh he is the head of a company called Rosneft, he is in the oil industry in particular. Both are among the elite close to Vladimir Putin. Mr. Rosneft has 30 per cent share in the oil field in Alberta, but it sure that sanctions are never taken lightly or easily. It's sure that sometimes that can hurt. But you know if you sanction only the people that have no relationship with Canada then it's useless.

CO: So there are 15 people on the new sanctions list by the Liberal federal government. Why do you think these two were not put on it?

HL: Well, that's a question I've been asking myself for years now. They are close to the power and when you put sanctions in you have to hit — if I may use that expression — the closest you can to the power you want to influence or change the behavior.

CO: We just spoke this week with Garry Kasparov, who's the Russian dissidents who he was in Ottawa this week demanding that Ottawa get more aggressive with sanctions and support was called the Magnitsky Act. Do you think that Ottawa should sign on — the federal government — should sign on to that piece of legislation?

HL: Well, the Foreign Affairs Committee right now is looking at adopting here again positions that are quite similar to the U.S. position. The U.S. right now is considering adopting what's called the Global Magnitsky Act, which is certainly an improvement because it aims at targeting human rights abusers everywhere and not only in specific countries. But the more the committee is studying this issue the more we realize that already though that we have sometimes seem not to be fully implemented for lack of resources either at a Global Affairs Canada or at the RCMP.

CO: But it seems that Russia is responding quite aggressively and angrily to Ottawa's announcement of these 15 individuals. The reaction was that this is a quote, “these irresponsible actions by Ottawa will hinder the possible normalization of relations between Canada and Russia.” So it seems that they must have been aggressive enough that it has angered the Kremlin, so doesn't that indicate that Canada is on the right track?

HL: Indeed the fact that the Kremlin is upset shows that there is a point to those sanctions. But we need also to make sure that we are able to implement those sanctions without putting undue burden on our Canadian businesses.

CO: Well, that's the point isn't it because how do you find a balance between putting sanctions on putting pressure on Russia and not harming Canadian business interests? I mean Bombardier has come to Ottawa needing help; it's got thousands of employees whose jobs are at risk and the same thing with the oil interests. These are two major investments. How do you find the balance between Canadian interests and the sanctions?

HL: I think that most businesses understand the importance of sanctions, are willing to respect sanctions. Understand also that when we are talking of for example, the stability of the world will the stability of the world serve Canadian businesses?

CO: you say that we need to be in lockstep with the Obama administration about their own sanctions. We're about to see a new government. And Mr. Trump has made it clear he wants to open relations with Vladimir Putin. How is Canada’s sanctions regime and its approach to Russia likely to change when the U.S. changes?

HL: well, we’ll have to see. I really don't want to speculate because Mr. Trump is rather unpredictable. If there's a drastic change between the relation with U.S. and Canada then it's not only the sanctions regime. It will be the geopolitical framework that will be redefined. But for the moment it's difficult to comment.

CAROL OFF: We'll leave it there. Ms. Laverdiere, thank you.

HELENE LAVERDIERE: Thank you to you.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Helene Laverdiere is the NDP Global Affairs Critic. We reached her in Montreal.

[Music: Ambient]

From our archives: topless mud wrestling

JEFF DOUGLAS: You know sometimes when we go through the trap door and down that windy staircase into the dank As It Happens archives, we come up covered with cobwebs and filthy and clutching something we absolutely did not go down there looking for. And that happened this morning. We went down trying to dig up an old piece of audio for a story on Canadian politics that we were working on, but we found an old interview that was summed up like this. “Topless mud wrestler Crazy Paddy is interviewed from Casselberry, Florida about her job.” How do you resist that? The date was January 30^th, 1976. Here from our archives, Crazy Patty along with former As it Happens hosts Barbara Frum and John O'Leary.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Theme]

JOHN O’LEARY: Casselberry, Florida is the home of a new sport. Although it's a bit early to tell whether it's just a local fad or as simply a filthy exhibition, the fans love it. It's female topless mud wrestling. As you can imagine it's a gooey, oozy, messy affair and not only for the lady rustlers but also for all the referees and the fans, who were supplied with raincoats for ringside. All of the ladies have stage names. Vicious Vicky, Bourbon Street Fox and the one who's on the line now from Casselberry, Florida: Crazy Patty.

