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The Current Transcript for May 13, 2016

Host: Stephen Quinn

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

My heart is so full these days. Nothing like giving to make your heart happy.

STEPHEN QUINN: Well, for some, amidst the damage of the Fort McMurray wildfire, was a chance to step up and help others. In a moment, how sandwiches and some kindness saved the day for firefighters on the front lines. Also on the show:

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High school is a time for figuring things out. Stand up for someone being bullied and they’ll never forget you.

SQ: The world has finally woken up to the serious consequences of bullying in the schoolyard, but what about bullying in the home? A growing body of research shows that sibling bullying is an increasingly serious problem and one with consequences later in life. We'll hear what happens when the bond between brothers and sisters goes bad. And later the cacophony of commerce.

SOUNDCLIP

[Cash register dings]

[Coins rattling]

SQ: The money was music in Pink Floyd’s 1973 song, but the sound of clinking coins may soon be a thing of the past. Apple is bringing mobile payment systems to the mainstream making it easier for people to pay with their smartphones. We'll hear why the beginning of the end of cold hard cash is a problem for many privacy and security experts. But we begin with a lesson in human kindness. I'm Stephen Quinn in Vancouver. This is the Friday edition of The Current.

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'Belt Drive Betty' feeds 2,000 first responders with Fort McMurray sandwiches

Guest: Renee "Belt Drive Betty" Charbonneau

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE CHYKA: There was a volunteer at Mac Island just doing it on her own accord, making us sandwiches. Just walk up, here. Here’s a sandwich. Whatever you want, take it.

BRYAN MROZ: Slept outside on a cot.

STEVE GILLINGHAM: She did not leave that point. We were there for what? Two and a half days and she’d sleep there at night on the bench…Betty was her name, right?

MIKE CHYKA: Yeah. We were walking by to relieve our crew. It was about 2:30 in the morning. I couldn’t see her, but she says, grab some sandwiches. I was like, where did that come from? Like, she’s on the cot behind the table…Non-stop. Always had fresh coffee for us.

SQ: Steve Gillingham, Bryan Mroz, and Mike Chyka, three firefighters from St. Albert back on the front lines of the Fort McMurray wildfire. They were speaking with Anna Maria Tremonti earlier this week, describing how grateful they were for the hospitality of a woman they knew only as Betty. Well, Betty is actually, Renee "Belt Drive Betty" Charbonneau, editor of the motorcycle magazine, The Busted Knuckle Chronicles. And we reached Betty Charbonneau in Two Hills, Alberta. Hello.

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: Hello, how are you today, Stephen?

SQ: I'm very well. How are you doing?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: I am doing amazingly well. My heart is so full these days. Nothing like giving to make your heart happy.

SQ: Did you realize how appreciated you were?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: To a man, every one of them, hugging me, the gifts that they gave me. One of the Syncrude firefighters, Glen, actually gave me his personal challenge coin, which, for those that don't know what a challenge coin is, it's usually given to someone for meritorious service and it's not often that a civilian gets one of these coins.

SQ: What does it mean to you to get that kind of recognition from all of those frontline responders?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: It's a little overwhelming. Like them, I tend to not look at myself as having done anything truly special.

SQ: Tell me how it all came together. When did you get the idea and how did you pull it off?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: I was watching the news on Monday May 3rd and feeling very Impotent and wishing that there was something i could do. Like many Canadians, our hearts were breaking watching this scene unfold. On Tuesday morning, May 4th, my husband's birthday, I was watching Darby Allen, the Fire Chief. And he mentioned his front line responders, didn't have any food and water. So, one phone call, two emails, and a post on Facebook, and about five hours later my contractor Linda, who drove her diesel truck and travel trailer, were on our way with a firefighter from Grovedale, Jesse Cappel. And the riding community, the motorcycle community of Canada, the donations started pouring into me so that we could fill that truck. Costco donated 350 dollars and UFA out of Grand Prairie and Athabasca made sure we had diesel for our truck. And we just headed out and got into the Anzac checkpoint and, of course, the fire was jumping from one side of the highway to the other and at one point, actually, the highway was on fire. So no one could get through. We were feeding RCMP officers. That was the first first responders we started helping. Because even though they had a camp fairly close by, a lot of them couldn't get away to get anything to eat. At about 11:30 we were allowed through the roadblock under escort into Mac Island and we set up our station. And the very first firefighter that came around the corner in his rig, when he got out, you could see the fatigue. The man was shaking from head to toe, really big man. He asked me, he said, ma'am, this wouldn't be for us by any chance? And I said, absolutely, it is, darlin’. We, the motorcycle community of Alberta, are here to support you. And he started to cry. He said, you know, I haven't had anything to eat except Ritz Crackers and granola bars in the last 62 hours.

SQ: Betty, what was it like for you driving through the city?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: Eerie. Scary. Everywhere you looked there were flames, smoke, things smouldering, vehicles abandoned, buildings burnt. The smell was horrific.

SQ: No second thoughts at all when you hit the fire on the highway?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: No. As a matter of fact, we were getting impatient. We wanted to get in there and get these supplies to these people because exhaustion and dehydration are two of the worst things that can happen to anyone. You know, I’ve got to tell you that, to a person that we met out there, the women firefighters, the male firefighters, the EMS, the truck drivers that were bringing in fuel and water, and all of the big brass from the fire department - these people are so humble. I watched a firefighter with a grey cat who had four bandaged paws, all of his whiskers and eyebrows burnt off, and this great big gentle giant of a man just petting that kitty cat and letting him know he was safe. And it was just, you know, these people don't understand how what a special mentality they have.

SQ: So, Betty, once you arrived, how did you decide where you're going to set up shop?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: It was really easy to figure that out. We set out on the sidewalk in front of the Suncor Community Centre, directly across from fire command so that the trucks could see the minute they came in.

SQ: And how many people do you figure you fed?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: Well, I know in the first, oh, 29 or 30 hours I made over 800 sandwiches. And we had trucks running back and forth from Grand Prairie. So we just constantly had this supply chain going. They would drive the product into us, drop it off and leave. And again the motorcycle community of Alberta and Canada, we had everything from individual independent riders supporting us to members of outlaw clubs, one per cent clubs, and military and firefighter clubs. We even had support from the Wetaskiwin Sheriffs who ride. I, myself, I'm with the Canadian Army Veterans Motorcycle Unit. It was just amazing to see all of our community come together, feeding upwards of 2,000 people at some point. And all of these people, didn't matter what patch they wore or didn’t wear, they just wanted to help. They were just people who have big hearts and said, you know what? We can make a difference here.

SQ: And how long were you there all together?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: Well, I got there May 4th and I finally arrived home May 10th.

SQ: And were you really sleeping on a cot or a bench behind the sandwich stand?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: Yes, sir. I didn't want to leave my boys and girls. They became my family. T

SQ: Did you get any sleep at all?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: Yeah, I got a couple hours here and there and, you know, finally had a cold shower, I think it was on Friday night. That felt good because my hair was so crusty from all the ash in the air, you know, between the sweat and all the ash.

