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The Current Transcript for October 13, 2016

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

[Non-English language yelling]

[Through translator] We came here after the first hit happened. While we are trying to help the survivors and get the people out, the second hit happened, it created a massacre.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Even in a country all too familiar with atrocities, the bombing of a funeral in Yemen last weekend is hard to fathom. Week after week the conflict in Yemen grinds on, but only registering for most of us after particularly gruesome episodes like that one. Yemen may be overshadowed by other global hotspots, but life in the Gulf nation is bad and it is getting worse. And yesterday, for the first time the US got involved militarily in the war between rebels and the government by firing cruise missiles to destroy coastal radar sites. We will start on the ground in Yemen today. Then…

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FADUMO DAYIB: I’m Fadumo Dayib and I am a 2016 presidential candidate for the upcoming Somali elections.

PC: She is the first ever woman to run for Somalia's highest office. And if any country could use the disruption, it's the Horn of Africa country considered by many a failed state. Fadumo Dayib joins me in half an hour for a feature interview about her own life story and her plan to put Somalia on the path to success. Also today...

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The RCMP said that they had found the remains of Ramona Wilson. It just felt like I couldn't go on anymore because that was the baby of our family.

PC: That is from a new documentary The Current has produced about the notorious Highway of Tears. The BC road where dozens of indigenous women have gone missing or been murdered. It is the CBC's first ever foray into virtual reality journalism and we'll be releasing it to your smartphone on Monday. But those attending our special public forum in Prince George, BC tonight will have the chance to see it first. Anna-Maria Tremonti is there and we will check in with her about tonight's events and we'll also check in with you about your thoughts and opinions about the stories we've covered over the past week. Hello, Piya Chattopadhyay sitting in for Anna-Maria Tremonti and this is The Current.

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Yemen situation 'catastrophic' as more than 300,000 malnourished children risk death

Guests: Rajat Madhok, Kamal Al-Solaylee

SOUNDCLIP

[Non-English language newscaster speaking in distress]

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: In Yemen, a newscaster loses her composure as the latest development in the humanitarian crisis there hits home. A funeral last Saturday in the capital Sana’a was turned into a bloodbath after an attack on the hall killed some 150 mourners. Since Yemen's civil war erupted last year, life in the Middle East’s poorest country has been marred by such attacks on weddings, on hospitals, even schools. Saturday's bombing was widely reported as an airstrike by the Saudi-led coalition that is seeking to dislodge the Houthis rebels that have taken over the country. The funeral itself was for the father of a minister in the Houthi group's self-declared government. Since the attack the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has reiterated his call for an international investigation in Yemen. But last week, and for the second year in a row, the UN's Human Rights Council rejected that call. All the while, children of Yemen already suffering under the fighting, are succumbing to malnutrition in huge numbers. Rajat Madhok is the Chief of communications and advocacy for UNICEF in Yemen. And we've reached him in Sana’a. Hello.

RAJAT MADHOK: Hi, nice to speak to you.

PC: Thank you for being with us. Tell me how the children in Yemen have been affected by the fighting.

RAJAT MADHOK: Well, the situation here is quite catastrophic. Almost 3,000 of them either killed or maimed in the conflict. But that's the direct impact of the conflict. There is a long term impact as well, and which is that there are tens of thousands of children who have either died or are at direct risk of death because of the failing health system. There are 370,000 children who suffer from severe acute malnutrition. And just to give you perspective, a severe acute malnutrition child is ten times more at risk of death than a healthy child. So how do they die? Is their immunity is very weak, they can get diarrhea, they can get other diseases and that can then result in their death. So you can imagine the sort of situation is very extreme and the magnitude of the matter is I mean, it is very serious here.

PC: And is there medical help available in Sana’a and in other areas of Yemen to help these children?

RAJAT MADHOK: Well, there are 600 facilities, health facilities or hospitals that aren’t functioning in the country right now. There is help but it's very very minimalistic. There are hospitals that are barely functioning. There are ICUs that are operation theatres that are not functioning across the country. In Sana’a itself, we have the main sort of hospital here called the Al Sabeen hospital that is functioning at its maximum. But there are hundreds of thousands of other children who are out of the cities, who are in the far reaches, in rural areas, and that's where they need all the medical attention and they're not getting it.

PC: And so, when you walk around on the streets of Sana'a or outside the city, like, take us there, what do you see?

RAJAT MADHOK: The fuel prices have gone up, the food prices have gone up. There is a crisis of electricity and water distribution, I mean, homes and families here haven't received or haven't had a drop of water in their water taps for more than a year and a half. There's been no electricity. People are now sort of using solar panels for the past year and a half. So I mean, the situation is quite dire.

PC: And amidst all of this, are schools open? Do kids go to school?

RAJAT MADHOK: So what's happened is that because of the conflict, a large number of schools were either shut down, many were hit, many were destroyed or damaged by the conflict. But more importantly, parents are very scared to send their children to school. So as of today, we've got 350,000 children who are not going back to school. We have started a new campaign now, along with the government, called back to school campaign where we are encouraging parents to send their children back to school so that children do not lose out on their calendar year. But 350,000 children, almost a generation of kids losing out on a calendar year, that is big.

PC: And as I understand it, there are in some places displaced people living in schools, is that right?

RAJAT MADHOK: Yes, in certain areas, especially if you go down towards [unintelligible]. Where I went, for example, I can tell you about my story. I went to a school where I saw, and I'm not exaggerating, in a classroom 30 people women and children sprawled all over the classroom. They've been living there for the past six months. And that story is replicated in other schools and other classrooms in many parts of the country. Now, the bathrooms that I went to that I visited in the school were clogged. Children were just sort of sitting wherever they found any clean space. Now, what UNICEF has done is that we've moved or we've helped move quite a few of the IDPs (internally displaced peoples) to other locations where we’ve constructed toilets, where they can use proper toilets, proper latrines and sanitation situation is slightly better.

PC: And Rajat, I mean, you’re in Sana’a and when you go out and talk to people and especially the children that UNICEF is trying to help, what do they tell you? Are they frightened?

RAJAT MADHOK: I mean, they're deeply impacted. There is absolutely no doubt in that. But I think in all of this, they are equally determined to go back to school. They’re equally determined to go back to their homes. They want to start or restart their life, the life that they had left almost two years back. So I guess I do see a sense of fear in their eyes, but I also see hope.

PC: What do you hear from Yemenis about what they most urgently need?

RAJAT MADHOK: Well, most of the Yemenis, especially those that have been displaced, need food. That's their big sort of ask. But majority of them want to go back to their normal life. You can imagine if you're sort of walking on the street and you hear gunfire or you hear the sounds of war, you can’t sleep at night because there is sort of fighting going on. What majority of Yemenis need is peace and I think that is the most critical thing that's needed right now.

