Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2016

The Current Transcript for December 5, 2016

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

I went on stage because it was just male bravado. It's like either you go up, or you guys are all scaredy cats. So I went up and I just spoke, just spoke and I spoke some more. And people laughed and so I carried on. And they laughed some more. And that was it. And I've been doing that ever since. I still don't know what I'm doing.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Comedian and satirist and Trevor Noah likes to tell the story of how he fell into performing. But his was anything but a charmed life. He was born into the last decade of South Africa's brutal apartheid system—a mixed race kid whose very existence was a crime under the laws of the state. A kid whose black mother had to hide him for fear he'd be apprehended by social services. So poor at one point that his mom cooked worms for protein. Somewhere along the line, he learned the power of humour and though he is far from his South African start, what he learned then about race and how people see each other informs his work now as the US prepares to transition to a Trump presidency. Trevor Noah on everything that has changed and what remains the same in just a moment. And when his doctor first asked Edward Thompson to be part of a study for the drug MDMA and the treatment of PTSD, he was a man with nothing left to lose.

SOUNDCLIP

Well, to say I was a shell of my former self would be a huge understatement. I was on my way to death.

AMT: But three treatments under very controlled circumstances have changed his life. Researchers say pure MDMA—not the stuff on the street called ecstasy—has the potential to change the brain to create conditions to allow psychotherapy to help those suffering from PTSD. We'll hear all about that in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Back To Top »

Trevor Noah on growing up mixed race in South Africa, 'a product of my parents' crime'

Guests: Trevor Noah

SOUNDCLIP

Jacob Zuma was supposed to be the craziest president South Africa ever had. It was the only reason I voted for him. It was just madness. I look at him. He’s come in and he wears a tie and suit. He’s stopped singing. He’s got a cabinet that looks like they know what they’re doing. He’s going to fight corruption. And he even fired Manto Tshabalala-Msimang.

[Sound: Crowd cheering and whistling]

I was expecting a madman. A crazy guy. Someone who was just going to throw the country away. And look who I got? Someone who’s actually doing their job. I can’t believe it. Once again, the ANC has failed to deliver.

[Sound: Crowd laughing]

AMT: Well, in 2009 Trevor Noah was a stand-up comedian who found inspiration in the likes of South African President Jacob Zuma. He has travelled a long way since then but his humour is as biting as ever. Trevor Noah is now the host of The Daily Show, known for its political satire and ruthless jabs at the highest echelons of power in the US. But it was in South Africa that Trevor Noah grew up and learned about family, prejudice and survival, and he writes about that journey from childhood to adulthood in his moving new book, Born a Crime: Stories From a South African Childhood. Trevor Noah is with me in our Toronto studio. Hello.

TREVOR NOAH: Hello and thank you for having me here.

AMT: Did your comedy always have that political edge to it?

TREVOR NOAH: Well, you know what’s strange? I completely forgot about this clip. It's so funny that you played it and I remember this and I go wow, I never thought of myself as somebody who would be talking about people's cabinets and their appointments. But the honest truth is, I guess I have been a person who has been immersed and interested by politics for a lot longer than I would like to believe. And that's because in South Africa, politics and pop culture have been interlocked for so long that you don't see it as being a political person. You know it's not dissimilar to what's happening now in the US. Now, conversations about Trump and appointments and cabinet members and secretaries of state—these have become common parlance everywhere in the streets and there was once a time when politics was seen as an elite conversation to be having. So in essence, I guess this has always been my world.

AMT: Well, so did you ever think American politics would parallel or match then, what you left in South Africa?

TREVOR NOAH: Not at all. Not at all. I think I always suffered the illusion that American politics was far removed and far superior to the world I had come from. You know the glossy image that you are shown of America when you live in South Africa—many third world countries for that fact—is one that just seems to be beyond reproach. And so when I came to the US, I was like who am I to comment on a system that is far superior? Who am I to comment on a world where politicians are impeccable in all decisions they make? And then I came to realize once you get into it, it's like most places in the world— politicians be politicking and there's always cracks in the facade.

AMT: Just the other day you did an interview with a conservative pundit by the name of Tomi Lahren. Am I saying her name right?

TREVOR NOAH: You're saying it correctly.

AMT: She has called Black Lives Matter the new KKK. We're going to play just a short clip from that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

TOMI LAHREN: It's controversial but I think there are some things that need to be said. When the Black Lives Matter movement is going out with signs saying “Fry ‘em like bacon, F the police,” when they're going out saying if you see a white person, target them. That is happening, Trevor. That happened in Milwaukee not too long ago. That is happening. So when that now becomes the narrative and you're starting to loot, burn and riot, what did the KKK do?

TREVOR NOAH: That is not—look, we'll go around in circles. Did you say what did the KKK do?

[Sound: Crowd yelling]

TOMI LAHREN: No. What did they do? When you’re saying—listen. Listen. Trevor.

TREVOR NOAH: Wow.

TOMI LAHREN: Trevor.

TREVOR NOAH: Wow.

AMT: Trevor Noah, your pushback in that whole conversation received a lot of very positive coverage in the United States. Why do you think that is?

TREVOR NOAH: I think there are a combination of factors. I can’t speak to all of them because I don't know what everyone's mind was processing when they were watching that. I do know maybe one of the biggest was one of the biggest reasons I did it and that was that we have been told post the Donald Trump election victory, that there is a world that as a progressive or as a liberal or as a coastal dweller, you're not acknowledging that there is a bubble that has been unheard. And so then I set out and I said to myself well then, let's hear this world. I was always aware of this world. I never thought of myself as somebody who is unaware of these arguments or these positions. But I think for a lot of people, the space where people argue ideas versus personalities has become one that has diminished throughout the campaign in America. Something that I didn't even really realize until this interview and that was if you look at Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, a lot more time was spent it feels—it feels like a lot more time was spent on personalities. Hillary is a nasty woman. Donald Trump is a bad man. He has a vulgar personality. Hillary is deceitful. She is a crooked person. As opposed to: this is my policy, these are this person's policies, this is what I believe in, this is what I think they will do, this is why my ideas are better for America. It feels like less time was spent on that. And you know there were varying factors around it but maybe one of the things that connected with people was the fact that I was not fighting with a human being about their very existence but rather about the way they feel about things and views that they hold. And my guest on the show was doing the same to me.

AMT: You were born during apartheid. You know what institutional racism is. What do you think of the fear some people have that Donald Trump has unleashed a suppressed bigotry that will damage American Civil Liberties and create a sort of police state?

