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The Current Transcript for April 18, 2016

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Your baby could have difficulty walking. Your baby could have difficulty writing. Your baby could have difficulty learning to read.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: That is just the start of what neurosurgeon Alba Batista tells new mothers of infants affected by the Zika virus. And she expects she's likely to have that conversation as many as 50 times by June in her hospital alone as the numbers of children born with microcephaly in Brazil continue to rise. In an effort to understand the real and ongoing effects of Zika, the CBC's Dr. Brian Goldman traveled to Brazil to meet the families affected by the disease, the doctors trying to help, and those trying to stop it.

SOUNDCLIP

The virus is spreading like huge amount of population, huge spread of the virus very fast.

AMT: In our first and second half hours today we're concentrating on Zika with Brian Goldman on the front lines of a medical and scientific struggle. On a day when Brazil's politics is consumed with impeachment over corruption and scandal, when the people of Ecuador are traumatized by a powerful earthquake, we're looking at a public health crisis in South America that has the potential to linger and affect citizens for years to come. As well, we'll hear from a Canadian researcher trying to develop a more rapid method for diagnosing Zika. He's not only racing against time. He's racing against other researchers. Also today, Creep Catchers Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN 1: You’re waiting for a little girl right now?

MAN 2: You’re talking to Sarah. I’m Sarah.

MAN 1: That was him the whole time. We were the ones talking to you. We just want to ask why.

AMT: A confrontation captured on camera by a private citizen intent on naming and shaming a would-be predator. We're on that story in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current.

[Music: theme]

Back To Top »

Zika's Ground Zero: Brazil hits 4,000 suspected Zika-related cases of birth defects

Guests: Dr. Brian Goldman, Tom Hobman

AMT: Well, after months of concern and speculation, last week brought confirmation: It is indeed the Zika virus that is behind the wave of microcephaly and other birth defects in Latin American babies. The US Centers for Disease Control said that there is now no doubt about the connection. But that knowledge does little to diminish the fear, with one CDC official describing the virus last week as quote, “scarier than we thought.“ It is perhaps scariest right now in Brazil. That is the epicentre of the outbreak. And it is from Brazil that CBC’s Dr. Brian Goldman has just returned. He has been speaking with families and officials as they struggle with more than 4,000 babies with suspected Zika-related cases of birth defects, a number that is only growing. This is Brian Goldman's documentary, Stray Bullets.

[Children playing]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: The sound of sibling rivalry needs no translation. Vitoria, age eight, and Vivian, age four, fight playfully for dibs on a toy motorcycle whose batteries are running down. Their mother, Alessandra de Souza Amorim, lets them sort things out for themselves. The 34-year old mother has enough on her plate: four daughters and now a nearly four-month old son with microcephaly caused by the Zika virus.

[Alessandra speaking Portuguese]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: The prince of the house. Samuel? My late father’s name was Samuel.

ALESSANDRA DE SOUZA AMORIM: It was?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: He’s beautiful.

[woman speaks]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Who does he look like?

ALESSANDRA DE SOUZA AMORIM: [Translated] I don’t know, they say he looks like the girls, I don’t think they look similar. He has the blue eyes, the same as my brother who died.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Sorry to hear that. How old was he?

ALESSANDRA DE SOUZA AMORIM: [Translated] He died one year ago and he was 20 years old. There was a shootout and it hit him, the bullet and it hit him, the bullet, a stray bullet.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Stray bullets also describes the random way the Zika virus is picking off babies in and around Campina Grande.

[Traffic sounds]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: This is a poor city of just over 400,000 in the state of Paraiba – in the northeastern part of Brazil. Up the street, a line up for a soup kitchen stretches to the end of the block.

[Knock on door]

[Man speaks in Portuguese]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Jonathas Oliveira de Lima from the health secretariat knocks on the door of a local resident. He’s with the city’s mosquito combat and control program. It doesn’t take long to find what he’s looking for: Larvae of Aedes aegypti – the mosquito strongly suspected to be the vector of Zika – nesting in a basin filled with standing water. Oliveira de Lima scoops a tiny spoonful of larvicide from a canvas shoulder bag and pours it in the water. In Canada, public health officials urge residents to get rid of mosquito nests by draining standing water. But here, in Campina Grande, drought conditions mean they can only draw water three times a week. That standing water is to wash clothes, cook, and for some – to drink.

[Water lapping]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Back at Alessandra’s house, she gives her baby, Samuel, a bath. The short woman with a round face carefully pours tepid water on his back before drying him and rubbing his skin with baby oil.

[Alessandra speaks softly to Samuel]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: The family of seven lives in a two-bedroom home made of cinderblocks in Pedregal, one of the poorest neighbourhoods in Campina Grande. Alessandra insists on serving me coffee with sugar and crackers. The fridge is empty, no basic sanitation, no huge mosquito infestation, and no screen doors to keep them outside. This is ‘Ground Zero’ for Zika and for babies with microcephaly. Alessandra was three months pregnant last July when she developed the symptoms of Zika.

ALESSANDRA DE SOUZA AMORIM: [Translated] I had a lot of pain in the fingers and the joints. This part here that bends was where it hurt the most. I was bloated and swollen and spent 15 days in bed with diarrhea. I had fever and headaches. My hand went numb, when I washed clothes it swelled up and to this day I do not feel two of my fingers. I don’t feel pain in these two.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: She took Tylenol for her pain, and focused her attention on her main preoccupation, the pregnancy.

ALESSANDRA DE SOUZA AMORIM: [Translated] At five months pregnant, I found out that I was expecting a boy. It was the greatest happiness in the world that I felt. I cried so much in the examination room, even the doctors cried with my happiness.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Alessandra’s joy was short lived. I ask her if at the time she had any idea that Zika was already creating havoc in Campina Grande.

ALESSANDRA DE SOUZA AMORIM: [Translated] No, no. We did not know. I wasn’t worried about it. I went to the hospital and the doctor advised me to take Tylenol and have a lot liquid. When it started to come out in the newspaper that this was happening, I got scared and I told my doctor that I had Zika.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: In August, 2015, Alessandra had a routine ultrasound. Her doctor noticed that part of the baby’s brain was smaller than normal. Several ultrasounds later, the doctor confirmed the fear she’d been living with through all those scans: that Samuel had microcephaly.

ALESSANDRA DE SOUZA AMORIM: [Translated] I was despairing. I felt hopeless and I asked if he would live and what would happen and the doctor said it depends on the case. In some cases the babies live, in others it is stillborn, or dies after a short time, and there are cases that the baby lives for a long time. That was when I was completely hopeless. I felt like the ground had been taken out from under me and there was no floor.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Alessandra says saturation media coverage of Zika and microcephaly made the wait for Samuel to be born agonizing. Still, her greatest fear was not microcephaly, but that he’d stillborn. Then, last December 19, Samuel Amorim Santiago was born by Caesarean section.