PC: Thank you very much.

RAJAT MADHOK: Alright, pleasure.

PC: Bye Rajat.

RAJAT MADHOK: Bye.

PC: Rajat Madhok is the Chief of communications and advocacy for UNICEF in Yemen. We reached him in the capital Sana’a. Kamal Al-Solaylee has been following the conflict in Yemen very closely. The author and Associate Professor at Toronto's Ryerson University is originally from Yemen, and much of his family still lives in that country. Kamal Al-Solaylee joins me in our Toronto studio. Hello.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Hi, Piya.

PC: How are you?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: I'm holding, I'm doing OK, I mean, I'm constantly worried and I have a lot of sleepless nights because whenever I hear the news I expect the worst. And the war is happening very close to where my family is living. I mean, wars are no longer fought on battles, they're actually in cities, in downtowns, in the suburbs where my family is living.

PC: Who's there? Who's your family there?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: All my siblings. Nine of them but one, and an assortment of nephews and nieces, close to 16, but I've lost count.

PC: Do you talk to them often?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Every Sunday, yeah.

PC: And how are they doing? What do they tell you?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: I've noticed a change in the tone of their voices. When the war started, they were putting on a brave face, but they were kind of hopeful that this is all going to come to an end. It's been more than a year and a half, as your first guest mentioned, and they're now really anxious there. They don't see a way out of this. I don’t want to say the word testy, but the anxiety has actually sort of bubbled to the surface.

PC: Do they have that hope that Rajat said he see sometimes in children's eyes? Do you hear that?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Well, they're remarkably resilient, that's the one thing I would like to emphasize to anyone listening, is that they get on with their life. They actually, none of my nephews and nieces were taken off school, they continue to go to school, as long as the school is open. And you know how much of a risk that is for a mother or father to send their kids to school knowing that there's a very high chance that the school will be bombed today. But they still go on because they value education and they don't want them to lose their calendar year.

PC: Let me ask you about a couple of things that Rajat had mentioned that are in short supply. So does your family have food?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: My family does have food because we're well-to-do middle class family who can actually weather the storm of inflation. The food is generally available to those who can afford it.

PC: What about water?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: No, they actually buy water from these sort of tanks that go around neighbourhoods and you just hail them, and stop and ask them to fill in the local tank at home. They haven't had electricity for almost a year and a half and we--

PC: [interposing] No electricity for a year and half?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: No electricity.

PC: And these are upper middle class Yemenis?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: This is the whole city and what we all do is they rely on solar panels, but it can only generate enough electricity for basics like lights in the house and maybe a little bit of television, but it can't for example, generate electricity for the fridge. So they can't really use the fridge, they have to buy food fresh every day and throw away the rest, because it doesn't keep. They can't use an iron, it's not enough necessarily for any heavy duty appliances.

PC: You talked about your nieces and nephews still going to school. Are their parents, do they still have jobs?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: They do have jobs. I mean, I have particularly two sisters who are sort of the income earners in the family. But what actually happened is that they haven't been paid now for a couple of months. They are relying on savings and it seems to me that there is a shortage of money in the country as well. The central bank is not issuing currency, so there's no bills. So whenever anyone sends money back home, now more recently, they would have to check whether there is actual cash in the bank.

PC: Physical cash.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Physical cash that they can withdraw from the bank, yeah.

PC: I know you said that they're resilient, and you often find this in war torn places, that the resilience of humans is often gob smacking, to be honest. That said, this clearly has a huge psychological component to everyone who is there. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? About what impact psychology is on the Saudi bombing campaign. What's it doing to them?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: I mean, it's an understatement to say it's rattled their nerves. That's really the understatement of the year. I mean, basically you can't sleep because you hear, if not actual bombings, then sort of military planes flying around. But then you're expected to get up in the morning and go to work. So even while you're at work, you expected to be alert but you've had no sleep and this is not something that lasts for a day or two. This has been for a year or more. So that's one psychological impact, is that sleep deprivation. The other thing is that a sense of abandonment, because I think this is why the morale is so low is my family and other families like them feel that the world has turned a blind eye to them. No one is speaking for Yemen except really sort of hard core human rights groups. It's not in headlines the way the Syria war is. We’re completely out of sight and out of mind for media and for world empathy it seems. And I'm not resenting that in one minute it seem that all the world empathy has gone towards Syria and it seems to have exhausted that supply. I mean, empathy is finite at the end of the day and there's nothing left for people in Yemen.

PC: So it's a forgotten war, you think it's because we've just run out of gas so to speak on our empathy metres?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: I mean, also Yemen is not a country that sort of triggers memories or associations in western. Particularly, when you think about western media, we're all familiar with Lebanon and Syria and Damascus and these are cities with great romantic associations. But Yemen is cut off from the world and most people couldn’t even place it on a map.

PC: I want to talk to you about, you know, the geopolitics of this war. So Saudi Arabia says its bombing Houthi rebels in Yemen who are backed by Iran. How much support is there for the rebels from ordinary, everyday Yemeni civilians?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Well, here is the misconception. It is, the rebels are Yemenis and they're a part of our society. So it's not necessarily a civil war. And at the beginning of this war, among Sunni Yemenis particularly, or amongst just the mainstream Yemenis, there was a kind of resentment towards the rebels for taking what was at that point a legitimately sort of elected government. But I think the tide has changed and I think Yemenis are bonding regardless of their sectarian or religious affiliation. I think the resentment is really being directed at Saudi Arabia and at the US and the UK and to a lesser extent Canada for supporting this sort of continuous bombardment that has gone beyond settling scores and has gone beyond just sort of unseating the rebels. This is an out and out war on civilians.

PC: And at the same time, al-Qaeda and ISIS both very present in Yemen. What impact is the bombing campaign having on these groups?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Well, it's been the best recruitment advertising ever. I mean, you don't need even to to recruit anymore. I think I'm pretty certain that young sort of disaffected, unemployed men and women who are seeing their families, you know, starving to death have lost all faith in government and in international institutions, and are being drawn to organizations that seem to offer them in one way or another, a kind of salvation.

PC: And maybe a salary and money.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Salary and particularly if you're higher up in the ranks of these organizations then also protection.

PC: You were mentioning the United States and the UK, who both support Saudi Arabia's bombing campaign and you said to a lesser extent Canada. We know that Canadian-made LAVs, light armored vehicles, are reportedly turning up on the frontlines. As a Canadian, what role do you think your government, our government should be playing?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Well, I must say I am hugely disappointed in the fact that when the Liberal government took over, they honoured that contract, which was to be fair signed by the previous government. We have a prime minister who is very active on the world stage and pro women's rights and pro human rights and gay rights. But all of that seems to kind of disappear once there is a 15 billion dollar contract at stake. And I kind of understand it intellectually, but I can't help but see the hypocrisy and the contradictions in that position.