SQ: Did you ever feel like you were in danger from the fire, Betty?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: No. You know, you've got four or five, 600 firefighters and the EMS coming in and out all the time. They gave you a sense of calm and I never was scared. I can't explain exactly why. It just it just felt like the right thing to do and the right place to be.

SQ: Now, I understand your heading back in. What's your plan?

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: I am heading back in with the last round of donations - some much needed air masks, some muffins, milk. The Hutterite colonies from Wetaskiwin and Camrose, the ladies there have been baking fresh bread and pies for these guys. We're caravanning up with a couple of trucks and my car filled with supplies and food stuffs that they're going to need to get them through these next few days.

SQ: Betty, you keep passing the credit off to everybody else. The firefighters we spoke with were just in awe of your own dedication.

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: Well. I believe that in life you should always pay things forward. And throughout my life, through different situations that have happened, there have been other people there to reach out a hand and help me up. So, I’m just paying things forward.

SQ: Betty, it's great to hear from you today. Thank you so much and stay safe and continued success up there.

BETTY CHARBONNEAU: Thank you very much, Stephen. And a big shout out to all of our firefighters and first responders, the EMS, the RCMP. They did a fabulous job out there and I'm so proud to be able to be in service to them.

SQ: That is Renee "Belt Drive Betty" Charbonneau, the woman the firefighters and first responders just knew as Betty. Betty with the sandwiches and coffee. And you can hear Anna Maria’s full conversation with the St. Albert firefighters that Betty helped out, cbc.ca/thecurrent.

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Edmonton truck driver reunites Fort McMurray's abandoned cars with owners

STEPHEN QUINN: Well, from Betty and her motorcycle community helping the people of Fort McMurray to a guy from Edmonton who is trying to do his part, putting in long hours on the road. Here is The Current’s Julian Uzielli’s with his documentary, Driven to Help.

[Country music playing on truck radio]

JULIAN UZIELLI: It's a clear afternoon in rural Alberta and I'm cruising down the open road. There's country music on the radio, and I'm in a big silver truck with "Alberta Strong" stickers on both sides. I'm from Toronto and I've never been in a truck this big. So for me, this all feels just as wonderfully cliché as it sounds.

[Country music]

ELDON HANKINS: Hello?

JULIAN UZIELLI: That's my driver, Eldon Hankins.

ELDON HANKINS: How’s it going?

JULIAN UZIELLI: He’s spent a lot of this drive on the phone, so I've had time to observe the interior of the truck: the hand-painted electric blue dash with silver accents, maroon leather seats, and the Calgary Flames floor mats. On the inside of the rear window, he's taped up a colourful drawing signed by his nephew, Connor.

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah, no problem. Bye bye.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Who was that?

ELDON HANKINS: Just another evacuee. I've literally, like, my phone…

JULIAN UZIELLI: He shows me his phone. He's got dozens and dozens of texts, all from evacuees from Fort McMurray looking for help.

ELDON HANKINS: Probably about 109, 105, something like that.

JULIAN UZIELLI: You see, Eldon owns and runs a small trucking company. This is his company's only truck and he's the only driver. About a week ago, he put the word out on Facebook - volunteering to reunite people with their cars - vehicles that residents had had to abandon on the sides of Highway 63 on their flight from the fire. In bumper to bumper traffic, many ran out of gas and some cars just broke down from the heat.

ELDON HANKINS: It kind of dawned on me. I'm like, well, I have a trailer and a truck. I can haul vehicles, why not?

JULIAN UZIELLI: So, Eldon, who's only 27, put his real work on hold and now is fetching vehicles for free.

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah, I just want to help people out.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Today, Eldon and I have set out on a mission to retrieve a car.

ELDON HANKINS: I know what it's like not to have a vehicle and for so many people I’ve talked to that's all they have left, is their vehicle, and what they have left in the vehicle. So to have the ability to actually help somebody the way I am, it's the least I can do.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Eldon has only been trucking for a little over a year. He's had a lot of jobs, and like a lot of Albertans, his livelihood, until recently, was directly tied to oil prices.

ELDON HANKINS: Everything I did was pretty much all around the oil field and stuff, and that kind of died off, so. [Chuckles]

JULIAN UZIELLI: But right now, Eldon's not worried about oil prices. He just wants to help. We're on our way to pick up the car keys from the evacuee, so Eldon checks in to let the guy know we're coming.

EHL: Hey, Cory, how's it going? I’m just on highway 28…

JULIAN UZIELLI: Not long after that, we pull up to a gas station in Bon Accord, just north of Edmonton, where we meet Cory Avery. He's an equipment operator from Fort Mac and he’s here along with his two grown son. They're both wearing hats that say “YMM strong” in support of their city.

[Conversation din]

CORY AVERY: We got rushed out there on Tuesday night, like everybody else, freaking. No, it was devastation. It was pretty crazy trying to get out of there, everybody trying to get enough gas to get out.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Cory was travelling in a convoy with his wife and two sons when they had to abandon their Pontiac G6.

CORY AVERY: We ran out of gas. We had a shortage of gas. I had enough gas to get 'er out of town, and knew I had enough gas to get an hour outside of town, so it was better leaving it right there than in town, we figured, right?

JULIAN UZIELLI: We're told we'll be able to recognize the car by its missing rear bumper. It fell off after someone rammed them in the confusion of the evacuation.

CODY AVERY: Cars parked all over like a ghost town, it's crazy.

JULIAN UZIELLI: That's Cody, Cory’s son. He was in the driver's seat. He also worked in the oil patch, but before the fire he was laid off.

CODY AVERY: It was like Silent Hill without the sirens. It was kind of quiet, you know what I mean. You can't put the windows down because of the smoke, right?

JULIAN UZIELLI: After getting the keys, Eldon takes a smoke break and then we're back on the road. Along the way, he tells me about some of the other stories he's heard from people looking for their cars.

ELDON HANKINS: One lady, she contacted me, her and her husband had left both their vehicles…

JULIAN UZIELLI: The two of them set off for Edmonton in the man's company vehicle, but once they were in the city...

ELDON HANKINS: ...then he found out that he was being laid off, so now they have to leave that work vehicle with his--

JULIAN UZIELLI: He found out he was getting laid off during the evacuation?

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah.

[Country music plays on the truck stereo]

JULIAN UZIELLI: It's about a five hour drive from Edmonton to Fort McMurray, but we're not going quite that far today because both my boss at the CBC and my mother have made it quite clear that I'm not allowed anywhere near a fire. As we drive up Highway 63, I see how impossible it would be to live in this part of Alberta without a vehicle. The landscape alternates between vast stretches of farmland and boreal forest reaching to the horizon. Out here, your car is your lifeline. About 15 minutes past the town of Wandering River, Eldon puts on a bit more music. He's such a nice guy that, at the time, I was too polite to say I didn't like it that much.

