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The Current Transcript for December 6, 2016

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I'm all for the pipeline. I really feel that--

CHILD 1: Mommy.

VOICE 1: When it comes to Blue River, it'll bring people in, a lot more jobs available.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Where you wander determines what you hear. From a mom in the tiny hamlet of Blue River, BC, right on the route of the expanded Kinder Morgan pipeline plan.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Protesters chanting and drums beating]

AMT: To protesters south of the border in North Dakota, celebrating the decision to deny plans to route a pipeline under the Missouri River. What links these places is the controversy that swirls around pipelines. And today, we're tackling two of the many angles on our journalistic radar. In an hour, the CBC's Erin Collins follows the Kinder Morgan route from Edmonton to Burnaby, to hear from regular citizens with no particular clout — just their opinions. In half an hour, we're asking how the Standing Rock standoff will affect the fight already shaping up against two pipelines in Canada. But before we do that, there is video of a murder. It shows the killer and two witnesses in the room at the time. But six years on, the police have no arrests.

SOUNDCLIP

You go, you started on we're going to get him, to are you kidding? How can I be sitting here in 2016 speaking to you?

AMT: A cold case investigation from Dave Ridgen. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

'I need to know your name': A desperate search for Emad Rozik's killer

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Six years ago, Emad Rozik was fatally shot at his car wash in Scarborough, Ontario. His killer was never found. Today his family is still waiting for justice. David Ridgen, the host of the CBC podcast Someone Knows Something has been investigating this cold case for The Current. Police have given him never heard before audio and new video of the alleged perpetrator. It's on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. This is Dave Ridgen’s documentary, I Need To Know Your Name. And a warning, what you're about to hear is disturbing.

[Music: low bass line and drums]

SOUNDCLIP

911: 911?

EMAD ROZIK: [screaming] F**king coming to rob to me?

911: Hello?

EMAD ROZIK: Yeah, send the police right now, there’s a guy in here asking for my cash.

911: OK, you’re in Scarborough?

EMAD ROZIK: I am at 1566.

[Sound: loud noises]

EMAD ROZIK: [unintelligible]

911: Stay on the line sir, I’m connecting with police.

SUSPECT: Stop following me.

EMAD ROZIK: [unintelligible] follow you want.

911: We’re connecting now sir, one moment please.

[Sound: phone ringing]

DAVID RIDGEN: On Tuesday, July 6th, 2010 at around 1:02 pm, the Toronto Police Service received reports of gunshots at a carwash in Scarborough. The owner of the carwash, 49-year-old Emad Rozik was rushed to hospital, where he later succumbed to a gunshot wound. An appeal was made requesting help from witnesses or anyone who might recognize the killer on the grainy security camera footage. Police even offered a 50,000 dollar reward for information.

[Sound: background operator chatter]

MICHAEL ROZIK: They had the getaway car video, they had the guy on video and I was just surprised that there was nothing.

SHEILA OGG: We have this on video. And this is a huge piece. You think, we're going to get this guy. And nothing. Nobody calls, nobody called. I don't think I've had a case where nobody calls.

DAVID RIDGEN: Over six years later, Emad Rozik’s family is still waiting for that call.

MAGUI ROZIK: If you want to start here. Most of the pictures are here. That's the wedding picture, it was 1991, February. It was only six months remaining for our 20th anniversary and we were planning what to do.

DAVID RIDGEN: Magui Rozik still lives in the house that her husband Emad designed for their family. All sweeping staircases and open spaces.

MAGUI ROZIK: This is a canvas I did after he passed away just to have the feeling that he's with us in the room.

DAVID RIDGEN: The couple emigrated from Egypt together about 25 years ago. Magui is a soft spoken kind soul and she offers me vegan sweets every time I visit.

MAGUI ROZIK: [Sound: plates and cutlery] I hope you like it.

DAVID RIDGEN: The hospitality almost makes me forget why I am here. To find out about the worst day of her life.

MAGUI ROZIK: It was normal day, first day of summer, I believe, because I woke up Michael this morning and I told his dad, like, take him to work with you because he, I think one of his employees left. So I said why don't you take him and keep him working for the summer?

DAVID RIDGEN: Emad Rozik’s son Michael was 15-years-old the day he went to work for his father at the family car wash.

MAGUI ROZIK: Yeah. And I just called him the morning while I'm driving to downtown and I told him, like, teach him whatever he has to do and don't upset him, like, don't scream at him. He said, no, no, I won't scream at him. That’s fine.

DAVID RIDGEN: Michael is 21 now, studies law in the Caribbean. And he talks about that day with the lawyer’s attention to detail.

MICHAEL ROZIK: Just standard work. I did work on cars, cleaned some windows and I got a call from my friend and he said do you want to hang out? So I asked my dad can I get off work a little bit early today? He said yeah that's fine. You know, here's ten dollars, you know, you can go catch a bus, do whatever, you know, have a good day. So I left, I caught the bus.

[Music: ominous undertones]

DAVID RIDGEN: Michael left the car wash around noon. Which means just shortly before, a man walked in and began rummaging around behind the cash counter. Emad Rozik phoned 911. The call is upsetting to hear.

SOUNDCLIP

911: 911?

EMAD ROZIK: [screaming] F**king coming to rob to me?

911: Hello?

EMAD ROZIK: Yeah, send the police right now, there’s a guy in here asking for my cash.

911: OK, you’re in Scarborough?

EMAD ROZIK: I am at 1566.

[Sound: loud noises]

EMAD ROZIK: [unintelligible]

911: Stay on the line sir, I’m connecting with police.

SUSPECT: Stop following me.

EMAD ROZIK: [unintelligible] follow you want.

911: We’re connecting now sir, one moment please.

[Sound: phone ringing]

DAVID RIDGEN: The carwash used a voice over internet protocol service, phone calls over your internet. This can be cheaper, as it allows you to avoid paying long distance fees but it also caused a delay when Emad Rozik tried to reach police.

SOUNDCLIP

911: You okay?

OPERATOR: Emergency, what do you require?

911: Hi, it's a voice over IP transfer call to the police in Scarborough.

Operator: OK.

911: Operator 517 with the national 911 call centre. The caller is at 1566 Midland Ave.

DAVID RIDGEN: Magui Rozik didn't discover that anything was wrong that day, until she got home at 5:00 pm and received a call from the priest of their Coptic Orthodox Church. He was trying without success to reach Emad.

MAGUI ROZIK: I said, maybe he's busy with something, I'm going to have to ask him to call you back. He said because I heard there is a shooting in the area and I wanted to make sure his business is OK and he's OK. I said maybe he's witnessing something because it happened before when he was running Petro Canada gas station. I'll have him give you a call.

DAVID RIDGEN: But Emad didn't pick up when Magui called either.

MAGUI ROZIK: And then I started panic, looking at the Internet. I found that there is something in a car wash around Midland and Lawrence and I know there is not much, many car wash in the area. So I decided to drive there…

[Sound: sirens and ambulance sounds]

DAVID RIDGEN: It was immediately evident that the family business was a crime scene.

MAGUI ROZIK: By the time I arrived, I found yellow tape around the carwash. My heart almost stopped.

DAVID RIDGEN: Desperate, Magui asked an officer for the name of the victim.

MAGUI ROZIK: And then he said I don't know, who are you? I said, I'm the wife of the owner of the car wash. He said give me a sec. And I said don't leave me here, I can't even stand up. By this time I was almost on the floor.

DAVID RIDGEN: A detective broke the news.

MAGUI ROZIK: She took me in then she confirmed that it's him. She said yeah, it's over. I said what's over?

DAVID RIDGEN: Despite being rushed to the hospital, the gunshot wound was fatal. And Emad Rozik was pronounced dead at approximately 1:36 pm.

MAGUI ROZIK: I couldn't absorb. I know so many people get shot and they go to the hospital. So she left me in the truck for about 15 minutes to cry, to scream, to do whatever I do.