PC: And you sit so far away from your family now, and the thing about people in diasporas is that they’re so torn, but at the same time attached to the various places that they call home. How do you help? How do you cope?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: [sighs] Well, I mean, I try to help by raising this subject, whether writing op-eds or coming on shows like this, and just raising awareness, bringing it up in discussions in classes that I teach at Ryerson. But how I cope? I mean, personally, I kind of retreat to books and reading, which is something I've spoken to somewhere else. But I mainly, I can't disengage, like, I find that I need to get up in the morning and put Yemen in Google News every morning to see what happened in the last 24 hours. And it's not the healthiest way of doing things, but I feel that if I don't do that, then I too am turning a blind eye to what's going on there.

PC: Thank you for helping us understand what's going on over there, but also for you and other Yemeni Canadians, I appreciate it very much.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Oh, it’s my pleasure. Thank you so much Piya.

PC: Kamal Al-Solaylee is an author and Associate Professor at Ryerson University School of Journalism. He joined us here in Toronto. We requested an interview with Stephane Dion, Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs. He wasn't available, but we were sent the following statement. It reads quote, “Canada condemns the attack on a funeral hall in Sana’a, Yemen and extends its deepest condolences on the resulting loss of life. This was an absolutely unacceptable and tragic derogation of international law. Canadian LAVs have been sold to Saudi Arabia for over 20 years. All checks to date indicate the equipment has not been used inappropriately.” That from the minister of foreign affairs. Alright, if you've been wondering where Anna-Maria Tremonti has been this week, well, she and part of The Current team are in Prince George, BC. They're there right now where The Current will be hosting a special public forum tonight. This live taping of The Current at the Prince George Civic Centre will be dedicated to the issue of murdered and missing Indigenous women. It's also where we will be unveiling a special new journalistic project on The Current. A short virtual reality documentary on the infamous Highway of Tears. Tonight's event in Prince George is the first of a series of public forums we'll be hosting across our country. So stay tuned for more details and go to our website for more information. If you're in the Prince George area and interested in attending, cbc.ca/thecurrent. You can hear the Prince George forum on a special edition of The Current this Monday. And that is also when we'll make available our virtual reality documentary for download. So you yourself can experience it on your own smartphone. More details as ever on our cbc.ca/thecurrent. And in about half an hour from now, we'll check in with Anna-Maria in Prince George for more. By the way if you want to get in touch with us about anything you hear here on The Current, you can do so by emailing us, go to the website, again it’s cbc.ca/thecurrent, click on the Contact link. You can find us on Twitter, our handle there is @TheCurrentCBC. Mine is @Piya, that is P-i-y-a. And of course, we are on Facebook, facebook.com/cbcthecurrent. Alright. The news is next, and then I'll speak with the first female presidential candidate in Somalia's history. And we'll hear why Fadumo Dayib believes she can be the change Somalia needs. I’m Piya Chattopadhyay, you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Extro]

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Could Fadumo Dayib become Somalia's first female president?

Guests: Fadumo Dayib

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Hi, I'm Piya Chattopadhyay, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

PC: Still to come, we'll check in on your reactions to the stories we have been following. We'll get to your thoughts on everything from tuna to electoral reform. And we'll check in with Anna-Maria Tremonti about the public forum happening tonight in Prince George, British Columbia, and The Current’s new virtual reality documentary on the Highway of Tears. That's in half an hour. But first, a potential disruptor-in-chief.

[Music: The Disruptors theme]

SOUNDCLIP

NEWSCASTER: We are back now at 8:43, with a trip inside the most dangerous place on Earth, Mogadishu Somalia.

[Sound: gunfire]

NEWS REPORTER: Heavily armed troops guard the popular hotel as gunfire rings out across the Somali capital.

VOICE 1: Somalia, on the Horn of Africa, is the world's worst failed state. It is also an al-Qaeda sanctuary that is attracting a surprising number of Americans.

VOICE 2: Somalia is a devastated country. Decades of conflict and failed efforts for peace have left the East African nation facing desperate poverty and lawlessness.

PC: Well, the road to recovery for Somalia is a long one and it is a hard one. Since civil war began to tear it apart in the 1990s, the African nation has been mired in violence and instability. And it has become the home terrain to militant groups including al-Shabaab, al-Qaeda and now ISIS. However, last year a glimmer of hope came from a United Nations official who declared Somalia no longer a failed state but a recovering fragile one. And as the country gets set to hold elections later this month, our next guest would like to take Somalia much further down that road to recovery. Though she has spent much of her life away from her native Somalia, Fadumo Dayib believes she can now be the disruptor her country needs. She was born in Kenya, as a teenager she was forced back to Somalia, but then she ultimately sought a new life in Helsinki, Finland where she arrived as an asylum seeker, and has lived for more than two decades. In her lifetime, she has been a refugee, a nurse, a public health expert, an activist, a Ph.D. candidate and a mother. And now she is adding another title to that long list. Fadumo Dayib could become the first female president of Somalia in elections slated for the end of this month. And she joins us today from Nairobi, Kenya. Hello.

FADUMO DAYIB: Hello, good afternoon.

PC: It has been decades since you lived in Somalia. Now you want to go back and run to be its next president, why?

FADUMO DAYIB: Because I believe it's a moral obligation, it's a civic duty. I was born to two displaced parents in Kenya, in a place called Thika, not a camp. They were illegally in the country. My family was forcefully deported in 1989 by the Kenyan government. We ended up in Somalia as refugees in Mogadishu when the war broke out in 1990. I was tasked with taking my two younger siblings to safety and we ended up in Finland. And I've lived there for the past 26 years on and off, watching from the sidelines as bloodletting continued in Somalia, hoping that we were going to have a leadership that would enable us to go back home. And when that wasn't forthcoming, I realized I was the leader that I was looking for. And I decided I was going to declare my candidacy when we were told that we were going to have democratic elections in 2016. And that is how I decided to do this.

PC: And when you talk about that moral duty that you feel. As a person who has been living in so many places and displaced for so many years, talk to me more about what that moral duty feels like to you?

FADUMO DAYIB: I believe my life is a vocational calling. My mother lost 11 children, I was the first of her children to survive. And I have always thought that there was a meaning, there was a reason for that, and that reason was for me to serve humanity. I'm a servant and that is the calling of my life. And so everything that I do has always been to serve people, either as a nurse or in the UN, also in Finland working with refugees and currently going back to Somalia to do that. And so, I believe that it is a moral duty, it's a civic duty, it's a moral obligation for us to help people who are in a weaker position, people who are suffering, particularly if we have the expertise, we have the, you know, the capacity, the capability. I believe doing nothing means you're also guilty and you're part of the problem and that is why I'm taking this very seriously and I'm hoping that millions of other Somalis will also take it seriously, and go back to help Somalia. And the ones who are already inside the country will, you know, further continue to strengthen the reconstruction, the rebuilding that is happening inside the country.