ALESSANDRA DE SOUZA AMORIM: [Translated] It was beautiful when I looked into the eyes of my son for the first time. I cannot even describe the happiness I had. Soon after the Caesarean the doctor showed me very quickly, and then took him away to clean him and I slept. Then he went to his dad and when I woke up he was with Samuel and showed me, Look at how beautiful our son is. The happiness was so great that for me, nothing else existed, only the two of them near me. He is the love of my life.

[Samuel cries]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: The love of Alessandra’s life – baby Samuel – is at the hospital for his twice-weekly appointment with physiotherapist Jeime Lara Leal. She rolls Samuel’s body on a huge yellow ball to stimulate his back and neck muscles so he can hold up his head on his own, something he needs to master if he’s going to be able to feed himself or even just sit up. Leal says his head control has improved. That Samuel is eating well and gaining weight and crying lustily are good signs. But, as a doctor, I can’t help but notice he doesn’t recognize familiar objects. Not even mum. Instead, his eyes dart around aimlessly. I’m not sure he can hear.

[Woman speaks softly; Samuel fusses]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: I see the hallmarks of severe brain damage. His doctor says Samuel is doing better than many of the other babies.

ALBA BATISTA: [Translated] The virus has the capacity to destroy the developing nervous tissue, or prevent its development, causing failures in parts of the brain - cerebrum, the cerebral hemispheres, the brainstem, and the cerebellum.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Dr. Alba Batista is a neurosurgeon and director of the Hospital Pedro in Campina Grande where they’re caring for more than 40 babies with microcephaly. Batista, who has been here since 1999, has never seen anything like it before.

[Dr. Batista speaking Portuguese]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Mental retardation, cognitive and motor disorders, paralysis, seizures.

[Dr. Batista speaking Portuguese]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Batista shows me CT scans of babies who lived and autopsy photos of babies so damaged they were stillborn. Microcephaly, which means abnormally small head size, is the most overt evidence that the baby has been affected. But, it’s inside the baby’s skull that I see the incredible destruction to the developing brain. I understand the technical language. I want to know what she tells the mothers.

ALBA BATISTA: [Translated] Your baby could have difficulty walking. Your baby could have difficulty writing. Your baby could have difficulty learning to read. He could not evolve in learning, due to the intellectual difficulty, due to the injury caused by the virus in these areas. Your baby could walk, but maybe with an altered coordination and could more easily fall and get hurt. Your baby could need to take medications to prevent the seizures for the rest of his life.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Wow.

ALBA BATISTA: The walking dead.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: The walking dead.

[Dr. Batista speaking Portuguese]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Difficult is an understatement. Dr. Alba says the hospital is bracing for as many as 50 more babies by June. One mother is expecting twins; her ultrasound shows both are affected.

[Sound of heartbeats through ultrasound]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Dr. Alba’s dire prediction is in my mind as I watch a pregnant woman get a routine ultrasound at the hospital here in Campina Grande. Her baby is okay. Normal pregnancy has enough uncertainty. Fears of microcephaly take that to a whole new level. Here at ground zero, there are so many unanswered questions: Why did the outbreak started here? Why are some babies affected and not others? How does the mother’s health change the odds?

AMILCAR TANURI: What is remarkable here is that the rate of the kids born with the malformations and microcephaly and all obvious brain malformation is very high.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Dr. Amilcar Tanuri is a virologist at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro who has come here to help get answers. His lab in Rio recently sequenced the strain of Zika affecting babies in Campina Grande. He says the virus, that in the past caused nothing more than a flu-like illness when it thrived in Africa, has mutated into one that damages the brains of unborn babies. And the worst may be yet to come.

AMILCAR TANURI: The virus is spreading, like in huge amount of population, a huge spread of the virus very fast. You know, six months ago, the virus was in Recife, now is in Mexico. How come, you know? There must be some animal that migrates with the virus and spreads, you know, because it's very, very, very fast.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: The virologist worries that there may be damage to the baby, in addition to microcephaly, that doctors have yet to discover.

[People chatting]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Here at the hospital in Campina Grande, an entire wing has been turned over to babies with microcephaly. In this alcove, the mothers, including Alessandra, swap stories and tips as they wait for their baby’s appointment.

[Women clapping and singing]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: On this day, I count eight with microcephaly, including Igor Kawatu, born the same month as Alessandra’s son Samuel. Igor’s mom is Livia Monteiro. She lives far from Campina Grande, and makes a five-hour round trip twice a week. Alessandra knew Samuel had microcephaly before he was born; Livia only learned that Igor was affected afterwards.

LIVIA MONTEIRO: [Translated] I was sad, I cried a lot. But then after, three days later, I accepted it. I was very sad to know that some things about my son were going to be compromised, but now I have accepted it as normal. For me, he is a normal child.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: It’s a new kind of normal for Livia who is just 20. Her eldest child is two and a half – and was born well before Zika. Livia tells me she won’t have any more kids because Igor will need special care for the rest of his life. So will Livia.

[Woman speaking Portuguese]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Which is why the hospital has recruited psychologist Dr. Jaqueline Loureiro to provide mothers like Livia and Alessandra with counseling and emotional support.

JAQUELINE LOUREIRO: [Translated] In general, they are women of low socioeconomic status, living on very little money. Most live on Bolsa Familia, a form of government assistance. Most of the women live alone, or with family, but without their partners, their mates.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Those difficult challenges aside, Loureiro says once the mothers get over the initial shock, they say they’re determined to take care of their kids regardless of their needs. But she thinks they’re in denial of the true extent of the problems in their babies. To the mothers, those tiny yet noticeable differences between normal infants and those with microcephaly can be glossed over if not ignored, something that will get a lot harder as the babies get older.

JAQUELINE LOUREIRO: [Translated] For example, at nine months, we expect certain behaviours - that the child can sit up by itself, starts to say a few words. When they get to another developmental phase, in which they are not developing like other children, then we will have to do another evaluation to really understand the grief process that these mothers are going through for this idealized baby. Because until they can fully accept this real baby that they have, we can’t really observe and give an effective response. I think that with a study in a year from now, a year and half, we will be able to understand what impact these babies with microcephaly have on these women.

[Samuel fusses]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Back home after his session with the physiotherapist, Alessandra changes baby Samuel. The psychologist Jaqueline Loureiro wonders how babies like him will be when they’re nine months old. I worry about how they’ll be when they’re five or ten or older – if they live that long. Alessandra is focused on Samuel’s needs now – not the future. She sounds like she’s in it for the long haul.