TREVOR NOAH: I think to a certain extent, a lot of those fears are founded in an idea that hasn't been created out of thin air. When you think about it, if you take Donald Trump at his word, then Donald Trump is a person who will creates a deportation force that will deport 11 million undocumented immigrants in America. Donald Trump will build a wall to separate the United States and Mexico. Donald Trump will bring back stop and frisk, which has been shown in many ways to particularly target and negatively affect black communities and most importantly—and one of the most frightening—is to be an arbiter of justice with his law and order campaign. And America right now is still dealing. Walter Scott's jury said that they don't think they could reach a verdict on a case that you would think would be open and shut: a man being shot in the back posing no danger to a police officer caught on tape. And yet even in a situation that seems as obvious as that, the law seems to swing one way and this was during a time when Barack Obama's government and the federal oversights of Justice Departments was at its highest. With Donald Trump's appointments, people like Jeff Sessions for instance, a man who has been shown repeatedly to you know favour the striking down of voting rights to support police departments at all costs, that is a very worrying place to be in because you realize that America could take many steps backward in truly finding a place where justice is equally accessible for all of its citizens.

AMT: It's worrying.

TREVOR NOAH: It really is.

AMT: I want to talk about you. Your childhood in South Africa wasn't very funny. Your new book begins with a dramatic story of you being thrown out of a moving car as a child. What happened?

TREVOR NOAH: Well, what happened was my mother and I found ourselves on the wrong streets at the wrong time and we got into the wrong taxi. And my mother and the taxi driver had an altercation and you know the taxi driver felt he needed to teach my mother a lesson and so he threatened to kill her and myself. And unfortunately at the time, we were living in a country where that was a distinct possibility. This wasn't hyperbole. This wasn't an issue where you know we could dismiss it as a non-threat and you know my mom did what she had to do on the day and that was throw me and herself out of a moving car to get us out of that situation. And what is funny is what you say, there's nothing funny about any of these stories, but my mother and I existed in a world where comedy was almost the foundation of all of our experiences. Comedy was the filter through which everything that happened in our lives was put through. And so essentially nothing is funny but I find comedy makes it a lot easier to process things that are happening to you than a stern outlook.

AMT: Why did you start with that story?

TREVOR NOAH: I started with the story to grip you. I started with the story in the book to rope you in. I love stories that are gripping and entertaining.

AMT: You roped me in. It worked.

TREVOR NOAH: Well then, it worked. Yeah. And that's why I did that. I was trying to write a book that was great. I was trying to write a book that was truthful. But I like being entertained. I grew up reading books about everything and I always loved books where I felt like the author was trying to keep me engaged as opposed to just you know dropping giant chunks of information onto the page. And so yes, my story exists in the framework of apartheid South Africa but that's not what my story is only about. There are many different themes. There are many different ideas and I try and share all of those in the book.

AMT: Tell us about your mother.

TREVOR NOAH: Wow. Where do I start? My mother is a South African Xhosa woman. Beautiful both inside and out. Not perfect but genuinely the most amazing person I've ever had the privilege of knowing, you know? She grew up in a world where she had to fend for herself. She experienced the most extreme forms of poverty and yet through it all, consistently and stubbornly strived to achieve more than she was told she could. And I'm a product of that powerful woman. I'm a product of a woman who lived in a country where being black and being a woman was the lowest form of human being you could be. I'm the product of a woman who despite what she was told, sought out employment that was reserved for white people. I’m the product of a woman who raised a child on her own in a society that said marriage came before everything. So I am a product of someone who is truly amazing.

AMT: Where did she get the courage to be so independent and free spirited at a time of such oppression?

TREVOR NOAH: I genuinely don't know and I don't think my mother possesses the answer. Now that my mother, you know once my mother became religious, she will credit it all to God. And you know I cannot judge or question her because I cannot see a direct correlation between anything else in her life and how my mother turned out. So if my mother chooses to give credit to the divine, then who am I to dispute that?

AMT: Tell us about the relationship between her and your father.

TREVOR NOAH: Well, my mom and dad had a wonderful relationship. It was an illegal relationship because during apartheid, interacting or you know any form of interracial meet ups were illegal, especially those of a romantic kind. And that's what my mother did. My mother refused to—you know my mother refused to buckle under the pressure of the government. My mother refused to accept laws that she did not believe in that were oppressive and so they said that you could not be with a white man and my mother said well, that's exactly what I'll do then. And that was really the theme of my mother's life. If you told her she could not do something, then she would set out to do the very thing that you said she could not.

AMT: And as you say, your very birth in South Africa was a crime.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah. Which was a—I was a product of my parents’ crime. I was a product of them disobeying the law. And there were prices that we paid for that. But at the same time, I feel like the rewards have far outweighed those and that's thankfully you know partly due to circumstances because the country changed so much.

AMT: Your mother never wanted a full time relationship with your father. She never wanted to marry him.

TREVOR NOAH: No, she did not. No.

AMT: But he wanted to be part of your life.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah. I was lucky my dad chose me. You know? My mother never ever wanted to burden a man with me. My mother wanted a child. She did not believe that she needed to now be involved with somebody for the rest of their lives if she didn't want to be involved with that person. And so at the time when she made the decision, my mother said to my father hey, I would like you to help me make this child. Her very literal words were: I don't want you to be a father. I just need your sperm. And you know and so my father obliged and luckily for me, he chose to be a part of my life. And so even through the toughest times, he still made an effort to be a part of my life as much as the laws at the time would allow.

AMT: Your father's German-Swiss, correct?

TREVOR NOAH: Yes. That's correct.

AMT: And so given that your very existence was proof of the “crime,” what kind of relationship did you have to have with your father and mother in public?

TREVOR NOAH: Well, it was one that I didn't think was strange at all. My dad could never be seen with us in public. My mom and I had to maintain the facade of her being my caretaker. You know my maid, my nanny. She wouldn't try and be seen as my mother in public.

AMT: Because your skin is lighter than hers.

TREVOR NOAH: Exactly. And so because of how meticulous apartheid was, it wasn't just a black-white system. It was a system where black people existed and white people and then if there was a person who had a skin tone that was between that, they were called coloured. And then there was Indian. And every single group was given a different you know area to live in, a different access to basic human rights. And so very you know fundamentally, myself, my mother and my dad were considered three different types of citizens under the law.

AMT: So you couldn't even go outside and play with your cousins in public.

TREVOR NOAH: Well, I could but my grandmother was always afraid that that would draw the attention of the police and half of the time my grandmother was hiding me. So when I was very young, that was something my grandmother was constantly wary of—was that the police would stumble upon me and see me as a child of a race that shouldn't exist in the area that I existed in.

AMT: And then what would they have done?

TREVOR NOAH: They would have taken me to an orphanage probably and then found a way to get me to a family that matched my skin tone—which sounds ridiculous but I mean this is a story that we've seen all over the world. It wasn't just South Africa. I mean Australia had similar laws you know with their native population, Aboriginals, at the time. You know they said that if any Aboriginal had a child, that child could be taken away and given to any white family in Australia. And so South Africa, it's no mistake that South Africa went to Australia—one of the many countries they went to to study different forms of segregation, oppression and racism.

