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The Current Transcript for October 17, 2016

Host: Anna-Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

SOUNDCLIP

[Indigenous language greeting]

MARCEL GAGNON: Grandfather, grandmother, ancestors, we thank you. We ask that you hear our prayer. Our prayer tonight is that good things will come from this, and that together we come and we are here for the same reason. But always remind us, grandfather, that we're here for the families who are struggling, and we can be there to help them. Some things we don't understand [unintelligible], some things we will never understand. But we thank you, we thank you for that on my relations.

ANNA-MARIA TREMONTI: An Indigenous blessing from Marcel Gagnon, an elder from the Lheidli T’enneh First Nation. One of the many First Nations communities that has lost its women and girls to violence along the isolated stretch of road in northern BC, officially known as Highway 16, universally known as the Highway of Tears. It got that name more than a decade ago, as women of all ages from teens onward began to disappear as they walked to school, as they hitchhiked toward cities in the south as they headed out to meet friends or to get to jobs. And what began as an emotional shorthand for the trauma in this region is now a symbol for the wider disturbing reality afflicting so many Indigenous females in Canada. We have come to Prince George along this highway to begin a series of public forums on the issue of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. A long pushed for federal inquiry officially kicked off just a few weeks ago. Over the next 90 minutes we will hear from families still grieving, still looking for answers. We will hear from an RCMP official in charge of the special investigations along this route. We will hear from others with ideas and hopes for change. And we are doing something different with this conversation, we are using virtual reality technology to illustrate the enormity of this issue. Our short four minute documentary takes viewers to the Highway of Tears and tells the story of one family's loss. That's right, VR, virtual reality brought to you by The Current. This is for a conversation that begins here at the Prince George Civic Centre. It continues on the air and online. And yes, you will be able to view it no matter where you are. All of this to help us connect the dots and examine the problems and solutions so many Indigenous leaders have been pleading with Canadian politicians and the Canadian public to confront. I'm Anna-Maria Tremonti, coming to you before an audience in Prince George, British Columbia, this is a special edition of The Current.

[Sound: crowd applause]

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'Not just a statistic, they are people': Families of MMIW search for justice

Guests: Brenda Wilson, Diane Nakamura

ANNA-MARIA TREMONTI: Thank you all for coming out to be with us here today. In the virtual reality documentary that we brought with us, which many of you have seen and those listening will have an opportunity to see, we focus on the story of one particular young woman. Let's hear from her mother.

SOUNDCLIP

MATILDA WILSON: My name is Matilda Wilson, I have six children all together and Ramona is the youngest one. She was 16 years old when she was murdered on June 11, 1994. They hired her in June to be a peer counselor for the Smithers community service and she was so ecstatic about that. Saturday was the day she was to meet her friends, and you know, there's no buses running or transits or anything like that. She never made it there.

AMT: Matilda Wilson is with us tonight in the front row. Matilda thank you for being here.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: And we will hear from Matilda Wilson later in the show. You know, Ramona's body was not found until almost a year later and she's just one of the many whose names are forever linked to that ribbon of asphalt that runs through this region, Highway 16. Members of her family now advocate for those families who are going through what the Wilson family continues to go through. Brenda Wilson is Ramona's sister. She is the Highway of Tears initiative coordinator for the Carrier Sekani Family Services. Welcome Brenda.

BRENDA WILSON: Thank you.

AMT: Brenda, talk to us a little bit about Ramona. What do you remember about the time when she went missing?

BRENDA WILSON: I remember she was just a really vibrant young lady. She just turned 16, we had celebrated her birthday in February, and it was June was the last time we had seen her. She had so much going for her, she was going to school, high school, she was on the baseball team, she was a peer counselor, and most of all she was our baby sister. She had quite a few nieces and nephews at that time, including my children which she used to babysit. And she was also a big part of our family because she spent a lot of time with us. It was very difficult when she went missing because we just felt that we had no place to turn in 1994. When we tried to put out posters we’re looking, we had posters that were printed on a black and white photocopier. We didn't have internet or social media to put it out there quickly or to get the information to all her friends or family, and also to try to get help from the RCMP at that time and from our community was really difficult. We weren't really a part of our community, we weren't considered important because our family was a single parent family.

AMT: Brenda, how has her death, her disappearance, affected your family in the years since then?

BRENDA WILSON: It has taken a toll on our family, but our family is resilient. It's been 22 years this year and we continue to bring awareness about her death and about the unjustice that has happened through all these years, that there's no answer in what happened to her or that her killer has never been prosecuted. So each year we bring awareness by doing a walk in the small community of Smithers which has brought national attention to this issue.

AMT: Sitting next to you is Diane Nakamura. She is a social worker and a counselor who has worked in northern BC for almost 30 years. She has worked with children and families dealing with issues of violence, abuse and addictions. Welcome Diane.

DIANE NAKAMURA: Thank you.

AMT: You have heard so many stories over the years. What do you think as you listen to what Brenda is saying?

DIANE NAKAMURA: Most people would not understand what trauma does to families. And the fact that Brenda, Ramona’s sister, is the Highway of Tears initiative coordinator. The fact that despite not getting any closure after 22 years of her sister's death, that she is working in the field directly, working with the issue and that being a strong advocate despite the burdens that she carries, that her family carries. I think it's truly amazing, you know, that this family is as strong and as resilient as they are. It's tough to do. I've spoken to many family members over the years and there are times that it's hard to get out of bed in the morning. And every time the phone rings there's always that hope that maybe it's somebody calling to tell them that they found their daughter or, you know, have some news. But year after year, the years go by and there's no answers and there's no news and there is nothing and it's devastating. There's not a lot of support and understanding for what families go through. The one void that I've seen over the last 30 years is that there is a real deficit in providing victim support to families, like, consistent victim support. If a case goes to trial, there's all kinds of support up to the trial, during the trial, and then after the trial is over the help is done, you know, and again there's very very little knowledge and recognition of the level of trauma. When you're talking about victim support, we're talking long term, we're not talking one year, two years, three years. It should be provided to families after 20 years.