ALESSANDRA DE SOUZA AMORIM: [Translated] What gave me the most strength were the words of my husband, he gave me a lot of strength. If not for him, I would have entered into depression, because I was crying and researching the disease on the Internet - horrible things that made me scared. But my son is beautiful, isn’t he? What was most comforting was when my husband said, wasn’t it our dream to have a son? Okay. Then let’s receive him the way that God gave him to us and when he said that it touched my heart. God knows that I am a special mother to take care of my son.

[Alessandra sings lullaby]

BRIAN GOLDMAN: A special mother who will need all the strength and faith she can muster to get through the difficult months and years ahead.

[Alessandra continues singing]

AMT: We have been listening to the documentary Stray Bullets, produced by the CBC's Dr. Brian Goldman. Thanks to Kate Steiker-Ginzberg for her work, including translating for Brian while in Brazil. Kate is based in Rio. Our documentary editor is Joan Webber. Thanks too to the following Toronto-based actors: Jeannette Sousa was the voice in translation of Alessandra de Souza Amorim. Lidia Ferreira spoke the translated words of Dr. Alba Batista. Lali Michelsen was the voice in translation of psychologist Jacqueline Loureiro. And thanks to Toronto ESL student Clara do Amaral Motta, who voiced the words of Livia Monteiro in English. As you listen to this let us know what you're thinking. You can comment on what Brian Goldman has been documenting on the Zika virus. Go to our web site cbc.ca/thecurrent, click on the Contact link. You can tweet us. We're @thecurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. If you're just joining us, we've been exploring the growing threat posed by the Zika virus. Last week the U.S. Centres for Disease Control confirmed the link between the virus and birth defects, including microcephaly. And while it continues to spread throughout the Americas, Zika's epicentre remains in Brazil. The CBC's Dr. Brian Goldman, who hosts White Coat, Black Art, travelled to Campina Grande in the northeastern part of Brazil. He has met with the people whose lives have been touched by Zika. If you missed his documentary, Stray Bullets, in our last half hour, then you can find it on our website, or download the podcast, by going to the website, cbc.ca/thecurrent. Right now, Brian Goldman is back with me in our Toronto studio. Hello again.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Hi, Anna Maria.

AMT: I'm just reeling from some of the stuff in that documentary, Brian. And it's well worth hearing, if someone's coming in, just joining us now. But you featured one woman, Alessandra, her baby has microcephaly. She's not the only one you met.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: No, she's not. That alcove that I talked about, I met a dozen or so of the more than forty women who before Zika, it would have been anticipating, happily, the arrival of a new baby. And instead, each of these women has experienced the shock of finding out that their baby has microcephaly, and that's just the surface abnormality. There's many other things going on. And then what follows is a new and grim kind of normal. Raising a child with severe developmental delays, no promise of improvement, modest at best, and great uncertainty regarding the long term outlook.

AMT: Well, it's got to be overwhelming. How much help are these women and their families getting from the city, from the Brazilian government, because most of them are pretty poor, right? We're talking about kids who are going to need some kind of support throughout their lives.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: That's right. And most of them are receiving some form of social assistance, because a lot of them, as you said, are poor. Through the municipal government, the local hospital is providing twice weekly physiotherapy, monitoring, assessment of the children, CT scans, MRIs when and if necessary, and counseling for the mothers. The federal government has promised some financial relief for the mothers, but that money hasn't materialized, and the mothers are facing financial hardship. Now, an interesting thing, the city is building an apartment complex in Campina Grande for the families of children with microcephaly, so that they can move in, so they can be close to the hospital for treatment, and so that the families can support one another.

AMT: Wow, so in essence, they're almost creating a community for those who've been hit by this.

DR. BRIAN GOLDMAN: And that's tacit evidence that they feel they're going to need people to rely on each other, and not necessarily depend on the government down the road. But it's tacit evidence that they see this as a long term problem.

AMT: Well, okay. So when you left Campina Grande, you went to both Rio and Sao Paulo. How are officials approaching this public health crisis?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, keep in mind that while Brazil is dealing with this major outbreak and the medical implications, it's also trying to reassure athletes and visitors that the summer Olympics will be safe.

AMT: Of course, summer Olympics. How palpable are the concerns around Zika, then?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: If they aren't talking about impeachment, which, of course is the story of the day, then they're talking about Zika. You hear it everywhere: taxi drivers, shop owners, on talk radio; and there is saturation. Public service ads on TV, radio, billboards, municipal buses. They're constant reminders. There's a lot of worry, especially among pregnant women, women who are trying to get pregnant, or just thinking about starting or completing their family. And most of the doctors that I spoke to are extremely concerned about Zika.

AMT: So take a step back for a moment, because Brazil is at the epicenter of this outbreak. Remind us, when did it all begin?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, there's a lot of speculation that Zika arrived in Brazil during the FIFA World Cup in 2014, but a study that was published late last month said, in fact, it arrived a year sooner, in 2013. Now, going back even further, Zika was first identified in Uganda in 1947, where it was known to cause a relatively mild illness with fever, chills, joint aches, and pains and a skin rash. The virus causing the outbreak in Brazil is a lot more dangerous, especially to unborn children.

AMT: Yeah, and we've heard that with what you were telling us, but it's become so, it's become more virulent, for some reason.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Exactly, and the speculation is that there's been a change in the virus's genetic makeup that made it able to enter brain cells and to damage them. Researchers sequenced the Brazil strain and found it genetically similar to the one that caused an outbreak in French Polynesia in 2013. Originally, at that time, they didn't think that there were cases of microcephaly, but when they went back and looked, they realized there were, they were just under reported. So they think the virus made the trip from Africa to Micronesia to French Polynesia, before landing in June 2013 in Recife, which is a large city on the Atlantic in northeastern Brazil.

AMT: And now, does anyone know how many people have become infected?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: No, and accurate numbers are hard to come by. If you look week to week the last couple of weeks, the World Health Organization and Pan American Health Organization numbers of confirmed and suspected cases have not changed at all. Like, not one number. And part of the problem, big part of the problem there, is that there's no widespread testing of patients, and also because a lot of people who get infected have no symptoms. So they really don't have a total handle on the problem. So the official number of confirmed and suspected cases in brazil is tiny, but if you look in the fine print of that website by the World Health Organization, WHO, and the Pan American Health Organization, it quotes an estimate by brazil's Ministry of Health between half a million and 1.5 million cases of Zika in brazil since the outbreak began. That's the cumulative number of cases.