[More country music plays from truck stereo]

ELDON HANKINS: We don't have to go as far now, I'm going to see if I can catch up to that truck.

JULIAN UZIELLI: It also means I don't hear him the first time when he says he's just spotted another tow truck going the opposite direction.

ELDON HANKINS: So, that tow truck, it's towing the truck I'm supposed to pick up.

JULIAN UZIELLI: The one that we passed going south?

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah, that one just going that way? That's the one we're supposed to grab.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Are you sure?

ELDON HANKINS: 100 per cent, because it's missing the bumper and it's a G6. [Laughs]And I saw it yesterday.

[Laughter]

ELDON HANKINS: I'm glad I seen that, because that would've sucked.

JULIAN UZIELLI: So you're going to try and catch up to him?

ELDON HANKINS: Well—

JULIAN UZIELLI: We're pulling a U-turn here, but, I mean, you can only go so fast and he's going the other way.

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah. I'm not going to-- Well, within reason.

JULIAN UZIELLI: The tow truck has got a pretty big head start and by the time we're able to turn around, we can't even see it on the horizon. Eldon tries to reach the driver on the radio.

[Beeping]

ELDON HANKINS: Has anybody from Highway 63 towing, copy? [pause] I'll take that as a no.

JULIAN UZIELLI: But we may get a break. Eldon spots a driver from the same tow company at a rest stop. We pull in.

ELDON HANKINS: I'm just going to go talk to them quickly.

JULIAN UZIELLI: The driver says the company lot is not far and he gives us directions.

DRIVER: Go up here.

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah.

DRIVER: You know where the Breynat turnoff is?

ELDON HANKINS: No.

DRIVER: You'll see a sign that says Breynat to the right.

ELDON HANKINS: Okay.

DRIVER: Don't go right, go left.

ELDON HANKINS: Okay. Yeah, just ‘cause…

JULIAN UZIELLI: We followed those directions down a bumpy dirt road off the main highway. And when we pull up we see a driver wearing coveralls and an Alberta Sheriff. And they’re standing next to a Pontiac.

[Car door opens and closes]

ELDON HANKINS: How’s it going? We've come to grab that car, actually.

JULIAN UZIELLI: Eldon has to prove he has the right to take this vehicle.

DRIVER: You’ve got a letter from the guy that owns it?

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah.

[Paper rustles]

ELDON HANKINS: I seen you driving down the highway I'm like, ah! That's the car I'm supposed to go get.

[Keys rattling]

SHERIFF: Yeah, I’ve just got to make some phone calls. I’ve got to double check.

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah, no, by all means.

JULIAN UZIELLI: This company, Hwy 63 Towing, has been moving cars off the highway all week as well.

DRIVER: In a nutshell, we've been running pretty well 24 hours since Monday.

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah.

JULIAN UZIELLI: We stand around for a few minutes while the police call Cory to check. I see at least 50 cars, and the tow truck driver tells me almost all of them were abandoned during the evacuation. He says he's slept about 10 hours in the past week. While we're there, Eldon sees another car that he's been asked to find, but he doesn't have enough documentation with him to take it today, so he'll have to come back another time.

[Truck engine starts]

JULIAN UZIELLI: After making sure this wasn't an elaborate plot to steal the car, they release it to us.

EU: Hello? How's she goin', buddy? I got your wheels on my trailer now and your car is full of gas too by the way.

JULIAN UZIELLI: According to that Sheriff, people have been going car-to-car with gas cans filling them up for when their owners return.

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah, I’ll talk to you later. Okay, bye bye. I told him it's full of fuel and he's like, what? It wasn't full of fuel! I'm like, no, it's full of fuel. He's just like, whoa! [Laughs] Even just picking up one car, I’m almost as excited as he is. [Laughs]

JULIAN UZIELLI: Back at the gas station where we'd picked up the keys, Eldon unloads the car

[Clanking sounds and engine rumbling]

JULIAN UZIELLI: Then Cory and his sons pull up in their big black pickup.

ELDON HANKINS: There she is.

CORY AVERY: Right on, boss!

CODY AVERY: That is awesome, that is so awesome.

ELDON HANKINS: No problem.

CODY AVERY: Bumperless and all.

[Laughter]

CORY AVERY: Thanks, bro.

ELDON HANKINS: Yeah, no problem.

CORY AVERY: Listen, man, what do you want for this?

ELDON HANKINS: Oh, nothing. It's all good.

CORY AVERY: Are you sure?

ELDON HANKINS: It's okay.

NICK AVERY: Throw him some money, come on. He needs some money.

ELDON HANKINS: I'm not asking for anything.

JULIAN UZIELLI: The family insists he takes some money for gas, so they give him 60 bucks. They want him to know just how much he's helped.

NICK AVERY: A vehicle means a lot to a person.

ELDON HANKINS: Exactly. So many people, that's all they have left. If I can get you your car--

NICK AVERY: Plus, you've got all my personal belongings in the back. I've got over ten Gs worth of stuff in the back.

JULIAN UZIELLI: That's all the stuff you grabbed before you left?

NICK AVERY: Yeah, everything I grabbed before we left.

CORY AVERY: …personal stuff in the car, right?

NICK AVERY: So, it’s got more sentimental value in that car than the car is worth, to be honest. You’ve done us so much of a favour man. So much, so much.

ELDON HANKINS: It's no problem at all, guys. It's the least I can do.

NICK AVERY: No, we appreciate it.

JULIAN UZIELLI: At the end of a roughly six-hour journey, I have one more question. So, worth the trip?

ELDON HANKINS: Yup, every second. Even if it was just one vehicle, every second was worth it.

[Truck rumbles off]

SQ: We have been listening to the documentary Driven to Help. It was produced by The Current’s Julian Uzielli. And you can tell us what you think about anything you hear on the show. On Twitter, were @thecurrentCBC. Send us a message on Facebook or head to our website and send an email, cbc.ca/thecurrent, and click on the Contact link. That's also the place you can hear all of our coverage of the Fort McMurray forest fire. I'm Stephen Quinn in Vancouver. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music: sting]

Back To Top »

Sibling bullying 'has the greatest impact,' says parenting expert

Guest: Dieter Wolke, Barbara Coloroso

SQ: Hello, I'm Stephen Quinn in Vancouver and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

[TV: Scene from The Simpsons]

BART: Hello, queen Lisa.

LISA: [Gasps] Bart! What are you doing in my room?

BART: Lisa, certain differences - rivalries, if you will - have come up between us. At first I thought we can talk it over like civilized people. But instead I just ripped the head off of Mr. Hunny Bunny.

HOMER: Quiet down, Bart!

LISA: Bart, just get out of here.

BART: Hey! It’s a free country. You get out!

LISA: That doesn’t make sense.

BART: I know you are, but what am I?

LISA: Get out! Get OUT!

BART: Okay!