AMT: Diane how important is it for people to tell the stories of the people, the person they have lost?

DIANE NAKAMURA: Well, I think for a number of the families, one of the issues is that they don't feel like they've been heard. Brenda gave a good example of what their family's experience was when Ramona first went missing, that there wasn't support and services available to them at the time. It is healing on some level to have family members tell their stories. The downside to that is that for some family members, telling their story over and over again can be retraumatizing. So depending on the family, the individual's level of healing and the support that they have, that makes a difference in terms of whether telling the story would be a positive experience or a traumatizing one.

AMT: Brenda, I have to ask you. That highway is symbolic now, but it's also a highway you have to use. I'm wondering what that is like for you?

BRENDA WILSON: Well, just recently this year we did a cleansing the highway walk. And that was to bring attention to the Highway of Tears and how many families were still not listened to. Not everybody has heard their stories, even though we had a family gathering here in Prince George and also a pre inquiry meeting here in Prince George. Still a lot of our families are not heard, because they couldn't even afford to be at that meeting. They couldn't come to the meeting because there were not enough funds in the budget for those families to come here. And the reason behind that was because the government would not have that money upfront. Those families had to foot the bill first, and many of those families were unable to do that. So they missed out on that opportunity to ensure the families felt that they were heard, we started this walk in Prince Rupert and we stopped in each of the communities. And each of those families got to tell their stories in their own communities to their own members, so that their members had the opportunity to assist them and to try to help them in any way. Because many times our families don't feel that they have that opportunity to do something for their loved one.

AMT: And may I ask who else needs to hear these stories? Are the police listening?

BRENDA WILSON: Some of the police were involved in some of the forums that we had. But you know, it's very important that more of the RCMP are involved in hearing those stories so that they understand what the families are going through and to be able to show a little bit of compassion to those families as they go through that.

AMT: What is your own experience with the police in the case of your own sister?

BRENDA WILSON: In 1994 there was no relationship with the RCMP. We were, as I said before, a family with a single mom, and we were stigmatized as a dysfunctional family. Nobody knew how much we loved each other as a family, we were very close, and that's what bonded us and that's why we were able to survive. My mom made sure that as a single mom and five kids she was able to give us happiness. She provided us, she ensured our birthdays were celebrated, she ensured we had Christmas gifts every Christmas, and we just celebrated all our birthdays, which was just something that, you know, many mothers today might not be able to do but she did that.

AMT: And as the years went by, did you get information when the police had information? Did they at least liaise with you? How did that, did it change over time?

BRENDA WILSON: In the first, probably about the first five years, we didn't get a lot of cooperation until Carrier Sekani Family Services had the symposium, and there were recommendations made. And that was when we started to hear more from the RCMP and they wanted to know what they could do for us, and so that, you know, that relationship started to build from there. But, you know, there's still a lot that needs to be done, because although we've built that relationship with the RCMP and the investigators, that relationship is not the same with other families. And, you know, I think that relationship needs to happen with all the families, not only us. I mean, it's taken 22 years for that to happen and it shouldn't take that long.

AMT: And so, a federal inquiry is now in place. How are you feeling about the very fact that it has begun?

BRENDA WILSON: The day that the public inquiry was announced, it was a day of overjoyment, I was getting e-mails and, you know, messages from quite a few people that I worked with over the years and there was joy, you know, tears of joy that this was actually happening. And, you know, as we went through talking more about it, we realized that what if this doesn't happen, you know, what if it's just something that they're saying to keep us quiet for now. I’m at a point where I am skeptical about the whole thing, and, you know, I'm hoping that they'll be able to keep their promises.

AMT: Diane, how concerned are you about the impact of another inquiry on these families?

DIANE NAKAMURA: I echo Brenda's concern as well, because there always seems to be money for research and for surveys and symposiums, and recommendations are made. But I have yet to see a process where the recommendations were actually implemented in a very, you know, like in a thorough, effective way that it actually help the people. So that's my concern, is that is this going to be another disappointment? When the recommendations are made will they actually be implemented and will communities, families be able to get the help that they need?

AMT: You're telling me you don't want to see them given false hope.

DIANE NAKAMURA: No.

AMT: Yeah, and those recommendations will be at least two years away. Brenda, in the meantime what would you like to see happen to support the families that you're dealing with now?

BRENDA WILSON: Well, as a lot of you know, the Highway of Tears initiative is funded month by month, sometimes six months at a time. So there is no funding to secure the Highway of Tears initiative. And we've been looking at different ways, being creative on how to keep that going. Why we want this to continue is because the families need the services, they need the support in providing awareness for their loved ones that are missing. They need answers for the loved ones that have been murdered. Many of us are still, you know, hear our loved ones are gone and we still have no answers as to what happened to them. There's no convictions for many of these murders. And when these families are going through the trial system, there is no support for those families. The support that is there is monetary and it doesn't even cover the months and months that these families have to go through those trials.

AMT: So you're telling me that you would like to see the very thing that you're doing to help actually get some long term commitment while we wait to see what these other recommendations will be?

BRENDA WILSON: Yes.