AMT: That’s a lot of cases. And the babies, do we know how many infants have been affected?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Authorities in Brazil say 3,836 cases are being investigated, and 1,113 with microcephaly have been confirmed: a number that most experts I talk to believe is an underestimate.

AMT: So let's go back to the summer Olympics, Rio is the host city. To what extent has the outbreak affected Rio so far?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, Rio is managing at the moment, but as Zika continues its way towards Rio, the city is bracing for the full impact over the next two to three months. And when I say impact, there's disease, and then there's the cases of microcephaly. And I visited the leading private maternity hospital in Rio de Janeiro. There I met Dr. Renata Sa, an obstetrician and fetal medicine specialist.

AMT: And how is he preparing? Well Dr. Sa has just opened up a clinic for pregnant women with confirmed or suspected Zika, where they'll do monthly ultrasounds to see which fetuses develop microcephaly and the other abnormalities: calcifications, that sort of thing. I asked him how many cases of babies with microcephaly doctors there are expecting, and frankly, his answer was shocking.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We are expecting about 40,000 case in Brazil. So we are expecting about 2,000 cases in Rio in the next month.

VOICE 2: 2,000 cases of Zika? Or microcephaly?

VOICE 1: Microcephaly. Zika virus, we have a lot of cases, much more than this.

VOICE 2: You're expecting 2,000 cases of microcephaly in Rio?

VOICE 1: In Rio, relating to Zika virus infection.

VOICE 2: That's unbelievable.

VOICE 1: Yes, that’s unbelievable.

AMT: Wow, brain. He's talking about very large numbers. That has to have serious implications for Brazil.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, I asked him exactly that, and take a listen to what he told me.

SOUNDCLIP

It will be a very big social problem for us in in Brazil, and especially in Rio, and especially now with days that we have a very hard economic problem, so it to be a big challenge for the politicians to manage this program.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Dr. Sa said just identifying every baby affected by Zika is a challenge. Remember, this is a new disease, and they're developing the criteria on the fly for diagnosing it. It can take several ultrasounds to identify each case of microcephaly, which is both costly and time consuming, and that's just the diagnosis. He said he doesn't think the system there is prepared to take care of the medical needs, and to take care of them.

AMT: Okay, so if he is so concerned, what about the pregnant women who live there in Rio?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well. Interesting thing, after I spoke with Dr. Sa, he gave me a tour of the new clinic where they're monitoring women with known or suspected Zika. And there I met. Dr. Renata Latini, herself an obstetrician, and one of Dr. Sa's colleagues. And I couldn't help but notice that she was pregnant. She was 28 weeks pregnant with her third child, an unplanned pregnancy. She found out last November, just as Zika was starting to make news in Brazil. And I asked her if she's worried.

SOUNDCLIP

[Speaking Portuguese]

VOICE OF TRANSLATOR: I wasn't very nervous, at first. I was pretty calm until now. But recently, I have been more tense with the situation. Because you see the reports of microcephaly. Even though I haven't had any ultrasound exams or confirmation of microcephaly, but I was at a child's party on Saturday. I'm 34, and I have never seen a baby with microcephaly. And there was a baby there with microcephaly. It seems that Zika was suspected during the pregnancy. Suddenly, it was something so close to us. Something that had been so far away. It leaves you very sensitized. More as a mother, really, because as a doctor, we know that there is this outbreak of microcephaly that needs to be investigated. But as a person, actually, you are at a party, not expecting this. My husband and I were very shocked, because we knew it existed, but I had never seen it before like this. And then, I got very worried. Now, I’m very cautious. With more covered clothing. I was taking care before, but not excessively. And now, I’m very tense.

AMT: I can’t imagine. Okay, so she's pregnant, she works at a hospital where they're bracing for an influx of people with Zika. She's worried about passing Zika to her fetus, is she herself at any risk?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, she, of course, could contract Zika. I guess that window will narrow as the weather gets a little bit cooler in Rio. Unborn children are at greatest risk of serious harm, however, in adults, Zika, which usually causes that flu-like illness: fever, chills, joint aches and pains and a rash, there have been case reports of adults with Zika developing Guillain-Barre Syndrome, which causes severe paralysis ,usually beginning in the legs and eventually involving the entire body.

AMT: And with that, patients can even end up on a ventilator, in extreme cases, can they not?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Indeed, they can. As well, doctors in Recife have seen patients infected with Zika who have developed, and these are adults now, who have developed inflammation of the brain and a pattern of damage that they call acute disseminated encephalomyelitis.

AMT: What is that?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: It's a brand new condition that resembles multiple sclerosis and involves a swelling of the brain and spinal cord. The doctors just presented their findings at the Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Neurologists, currently being held in Vancouver.

AMT: Brian, is it true that some people are calling this this generation's thalidomide?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Yeah, it is. Thalidomide, in fact, when I was in Campina Grande, that’s the word that popped into my mind after I’d been there for a couple of days, when I saw the babies. Helpless victims of a kind of plague visited on them while inside their mother's womb. But with a big difference. With thalidomide, once they figured out it was the drug, they could protect babies 100 per cent by pulling the drug off the market. To stop microcephaly, you have to stop pregnant women from getting Zika. And that's the government's main strategy.

AMT: What other options are there?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: I touched on it earlier, but its prevention. I mentioned all the public services ads, the billboards in Campina Grande. The city that I was in in northeastern Brazil, there are the door-to-door campaigns. And I went on one of them, we heard the sound from one of those in the documentary, to tell people to stop mosquitoes that supposedly carry Zika from breeding. So health inspectors, I saw health inspectors look for larvae in standing water and pour larvicide into standing water to kill the mosquito larvae. The government releases reports to the public of how many houses officials have visited, all intended to reassure the public and the world that it's on top of the situation.

AMT: Well, presumably, they’re trying to reassure Olympic athletes and visitors that it's safe to travel to Rio for the summer games. How are they doing on that score?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: I spoke to Dr. Joao Grangeiro. He's an orthopedic surgeon and the Chief Medical Officer for the Rio 2016 Olympic Games and the Paralympics. Grangeiro says it's unlikely that they'll see much Zika from June through to September, during the Brazilian winter, because at that time, mosquito infestations drop. They don’t breed to the same extent Even so, he said government officials will inspect Olympic facilities regularly from now through the end of the games to identify and get rid of mosquito larvae and other infestations. I asked Grangeiro how much of a problem Zika is likely to be for visitors and athletes by the time the games begin in August.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: To be honest, I don't think the Zika problem will impact the games. I think the Zika, it's a problem. We are facing, our public health authorities are facing the Zika problem as a big issue. Of course, it is a big issue. But a lot of measures which we are doing right now to minimize the impact of this infection, Zika problem, during games time.