SQ: Oh, the familiar sounds of sibling rivalry between Bart and Lisa Simpson, or is it more? A certain level of bickering is to be expected between brothers and sisters. But a growing body of research is showing that children are being outright bullied by their siblings more often than previously thought. And the repercussions can be serious and long lasting. Psychologists in the United Kingdom have been studying sibling bullying for more than a decade. And their latest and ongoing work is monitoring the effects of sibling bullying into adulthood. Dieter Wolke is a psychology professor at the University of Warwick in Coventry, England. And that's where we have reached him. Hello.

DIETER WOLKE: Hello.

SQ: How do you, first of all, define sibling bullying? What does it look like?

DIETER WOLKE: I think it's very important to distinguish between sibling bullying and sibling rivalry. I mean, sibling rivalry has been around for many years and the best example is Cain and Abel described in the Bible in the Old Testament. So it's very normal to have jealousy and frustration when a new child arrives. Bullying is when aggressive acts are carried out repeatedly between siblings with the intention to hurt and to dominate another person.

SQ: Is it that different, though, from the normal day to day sibling squabbling we see?

DIETER WOLKE: I think the important thing is squabbling is-- So having conflicts, it's very normal, but it's between people who have got the same strengths and to try to come to a solution. And, actually, the negotiation between two can actually help and you learn from it how you negotiate with other peers. The bullying is really where you try to win over another person, actually try to exclude them. And it's very important for parents, very early on, to try to stop it when it steps over line.

SQ: And so it's not always hitting or hurting physically or intimidation, it can also be exclusion?

DIETER WOLKE: Yeah, it can be exclusion or it can be, for example, it often happens between female siblings, sisters, that they, for example, continuously borrow the other person’s clothes, which is very, very annoying for the sister, because she doesn't have access or doesn't know where to find them. So it really angers them. Or it can be very clearly, when other children around, to exclude someone from it, that they're not part of the family, that they don't belong to it, that they can’t fit in and they're not included in activities.

SQ: We hear a lot about bullying at school, in the workplace. Tell me what it is that prompted you, though, to look into the subject of sibling bullying?

DIETER WOLKE: We got really involved in looking at research of bullying more than 20 years ago, looking at peers first, like, at school or the workplace. And then we looked where do children actually spend their time? And in a normal family, at least in the UK, of adolescent children85 per cent of children have got siblings and you spent a lot of time with your siblings. And the most important thing about bullying is that it is when you're caged together. You see, friends, you can choose. But if you're in the classroom, you can’t choose them, but it's the same in the family. Like, for example, in the clip with Bart Simpson, Bart can’t just say, ‘why don’t you move out?’ Because it won't happen. You have to get on often up to 18 years of your life or more living together and having to get on. And that can actually breed resentment.

SQ: In your research, did you discover just how common this is?

DIETER WOLKE: It is actually very common. You find that every week or several times a week is up to 50 per cent of children or siblings are involved in aggression against each other. In fact, the largest amount of violence you will ever experience during your lifetime is between siblings. People then say, well, if it happens so often, is that not normal? And to that I normally answer, by the age of 50 about 50 per cent of people will have experience a fracture or had to bone broken. Of course, you repair the bone. And just because something is relatively frequent doesn't mean that it's good and normal, untreated.

SQ: Tell me, though, how you arrived at that number of 50 per cent? How was this data reported or collected?

DIETER WOLKE: There are a number of studies which have asked the children themselves. And then you have got also, you can ask the parents to report on it. The parents' reports are slightly lower, because the children themselves tell us that about 70 to 80 per cent of all of this bullying takes place away from the parents.

SQ: And 20 to 50 per cent, though, is quite a range.

DIETER WOLKE: It is quite a range. It's between different countries and societies which are called individualistic, which would be Canada, United States, the UK, you find higher rates than in societies which are like, for example, Asian societies or Arab societies which are more collectivistic, where there is a higher status given, for example, to the older child but also higher responsibility for the siblings. And there is, in this hierarchy, more respect for another sibling than in individualistic societies and the rates are slightly lower.

SQ: What is the impact on a child who is bullied by a sibling?

DIETER WOLKE: Having sibling bullying or violence between siblings is related to more distress, behaviour problems, but also mental health problems. So, last year we published in Pediatrics the first longitudinal study of over 8,000 children who have been followed since their pregnancy till they were 18 years of age. What we found is that those who were regularly bullied by their siblings were twice as likely to have developed clinically significant depression and anxiety disorder by 18 years of age.

SQ: And what about beyond the age of18? How long does it stick with someone?

DIETER WOLKE: Well, we have no longitudinal data yet, however when we reported on our findings it was picked up by the press around the world. The BBC ran the story and they had over a thousand letters that were sent in and they published them in the magazine. And these were mainly adults who were writing about how it had affected their life and they still have poor relationship to their brothers or sister or some have made up, but how excruciating it sometimes for them was and how frightened they were at home.

SQ: Did you find that it has anything to do with income or the social status of a family or whether it's a single-parent family?

DIETER WOLKE: To our surprise, there is relatively little impact by demography. You do find a slightly increased rate of sibling bullying the more economically disadvantaged you are. And that makes a lot of sense because you're fighting over fewer resources, but the effects of very small. But the strongest factor that was actually related to how the parent relationship was. So if parents were warm, who were fair, who had very clear rules in the family, the less sibling bullying you found than if you had one which used aggression themselves, for example, hitting their children, then the children were doing it more frequently between themselves as well.

SQ: Given the numbers that you mentioned a moment ago, that 85 per cent of the population has siblings, that bullying occurs in anywhere from 20 to 50 per cent of these households, why is there not more awareness of this?

DIETER WOLKE: It really… It really beats me. I think what happens is that very often we are interested in research and things which are relatively rare, but the things which affect most of the people are so normal like, for example, sleep, friendship relationships, that we put much less emphasis on it and it's much more difficult to get funding for it. But I can't give you a definite answer. It surprised us too.

SQ: This is a problem. I mean, addressing it is obviously a challenge. What are the challenges when it comes to addressing the problem to fixing sibling bullying?

DIETER WOLKE: Some of the things become a family secret. Families very rarely go out and say I've got a terrible problem with my kids not getting on. It's very difficult to know where you turn. It's only when the problems become also into behaviour problems, et cetera, that you see them, for example, in child and adolescent services. And then often most psychologists first address it towards the parents rather than looking also at sibling relationship. There's relatively little awareness. I see the combination of two things. The one, that you don't want to look like a failure, that you're not addressing it, but you're not talking with other families or other people about it of how you could do something about it. The second thing is that you don't think it’s that important. They will sort it out. And third is once you actually have developed a problem, like, for example, a child that's highly anxious or is very worried. Then it's very of not the first thing that's being addressed. I also would like to add that the worst outcomes we found for those children who are bullied at school and bullied at home - just imagine that child. You go to school and you get victimized there and then you go home and the same thing happens again, because these are children who don't have a safe place anywhere.

SQ: Dieter Wolke, appreciate your time very much. Thank you for taking the time with us today.

DIETER WOLKE: Thank you, bye.