AMT: We're going to leave it there and we'll pick up on some of that in our next half hour. Thank you both. Brenda Wilson is the Highway of Tears initiative coordinator for Carrier Sekani Family Services. Her sister Ramona Wilson went missing in 1994, she was found murdered. Diane Nakamura is a social worker and a counselor currently working with the McLeod Lake Indian Band. And I want to mention again, she is available this evening to talk to anyone in the audience who may need some support during or after this discussion. Diane will be sitting in the front row. You can find any CBC staff and they will connect you to Diane. A reminder, you can go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent to find out how you can watch the virtual reality documentary. And if you are tweeting about the event, please use the hashtag TheCurrentMMIW. In the next half hour, we will hear from community leaders in Prince George. We will hear more about root causes and talk about solutions. You are listening to the first of our public forums on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. I'm Anna-Maria Tremonti in Prince George with a special edition of The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Sound: crowd applause]

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MMIW: Trust a barrier with Indigenous girls and RCMP, says advocate

Guests: Wayne Clary, Rena Zatorski, Mary Teegee

ANNA-MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna-Maria Tremonti, and you're listening to a special edition of The Current recorded before an audience in Prince George, BC.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: We are in Prince George for the first of our public discussions on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. We have produced a virtual reality documentary on the Highway of Tears. Many of those in the audience with us have had an opportunity to view it. Usually when you watch virtual reality it's an experience all on its own, but for us it is the beginning of a larger conversation. If you are listening to this on the radio, you can find out how to view the documentary by going to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. We just heard from a family member who has lost a loved one along the Highway of Tears. In a moment, we will talk about some of the solutions to systemic issues. But first, let's hear from the investigators. I would like to welcome Wayne Clary, he is with the RCMP’s project E-Pana. This unit was launched in 2005 to investigate the disappearances and murders of 18 women on the so-called Highway of Tears. Hello Wayne Clary, welcome.

WAYNE CLARY: Thanks for having me.

AMT: It is not the first time you have heard the stories, but I wonder what you think as you listen to the story of Ramona Wilson and the experience that Brenda relates to, all of those years dealing with her death?

WAYNE CLARY: Well, I actually find it upsetting listening to her experience. I'm happy now that we've progressed a long way and we've made many many steps. Personally, I've dealt with many many families that have dealt with trauma and murder and all kinds of other bad things happen to families and loved ones. And I saw what it would do to the families when there's some compassion with the police and dealing with them.

AMT: And tell us a little bit about investigations, because they have been going on for a long time and yet families are looking for answers. How likely is it that you will be able to tell the families of these women and girls what happened to them?

WAYNE CLARY: These kinds of investigations, essentially when we're looking at a stranger on stranger situation, are the toughest to investigate. In particular along here in this geographic area, where it's very isolated, it’s very lonely, a lot of these crimes happened long time ago when there's, you know, there's no video, there's no cell phone, there's no cell phone towers. It's a big hurdle to overcome. Some of our victims they don't get found, some don't get found right away. And so evidence is lost and it's a tough road. But as the saying goes if you don't shake the tree, nothing will fall out. And that's essentially what we try to do.

AMT: And what do you tell the families then?

WAYNE CLARY: Well, I've been honest with our families and I say perhaps they’ll never be solved. But I think I've left them with the impression that we care and we're trying, and we'll keep following up on tips and interviews and whatever we have to do as they come in. I'd like to say, and thank Brenda for her walk that she did this past summer, and I told her this but because of the publicity from that, we received a spike in tips from the general public. It's important to keep this alive.

AMT: And tips for one specific case or just tips overall?

WAYNE CLARY: Overall and in particular we had a couple on this case as well, so that we're following up on.

AMT: And so the very fact that families can share their stories and continue to share their stories matters to your investigations?

WAYNE CLARY: It's huge. At this stage of the game, it's the communities that are going to solve these crimes. We have turned over every stone we can, to a large degree, we're still carrying on, but crimes of this nature, it's the people out there in the public that are going to help us to lead us where we need to go.

AMT: Have any of the 18 cases on E-Pana’s list been solved?

WAYNE CLARY: Yes.

AMT: What can you tell us?

WAYNE CLARY: We believe we solved three from the mid 1970s. We had DNA from one fellow Bobby Jack Fowler, who unfortunately died in jail in Oregon, but we believe he killed three of our girls. And a couple of years ago, we charged a fellow who killed Monica Jack out of Merritt and Kathryn Mary Herbert, who was not in the E-Pana file from Abbotsford back in the seventies. So that was very very satisfying for our group to finally put the handcuffs on somebody and put them in jail.

AMT: Indigenous leaders say there are more than 50 women, at least 50 women who have gone missing in this region. Why 18?

WAYNE CLARY: I was involved in setting up the file, but they set a criteria. One of the main criterias, they're looking for a serial killer. It had to be a stranger to stranger attack, it had to be a woman. It had to be within a certain distance from a major highway in British Columbia. And I can tell you when they ramped up with these 18 files, there was over 70 people working on the files at that time. And I know from experience that it's important that you have parameters set, so you can actually have a chance of achieving your goals. That's not to say as you go along if more information comes in you cannot steer left or steer right or go where you need to go.

AMT: OK. And you had mentioned there was a man charged, that’s Gary Handlen.

WAYNE CLARY: Yes.

AMT: Has he gone to trial?

WAYNE CLARY: I think right now we're in voir dire stage in Vancouver.

AMT: OK, so that is ongoing.

WAYNE CLARY: That is ongoing yes.

AMT: There is no conviction yet. There is a charge, there is a suspect charge.

WAYNE CLARY: Yeah.