VOICE 2: And you're confident that the measures that are being taken to minimize the impact are having an effect?

VOICE 1: For sure, I'm so confident. Yeah, for sure.

AMT: Okay, well, it sounds as if he thinks the Zika problem’s under control. But we did hear the doctor a few minutes ago say he expects another 40,000 cases, 2,000 of them in Rio alone. And infestations of mosquitoes are a problem.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Yeah, they are. Now, in fairness, there are two things going on here. Grangeiro, the Olympic doctor, is right to say that with the coming Brazilian winter and intensive efforts to control the mosquito population, there's reason to believe Rio will see fewer new cases of Zika this July and august, before rising again in late 2016 and 2017 as brazil’s summer begins. Dr. Sa, the obstetrician, is also correct, though, to say that Rio is still seeing new cases of babies with microcephaly born to mothers who were infected not recently, but in the last few months during brazil’s summer. So the government's main strategy is key to eliminating Zika by getting rid of the Aedes aegypti mosquito, that's believed to be the species that carries Zika and infects people. But I should point out that some experts believe that they aren't convinced that the Aedes aegypti mosquito is the main vector, because they have not seen published evidence that mosquitoes, that kind of mosquito captured, have been shown to be infected with Zika. Now, government experts disagree and they're citing evidence that's unpublished, and until it's published, it's hard to evaluate it.

AMT: Wow so that's added to the debate over how exactly it’s spread.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: That's right. And I spoke with Dr. Amilcar Tanuri, who’s a virologist at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro. Dr. Tanuri said there are lots of unknowns with this infection. There may be other kinds of mosquitoes and animals that carry Zika, including ones that could spread the disease to Canada. He's concerned that Zika can be sexually transmitted, and of course, there have been a number of cases of that reported. What concerns him the most is that if one person in a house is infected with Zika, there’s a good chance that everybody else in the house has also been infected. Did they all get bitten by a mosquito, or was there transmission from person-to-person in the house? And I asked Dr. Tanuri why he thinks that's important.

SOUNDCLIP

It means that the virus is very transmissible. But how it's very transmissible, we need to study more. We know that virus is in the semen, we know that the virus is in the urine, we know that the virus is in the saliva. The question is, we need to study more the chain of transmission. In Brazil, it’s difficult to do this kind of study, because we have tons of mosquitoes around. So it’s difficult to separate the risk factors.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: So, as you can hear, they're struggling to identify other possible vectors.

AMT: And presumably, determining exactly how Zika spreads will help predict where and how far it might go.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Exactly. And I asked Dr. Amilcar Tanuri how far north he thinks Zika will travel.

SOUNDCLIP

AMILCAR TANURI: I think in Canada during the summer, I think you guys will see-- I don't know, it’s a question.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: We might see Zika, it’s possible?

AMILCAR TANURI: Yeah, you know, someone carrying the Zika from here to there, and then can start some spreads, you know, I don't know. I think you guys have to follow up this thing, you know?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: So, he's clearly worried, so are doctors in the U.S. And last week, Dr. Anne Shuchat with the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta said babies aren't just at risk of microcephaly, but premature birth and blindness. I didn’t talk about the babies who were stillborn, by the way. She also said that Aedes aegypti mosquito, thought to be the main vector of Zika in Brazil, could be present in as many as 30 states in the U.S., up from 12 states originally estimated. She said the number of cases in Puerto Rico is doubling every week, and could reach into the hundreds of thousands. Last week, she told reporters, "Everything we look at with this virus seems to be a bit scarier than we initially thought."

AMT: Any hopeful developments in there at all, Brian?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, the director of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases said at a White House briefing that the first vaccine candidate against Zika should be available this September.

AMT: Okay. Brian Goldman, thank you for bringing us this story.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: You're welcome.

AMT: Dr. Brian Goldman is an emergency physician and host of CBC Radio One's White Coat, Black Art. He joined me in our Toronto studio. If you missed his documentary that aired in the first half hour today, you can find Stray Bullets, that’s the documentary, the website cbc.ca/thecurrent. You can also find photos and videos there too, which Brian took during his trip to Brazil. And let's keep on this. With the Zika continuing to grow, a vaccine against the virus may be some researchers’ holy grail. But for those trying to contain and fight Zika on the ground right now, what's needed right away is something simpler: a way to quickly and easily diagnose Zika in patients. And that's a problem my next guest is working on. His name is Tom Hobman, he's a professor of cell biology at the University of Alberta. He's a member of the Li Ka Shing Institute of Virology; and the Canada Research Chair in RNA viruses and host interactions. Tom Hobman joins us from Edmonton. Hi.

TOM HOBMAN: Hi, good morning.

AMT: So what's your reaction to all these concerns raised about how far Zika can spread into North America? Are you worried?

TOM HOBMAN: Somewhat. as was mentioned, what are the vectors that are capable of transmitting this virus? I mean the suspect has always been the Aedes aegypti, but certainly from what we know in Africa, there are other mosquito species that can transmit this virus. So the question is, are some of the more northern-habitating mosquitoes, can these also transmit the Zika virus? And that's a big question that has to be answered soon, I think.

AMT: So, how do you want to speed up the diagnosis?

TOM HOBMAN: So right now, what is used is what's called a PCR based test, it's a genetic test. So they're looking for the genetic material of the virus. It’s very accurate. The problem is that it takes time, specialized equipment, and so what happens is you end up getting a big backlog of these tests, and it's relatively expensive too. So, you know, ideally, one wants to move to what's called an immunological-based test, where it can be done within probably an hour or two, at the most. And these tests have been used for related viruses, such as dengue virus, and what are called point of care diagnostics. So that's the idea for Zika virus, is to develop a similar tests that could be used outside of hospital clinics.

AMT: And I am I right, you want to get that so that it's on a handheld device the way--

TOM HOBMAN: [interposing] That's the idea.

AMT: Like a blood glucose tester, used now by diabetics?

TOM HOBMAN: Yeah, that’s kind of the idea. So the people we’re collaborating with at the National Institute of Technology, they will be the ones that will be developing what I call the back end of the test. But as you can imagine, this is a tremendously active area, as well. In fact, the two billion dollars that will probably be released very soon for Zika virus support in the US, right at the top of the list is developing a quicker and cheaper lab test for Zika. So there's a tremendous amount of competition in this area.

AMT: So you're all racing against time, and racing against each other?

TOM HOBMAN: Correct.

AMT: And I mean, ideally, then, you'd be able to, what? Use a device, and find out within how long?

