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The AIH Transcript for December 8, 2016

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CO: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JD: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: For staying in one spot, she's going on the ten-spot. 70 years ago, Viola Desmond refused to leave the whites-only part of a Nova Scotia cinema – and now she'll be the first Canadian woman to appear on the front of a bank note.

JD: It's called the Berkeley Pit – but to birds, it's "Never, Never Land." Thousands of snow geese are dead after choosing the wrong place to touch down: a toxic lake at a former Montana mine.

CO: From one fragile state to another. The B.C. government took their children because their son had unexplained broken bones – but now that their kids are coming back, they'll need to get a real diagnosis.

JD: Bitter bill to swallow. Ottawa wants to close a loophole that lets some doctors pay a little less tax – but a Toronto heart specialist says that legislation will end up costing all of us.

CO: Out of the loop. A Liberal MP rises in the House of Commons, only to be told he's lowering its standards – and is ordered to stop talking because he's not wearing a necktie.

JD: And...tech the halls. All your favourite Christmas carols are obsolete, now that computer scientists have created a truly stirring one using artificial intelligence – a song that will make you think, and make almost no sense.
As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that pulls out the winter reboots.

[Music]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Viola Desmond bill, BC family, AI Christmas tune

Viola Desmond bill

Guest: Wanda Robson

JD: It has been a surreal day for Wanda Robson.
The 89-year-old from North Sydney, Nova Scotia found herself sitting at a news conference in Ottawa, unable to wipe the smile from her face. The Bank of Canada had just announced that Ms. Robson's late sister, Viola Desmond, would be featured on the ten-dollar Canadian bank note.
Ms. Robson remembers that fateful day, 70 years ago, when her sister Viola was arrested, jailed, and fined in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia – after she refused to leave a section in a movie theatre reserved for whites. We reached Ms. Robson earlier today in Ottawa.

CO: Ms. Robson, has the news sunk in yet that your sister's face will be on a $10 bill?

WANDA ROBSON: Just about. It has, yes. It has.

CO: And how are you feeling about that?

WR: I'm feeling so proud, so excited and proud. I want to open a window and tell everybody.

CO: Well I don't think you have to. I think you are telling everybody and your sister is. Can you just take us back? This is 70 years ago that your sister Viola was arrested and thrown into jail for refusing to leave the whites only section of a movie theater in Nova Scotia. What do you remember about that day?

WR: You know it was unbelievable. She had been arrested. And of course, I was a teenager then and I thought… arrested? And she wait to jail. Jail? My sister? She must have done something wrong. Oh Lord, I don't know if I can face people again. You know, I went happened from ‘what happened?’ to ‘me.’ Me me. Very very selfish. But when it did finally sink in what she had done and what had happened, I could hardly believe that she'd been arrested for sitting in a certain part of the theatre.

CO: Did it surprise you that your sister would do that? That she would defy the authorities?

WR: Not in the least. Not in the least. It wasn't that she was the type of person looking for, you know, anything… ‘Oh well I'm looking for a fight, I'm looking for something to be confrontational about.’ Nothing like that. But she didn't let things lie. She was always the type of person that investigated what went on and what happened and she was… I don’t want to use the word feisty she wasn’t that. But she was polite and dignified.

CO: What was she actually charged with? What were the charges against her?

WR: Trying to defraud the Nova Scotia government of the grand sum of one penny, the difference in the tax price of sitting upstairs and downstairs.

CO: And upstairs was where, in this theatre, where black people were supposed to go. And downstairs was where white people would go.

WR: That's exactly right.

CO: And it was one penny more to be downstairs. And your sister, did she have a ticket to be downstairs?

WR: No, no she did not. She asked the cashier for a ticket downstairs please. Then the girl gave her a ticket for upstairs, and Viola went in on the lower area, sat down. She just sat down and the usher said to her you know you can’t sit here. Well why can’t I? I you have an upstairs ticket. Viola said, well not to worry, I’ll just go and pay the difference. Go to the cashier So was he said Oh well not to worry I'll just go and pay the difference get it go to the cashier which she did. The cashier looked at her and said we're not allowed to sell downstairs tickets to you people.

CO: To you people as in black people.

WR: Yeah. And what did she do? She said to the cashier, I didn't see any signs that said, you know, black people upstairs and white people down. But she said, well here's the difference of the price of the ticket that I owe you, and I have to sit in the lower seats because I always do when I’m in Halifax, she said. And I’d like close to the screen because my eyesight is not good and I always like it because it's easier for my eyesight. So here it is. And she left it on the cashier walked back to the lower part of the theatre.

CO: And then what happened?

WR: The usher came again and said “Well if you don't move, we'll have to call the manager.” So my sister said, “Well call the manager. I’m not causing a disturbance.” They did call the manager, and the manager asked her one more time. And the manager told her, well I'll have to get a policeman. If they’d tell that to me, I'd be a little scared. But Viola said, “Well you'll have to get a policeman. I have done nothing wrong.” And they dragged her out of the theatre and she was placed in jail. And that manager went to get a court order for her arrest.

CO: And she was quite bruised. Do you know what happened to her, why she was… she got so banged up?

WR: She put up a resistance to going out, and she wasn’t going. She just said, “I'm not going.” So one took one arm or one shoulder, and one took the other. And then when she got to the door jam, going of the theatre, she put her one hand on one side of the doorway and one hand on the other. So they just took her legs and her arms and were forceful.

CO: She fought this in court. She wasn't going to accept that she had done anything wrong and what was the reaction among your family and the community? Did she have much support?

WR: My sister had a great deal of support from the Nova Scotia Association for the Advancement of Colored People. In fact, they wanted her to go out and talk about it like Rosa Parks did nine years later. But there were some of the black community that said she had no business going there anyway and she was trying to pass for white which she's not. And nobody asked her to come here and plead our cause. We're fine with going upstairs. There was some that said she should have done as she was told.

CO: What do you think your sister would think? What would Viola think, what would she say, how would she react if she knew that she was going to grace this bill because of what she had done? That her image would be on the $10 bill?

WR: Oh… You know, I paused because I close my eyes, I can see her face. She would be so happy but she wasn't this boisterously happy… she would be happy but not like I am. Noisy. But she would look around, she’d say ‘Oh, I wish I could tell our mother and father. Wouldn't they just be so proud?’