AMT: Remind us what year you were born in.

TREVOR NOAH: I was born in 1984.

AMT: Seems like too recent for that, huh?

TREVOR NOAH: It genuinely does.

AMT: It’s just a reminder of how long the apartheid system. And you call it aparthate.

TREVOR NOAH: Yes.

AMT: For a reason. Yeah.

TREVOR NOAH: I believe one of the biggest successes of aparthate, one of the biggest successes of that world, wasn't just segregation and oppression. It was separating people, convincing people that they are different. And that is one of the easiest ways to control human beings, is to convince them that they are different—even black people by the way—and separate them into groups that now spend more time trying to fight each other than realizing that they all share a common goal.

AMT: You have a white father and a black mother. You identify as black. What was it that made you want to identify as black?

TREVOR NOAH: It was nothing that made me want to identify. It was realization. You grow up in a world not thinking of it as a world of colour. I grew up in a black family. I grew up with a black grandmother. I grew up you know living and speaking African languages, eating African food. In my life there was no other option. There was no other world. I would venture into my father's world and get a glimpse of another world. But I never was under the illusion that that was my world. And so what happened is over time and that happens when you grow up and especially when the country changed, the effects of segregation do not go away overnight. You know. That's what a lot of people don't seem to understand. Just because you turn off the tap of oppression doesn't mean that the water doesn't remain. And so now, I was growing up in a country where black and white people and Indian people and coloured people have been separated for so long that that was the only way they knew how to exist. So you can imagine now I go to a school where they say well, everyone can mix the way they see fit. And I look in the school yard and everyone is in the pockets that the government has designed them to be in. The white kids are in one corner, the black kids are in another corner. And you see that in America as well. You go to American schools, especially universities, and I'd be shocked when I'd walk around and you'd see how in many universities, the people have segregated themselves into their groups. You know it's an effect that lasts for a very long time.

AMT: You know Trevor Noah, I'm going to have to stop you there. We have to take a break for the news. Stay here. We're going to talk more on the other side of the newscast. If you have tuned in partway through our conversation, you probably recognize the voice. I'm speaking with Trevor Noah, host of The Daily Show. He is with me in our Toronto studio. We're talking about his upbringing in South Africa. He has written a new book, a memoir. It's called Born a Crime: Stories from a South African Childhood. Stay with us. The CBC News is next. And then we're going to be back with more with Trevor Noah on his family and the power of humour. If you missed part of this, you can catch it on podcast. But stay with us right after the news. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM and online on www.cbc.ca/thecurrent.

[Music: Sting]

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, the illegal party drug MDMA is showing so much promise in the treatment of PTSD it could soon become a prescription drug. We'll talk about that. But first, he was born a crime and is brimming with stories about growing up in apartheid South Africa. More with the host of The Daily Show. If you are just joining us, Trevor Noah is with me in studio in Toronto. His new book is called Born a Crime. If you missed the first part of our conversation before the news, find it on our website: www.cbc.ca/thecurrent. Download our podcast. Listen on the CBC Radio app. Trevor Noah, we were talking about what it meant to have a black mother and a white father and you were making the point that the perception of race for you as a mixed race kid affects how people see each other. Even your grandmother saw you differently. She was afraid to punish you with the same kind of whooping she'd give your cousins. What did she tell your mom?

TREVOR NOAH: My mom believed that I was—and she was correct—I was a terror as a child. So my mom believed that you know my behind shouldn't be devoid of a spanking if my behaviour warranted it. And my grandmother was often the person who was charged with disciplining the children because you know parents would be away working. But my grandmother could not hit me. She could not lay a hand on me because fundamentally she believed what she had been taught and that was that I was this little “white child” who was subject to a different punishment. She was afraid of my skin. She’d see when my mom would hit me and she'd say to my mom, she'd be like I don't know what to do. She says his skin, it becomes blue and green and red and yellow. She says ooh, I can’t hit that child. I can’t hit that child. And my mom would laugh and say no, you must hit him and my grandma would say no, no, no, I don't want to go to jail. Don't involve me in these things. And so my gran, my own grandmother—who loves me dearly to this day—you know would just never, never, never, never venture into that world.

AMT: And she would tell your mother when she spanked your cousins, they stayed black.

TREVOR NOAH: Yes. Yeah. That's what my gran said. She said I understand. She would say to me ooh, I understand black children. You hit them, it’s the same. They stay the same. She says no, no, no. Your child is—mm mm, I can't do that.

AMT: sThere's another story that speaks to how people see people when it comes to race. Tell us the story of your friend Teddy and the day the two of you were chased by the security guards in the mall.

TREVOR NOAH: Well, I was a really, really naughty child. You know? It's funny how many people have said to me they bought my book and then read it and then bought another copy for their moms just so that their moms would appreciate them more. [laughs]

AMT: Because you were a hellion.

TREVOR NOAH: I was the definition of a delinquent. I was uncontrollable and I had a penchant for shoplifting. You could not stop me from doing it. I grew up very poor and I very early on learned that a lot of the things that I didn't have access to I could make accessible to myself. And so I had a friend growing up in the early years of high school and his name was Teddy. And Teddy and I would spend weekends together and sometimes would go to the mall and that's what we'd do. We would shoplift and most of the time it was food items. You know? It was very seldom something else but it would be food. And one day we were caught shoplifting but we made our escape and Teddy got caught, I didn't. And the police, when going to the neighbouring schools trying to find the perpetrators that existed on the CCTV tape, couldn't identify me because they were looking for a white kid because on a black and white camera feed, they couldn't tell that my race was not what they were looking for. Black and white camera can only see black or white. So then what do you do? You know as a black and white camera, what happens when there is someone who is half black and half white?

AMT: Because Teddy had told them—wouldn't tell them who he was with.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah.

AMT: He absolutely refused to turn you in.

TREVOR NOAH: Yes.

AMT: And they actually showed you the footage and you knew that was you.

TREVOR NOAH: I did.

AMT: And they were looking at you, looking at the footage and they demanded that you tell them who that white boy who hung out with Teddy was.

TREVOR NOAH: Which is insane, isn't it? But that's where you realize how powerful the construct of race is. It's something that doesn't exist and yet it is something that we believe in.

AMT: I didn't know until I read your book that under apartheid in South Africa, people would apply to, as you say, be promoted to white.