TOM HOBMAN: I mean, I would imagine, and I'm not an expert at this, Anna Maria, but I would imagine it would be within an hour. I mean, taking a drop of blood, or perhaps even saliva. I mean, Zika virus is in different body fluids, as you know. So it might be diagnosable from a drop of saliva, urine, or blood, and one would expect to get a result within an hour or so.

AMT: And I’m just thinking about who would be using this. I mean, this is quite frankly, the urgency of rapid diagnosis is really about knowing early if a woman is pregnant, knowing whether she's got it, right?

TOM HOBMAN: Yeah, I mean, you could imagine at one point you could have a home test for this, not unlike a pregnancy test. I don't see a huge market for this in Canada, at least not in the short term, but these types of tests, I think, would be much more useful in rural areas of in South America and Central America.

AMT: And Zika’s not the only mosquito borne illness in a lot of these countries. Dengue, chikungunya, are around as well.

TOM HOBMAN: Exactly. The same mosquito vector, too.

AMT: So one of the one of the other problems is that these three viruses: chikungunya, dengue, and Zika, they cause very similar acute symptoms. Illnesses, flu like, and it's important to be able to distinguish between those different viruses. Because the long term outcomes can be quite different, as you know. So with Zika, it’s pregnancy related issues as well as things like Guillain-Barre Syndrome, which has also been linked to the disease. But with dengue virus, I mean, it's quite different. The risk with that virus is hemorrhagic shock. And that could be exacerbated by taking certain medications that can cause bleeding, and some of these medications are used to control the fever. So it's really important to be able to distinguish those different diseases, and having a rapid diagnostic test is, I think, key to that.

AMT: Okay, when did you start working on this?

TOM HOBMAN: We got the virus in January, but one of the post-doctoral fellows in my lab had suggested we start working on this in the fall of 2015, so we've been thinking about it for a while. But it just took a while before we got the virus and got moving. So now, we're going to full speed on this. So about three months.

AMT: If you're just joining us now, we are having a conversation with Tom Hobman who is a professor of cell biology at the University of Alberta and he's a Canada research chair in RNA viruses and host interactions. He is trying to find a simpler, quick and easy way to diagnose Zika in patients. I have to be really transparent here, too Tom, I do have more questions for you but we are also having a technical glitch and can't find the person I'm going to be talking about our next issues with, so I want to stay with you because this gives me more time to talk to you. And Dr. Brian Goldman is with us as well. So, Brian, when you were talking about this, one of the things in Brazil of course, is women don't know until well into the pregnancy if the fetus is even affected by Zika. I'm guessing that what Tom is working on would allow a decision to be made and if abortion is accessible to someone if they want to make that decision.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, of course, abortion is not accessible in Brazil and that's an interesting thing you're talking about, but you're quite right. The doctors I spoke to said that that to confirm microcephaly and the other abnormalities in the unborn child that usually doesn't take place until about 23-24 weeks pregnancy, would be considered too late for attempting an abortion. So, the other logical moment to consider might be upon a diagnosis of Zika. Certainly, a rapidly available test that can actually tell you it's Zika and dengue, for instance, or chikungunya, would be very, very helpful, but I can tell you there is no political will in Brazil to permit abortions upon a diagnosis of Zika in a pregnant woman.

AMT: Well, and beyond that issue, also what we've heard is that it's very transmittable so obviously, Tom, what you’re trying to create would be used for men or women. If the thing is transmittable, you'd want to know if you've got Zika and you're at risk of passing it on to a partner, correct?

TOM HOBMAN: Correct. So, one of the uses of this would be, for example, if a male partner has been bitten by a mosquito and wants to know if he positive for Zika virus and if so then they would presumably abstain from procreation for, I guess a well-defined period of time. That’s certainly one application for the test, as well as travellers coming back to Canada or the US. Brian brings up a good point, if a pregnant woman is diagnosed with Zika through one of these rapid tests then what happens? I don't know because of the inaccessibility to abortions. It presents a dilemma.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: We've heard that there are estimates of anywhere between two and 20 percent of women who are pregnant who contract Zika who will have babies with obvious abnormalities and two to 20 percent tells you that there isn't a large enough sample size to begin to get an accurate picture right now, but it's of that order.

TOM HOBMAN: That's a good, I mean that's an interesting number. I worked on the Rubella virus for many, many years too, and I'm sure you know, Brian that that was one of the classic teratogenic viruses and contraction of that virus in the first trimester resulted in much, much higher rates of birth defects, upwards of 80 percent. So, I'll be very curious to see from an academic perspective what the real number is with Zika virus.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: The virus they're most comparing it to in terms of causing serious side effects in unborn children is cytomegalovirus, that's the model but they seem to be attracted to. They think the numbers may be comparable.

TOM HOBMAN: That's probably the best characterized model for transplacental transmission. I mean, Rubella virus is not as much of a concern now is it was back in the Sixties and Seventies, but yes, the CMV is probably the best case to model at this point.

AMT: So Tom, what kind of timeline are you looking at, how quickly can you move? What are the hurdles?

TOM HOBMAN: The two different tests that we're sort of interested in, I just want to point out this is sort of not the major focus of my lab. I'm much more interested in the biology of the virus but, we're trying to do something of pragmatic use here. There are two types of tests that we envision, one is for diagnosis of acute infection. In this case we would be looking for bits of the virus that are present during an active infection, and then we're also interested in developing a test that can be used for people at much later stages. In this case we'd be looking for antibodies producing Zika virus. The test for acute infection would only have a useful window of probably less than two weeks after being infected and then the test would be used on convalescence sera. You could probably detect antibodies for years, and I think one of the interesting questions that's going to come out of this is, is acquiring Zika virus through natural infection, is that protective in a lifelong context? I don't know. Certainly with dengue virus that's not the case. These are two closely related viruses so that's something that we haven't really talked about yet. Does one get lifelong immunity after contracting Zika?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: That's another unanswered question and one of the doctors that I spoke to in Campo Grande said she fears Zika two, three, four and five, etcetera. Another point I want to raise, The Public Health Agency of Canada is advising women who want to get pregnant to wait at least two months after visiting countries where Zika virus is circulating, or could begin circulating, before trying to conceive. That's what underscores the importance of a rapidly available test. You can begin to do studies and find out just how transmissible it is and what that window needs to be, which is very important for women who are trying to start a family.

AMT: And we don't want to be alarmist. We’re spending a lot of time on this today to really help people understand the kind of work that Tom is doing and the kind of things you’ve found, Brian but, if you are a woman who's thinking of getting pregnant and you are of childbearing age and you have an option to go to some of these places or not, what do they do? Who do they ask? Who should they check with?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, they can check with their doctor, they can they can read travel advisories with the Public Health Agency of Canada, but ultimately it's a woman's own choice in a moment when there are more questions than there are answers. If that woman is near the end of her reproductive life, if she's in her late 30s, then I wouldn't go if I were her but, if she's 25 and she can afford to run the risk of getting Zika, and then the aftermath and waiting to recover, then maybe she makes a different decision, but it's an individual decision.