CO: Would she be proud?

WR: Definitely. Quietly proud. Is that an oxymoron?

CO: [Sound: Laughter] No.

WR: To have this honour, I think it was a bit of a surprise. And then happiness for her family, for mom and dad, and then for herself.

CO: Well I'm happy for you, Ms. Robson.

WR: Oh thank you.

CO: And for your family. And it's a great day for you. You should be very proud.

WR: Oh wonderful. Extraordinary. Unbelievable.

CO: Thank you so much.

WR: Thank you.

CO: Bye bye.

WR: Bye bye.

JD: We reached Wanda Robson in Ottawa. Ms. Robson is the sister of the late Viola Desmond, whose face will be featured on a Canadian bank note, the ten dollar bill to be precise. And there is more on that story on our website: cbc.ca/asithappens.

[Music]

BC family

JD: Her son's bones kept on breaking. And she didn't know why. But earlier this year, officials at British Columbia's Ministry of Children and Family Development thought they knew. They suspected abuse. So they took the boy, and his sister, away from their parents because of the mysterious injuries. The children were eventually returned to their parents' care. But then they were removed again.
Now, the children's parents have received some welcome news. The ministry has ruled out abuse in their case. The boy's broken bones may be a result of a genetic disorder. And their children have been returned to their care.
We reached his mother in Vancouver. We cannot name her because her children are former wards of the province.

CO: What is it like to have your children reunited with you.

GUEST: It's an overwhelming sensation. We're very, very excited. It's overwhelming because it's close to Christmas and we just got news the other day that we can go back home.

CO: And what is happening with your son? What kind of attention is he getting?

GUEST: Right now we have a care plan. When we get home, the hospitals will be notified of seeing him as if it's an emergency because he's had so many breaks. And right now we're waiting for some blood tests to come back from genetics to confirm some tests that they're hoping that they find out what's happening with him.

CO: But he's finally getting the medical attention he needs.

GUEST: Yes.

CO: Can you take us back to what happened in the summer and this was when your children were first taken away from you. Why did the B.C. Ministry of Children and Family Development take them?

GUEST: We showed up at the hospital to get follow-up information from a biopsy for a swollen foot that he's had for quite some time, and he had a break in his right leg and also some breaks in his left foot that we tried our best to explain but didn't know that they were broken until we got to the hospital because of swelling. And the children were… my son was admitted into the hospital and an investigation was done and they felt our explanations were not accurate.

CO: They suspected that you had… you or your husband was abusing him?

GUEST: Yeah.

CO: So they took your children away but then they returned them a few months later. What did they say at that time?

GUEST: In September, when they were returned the first time, my son… they had found X-rays on August 18th that showed that he had a break in his right ankle that was inside the cast, and because of the break he had in the summer, it was shown that while in care, he was brought back home, given back to us.

CO: And then n they took them away again?

GUEST: Yes. So in October, when we came back for follow up he had more breaks in and around his cast that he had while in our care. They were all mainly healed by then. And agai, we had no explanation because he was still walking on the broken bones. Not showing any sign of pain.

CO: He has a very high pain threshold, is that right?

GUEST: Yes. And that's been finally found. They're looking now in the right direction. We don't know yet if it is… this is a very rare disease called HSAN, Hereditary Sensory Autonomic Neuropathy. It's an insensitivity to pain.

CO: But all through the fall, were you and your husband under suspicion of hurting your son?

GUEST: We were told by his hospital that it looked like he was being hit with a stick.

CO: And how did you… what did you say? How did you try and convince them otherwise?

GUEST: We just kept saying we're giving you whatever explanation we can come up with. We've come, we've told them of every incident he has had during the time where they thought OK there's one break here. It's about four weeks old. Is there anything you remember from four weeks ago that he may have done?

CO: But when they took your children away, how did they respond? What have they told you about what they went through during that separation?

GUEST: Our kids were very very upset. My daughter was… she was very emotional throughout. She showed every sort of detachment issue you could think of. She was crying all the time. She had a hard time sleeping. She would wake up very early. My son, he's on the waitlist to have autism, an assessment done, and we feel like it could be due to the autism issue that he… he's very strong. He doesn't show a whole lot of emotion. When we left him during visits, he wouldn't cry as hard as our daughter would. Sometimes he would just be like angry. He’d walk away and say… he would just be angry.

CO: And what has the B.C. Ministry of Children and Family Development said now about what you've been through?

GUEST: Well last week when we were with our daughter during a visit – she was just home for an hour and a half visit – the ministry called. First the doctor called and said that they found abnormalities now in his right foot that were similar to the left foot, the whole reason why we're going to the hospital. And I found out later on in the documents at court, that there were microfractures that were found now in the right heel that he is still walking on, showing no sign of pain. So the doctors have seen that now and sees that he has a very high pain threshold. He does seem to sense hot and cold. He cries when he pinches his fingers. So it's something that they're finding very unique in him, specifically, and are consulting with doctors across America now. Because, I believe it's not something that they've seen before, and I've heard that from a few different doctors and specialists.

CO: And is it treatable? Do you think that he will get something for this condition?

GUEST: For insensitivity to pain? I've done a lot of research myself, having the time this summer and they time they were away from us. We've been reading as much articles as we can. And so far I don't see any treatment for insensitivity the pain. Children have to learn how to adjust. Well, if they fall and hurt themselves, they don't feel it, we basically are told to just monitor him and keep a close eye on him. Document any type of fall, anything where you think he would break a bone. Because just when we got here, well he slipped because he was running to the elevator, where he was so excited. I asked him did you get hurt? Are you ok? I was like… just immediately I was in panic mode. I was like, did you get hurt. Is this hurting you? And he got up kind of angry because he was embarrassed from slipping, and he yelled “I don't know.” So I was… of course, we documented, told the doctor right away, and they felt like a slip like that probably wouldn't break a bone, but it's documented. We just have to keep track of everything he does.

CO: There are those in the in the legislature who are calling for a public investigation, a transparent investigation into what happened. And because your family is indigenous, there are questions being raised as to whether this was an incident of institutional racism. Do you think that's possible?

GUEST: It could be possible. I'm not 100 percent clear on whether it was a racist issue myself. It was brought up many times throughout this ordeal and I don't know. It’s… I really hope that this doesn't happen to anybody. It was a nightmare.