AMT: You ruled out, well, I guess in the case of Bobby Jack Fowler, you've linked him to three women.

WAYNE CLARY: Yes.

AMT: So does that mean he was a serial killer?

WAYNE CLARY: Yes, yeah it for those three.

AMT: But you have ruled out one for all of these, the 18 on the list, you were originally looking for one, you thought.

WAYNE CLARY: That was the initial thought, of course it hasn't borne out, generally speaking.

AMT: You actually retired at one point and were brought back, am I right?

WAYNE CLARY: Yes.

AMT: So as you go through this and you meet with families, I'm wondering how much this keeps you awake at night?

WAYNE CLARY: You know, I'd like nothing rather to sit down with Matilda and Brenda and tell them, you know, we've found out who killed Ramona. I know that we did that, we sat down with Monica Jack’s family, it was a very emotional, uplifting experience for police. It was very gratifying.

AMT: And what do you say to those who feel that the disappearances of their loved ones were not considered fast enough or seriously enough when they first reported them?

WAYNE CLARY: Well, I'm going to call that the old days, it’s upsetting when I hear that kind of talk. It happened, and I'd like to say going forward it’ll never happen again and nor should it. Victims’ families deserve that kind of attention and it's the right thing to do.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: You got support for that. And how is the RCMP working to improve relations then?

WAYNE CLARY: Well, I know in major crime our officer in charge, about four years ago, he made that process formal. And now, of course there's the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights, which is now legislation, so it has to be done.

AMT: OK, Wayne Clary, thank you.

WAYNE CLARY: Thank you.

AMT: That is Wayne Clary with the E-Pana, the unit set up to investigate the disappearances and homicides on the Highway of Tears. Now, it was just over a month ago September 1st, that Ottawa officially kicked off the inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. Indigenous leaders have raised concerns about the scope of the inquiry already. The Native Women's Association of Canada is critical of what it calls a lack of progress already. Now, a final report with recommendations is still two years away. Earlier reports regarding the protection of Indigenous women have made recommendations that have not been implemented. I have two people with me now to talk about what is already happening and what more they believe needs to be done, and a third person waiting in the wings you see him up here. But let's start with Mary Teegee, who is the Director of Child and Family Services at Carrier Sekani Family Services. She is Ramona Wilson's aunt. And Rena Zatorski spearheaded the Highway of Tears symposium in 2006. Welcome to you both.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: Rena Zatorski, let's start with you. You took it upon yourself a decade ago to bring people together. What was happening that made you realize this was an issue that needed to be discussed in this symposium?

RENA ZATORSKI: I had been a newly elected council member for Lheidli T'enneh First Nation. And as a newly elected council member I had felt that being a leader was about being an activist and proactive. There was a young girl, her name was Aielah Saric-Auger, and she was 14 years old and she was picked up downtown Prince George and murdered, and essentially thrown away like garbage on the side of the highway. And I had just gave birth to my first child, which was a beautiful baby girl, I think everything combined just really hit home for me. I knew that there was many systemic issues that were at play and are still at play today. So we put out a press release and the press release essentially stated that we were interested in being involved with a symposium. The press release never stated that we were going to actually host it. But after it was put out, I received numerous phone calls and emails. It actually didn't stop.

AMT: It was like finally somebody was saying let's get together and talk about this.

RENA ZATORSKI: That’s exactly.

AMT: And in the end, there was a huge turnout, right?

RENA ZATORSKI: So there was over 500 people in attendance and there was about 92 different organizations represented, and these organizations were not all First Nation communities. We had organizations in attendance from fishermen to steelworker unions. People were interested and they wanted to talk about it. It was a very high emotional two days. So from that symposium we contracted Don Sabo, who I think this is over there, to write the Highway of Tears report and the 33 recommendations that it spoke to.

AMT: You had 33 recommendations. Were any of them acted upon?

RENA ZATORSKI: I feel that there was a lot of movement and a work put towards them, but these issues are really systemic issues. So the money that is needed to implement, I think, it's substantial. And when you're not getting, I think, a commitment, it makes things a lot more difficult.

AMT: Mary Teegee, let's talk about this. These systemic issues, spell that out for me. What are you talking about?

MARY TEEGEE: If you look at the number one recommendation, which was to provide shuttle service between Prince Rupert and Prince George, you figured that would be such a simple thing to do. It took us 10 years, and as you know, you've heard on the news just recently the minister of transportation had finally agreed to provide some dollars to look at transportation systems in the north and also finally at the 11th hour the federal government contributed a million dollars just a few months ago. So that was the number one recommendation. There's also recommendations in there around victim support, emergency preparedness. You know, there's four theme areas that we looked at. But when we're talking about those broader systemic issues, I mean, I think when you look back then when the symposium happened, those issues are still there. Today we have, you know, systemic barriers within the RCMP still. Those issues are still there. The RCMP are in fact a part of our governing body as well.

AMT: OK, so when you say a systemic barrier with the RCMP, spell that out for me, what do you mean?

MARY TEEGEE: Well, I think when you're looking at the relationship with Indigenous young girls and women, and you look at some of the reports, we had the Amnesty International report, Those Who Take Us Away, we've had the UN Special Rapporteur here in northern BC. But the one thing that we know is the trust that we have with our young girls and women, or just First Nations people and generally with the RCMP, and that is still a barrier. So if they are not feeling confident, especially given the media right now on the sexual harassment case and the sexual bullying case, you know, that the RCMP are involved in, you know there has to be that level of trust. So if they are going to be reporting, they're going to feel safe, who is protecting them? And there really isn't that feeling I believe still, and so it is an ongoing job for everybody, the RCMP. And that should be a priority for them when it comes to dealing with First Nations communities.