TREVOR NOAH: Yes. That was always an option in South Africa. You could—full intents and purposes—be promoted or demoted in terms of your racial classification. So a white person who became a little bit too dark or whose hair became a little too curly could be pulled into question and people could say that you are secretly what was termed a coloured person. My skin complexion. And then if that happened, they would conduct what they called the pencil test and they would put a pencil in your hair and if the pencil fell out, you were white and if the pencil stayed in your hair, then you are now coloured and that meant you weren't allowed to live in the white area. You couldn't work in the job that you were working in that was reserved for whites. You all of a sudden had your life—and this would happen to families—this would happen where siblings were separated by the law. And the inverse could happen as well. You know because one of the keys of oppression is to convince a select few that they deserve to be exempt from that oppression, that they are beyond reproach or if they conduct themselves a certain way, then they will be removed from that place. And so that's what would happen. So people would aspire to be white.

AMT: It's so interesting to hear your personal story and understand that time through the prism of your own experience. At one point you and your mom moved to a coloured community called Eden Park.

TREVOR NOAH: We did.

AMT: And you say living there taught you and I'm going to quote you here: “It's easier to be an insider as an outsider than to be an outsider as an insider.”

TREVOR NOAH: Yes.

AMT: Explain that.

TREVOR NOAH: I have found that when you walk into a space where people know you to be an outsider very easily, whether it is physically, whether it is culturally, whatever it is. If you walk into a space—so let's say as a black person, you go into the world of white people. It is not to say there will be no challenges but there was a good chance that people will accept you knowing that you are an outsider. They will go okay. This is not a space you would normally be in what we can accept that you are from another place. What I found interesting in life was how people who regarded you as the same as them would react to you when you weren't seeing to be trying to be part of the tribe. And that is what you see in the world is if you are—for instance, I remember in school let’s say—if you were a black kid who liked skateboarding and punk rock music, it was the black kids who would ostracize you the most because they felt like you were rejecting the very essence of what being black was. You know if you were a white kid who liked hip hop and listening to music that your other friends weren't, all of a sudden it was the white kids who were shunning you. And I was always interested. I was always intrigued by that because I felt that I grew up in a world where culturally, I was not coloured. I look like many people in South Africa where I shared nothing in common with how they were brought up or how they sound or how they have lived or who they are. And those people would often times be the most offended by me not accepting that I was a part of that community. You know how can you say you're black? You're not black, you're coloured and I’d say I'm black. They go no, you're coloured. Why don't you speak like us? Why don't you live like us? And I’d say because I am not. And it was so interesting to me that that was one of the places where I experienced the most resistance.

AMT: And at some point you realize that you could be accepted if you used your humour, if people laughed.

TREVOR NOAH: Humour is a powerful tool. When people are laughing, they are agreeing. It's an implicit agreement, isn't it, when you laugh with someone? Because it means you share something without even realizing it. You have both laughed, which means you both think that something is funny, which means that comedic premise is something you both believe it. And that's what I've always enjoyed about laughter is it doesn't need thoughts. You don't have to ask people hey, do you agree with that person next to you? No. Just tell them a joke. And when they both laugh, without even realizing it they've shared in an agreement.

AMT: You sort of learned that from your mother too, right, because your mother would laugh hysterically at something.

TREVOR NOAH: She would.

AMT: She’d take you right to the edge and you'd think what's my mom doing? And then she would laugh.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah. My mom loved using humour. Still does. I think we both inherited that from her father, my grandfather, who was a really funny, boisterous man. You know his name was Temperance Noah. And if ever there was a comedian who never, you know would rather used the world as his stage, that was my grandfather.

AMT: I want to ask about your stepfather. A man named Abel. How did your mom meet him?

TREVOR NOAH: My mom met Abel at a workshop. She, you know had a car that was horrible. Always broken down. And so, broken down cars need mechanics. Abel was a mechanic and that's how my mom met the man who would become my stepdad.

AMT: What did you think of him at first?

TREVOR NOAH: Well, at first I had no or very little opinion of him because I mean he was just a man that seemed like a friend of my mom’s. As a child, you don't understand romantic relationships for the most part, especially those that extend beyond your parents.

AMT: When did you first realize he was a dangerous man to be around?

TREVOR NOAH: I think it's in the small things. You know it's in somebody's eyes. It's in seeing how they get drunk. It’s in seeing how they handle their anger. Small things like road rage. Just a small thing like that. Seeing how somebody is in the traffic I always think is a great indicator, you know a good warning sign. And it was just little small things that made me uncomfortable in living in the same house.

AMT: You write that you went from apartheid to a different kind of tyranny—that of an abusive and alcoholic man.

TREVOR NOAH: Yes. That's exactly what happened. I feel like that's what happens to many people in the world. So many people are suffering oppression on multiple levels. You know? There are people in America who have a system that is weighing down on them and has weighed down on them for a very long time. And then in their own homes, there are many women who have to contend with another system that is oppressing them, that is abusing them. There are many children that go through the same thing. And I was no different. And honestly, the reason I tell these stories is because I grew up in a community where it was unfortunately all too common.

AMT: And Abel, he did beat your mother. She went to the police. How did they respond?

TREVOR NOAH: They responded the way police unfortunately often respond. And that is to squash the situation and you know tell people to go home and sort it out. And that's something again we see in too many parts of the world: domestic abuse treated as a squabble. Domestic abuse treated as something that should be dealt with in the home. Why would you involve the public? You always hear people saying that this is between the two of you. Why are you making this a public thing? It's embarrassing. And that shame is often what perpetrators of abuse use to keep their victims in hiding.

AMT: You draw a real distinction between corporal punishment and the kind of thing that Abel was doing in your house because your mom believed in corporal punishment for a long time. I think—what was the quote she said? “I beat you because I'm trying to save you.”

TREVOR NOAH: Yes.

AMT: “Other people will beat you because they're trying to kill you.”

[Crosstalk]

TREVOR NOAH: They’re trying to kill you. Yeah. My mom was very religious. And you know in the Bible they say, spare the rod, spoil a child. And you know, my mom believed in that. And over time her views have evolved because my mom is progressive whether she likes to admit it or not. And you know again, we grew up in a world where that was normal. Many of us of a certain age remember a world of corporal punishment. Every country has had a different history with it but everyone remembers a time when that was seen as the only way to discipline a child. The difference is though there are parents who use corporal punishment in their view as a way to display to a child the consequences of their actions. And then there are people who use corporal punishment as a way to take out their frustrations and their anger on children and other people. And unfortunately my stepfather, at times you could feel fell into the latter.

AMT: You tell an incredibly heartbreaking story of when you lived in a garage that was the family business with your mom and your stepdad and your brother at that time?

TREVOR NOAH: Yes. My younger brother at the time, yeah.

AMT: Andrew, right?

TREVOR NOAH: Yep.

AMT: Yeah. Tell us what happened.