CO: I'm so glad you're back with your children and I hope this is the beginning of the end of your nightmare.

GUEST: I hope so. I feel great now. We're finally over the scary part. We don't think that it's life threatening. We don't feel like it's something that we can't handle. His speech has caught… got caught up quite a bit, and he's understanding he's got to be very careful. He's just turned five. After being in the cast for over four months, we feel like he's settled now. He wants to avoid that as well, and he is so proud of not having a cast right now, and says that every day.

CO: I'm glad to hear that. Thank you.

GUEST: Thank you.

JD: That was the mother of a boy in British Columbia who was taken away from his parents because of unexplained broken bones. For legal reasons, we can't name her, but we reached her in Vancouver.

[Music]

John Glenn obit

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: pulsing]

Roger, zero J. And I feel fine. Capsule is turning around. Oh that view is tremendous.

JD: The voice of John Glenn back in 1962, as he looked out the window of the Friendship 7 spacecraft.
He was, at that moment, becoming the first American astronaut to orbit the Earth. In the course of five hours that day, he circled the globe three times and became an American hero.
John Glenn died today. He was 95 years old.
A lot was at stake during Mr. Glenn's 1962 flight. The Soviets were beating the Americans in the space race. On top of that, the rockets that would launch Mr. Glenn's capsule were not exactly reliable.
Here is John Glenn, speaking at NASA on the 50th anniversary of his famous flight, describing his feelings before the launch:

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN GLENN: The very first time we ever saw a missile launch down there when they brought the seven of us down, it wasn't that successful. It was a night launch and we were on a camera pad, I think a couple, 3000ft from the launch site, and it went up and blew it at high cue, at 27,000 feet over our heads at night. And that wasn't a very good confidence builder [Sound: laughter] for our first trip to the Cape. But we followed all the things that happened after that very carefully, with all the development of the atlas at that time and had great confidence that we would have been aboard that thing.

JD: That was John Glenn speaking at a NASA event about his 1962 space flight orbiting the Earth.
When Mr. Glenn returned to earth, he was celebrated with parades and welcomed at the White House. That's when he began to feel the pull of politics. He became a long-serving U.S. Senator. And he even took a shot at the presidency in 1984.
Not long before his bid, The Right Stuff, a Hollywood blockbuster about Mr. Glenn and his fellow Mercury 7 astronauts, hit the screens. But it didn't help him to become the Democratic nominee. He joked later on running for president, that it was a great experience, except for going into debt, humiliating his family, and gaining sixteen pounds. After his retirement from the Senate in 1998, he returned to space, becoming the oldest person to do so. John Glenn died today at the James Cancer Hospital in Columbus, Ohio. He was 95 years old.

[Music]

AI Christmas tune

Guest: Raquel Urtasun

JD: Move over, Mariah Carey. We've found a new Christmas tune to get into. The song doesn't have a name, officially. Nor does the artist. And it's a bit hard to describe, actually. But it sounds like this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Music, piano, electronic female voice]

VOICE: [Singing] I want to decorate the room. The Christmas tree is filled with flowers. Ice wear. Test Christmas eve. I hope the just want to say. The best Christmas present in the world is a blessing. I’m always been there for the rest of our lives. 100 and a half and we’re a… I am glad to meet you. I can hear the music coming from the hall. A fairytale. A Christmas tree. There are lots and lots and lots of flowers.

JD: Believe it or not, that is a Christmas song, written, composed, and performed by artificial intelligence. I know that shocks you, given all the raw emotion, and all the sense it makes.
Raquel Urtasun is one of the computer scientists who brought this music to our ears. She is the Canada research chair in Machine Learning and Computer Vision, and an associate professor at University of Toronto. We reached her however at a conference in Barcelona.

CO: Raquel, we just played a bit of this Christmas song for our listeners. It's a catchy little tune.

RAQUEL URTASUN: [Sound: Raquel laughing] Thank you.

CO: Do you think people were singing along and getting in the spirit?

RU: I hope so. I hope so.

CO: So who or what actually created this piece of music?

RU: So it’s a computer program based on AI technology. And theidea is that the system basically listens to music. And from that it learns to create music.

CO: So the system listened to music. What did the system listen to?

RU: So we basically cut 100 hours of music and yes from that it learned how to generate reasonably sounding in music.

CO: So system listened to a bunch… well hundreds of hours of songs, and then then you also subjected the system to images of Christmas. What did you show… what finally inspired the lyrics of this little ditty?

RU: OK so there is different components to the technologies. The system just learns to generate music. Then there is a second component that basically given a photograph is able to generate text and this text can actually be lyrics of a song. And you can buy as a system to have different styles. So it's conditioned on, you know, what the lyrics look like, to you know, to generate a piece of music that will go reasonably well with the lyrics.

CO: And so the words for instance, “the best Christmas present in the world is a blessing.” Now did that did it just generate that sentiment by itself?

RU: It generated that sentence. That doesn’t mean that it has sentiment, OK?

CO: OK.

RU: That's the difference. There is no such thing as consciousness in the system.

CO: There’s no consciousness. But that’s… ”the best Christmas present in the world is a blessing.” It is a sentiment. So where did it come up with that?

RU: So I guess the generator of the text was trained by reading many many many books. 11000 books in this case. So you know read a lot of literature, if you wish, and basically learned to generate text that sounds human-like.

CO: “I'm glad to meet you. I can hear the music from the hall. A fairytale. A Christmas tale.” These are terrible lyrics, OK? These are awful lyrics.

RU: Sorry. What can you do?

CO: It's not your fault. It's the system you created.

RU: Well it’s our first prototype. And from here, there’s a lot of work to do in order to make something that really sounds great.

CO: Well for people who spend their lifetime trying to get through, yes it does take some time. But now so what, you do see a future for this? Do you think artificial intelligence has a future writing music and lyrics?

RU: I think it’s one thing that's really interesting is to think about the system helping people that don’t necessarily have musical background to generate music, you know, to generate lyrics. I think that that more interactive setting could you know be very interesting.

CO: If somebody wants to have… if someone wants to have a little song for their loved one that they could go to in an AI system, artificial intelligence, and they could create something meaningful for them?