SQ: Dieter Wolke is a psychology professor at the University of Warwick in Coventry, England. I'm Stephen Quinn in Vancouver. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. Well, for a parenting perspective on sibling bullying, I'm joined by Barbara Coloroso. She has written several books on parenting, including, The Bully, The Bullied, and the Not so Innocent Bystander. She is in Denver, Colorado. Hello.

BARBARA COLOROSO: Hi, Stephen. Thanks for having me.

SQ: Thank you. What kind of advice do you give to parents when one of their children is bullying another?

BARBARA COLOROSO: Well, the first thing they have to do is recognize, help parents recognize that difference, as Dr. Wolke mentioned, between normal natural necessary conflict and bullying, which is none of those. It's not normal, natural, or necessary. So we have to help parents first discern that difference. Two kids fighting over a TV program is a conflict, even if it escalates to a violent conflict with one hitting the other over the head with the remote control. But a 10-year-old with a five-year-old's arm up the back, and we're not talking a yoga pose, kid’s in serious pain, screaming. And we rush in there and as soon as the older one sees the adult, drops her brother's arm and starts comforting him. And we say, what are you screaming like that for? And the younger one looks at the older one, who can be very intimidating, and says, oh, nothing, mom, nothing. We say, well, quit screaming. We have just retargeted the target. But if we step back a moment when we walk back in there, one of the things we saw was our daughter smiling as she was administering this pain to her brother. Bullying is about getting pleasure from somebody else's pain, from isolating them, verbally tormenting them, or, in this case, physically assaulting them. And it's really important as parents that we recognize two kids fighting over a TV program. They need to learn to handle it themselves. Bullying, you stop. So my first advice is to recognize the difference between the two. Then recognize the ways and means of bullying. The kids can do it verbally. And remember, we speak five ways - our bodies, our face, our eyes, our tone of voice, and what we actually say. So a young brother or sister rolling the eyes at the sibling is giving a message of disdain and contempt for that sibling. And then probably one of the most devastating and least looked at is that relational bullying, that shunning and rumour and gossip and exclusion. Especially, as Dr. Wolke mentioned, with young girls. Parents will say, oh, just go find something else to do. You know, your sister wants a play with a friend. Dismissing how mean and cruel the older one is being. And we also need to, as parents, look at how young it can happen. The next thing we have to do is say to the targeted kid, I hear you. I'm here for you. I believe you. You're not in this alone. Bullies, even in the family, try to isolate the kid and make him not be believed. But you'll often see that smirk on the bully's face and we have to be tuned into that. They're laughing at their sibling, not with them. They're taunting, not teasing.

SQ: And what is the dynamic that is going on between siblings when this is happening?

BARBARA COLOROSO: Well, first, we have to look at-- We have to be taught to be mean. It's not normal behaviour. It may be the norm in some families, but it's not normal. So one of things we have to look at is how do we treat other human beings and how do we treat an abusive relative at a family gathering when they're telling bigoted comments thinly disguised as jokes. Your children are watching. And what they're realizing right there is that they're fully capable of being that character that will stand up and speak out because you are. When mom says, look, Uncle George, he's old and you have to be willing to say to your mother, you know what, mom? I don't want my kids to ever believe that it's okay to treat another human being like that.

SQ: Parents, of course, need to be good examples to their children, but how does the style of parenting contribute to sibling bullying?

BARBARA COLOROSO: I've always referred to the brick wall, jellyfish, and backbone families in all of my work, including in the bully book, because a brick wall family, that very authoritarian family who often will use verbal and physical restraint or shame a child is at high risk for bringing out two different kinds of kids in that same family. And one would be the bully, who realizes I can mimic mom or dad with a younger sibling. And the targeted a kid, who feels like they can't be safe anywhere. We have the other extreme though and that's the jellyfish. And that can be a family where they just let kids tear one another down and apart and just write it off as, oh, kids will be kids, boys and girls just want to be mean. But the backbone parent—If you look at a backbone, it gives you flexibility you don't get from a rigid brick wall. If you were raised in a backbone family, you usually will develop a strong sense of self. When they begin to believe that I matter, they begin to be able to develop strong friendships. And in a healthy family, kids will become friends of their siblings, lifelong. And then they learn how not only to be a good friend, but they will be able to seek out other friendships. And they learn a very important skill in a healthy family and that is how to get in a group and when to get out. And when their parents are modelling that warmth, but also holding them accountable for their behaviour - and I use a form of restorative justice - from about five years old on that where, first of all, you have to own and fix what you did, figure out how you're going to keep it from happening again. And don't tell me you won't hit your brother. Tell me what you're going to do instead. And then finally, how are you going to heal with your brother? I don't want to hear I'm sorry. What I want to hear is what are you going to do to help him have a better day? You know, bopping him over the head radically reduces the chances of him being willing to share the toy. And the younger brother said, well, I know he likes to be pulled in the wagon. So here's a five-year-old pulling a three-year-old in the wagon. And the five-year-old understands that he messed up. But that he also has a way to walk back and heal with the brother he's harmed.

SQ: Why do you think then that it's so often dismissed when a child asks for help because they're being bullied by a sibling?

BARBARA COLOROSO: Well, they are dismissed at home and at school. You know, that's why when I do teacher workshops I like to do a complimentary parent one. And so we have to be at this together and listen to a child, watch their body language. A child that comes in with the head down and says that this is what my brother did or this is what a peer did at school that we not minimize it, don't rationalize it, don't explain it away. And not only do we listen to them, but we say, you know, kid, it's not your fault this happened to you. And there are things that you can do. We need to empower that targeted kid to be able to stand up to a sibling, to stand up to a peer, but also know that there are people in their lives that they can feel safe to tell.

SQ: And what skills does that victim need to learn as he or she grows older?

BARBARA COLOROSO: Well, the targeted kid needs to learn antidotes to bullying, having that strong sense of self, making sure they know how to be a friend. And that's a learned behaviour. Are you good at friendships in your own life? Do you encourage your child? Kids are less likely to be targeted if they are hanging with another person. And when we hear rumours of that our child might be targeted at school, look at that and say, what's his home life like? If you have a child who is accused of bullying at school, don’t be so defensive and listen carefully and then get very observant. There was a young girl who targeted and was that the lead bully and all the not so innocent bystanders went along with her, to target a girl who had a different skin colour in the school. And when her parent was confronted – oh, my daughter wouldn't do that. But when the parent complained to a friend, the friend had the courage to say, I've been meaning to talk to you about how your daughter is in the scout troop and how she's treating her little brother when they're over at our home. Are we willing to then embrace a little child who was targeted and say, that must have been awful? Let's look at some things you can do. Can you get away from that situation if they're going to harm you? If they're verbally-- I think, you know, verbal bullying is the most common, both at home and at school. And if we can give kids some good lines and not “please stop.” You say that to a friend. You don’t say that to somebody who's taunting you. They love it. They eat it up. But what I teach them to say instead is, that was mean. Not “you’re mean,” but that was mean, that was cruel. I don't need to this, I’m out of here. Helping them affirm their stance, their body posture, their breathing. But if they can't get the words out, to roll their shoulders around a down, walk away and say to themselves, I'm a decent caring human being. She is sure getting her needs met in a lousy way.