DAVID RIDGEN: Michael found out what happened shortly thereafter.

MICHAEL ROZIK: I got a call from my sister and she goes, come home right now. Come home immediately something's happened. And I understood that there was a shooting down in the area and I assumed nothing of it. You would never fathom to think.

MAGUI ROZIK: By the time I arrived here the priest was here and he was with my daughter because he knew that we're going to figure out what's happening.

MICHAEL ROZIK: And so I come home and there's a car parked in the driveway, which made me think a little differently. And then I walked inside to see the detectives and that's when everything became real. I merely broke down of course, I was trying to handle the situation the best I could. I immediately started praying, you know, I didn't know what was going on.

MAGUI ROZIK: A horror movie.

DAVID RIDGEN: A horror movie. But one that might at least have a proper ending, if the police could catch the shooter.

SHEILA OGG: My name is Sheila Ogg, I'm a detective sergeant with the Toronto police. Back in 2010, I was working with the Toronto homicide squad and I was the lead investigator to the Emad Rozik murder.

DAVID RIDGEN: It seemed like the crime would be solved quickly. A shooting that happened in the middle of the afternoon, on video, with plenty of witnesses in the area.

SHEILA OGG: You started on we're going to get him to are you kidding? How can I be sitting here in 2016 speaking to you.

[Music: bluesy guitar]

DAVID RIDGEN: I ask Detective Sergeant Sheila Ogg to go back to the beginning.

SHEILA OGG: It was summer, it was July, it was July 6 as a matter of fact. And that you can see on the video but unfortunately there are problems with the video itself.

DAVID RIDGEN: The surveillance video police have been able to recover so far shows the suspect but not in the best detail. Body and character movement, as a whole though, are very clear.

SHEILA OGG: We did release the video to the public and we didn't get anything back from the public identifying this male. And don't get me wrong, tons of work that we're going to go back to when somebody will just come forward and say that is such and such.

DAVID RIDGEN: The Toronto Police homicide cold case unit is now handling Emad’s case. And with a renewed push to solve his murder, they've made available surveillance footage and photographs never seen before.

SHEILA OGG: And I want people to look at the way this man walks, the way he carries himself. He's got a swagger almost, I would say. Is it bowleggedness, does he have something? The way he walks, I think, is important.

STACEY GALLANT: So what was originally released in video is this.

DAVID RIDGEN: The case is currently being overseen by a detective named Stacey Gallant. I go to visit him to find out where the case is at and to get a chance to see for myself the surveillance video in full.

DAVID RIDGEN: So now what you're showing me is sort of surveillance camera on the outside of the car wash. And what we're seeing is a guy with a white t-shirt or a white shirt walking toward camera?

STACEY GALLANT: That's correct. You can see lingers around in there, he's got something in his hand, I believe it's a cell phone that he may be on.

DAVID RIDGEN: Now, what's the ethnicity that we’re thinking of this character here?

STACEY GALLANT: Male black, because he's wearing a blue jays hat. He's got three quarter length short pants on and Nike shoes, Nike runners.

DAVID RIDGEN: Is that a person sitting there?

STACEY GALLANT: Yes, there's someone sitting here and there's someone sitting here and they've been blocked out.

DAVID RIDGEN: Blurring?

STACEY GALLANT: Blurring, yes. It's, not that is blurry enough as it is. [chuckles] But there’s some blurring on there.

DAVID RIDGEN: We actually have witnesses to this. We have witnesses that know what this alleged perpetrator looks like?

STACEY GALLANT: Yes. So you can see who walks around the back here where the counter would be.

DAVID RIDGEN: Oh I can see fellow washing his truck.

STACEY GALLANT: Yeah, and there's a guy over there washing a white truck.

DAVID RIDGEN: He'll be a prime witness no doubt.

STACEY GALLANT: Well I think everybody that was there..

DAVID RIDGEN: I tried to track down some of these witnesses but without much luck. And police will not release their names to me. So back to the video.

DAVID RIDGEN: I’m going to watch this actual altercation again, Mr. Rozik and the perpetrator. They come out into the car wash and walk toward camera, or away from camera, depending on which one you're looking at. White t-shirt walking away, Mr. Rozik is on the phone when he comes out the door already. So already on the 911 call. Customer following, watching. OK. Little bit of a threatening move. Yeah. So he was backing up, as soon as the gun came out, Mr. Rozik started backing up.

STACEY GALLANT: He starts backing up, yeah. He sees it.

DAVID RIDGEN: He realized that there was something else about to happen.

STACEY GALLANT: And recoils, yeah. And you can see there’s two people directly behind Mr. Rozik as well, which are basically in the line of fire.

DAVID RIDGEN: Three shots were fired and just one hit Emad Rozik. I'm amazed that the witnesses behind Emad were not also hit. After shooting Emad, the gunman who is obviously comfortable in this role turns casually and walks outside.

STACEY GALLANT: And then this is the car we believe that he left in.

DAVID RIDGEN: Which just looks like an accord or something?

STACEY GALLANT: It's hard to say. That's another thing that we don't have an exact on.

DAVID RIDGEN: There's one other piece of evidence that's never been made public before — the shooter's voice.

STACEY GALLANT: And I've cut this a number of times.

SOUNDCLIP

SUSPECT: Stop following me. Stop following me. Stop following me. Stop following me.

STACEY GALLANT: So that's isolated the one portion of the offender or the person responsible saying “stop following me”. I'm hoping that someone may recognize that person's voice again and in conjunction with the images that we have of him on the video.

[Music: guitar riff]

DAVID RIDGEN: All it will take is one tip to solve this case. One person who recognizes a voice or his way of carrying himself moving, bringing out his gun. Someone drove the car with this man that day.

STACEY GALLANT: I think it’s not the first time that this person has tried to intimidate someone in a robbery type situation without using force. I think he felt that he could walk into any place and say, you know, give me your money, just give me what I want and I'll leave you alone. And I don't think he expected the resistance from someone at a car wash.

[Sound: car driving and blinker]

DAVID RIDGEN: I wanted to check out the car wash for myself to get an idea of the layout, how the shooting happened and the escape route. So I asked Michael Rozik to take me there.

DAVID RIDGEN: Starting to recognize it now?

MICHAEL ROZIK: Yeah, somewhat. It’s going to be on my right side I believe.

DAVID RIDGEN: It's been a long time since Michael has been to the car wash.

MICHAEL ROZIK: Definitely starting to recognize it now.

DAVID RIDGEN: And I suspect it was a lot harder on him then he lets on.

MICHAEL ROZIK: So this is it coming up right here. Building with the big red sign, white writing.

DAVID RIDGEN: We pull into a rectangular building with a small parking area. Cars have to drive to the back, entering from the rear of the building where the shooter walked out and come out the front where he walked in.

MICHAEL ROZIK: This is, this right here on the right. This is where I believe it happened.

DAVID RIDGEN: As I'm wiring up Michael to record our visit to the car wash, I notice a tattoo that he has on one of his hands.

DAVID RIDGEN: Let’s see this one on your hand again? I didn’t quite see that. Like father like son.

MICHAEL ROZIK: Yeah.

DAVID RIDGEN: And it’s a black and white tattoo.

MICHAEL ROZIK: Just a cross, yeah.

DAVID RIDGEN: Cross with, looks like smoke around it or something.

MICHAEL ROZIK: Yeah, kind of like that, just a background design. All of them I got after he passed away. And a little while after that I, in Roman numerals, I tattooed the date of his death on my ring finger. I decided to do it there because they say the ring finger is connected to the heart. And I got another one under my arm. [chuckles] There’s quite a few.