RU: Yeah. I mean it’s the same that you know these days, you can create drawings. There are computer programs that can help you out. You can think of, you know, the same thing, you know, for creating music.

CO: So do you think a lot of artists, musicians will be wanting to do covers of your Christmas song?

RU: I don’t think so, no.

CO: Put it on their Christmas CDs?

[Sound: Laughter]

RU: I don't think so.

CO: Well we’ll just congratulate it on its first attempt at a Christmas song. And it's good to talk to you Raquel, thanks.

RU: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

RU: Bye.

JD: And that is getting radio-play with its first tune. Raquel Urtasan is the Canada Research Chair in Machine Learning and Computer Vision. Also an associate professor in the computer science department at the University of Toronto. We reached her however at a conference in Barcelona, Spain. You can listen, and sing along, perhaps send it to a loved one, because that computer-composed Christmas song is on our website. That's at cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Back To Top »

Part 2: Snow geese, Senate doctors

Snow geese

Guest: Andrea Stierle

JD: It must have looked like the perfect landing spot from the air. But for about ten thousand migrating snow geese, Montana's mile-long Berkeley Pit couldn't have been a worse place to touch down. The Pit is a toxic lake, formed from a decommissioned copper mine. And, despite efforts to scare the birds off, many of them have now died.
Andrea Stierle is a chemistry professor who studies the pit. She's also an avid birder. We reached her in Missoula, Montana.

CO: Professor Stierle, why do you think that these thousands of snow geese decided to put down in the Berkeley Pit?

ANDREA STIERLE: Well it's part of the annual migration. Birds come down from Canada, come down from the Arctic to over winter in much warmer places. And this year, because of a very warm fall, I think the birds got a much later start coming south. And when they actually came down, they were coming down as part of a big storm front and they bypassed the lakes they usually land in and kind of hopscotched down to this very large body of water called the Berkeley Pit.

CO: How did you react when you heard that so many birds had landed in that pit?

AS: Oh it broke my heart. We first started hearing that birds were flying over, and they'll do these massive flyovers. And when I heard from friends that they were hearing thousands of birds in the air over view, you know I immediately thought oh no I hope they don't think the Berkeley Pit is a lake, and the next morning we heard, you know, thousands of birds were out in the lake but there weren't any deaths. I thought that's impossible. And sure enough, you know, news of the birds dying started coming in.

CO: When you say that you’d heard that the no one had died and you said it was not possible. Tell us about Berkeley Pit and how toxic it is.

AS: Well, the Berkeley Pit is basically an abandoned copper mine, and it now has 50 billion gallons of water in it that's full of sulfuric acid. So the PH is about 2.5, and all of the minerals that are in that area that are dissolving into the pit. It includes high levels of iron, copper, cadmium, zinc, magnesium, aluminum, and all of these metals have that potential at very high concentrations, to be toxic to wildlife. If they drank a liter of water, they probably exceeded the lethal dose threefold. It's an acute assault on the bird. But then, as metals could bio-accumulate, a bird that could survive long enough to fly away would probably be dead in you know 24 to 48 hours.

CO: Is there any possibility that the birds that landed on that could survive that dip into the pit?

AS: Well, if a bird were to land and then take off right away. But these poor birds probably had just flown you know 500 to 1000 miles. And they're exhausted, and they're coming in at the front of a storm, so they're landing, they're going to drink deeply to replenish themselves, and they're going to rest. And they are tired. And so Montana Resources, who manages this the mine site there, they tried their usual hazing techniques but these birds, the people who were desperately trying to haze them always said, they were using fireworks they were using you know rounds of guns being fired off with blanks and the birds just, like I can't repeat enough, when you're migrating, you are exhausted and that behavior then makes the birds less flighty. And so they were going to rest and drink and recover to do the last leg of their migratory journey. And you know, a bunch of noise from a bunch of people trying to scare them away, just evidently had no effect.

CO: Is there any company or an individual that will be held responsible? Will they face any kind of fines or even charges?

AS: Obviously, the mining company that runs is in charge of operations at the Pit, would be responsible. This has been an EPA Superfund site for many years now. And so there have been discussions about how do you clean up a nightmare like this and yet, not much has been done. It seems if anything, the pit just gets bigger every year. I don't know if you have a sense of the footprint of this pit, but it's about a mile wide, and that's a pretty good size body of water. And it also sits at the headwaters of the Columbia river ecosystem. So it's in a fragile position.

CO: Do you think in the political environment the United States is now entering, in particular, the Environmental Protection Agency... do you think it's likely that anything be done with this pit?

AS: I'm really worried that what I'm hearing about individuals who are being chosen to run some of our agencies under the next administration are people who have actively fought regulations on a routine basis, and regulation is part of what's brought us clean air and clean water, and has mitigated the number of environmental disasters that we've had. So I think, like many Americans, I'm fearful of moving forward, that we're going to see a curtailment of regulations. And I just pray this does not become our new normal. If I had a crystal ball, I don't know, maybe I'd be even more frightened. But right now I am worried.

CO: Professor Stierle, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AS: Thank you and I appreciate your interest.

CO: Bye bye.

AS: Have a good day.

JD: Andrea Stierle is a chemistry professor and she studies the toxic Berkeley Pit mine. We reached her in Missoula, Montana. For more on this story, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

House of Commons no tie

JD: A wedding. An important job interview. Maybe a fancy Christmas party. All events where you may be expected to wear a tie. You can add to that list the House of Commons to that list too. In fact, you should add that to your list.
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith learned that lesson yesterday afternoon. The Liberal MP was speaking in the House of Commons when he was interrupted by the Speaker. Here's that exchange.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER ANTHONY ROTA: Questions and comments. The Honourable Member for Beaches East York.

NATHANIEL ERSKINE-SMITH: I wonder if the member could speak to the different kinds of data. I think it's an unfortunate thing when we talk about debt to Canadians as just debt. There’s capital infrastructure debt, there's operating expense debt that we might incur, and they’re very different

AR: There's a rule in the House, that you can be in the House you can vote in the House without a tie, but unfortunately I'm going to have to cut it off. I just noticed the Honourable Member doesn't have a tie. I'm going to have to ask him to sit down.

[Sound: Groans from the audience]

AR: I'm sure it was a great question.