SQ: Barbara, you were in Ottawa last month speaking with physicians about this, about sibling bullying.

BARBARA COLOROSO: Yes, I was.

SQ: What do you want physicians to know about this?

BARBARA COLOROSO: When you have a child showing up, as Dr. Wolke said, with depression, anxiety, and doing self-harming behaviours, do you clue in to being willing to say to the child, is somebody being mean or cruel to you? And if they get silent, then it's an issue that needs to be explored. I also recommended that in the waiting room that people be tuned in to sibling interactions in the waiting room and how it's handled by the adult. And that we might have to say, you know what? You have to take a serious look at this. And don't be surprised if, at that point, you don't get a little push back with, oh, he wouldn't mean to do that. He's a good kid. High status social bullies in the home or the school are often liked by adults and they do their mean and cruel under the radar of adults. And so tuning physicians into this because they’re the ones who see the end result.

SQ: And do kids finally outgrow this?

BARBARA COLOROSO: Oh, I think what we have to recognize is a hole that we put in kids when they're virtually abused, physically abused. Initial pain may go away of the physical, but the humiliation never goes away. And we now know that that sibling bullying has the greatest impact.

SQ: Barbara Coloroso, so good to hear from you. Thank you for taking the time. You take care. Bye bye.

BARBARA COLOROSO: Yes, take care. Bye bey.

SQ: Barbara Coloroso writes and speaks about parenting. Her books include The Bully, The Bullied, and the Not so Innocent Bystander. She was in Denver, Colorado. Now, we'd like to hear from you. if you've experienced sibling bullying, or if you're a parent trying to deal with it, let us know your story. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Post on this story on The Current's Facebook page. Or email us through our website by clicking on the Contact link at cbc.ca/thecurrent.

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Apple Pay moves Canada towards a cashless society

Guests: Jesse Hirsh, David Murakami Wood

STEPHEN QUINN: Hello, I'm Stephen Quinn in Vancouver and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

We are interested in getting rid of the cash. It's the handling of the security and everything around it is very expensive, so definitely want to push that. Of course, that’s also why we introduced a mobile payment to help this process.

SQ: That is a spokesperson for the Danish drugstore chain Matas, explaining why their stores have a mobile payment system that allows customers to pay for purchases directly from their smartphones. Now, this kind of technology is accelerating Denmark's shift toward a cashless society, and Canada is following suit. This week Apple's mobile payment system Apple Pay announced a new partnership with Canada's five big banks, and coming up we're going to hear about the catch that comes along with a cashless culture. But first, more on how products like Apple Pay work and the future of cash-free commerce. We're joined by Jesse Hirsh. He is a technology commentator and co-founder of the Academy of the Impossible, which is a hacker think tank. He joins us from Toronto, hello.

JESS HIRSH: Hey, Stephen.

SQ: How does a mobile payment system like Apple Pay actually work?

JESSE HIRSH: Well, it's partly based on a wireless protocol called NFC, which stands for near field communication, and you can kind of think of it like Bluetooth, only it has a much shorter range and a greater potential for security. So it allows you to wave your device over a reader, the same reader that we're currently using, the kind of tap and pay technology, but Apple also employs the fingerprint technology in their device. So, use the NFC, the tap on the merchant machine and then you use your thumb to authenticate, to be able to say yes, it’s me, please transfer the funds from my account. It's a combination of biometric and wireless technology that basically transforms your smartphone into a digital wallet.

SQ: And are you putting your thumb against your own phone or are you putting it against some other device?

JESSE HIRSH: It's against your own phone, so the idea is it's the device maybe that you already had in hand while you were waiting in line or while you were checking a message, and it's really leveraging Apple's, perhaps reputation for security, but certainly the way in which the smartphone is becoming a biometric device because whether android or Apple or other devices increasingly, people are choosing to use, whether facial recognition or a thumbprint as a way of unlocking or authorizing the use of the device.

SQ: But is this really any different than having a debit or credit card that has tap to pay on it?

JESSE HIRSH: Technically, no. Although yes when it comes to data collection in the sense that debit or credit card is just a little piece of plastic that sits in your wallet versus that smartphone is really a magnet of all the personal information in your life. I think for many people it's not so much about the technology as it is about the psychology and the behaviour that for many, they love their smartphone. They touch it more often than they do anything else all day. And because there is a sense of trust or a sense of intimacy with the device, perhaps it's more familiar and more in hand than say the debit or credit card which, granted on a technical level, it's the same but you still have to stumble into the wallet, you still have to dig it out, so I suppose in the convenience argument, there are many who believe that the smartphone is an easier and better way to pay.

SQ: So this week we saw Apple Pay partnering with the major banks in Canada. Tell me about the significance of that, how big a deal is that?

JESSE HIRSH: It’s significant in terms of who's going to lead the market, I mean on the one hand, it's the banks kind of giving up on the idea that they would develop this technology on their own. Instead they're almost outsourcing it to Apple, both on a technical level but also on a reputational level. Security and trust is obviously a big component when it comes to choosing to use this kind of mobile technology and Apple has been somewhat successful in both earning the trust of its customers, but also having a track record when it comes to securing their devices. It allows for a greater data collection, a shift in consumer activity, to happen with a trusted partner in the form of Apple. The other interesting side of this is, you know Apple stock has been falling. This is the first quarter which they've reported a decline in iPhone sales, so they're also interested in opening up new avenues of their business; new sources of revenue. By getting into the financial services market, by really trying to be the leader, certainly in the early days when it comes to mobile payments, clearly Apple has a lot of incentive to do so and they may be incentivizing the banks to work with them.

SQ: And that's what Apple has to gain, what do the banks have to gain?

JESSE HIRSH: Well, part of it is relevance. If you think about the bank as traditionally that big building on Main Street, you know, is a bank a bank when you're using your phone? Can the phone companies themselves become banks? The virtualization of the bank really questions why we use the bank at all, and I think if anything, it's a if you can't beat them, join them argument, that they could have allowed same way that Apple basically took over the distribution of the music business and a lot of the entertainment business. Apple, in theory, could start taking over a big chunk of the financial services business. On the one hand, it allows them to be frenemies, to be friends and enemies and learn from each other, but I think it also goes back to consumer confidence and maybe the banks are not necessarily beloved or trusted by the public. And yet, Apple kind of is, certainly with their market. The other side is that Apple's consumers are also the most affluent. People who own Apple iPhones tend to be the ones with the most money, tend to be the ones who spend the most money, so that's another reason why the banks would be wanted to court that particular customer segment.

SQ: So how long then, Jesse, do you think it will be until we start seeing consumers just stop using money altogether?

JESSE HIRSH: They're still using money, they're just using money in a different media.

SQ: Cash money. Cash money.