DAVID RIDGEN: Then Michael walks me through what happened to his father. From what I believe, it was about here or over there. He, male turned, he fired three shots. One went through the glass, one went I’m not too sure where the other one went. And the third one had, went right above his heart, hit a major artery and he bled out and passed away in the hospital not too long after. People kept telling me, you know, it was a miracle, it was a blessing that I hadn't been there for the tragedy in itself. Sometimes I think otherwise, sometimes I think if I was there I could've made a difference.

DAVID RIDGEN: What if Michael had been there when the shooter arrived? Would things have gone differently or would Michael have been hurt as well? These are just a few of the things the family thinks about, including whether police did everything they could back in 2010.

MICHAEL ROZIK: I have nothing against the police. I believe that they do their jobs the best they can but generally they say after 48 hours, your odds of finding a suspect, or finding anything let alone, is greatly reduced. And I feel within that 48 hours they hadn’t put in the work that they could have. Even then, there was witnesses, there could have been a sketch artist. Why did they not hire any sketch artist to draw down a face and put it in the news. That could have significantly helped at that moment in time. [sighs] They had the bullets lodged into the walls or, you know, and they had the getaway car on video. But they could have taken the photos, even a small screenshot of the license plate to a photo analyst to clear up the pixels or whatever they do I don’t understand.

DAVID RIDGEN: Michael and his family can't shake their unease, the sadness of knowing Emad’s killer is still free.

[Sound: bird noise]

DAVID RIDGEN: Beautiful bird.

DAVID RIDGEN: Back at the Rozik’s home, there's one more member of the family that I'd like to hear from.

[Sound: bird noise]

DAVID RIDGEN: His name is Petsi.

SOUNDCLIP

PARROT: I have a coo… cookie.

MAGUI ROZIK: Cookie. One?

PARROT: I have a coo… Bye.

DAVID RIDGEN: Petsi is an African Grey parrot. African Greys are smart, talented mimics. And often only bond with a single person, which can be problematic considering that in the wild, at least, they can live to be 80-years-old.

[Sound: rattling cage]

MAGUI ROZIK: He likes quinoa cookies..

DAVID RIDGEN: African Greys often outlive their owners, the people they've bonded with. And Petsi had bonded with Emad.

[Sound: bird noise]

MAGUI ROZIK: He's the one who bought the parrot.

[Sound: bird noise]

MAGUI ROZIK: He loved him, like, every night he bring him next to him in the sofa, he's laying down and he pet him for hours.

PARROT: Cookie.

MAGUI ROZIK: He taught him how to say Mr. Emad in Arabic, like, instead of saying just Emad, he’d say Emad Bidi, Emad Bidi. [chuckles]

DAVID RIDGEN: Tell me, does he speak in the voice of your husband?

MAGUI ROZIK: Yes, and he loves exactly. Medici and maybe it might be. I'm. Speaking the voice of yours. Yes. And he loves, exactly.

MICHAEL ROZIK: And he mimics the laugh, yeah. And he mimics the laugh.

DAVID RIDGEN: Really?

MICHAEL ROZIK: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

MAGUI ROZIK: But during the funeral it was very difficult for people to hear that, it was so hard, everyone was crying.

PARROT: I have coo..

MAGUI ROZIK: Everybody loved him. He loved my parents, he loved his parents, he was very kind. Like, my dad was handicapped. I used to go to work and he take care of him, take him to doctors with my mom, hold him. Like, he come home early and play game of cards with him. My dad spent two years just looking at these pictures day and night. He couldn’t say any word, he’s just like holding on his laps. He died. His father died last year and he’s the one who was hoping to catch the guy. Day and night he was wondering why. My life changed for sure, like, I’m never feeling that I can get back to a normal life.

DAVID RIDGEN: Detective Stacey Gallant believes that it's only a matter of time.

STACEY GALLANT: These type of things, you can't keep a secret forever. They always, they always come out and we've solved many cases like that, years and years later, through people coming forward and saying yeah, you know what, time's come. I know who was responsible and, you know, I've grown up and now’s the time for me to come forward, I can't live with it anymore. And hopefully an incentive of 50,000 dollars would put somebody over the edge if they're contemplating doing this.

DAVID RIDGEN: The case has witnesses, video and a voice. Is it enough?

STACEY GALLANT: Yeah, we know who did it. It's this person right here that's on video, that sounds like this, this is his voice, that was in a car with somebody else that looked like this. So we have a lot of factors there. But it's now to the point where we need some assistance, somebody help us out. Somebody tell us a name, we'll do the rest after that. Same goes like I say for DNA cases, we have your DNA. I know who you are. I know exactly who you are. I just don't know your name yet. I'm coming for you but I need to know your name.

[Music: ominous undertones]

AMT: We have been listening to the documentary I Need To Know Your Name. It was produced by David Ridgen, host of the CBC podcast. Someone Knows Something, as well as Stephanie Kampf, Sandra Bartlett and Chris Oke and The Current’s documentary editor Joan Webber. We are posting the video of the man police are trying to identify on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Now stay with us, the CBC News is next. And then, protesters at Standing Rock are celebrating what they're calling a fragile victory. I will speak with a woman who has been protesting for three months but is not leaving yet. She says the fight against the Dakota Access pipeline is not over until it's over. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM and online on cbc.ca/thecurrent.

[Music: Extro]

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'Still a lot of work to do': Despite Standing Rock victory, protesters stay put

Guests: Eryn Wise, Serge Simon, Bill McKibben

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, Kinder Morgan has the federal government's green light for the Trans Mountain pipeline project. Politicians, business and community leaders and activists get their voices heard in the news but we're hitting the road to hear directly from the pipelines’ next door neighbours, some of the people who live along the line, from Alberta to BC’s coast. But first, speaking of next door neighbours, what lessons are there for Canada in the Standing Rock protests?

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Well, before we do that, I was in Winnipeg last week for our second public forum on missing and murdered Indigenous women. Tomorrow we are bringing it to you in a special edition of The Current, recorded live in front of an audience in Winnipeg. The forum focused on policing in Indigenous communities. And one of the women from whom you'll hear tomorrow is Bernadette Smith. She says the police failed to properly respond to the disappearance of her sister Claudette Osborne in 2008.

SOUNDCLIP

My sister was 21 and we were being told that, you know, because she was 21, she's an adult. If she wants to be found, you know, she'll be found. Give it a few days, she'll show up. All of these different things we were told to, you know, and my sister, we think there were four things that kind of played into the way her case was handled. She was a woman. She was Aboriginal. She had an addiction. And she also had a police record. When they did release her picture, it was her mug shot, the picture that they took at the police station when she was charged with a crime. So when that was released, you know, to the media, it was very difficult for our family because, you were, there were comments like oh well, obviously that's a mug shot of her, she got what she deserved. You know, she had a criminal record, she put herself in that situation.

AMT: You can tune in tomorrow morning for a special edition of The Current from Winnipeg. Our second public forum on missing and murdered Indigenous women. And our public forums also include our virtual reality documentary Highway of Tears. Go to our website to download that or to our Facebook page to view it there.

[Music: guitar and piano riff]

AMT: You are listening to The Current on CBC Radio One, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Indigenous chants]

VOICE 1: We just got an announcement that the Army Corps of Engineers has denied, said no to the easement on the pipeline going underneath the Missouri River. And that's been an answer to our prayers.

Been denied.

[Sound: crowd chanting]

VOICE 1: Many people have said oh, you can't stop the pipeline. But we challenged a system and that big black snake is bleeding pretty bad right now.

[Sound: Indigenous song singing]

AMT: Well it was a decision greeted with cheers and jubilation by the several hundred protesters who'd been camped out for months at the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation in North Dakota. Using what they call direct action protests, civil disobedience, blockades rather than negotiations to fight the Dakota Access pipeline. The US Army Corps of Engineers announced Sunday it would not allow the pipeline to be built under Lake Oahe, the Missouri reservoir near the reservation. The oil pipeline would have cut through sacred land for the Standing Rock Sioux. Activists feared that a leak could contaminate the water in the area. Still, many protesters have vowed to stay in Standing Rock and the company building that pipeline, it's a 3.8 billion dollar project. It's set to span four states and cover 1,800 kilometres. The company says it is not giving up on plans to build its pipeline. Here's a recap of what led to this moment.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: drum beats]

VOICE 1: April 1st 2016.