PC: You say to go back, and in a way for you, it is going back home. And yet, you've spent so much of your life away from Somalia. Why do you need to go home?

FADUMO DAYIB: I have lived in several different countries, and each and every moment, a brief moment of time that I've spent in these countries I felt I was at home, but my heart is in Somalia. Ever since as a young child when we were forcefully displaced from Kenya, I was given a white card that said go home and home was Somalia. It has always been that. And even though I've been away from it for many many years, I've yearned, it's always been there. Every time I go to sleep I see it in my dreams, every waking hour it's in my thoughts. I mean, this is the place that I belong and this is where the place my children will belong. And that is why wherever I go in the world of course I feel at home. But the motherland, the place that pulls me, that I know is my place where I was generally directed to, and which I hope one day we will all go back to is Somalia. It has always been that and it will always be that.

PC: What do you think your prospects are of winning the election?

FADUMO DAYIB: I think the prospects for anyone who wants to actually do justice, who wants to move the country forward constructively, who has the capacity, who has the patriotism, the passion, their prospect is actually very very low. Because unfortunately the 4.5 clan based system is a highly corrupt system. It's one whereby one has to buy votes, one has to bribe a lot of people, has to break the constitution because the system itself is breaking the constitution, it's illegal, it's unconstitutional. So those are the kind of people who, you know, will flourish and who will make it through this system. But people who want to see democracy, people who want to stay out of corruption, people who want to uphold the constitution don't stand a chance of winning in a 4.5 electoral system.

PC: So explain the 4.5 clan system, because most people won't be familiar with that. It is something that you've been very outspoken for the need to do away with in Somalia. So what is the 4.5 clan system?

FADUMO DAYIB: In my mind and in the minds of people who have been oppressed, subjugated by this system, this is a system that is highly oppressive, it's a system that is elitist, it's a system that comprises of four so-called clans, and this clans are clans that are thought to be 100 per cent pure Somalis. It's a system that is very similar to the Hindu caste system. It's very similar to the apartheid system that existed in South Africa. It's a system that oppresses and silences 99 per cent of the Somali population, because it is a highly male dominated elitist, one per cent that decides on behalf of 99 per cent. And that has been holding the country hostage for almost more than 30 years. This is a system that has taken away voting rights, democratic rights from Somalis for the past 48 years. And it's a system that shouldn't exist in the 21st century. And that is why if we want to prosper, if we want to move Somalia forward, if we want to be taken seriously, if we want to compete with other countries on the continent, we must do away with this system because it is the root cause of conflict inside the country.

PC: Well, what happened? Because when you first declared your candidacy, Somalia had promised to hold its first democratic elections with one person casting one vote. And that isn't the case anymore for this month's elections, so what happened?

FADUMO DAYIB: What happened was that the administration that came into office, particularly the president, instead of focusing on vision 2016, which was his road map. He was very busy fighting his prime ministers, and had to do away with three different prime ministers during the four years that he was in power. So instead of focusing on really delivering the results he promised, you know, meeting the objectives, the goals that he had set out in vision 2016, he was busy fighting his prime ministers and not really focusing on things that were of importance, of priority in the country. And that is why we're in this mess and that mess is enabled and allowed by this 4.5 based clan system, because it's an incompetent system. It's a system that attracts people who are incompetent, who cannot actually deliver results. And that is why you see the predicament that the country is in. And to have this same administration coming back for another four years is really a nightmare, it's a disaster, it's almost, you know, taking back the country almost 50 years backwards. And I am hoping that we shall move forward. And I meant to say about the 4.5 system that, you know, it's the four major clans and then the point fives, it's almost saying they're subhuman. These are minority clans, these are clans that are seen as being not 100 per cent Somalis, and who are ostracized, you know, ethnically cleansed and who are being violated in many ways and who are being treated unjustly inside the country. So, it's a system that silences women, the youth, and also vulnerable communities.

PC: Fadumo Dayib, you are not just the first woman to run for the highest office in Somalia ever. As we can hear, you are a very outspoken woman. And I'm curious about how people have reacted to you being the only woman running in this election.

FADUMO DAYIB: Actually, I’m not the first Somali woman to ever run for the presidency. As a young girl in the eighties, I remember there was a lady who was a good friend of my mother who also ran for the presidency at that time. And even this year, there's another lady, I understand there is two more ladies who are running and there could be more. And this to me is wonderful that we have women running, and I hope that the numbers will increase and more will come forward. And as for being outspoken, I think this is really what we need inside the country. We don't need politicians who will lie, who have lied for the past almost 50 years. What we need are people who are capable of being truthful, who are honest, who are forthright, and who can speak to the issues without being scared or stigmatized or being told to shut up. And so, I am one of those people who will never be silenced. As long as I'm alive, I will speak about inequities, inequalities, the injustice that is happening inside the country and particularly this deplorable 4.5 clan based system, which is holding the country hostage.

PC: And as you speak out, and as you say you will not stop speaking out, you will not shut up, you've been getting death threats against you. How dangerous is this for you?

FADUMO DAYIB: Of course it's very dangerous in any society where women step forward and people speak about, you know, painful things, you know, things that are taboo. There are people in each society who feel that violence is the only way to solve and to deal with problems. And so, in Somalia there is a segment of the population that believes violence is the solution to everything. And I am of the opinion that no, if violence were the solution Somalia would be the most peaceful country on Earth, considering the amount of violence that has happened inside the country. I believe dialogue, reconciliation, you know, peace, respect, upholding the constitution and respecting the rule of law, this to be really the key to peace and to prosperity inside the country. And so, of course, the threat is there and I will do everything possible to mitigate that and to make sure nothing happens to me. But of course, I also need, you know, funding to be able to have security inside the country and that's what I'm currently working on. I don't have security inside Somalia, and my focus is on making sure that I stay alive to be able to realize my vision and to do what needs to be done inside the country. Which is paving the country, paving the way for democratization, making sure that we challenge, we tackle corruption, we tackle human rights violations, you know, making sure that the masses are educated on voting. What is voting all about, on women's rights, equality, equity and all of these things. And that is what I'm focusing on and that is why I'm moving to Somalia to work on these things.

PC: There are a slew of very challenging problems, some of which you just outlined, that Somalia is facing. The lack of a stable government, the president of al-Shabaab, of al-Qaeda, poverty, corruption. Where would you even start in addressing all of that?