AMT: Okay, and Tom, we'll keep checking with you on how this is going. Thank you for your time today.

TOM HOBMAN: My pleasure.

AMT: Tom Hobman is a professor of cell biology at the University of Alberta and he's a Canada research chair in RNA viruses and host interactions. He joined us from Edmonton and of course, Dr. Brian Goldman, the host of CBC’s Radio One's White Coat, Black Art here with me in our studio.

[Extro: Music]

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'Creep Catcher' vigilantes confront alleged pedophiles, say police not doing enough

Guests: Brent Secondiak, Jim Gamble

ANNA MARIA TRMONTI: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: You were here to meet a little girl, that was me you were talking to the whole time, you understand me? You're here to meet 12-year-old Nicole.

VOICE 2: No.

VOICE 1: Yes you are. I've got all the chats right here in this phone right now.

AMT: Okay, well if you're familiar with the American reality TV series To Catch a Predator, you may be able to tell what's going on in that encounter that you just heard. This one is not happening on network television, but on the streets of Calgary. The man with a camera is part of a group called Creep Catcher Canada. It's a loosely organized group of individuals whose aim is to catch would-be sexual predators in the act of meeting their prey. The so-called creep catchers go online where they try to lure people on the prowl for sex with underage girls. And you heard a little bit of what happens next, a public confrontation posted on social media to publicly shame the men, name them, as well to frighten off others who might consider doing the same. Creep Catcher Canada launched in Calgary last year. It is since opened eight other chapters. It's in Victoria, Nanaimo, Calgary, Edmonton, Medicine Hat, Lloydminster, Saskatoon, Toronto, St John, New Brunswick. It has won praise from some communities, however it has sparked concerns in others, including police who criticize the vigilante approach. And full disclosure here, we did have someone who's a co-founder of Creep Catchers Canada lined up today and we’re not able to reach them today so we can hear more about their justification for doing this and why they think it's so important. But, their efforts have garnered attention not only online with people looking online; they've also caught the attention of law enforcement agencies across the country including law enforcement in Medicine Hat, Alberta, and Inspector Brent Secondiak joins us on the line from Medicine Hat now. Hi, Inspector Secondiak.

BRENT SECONDIAK: Good morning, thanks for having me.

AMT: What do you say to people who are frustrated and they say that police aren't doing enough with online predators out there, and they don't like the pace of police work so they've started to do the same thing that Creep Catchers are doing?

BRENT SECONDIAK: It's very concerning for us. We do work very hard. There are units in every agency in Alberta that work tirelessly to confront these people online. They work with child predators, we do search warrants to try and stem the flow of this in the community, and present as much evidence as we can for their successful prosecution.

AMT: How did your department become aware that there was a Creep Catchers chapter near you?

BRENT SECONDIAK: Approximately two weeks ago we had an incident here, it was a disturbance on the side of the road where it appeared to be a fight, so our members were called to the scene and speaking to the parties involved, it was apparent that they had identified themselves as Creep Catchers. We started to learn more about it; they had set up a male online posing as a female in their late teens on a common dating web site, and then lured this male to a parking lot here in Medicine Hat and at that time right before the meet, they changed the age of the female they were pretending to be to young female the age of 13, I believe it was. The male still showed and as he arrived, they recorded him on video and began to publicly shame him and the intent was to post that later on social media to embarrass the male.

AMT: Was anybody charged in that?

BRENT SECONDIAK: No, there were no charges, there were no offenses. We did interview all parties involved. The male that showed up at the scene was quite upset, his intent was to meet a girl in their late teens. He was of dating age and he wasn't attempting, as he told us, to meet anyone underage. It was a kind of a last minute change that the creep catchers made.

AMT: So, this was a person of roughly the same age of who he thought he was going to meet originally?

BRENT SECONDIAK: That is correct. He was in his 20s, slightly older, but he thought he would meeting someone in their late teens.

AMT: When they record like this, in some cases, can that be used as evidence?

BRENT SECONDIAK: It could potentially be. It could be used as evidence but there are some serious dangers around watching people, be setting them, in fact it's a criminal charge; criminal harassment. We're just very concerned with the dangers for meeting someone you don't know in a public place. Police have reasonable probable grounds when they meet someone, they have to make an arrest. In this case, they just basically profiled a male of generally the same description, and generally the same vehicle at a location, so without confirming who they were meeting, police are very concerned about that.

AMT: Do you believe any of these confrontations have a chance of deterring crime?

BRENT SECONDIAK: I don't believe so. I don't think shaming is a deterrent. I think it might be short term and, in fact, I believe it can have potential unintended compromised police investigations. We do work online throughout Alberta and throughout the country to target these people, to meet them in locations with undercover operations, but we take it one step farther. We will meet them, arrest them, and then we'll do search warrants into a residence, or electronic devices and look for other potential victims. Typically, it's not their first encounter if they are a true predator and there are potentially other victims out there, so we will do search warrants on computers, try and find other victims, and get those victims the support they need. Creep Catchers don't do that, they simply stop short at any meaningful follow up with the victims and any meaningful deterrent with the criminals in my opinion.

AMT: How would that compromise your investigation?

BRENTS ECONDIAK: Well, I believe if someone were targeted by Creep Catchers and put on social media, I think the first thing the alleged offender would do, would probably be to wipe any information they have on their computer, destroy desktops, laptops, delete data on social media sites or phone, so that would be very detrimental to us in our investigation.

AMT: So it could actually be somebody that you're already watching and waiting to get more and more evidence on them and then that is thrown out.

BRENT SECONDIAK: Absolutely, that's a potential and it's a huge concern to us.

AMT: In your opinion, what's the best thing the public can do when it comes to online predators?

BRENT SECONDIAK: I think if they are aware of something going on, they should get a hold of the police. There are websites you can go to and notify the police, www.cybertip.ca is a common one, and just let us know what's going on. I think parents, the number one thing people can do is educate themselves and their children on how to stay safe online. Use personal protection strategies, don't over share information online, make sure your children you know who they're communicating with. That is the best thing the public can do.

AMT: Okay, well Inspector Secondiak, thanks for speaking with me today.