BARBRA FRUM: what name should I use to talk to you?

CRAZY PATTY I'm Crazy Patty.

BF: OK Crazy, how long have you been mud wrestling?

CP: I was the first one to get in to it and it's been about three and a half months.

BF: What's the secret to winning in mud wrestling? What do you have to do to win?

CP: To win the first thing to learn is to learn how to fall. How to pace yourself because the mud is very heavy and it's cold and It's slippery. There's a lot of differences between wrestling in mud and just wrestling regularly.

BF: Is it sensual to do? Does it turn you on?

CP: It doesn't turn me off. I don’t know that it turns me on. You get so dirty and you get it in your ears and your eyes I don’t think — no I wouldn’t call it a turn on for me. It turns some of the audience on.

BF: Why does it, do you think?

CP: Men I don't know why, but it seems that men have been fascinated by women fighting.

BF: You use topless ladies, I understand?

CP: Yes ma'am.

BF: Maybe that's what the men turn out for?

CP: Could be, when you get you know covered in the mud it looks like you're naked because you’re all one color anyway. It's hard to see your bottom because we wear G-strings, which are small.

BF: How does the match start? When you come out are you kind of stunning?

CP: Oh yeah, we come in all kind of crazy costumes the one week I come out with a Las Vegas with the ostrich feathers and a long pink flowing gown. And I opened up my gown and I've hair glued all over my chest.

BF: (Gasps) when you step into the ring are you deep into the mud? Is it up to your ankles or where?

CP: It’s six to eight inches deep.

BF: And then how does the match begin?

CP: Well, once we go in and he explains we are not we're not allowed to choke or push a girl’s face down into the mud and hold it so that they could drown.

BF: How about mud throwing?

CP: Oh we throw mud, yeah.

BF: At the audience?

CP: It has happened if someone haggles. The mud splashes on the audience.

BF: Serves them right.

CP: (Laughing).

BF: Have you ever had a man want to jump in the ring and join you?

CP: Yesum.

BF: What happened?

CP: We had a man in one town, he only lasted one half round wrestling two girls and he conceded.

BF: What did you do to him?

CP: Tore his clothes off.

BF: Have any women in the audience joined in?

CP: We’ve had a couple, yeah. One woman got mad because the mud got splashed into her drink or something. She started mouthing off at one of the girls and she was sitting right at ring side. And they kept on and on and the girl says. “You want to come in the mud?” and she said “yes.” So the girl reached out and pulled her in.

BF: What happened to her hairdo?

CP: Her hairdo? Oh it was gone. There was nothing left of her hairdo.

BARBRA FRUM: Thanks a lot.

CRAZY PATTY: Thank you.

BARBRA FRUM: Fun to talk to you.

CRAZY PATTY: Thank you dear.

JOHN O’LEARY: Crazy Patty spoke to us from Casselberry, Florida.

JEFF DOUGLAS: What a find! From our archives an interview that we stumbled across earlier today, Crazy Patti speaking with former As It Happens host Barbara Frum, January, 1976.

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Part 3: Irwin Cotler on Syria ceasefire, Nigerian bobsledder

From our archives: Phillip Knightley

JEFF DOUGLAS: This week the world lost one of its great and most stubborn investigative journalists. Phillip Knightley, an Australian-born reporter who worked for years for London's Sunday Times died, he was 87-years-old. Mr. Knightley was not only relentless. He was patient. He spent 20 years corresponding with Kim Philby, an MI6 double agent who betrayed Britain at the height of the Cold War and fled to Moscow. Mr. Knightley also spent three years investigating thalidomide, the morning sickness drug that cause birth defects in more than 8000 children. His investigation led the drug company to compensate thousands of people. Mr Knightley was a frequent guest on this program over the years, usually on the topic of espionage. Here he is speaking to former host Michael Enright in 1990 just as the CIA was ramping up its spy efforts in the Persian Gulf War.