JD: That was assistant deputy speaker Anthony Rota interrupting Liberal MP Nathaniel Erskine-Smith yesterday in the House of Commons. Sitting him down for not wearing a tie.

[Music]

Senate doctors

Guest: Dr. Barry Rubin

JD: The federal Finance Minister says he's just closing a loophole that lets some doctors pay less tax than they should. But Barry Rubin is warning that the change would not just affect doctors. Dr. Rubin is the Medical Director of the Peter Munk Cardiac Centre in Toronto. Last night, he told a Senate committee that the new law would hurt the medical research and education that we all rely on.
We reached Dr. Rubin in Toronto.

CO: Dr. Rubin, how would these tax code changes affect you?

BARRY RUBIN: I would answer by commenting how they'll affect all of the doctors in teaching hospitals in Ontario and across the country. The reality is that two thirds of the funding for teaching that happens in Canadian hospitals and research is supplied by the doctors themselves. Doctors work in groups and the higher earners voluntarily transfer some of their income to the lower earners because the lower earners are the ones that are spending relatively more of their time doing teaching and research, and teaching and research pays much less on an hourly rate than clinical care. So the ability of Canada to be a leader in education and to have all these great medical firsts that we've done like the first single lung transplant, the leaders in no incision heart surgery, develop stem cell therapies for diabetes heart disease, new drugs for stroke. All of these things are enabled in part because doctors contribute their own income to the research and teaching enterprise.

CO: So how many of the doctors who are affected by this change or this closing of this loophole, how many of them are in the position of you of these being teaching hospitals where this is happening?

BR: So there is about 82 or 83,000 doctors in Canada, and the estimate is between ten and 15,000 would be impacted by this.

CO: Ten to 15 thousand impacted by this change in the code, and how many of them are in a position like yourself, in teaching hospitals, where the benefits are passed on to other people below you in the chain?

BR: The vast majority of those would be in teaching hospitals, so there's 6000 in Ontario. And the reason I say that is if you work in a teaching hospital, you have to be part of a group practice because that's what's mandated by the universities that are affiliated with the hospitals. So to have a university appointment, you have to work in a construct called a practice plan. And that's where groups of doctors come together and share income. And the important distinction here is that if you work in the community the vast majority of doctors function as solo practitioners. So the playing field isn't level because a solo practitioner have full access to the small business deduction whereas under the rules proposed and C-29, doctors in groups doing the exact same type of work, a cardiologist in the community versus a cardiologist in a teaching hospital, in the teaching hospital, that doctor is going to have to share the small business deduction. So this is where the problem lies. Doctors and group practice and teaching hospitals are already voluntarily giving up some of their income to support teaching and research. And now we're being asked to absorb a second hit. So you can envision over time what's going to happen. Say somebody finishes their training program in cardiology and they're deciding do I want to work in the community or do I want to work in a teaching hospital. Well if there is a meaningful difference in tax between those two over time doctors will choose to work in the community.

CO: They wouldn't go to a teaching hospital because they couldn't make as much money. And that would be the only incentive?

BR: No I think that there's multiple incentives. Doctors come to teaching hospitals because they want to teach, because they want to do research.

CO: So why do you think it would change with this with closing this loophole? If they want to do it, if that’s the incentive. Why would just this loophole have that effect?

BR: Well because there's really no other example in society where groups have to pay for doing the type of things that bring a societal benefit out of their own income. And you know, I think it's just human nature that over time doctors will make that choice.

CO: What we've heard from the finance minister, Mr. Morneau, who says, and this is a quote from him, “We're not treating physicians in any way different from other professionals or other small businesses. What we're saying is one small business is able to have one small business deduction.” What's wrong with that?

BR: It fails to recognize the nature of the group practice and the purpose of the group practice. In other professional groups, not doctors. The tendency is that the lower earning individuals will transfer funds to the higher earning individuals. That might happen in a law practice for example. This is exactly the opposite. This is the higher earning individuals transferring money to the lower individuals, the lower learning individuals rather, because they don't get paid as much for doing teaching and research. So in order to make the playing field equitable from an economic point of view and to appropriately recognize the work that doctors do in terms of teaching and research, there has to be this transfer of funds and I don't think that the government, despite the fact that 2000 doctors wrote to the minister, I helped edit a briefing note that went from the Ontario Medical Association to the minister explaining this construct, they're failing to recognize that doctors do not enter into these type of group structures to increase revenue. They do it to be able to share revenue to enable teaching and research.

CO: André Picard who is you know a columnist at The Globe and Mail now says that he understands that doctors are frustrated. But he says the Canadians are perhaps a bit tired of the whining of doctors who are always lamenting their finances, and that people might think that they should just pay taxes like everybody else. What do you say to that?

BR: I can appreciate that. I have bills to pay like everybody else. But the essence of this is that it's not about the money, it's about the ability to transfer the money in between the partners in the plan. And I think what Canadians, I think most Canadians would be surprised to hear that two thirds of the research and teaching that goes on in teaching hospitals in Canada is paid for by the doctors. If this was paid for by the governments, there would be no discussion about this item. But historically, there has not been enough funding to be able to support teaching and research. And that's why doctors formed these groups.

CO: Dr. Rubin, thank you.

BR: It's been my pleasure talking with you.

JD: Dr. Barry Rubin is the Medical Director of the Peter Munk Cardiac Centre. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Harry Reid on Leonard Cohen

JD: Today, U.S. Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid gave his farewell speech on the senate floor. The Democrat from Nevada has been a Washington lawmaker for three decades. So he had a lot to say, and darn it, he's earned the right to say it. This morning's speech clocked in at just over an hour. There were lots of highlights. But for us here in Canada, the most interesting part came in the last twenty minutes. Mr. Reid was talking about how too much money is interfering with federal elections. That's when he brought up Leonard Cohen.

SOUNDCLIP

HARRY REID: Leonard Cohen, who recently died, one of America's great music geniuses, recently died, as I said. And one of his songs called Anthem he says it all. And I quote “There's a crack, a crack in everything. There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in.” That’s what he said.

JD: Yes, that is what he said. But we’re back up a second, Mr. Reid, just so we can be sure we heard you right.