VOICE 2: After the pipeline had been approved, 200 people from Standing Rock and other Native American tribes gather on horseback to protest the pipeline site at Cannonball, North Dakota. They set up camp the next day

VOICE 1: July 26th 2016.

VOICE 2: The US Army Corps of Engineers approves the final land easements and water crossing to allow the pipeline to go forward. A day later the Standing Rock Sioux tribe files an emergency injunction requesting a stop to all construction.

VOICE 1: August 2016.

VOICE 2: Thousands of American Indian nations and First Nations from Canada traveled to North Dakota to join the pipeline protest. It is the largest gathering in over a century.

VOICE 1: September 9th.

VOICE 2: The Standing Rock Sioux request for an injunction is denied.

VOICE 1: October 27th.

VOICE 2: About 140 protesters are arrested after a clash with police.

VOICE 1: November 25th.

VOICE 2: The US Army Corps of Engineers orders protesters to vacate their campsite by December 5th.

VOICE 1: December 4th.

VOICE 2: Pipeline construction is halted.

AMT: Well Eryn Wise is the media coordinator with the International Indigenous Youth Council, she has been living at the sacred stone protest for more than three months. We've reached her in Cannonball, North Dakota today. Hello.

ERYN WISE: Hi.

AMT: What has the mood been like since that decision?

ERYN WISE: You know, we were all pretty euphoric when we found out but everyone does acknowledge the reality that things could change with the next administration. And also that, you know, we aren't done here, there's still a lot of work to do. So the mood right now at camp is, you know, good job right now, we have seen a small win but we still have much more ahead of us.

AMT: So the decision by the Army Corps of Engineers is not a complete victory is that what you're telling me?

ERYN WISE: Yes, absolutely. Right now they have denied the easement, which simply tells Dakota Access that they cannot drill underneath the river. Dakota Access has already said that they are willing to pay the fine that they would incur from drilling underneath the river. They have full intention to drill under the water and continue ahead with this project.

AMT: And so if your fight is not over, what do you want to see happen?

ERYN WISE: The thing that we've been asking for this entire time is, you know, the death of the pipeline. We want to see the Dakota Access pipeline die. We don't want to see a reroute, we don't want it to affect another community. We want to see that, you know, people acknowledge the instability of pipelines and acknowledge how unsafe they are and stop putting them in the areas. That's our ultimate goal. Going forward right now in this moment, we want to ensure that everyone here is safe and that, you know, we see that Dakota Access is upholding, you know their federal responsibilities, that, you know, Morton County is held accountable for their brutalization of our people and that the United States Army Corps of Engineers, you know, continues to step in and stop this pipeline.

AMT: And when you talk about the brutalization of your people, are you talking specifically about what happened during the protests, are you talking historically?

ERYN WISE: Both. [chuckles] I mean, you know, this has just been a continuation of everything we've been suffering from for the last, you know, over 300 years. And I think that the United States government not only owes us in this moment reparations for everything that has happened to us, you know, as a unit, since, you know, we've moved out here to begin this protection but to also help us heal from the historical trauma that we've been suffering from for so long.

AMT: And do you see any movement on the side of the authorities to work with you on that front?

ERYN WISE: No, but I have a lot of prayer. And so did the people here in camp.

AMT: Now, the US Army Corps of Engineers says it will look for an alternate route. The Energy Transfer Partners, the company building the pipeline says the project will go ahead. What does that mean?

ERYN WISE: That means the people, you know, corporations do not respect the United States government, they respect corporate interests. And I think that that's because the United States has set the precedent with corporations saying hey, we're not going to honour the rights of the people in this country if, you know, the dollar amount looks right to us. And I think that they're definitely going to be eating their own words in terms of what they've allowed corporations to do going forward, especially with the new administration coming in because Donald Trump is invested in corporate interests 100 per cent.

AMT: So what do you think Donald Trump's presidency will mean for the future of a new pipeline, of new pipeline construction generally?

ERYN WISE: You know, we're going to have a lot of work to do, a lot of work on our hands because our president coming up is invested in the fossil fuel industry. And we need to ensure that we're all on our toes because he’s coming in and he's definitely going to start approving things that we've been working hard to make sure have been denied.

AMT: So where do you see the fight for Indigenous land rights and environmental protection headed over the next four years?

ERYN WISE: Nothing different that’s been going for the last 500. You know, we continue to stand against our oppressors and we continue to fight for our languages and our lands and our culture. It’s not anything different, it's just a continuation of everything we’ve been doing for so long.

AMT: Well, to what extent do you see this decision by the US Army Corps of Engineers as a partial victory for direct action?

ERYN WISE: You know, I would say that the majority of this has been non-violent direct action when, you know, we've shown people again in this country that you don't need to use force to make a statement. And I think now we have documentation of our prayer and our family in order to that. And I'm so grateful that there have been so many people documenting what it is we've been doing because, you know, we've been painted as the aggressors for so long and, you know, that's been the United States’ excuse for doing what they've done to us historically. And now there’s, you know, a mirror that’s kind of being held up. And I think that mirror is showing the United States how violent it is and how, you know, non-violent Indigenous peoples really are.

AMT: Ms. Wise, thank you for speaking with me today.

ERYN WISE: Yes of course, stay warm.

AMT: I guess they had heavy snow in the area last night. Eryn Wise, the media coordinator with the International Indigenous Youth Council, she spoke to us from Cannonball, North Dakota. In Canada many First Nations are watching what is happening in North Dakota as they react to the approval of more pipelines at home. Last week, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau green lit two new oil pipelines Kinder Morgan's Trans Mountain pipeline and Enbridge’s Line 3. That decision left many Indigenous groups outraged. Serge Simon is the Grand Chief of the Mohawk Council of Kanesatake, he is also the co-founder of the Treaty Alliance Against Tar Sands Expansion, a group which includes the Standing Rock Sioux tribe. And Serge Simon, the Grand Chief, joins us in Ottawa. Hello.

SERGE SIMON: Yes, good morning.

AMT: What message do you take away from the news that the Dakota Access pipeline has to be rerouted?

SERGE SIMON: Well, I hate to use the term but a state of execution. When Donald Trump comes in as President of the United States, there is the clear possibility that this could all resume and it might even be intensified, when we look at the police forces and their brutality.

AMT: You have said Canada could have 20 standing rocks, what do you mean by that?

SERGE SIMON: Well, you look at the grassroots, the grassroots are becoming increasingly more agitated and I think a little more frustrated because they're not really being listened to. So the Treaty Alliance is a treaty amongst chiefs, the legal governing bodies of all our respective territories. Now, we've taken a firm stance against the tar sands and the pipelines that would carry the product across the country. And we look at the correlation with Standing Rock and is it possible that this could happen here? You're absolutely right it can. And if individual communities decide to take action, we have what, a hundred and, almost 120 Chiefs across the country now, on the treaty. If I say 20, I might be conservative in my estimate.

AMT: What kinds of actions are you thinking of?

SERGE SIMON: Well, for the chiefs, I know that a lot of lobbying may be taking part in some of the demonstrations. And if the grassroots decide well, they're going to block roads or occupy government buildings then the chiefs will be there to lend support. But we do have this type of authority, as legal governing bodies, to look after the interests of our people and also to support each other when a particular project is harmful to the health of some of our members.

AMT: Your first nation was involved in the Oka crisis and the eventual standoff with the Canadian military. Are there lessons from how that unfolded about how anti-pipeline protests might go?