SOUNDCLIP

PHILLIP KNIGHTLEY: All the intelligence agencies around the world are falling on their knees today and thanking Saddam Hussein for saving their jobs, their pensions and their expense accounts.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Does that mean that indeed people of the CIA or MI6 or whatever who are worried about budget cuts can in fact breathe a little easier?

PK: Oh yes, indeed so. I mean take the CIA for example, the CIA has been looking for a role ever since they arrived and was considering such things as the drug business. Let us lose on the drug barons and we will win the drugs war. Many of those that tried treaded on the toes of the Drug Enforcement Agency who didn't like the idea of the CIA stepping in there. Then they were considering economic intelligence. Because if you've been in covert action on the exciting side — the action side of espionage — then economic intelligence sounds rather boring. The CIA director Mr. Webster said trying to make it sound a little sexy, “throughout the next decade will continue to see an increased emphasis on economic competitiveness as an intelligence issue.” So compared with that then the excitement in the Middle East must be making a CIA agents around the world jump up and down for joy.

ME: But what role would they have? What role would the CIA and other spy agencies have in the current Gulf Crisis?

PK: Well, I think probably a very active one, we know that President Bush has already told the CIA that do everything possible to destabilize Saddam Hussein's regime. And I think at this moment in Langley the lights are burning late and consider the ways in which it might go about these stabilizing that regime?

ME: Mr. Knightley in the 40 years of the Cold War the Americans and Soviets knew a lot about each other. Do current intelligence agencies know anything at all about Arabs and the Middle East?

PK: Well, I think that what we will see if such an operation to destabilize the regime is already under way. Is the unlikely or at once what was once considered unlikely combination of the CIA the KGB and the British Secret Service all working hand-in-glove with the same aim in mind.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: The British I guess have the corner on Arab intelligence Arab speakers and that kind of thing?

PHILLIP KNIGHTLEY: Yes, I mean I think since Lawrence of Arabia was so successful in the First World War then from then Britain has felt that it has been one can read the mind as well as an Englishman I think is the feeling.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Philip Knightley speaking to former As It Happens host Michael Enright back in 1990. Mr Knightley died this week, he was 87-years-old.

[Music: Ambient]

Irwin Cotler on Syria cease fire

Guest: Irwin Cotler

JEFF DOUGLAS: As you heard at the top of the program this evening, the forces of Bashar al-Assad continue their offensive on Aleppo today and that assault flies in the face of the latest round of diplomatic pressure on both President Assad and his Russian backers. On Wednesday, Canada and five other western powers issued a joint statement demanding an immediate cease fire. Irwin Cotler however, thinks they should be delivering more than words. We reached the formal Liberal Justice Minister on a train outside Ottawa.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Cotler, Canada and its partners in this joint statement are calling for a cease fire to get aid into Aleppo. What should they be calling for?

IRWIN COTLER: Well, I think at this point this is not yet another statement of its kind. This is the most ugly situation in Syria or anywhere since the end of the Second World War. We've been witnessing war crimes and crimes against humanity daily since the Syrian regime began its scorched earth policy some five and a half years ago. Indeed five years ago I wrote the first of a number of op-eds in which I said the situation where war crimes and crimes against humanity are being committed and the country in which they are being committed is unable, unwilling to do anything about or worse as in the case of Syria is the author of those crime then there's a responsibility of the international community to intervene and protect the innocent civilians. Those of us with culture R2P to be implemented and we're told you know if we move to do that this will lead to sectarian warfare. This will lead to civil war. This will lead to jihadists coming in. Everything you are told will happen if we intervene happened because we didn't intervene and we see now the consequences of indifference and inaction in the face of mass atrocities.