TREVOR NOAH: Oh, well, so many things that happened. I learned how to repair cars. [laughs] I learned how to sleep in cars. I learned the most efficient manner to take a very cold shower. And yeah. I mean wow. I learned basic accounting. I learned how to run a family business. And I also had to learn how to eat worms for dinner—caterpillars more specific—I mean when you say worms to people they think of those little slimy things. But we ate Mopane worms for a time because we went through an extreme period of poverty and the only protein we could afford was a dried worm common to South Africa known as the Mopane worm. And that's what we ate.

AMT: And your mom and stepdad slept on a roll out mattress with your brother and you.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah, on the floor.

AMT: And you would go into the back seats of cars.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah. Which is a lot more comfortable than it seems, you know? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish to go back, but the one skill I received from that is I'm really good at sleeping in any position anywhere. On an airplane, I sleep. On a train, I sleep. Backseat of a car, front seat of a car, I sleep.

AMT: You didn't want the kids at school to know though.

TREVOR NOAH: No, of course not. Well, as kids, the last thing you want is other kids to know that your world is not perfect. You know as kids we don't want other kids to know that we don't have money. We don't want other kids to know that our families are fighting. We don't want other kids to know anything. That's humans though, isn't it? I mean that's what we do every day. It's why every single “how are you?” is often responded to with “fine.” And yet most of us are not fine.

AMT: Hmm. I want to ask about your stepfather some more. At some point, you just can't be there anymore. And your mom agrees it's time for you to go I guess live on your own and by this time you're how old?

TREVOR NOAH: Probably 17, 18 at the time.

AMT: And while you are living on your own with your cousin, you’re rooming—

TREVOR NOAH: Yes.

AMT: You’ve got a roommate. Your cousin. Your stepdad commits a horrible crime against your mother. What does he do?

TREVOR NOAH: Well, he shot my mom. And this was after she had left him and she was moving on, starting a new life. And he came over and it's a tale that's far too common, really. You know it's the story of the drunken husband or the jilted lover who finds the liquid courage and finds a weapon and exacts their revenge on a family. And that's what he tried to do. And he shot my mom and my brothers and extended family got away but my mom did not.

AMT: What kind of injuries did she have?

TREVOR NOAH: She was shot twice—so once in the lower torso and once in the head.

AMT: He tried to shoot her many more times.

TREVOR NOAH: He did.

AMT: What happened?

TREVOR NOAH: But the gun jammed. No one knows why. And that's one of those instances where my mom invokes the divine, you know? So my mom goes hey, she says that's my God looking out for me. And I mean I was—I've always been one of those people who's skeptical of religion the way it is applied. So you know I'd say to my mom why didn't your God block all the bullets then? You know? And my mom would say well then, what's the point of faith? I mean you can’t block all the bullets, just the bullets that are going to kill you.

AMT: Because one of the bullets went in through the back of her head.

TREVOR NOAH: Yes.

AMT: And it just missed her—like it just missed everything that would have killed her.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah.

AMT: And it came out. Like it was extraordinary.

TREVOR NOAH: It really was. Still to this day.

AMT: No one can explain it.

TREVOR NOAH: You know people will use the phrase luck. That's what people say. But if you're religious, you say a miracle.

AMT: And when you get to the hospital, you are told that they want to move your mother out of there. Tell us that story.

TREVOR NOAH: Well, I mean it's a tough story to tell, I mean succinctly, but really it was a case where my mom didn't have health insurance at the time and ironically, she had just cut her health insurance which she had had for years because she just realized she never got sick and never went to the hospital. And so as fate would have it, the year that she cancelled her health insurance was the year when she needed it the most. So at the hospital, they said they couldn't help her. And you know they're going to turn her away and then I was left in the situation where I would have to you know I would have to pay. And it was an insane story. I mean I don't want to spoil it for anyone who is still going to read the book. But yeah. It's an interesting place to be in, you know in a situation like that, when someone's life is in your hands.

AMT: How's your mother today?

TREVOR NOAH: She's fantastic. As fantastic as ever. My mom always says to me, she goes you know, now I'm as cool as all those rappers that you love ‘cause isn't that what it's all about? Getting shot and living to tell the tale?

AMT: What does she think of your book?

TREVOR NOAH: She hasn't read it. My mom doesn't want to read the book because she says she doesn’t want to spoil the ending and the joy for people when they tell it to her. So she’s just as quirky as I think everyone else in the family and I love that about my mom.

AMT: She must be proud of you though.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah. She really is.

AMT: So you're a guy who came from a poor background, discriminated against, lonely kid. You grew up surrounded by, subjected to violence. Now you’re this famous guy, successful comedian, television host. Is there a message you hope people can learn from your story?

TREVOR NOAH: Wow. Is there a message? I guess the only lesson I really wish people would learn is one that my mom taught me and I continue to try and learn as I experience and live life: try to be more than you think you can be. Try to do more than you think you can do. Try and exist in a space that is always slightly uncomfortable because that is truly where you'll find your growth. And really, that's what I learned from my mom. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for her. And her goal has always been to put our family in a place where each generation has more opportunities than the next.

AMT: And so as you look for your future hurdles, how much of that is caught up in who you are—Trevor Noah, the man we see on television and Trevor Noah, the regular guy in his regular life. Where are your hurdles right now?

TREVOR NOAH: [laughs]

AMT: Are they with Donald Trump or are they somewhere else?

TREVOR NOAH: No, they're everywhere. They're everywhere. And I mean every day. I try to exist as Trevor Noah everywhere because otherwise it would be so tedious. I would be tired all the time. The best advice I got or some of the best advice I got was from Jerry Seinfeld who said, he said I've never worked a day in my life. And I said what do you mean, Jerry? And he said I've never worked a day in my life. He said I do what I love so I haven't worked ever. And that's what everyone should be trying to achieve. It seems impossible because we're taught that financial gain and emotional success only come from certain spheres. But that's not true. I didn't think comedy was a thing. In fact, when I started doing comedy in South Africa, it was completely my hobby and it was not something that you could earn money from and that is what I did—I pursued my passion. And I don't think enough of us do that. Pursue your passion. Enjoy it. Have fun. Revel in it. And you will find often times, your passion will reward you in ways that money cannot. And so that's a space I try and live within. So when you go the Trevor on TV, the Trevor in real life, yes, I mean accounting for different moods and different settings, I'm essentially who I am and I try to be more of myself as I grow.

AMT: Well, your book is wonderful. You not only make me laugh, your book, you make me cry and you make me think. So thank you.

TREVOR NOAH: Thank you so much and thank you for having me.

AMT: Trevor Noah, the host of The Daily Show. His memoir is called Born a Crime: Stories from a South African Childhood. And he joined me in our Toronto studio. We've got a little more of Trevor Noah on The Daily Show last week with his advice on how the media should handle US President-elect Donald Trump.