SERGE SIMON: Well, actually, I guess the lessons haven't been learned. When you listen to Minister Carr last week making a statement that he's willing to use the military on Dakota style protests, almost referring to Dakota as a violent protest, when they are the most peaceful protesters.

AMT: You're talking about the Natural Resources Minister Jim Carr?

SERGE SIMON: Yes. I think that was highly irresponsible of him. And myself, I would look for his resignation, or at the very least, have Prime Minister Trudeau distance himself or disavow what his minister said.

AMT: Kinder Morgan has signed mutual benefit agreements with 11 Alberta Indigenous leaders, 28 others in BC. You're from Quebec, why should your views take precedence over what those people on the actual route are thinking?

SERGE SIMON: Well, my views don't take precedent over anybody, my views are my views and I have close to 120 chiefs and it's growing. Now, if First Nations want to sign on the dotted line, that's fine, I don't take any exception against them. It's entirely up to them, they have the right to say yes, just as I have the right to say no.

AMT: And yet, could you see yourself clashing with other leaders?

SERGE SIMON: Differences of opinions, I think. I wouldn't necessarily use the word clash because we have more in common than we do in differences. There are many issues facing First Nations across this country and this is only just one. It's a major one but we are still unified on all the other issues, I believe that firmly.

AMT: And this week, I mean, you're in Ottawa this week for a meeting of the Assembly of First Nations. The Chief of the Assembly, Mr. Bellegarde, has made the point that he's concerned over what he calls a stigma attached to those who support economic development right now.

SERGE SIMON: No, no. Nobody's going against economic development for God's sake. We're saying, some of us are just saying no to the tar sands for obvious reasons. There are other First Nations in Alberta, women, children, elderly that are suffering from the contamination due to the tar sands.

AMT: And yet, when you move forward with this, you know, your view of economic development and another Indigenous leader’s view of economic development may be different, in terms of the jobs that the Kinder Morgan pipeline may create, that some people welcome, not all, but some.

SERGE SIMON: Mmhmm. Well, when it comes to what they see as major job creation, what I see as major job creation and the impacts of that economic development, we have differing views for sure. But you know what, I would be careful if I were those First Nations in Alberta. You look at the up and down prices of oil. One of these days it's going to go down and it's going to stay down. Now, you've got to start diversifying. And I'll tell you, eventually they're going to need friends. And I'll be there when that day comes and if ever they want to invest in the east and they want to come in, I would welcome them in Mohawk territory with open arms. They don't have to rely solely on oil. There's other alternatives where they can make a lot of money. They could create wealth and they don't need to go that route.

AMT: Grand Chief Simon, thank you for your thoughts today.

SERGE SIMON: My pleasure. Thank you very much.

AMT: Serge Simon Grand Chief of the Mohawk Council of Kanesatake, the co-founder of the Treaty Alliance Against Tar Sands Expansion. He joined us from Ottawa. Now, my next guest believes there are lessons for Canada in what is happening at Standing Rock. Bill McKibben is an environmentalist, author and the founder of 350.org, an international grouping of grassroots climate change activists. He joins us from Ripton, Vermont. Hello.

BILL MCKIBBEN: Hello there.

AMT: As you listen to my last guest, what were you thinking?

BILL MCKIBBEN: Well, it's been a fascinating conversation. I think the first thing to say is that one shouldn't for a minute underestimate the enormity of what’s happened this year and this week at Standing Rock. At least in the American context, this was the biggest victory that Native Americans have managed to win in a, well, probably in a century or more. And they did it with incredible unity and incredibly strict nonviolence and past a certain point, President Obama really had very little choice but to give in and at least temporarily halt construction of this massive pipeline. And the witness that was coming out of Standing Rock was just too powerful to stand up against.

AMT: Give us some more of that historical context. Where does that fit into the history of civil obedience?

BILL MCKIBBEN: Well, let me say first, where does it fit in the history of sort of the most shameful chapter of North American history? If you were standing up on the hill above Standing Rock these last couple of months and looking back at the vast encampment there at the confluence of the Missouri and the Cannonball rivers. If you could sort of pretend not to see the cars you would have been looking at a scene out of the 1840s. You know, teepees and the smoke of a hundred campfires rising into the morning sky. A remarkable scene. And what was most remarkable was that there were 300 Indian nations represented there. As you were just describing, you know, Indian country has the same fractious politics as any place else but not in this case. There were flags of all those nations fluttering along the drive into camp and it was a remarkable sight. And then huge parts of the rest of American civil society fell in behind the leadership of the Standing Rock Sioux, of the Indigenous Environmental Network, of Honor The Earth, of other groups, took good leadership and fanned out across the country had thousands upon thousands of demonstrations elsewhere. The key thing and probably a lesson for the Canadians, that from what you were saying they may not be learning, is that the severe repression of these peaceful people at Standing Rock was one of the things that turned the tide. The minute that the pipeline company used German Shepherds to attack them while they were sitting in, trying to save ancestral gravesites. Well, those pictures look an awful lot like the pictures out of Birmingham in 1963 from the civil rights movement. And I think that was the moment when the die was cast.

AMT: And so, the lessons are the persistence of the people who were protesting and the way they did it.

BILL MCKIBBEN: Nonviolent unity is an extraordinarily powerful thing. They were telling a deep true powerful story and eventually it got listened to. Now, there are plenty other stories too. And they'll come to the fore in other fights. I mean, as Canada tries to proceed with Kinder Morgan Trans Mountain, these kind of things, you know, there are other stories that are going to be told too. It's lost on no one paying close attention that Justin Trudeau is using the dark shadow cast by Donald Trump to try and get away with enormous hypocrisy up there, approving those pipelines a year after Canada led the fight to put 1.5 degrees as the target in the Paris Accords. I mean, look, he's not going to be, I mean, the worst leader in the world is going to be Donald Trump. That seems at least possible but the most hypocritical may be Justin Trudeau.

AMT: Well, Donald Trump just met with Al Gore on environmental issues yesterday. What did you make of that?

BILL MCKIBBEN: I think that's, I think he's a master of distraction and sleight of hand. You know, he's filling his cabinet with people who come straight out of the oil industry and people who are stone cold climate deniers. I think that there’ll be precious little to hope for in the Trump administration. I think we're going to have to take things like Standing Rock as examples of how to resist and fight at every turn.

AMT: My first guest, who has been at Standing Rock all these months, expressed her concern that in fact anything they are celebrating this week will be overturned by the Trump administration. Would you agree with that?

BILL MCKIBBEN: I think that's entirely possible. And I think that the Obama administration, to their credit, has done their best to make it difficult for the Trump administration. They didn't deny the permit outright. They said they weren't granting it and instead they started a long environmental review process. Now, Trump’s people may be able to just end the whole concept of doing environmental reviews on pipelines, they're very radical. And, you know, we saw at least a little bit of a dry run of that in Canada when Mr. Harper got rid of so many environmental laws and things in his effort to make it easier for pipelines to cross the country. He didn't win those fights. There's something ironic about the fact that it's taking a kind of combination of the NDP in Alberta and the Liberals in BC to accomplish what Stephen Harper never could. But I think that in both cases they’ll be met with serious resistance.

AMT: OK. Well, we'll leave it there. It is interesting because Indigenous leaders in both countries have never really recognized those borders and now that fight seems to be going cross-border.

BILL MCKIBBEN: Exactly right.

AMT: Thank you Bill McKibben.

BILL MCKIBBEN: Thank you.

AMT: Bill McKibben, author and environmentalist, founder of 350.org. He's in Ripton, Vermont. Let us know what you think, we are on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Email us from our site cbc.ca/thecurrent. Now next, we're going on a road trip along the route of Kinder Morgan's newly approved pipeline expansion. The CBC's Erin Collins traveled the route to gauge support for it in communities along the way, people with no clout but opinions. We'll hear what he found. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti this is The Current.