FADUMO DAYIB: I would start with security, security is very important. So the pillars I had outlined was security, economic prosperity, and then the foundation to these two pillars being peace and reconciliation. And so, we have to make sure that the Somali national armed forces, particularly the Somali national security sector is strengthened. And that calls for having a drawback strategy from AMISOM, with understanding that there will be a, you know, gradual retreat of AMISOM, as the Somali national army’s capacity is strengthened. And, you know, their forces trained, equipped and reequipped, so that they can take on what needs to be done inside the country. We also need to focus on having a dialogue with the militias, with also al-Shabaab, with the pirates, with all these other entities who have declared that their main aim is to get power. And so, if they want power then they must come to the peace table and negotiate. With al-Shabab, there are three conditions: they must disarm, they must stop killing Somalis and they must renounce the international, you know, their affiliation with international terrorism. And if they do this, then they are welcome to the peace table. We need to also make sure that the educational system is up and running. We have 1.7 Somali children out of school, 1.7 million Somali children out of school. We have 12 million Somalis, of that, 67 per cent are unemployed, and this youth, you know, particularly when you look at the population, almost 75 per cent of the youth is under the age of 30. Of that, 67 is is unemployed. That in itself is also a security risk, education, health care, you know, basic infrastructure. There’s a lot of things to be done, but the two things I would focus on would be really security and then economic prosperity. Job creation, making sure that, you know, vocational schooling is available so that they can be trained, they can work and provide taxes. This is where we can start from.

PC: Your origin story and your journey over the years, and the passion with which you speak about Somalia it is very very apparent and interesting. And I just want to go back for a sec. You left Somalia, I think you were 18, you were a teenager when you left. What do you remember about your country, about your home, about that time as a teenager?

FADUMO DAYIB: I was fortunate enough to see when Somalia had a government, when Somalia had dignity, when Somalia had independent sovereignty. I grew up in that era, in the society where women used to go to work, you know, and played a big role in the society. When Somaliness has preceded everything else, and so I remember, I have very vivid and fond memories of that time. And that is what keeps me going and it helps me to be able to also envision what Somalia could be like when we gain, you know, peace and prosperity. And so, this is what I remember, the smells, the sounds, the food, everything. And this is what I, almost every day, I feel these sensations even though I haven't been in the country for some time.

PC: And when you left Somalia, you ended up as an asylum seeker in Finland. And I'm just wondering given what you just said, remembering all that stuff, but being very present when you arrived in Finland as an asylum seeker, and your journey from there through Finland to where you are today. When you look back at your journey, how did you go from arriving as a teenage asylum seeker in Finland to where you are today?

FADUMO DAYIB: It was because the Finnish society is a society that provides opportunities, that gives opportunities to people. And when I came to Finland, the first night I spent in a motel that was at the centre of Helsinki, I realized that despite all, you know, having a disadvantaged background and everything else that had happened in my life, that I was given a new lease in life. Here I was where, you know, opportunities were abundant. I could study, even though I had only perfected the art of reading at the age of 14 and had less than five years schooling of primary and secondary schooling, you know, combined. And Finland, instead of rejecting me and saying she's 18 and has less than five years formal education, they gently directed me towards vocational schooling. From there, I went on to do auxiliary nursing, I went on to do a bachelor's in nursing, then two masters in health, one in public health and the other health care sciences, I was working in the country. When others had unpacked their suitcases, mine was always at the door, because I knew that asylum wasn't a permanent status for me, and that one day I would be required to go back and help my country and my people. And so I needed to gain the skills that would enable me to do that and that had always kept me going. My host country was very welcoming, it gave me the opportunities, you know, education, economic emancipation, these are the two keys, important critical keys to life that will enable one to be enlightened and, you know, be able to do what they need to do. And so, this are opportunities that are missing from most of the people in disadvantaged, you know, contexts in countries that are in conflict. If they were given these opportunities, imagine how peaceful this world would be when all these people would go back and help their own countries. So really, Finland gave me opportunities. It is the same opportunities I want to realize in Somalia and give it to people who don't have that.

PC: As you said at the beginning of our conversation, you know realistically that the chances of you being elected and you gave reasons for it are small. So short of your being elected this month to be president of Somalia, what would success look like to you?

FADUMO DAYIB: When I started on this journey, the first interview I ever gave, which is online, that was in, I believe, September 2014 and I said I'm declaring my candidacy, because we're going to have democratic elections, one person one vote. And I spoke in that interview about the the main objective of this journey really being social change. For me, it isn't about getting into

PC: Fadumo Dayib, it has been a pleasure to talk to you. And as I said and I will say again, your passion is very apparent. Thank you very much for talking with us today. I appreciate it.

FADUMO DAYIB: Thank you for the opportunity.

PC: Fadumo Dayib is running to be the next President of Somalia. Those elections are slated for later this month. We reached her in Nairobi, Kenya. If you have something to say about what you just heard or anything else on The Current, there are many ways to get in touch with this program. You can tweet @TheCurrentCBC, you can find me on Twitter as well, my handle is @Piya, that is P-i-y-a. If you prefer on social media Facebook, facebook.com/cbcthecurrent is the way to find us. Or you can email us by going to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Once you get there, you click on the Contact Us link and send us an email. Alright, coming up in our next half hour, we are checking in on your feedback on some of the hot topics from the past week. Plus, Anna-Maria Tremonti who is in Prince George, BC, getting ready to host a public forum and unveil a new virtual reality documentary on the Highway of Tears, and talk to her. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay, you're listening to The Current. We're back in a bit.

[Music: Extro]

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Hi, I'm Piya Chattopadhyay, and you’re listening to The Current.

[Music: Checking in theme]

SOUNDCLIP

HOMA HOODFAR: And I'm grateful to all the people who launched this global campaign to get me free.

VOICE 1: It's a chronically overburdened system. Canada has some of the highest rates of children in care in the world.

NATHAN CULLEN: No. 18 million people voted in the last election, more than half of those votes went towards electing nobody. Seems to me like just a basic flaw of the system.

VOICE 2: It is definitely not something that you can imagine. Seeing the pictures you can maybe feel pain and everything, but when you get there and talk to people in that environment it’s heartbreaking.

PC: Some sounds from the week that was here on The Current. And as always, we have received lots of feedback from you about the stories we've been covering. Here to help me go through some of your emails, tweets, and posts is The Current’s associate producer Julian Uzielli. Hello.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Hi Piya.

PC: We've been spending a lot of time this week--

JULIAN UZIELLI: We have.

PC: Behind the scenes, talking about sports. The Jays.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Mhmm. The Jays of course have been a big story this week.

PC: And you walked in here and said.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Let's talk about Auston Matthews.

PC: Uh huh.