SOUNDCLIP

Leonard Cohen, who recently died, one of America's great music geniuses–

JD: Well, no. No no no no . Here we go again, right this is just like back in June, when our good pals at NPR proclaimed the late Gordie Howe was American. Of course, he was not. He was from Saskatchewan which is in Canada. And of course, of course, Leonard Cohen was from Montreal. Which is in Canada
America, look, we get it. You're tired, it's been a rough year. But get your facts straight and quit claiming everyone as your own. But Harry Reid, you're forgiven.

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Part 3: Ontario child advocate, bovine tuberculosis

Ontario child advocate

Guest: Irwin Elman

JD: Katelynn Samson was just seven years old when she was killed by the people who were supposed to be protecting her.
Katelynn's mother was dealing with an addiction, so Katelynn was put in the care of family acquaintances in Toronto. They beat her to death in 2008.
A coroner's inquest found she had been repeatedly overlooked by those who had a responsibility to help her – including several child welfare agencies, and the Toronto District School Board. Today, the Ontario government proposed sweeping changes to the province's child welfare law, including the introduction of a new principle, a guiding principle, called Katelynn's Principle.
Irwin Elman is Ontario's Advocate for Children and Youth. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Elman, why are these changes to the Child Welfare Act being called Katelynn's principle?

IRWIN ELMAN: Well a good piece of that act is being is part of Katelyn's... Katelynn was a child who died probably about nine years ago. She died in a horrific way in downtown Toronto at the hands of her caregivers, and her case was open to at least two Children's Aid Societies at the time. And at her inquest, the testimony was that, you know nobody actually asked her if she was OK. Nobody talked to her. And I think one of the agencies involved said, “We just missed her.” And Katelynn's Principle, we had standing at the inquest, was created by young people in care and staff, together that said children should be at the center of every decision made by a child welfare agency in their lives and they should have the right to participate in, at best to their capacity, in every decision made.

CO: So how does it work though? I mean, children are… how can they be consulted as to what’s in their best interest?

IE: Well there's a process of asking and listening and we should do that with children, particularly those in care. Thinking about a young person in care who told me that you know when we have a voice, we feel that our lives are meaningful. And when we have a voice and people listen we feel fearless, it makes us feel fearless. And I think that if any group of children need to feel fearless and feel listened to, it's young people we take from their homes and place in a system run by the state to care for them. So really it's about asking them. And you ask children in different ways, and you do it in relationship. It's not just a matter of where do you want to live? And they've never met you before. But they have to trust you and have a relationship with you. And it becomes a dialogue, particularly with younger children.
You know, I have small children, they’re both boys, and one's nine, one's 12, and I hope they’re not listening, but they've started asking me about sex, and as a parent I answer the questions as best I can so that they'll understand them, and then they ask more questions, and at some point in time when I talk to them, they say ‘OK Dad we had enough. We won the hockey game last night,’ until they come back to me and ask again. And that's the kind of relationship we need with children in our systems of care. And that kind of dialogue, that's how you build a sense of understanding, and you allow them to be fearless and feel part of their own lives as they grow up because God knows, our system says they have to live on their own at least in almost every province, by the time they’re 18.

CO: The idea, the principle of empowering children, to make them part of the decisions about their lives seems so important. But at the same time, we know that children don't always know how to make decisions in their own best interests. How do you have a meaningful exchange with them? How do you bring them into that process in a way that… and weigh that the value of what they're saying against other interests they may not quite understand?

IE: I think you have to do it in a sense, and that's why when I hear this piece of legislation is it's going to be put forward and probably passed and proclaimed, I think about building the capacity in the system itself to work in a way that both listens and respects and dialogues with children in care. And you have to do it as any parent would do. I think most parents would say, you know for instance, you're going to buy a new house in another part of the city or you're moving to another city. It’s not about, does the child get to say ‘no I'm not moving there.’ It's about ensuring the child has some input and has some understanding about what's happening to them, and you have a discussion and dialogue with them. And perhaps when you have teenagers, you do include them in the decision making about what kind of house you want to buy. And it's understanding their capacity, understanding the abilities in which they can both participate and make decisions. But for kids in care, who have worker after worker, who sometimes move from home to home, it's so important to build this sense of being part of their own lives so that they feel that they're an actor in the world and not an object in the world. And I think this, Katelynn's Principle and how it's embodied in the act has the potential to revolutionize how we do work.

CO: And I wonder what difference it would make for Katelynn, and Katelynn Samson’s mother, who is dealing with addiction. She put Katelynn in the care of family acquaintances in Toronto, and they killed her. So how would things be different for Katelynn if there was such…

IE: You know I think… I think about that, I think about Katelynn all the time. She died when I first became the advocate, and it feels like she's been with me on this journey I've had in trying to push for reforms in child welfare for… since I began. And I thought today about what would she think, and how would it have made a difference. I think that what I'm saying is that if she was noticed, if she was asked, perhaps she might have said something. Perhaps maybe somebody would have checked on her to see how she was doing, even days or weeks before. But I think also, it would have required somebody to be a supportive caring adult in her life, who would have known, who would have seen her, where she wouldn't have been invisible. Because having a voice, means you cannot be invisible. And that's why Katelynn died, because to the service system, to the adults in her life, except the ones who in the end were tried for her murder, she was invisible. And no child should be invisible, particularly kids in the care of the state, or connected to the state. Because when children are invisible, that's when bad things happen to them.

CO: Mr. Elman, thank you.

IE: Thank you Carol. Thanks for having me.

JD: Irwin Elman is Ontario's Advocate for Children and Youth. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Orangutan on pill expecting

JD: It's a development that no one at the Adelaide Zoo in South Australia was expecting – least of all Karta. But now the 34-year-old Sumatran orangutan is indeed...expecting. The zoo released a short video on its Facebook page, explaining why Karta's pregnancy took everyone by surprise – and what her human handlers are doing about it.