[Music: Extro]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current. We'll take you on a trip along the controversial Trans Mountain pipeline route in a moment. But I want to take a moment first to talk a little bit about Trevor Noah, host of The Daily Show. You may have heard our conversation yesterday here on this show. We talked about US politics, his upbringing in South Africa, the power of humour.

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TREVOR NOAH: My mother and I existed in a world where comedy was almost the foundation of all of our experiences. Comedy was the filter through which everything that happened in our lives was put through. And so essentially, nothing is funny but I find comedy makes it a lot easier to process things that are happening to you than a stern outlook.

AMT: Trevor Noah's new memoir is called Born a Crime. And if you missed hearing him yesterday, it's worth going back to listen. You can do that on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. You can download our podcast or tune in on the CBC Radio app. Here's what Laura Artibello thought of that interview, she tweeted, “Mr. Noah, you are the essence of human security. I hear soul, power, passion and peace in your voice.” Ellan Dickieson tweeted, “I love the concept of mutual laughter as an indicator of mutual agreement.” On Facebook, Appa Loosa wrote, “wonderful interview, I was very impressed with this young man, how he overcame institutionalized racism and oppressive poverty to rise above and become the person he is. All the while, maintaining focus, honesty, humour, intelligence and perspective in the light of fame and fortune. It is a rarity within the world of show business, kudos to his mom as well, an amazing woman.” Jeff Pappone said he wanted to hear more but not from Trevor Noah. He tweeted, “no offense to your book Trevor Noah, but after hearing your interview on The Current, I want to read your mom's autobiography.” Well, thanks for all the feedback on this interview. You can add to it on our Twitter, @TheCurrentCBC, on Facebook or email us from our site cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link.

Back To Top »

Meet some of the people living along the Kinder Morgan pipeline route

Guests: Erin Collins

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: old-fashioned tune]

This is the story of building the Trans Mountain pipeline. But first, boarding a train heading west and view for yourself some of the scenery, some of the obstacles in matching might with mountain, Jasper, pretty, a tourist's dream but pipeline builder's nightmare.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Well, you can tell sound technology has come a long way since the fifties. That is a clip from a 1953 promotional film touting the building of Kinder Morgan's Trans Mountain pipeline. That pipeline was built. 63 years later, it is once again front and centre. Last week as you know, the federal cabinet approved the expansion of the Kinder Morgan line, sparking both elation and outrage. Now, if completed, the expansion will triple the amount of crude oil that line carries from Alberta's oil sands to the BC coast. It's a big if because in order to break ground, Kinder Morgan must first meet 157 conditions and have 120 First Nations on board. That means the company has some heavy lifting to do before the shovels hit the ground. And a big part of that work will be convincing people who live along the lines route that the project is a good idea. The CBC's Erin Collins is just back from a road trip through some of the communities along that pipeline route, where he talked to people to gauge their opinions of the expansion. Erin Collins joins me from Calgary. Hello.

ERIN COLLINS: Hey.

AMT: Well, tell me about the route you traveled?

ERIN COLLINS: Yeah, well, I mean, I went right along the route that you heard in that video, just as it was completed way back in 1953. It starts in Edmonton area and runs to a facility in Burnaby. And it basically winds its way west through Jasper National Park and then south and finally west again, ending up on the on the shore of Burrard Inlet, where about five tankers a month pull in fill up and ship out. Of course, it's that tanker traffic on the BC coast that's really been the sticking point for this project and the focus of much of the opposition to it.

AMT: So last week, the federal government approved an expansion of the line. What would that look like Erin?

ERIN COLLINS: Right. Well, it's actually it's a twinning of the line. So a second line is going to be put down along the same route and the new pipe will be about twice as big as the existing one. So in a nutshell, it means that the new Trans Mountain line will kind of triple the amount of crude it carries from around 300,000 barrels a day to nearly 900,000. And the key for Alberta and Alberta's economy of course, is that that excess capacity would allow the province to sell its bitumen, its crude to Asia and hopefully get a better price, since they currently kind of only have the one customer and that's the US.

AMT: Can you actually see where the pipeline travels?

ERIN COLLINS: You know you can and this is one of the things that really struck me when I hit the road. Of course, pipelines are kind of everywhere in Canada but unless you're looking for the signs, they just sort of melt into the background. And that's not a metaphor, there are actual signs all along the route, really every 30 or 40 metres in some points, you can see these bright yellow signs that clearly say that the path of the Trans Mountain line runs below the ground there and warns people no digging should be done in the area. And what I found remarkable is that once I started looking for these signs, you know, they're really not hard to find. They're kind of everywhere, from fields in the Rocky Mountains to residential parks in the suburbs of Burnaby.

AMT: So you actually had your little, you had your route to follow, it was all marked out for you.

ERIN COLLINS: Yeah, it was right there, it was like a treasure map.

AMT: This is one of those energy projects that's taken on significance beyond the pipeline though, it's political, it's controversial and for a lot of people it's come to symbolize much more than a piece of infrastructure huh?

ERIN COLLINS: Yeah it really has. This is a project that's important to a lot of Canadians and we've heard what many people in this country think about this pipeline. But I kind of felt we were often hearing the same voices in this debate, we're hearing from politicians, environmentalists, energy executives, energy analysts, First Nation leaders involved in negotiating for access to their lands. And I want to be perfectly clear, these are the voices, these are very important voices and there's a good reason they've dominated the discourse so far. But, you know, many of my colleagues are working on stories about First Nations and the negotiations with Kinder Morgan. Those stories are going on right now. But I was really curious what the people who live right along the line think about. Those people that aren't maybe involved in direct negotiations, they just live there and go to work and go to school. So the idea was to sort of randomly stop in into the communities that the Trans Mountain line passes through right now and talk to the folks who actually live right next to it.

AMT: OK. So you began in Edmonton, where the line begins. Where was your first stop?

ERIN COLLINS: First stop was Hinton, Alberta. It's a town of about 9,000, about a three hour drive west of Edmonton. And Hinton is absolutely a town whose economy really relies on natural resources. And not just oil and gas but coal and logging as well. And when you're in Hinton, which kind of sits in this valley, you can really see the business of resource extraction right in front of you there. I mean, there's a logging operation right downtown and signs of the energy industry, like, are literally everywhere, they're on the vehicles driving by, they’re on the businesses and shop windows, everywhere.

AMT: And what did you find out about support of the pipeline in Hinton then?

ERIN COLLINS: Right. So not surprising obviously, with that much energy activity in that town, really really strong support. To get a sense of it, you just need to stop by the local curling rink where I met Brett Cieslikowski, he's the club's manager. Now, you know, Brett's a young guy, he's got a scraggly beard, he's wearing a flat brimmed Maple Leafs hat. You know, you could have run into him on College Street really, he's got that hipster vibe going. He's maybe not the guy you would expect to be running a small town curling club but he certainly understood the importance of energy to his club and his town.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: curling rocks banging]

ERIN COLLINS: I look around here, literally every rink has an energy company, there's energy banners all over. How important is the energy industry to Hinton?

BRETT CIESLIKOWSKI: It’s very important to us. They sponsor us, they're huge sponsors of our club, we may not be able to survive without their sponsorships. They're very important to our community and to this club specifically.

ERIN COLLINS: Pretty much everyone would know someone who works in the energy industry around here.

BRETT CIESLIKOWSKI: That’s, yep, half our, I would say half our men’s league, they all work in oil and gas. That helps towards the sponsorship obviously, because they work for those companies.

ERIN COLLINS: Sure. So we hear a lot about environmentalists and executives think about the energy industry and big pipeline projects. What do you think?

BRETT CIESLIKOWSKI: I think it's we should be all for it. I mean, it supports a lot of people's lives. That's how a lot of people in these rural communities make a living. And I think we should all be pro for it.