AMT: And so now there is a federal inquiry underway. What are you thinking? What are you expecting? What do you want to see happen literally in the coming weeks and months now?

MARY TEEGEE: We've been pushing for, you know, something that's got to change Canada-wide. And what I would expect from the national inquiry is that the information that is gleaned from all of the engagement sessions, that that would be foundation for the establishment, development of a federal act to end violence against women. And I think that's what we need to do, because for us and when Brenda talks about being skeptical and most everybody that I know, all my colleagues and the people that I look to for advice, are absolutely skeptical. Because if you look at some, you know, the small report Highway of Tears recommendations, 33 recommendations, it's 10 years after, most of them aren't fulfilled. You look at the Wally Oppal Commission, the Forsaken Report, not many of those recommendations have been fulfilled. We could go on and on. NWAC has done the Stolen Sisters report. So what we need right now is a federal act to ensure that those action items are funded. That it would always be a Treasury Board line item, otherwise we're going to be here 10 years from now, 20 years from now discussing the same things.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: I want to bring someone else into this conversation. You heard him at the beginning of our program giving us a blessing. Marcel Gagnon is a Lheidli T'enneh elder. He has worked on healing programs for both men and women. The other day I had an opportunity to participate in a healing sweat lodge with several other women. Here's a little bit of what it sounded like just outside.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: fire crackling]

MARCEL GAGNON: So the sweat we're doing here today it’s called a humble sweat. And it’s for prayers for the families of the missing and murdered women and men, because there are men too. I think it's going to be a very powerful ceremony today, so. But if we could have the smudge lit and then we’ll do our smudge. If you want to line up here, and I’ll start the smudge. This is just a little pre-ceremony to going into the lodge.

[Sound: fire crackling]

AMT: That was the crackling fire you heard, getting the rocks hot enough to go in. Marcel, the sweat lodge was traditionally for men only. Why is that changing?

MARCEL GAGNON: I think it's changing all over North America. All the places I've been I see women doing sweats and actually carrying pipes now, even pipes were a man thing. But I think it's exciting. I think it's a sign of things to come. And I think the result will be that we become a powerful united people again.

AMT: And tell me what you see, perhaps on the importance for women who have been through trauma to take part?

MARCEL GAGNON: It's very very healing. I know as an Aboriginal man, as a child growing up and witnessing trauma, continual trauma in my family, when I found ceremony it became that missing link for me. And I notice with the women especially, because the women, in the third round we did yesterday, the third round was about the women. It is the most powerful round because it is the round where we recognise the sacredness of women, the givers of life. And I always say us as men have temporarily misplaced them, but they are now rising up to take that place of honour and us men, it is our duty to place them where they belong.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: And so, I'm interested in hearing from all of you about the point that Rena made at the beginning. You said you had your first child, who would now be about ten, right?

RENA ZATORSKI: 12.

AMT: 12, OK. Do you think enough has changed for her? What do you worry about? What do you want to see changed?

RENA ZATORSKI: [quietly crying]

AMT: It's OK Rena, it's an emotional question because you care so much.

RENA ZATORSKI: [deep sigh] It's a worry that I have every day, every morning. The exploitation and the abuse, the systemic racism. I know that during my entire life, you're fighting every day, you're not treated equal. So every day you're spending countless hours out of your day essentially trying to defend your existence, your life really. Because I think that what we represent to the Canadian society is that it's OK to abuse and we're not all equal, and we can brush things under the carpet and we don't need to talk about it. So with my daughter, every morning I'm shaken, because you hear a lot on the news, all over social media or on TV or the radio about systemic violence. And she is going to probably most likely, and same as my son, grow up potentially being victimized. And the onus is always going to be put upon them to legitimize their very existence. And I think it's abhorrent that people in this day and age essentially live that type of life, that they have to defend their very life and who they are.

AMT: Mary, what you think?

MARY TEEGEE: I think that we know the stats, that I am as just being an Indigenous woman, you know, sometimes I've heard in some reports three times more likely, four times more likely to be murdered or die a violent death than my non-Indigenous counterpart. And that is scary, so when we look at our nieces, our sisters, our young girls, I mean, that's the harsh reality in Canada. So when we look at the broader issue of why our young girls and women are vulnerable, we have to look at the impacts of residential school. And I know people have heard that again and again. We hear comments like, why don't you just get over it. It’s become almost trite, but that is at the crux, that is at the heart of the matter, is the impacts of colonization, the impacts of residential school. It is systemic racism, where our lives matter nothing, that we are literally like, as Rena said, thrown in the ditch like a piece of garbage. As long as there's that systemic racism and as long as Canadian citizens don't face it and look at themselves in the mirror and say I am going to be part of the solution to overcome the impacts of residential school, to overcome the impacts of colonization. And when I think about this, the one young boy in one of our discussions, and I had asked people, these young boys, what did they dream about? And they would say well, I dream to be a rock star, a lawyer, a doctor. And the one young boy, the quietest boy in the group, about 11 years old came up and he says, I dream of the day when I only have to read about the impacts of residential school, not have to live it every day. And that's out of the mouths of babes and I think that's the day that we should all be working for. Imagine, you know, 50 women missing from West Vancouver. What would the outcry? Well, for one thing the number would never rather reach that ever in West Vancouver or North Vancouver.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: You both just mentioned boys as well. There have been calls for this inquiry to include men. Do you want to speak to that Mary?