JULIAN UZIELLI: This is the new rookie on the Leafs. He had his first game in the NHL last night, he scored four goals, which is a record. So, I’m I'll admit, I'm a fair weather Leafs fan. I was sitting at home not watching the game, I was reading, but I looked on Twitter and saw this kid is going wild. I turn on the game, he didn't score another goal. The Leafs lost in overtime.

PC: [laughs] My husband was yelling from the upper floors, I didn't why. He came down and he told me this thing about this hockey player and I said uh huh. And then he said watch this, and it was his mom in the stands crying. It was a sweet moment.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Mhmm.

PC: Anyway, we have to talk about other things other than sport. So let us get to our mail. Last Thursday on the show, we spoke with Homa Hoodfar, the Canadian-Iranian anthropologist who spent 112 days in Iran's notorious Evin prison. She returned to Canada two weeks ago, when she told Anna-Maria she survived her time in captivity by treating it as an assignment.

SOUNDCLIP

HOMA HOODFAR: I considered this as a field work and I made mental notes. And because I didn't have pen and pencil initially, I wrote with the tail of my toothbrush on the marble stone, just to remind, to make mental notes. So every night I would then make more notes and review my previous notes. Some of my cellmates felt I was crazy writing on a wall with the tail of my [laughs] toothbrush. But that's how I made it a lot easier to deal with this situation.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Well, this story touched a nerve with a lot of listeners. Sheila Nazerali in Barrie, Ontario wrote, “what an amazing woman. To use her imprisonment as a field research project and to act as a social worker to her fellow inmates is truly an extraordinary way to survive her ordeal. She is an inspiration and her approach should be taught to anyone who is at risk of false imprisonment.”

PC: Omni Milne in Vancouver wrote to say, “while it is important to highlight constant human rights abuses in Iran, let us remember Western institutions that acted likewise. The Spanish Inquisition, or Joseph McCarthy and his Cold War tactics. The West has been a good teacher for those who wish to dehumanize and destroy.”

JULIAN UZIELLI: And Linda Regan in Calgary had this to say, “I love your show and tune in regularly, but I have just turned the dial this morning. As I have no desire to hear the interview with Homa Hoodfar. Individuals who go to or return to countries experiencing conflict are irresponsible and do not often make themselves accountable for such actions. The expectation is often that governments, friends and family will save them in their time of need. But unless your profession takes you there such as a journalist, then just stay away. You are putting yourself at risk and then expect the world to rescue you.”

PC: Alright. Let us move on to another story.

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Monday: Watch The Current's virtual reality Highway of Tears documentary

Guests: Anna-Maria Tremonti

SOUNDCLIP

MATILDA WILSON: My name is Matilda Wilson. I have six children all together and Ramona is the youngest one. She was 16 years old when she was murdered on June 11, 1994. They hired her in June to be a peer counselor for the Smithers community service and she was so ecstatic about that. Saturday was the day she was to meet her friends, and you know, there's no buses running or transits or anything like that. She never made it there.

PC: Ramona Wilson is one of the women who went missing along the Highway of Tears, a stretch of Highway 16 in northern British Columbia where Indigenous communities say as many as 50 women and girls have gone missing in the past 50 years. The tape you just heard of Ramona's mom is from a short virtual reality documentary that The Current has produced, that will be released on Monday morning. It will also be shown at a series of public forums The Current’s Anna-Maria Tremonti is hosting across our country to explore the issue of missing and murdered Indigenous women. The first of these forums is being held in Prince George and broadcast on The Current here on Monday. Anna-Maria Tremonti is in Prince George, British Columbia.

PC: Hi.

ANNA-MARIA TREMONTI: Hi, Piya.

PC: Tell me the story about Ramona Wilson.

AMT: Well, as you heard there, she was just a teenager. She was going to meet her friends in June of 1994. They were going to graduation parties and she never arrived. She was missing for a year. They didn't know where to find her. And eventually, they found her body in a wooded area near Smithers airport a year later. And she became one of the missing and murdered of the Highway of Tears, the women who have disappeared along that highway. It was believed that she was hitchhiking to get to where she needed to go, because there was no other way to go.

PC: So she's one of the 50 women, as I said, that have gone missing in the past 50 years along that stretch of highway in northern British Columbia. And The Current has produced CBC’s first virtual reality documentary to help tell that broader story. So Anna-Maria, for people who have never, you know, we've heard of VR, virtual reality, but for people who've never experienced virtual reality, just explain how it works.

AMT: Well, it essentially uses cameras that give you a 360 degree view of wherever you are. So when you actually look, you have to view it through a viewer, but you can get actually very inexpensive viewers. If you look forward, if you look around ,you look up, you look down, you will see the place that we are reporting on as if you were standing there looking at it all. And so, that's what virtual reality does. So in the case of the Highway of Tears, we have you on the highway and we bring you into Matilda's home as she talks about Ramona. So virtual reality is more experiential, it allows you to try to be in the middle of something, to understand a story in a different way.

PC: You're a radio broadcaster. This is a radio show. I'm curious about what inspired The Current, the team, to use this new technology.

AMT: Well, a couple of things. I've always said that when you listen to the radio, you don't hear words, you actually create images in your mind. So radio is closer to painting a picture in what we do on a regular basis anyway. What we are doing is using the technology that exists now to bring our stories to life, no matter where. Like, in your head, online, in front of your face, you know, within sight. And with virtual reality, you don't need to put it up on a TV screen, you can put it up on a small screen on your smartphone, it can live online. And so it is a way for us to take a story that we believe matters a great deal and add another dimension to it so that people understand what this is really all about.

PC: And so, to that point Anna-Maria, on this program you have covered the issues of missing and murdered Indigenous women in Canada. What do you think that that VR experience can help Canadians better understand that issue?

AMT: First of all, you'll see the Highway of Tears, you'll stand on the side of the Highway of Tears at night as cars go by, not that many, a big truck goes by, so you understand the isolation in another way. You'll see it from above and you will also meet someone who lives there and hear her story. So you'll understand what that highway is, because we talk about a highway, but this is a very isolated stretch of British Columbia. Interestingly enough Piya, the very first edition of The Current, when we first went to air in November of 2002, our second story was a documentary on the Highway of Tears, which was brought to us by Joan Webber, who's now our documentary editor in Vancouver. And when she pitched that story for our first edition of The Current on the Highway of Tears, I said what is that? I've never heard of the Highway of Tears. That was 2002. And now, Highway of Tears has become a symbol, even beyond that that geographic area for missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. But at the time, in 2002 there were six documented cases of missing or murdered Indigenous women. Now if you talk to Indigenous leaders, it is up to 50. If you talk to investigators, they have 18 on their list, but the numbers have grown and this highway has continued to be a threat for a very long time.