JESSE HIRSH: But that's the interesting part. What if, to answer your first question, are they going to stop using money altogether? Possibly because maybe they'll spend Aeromiles or air plan or Shoppers Optima, or whatever loyalty marketing you may have, because that certainly is made a lot easier. But, I think cash will always have a role when it comes to privacy. I think people will certainly embrace a digital wallet; I’ll use this technology for purchases that I'm happy to be open about, but there are some things that I'll probably still use cash for and still spend on cash. And there are still lots of businesses that accept cash only because they don't want to pay the transaction fees.

SQ: And they don't want to pay the service charges.

JESSE HIRSH: I don't think it's mutually exclusive. I think we are going to see an adoption of mobile payments, perhaps faster even than people realize, but I don't think that means we're going to give up cash, it just means will be strategic about which medium we use to buy stuff.

SQ: But do you think that cash is going to be the exception rather than the rule, or is it already?

JESSE HIRSH: I think it is already. I think very few people carry a lot of cash with them. I think one of the benefits of cards, and technology in general, is that if you lose them, you don't lose your money. The danger of carrying cash, especially given the fact that these smartphones are eroding our short term memory as it is, is that it is easier to lose it. I think the way in which ATMs can now be anywhere; that you can get cash on demand, you can get cash when you need it, so I think it is already the exception but again, I think there is still a role for different mediums of payment depending upon the merchant depending and upon what you're buying.

SQ: What are the benefits of living in a cashless society?

JESSE HIRSH: I think one of the benefits is security. I mean, ironically, while there is a real threat to hacking these types of platforms and I think it's inevitable that they will be hacked, I think they're both in combined with the zero liability policies that banks tend to offer. It is a lot more secure in terms of protecting your money, of mitigating against fraud and identity theft. I think that's a big feature but another feature is also accountability. I mean, for small business owners, for freelancers consultants, being able to track all your purchases, being able to automate your accounting by having all of it go through these types of systems is another incentive in terms of why you would embrace the surveillance side of it, because you're the one who wants to spy on your finances. I think the other also just comes down to not having stuff in your pocket. If you don't have to carry that wallet around, given that Smartphones probably get a little big in terms of fitting in your pocket, well why not? We've already consolidated the camera, you've already consolidated your agenda, why not add more features to that phone and the digital wallet certainly takes another thing out of your pocket that I think a lot of other people, whether it's seen as a small or a major behavioural shift, will probably embrace.

SQ: Of course bank machines, credit cards, cashless currency, none of it works in the event of a power outage or a major disaster. Do we not always need to have some currency because it's reliable and exchangeable?

JESSE HIRSH: It's funny. I actually think that while the electrical grid may not be available, the internet will. I mean, it was invented to survive a nuclear war and I actually do believe that the internet will survive most power outages and most other catastrophes. Cash right now, because ATMs don't work, most people don't have cash under their mattress, most people don't keep cash. That’s a whole other interesting topic for another day of what is currency and how will people, you know, if technology breaks, how will people trade value? How will people communicate value? I don't think the internet is going to break and I don't think cash is a viable currency when it comes to a crisis. I think knowledge is an interesting currency, and in a crisis, with the internet still functioning, knowledge can facilitate both social capital and real capital in a way that all these digital technologies kind of evoke and can speak to.

SQ: But Jesse, if we're not walking around with loonies and toonies jingling in our pockets and reinforcing our national identity, what are we if we stop printing money altogether, don’t we lose something?

JESSE HIRSH: Oh absolutely. I think sovereignty and currency has always been tied, but I think one of the things we lose on an economic level, is impulse purchases. There are different kinds of impulse purchases and it's not just giving money to a panhandler, which becomes really difficult if you don't have cash on hand, but it's also corner stores, it's also a lot of the local stores which I think may be impacted because they may not be able to afford the transaction fees, or may not be able to afford the technology, especially if it accelerates further. I mean the WalMart-ization of the economy, the whole big box stores, was certainly one impact that was had on Main Street. I think the digital wallet is going to be another impact, it could be positive, could be negative, it’s a kind of wait and see scenario. But to your point, yeah there will be a profound change because money is very much tied to politics, tied to sort of broader cultural behaviour and as we digitize more of it, as it becomes surveilled, we can track what everyone purchases. That will absolutely have an impact on society both positive and negative and it's something we should explore further.

SQ: Jesse Hirch, great to hear from you. Thanks for taking the time.

JESSE HIRSH: Thanks, Stephen.

SQ: Jesse Hirsh is a technology commentator and co-founder of the Academy of the Impossible, that's a hacker think tank. He was in our Toronto studio. Well, leaving the wallet at home in favour of a simple swipe of a Smartphone sounds great but it raises concerns about privacy and security as well. We just heard a little bit about that, let's hear more. David Murakami Wood is Canada Research chair in surveillance studies at Queens University and he joins us from Kingston. Hello.

DAVID MURAKAMI WOOD: Good morning.

SQ: So, what do you think, are we well on our way to a cashless society?

DAVID MURAKAMI WOOD: I think that it’s certainly a very strong capital commercial interest who want to push us that way. And you know, Jesse has outlined some of the more optimistic scenarios for how that economy might emerge.

SQ: What questions does the wider use of systems like Apple Pay raise for you?

DAVID MURAKAMI WOOD: A huge number of questions. Not only, first of all, the fact that we're giving over essentially a large part of what was previously a public and accountable economic system to a private corporation, which in itself raises huge questions, not just about sovereignty but about how accountable this money will now be to us. I mean, there has been a progressive transformation throughout the 20th century towards money becoming something that we understand less and less, and it's less accountable to us when it comes to intellectual decisions, for example. This further strengthens that. That's a major sort of macro-economic argument. On a personal level, some of the things that are more important relate to who doesn't have access and who has less access to the systems. Jesse mentioned corner shop owners, but really, the kind of people that we're actually talking about are people who do not already have bank accounts now, the poorest of the poor, refugees, people who are essentially already others and outsiders in the system. These people are going to be further discriminated against, they are going to be unable to take part in this kind of economy to the same extent. So how, in a cashless society, are people in this kind of position going to be in any way involved? That's a very, very big question. Most of what Jesse says relates to educated, relatively wealthy people. It's a kind of people like us argument. It’s white, wealthy, educated people. We have to think about how this cashless society relates to different kinds of people or those others, with a capital O.

SQ: But how different is it really? I mean, something like Apple Pay when it comes to gathering information about where we're spending money or how we're spending money, how different is that from using a debit card or a credit card right now?