SOUNDCLIP

JODIE ELLEN: Hi, my name is Jodie and I'm the Senior Primate Keeper here at Adelaide's Zoo. And today I'm with you to share some exciting but very nerve-wracking. And that is that our beloved Sumatran Karta is expecting a baby early in the New Year. Now this wasn't a planned pregnancy, Karta was actually on contraception, but Mother Nature actually intervened and we've gone ahead with the pregnancy because Sumatran orangutans are critically endangered in the wild and Kluet and Karta, our pairing here at Adelaide Zoo, are extremely valuable genetically, so it's a really valuable pairing. Now as many of you probably know, Karta has had quite a lot of trouble in the past. She has difficulties breast feeding, and she's had stillborns as well. We are doing everything we can in our power to support her through this pregnancy. We've put top of the line cameras in place in our building so that we can monitor her through that period before the birth and afterwards. We have lots of plans in place for our caring during that time of the lead up to the birth and after, and of course our training with Karta so that we can hopefully help feed that infant after it's born. So it's a very stressful time for all of this but we're really hoping that we will have your support during this time because we all know we all desperately want this to be a positive outcome and we all hope for the best.

JD: That was Jodie Ellen, senior primate keeper at the Adelaide Zoo in South Australia, announcing that Karta, a resident orangutan, is pregnant – despite being on the pill.

[Music]

Homecare case

JD: When you ask someone "How's life?" the typical response is "fine." It's a fine response, and it circumvents the need for further conversation. Tyson Sylvestor, however, wants further conversation. And that is why he is telling us his life is not fine. It's "demoralizing and degrading."
Mr. Sylvester is a 21-year-old from Winnipeg. He's visually impaired, has cerebral palsy, and uses a wheelchair. He can't feed himself, dress himself, or bathe himself without help. He used to have a full-time support person, but that changed when he turned 18.
Mr. Sylvestor says he cannot access some additional support as an adult in part, because he does not have a significant mental disability. So he has filed a human rights complaint against both Manitoba Health, and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority.
Here is Tyson Sylvestor speaking with CBC Manitoba's Donna Carreiro, about his life before and after he turned 18.

SOUNDCLIP

TYSON SYLVESTOR: I would have a person with me 24/7 to help me do everyday tasks such as washing dishes, helping me get my lunch out, and like, even going out with me places. They would like, you know, take me around to see the community or do a regular thing that a normal person would do, you know, you go shopping. They'd be allowed to do that. They would also, like be there if I ever needed to use the facilities, they'd be there to help me with that.

DONNA CARREIRO: They had to help you until you turned 18. What supports were you allowed to access?

TS: I was just able to access a home care program. They basically just gave me a call. Once in the morning, for maybe 15 minutes, once in the evening, then once at night.

DC: So you’ve described this home care that comes once in the morning etc. etc. What about the rest of the day until you get your evening home care visit?

TS: The rest of the day, I'm just completely on my own, and it's up to me. If I have to go, I have to basically get myself on the can because I have no one to help me, or if I want something to eat, I have to wait for the next call to come in. In fact, I've had quite a few falls because my mom has to work, and she can't take time off just to stay with me and be with me 24/7. Basically, they say this. We provide service but if you're unable to live in the community home, you would be in a senior home pretty much. And if you think a guy like me 21, and I can’t live in the community. To get put into a place like that would be completely unfair, and completely against human rights.

DC: What made you decide it's time to take some legal action.

TS: A comment that I got when I turned 18, right after my IQ test. Here is a quote from the psychologists that did it “I would be better off in the criminal justice system. At least I would get food and better accommodations than I would in the regular system.”

JD: That was Tyson Sylvestor speaking to CBC Manitoba's Donna Carreiro about his human rights complaint.
The Winnipeg Regional Health Authority said in a statement that the Manitoba Home Care Program is only responsible for providing the minimal home care that Mr. Sylvester now receives. And a spokesperson for the province said they could not comment on the case because it is before the Manitoba Human Rights Commission.

[Music]

Bovine tuberculosis

Guest: Elaine Osadczuk

JD: Until recently, Brad and Elaine Osadczuk had more than 2000 cattle on their ranch. Soon, they'll have zero. All their cows, calves, and bulls will have been killed.
It's part of an effort by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, or the CFIA, to stop an outbreak of bovine tuberculosis in Western Canada. So far, around fifty ranches in Saskatchewan and Alberta have been put under quarantine.
The first case of bovine TB was linked to a cow in the Osadczuk family's herd in September. We reached Elaine Osadczuk in Jenner, Alberta.

CO: Elaine, can you tell us which of your animals you're losing?

ELAINE OSADCZUK: It will be 1200 cows, 1200 calves, 53 bull that we know of for sure at this point.

CO: And there might be more?

EO: Well, they have said that all the farm animals will go. Horses, dogs, cats. We haven't gotten confirmation on that yet.

CO: What is left of your farm after that?

EO: Nothing. There's no animals on it. It's pretty quiet, that's for sure. We still have 400 calves left in our feed lots. They haven't given us a date when they're coming to get those but they are coming to get them. So as of now we are feeding them, and we're feeding a dead animal basically.

CO: How are you and your husband dealing with this?

EO: You know, it's a rollercoaster. We have some good days. We have some bad days, but we're doing the best we can because we know it's for the greater good. It’s for the safety of our food industry. So I guess, that's what's keeping us going.

CO: So you approve of what the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is doing.

EO: Well yes, in order to have a safe food industry and to keep our borders open for exports, and for our trading partners’ peace of mind, yeah we do agree with what they're doing.

CO: The CFIA is saying that it has a 26,000 cattle are under quarantine. 10,000 cattle including your animals will be slaughtered. And so is that it? Or do you think it's even more extensive than that?

EO: Well, right now know yeah there's 50 ranches that are quarantined. Out of those 50, there's 18 that have destruction orders. As far as I know. Brad and I's ranch is the only one, and my father and mother in-law’s, that have had their cows taken for destruction so far. From what I understand, they're waiting for some testing of reactors and such. So to take the others’ herds.

CO: How did you first learn that one of your cows actually had bovine tuberculosis?

EO: Well we got a phone call from CFIA. We were busy out doing our thing, and came in in the evening and listened to our phone messages. And when Brad called the CFIA vet back, he asked him if he was sitting down. He's had some really bad news for him. And right then our world changed, probably forever.

CO: Why forever?

EO: Well, it took us a long time to build up that herd of cows. And it's not something that you can just replace. You know, we had twelve hundred. I don't know if we'll ever get back to that number. It takes years and years to grow that.

CO: Where did it come from? Where did the infection enter your cow? How did that happen?

EO: Well, that’s one of the questions that they're trying to figure out. We don't know. They tell us it's a strain that's never been seen in Canada before. That it has been seen in central Mexico and in the United States. But it's never been in Canada before. So that's one of the issues that CFIA is dealing with.