PC: You know, it's so interesting that you talk about the Highway of Tears, because it's a term that I have heard a lot. Many of us have. But the idea that with VR I can, is it fair to say I will feel it? To see it in 3D kind a way?

AMT: It's fair to say that it'll hit you at another level. You may or may not depending on your reaction, but people do. We've actually shown it to people who didn't know a lot about it and they're very moved by Matilda’s story and sitting in a room with her, as you sit there, it's almost voyeuristic in some ways. She agreed to do this, but you can look around and see where she lives and you see how much it matters to her just by the look on her face. She just tells you the story of her daughter and you see the highway. But of course, we don't use virtual reality just in and of itself and this is where we're doing something very different. We're using it as a jump off point to have a wider community conversation, which is why we're in Prince George. People will come and be able to view it there. And then after they see it, we can have the conversation with that in their minds and then the conversation that we have will then go on the air next week, and then it will also live online along with the virtual reality. So it's trigger for the wider conversation to understand more about why this conversation about missing and murdered and Indigenous women and girls matters so much.

PC: So that's the public forum in Prince George. You're doing other ones, you're hosting other public forums, where else are you going to go?

AMT: Yes, we are. We will be in Vancouver, we are talking about Winnipeg and Toronto. We may have another city or two to go to as well, but we're going to go to several cities and do this.

PC: Good to talk to you. Thank you for letting me sit in your chair this week. You'll be back here on Monday in this chair with the virtual reality documentary Anna-Maria, thanks.

AMT: Thanks Piya.

PC: Anna-Maria Tremonti is the host of this program. She's in Prince George, British Columbia recording a special edition of The Current, focusing on the Highway of Tears. As you just heard us say, you will be able to hear that here on The Current on Monday.

JULIAN UZIELLI: OK. Let's move onto another story we've been following. Last week calls to overhaul Canada's foster care system resurfaced after disturbing news out of BC. A report found that at least 233 cases of sexualized violence against young people under government care in BC had been reported since 2011. Marni Brownell is a Professor in the Department of Community Health Sciences at the University of Manitoba, and she joined us to explain what she sees as the problems in Canada's approach to foster care.

SOUNDCLIP

MARNI BROWNELL: It's a chronically overburdened system. Canada has some of the highest rates of children in care in the world, and the way our system works is that we remove children from the situation. So we remove them from the home, and that does nothing to address the family and community vulnerability towards child maltreatment. It's really a short term solution that doesn't address the needs of families and communities.

PC: After we heard from Marni Brownell, we heard from you. Tammy Law in Toronto wrote in to say, “as a lawyer who does a lot of child welfare work, I cannot agree more with your guest. There needs to be a fundamental shift in the way we do child protection work. For many people and communities, protection has become synonymous with removal of children from their families. What really needs to happen are intensive efforts to keep families together. This requires one, money, two, a shift in attitude and three, better legislation.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Lyba Spring in Toronto writes, “the introduction to the story quoted to statistics about the high number of Indigenous children in foster care who were abused. I kept waiting for someone to address the elephant in the room. The direct line that can be sometimes drawn from abuse in residential schools to ongoing chaotic parenting and cycles of abuse. Real prevention means counseling for parents and their children who have suffered directly or indirectly from sexual abuse in particular. The reconciliation part of our recent commission must include funding for this type of extensive work.

PC: And Donna Glover in Winnipeg wrote in to say, “in Winnipeg there are over 50 AA group meetings happening every week. There is not one weekly sharing circle or support meeting for victims of sexual violence. If a person was sexually abused as a child, they are on their own. They are on their own to figure out that they need to get a referral from a doctor to get a counsellor. It may take six months to a year. No wonder people drink.”

JULIAN UZIELLI: We also heard from you on Facebook. Lisa Ayres commented, “this is disgusting and a total failure of the system. Aren't these quote unquote parents vetted before they’re allowed to have the children in their home? And Nilab Tughian Ferozan wrote, “I wonder why there's not a better system to deal with foster children? This has been going on for years and no one comes up with a system that protects these already vulnerable children. It hurts to read the news these days.”

PC: OK, let's move on.

Back To Top »

Ethiopia using state of emergency to target opposition, says critic

Guests: Mohammed Ademo

SOUNDCLIP

[Non-English language]

[Through translator] Having done this, going back to Ethiopia means suicide. They will kill me, if not killing, they will imprison me and torture me. And even if they don't do that, they will block me from going out and participating in any sort of sport or international athletics.

PC: That is Feyisa Lilesa speaking to us through a translator. The Ethiopian athlete and silver medalist at the Rio Olympics joined us on The Current in early September to explain why he wasn't going back home after the games. He made headlines after he crossed the finish line in Rio with his arms over his head in the symbol of an X, in solidarity with the Oromo people, the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia. The Oromo people have been protesting for months, saying they are persecuted and marginalized by the government. Since we spoke to Mr. Lilesa, the situation in Ethiopia has worsened. On the weekend, the government declared a state of emergency after protests intensified in reaction to the government's heavy handed crackdown at an Oromo religious festival earlier this month. Now, government forces fired tear gas into the crowd gathered to celebrate. The government says 52 people were killed in the stampede as the crowd rushed for the exit. But opposition parties say as many as 600 people were killed. Mohammed Ademo is the founder and editor of OPride, it is an online publication for the Oromo people. And we have reached him in Washington, DC. Hello.

MOHAMMED ADEMO: Hello, how are you?

PC: I am OK. Explain to me what this state of emergency means for people living in Ethiopia?

MOHAMMED ADEMO: The Oromo people in the Oromia state have been living under a similar state of emergency since March 2015. What this latest declaration of a state of emergency does is it makes that official, you know, official in the eyes of Ethiopia’s foreign backers, and it gives security forces more leeway. And essentially, they are doubling down on the repression and the crackdown that is already happening on the ground. And, you know, the security forces now have the right to arrest anyone without warrant or any question. They can shut down media, they have already cut the internet for the past 10 days. It just means that they can kill without any question and any accountability.

PC: And when you are talking to your friends back home, how are they describing the atmosphere in these past 10 days?

MOHAMMED ADEMO: It is truly appalling. And, you know, I've heard from a mother who couldn't take her sick child to a hospital and her baby died. And she couldn't even go rally the neighbours to help her bury the body she had to bury her dead baby alone. And I've heard from elders who are starving in their houses and people who, if you venture outside after dark in a group of two, you best know that you are going to disappear or you're going to get killed. It is a very securitized situation, people are terrified. And you don't know who is in charge, you don't know who is accountable. And since the internet is cut off, anything can happen right now and a lot of people are dying already in the West Arsi zone. In the past five, six days we are getting reports of at least 200 people have been killed-- [dead air]

PC: Hello?

MOHAMMED ADEMO: Including people who were killed at a community.