MARY TEEGEE: I've given this a lot of thought. I have my brothers and I have been very fortunate to be around extraordinary, respectful men, my father and my brothers. Honestly, like, when we look at the vulnerabilities of young girls and Indigenous women, it is again what I say about the impacts of residential school. That is what's making our people vulnerable. Now, how it manifests itself is different for boys and men as it is for girls. So the solutions will be different. And I do believe that the missing, murdered women inquiry has to move ahead. But from that, once we get the report back, what kind of solutions do we need to address the issue of men and boys? And then that's when they would come in to say these are the solutions. Marcel, do you want to speak to this as well?

MARCEL GAGNON: I think we're living in a time where our Aboriginal youth are very vulnerable. I have worked the last 10 to 12 years in corrections and I've seen how vulnerable our youth are. They come to this city with hopes and dreams that they will strike it rich and they are immediately swept up into gang activity. I can't even count how many guys that I've worked with in the last few years have been murdered in Prince George here. It's a huge loss. We're living in vulnerable times. But I can assure you those vulnerable times will pass when we become strong again and take back what made us powerful people. Thank you Anna.

AMT: Thank you. Thank you, all three of you.

AMT: That is Rena Zatorski, who organized the first big meeting, the symposium to talk about missing and murdered Indigenous women in Prince George in 2006. Mary Teegee is the Director of Child and Family Services at Carrier Sekani Family Services. Marcel Gagnon is Lheidli T'enneh elder. Thank you. And just a reminder this is a special edition of The Current, coming to you from Prince George. This is the first in a series of discussions, forums or fora on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. If you want to see the virtual reality documentary that launched this discussion, go to our website to learn how to view it cbc.ca/thecurrent. If you want to be part of the conversation, find us on Facebook, tweet us @TheCurrentCBC, use the hashtag TheCurrentMMIW. I'm Anna-Maria Tremonti, stay with us.

[Sound: crowd applause]

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MMIW public forum: 'Cold cases should have been solved,' says mother of Ramona Wilson

Guests: Terry Teegee, Angela Sterritt, Vivian Tom, Todd Doherty, Terry Teegee, Matilda Wilson, Kym Gouchie

ANNA-MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna-Maria Tremonti coming to you from Prince George, British Columbia.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: This is a special edition of The Current, the first in a series of public forums on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. It includes our virtual reality documentary, The Highway of Tears. For instructions on how to view that documentary, go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent or join the discussion now on Twitter, we are @TheCurrentCBC, use the hash tag TheCurrentMMIW. We're going to open up the discussion in a moment, and a reminder that Diane Nakamura, a social worker, is here for anyone who finds this discussion troubling and would like to speak to her about that. You can let people with the CBC know and they will direct you to Diane. If you have a question or comment, we have Betsy Trumpener and Josh Bloch with their microphones. But let's begin with someone who has been listening intently, Terry Teegee is with us in the audience today. He's the Chief of the Carrier Sekani Tribal Council. Terry Teegee, hello.

TERRY TEEGEE: Hello, thank you Anna-Maria.

AMT: I'm wondering what you're thinking as you hear the stories tonight and the concerns that have been raised?

TERRY TEEGEE: Well, what I'm thinking about is first of all, I just want to acknowledge all the families of the missing and murdered that are here. I see some here, I see a mother of Destiny Rae Tom and want to acknowledge that they're here and there could be many more. And I just wanted to say I acknowledge them for being here as a family member and as a politician what I'm thinking about is, you know, this issue of the next national inquiry and how effective is it going to be. You know, one of the useful things out of all of these inquiries and recommendations is that what they provide are preventative measures from this happening to another family. And what this national inquiry does and I think is really important, it is a mirror and a reflection of this country. Next year is 150th anniversary of Canada. It's a very young country. And many of those years of those 150 years there was residential school and there was colonization. And those are the things that we're trying to unravel and solve and mitigate, in terms of the adverse effects on Indigenous people, and more importantly the most vulnerable are women and our children. So that's what my hopes are for this national inquiry, is that it's another wake up call to this country to realize that it's everything in this country isn't that good with the Indigenous community, so we have to change things. And if it requires a revolution of sorts, of our mind and of our relationship with Indigenous people, in particular Indigenous women, then that's what has to happen. So we have great hope for it and that's what I think.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: Thank you. Thank you, that is Terry Teegee, he is the Chief of the Carrier Sekani Tribal Council.

BETSY TRUMPENER: I've got with me Angela Sterritt, a Gitxsan First Nation woman who is a journalist who is writing about the Highway of Tears and has spent recent weeks speaking with many of the families of the missing and murdered women in northern BC. Welcome Angela.

ANGELA STERRITT: Thank you.

AMT: Hello Angela, we recognize you too from your work with CBC, and you have been traveling in the region doing this research. Now, tell us a little bit about what really stays with you as you travel and as you listen here tonight.

ANGELA STERRITT: Well, first as Terry Teegee just did, I really want to recognize and honour the family members. Brenda Wilson, Ida Basil’s family, Destiny's mother's here, all the family members that I've spoken to and that are here and that are speaking up and some of the ones that aren't able to, I just want to recognize and honour how much bravery and strength this takes, many who have not had closure at all. There's many family members who I've talked to, who their missing loved one has been missing, is still missing, decades later and are still searching for justice. One of the things that I hoped that I would come to a conclusion about coming up here, I've traveled up and down the highway six times over the last six days. I really wanted hope. I really wanted to see my people, my Gitxsan people and all the people, the Carrier people, the Gitxsan people, all the people along that highway as three dimensional people. And that's what I do in my journalism, is, you know, recognizing that we are not all doom and gloom, you know. And that's something I did see, I saw love and light and laughter and hope and dedication and perseverance. But I also saw a lot of family members having to be the detectives, having to do the ground searches themselves, having to put out the missing person's report. You know, and a lot of those issues of residential school kind of repeating themselves and it's a very complex issue. We talked about that today at a forum on sexual violence and Indigenous girls. And recognizing that colonization is still ongoing today and recognizing that one of the biggest issues that I heard from family members and from relatives is that racism is a huge issue that plays a massive role on this highway. Whether it's people not being heard, whether it's violence being carried out because people know the risk is low when they commit violent acts against Indigenous women. When we talk about reconciliation, I hear family members saying this isn't just about having conversations with each other, this is coming to terms with hard issues like racism and gender racialized violence.