CO: And how would that happen? What would be the contact that would allow for that?

EO: Well it would be have to be, you know, be different situations such as through wildlife, or we are even told by one of the vets, it could even be from a migratory bird.

CO: And what happens to the animals that are slaughtered?

EO: Well the other ones that reacted either to the tuberculin test or the blood tests. Those are destroyed. And the rest that are clean, if you have a destruction order such as Brad and I, and my in-laws had, and they've already taken all those clean cattle, so that means that they didn't react to any testing. They went into the food chain.

CO: So the ones that were not infected, didn't show positive for TB, they became food.

EO: That's right. And they also didn't react to any of the testing that CFIA has done on them.

CO: The federal government says, announced $17 million in assistance for ranchers in Alberta and Saskatchewan that are affected by the quarantine. Are you going to get enough to compensate for what's happened to your farm?

EO: Well that's another good question because we actually just had a meeting last night and got the application form. We've been trying to keep track of all our expenses, whether it be building corrals or installing water systems. Those are just a couple of examples. So we do have to keep all our receipts and keep track of everything, and hopefully we will get reimbursed from for that.

CO: But then you’ll have to rebuild. Start from scratch.

EO: Then we have to start from scratch. That's right. And that's a long road. They took three generations of cattle. They took the calf, the mother , the calf she had this year, and they took the calf that she was going to have next spring.

CO: And this is not just, you know, it's one thing on your farm, but all your neighbors are having the same situation. These destruction orders are all through your community. What effect does that have on your entire community and all your neighbors and–

EO: Well it has a huge effect because from what I understand I mean everybody would like to stay in the business. And what’s it going to be like when we all go and try and find bred cattle to replace our herds and we can't just go out and find bred cattle wherever and whenever you want. There's certain times a year that they're available, and plus they’re going to be very expensive because it's going to be a lot of people looking. And of course we all want good quality. So it's going to be tough to rebuild.

CO: Any chances that you won't be able to? Are you considering at all getting out of the business of ranching?

EO: No no. We're not considering that at all. It's a lifestyle, it's a lifestyle we love. And we're going to stay here and we're going to move forward.

CO: I can hear the resilience in you, Elaine. You don't give up, do you?

EO: No. No. Not at all.

CO: Good for you. Nice to speak with you. Thanks Elaine.

EO: Oh you're welcome.

CO: I hope everything works out.

EO: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

EO: Bye bye.

JD: That was Elaine Osadczuk. We reached her in Jenner, Alberta.

[Music]

Dana Rohrabacher

JD: For a guy reported to be in the running for the United States' top diplomat, Dana Rohrabacher seems to have a lot to learn about… well, diplomacy. At least, when it comes to conversations with journalists.
Yesterday, the Congressman was being interviewed by Yahoo News anchor Bianna Golodryga. And when Ms. Golodryga asked him about Russia, things turned testy – and personal.

SOUNDCLIP

BIANNA GOLODRYGA: You talked about human rights abusers in China. Much can be said about Russia as well.

DANA ROHRABACHER: Oh, baloney. Where do you come from?

BG: I come from the former Soviet Union.

[Crosstalk]

DR: OK tell me, how many… oh OK.

BG: That’s where I come from, I came here as a political refugee. That’s where I came from.

DR: What country did you say?

BG: I come from the former Soviet Union from Moldova.

DR: Oh well, that's good. Then the audience knows your bias.

BG: I'm biased because I’m an American citizen who was born in a foreign country?

DR: Oh yeah. When you start saying that Russia should be… Do you know that there have been no political reforms in China? None.

BG: I'm not… I'm not advocating that China be our best friend. I'm talking about Russia right now.

DR: You just said that Russia and China are the same, and I'm sorry they are not–

BR: I said they’re both human rights abusers. How am I wrong?G

DR: How are you wrong? In China, they don't have opposition.

BG: Russia isn’t accused of murdering journalists?

DR: OK. Look, you can… I’ll let the public decide for that last comment where you're coming from. The bottom line is, what's good for America is to prioritize, as I did when I worked with Ronald Reagan, I wrote most of his speeches–

BG: And what would Ronald Reagan think about your thoughts about Vladimir Putin?

DR: He would love it. Maybe you forgot that Ronald Reagan was the one who reached out to Gorbachev for the –

BG: Are you comparing Gorbachev to Vladimir Putin?

DR: Absolutely I am.

JD: That was Yahoo News anchor Bianna Golodryga interviewing U.S. Congressman Dana Rohrabacher, who is reportedly in the running to be Donald Trump's Secretary of State.

[Music]

ELO's Greg Lake obit

JD: Their first album was just an appetizer. For their second album, they wheeled out the song that is about 20 minutes long. It's about Tarkus, an armadillo-tank creature which defeats a pterodactyl-warplane creature and a lizard-lobster-rocket launcher creature before being defeated itself by a manticore, then it falls in a river and becomes Aquatarkus.
If that sounds silly to you, you are probably not a prog-rock fan. If you are, you know that "Tarkus" was one of the songs that made Emerson, Lake and Palmer legends. And you don't think it's silly at all. You get, it's a metaphor.
Greg Lake – who sang, produced, and played both guitar and bass for that band – died yesterday. He was 69 years old.
As pioneers of progressive rock, ELP took a "bigger is better" approach. After "Tarkus" in 1971, they released "Pictures at an Exhibition," a 37-minute live rock version of Mussorgsky's piano suite. In 1973, their record "Brain Salad Surgery" contained a 30-minute song entitled "Karn Evil 9."
Greg Lake once told Rolling Stone magazine, "I think there is truth in the fact that the group was pretentious. You don't make an omelet without cracking eggs." And that "omelet" being a new kind of music, that stretched the boundaries of rock, and of rock spectacle, their "Brain Salad Surgery" tour featured 35 tons of equipment – including a grand piano that spun end over end in mid-air while Keith Emerson was playing it.
Emerson, Lake and Palmer weren't just pioneers of prog. They were accidental pioneers of punk as well, which was partly a response to all that excess. Greg Lake understood that response. But he also defended his band's grand gestures, saying "We were always trying to go one step further, one step bigger."

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Dec 8, 2016 episode transcript

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