ERIN COLLINS: You're a pro oil and gas guy.

BRETT CIESLIKOWSKI: Yes, very. [laughs]

ERIN COLLINS: [laughs] Would you say most people around here are?

BRETT CIESLIKOWSKI: I would say yes. 100 per cent.

AMT: 100 per cent. So he says half the men in the league are tied to the industry.

ERIN COLLINS: Yeah.

AMT: Did he or anyone else you spoke to there have concerns about the expansion, environmental concerns, anything?

ERIN COLLINS: You know, they may have mentioned it but the concerns didn't sort of overcome the benefits of the project, so not really. I mean, the folks there have a lot of faith in the companies and the people that operate the energy infrastructure in the area. And in no small part that's because most of the people there know someone who does just that. So it's a more tangible relationship with the industry. And the other thing that I kept hearing from people was that even if there was a pipeline spill, you know, it wouldn't be as bad as a train derailment. And like most communities that are on this line, there's also a train line running through town and it's really apparent that many of the train cars moving through these communities are carrying oil. So it's not really a question of if you want crude moving through your community but rather how you want it to move through.

AMT: Interesting. So was that concern about oil moving by rail something you heard a lot of as you moved along the line?

ERIN COLLINS: It really was. I'd say the number one thing I consistently heard. In fact, just about an hour west in Jasper, that idea came up consistently and it was easy need to see why. The train line literally runs right through the middle of the town and the traffic was heavy and many of the cars were heading west and hauling oil.

AMT: It's not quite the tourism image of Jasper is it?

ERIN COLLINS: Yeah, it's not on the postcards. No, it's not the image most people get when they think of picturesque Jasper, you know, sitting smack dab in the middle of a national park. It wasn't something I connected with the town but Jasper is a bit more than just a tourism hub, it's long been the site of a lot of rail and pipeline work so, you know, as I was wandering around town, I ran into Terry Gieselman outside Jasper's post office. Now, Terry had just moved back to town to spend her golden years there. But she also raised her family here. Now Terry’s husband began working for Trans Mountain in the 1960s. And for part of his career, he was actually the guy who did the environmental checks on the area around the line.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: train sounds]

TERRY GIESELMAN: The day that a gentleman asked me if he was interested in working for Trans Mountain, he went to apply and it was one of the greatest days of our lives, I think. And we were immediately transferred down to the coast to Mission but we eventually got to Jasper 1961.

ERIN COLLINS: Do you think these pipelines are important for the economy and these communities?

TERRY GIESELMAN: Oh, hah, absolutely. I don't, I can't see what else would take the place of the pipeline in the community as Jasper.

[Sound: train passing]

ERIN COLLINS: Well, I think you’re looking at it, it’s that--

TERRY GIESELMAN: Railway. Excuse me. Yes, yes.

ERIN COLLINS: What’s your take on the environmentalists, the people that are really upset about pipelines and stuff these days? What’s your take on that as someone who’s been around them your whole life.

TERRY GIESELMAN: I don't understand why they aren't happy that there is such an input, the money that it brings into a community. It's a very good living for the people that work there, but it affects it, everybody in this small town of Jasper. And I think that they're wrong but then that's my view.

[Sound: train passing]

ERIN COLLINS: In case you missed it, that was the sound of the train actually moving by throughout that conversation.

AMT: Yeah, right there huh? You're close to that train.

ERIN COLLINS: You can’t miss it.

AMT: So Erin, in Hinton and Jasper, the people you met are strong supporters of the pipeline. Let's keep going along that route, where did you go in BC?

ERIN COLLINS: Well, my first stop was Blue River, it's about a three hour drive from Jasper. And I can't tell you how beautiful this drive is, it's winding highway that takes you past some spectacular vistas including the famous Mount Robson. Now, the first thing you'll notice though when you hit Blue River is that there's not a lot going on in Blue River. I mean, there's just one store, a legion, a few hotels that sort of cater to the local heli skiing company and a whole lot of for sale signs on the homes there. This is a town that has seen a lot of people move away, mostly looking for work. And one of the few steady jobs left there is at the Kinder Morgan facility. It's a truly beautiful part of the world that this town sits in and the people that have stayed really do love their town.

AMT: Who did you talk to there?

ERIN COLLINS: I ran into a young woman named Kasey Quinn as she was picking her son up from the local school. They were playing outside and Kasey was really born and raised in Blue River and recently returned home to raise her family. But as she told me, times have really changed since she went to Blue River school.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: water splashing]

KASEY QUINN: Do it again. Do it again, jump jump.

[Sound: dog barking]

MANY VOICES: Woo.

KASEY QUINN: When I grew up here, roughly with the school. There was about 75 kids in the school, now there's eight, I think, three kids that go to playgroup and that's it. We don't have anybody left in Blue River.

ERIN COLLINS: And why is that?

KASEY QUINN: No jobs. We have, you know, we have Mike Bigley helicopter skiing that offers many many jobs. We have Kinder Morgan that offers a few but I feel that there needs to be more jobs available, more places to rent available that this town could grow and could boom.

ERIN COLLINS: OK, so there's talk of expanding a pipeline, we're kind of standing, just we can't see it but we're standing near where it is somewhere. Tell me about the pipeline.

KASEY QUINN: It runs right behind my house. It runs right behind my son's school. It runs straight through Blue River. I'm all for the pipeline. I really feel that--

CHILD: Mommy.

KASEY QUINN: When it comes to Blue River, it'll bring--

CHILD: Mommy.

KASEY QUINN: A lot more people and a lot more jobs available. And I'm all for it. I, growing up in Blue River, you look around and you see beautiful trees, mountains, lakes and you don't see a pipeline underneath and it's huge. We live in one of the most beautiful places in the world and you would never know that that's what's underneath us.

AMT: Erin, I don't know we could even hear the echo there, you're saying it's a town where a lot of people have left when her and her child, there was a bit of an echo. Sounds empty.

ERIN COLLINS: There's not a lot there. And trying to find people to talk to is hard because, you know, there's not a lot of people there.

AMT: Well, she says that, you know, it's been there all along, she can't see it.

ERIN COLLINS: Yeah.

AMT: I guess people get comfortable with having it there, is that the attitude there?

ERIN COLLINS: Well yeah and I mean, like, the pipeline runs through her backyard and behind her son's school. And as far as I could tell, sort of the more interaction folks have with the industry and the line, sort of the less trepidation there was to see things expanded — they're used to it. I want you to meet Maymie Tegart though, she's the local schoolteacher in Blue River and I think she's a really good example of this sort of proximity affecting your view. She moved here from the coast to teach school this year and her view of pipelines changed in just the short time she's been in town. Have a little listen to a bit of our conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: child yelling]

MAYMIE TEGART: Good job.

ERIN COLLINS: So how long have you been here in Blue River?

MAYMIE TEGART: I've just been here couple of months. Well, I came in mid-September, after living on the coast for five-ish years.

ERIN COLLINS: OK. Tell me about your protesting days. You've actually protested a pipeline before?

MAYMIE TEGART: Well, I've definitely been around the Howe Sound protesting against the LNG, in particular, in Squamish, which is where I used to live. I don't think I was the most vocal protester ever but if I were to choose a side of the argument, say three or four years ago, I definitely would have been on the anti-pipeline side. And now it's, you know, you just have to look at it with more of a nuanced perspective I guess and not just jump on one side or the other because it's a very complicated issue. Living here has definitely broadened my perspective a little bit. Meeting people whose jobs rely on this and the reality of just knowing that oil needs to transport somehow. And in this area in particular, it's hard walking along the train tracks and literally seeing oil drip off the train.

[Sound: child yelling]

AMT: So the train we heard in Jasper continues running right through Blue River as well?