AMT: Angela Sterritt, thank you very much.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: Is Vivian Tom here? You're right here, you're Destiny's mother. Destiny was murdered in March of 2013.

VIVIAN TOM: Yes.

AMT: Welcome to this discussion. Thank you for coming tonight. We do know that Garrett Steven George was charged with second degree murder, he pleaded guilty to manslaughter earlier this year. More than one person has recognized you in the audience tonight because they know what you've gone through, what you continue to go through. Tell us how the death of your daughter has affected you.

VIVIAN TOM: When we first heard the news that they found Destiny, they didn't have to say they found her body. It was my son that came to our hotel room and told me and I told him, I told the RCMP, Mary Teegee came to our room and I told all of them, I said I can't believe it until I see it for myself. I'm not going to believe it until I see it, and until we'd gone out to Nautley where her body was found on the muddy road and the snow, she was laying there beside the car and it looked like she was beaten. And we didn't see her from then until the coffin, and when we saw her in the coffin it looked like someone had run over her. Half of her face was all purple and my husband and I couldn't stop crying. And Destiny left a beautiful 3 year old granddaughter named Cassidy behind, and since the day that they found Destiny we've been raising Cassidy, and she`s six right now. And at one point, my husband and I were laying on the bed in the room and the door was open and Cassidy was playing in the living room with her auntie, and my husband and I talked about suicide, that`s how hurt we were. It`s just like, our youngest child, but it wasn't our only child that we lost. Out of four live births and one miscarriage, we only have two adult children left and it just broke our hearts and our spirit when we lost Destiny and especially knowing that she died alone.

AMT: What do you tell Cassidy about her mom?

VIVIAN TOM: I tell her all the good things. We hug her, sometimes we don't know what to say when she gets hurt and she really cries. Because the same day that she lost her mom, she lost both her mom and her dad because of him being a suspect. And I make sure that I don't say anything negative about Cassidy's dad in front of her, because I want her to grow up as strong as possible. And other ways that I want to strengthen her is through our culture and teaching her a lot of things that my mom and dad taught me, my grandmother and my grandfather.

AMT: Thank you very much.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: We have someone else in the audience who's been here listening to all of this. Todd Doherty is over here. Todd Doherty is a Conservative MP for Caribou-Prince George, he's also the opposition deputy critic for Indigenous Affairs. Thank you for coming to this event tonight. What strikes you about what you've heard?

TODD DOHERTY: What strikes me is that we need action. And I think I've said this before time and again. I am a father of three beautiful daughters and a son and I can't imagine the pain that the families have gone through. You know, I sat through the pre inquiry meetings earlier this year and I fear, as it's been said before, that perhaps we're creating hope without a plan. We should be spending the money in the communities because the community knows what is needed. A lot of times in this new position that I'm in, people say well, you must have the answers, well I don't have the answers and I don't think you want to hear a politician tell you that they've got the answers. I think we need to be listening.

AMT: when the Conservatives were in power Prime Minister Stephen Harper refused to hold a national inquiry. What was your position?

TODD DOHERTY: Well, I wasn't part of Parliament at that time actually, I was just another human being, another normal everyday person. But I'm a father, and my message has never changed. Is that if that report, that next inquiry can save one life then I'm for it, but if it ends up being another book on a shelf collecting dust then it’s a waste of millions and millions and millions of dollars that would be better spent in the communities, and then sharing that. We're stemming the violence against women.

AMT: You make the point that no one wants to hear from a politician, but I do actually because in the grand scheme of things this is an inquiry that has the weight of Parliament behind it and changes are made and the kinds of changes we're hearing a call for tonight are made by legislation that our politicians actually bring forward and change in for the nation. So what will you do to hold this government accountable as this inquiry goes on its way?

TODD DOHERTY: This impacts friends and families here in my riding, it impacts my family and we need to do everything in our power to make sure that that inquiry that was announced long ago, but now seems to be moving is action based and results oriented. It’s going to be two years, two years before we have the end of the report, but we need action now and we need the money spent now. We need the victims and the families, they need support now. When you have families that are sitting here decades and don't have answers for the missing loved ones it really really hurts.

AMT: Thank you Mr. Doherty, thank you very much. That is Todd Doherty, he's the Conservative MP for Caribou-Prince George. Josh, go ahead, you've got somebody here.

JOSH BLOCH: Yeah, I have a question from someone in our audience named Eric.

ERIC: Thank you. What I wonder is if there are societies in the world that view their Indigenous populations on a higher level and treat them with better respect and dignity? And if there are, can we learn from those societies and take those lessons back home to Canada?

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: Who might want to answer that? Chief Teegee, go ahead.