SOUNDCLIP

The truth is the news also needs to adapt. One thing the news could try is treating Trump like the toddler he is. You don't argue with a toddler if you want to win. Don't amplify the toddler’s voice because you'll just get trapped in the toddler’s world. Rather, just keep asking the toddler to elaborate because logic is the downfall of every toddler. Well, that and shoelaces. But logic mostly.

[Sound: Audience laughter]

Yeah. You don't fight. The toddler says, “My dad’s the strongest man in the world,” and you're like, “Oh yeah? What makes you say that?” “Well, the other day, he fetched something on the top shelf.” “Is that tall or strong?” “That’s tall.”

[Sound: Audience laughter]

“Have you got another example?” “The other day he picked me up.” “Have you seen anyone else pick their kid up?” “Yeah.” “Still think your dad’s the strongest?” “No.”

[Sound: Audience laughter]

“I don't think I should be president.” That’s what you got to do.

AMT: Trevor Noah. Stay with us. Coming up next, from party drug to potential prescription drug. I'll be speaking with a former firefighter with post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, who says taking MDMA helped him regain control of his life. That's next. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One, on Sirius XM and online on www.cbc.ca/thecurrent.

[Music: Sting]

Back To Top »

'I have no doubt it saved my life': MDMA drug helps former firefighter with PTSD

Guests: Edward Thompson, Dr. Michael Mithoefer, Andy Parrott

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current. I was in Winnipeg last week and we held the second of our town halls on missing and murdered Indigenous women. This one specifically focused on policing. We're going to be airing this forum this coming Wednesday on a special edition of The Current. One of the women you will hear is Bernice Catcheway. She told us about her hurt and frustration with the way police are handling the case of her daughter, Jennifer. Jennifer's been missing since 2008.

SOUNDCLIP

And when I went to report Jennifer missing at the portage detachment, the RCMP detachment, the officer there, he said oh, how old she? I said she just turned 18. And he said oh, she’s 18? Give her a week. She’s on a drunk. She’ll be back. We stopped relying on RCMP, on officials. They say we're with you. We're standing with you. Well, I just don't see them standing with us. I never get a call from the RCMP. I never get a call from who’s on her case, Jennifer's case, the detective. Nobody calls me. Nobody calls us to tell us where they're at. The day I heard that Jennifer's case was a homicide case, was on the news. The 6 o'clock news. That's where I found out they said Jennifer's case was a homicide case and I was sitting watching the news. I said what? Nobody cared. Nobody phoned me. Nobody knocked on my door to tell me Jennifer's case was a homicide case. I heard it through the news.

AMT: And you can hear more of what Bernice Catcheway had to say and the police response because the police were there in the audience. Tune in Wednesday for a special edition of The Current from Winnipeg—our public forum on missing and murdered Indigenous women.

[Music: Bridge]

AMT: You are listening to The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM and online on www.cbc.ca/thecurrent. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Well, on to our next story. It's about MDMA. Now that's usually thought of as a party drug, but it could be on its way to becoming a prescription drug.

SOUNDCLIP

MDMA is an inside drug and you get an experience of self-validation which is tremendously healing.

AMT: Well, when many people think of MDMA, they think of rave culture—flashing lights, the pulsing music, people dancing for hours high on ecstasy. But researchers are exploring how the pure form of this illegal recreational drug could work for something very different: the therapeutic treatment of PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: MDMA showed me my potential—what I could feel, who I could be, the way that I can relate to other people and the way that I could feel about them and about myself.

VOICE 2: It was amazing. It was like I got to do actually like almost brain surgery on myself and go into my mind and see the thought patterns and belief systems that had kind of calcified in there and rewire them to the highest truth.

AMT: Well, those are stories from a documentary about MDMA. Last week the US Food and Drug Administration gave the green light for large-scale, third-stage clinical trials of the drug that will look at its effectiveness and side effects when treating PTSD. That is a step toward MDMA’s approval as a prescription medication. Now here, the first Canadian MDMA-assisted trauma therapy trial just wrapped up with positive results. It is part of an international series of studies involving 107 people worldwide. We'll hear about the trials. First I'm joined by Edward Thompson. He's a former firefighter. He participated in the US study using MDMA as a form of therapeutic treatment. Edward Thompson is in Charleston, South Carolina. Hello.

EDWARD THOMPSON: Hi. Good morning, Anna Maria.

AMT: What was your life like before you took part in this MDMA therapy trial?

EDWARD THOMPSON: Well, to say I was a shell of my former self would be a huge understatement. I was on my way to death. I was not able to respond to any conventional therapy. I was beginning to abuse the prescription drugs that were given to me for anxiety and other purposes. I was dying. And I was losing my family very fast.

AMT: You were losing your family how so?

EDWARD THOMPSON: Well, they were amazing. They stuck by me for the whole thing and they never did leave my side. But they were starting to give up and they were starting to lose hope as was I. And nothing was really working.

AMT: How did you get PTSD?

EDWARD THOMPSON: Well, it's complex. I was probably beginning to have the seeds of it planted as far back as my first years in the fire service, just from responding to terrible incidents where over and over again I was exposed to awful situations—having to notify family members of loved ones passing after seeing just some pretty awful things. But I think the most significant source for me would be having to respond to my own family. Both of my twin girls had severe cardiac and neurological issues that have since healed but I had to do CPR on my own little girls and had to respond, drive the fire truck to my own house about 10 times. And it was awful. It wasn't until my daughter started getting better that I really started to lose it.

AMT: And during this time that you had PTSD, what other treatments had been tried with you?

EDWARD THOMPSON: Lots of different treatments—everything ranging from antidepressant medications to conventional talk therapy. There was a host of different therapies that were applied. A lot of it was focused on helping me stabilize and go from minute to minute at first and nothing was really helping me move forward.

AMT: So when you first heard about MDMA as a treatment, what did you think?

EDWARD THOMPSON: I was somewhere between skeptical and extremely hopeful. I know that's a large range but I was skeptical because nothing had worked, but I was desperate and kind of grasping at straws for something that could possibly help me get my family back and help me get my life back. I had to go into it willing for it to work for it to work in the long run.

AMT: So what did you with MDMA? What did the therapy entail?

EDWARD THOMPSON: It entails you basically lying down on a futon for—you're there for 24 hours but you lie down and there's a therapist on either side of you. And they help you calmly and quietly walk your way through whatever your brain with the context of the medication allows you to start exploring—things that you had not been able to even comprehend prior to the medication working in the system and allowing their therapy to really succeed.

AMT: How did it feel to you?