CO: When you refer to R2P it is a “Responsibility to Protect” it's a doctrine that Canada championed at the United Nations and the idea was that when there was aggression against the civilian population the world had a responsibility to intervene. That's what you're talking about?

IC: That is correct. And that was adopted in 2005 with Canada's leadership at the time.

CO: In this joint statement from Canada, France, Germany, Italy, the U.K. and the United States the very first line of the statement describes it as a humanitarian disaster taking place. Why do you think they use that language?

IC: Well, it certainly is a humanitarian disaster but it is much more than that. There is mass atrocities being committed with impunity. There are war crimes and crimes against humanity that and are being committed daily. I think if you use humanitarian disaster this may not appear to trigger the “Responsibility to Protect” doctrine which requires war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing or genocide taking place that trigger that R2P. But it does not reference the international criminality in all its horror though it does at least mention the humanitarian compelling needs. But frankly, what we are talking about and what we have been witness to now day-after-day five and a half years now is untold horror and ongoing mass atrocity and international criminality and impunity.

CO: Do you think part of the reason of putting out a statement like this is to I guess give the appearance of acting. That if in the face of not wanting to intervene in this aggression towards civilians that by putting out a statement demanding that there be a cease fire allowing for aid that it gives the gives the appearance or the illusion of doing something?

IC: Well, I think they have good intentions and good faith. But at this point you know a series of statements of that kind. What we need is action. Now I know there is a call for a cease fire and I know there is the compelling need for humanitarian assistance. But we have to speak in much more compelling and urgent language supported by necessary action in that regard. And I suspect that because Russia, which at one time was only five years ago supplying arms. But is now not just an enabler of the international criminality. In fact, is complicit in that international criminality and because Russia wants to maintain the Assad regime. I guess the statement is treading more warily than it might otherwise do if it did not have the situation of a superpower like Russia both vetoing any Security Council action and whose compliance are necessary for any action at all. But we can move forward to uniting for peace resolution through the General Assembly through the costs of all precedent. But the horrors have to be addressed and redressed with all deliberate urgency.

CO: And does that mean a military intervention?

IC: Well, it may mean in that sense you know the setting up of protective corridors to provide humanitarian relief and maybe defensive and no fly zones. It may be putting on notice the Syrian regime that they cannot continue their bombing with impunity. At a certain point, you know, we can't just as I say be an international bystander really. We have to be an interventionist committee to take — if necessary — certain defensive military measures to save the people in Aleppo and in Syria.

CAROL OFF: We’ll leave it there. Mr. Cotler, thank you.

IRWIN COTLER: Good speaking with you.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Irwin Cotler is the Chair of the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights, also a former Liberal Justice Minister. We reached him earlier this week on a train outside Ottawa. And today the United Nations General Assembly passed a Canadian-drafted resolution demanding an immediate cease fire in Syria.

[Music: Piano]

1000 KM grocery run

JEFF DOUGLAWS: Leona Kraus is prepared to go the distance to put her money where her mouth is, for the mother of five from Fort Simpson, Northwest Territories. That means making a thousand kilometer road trip to Fort Nelson, B.C. and back to get groceries. Ms. Kraus says it is cheaper for her to make that long trek south once or twice a year than it is to buy the same amount of goods at the local Northern store. And she shared with the CBC's Alex Brockman some of the purchases she will be making for the coming holidays.

SOUNDCLIP

LEONA KRAUS: Hopefully a couple of turkeys. Pre-ordered my full-sized family roast for my son's third birthday next week and it cost me less than a hundred bucks. If you walk into the grocery store with three carts for the amount of groceries that you would pay here it's a basic need that we have to do with. Otherwise we are stuck paying double the price at the Northern. We went and bought potatoes at work today and a 10 pound bag was $15.99. My sister went shopping on Friday she spent over for $400 and she only had four bags or five bags and that was it. And when I go to Nelson I can spend over $600 and I leave the store with almost three carts, two carts. And is this the same thing like if you go to Hay River and Hay River is just four hours and it is the same amount of time as driving to Yellowknife. Driving to Yellowknife from Fort Simpson is six hours. Doesn’t really make a difference, it is just time consuming because of the drive. It’ll be long and tiring; this time we won't have our kids, so we'll be able to have more room for fresh produce and stuff that we normally wouldn't be able to bring back because we have all our kids right? And in the wintertime it’s not like you can leave it in the truck or it's in the back because it will freeze. This trip my kids won’t be with us so we get to bring all the fresh produce and stuff like that back with us.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Leona Kraus from Fort Simpson, Northwest Territories explaining to the CBC's Alex Brockman why she is making a thousand kilometer road trip to Fort Nelson B.C. to buy groceries.