TERRY TEEGEE: Sadly no, I don't think there is, because quite simply this history of colonization, whether it was France, Britain, Spanish, was to utilize this notion called doctrine of discovery that the Queen or the monarchy came to this land, which is North America, South America, Africa and they basically came in and own the land and everything in it. Over the last while here we're seeing the visit from William and Kate, and that was very controversial because in a way it was a recognition that the Crown still owns or has some influence in Canada. And yet, we're here as Indigenous people and we don't have settled treaties, at least in Carrier Sekani Tribal Council territory. And those territories is as much ours as anybody's, because we've never given up that right. I can only imagine the best case scenario is what's happening in New Zealand and the Maori. And really what that came of it, because they were a warrior society and they fought off as much as they could colonization, but they were still colonized nevertheless and in a very adverse way, they killed off each other. But I think the scenario there is a lot better. And the Maori are very strong and they do have their culture, they do have their language, but it's not like here where there was policy to kill the Indian in the child, you know, residential school. And that's what we're trying to unravel and deal with. So we need to deal with those issues not only here but nationally.

AMT: Thank you. Thank you.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: We have someone over here.

BETSY TRUMPENER: Yeah, Anna-Maria, we're going to go from a very global question to a very practical solution. And we're going to end our time, which hasn't been enough, on a moment of hope and I'd like you to meet Anita Prince, who is from McCausley territory in the Fort St. James area. You have a very interesting initiative that you want to bring in.

ANITA PRINCE: Well, the word or the phrase a moment of hope that's very powerful. Just OK. So I just wanted to go back to Todd, what you were saying about bringing the funds back to the community. For myself, being and from McCausley and Fort St. James, understanding the stories of the Highway of Tears and having some family members close to our area, being in a small town growing up, I myself wanted to make a strong change, so I made the step to move out of my hometown Fort St. James and move to Prince George to train under a very talented master in tae kwon do. I'm doing that to obtain my black belts and going back home to my community to teach that to our young children, women and men who need to learn how to defend themselves. That going home to the community, I would like to see that, to go into the small communities, for someone to go there and teach them how to defend themselves from an attacker, behind, front, anywhere. So, as the moment of hope, that's something that I would like to see.

AMT: Hope and empowerment. Thank you Anita. Thank you.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: We're going to wrap up and maybe, we started this by hearing from Matilda Wilson. Matilda what would you like to tell us?

MATILDA WILSON: Good evening everyone. Thank you for all taking the time off here to listen to the important subjects that we have to face up to. And I'd like to say that this is the best meeting I have ever been to to get the issues out that are really important, especially for the national inquiry. In this day and age, you know, all these cold cases should have been solved so many years ago. And hopefully when this national inquiry comes in we’ll be able to solve some of these cold cases, even one. I’d be so happy if that happened. And I'd like to say again, you know, my thoughts and everything that I've heard tonight, it has brought me a lot of hope and patience to understand what's going on with the politicians and the RCMP and the investigators. I've waited 22 years now and I've been standing here with my families, and I know the other mothers and their relatives have not found their loved ones and some have unsolved murders for their loved ones. We’d like to see something happen soon and I thank you again. Thank you.

[Sound: crowd applause]

AMT: Thank you. That wraps up our presentation. Thank you, Matilda Wilson. She's wearing a ribbon, by the way, that she has put a little piece of tape over to add another year to the fact that her daughter's missing. She had to write 22 over because the years keep going by. It's very moving to see that on her jacket. The virtual reality documentary with The Current was produced by the following people, the director Lisa Jackson, producers Josh Bloch and Chris Bennett, creative director Marty Flanagan, cinematographer and editor Connor Illsley, executive producers myself, Kathleen Goldhar, CJ Hervey, James Millward and we were producing that in conjunction with Secret Location, the company Secret Location. The forum was produced by Liz Hoath, Josh Bloch and our executive producer Kathleen Goldhar. Thank you to our CBC colleagues at the station here in Prince George, Betsy Trumpener, Robert Doane, Andrew Kurjata, Wil Fundal, Jordan Tucker. Special thanks to Angela Sterritt, Connie Walker and Caroline Ewald. Our sound engineers are Bill Russell and John Russell, our camera operator is Alexandre Lamic. And we're going to end on a special note. Kym Gouchie is a Prince George singer and songwriter, where are you Kim? Why don’t you come up here. You have written a song about missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. Get to the microphone there.

KYM GOUCHIE: That is correct, yes.

AMT: Tell us a little bit about the song that we're going to hear from you.

KYM GOUCHIE: Well, the song that I'm going to play today, because I've brought my hand drum is a song that I wrote while on the Highway of Tears walk with Brenda Wilson. And I decided to join them on the final stage of the walk, which was on June the 17th, I believe. And during that walk, I did 10 kilometres in total, five of those kilometres I decided to bring my hand drum. And I was alone on the highway, I had a really strong sense of the feeling of what could have possibly happened, and knowing that you're on a highway where there's no vehicles for sometimes up to five minutes and a lot can happen in that time period. But I pushed the fear aside and I began to drum and a song came to me, and the song has now been known amongst us as Cleansing the Highway song.

AMT: Well, we will leave our audience with you and this song. I want to thank everyone for being part of this discussion in Prince George, BC. I'm Anna-Maria Tremonti, thank you for being part of The Current.

[Sound: crowd applause]

KYM GOUCHIE: I'd like to ask everybody to stand and do a simple walking motion. And imagine that you're on the highway. And many of you have driven that highway.

[Sound: hand drum beating]

KYM GOUCHIE: I don't know if many of you have walked that highway. But I encourage you to someday, to step out and do a little bit of walking and feel the strong sense of the spirit and the energy, and you can feel the voices of these women.

[Sound: hand drum beating]

[Music: Kym Gouchie song]

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October 17, 2016 full episode transcript

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