EDWARD THOMPSON: Well, it didn't feel like a party drug, I'll tell you that. [chuckles] It was a lot of work. It was at some levels just the right amount of numbing to be able to talk about things. But it also created a trust which was very imperative to the therapy. It was really very non-psychedelic. I mean it was a little bit calming. Sometimes you put on eyeshades and headphones and you lie back and you just sit there and don't even talk for a few minutes. It was an interesting experience. I mean outside of the context of the therapy, I would probably never—I can tell you for sure—I wouldn't ever want to try the drug again. But it was a overwhelmingly positive experience for the three sessions I attended.

AMT: Had you ever tried it before?

EDWARD THOMPSON: No, I had not.

AMT: How was that therapy different from other therapy you tried?

EDWARD THOMPSON: The biggest significant difference is that it worked. [chuckles] It allowed me to open up. It allowed me to take part in the healing process whereas in other cases, it almost felt like a blame game in some of the other therapies. And I was able to finally have compassion for others again and it also opened me up to having compassion for myself and not just feeling so judgmental of myself for how I had been behaving so selfishly, as I previously understood it. That was very significant for me. Unfortunately because of the PTSD, there is a lot of self-judgment. This prevented a lot of that.

AMT: And how has your life changed since the treatment?

EDWARD THOMPSON: Well, it's amazing. I am now able to you know enjoy moments with my children again. My family is still together. My marriage is stronger and healthier than it's ever been and I'm happy again for the first time in years. I truly couldn't be happier. And I have no doubt that it saved my life.

AMT: When did that therapy end?

EDWARD THOMPSON: My last medicated session I believe would have been June of 2015. And my one year follow up—there were multiple sessions in between—but my one year follow up was June of this year, of 2016.

AMT: And your life has changed.

EDWARD THOMPSON: Well, there were immediate changes from the first session on but it was a process from there and the work continued. But this was like the giant that got the boulder rolling just over the top of the hill so that it could start rolling down the hill. And I still went to therapy for a while afterwards but conventional therapy then began to work. And that was I think crucial. So it really did work.

AMT: Edward Thompson, it's good to hear about your experience. Thank you.

EDWARD THOMPSON: Thank you.

AMT: Edward Thompson, former firefighter who took part in that study on MDMA’s use in the treatment of PTSD. He's in Charleston, South Carolina. Well, Dr. Michael Mithoefer is a psychiatrist studying the use of MDMA in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder. He is conducting clinical trials in the US including the one in which Edward Thompson took part. Dr. Michael Mithoefer is in Charleston, South Carolina as well. Hi.

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Hi. Good morning.

AMT: What is MDMA?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: What is MDMA? Well, it's quite a unique compound. It's structurally related to amphetamines but it's quite different and it affects a number of different systems in the body. It causes a lot of serotonin release, as well as other neurotransmitters and some hormones such as oxytocin. So it's quite a unique complicated drug but it seems particularly well-suited for helping people with PTSD.

AMT: How is it different from ecstasy?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Well, ecstasy is supposed to be MDMA. So the problem with that is a lot of ecstasy that's sold as ecstasy or Molly has many other things in it. A lot of it has no MDMA at all, so that's the real difference, is the purity.

AMT: Okay. And of course your study is with pure MDMA, not the illegal stuff on the street where people don't know what's cut into it.

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Right. That's correct.

AMT: How does MDMA then help people with PTSD?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Well, we still have a lot to learn about exactly how it does that but we also do know a lot about what it does in the brain. And what we're observing is that you know we know that MDMA does decrease activity in the fear centres of the brain and increase activity in the higher processing centres. And that fits very well with what we're seeing in the studies, that it seems to give people a period of time in which they can face their traumatic memories and talk about them, feel them, process them without being overwhelmed by emotion but without being detached from it entirely as well and also without being sedated. So people have actually sometimes even better memory of the events when they're taking MDMA.

AMT: So we heard a little bit of that from Edward. He was saying that he wasn't as defensive when he was on the drug.

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: That's right. He described it very eloquently, I thought. And you know one important point to make is this is not a take home drug. People don't take it on a regular basis. They only receive it three times in an all-day therapy session under direct supervision with the therapist.

AMT: Tell us a little bit more about that because it's even more than one therapist, right?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Yes. Our model is a male and female, male and female co-therapists. In our study, that was myself and my wife. And in the other studies, we've had similar teams in Canada and elsewhere in the United States and in Europe and Israel.

AMT: So what do they do? They take the drug. Do they get high? What happens?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Well, they certainly experience a shift in their mind state. I don't think getting high is the best description for that. As Ed said, it's not just that people get blissed out and everything's fine. We've had a number of people have said things like I don't know what they call this ecstasy. So it doesn't make it easy to process the trauma but it makes it possible for people who haven't been able to before. So you know Ed also described the daylong session has periods of when we encourage people to focus inward on their inner experience without talking and then alternating that with periods of talking to the therapists and both seem important. And it is also true, as Ed pointed out, it is a process. It's not just what happens in the MDMA session but the MDMA seems to catalyze the therapeutic process that then continues to unfold.

AMT: So am I right in understanding, it allows them to feel that they can trust enough and not be afraid in order to actually have sort of a deeper therapy to actually work through some things with therapists or by themselves, but with the therapist present?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: That's right. Yeah.

AMT: And so when you're there with them and it's 24 hours, tell me a little bit more about that process because you're obviously making sure that they don't go anywhere until the drug wears off.

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Right. And we're not with them for the whole 24 hours. You know we have several preparatory sessions to prepare people for their experience and then the therapists are with them for eight hours during the day then they spend the night in the clinic with a night attendant so that the participants are there 24 hours. We come back the next day and meet with them again and then we have follow up sessions after that until the next MDMA session which is about a month later.

AMT: And he said three sessions with MDMA. That's about right?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: That's right, yeah. Our model is that it's not something you have to take on an ongoing basis.

AMT: And so the psychotherapy is as important as the drug here obviously.

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Yes, that's true. It's different from a lot of drug trials. We're not simply studying MDMA. We're studying MDMA-assisted psychotherapy.

AMT: And so you're talking about the upsides. Compared to other psychiatric drugs, tell me a little bit more about the advantages of this.

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Well, I think in the case of PTSD, there are the two approved drugs for PTSD are both serotonin reuptake inhibitors and other drugs are used, but most psychiatric drugs are aimed at decreasing symptoms directly and they can be helpful sometimes. But this is more a model of helping people get at the root cause of the PTSD to have a therapeutic process and then the symptoms go away by virtue of the underlying problem having been addressed.

AMT: Have you seen negative reactions?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: We've seen certainly people have side effects. Like any drug, MDMA has side effects and has risks as well as benefits. So you know that is true. People have time limited side effects such as tight jaw or decreased appetite. MDMA does always increase pulse and blood pressure. So we screen people carefully to rule out cardiovascular disease because it raises blood pressure and pulse, kind of like vigorous exercise so that's a medical concern that you have to screen people for. And then it also—these sessions can stir up a lot of emotions and you know people can feel more anxiety temporarily in the course of getting better. So that's why it's important that there's good preparation and good follow up.