ERIN COLLINS: Exactly. If you actually look down the street from the school and there's not a lot of streets in Blue River, you'll see the train line right there. And Maymie commented on, you know, how surprised she was to see how many rail cars full of oil moved through her new hometown, I don't think everyone appreciates how much oil is moving by rail.

AMT: Mm. So far we're getting the message as you travel along, that those along the route support the pipeline. I thought it was controversial.

ERIN COLLINS: It is, it just depends entirely on where you are. I found that sort of once I made that turn south and I got as far south and west as Kamloops, opinions really started to vary a lot more. Now, Kamloops, it's a bigger city than my earlier stops, so obviously its economy certainly depends on the energy industry as well but nothing like a place like Blue River or Hinton but it's something that people are used to. And there is a lot of support but you also start hearing more concerns, they start entering the conversation more. And that variety of opinion is really evident at the local dog park. It's a really beautiful spot but also a place that backs onto the existing path of the line. Literally across the road from the park, those yellow Trans Mountain signs can be seen sort of snaking their way down an arid gorge towards the dog park. It is right there. But, you know, it always has been.

AMT: And so what did the people out with their dogs have to say about that?

ERIN COLLINS: Well, at the park I found everything from absolute support to complete opposition to the line and everything in between. Robin Dykes is a dog walker that uses the park every day. She was wearing a knit beanie and some cool shades and Robin is a really good representation of that mix of opinions all wrapped up into one conflicted person. And keep your ears open for the train rumbling by here as well, as we chat.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: dog barking]

VOICE 1: Oh is your dog named Molly?

VOICE 2: This is Molly.

ERIN COLLINS: It is amazing how close that line is right there.

ROBIN DYKES: Pretty scary when, you know, you think about it and not a lot of people are that close. They can’t fathom it really. It’s out of sight and out of mind.

[Sound: train rumbling]

ERIN COLLINS: But really, it's hard not to notice it when it's like, right there. We’re literally within a couple hundred feet. If anything, how could.

[Sound: crashing noise]

[Sound: train running by]

ERIN COLLINS: What do you think would happen? Imagine if a pipe bursts up there.

ROBIN DYKES: Well, this place is notorious for slides, and you know you’re going to get a big slide and then you got the train tracks. It’d be a dangerous situation. I'm not against pipelines, I just want them to assure and somehow give us a safety net, so we can have more faith in them. If they want us to believe it's as safe as they're telling us, they should give us an incentive by putting, like, a big pocket of cash aside and saying we're putting this aside so you trust us in knowing that money is there if needed for environmentalists or who has to be involved in the cleanup.

AMT: Interesting, an interesting caveat there at the end. So you're starting to hear some worries about the safety of a pipeline. Does that opposition pick up as you head closer to the coast?

ERIN COLLINS: Bingo. And once you get to the actual end of the line, the opposition is pretty much absolute. Burnaby and the Burrard Inlet specifically, is that endpoint. And it's easy to see why the people who live there would be against the expansion. I mean, Kinder Morgan operates a huge tank farm for storing oil on the top of Burnaby mountain and their terminal is right down on the banks of the inlet next to a nature path and in a residential neighbourhood. And I mean right next to a neighbourhood.

AMT: And so that's where the strongest opposition comes from. From environmentalists, Indigenous groups, municipalities in the area?

ERIN COLLINS: Mmhmm. Absolutely.

AMT: And they're worried about the increase in oil tankers that the project will bring, right? The ships coming in and out.

ERIN COLLINS: That's the number one concern. Absolutely.

AMT: But you weren't talking to the activists, who were you talking to?

ERIN COLLINS: No, as I was poking around the neighborhood in Burnaby, I found Art Hilstad. His house is right next to the line’s current route and from his backyard, he can see where tankers would pull into the inlet to fill up. I mean, there's Art's fence and right next to it, that's where the current line goes. Now, Art has an absolutely stunning view of the inlet. There's a beautiful little island in the distance, mountains in the background. And on this day, if I squinted a bit, I could also see a tanker in the distance. And of course, if the pipeline is expanded, Art probably won't have to squint to catch a glimpse of one on most days. And that is why if there's a ground zero for the opposition to this expansion it might be Art's house, where he has lived for more than 50 years. Now, I caught up with Art, who's 86-years-old, while he was up in a ladder trimming the tree in his front yard and he wouldn’t even let me help.

SOUNDCLIP

ART HILSTAD: Put all of that into the [unintelligible]. I just cut a bit at a time.

[Sound: clanking noise]

ERIN COLLINS: Now, we're standing in front of your house, right? You literally back onto Burrard Inlet?

ART HILSTAD: Yes.

ERIN COLLINS: And so, tell me a little bit about what you think of the proposed pipeline expansion?

ART HILSTAD: Well, not very much. I'm totally against it.

ERIN COLLINS: It’s like literally in your backyard.

ART HILSTAD: Yeah, yeah. They put a way bigger dock in and there’d be room for three ships, three big ships and they’d be bigger than the ones that are coming now.

ERIN COLLINS: So do you worry about, is it the tanker traffic that bothers you?

ART HILSTAD: The traffic and you can't do that kind of thing without too much noise either, I don't think anyway.

ERIN COLLINS: Right.

ART HILSTAD: There’d be a lot more noise. But imagine that many ships. From what I have heard there’ll be three of them in the dock at a time. There’d be three out there waiting to come in just out on the inlet there. And then soon as they’re gone and apparently they are loading them real quick. I can't say exactly how long it’ll take them, but if they got three ships loading at one time, then you can imagine.

ERIN COLLINS: So do you worry about spills and the environment?

ART HILSTAD: Oh yes, yes. Spills, you know, they said oh, nothing worry about the spills. Well, the spills are, they are a pretty regular basis. Even the last one which was a tug.

ERIN COLLINS: Right.

ART HILSTAD: And how many thousands of litres of fuel in the water.

[Sound: cutting branches]

ERIN COLLINS: Now, the spill that Art's referring to there is the is the spill off Bella Bella, further north on BC’s Central Coast, where tens of thousands of litres of diesel fuel from a sunken tugboat contaminated the waters there.

AMT: So he's echoing the worries about tanker traffic with a very personal vantage point. Was that true of most people you spoke to in Burnaby?

ERIN COLLINS: It really was. It was really all about protecting the water and the coastline, that was the real priority for people there. For example, I didn't hear a lot about the line increasing emissions from the oil sands, which is certainly a worry for many of the environmentalists who oppose the line but it's not something I heard in Burnaby. For those that live next to the line in the Burnaby area, it really was the tanker traffic and the risk of a spill that worried them. And fair enough, those are very valid worries if you live next to the spot where those tankers are going to be mooring.

AMT: And so very tangible concerns both on all sides as you go into these communities. What do you take away from this trip of yours along that pipeline route?

ERIN COLLINS: Yeah, I think for me what this trip really crystallized was how you feel about this project really does depend on where you live along the line. I mean, there's a striking difference between the view of people in Alberta and the BC interior and those on the coast. So, you know, now that Kinder Morgan has the green light to twin this Trans Mountain line, those who live next to it are just going to have to sort of wait and see if they actually will.

AMT: It's interesting we keep in mind that how the impact and the perspective on impact changes as that pipeline moves.

ERIN COLLINS: It really does. It was the thing that will stick with me.

AMT: Erin Collins, thank you.

ERIN COLLINS: You bet.

AMT: Erin Collins, senior reporter with CBC national news in Calgary. To see pictures from that road trip and meet some of the people he met along the way, visit our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. That's our program for today. We're going to leave you with music from the Indigenous DJ trio A Tribe Called Red. The Ottawa-based Juno award-winning performers are from tribes that stood in solidarity with the Standing Rock protests. This is RED featuring Iraqi-Canadian hip hop artist The Narcissist and US rapper Yasiin Bey. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, thank you for listening to The Current.

[Song: A Tribe Called Red]

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December 6, 2016 full episode transcript

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