DAVID MURAKAMI WOOD: It's not fundamentally different. As Jesse says, the only difference with Apple Pay is the near field communications technology, which by the way, not everybody is actually as optimistic or as happy about as Jesse intimated. There are plenty of financial analysts, the Motley Fool website, for example, a major analyst of these kinds of things which is, argued that NFC have us on a, quote “little advantage over traditional credit cards”. There's a lot of hype around things like Apple Pay but there is no real indication that it's some kind of revolutionary technology in itself. And yes, as a result, it's a very similar kind of set of concerns around already existing concerns to do with the massive collection of personal data related to personal finances, to credit, debit and so on, and it just, in some ways strengthens the movement towards a society that's based on this kind of assumption; that all information will be collected. That has the same kind of arguments that emerge. A lot of people will say well, that's great. Jesse mentioned security as a major benefit to this and that's true, but it also means that a generalized suspicion starts to take hold where people who, even when say cash remains legal and remains something that we can all use if we choose to, the use of cash in itself then becomes a suspicious activity. Why would you use cash if there's something more convenient and which is secure that's out there? We already see this when purchasing airline tickets, and with good reason right? We don't want people who we do not know who have maybe dubious backgrounds purchasing airline tickets and then they can conduct a terrorist attack as we saw on 9/11. But, what if that suspicion extends into all sorts of everyday purchases? What about drug purchases? What if you go to your pharmacy and you can no longer guarantee that your privacy will be protected through the usual mechanisms? You want to pay for your things in cash but they say no, you have to use Apple Pay, you have to use this system, and it means essentially the kinds of things that you're purchasing then become circulable knowledge; they become knowledge that circulates amongst these institutions, governments, police services and so on; will put pressure to get access to this information which has happened in every other area where personal data is collected. Gradually what you get is a society which runs on this sort of generalized suspicion and ordinary transactions, which in previous situations would have been unremarkable, then become evidence.

SQ: But is it likely that Apple Pay would use that information any differently than the major banks are using it right now or do we feel better about it because the major banks are Canadian and Apple is this huge American company?

DAVID MURAKAMI WOOD: Well, that makes a difference. Canada has very strong privacy laws. We have a very good system of regulation relatively speaking. In international terms, we have an extremely strong federal office of the privacy commission which is very active in making sure that we have our rights, and we have very good non-governmental organizations like Open Media and others who are constantly putting pressure on governments to retain our privacy. Now, the US does not have the same adequate systems of privacy protection. There have been huge arguments recently between the European Union and the US about just how weak the US systems of privacy protection are. Apple is a US company, it's not based in Canada, and as soon as data is transferred outside Canadian borders, even though Canadian law is still supposed to apply to Canadian information, essentially what you get is the kind of what are you going to do about it factor. Stuff in the USA is subject to Homeland Security laws, are subject to all the laws that came in after 9/11 and the US government and other agencies within the US government can get access to all this information. Canadians may not be comfortable with this, they may not think this is right, even the Canadian government and regulators may not think this is right, but in the end the question is what are you going to do about it and the answer is very little.

SQ: David, what do we know about how that information is being used right now?

DAVID MURAKAMI WOOD: In all kinds of ways, essentially. Different kinds of agencies, whether it is insurance companies and right through to the national security agency and state intelligence agencies, work on creating profiles. They work on profiling people as groups and sorting people into categories, but also profiling individuals of interest. This kind of movement towards a cashless society just basically digitizes a lot of information very readily that was previously not available. Transaction information with cash is not really readily available to any of these organizations, but as soon as you get into a cashless situation, you've already digitized that information and made it readily sortable and it can be used to construct and to add to those products listing profiles. And again, some people may be very comfortable with this, they may think it's great, we can identify terrorists and criminals, but of course you can also identify people’s sexuality, you can identify people's politics, you can identify all kinds of things with these profiles and as we're seeing countries like Turkey, like Russia right now, it doesn't take much for a previously democratic government to move into a more authoritarian situation in which those things become useful information by which political enemies can be identified. For example, there have been colleagues of ours in Turkey who have recently been arrested because they signed a peace petition and were charged with supporting terrorism. That kind of information becomes more readily available in a highly digitized, and especially in a cashless society.

SQ: Let's talk security for a moment because every time we go this route, a new technology is introduced and we're always promised that it's going to be so secure that we as consumers have nothing to worry about. Why aren't these promises good enough?

DAVID MURAKAMI WOOD: Well, if you've been looking at the news this morning, which I'm sure you have, you’ll have noticed that the Swift system, which is the major international payment system between banks in the world has been apparently massively hacked. They're not saying exactly how much money has been taken or where it's gone, they're not even identifying which country it has taken place in. And we know last year there was a major hack involving Bangladeshi banks. There's some indication this current hack involves banks in Vietnam, but we shouldn't be complacent in Canada because of these countries elsewhere in the world. This is the major international payment system between banks, it is supposed to be one of the most secure systems that exist in the world for transferring money. And yet this has, as they are admitting now, insiders involved in hacking the system and moving money illegally and taking it out of that official system. Jesse admitted himself, it's not a question of if these systems are going to be hacked, it's a question of when, how often, and how serious this is going to be. At its most serious, a systematic hacking attack on a cashless society could result in the entire economy collapsing. That's not an exaggeration. If you think about what happened in 2008 with the major financial institutions basically bringing the world economy to their knees because of quite regular forms of transactions that they thought were normal and licit, what we're talking about here is the potential for a whole host of different organizations, whether they be national governments with particular agendas, what might be called cyber war agendas, whether we're talking about hacking groups, whether we're talking about criminal organizations, organized crime, any number of organizations here could potentially bring a system that's entirely cashless to its knees and collapse the world economy. Now, that's the limit case, the far end of what could happen, but just to say that that couldn't happen is actually incredibly complacent.

SQ: How much cash you have in your wallet right now, David?

DAVID MURAKAMI WOOD: I have a fair amount and I actually by the way, do not even have a mobile phone. I don't use any of these payment systems, and I do carry a fair amount of cash. You know, my wife is Japanese and I live half my life in Japan. In Japan there is still a very strong cash economy there. Cash represents trust of people, so you pay even rent in cash in many cases, because the transaction between yourself and your landlord is a social transaction. Cash is something that's tangible, it's real, it represents something more than just the payment and so I think there's actually other values to cash which also need to be appreciated here. Not every society is keen to go down the route of the cashless economy as I think, some people, like for example, Denmark seem to be.

SQ: David, it's great to hear from you today, thank you.

DAVID MURAKAMI WOOD: Thank you for the time.

SQ: That's David Murakami Wood, Canada Research chair in surveillance studies at Queen's University. We reached him in Kingston. Now we want to hear from you. What do you think, do you dream of ditching your wallet and living cash free, or do you like the feeling of having some cold hard cash in your pocket? Do you prefer the simplicity of cash, maybe the anonymity of cash? Let us know. Tweet us @thecurrentcbc. Post on the story on our Facebook page or email us through our web site by clicking on the contact us link at cbc.ca/thecurrent. Earlier in the show we heard about the serious nature of sibling bullying, when normal rivalry crosses the line. For many of us, a little or even a lot of bickering between brothers and sisters is [retty much par for the course and so today's last word goes to an ode to sibling squabbling. This is I’m Mad from the animated TV series, Animaniacs. I'm Stephen Quinn in Vancouver. Thank you for listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

[Song: I’m Mad]

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May 13, 2016 full episode transcript

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