AMT: In these trials, were there an equal number of men and women?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: They were not. There were more women than men. We actually tried to get as equal ratios we could. But in the first study, the first day there were more women than men and the second study which was veterans, firefighters and police officers, there were more men than women. So it’s a fairly good balance.

AMT: And so the FDA has now approved more trials. Why are these—why is this so significant?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Well, just a technical matter—they actually haven’t approved the additional trials yet because we haven't submitted the actual protocols. But what's so significant is they've given us clearance to proceed with submitting the other protocols, which I'm sure we will get approved. So the importance is it could have been that they would have required more phase two trials or more safety studies before the phase three could start but they did not. So we're cleared to go forward into phase three.

AMT: Okay. And the Canadian trials are part of this, again, this series of trials worldwide.

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: That’s right.

AMT: There’s six Canadians involved.

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: That's right. One of the phase two trials in this series of six was in Vancouver and there will be a phase three site in Vancouver as well and possibly another site in Canada.

AMT: Okay. And given that psychotherapy is such a big part of this, if everyone had that level of psychotherapy, would they need the drug?

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: Well, we looked at that comparing MDMA to an active placebo. So in our first study here in Charleston, people either got MDMA or an active placebo with all the same therapy including the all day sessions, the same approach in those sessions. And what we found was that at the end of two, after two sessions with either MDMA or placebo, 83 per cent of the people who got MDMA no longer met criteria for PTSD as opposed to 25 per cent who got all the same sessions with without MDMA.

AMT: Okay. Dr. Mithoefer, we have to leave it there but thank you for speaking with us today.

DOCTOR MICHAEL MITHOEFER: You're welcome. Thank you.

AMT: Dr. Michael Mithoefer, a psychiatrist conducting clinical trials using MDMA as a treatment for PTSD. He's in the US. He's in Charleston, South Carolina. Now some in the mental health field see promise in this. There are others who are already raising concerns about the drug itself and the message clinical use could send. Andy Parrott is a professor in the department of psychology at Swansea University who studies the recreational use of MDMA and he joins us from Swansea in the UK. Hello.

ANDY PARROTT: Hello. Yes.

AMT: So what do you think of this trial that he's describing?

ANDY PARROTT: Well, I regard MDMA as an extremely powerful drug and we have lots of recreational users who take it to get positive effects and they often end up with problems. And I think we've got similar things in the clinic. So I'd like to quote from the one paper by Greer and Tolbert, two of the first psychotherapists to use it in the clinic. They gave it to 29 volunteers in Canada and they said in a paper—I'll quote directly—“Every subject experienced some benefit from MDMA during the sessions.” And in the same paper, they say, “All subjects reported some undesirable experiences during or after the sessions.” My concern is MDMA is such a powerful drug, it can lead to all sorts of release of materials which may be quite difficult to control.

AMT: But these sessions weren't part of the study that they were doing. He was doing a session that only involves six Canadians. So you're talking about a different study.

ANDY PARROTT: Sorry. This is the first study published in 1986 where 29 people—

[Crosstalk]

AMT: Yeah. We’re talking about the latest study.

ANDY PARROTT: Yeah. So I’m saying that this first study described lots of side effects which haven't really been apparent in many of the later reports. For instance, they had people who didn't respond so they gave them a high dose and one woman was given 200 milligrams of MDMA and again, I quote directly from the paper: “The side effects reported were nausea, a small amount of vomiting, jaw tension, ataxia, blurred vision, sweating, brief term memory loss, brief hallucination.” So she was given quite a high dose.

AMT: Right. So—

ANDY PARROTT: —such a powerful drug. It can be difficult to use.

AMT: Right. But couldn't you say that about a lot of drugs? And there's still prescription drugs.

ANDY PARROTT: Well, there’s a very specific window. This is only 200 milligrams as against 150. So it's only a slightly increased dosage she took. They found that not everyone responded positively and particularly people with previous psychiatric problems, some of these were reinforced by the trial. So again, I’ll quote directly from—

AMT: No, I’m going to ask you to stop quoting because we don't have a lot of time.

ANDY PARROTT: Okay.

AMT: I don't need you reading the study. I think you've made your point. But isn't the point that some people do have bad reactions to lots of drugs but other people are really helped with them. So what would be wrong with going ahead with another phase of trials?

ANDY PARROTT: Well, one of the problems is obviously some people can benefit. But my concern is some people might not. And so I'm very concerned at this and I'm also concerned about the message it’s sending to young people that if you take MDMA, it will help solve your problems.

AMT: But they are doing this under very controlled circumstances. They’re not telling young people to pop it at home.

ANDY PARROTT: Well, Rick Doblin’s website says give money to their trials—the MAPS website—so you can help people solve their problems. Lots of students I lecture to say well, MDMA must be a safe drug for them to take because it helps solve problems. So I'm very concerned about the wider message it's sending to the general population.

AMT: True. But you know they use fentanyl to work with cancer patients and it's on the street and it's really dangerous. They haven't stopped using it for prescriptions.

ANDY PARROTT: Yes. But my students say because of these trials, it must be safe for them to take. So I’d rather they had messages warning against people to use it in the non-therapeutic situation. So I think it's—some of my students say they've taken it simply because they’ve read about these trials and they’ve ended up with problems.

AMT: Shouldn't your students know better?

ANDY PARROTT: Sorry?

AMT: They’re psychology students. Shouldn't they know better?

ANDY PARROTT: Well, these are 18 year olds. They often don't know a lot. They’re simply under social pressure, et cetera.

AMT: But do you stop a clinical trial because an 18 year old misreads something?

ANDY PARROTT: But I think you need far more positive warnings around it, which I haven't seen in the press reports of these trials.

AMT: Okay. Well, I guess we've got them now. Andy Parrott, thank you.

ANDY PARROTT: Okay.

AMT: Andy Parrott, professor in the department of psychology at Swansea University. He studies the recreational use of MDMA and he joined us from Swansea in the UK. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Actor Kim Coates is speaking to Tom Power today. And we're going to leave you something else after talking to Trevor Noah on The Daily Show. He speaks six languages—English, Afrikaans, four African languages—including Xhosa, a language known for its distinctive click consonants and I'm saying it incorrectly because I don't know how to do the click. We're going to leave you today with a traditional song in that language. In the Western world it's mostly known as “The Click Song” since those of us who cannot speak the language have a hard time pronouncing that original title. We're going to leave you with South African activist and singer Miriam Makeba. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current.

[Music: “The Click Song” – Miriam Makeba]

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

December 5, 2016 full episode transcript

More Stories Like This