PC: Sorry, I think the line was just dropping out there. And what has it been like for you Mohammed? You know, you’re in Washington, felt like, you've been watching your people go through this?

MOHAMMED ADEMO: You know, when the stampede happened on Sunday, you know, I have family members who were there, I have friends who were there. And since they cut off the phone, it was very hard to get hold of people and it was very scary situation, because the reports we were getting, what the government was reporting, as you've indicated in your report. You know, the numbers range from 50 to 600 and it has been very difficult to follow these events. And really, it makes you feel hopeless, because you are removed and you can't help, you can't really do much. But we are trying our best to, you know, get the story out, to raise awareness, so that more people know about it and hopefully show some concern in governments like yours in Canada, who gives a lot of aid to the Ethiopian government. We are hoping that they can hear the cries of people on the ground and take some action.

PC: So help us understand this more, what started the protest by the Oromo people against the Ethiopian government?

MOHAMMED ADEMO: The Oromo are the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia and the protests started when the government, the central government, sought to expand Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia into the surrounding Oromo small towns. The expansion meant that Oromo farmers will be displaced from their land, which has been happening for generations. You know, Addis Ababa used to be an Oromo land, and today if you go to Addis Ababa, there is no trace of Oromo, it is a foreign country. You know, people run into each other, and if you run into an Oromo speaking person in Addis Ababa, you get surprised, because it is a foreign city for many Oromos. And the expansion meant that this trend of uprooting the Oromo culture, uprooting the Oromo people and their language will continue. And then, when people protested opposing the expansion, the government responded by arresting Oromo leaders, activists and killing protesters. So gradually, the protesters demands had shifted from question about land expansion to, you know, human rights violation, government abuses, historical marginalization of the Oromo, who, despite their numerical majority, had no power or say in the affairs of the government, in the economy and they are socially repressed. And now, you know, the government of course, took the plan off the table, but by that time, you know, the demands have already shifted and now people are saying, you know, we're tired of this, we tired of the rule by a few minority ethnic group and we want this to change and the only way this could change is if there is a real change in Ethiopia. And they’re asking for regime change at the moment so, you know, the Oromo have started the protest but other people have joined. You know, the Amharas are protesting, now the [unintelligible], the Afar, is pulling more people and people are saying this government and this system has to change.

PC: Mohammed, thank you for explaining this to us today, appreciate your time.

MOHAMMED ADEMO: Thank you for having me.

PC: Mohammed Ademo is the founder and editor of OPride, it is an online publication for the Oromo people of Ethiopia. We reached Mohammed Ademo in Washington D.C.

JULIAN UZIELLI: OK, and now moving onto another story.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN HOPKINS: The thing is it's a bit of a mystery. I mean, the fish completely disappeared. I mean, they were overfished and when they came back, they changed their behaviour. Before, they were very skittish of human beings. Now, people are hand-feeding them right over the side of the boat.

JULIAN UZIELLI: That was John Hopkins speaking to us this week about the perplexing change in behaviour of tuna off Prince Edward Island. In his documentary Bluefin, he talks about competing points of view about whether that behaviour shows Atlantic Bluefin tuna are on the rebound or at risk of being fished to extinction.

PC: I spoke with Gary Melvin, a scientist for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and he told us the stock has grown by about 75 per cent in less than a decade. And I asked him how they measure that.

SOUNDCLIP

GARY MELVIN: There are a number of methods, most of them are related to the actual fishery where we determine whether or not it's actually a fishing rate is increasing or decreasing. And that fishing rate is assumed to actually reflect what's going on with the actual population of fish.

PC: Well, filmmaker John Hopkins does not agree that DFO was using sound scientific methods to assess the health and the size of tuna stocks. After five years of research on his film and many interviews, he writes, “Bluefin are not behaving normally anymore. This intense situation is fouling the math DFO uses to assess the stock. Astonished fishermen are literally hand feeding tuna with herring beside the boats like pets, it's like fishing in an aquarium. These tuna are far too vulnerable and the data from this is throwing up false assumptions.”

JULIAN UZIELLI: Katie Schleit agrees with him. She leads work on tuna conservation at the Ecology Action Centre in Halifax. And she says the International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tuna, or ICCAT, sees this as a problem too.

SOUNDCLIP

KATIE SCHLEIT: Because there have been more tuna in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, when the fishermen go out to catch them, they're having a 100 per cent catchability. So what that means is every time they go and catch a fish, they're able to catch a fish. But this isn't actually reflective of a natural biological population. And that information is reflected in the ICCAT science assessment, where they say that the information coming out of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, their dramatic spike in the increase is actually not biologically plausible. So what scientists have said actually in 2014 was that if they removed the data from the Gulf of St. Lawrence, so the huge spike and the huge increase, the stock status is not looking like it's going upwards nearly as much.

PC: That is Katie Schleit from the Ecology Action Centre in Halifax. She also says tuna that spawn in the Mediterranean could be skewing the data too. It is a contentious issue, these fish are a sport fisherman's dream, sometimes weighing as much as a grand piano. They are very much in demand for sushi too. So how much protection Bluefin need is fodder for ongoing passionate debate.

[Theme: Checking in]

JULIAN UZIELLI: And now it's time to give credit where credit is due. The week that was on The Current was produced by Idella Sturino, Shannon Higgins, Howard Goldenthal, Ines Calabresi, and Lara O’brien, Josh Bloch and Willow Smith.

PC: Pacinthe Mattar, Sujata Barry and Liz Hoath, Karin Marley, Kristin Nelson, Peggy Lam, Marc Apollonio, John Chipman and Julian Uzielli. Our intern is Jacqueline Mckay.

JULIAN UZIELLI: The Current’s writer is Peter Mitton, our web producer is Lisa Ayuso, with the help this week from Sarah Claydon. Our technical producer is Gary Francis, our senior documentary editor is Joan Webber. And special thanks as well this week to network producers Michael O'Halloran in Calgary and Alex Mason in Halifax.

PC: Our senior producers are Richard Goddard in Toronto and Kathy Simon in Vancouver. The executive producer of The Current is Kathleen Goldhar. Thank you Julian. That is the program for today. We are going to wrap up today's show with a salute to Bob Dylan. Long considered the voice of a generation, the singer-songwriter can now add Nobel laureate to his moniker. This morning, the Swedish Academy awarded Dylan the Nobel Prize for Literature for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition. He is probably the greatest living poet, it added. Congrats to Bob Dylan. And he will get today's last word. Here is a 1964 archival recording of The Times They Are A Changing. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay sitting in for Anna-Maria Tremonti, we'll see you again tomorrow. But for now, thank you for lending us your ear here on The Current.

[Song: Bob Dylan]

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October 13, 2016 full episode transcript

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