[Music: Electronica]

Warren Allmand obit

JEFF DOUGLAS: Warren Allmand will be remembered as the longstanding Liberal Member of Parliament for the Montreal riding of Notre-Dame-de-Grace. He will be remembered as the Minister for Indian Northern Affairs and as the Minister for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. He will be remembered; for his activism for his work heading several human rights organizations after retiring from federal politics in the mid 90’s. And he will be remembered for bringing the same fierce resolve to municipal politics after returning to the fray in 2005 as a Montreal city councilor Warren Allmand died Wednesday. He was 84-years-old. Mr. Allmand will also be remembered for achievements and actions not listable on a resume. Colleagues describe him as quote, “a man of incredible integrity, someone who believed in effecting social change through speaking self-evident truth and as someone who quote deeply believed in democracy just ready to fight all the time.” And that included fighting his own party if he disagreed with it. In 1995 he was sacked as Chair of the Commons Justice Committee for voting against the government's budget. Later he was equally outspoken on city council often criticizing the mayor and voting against his Union Montreal Party. But Mr. Warren will likely be best remembered for his turn as federal Solicitor General and in particular for tabling a bill that changed the course of Canadian history. Bill C-84 passed by a very narrow margin in 1976. One of the narrowest votes ever in parliament, but it's passing in July of that year marked the end of capital punishment in Canada. Earlier that year Mr. Allmand spoke with As It Happens host Barbara Frum about his hopes for the bill. Here's some of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

WARREN ALLMAND: I want to accomplish a very difficult task that is to protect the public and abolish capital punishment. But I've got to sort of almost negotiate with Parliament to have them pass the bill and as a result I'm going to have to provide for minimum periods in prison, which I might not otherwise like.

BARBRA FRUM: Does that mean that under your new bill life imprisonment is going to mean something more closely approximating life imprisonment?

WA: Oh no it won't, I refuse to go that far. But this business of the 10 to 20 years may be put on a wider basis, but I can't get into those details with you now. But that gives you the general idea of the type of difficulty I'm faced with.

BF: What about parole?

WA: Well, parole will still be available. I would reject as a matter of principle anybody would suggest that a life sentence should be a life sentence with no chance for parole. Not only is that a very inhumane thing, but secondly it provides a control problem for those people who must run the penitentiary. The fact that there is parole give hope to people in prison. But if you have no hope whatsoever you will see a greater incidence of escape, violence, of hostage taking, suicide and so on within the prison.

BF: A lot of people think that politicians finally are practical men. Why does this issue get to you so much?

WA: Well, to me the ultimate value in this world is a person's life. And for the state to deliberately take any life to me is just unthinkable. I'm appalled by cruelty and murder, but I just could not visualize a civilized state deliberately deciding they're going to put a man to death. It's really it's really goofing off on the problem. It's sort of burying the problem under the rug if we have that kind of problem we should try and get to the bottom of it and solve it. You don't solve it by hanging people or by executing them.

BARBRA FRUM: And your threat to resign if the bill doesn't pass. Does that still stand?