BRENT SECONDIAK: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

AMT: That is police Inspector Brent Secondiak, he joined us from Medicine Hat, Alberta. Well, groups such as Creep Catchers may be the latest to grab the headlines but my next guest has been at the forefront of fighting online pedophile predators in the UK for decades. Jim Gamble was a police officer for 30 years, he was head of counter-terrorism in Northern Ireland, he was also chief executive of their child exploitation and online protection centre. He's now Chief Executive of Ineque Group, a company that specializes in online child protection. Jim Gamble joins us from Belfast, hello.

JIM GAMBLE: Hello.

AMT: Well, what do you think of what the police inspector had to say just now?

JIM GAMBLE: Look, I agree with every word Inspector Brent Secondiak said. I don't support vigilante-ism. I think there are lots of risks when vigilantes get involved, some of which Brent hasn't gone into, but there are lots of risks that they create. Where I differ is that I recognise that vigilantes are a symptom; they are a response to public frustration at the number of pedophiles that are seen to go online, the number who are seen or perceived to get away with what they do, and the lack of police action. I can only say for the UK, we've got 50 to 60 thousand people downloading indecent images to IP addresses across our territory at any given moment in time. You know we have said that there aren't enough police to deal with this tidal wave so there has got to be a way of recognising the frustration that the public have and instead of allowing groups that are self-publicizing or have their own agenda, and with no level of vetting or control within the criminal justice system, instead of allowing them to do this, I think the police need to be more flexible. They need to recruit what I'm calling special digital constables--

AMT: I'm sorry, special digital constables?

JIM GAMBLE: Special digital constables. In the UK, there is a concept where you can volunteer and to be recruited by local police. So, you go through a recruitment system, you're vetted, so the police check that you've got the right character, you're not someone with a criminal record or inappropriate intelligence is held against you and you join the police as a volunteer. That means you're unpaid, but in the tiny streets and villages across the UK, special constables patrol on many nights of the week to reassure the public. What I'm saying is, let's take that model; let's recruit well-meaning, well-intentioned citizens who perhaps have a background in IT, perhaps retired police officers or teachers. Let's allow them to become special constables and rather than them working from their home on a laptop arbitrarily, bring them in to the police station two or three nights a week where they can go online and be a 13-year-old girl, where they can capture the evidence in a way that's going to satisfy the needs of the court, and where they can provide opportunities for early intervention which vigilantes do not do because they cannot identify an IP address. If I can identify your IP address, I can identify who you are, I can identify if you have children in your own family, and I can identify whether your job is one where you're engaging kids. A predator catcher or a creep catcher could take weeks or months and be talking to an individual who's actually abusing kids every night. So, gifted amateurs or well-intentioned amateurs shouldn't really be dabbling in this area, but the police need to recognise the opportunity that this represents. You don't need to be a ten, 20, or even need to be a one, two, or three year police officer to carry out this type of role. I've been head of counter-terrorism, I’ve chaired the virtual global task force, of which the RCMP are a member. We need to capture this. We need to turn it into something positive and we need to incorporate it within a criminal justice response which imparts local volunteers to help local police.

AMT: Okay, and are you using volunteers like this in jurisdictions in Ireland now, in Northern Ireland?

JIM GAMBLE: Well, the jurisdiction covers the UK. I work with schools and police forces across the United Kingdom, and we've got one particular territory, and I don't want to go into detail yet, where actually they have decided to adopt this. They will shortly be recruiting special digital constables who will be trained over a short period of time and then will be coming into police stations as warranted officers. They are volunteers, so there's no cost. In this post-austerity era where we blame everything on cost, this is well motivated people who have the right character with the right training to come into police station and they will go online. The fact of matter is this, Brent strikes me as an extremely professional officer, but there won't be enough. There are not enough Brents out there. I don't care what the situation is in Canada, or what the police say, there will not be an army of police officers online tonight keeping our children safe. Why not? If this was counter-terrorism, we'd be declaring war on the people that were doing it. We need to give the public a chance to reinforce the numbers who are legitimately available to us to help make our children safe in your towns, in your villages, in your cities across the UK. This should be a global initiative.

AMT: Are you at all concerned, though? Some of the people doing this say the reason they're doing it is that they're frustrated at the pace of what the police are doing. So, if they come into a police station and work with the police on this, they may still be frustrated at the pace. Part of the reason they're doing this is because they feel that the police work is too meticulous, it takes too long.

JIM GAMBLE: I don't think that the police work of itself is too meticulous or takes too long. When the police have evidence of a clear and present threat, they respond whether that's in Canada, the UK, the United States, or anywhere else. It's collecting that evidence. What they don't have is the volume. They don't have the resources to deal with the tidal wave of the tens of thousands of predators who are online trying to engage our children. So, we need to turn the tables by reinforcing policing with the right type of person recruited, warranted, supervised and supported. I'm not talking about people going on looking for indecent images. So, before police officers come on and start saying, you know you need to be a police officer for this. This is a different type of undercover work. It's a much more simplistic type, and what these predator catchers, creep catchers, or whatever they call themselves in your jurisdiction have proven is you don't need to be a rocket scientist to do this. So, actually you are shooting fish a barrel, often. I think vigilantes create huge risks, huge risks. They lure a predator who thinks he's going to have sexual contact with a 13-year-old child from his place of residence to wherever they're going to rendezvous. They don't have the capacity to surveil a person from A to B. So, you have a highly sexually motivated individual en route to meet a child. What if he goes to the wrong rendezvous point and sees a 13-year-old girl? I think the tactics that Brent spoke about in that last case where at the last minute they switch the age, certainly in the UK, that case would not stand up. That would be agent provocateur, that basically is incitement, and what if that guy turned up thinking he was meeting someone in their late teens and took his life because of the stigma attached to his identity when a reckless group of individuals posted his image and these details without going through a judicial process. I don't support vigilantes, but for goodness’ sake, we have got to do something different in this environment if we're going to make our children safer, and that means we've got to drop the arrogance, drop the bureaucracy that so often comes in. I was a 30-year police officer, I was a chief police officer for ten years, I understand. I've made all these mistakes myself. It's time for new thinking and we really need to grasp the concept, fix it, make it right, make the recruitment for it right, make sure we get the right people in, but give those people in our community tonight who are frustrated and want to do something positive the opportunity to do it within the criminal justice system.

AMT: Jim Gamble, it's good to hear your ideas, thank you. Jim Gamble, Chief Executive of the Ineque Group, we reached him in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Over to you, what do you think of the idea of the so-called creep catchers and their approach to exposing would be predators? Is there a role to play for this type of vigilant group? Let us know. Send us an e-mail by going to our site cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. We're on facebook, we are also on twitter @thecurrentcbc. That is our program for today, I’m Anna Maria Tremonti.

[Song: Vigilante Man]

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Apr. 18, 2016 Episode Transcript

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