WARREN ALLMAND: I said that I would not be associated in any way with a hanging candidate if the parliament didn't pass the bill. I would not in any way associate myself with a hanging and I don't know if that's some cases that might mean resigning. But in other cases I don't know. I don't know what all the alternatives are, but I wouldn't be with a group that would condone the hanging or I wouldn't I wouldn't in any way put my signature or my approval to it.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Former federal Solicitor General Warren Allmand speaking with As It Happens host Barbara Frum on January 30th of 1976, just months before the death penalty was abolished here. Warren Allmand died Wednesday. He was 84-years-old.

[Music: Piano]

Nigerian bobsledder

Guest: Seun Adigun

JEFF DOUGLAS: Nigeria does not have snow, but it does have a bobsled team. And in 2018 three women hope to become that country's first ever representatives at a Winter Olympics. First, of course, they will need to qualify. And given that they didn't start training in the sport until last year they've got their work cut out for them. And that work begins in international competitions this winter. The team’s Chicago-born driver is Seun Adigun. We reached her in Houston.

CAROL OFF: Seun, how did people in Nigeria respond when you told them that you thought the country needed a good bobsled team?

SEUN ADIGUN: Honestly they responded very well and they were all in support. Everybody was excited about the idea of the opportunity to make history, the opportunity to really put something positive behind Nigerian's name and kind of pioneer this winter bobsled thing for that continent of Africa.

CO; Now I've never been to Nigeria, but the word tropical comes to mind so of all the sports in the world why bobsledding?

SA: Well, really because of that very reason because it's a tropical Sub-Saharan country. Most people don't attribute any type of activities for snow or any type of winter anything to the country. So it was more for the empowerment to let people know it's OK to think out of the box it's OK to be a part of something different and try going down an ice mountain 80 miles an hour.

CO: What was it like the first time you did it?

SA: Oh my goodness. To be honest, the first time I did it I was a brakeman, which is the person that actually sits in the back of the bobsled. And so the ride is a way whereas I think for brakesmen than it is for a driver. So it was kind of rough back there I must say, but after I was done and I kind of sat down and gathered my life together I was like you know what? I think I can get back in there and do it again.

CO: And so now just to back up a bit about your own career in competitive sports you competed in the Olympics for Nigeria in track and field is that right?

SA: That's correct yes. In the 2012 London Olympic Games.

CO: And so why did the transition to bobsledding?

SA: Honestly it started off as a personal thing where I think I just wanted to redeem myself on the Olympic stage primarily because I just didn't do so well at the 2012 games due to a stress fracture that I had in my left tibia on my shin. I knew several people who had transitioned from track over to the winter sports and bobsled. So I just started looking into it and I looked and I said you know I think I can try this.

CO: Now you are unlike most Nigerians you are very familiar with cold and snow because you were born in Chicago, is that right?

SA: That is correct. I was born in Chicago.

CO: And how have you come to be part of Nigerian sport?

SA: So both of my parents are born raised Nigerian. And because of that I am also a dual citizen of Nigeria. So I went back and forth to Nigeria as a kid a couple of times and basically grew up in Nigerian culture. And so although born in America and representing what it means to be an American, I still am also in every bit of the word a Nigerian and representing that as well.

CO: There's a photo of you and your team and your and your breakwomen for your go fund me page and you're looking very bad-ass. I wouldn't compete with you guys you look very tough, but I wouldn't get into a bobsled to begin with. But how difficult has it been to raise the money you need in order to do this?

SA: It has been the most positive and amazing thing that I think I could have ever dreamed of. We've already raised over $8,000 the money that we're raising as we're going is everything that we need to make our different milestones along the way to that $150,000 goal at the Olympic Games.

CO: I understand you built your own bobsled in your garage?

SA: I did, last season when I found out that I made the USA bobsled team I had to come back to Houston, Texas. I knew that if I didn't have something down in the warm weather that I could use to help me stay in the mix I was going to be in trouble. So when I got back I went to a hardware store got up a whole bunch of wood and basically thought about the shapes and angle that would be adequate for me to get what I needed to get done and got a hammer in and saw in and started drilling things together.

CO: And are you still using it?

SA: Yes actually the Mayflower as I like to call her. And it's not in every literal word of a bobsled, but it's more than just kind of like a box of boxed wood that does the job you know they're able to add weight to it and push it. And that's really what it's all about. And myself and the ladies we got together and we did another revision to it as well as built some individual smaller push carts we like to call them. They're going to name them individually, but we've built those for them to work on when we're not together or just because it's easier for them to have that and it gets the same thing done for what a brakeman needs to do.

CO: Now as you know your team is compared has been compared to that wonderful Jamaican bobsled team that competed in Calgary. There's a movie Cool Runnings me about them. Were they an inspiration to you that team

SA: Loved the movie! Can still quote it to this day and the comparison to be honest, we're seeing it as an honor. Because if we can still talk about something that they did so powerful 30 years ago and it really be just as relevant today as it was the day that it happened. That's what I and the rest of the ladies I mean we are considering as a legacy because if it weren't for them in what 1988 doing that. Who knows if people would really be able to respond the way they've been responding to us doing the sport now? They are actually still a very active team and I'm super excited to know all of them. So it is truly an honor.

CO: We will be watching. I hope to see you in South Korea with your bobsled team. And Seun, it's been great to speak with you. Thank you.

SA: Thank you so much and God bless all of you and keep us in your prayers.

CAROL OFF All right, we'll see you in Whistler.

SEUN ADIGUN: Thank you. Bye now.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Seun Adigun is the driver of the Nigerian women's bobsled team. We reached her in Houston.

[Music: Ambient]

KD campaign

JEFF DOUGLAS: We have all of us little things that drive us mad. Some of us shake them off and move on. Some of us do not, cannot. Glen Pancyr of Saskatoon falls into the second category. He loves Kraft Dinner, he loves it. What irks him are the boxes that hold his KD. Why. He wonders why must he always use a knife to open the perforated tab even though it states clearly on the side. Press in, tear top off. So Mr. Pancyr has been contacting the Kraft Heinz Company looking for an answer. He told CBC's Go Public about his quest.

SOUNDCLIP

GLEN PANCYR: Well, the first time I wrote they said we'll take it up with production and the second time I wrote they said they'd give me a $2 coupon and I wrote back and said you know you can keep the coupon. Either take the label off the box because it gives us false hope that we can actually open it with our thumbs or perforate the opening so we can actually get it open. And I got no response. I phoned their 1-800 number and I think I've got someone who works in the United States. He wasn't aware of Kraft Dinner as a product and so we had a chat. And he said he would go out and buy some and check it out. But I never got a call back. I eat a lot of Kraft Dinner. In fact my wife tells this story that when she was dating we came home with me and I asked if she wanted some Kraft Dinner and she said yes and I said OK we'll I'll open another box for you. I’m just trying to make the world a better place by taking on the big corporation because I'm thinking how many people have stabbed themselves trying to get this box open. What about all the gel nails that have been lost? How can a company show such disdain for their customers by not just proofreading the tab?

JEFF DOUGLAS: Glen Pancyr speaking about his attempt to get new and improved perforations on Kraft Dinner boxes. A representative for Kraft Heinz told the CBC quote, “our packaging is made with everyone's health and safety in mind. And so the perforations are designed not to open too easily and spoil the meal before you are ready to enjoy it.” What say you? Our Talk Back line is always open 416-205-5687. So is Twitter @cbcasithappens. Or e-mail us aih@cbc.ca.

[Music: Jazz]

JEFF DUGLAS: That is it for As It Happens for this Friday, December 9th.

CAROL OFF: This show is produced this week by: Jean Armstrong, Imogene Birchard, Sam Colbert, Katie Geleff, Josh Flear, Chris Harbord, John McGill, Samantha Lui, Arielle Pait-Sauve, Kevin Robertson and Kate Swoger.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Our technician is Reynold Gonsalves. Show director Kevin Ball. Chris Howden is our writer.

CAROL OFF: John Perry is the Senior Producer and the Executive Producer of As It Happens is Robin Smythe.

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Dec. 9, 2016 episode transcript

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