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March 22, 2016 episode transcript.

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

President Obama emerges from Air Force One with Michelle at his side. It's hard to overstate just how important this moment is, not just for the diplomats but for all of Cuba.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: The Obama family's trip to Cuba is making headlines around the world. But of course this is not solely a political visit. The US President is accompanied by an entourage of business leaders on an excursion intended to create a relationship where none has existed for a very long time. It's not alone; the EU and China are reaching out and checking in. This brings us to Canada, with its long standing and some would say almost dormant political and business relationship with Cuba. In a moment we're asking how America's enthusiastic engagement with Cuba will affect Canada's expectations. Also today, a doctor assisting in death.

SOUNDCLIP

I've been at a lot of deaths; I have been a doctor for 40 years. This was the very first time I saw somebody who is totally in control. It was amazing.

AMT: Her patient had to obtain court permission for a doctor assisted death and she had to organize the logistics. As Canada moves closer to legislation to permit physician assisted death, those doctors willing to take part are educating themselves on everything from procedures to drug protocols. We'll hear from a few of those doctors on what they expect and what they're thinking in half an hour. And because his thirteen year old son has Down syndrome, Philippe Montoya has been told his family does not qualify for permanent residency in Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

Picking on people with disabilities is not right and Canada knows it’s not right.

AMT: He may not be the only one sideswiped by the misconceptions and misunderstandings of the abilities of those with Down syndrome. In half an hour, shattering the old myths with a reality check. But we begin in Brussels. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Fatal explosions hit Brussels airport, metro system

Guest: Georg von Harrach

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Police sirens]

VOICE 1: 50 metres from this there was a big explosion. First we thought it was a billboard falling down or something. I remember we ran away.

VOICE 2: It was first a small explosion, maybe a shotgun or something like that. A few seconds later a very big explosion with a lot of smoke and everything was completely destroyed, sprinklers spraying, and so on, and some people lying down.

VOICE 3: You felt the explosion?

VOICE 4: Yeah, I felt it, yeah.

[Sound: Police sirens]

AMT: Witnesses describing the explosions that hit the Brussels airport and Metro system today. As you've been hearing on the news, the attacks have left a number of people dead and the death toll has climbed. They come just after Salah Abdeslam; the main fugitive in the Paris attacks was arrested in Brussels. For more on this I'm joined by Georg von Harrach, a Europe-based journalist in Brussels. Hello.

GEORG VON HARRACH: Hello.

AMT: This would have come at the height of the morning commute, no?

GEORG VON HARRACH: Yeah, absolutely. Both at the airport, where there would have been a lot of flights coming in to Brussels, and of course on the metro system, people commuting in the rush hour. It’s a metro station right in the heart of the European Union quarter, so it's about 700 meters from where I am now so very nearby.

AMT: And what do we know about these blasts then?

GEORG VON HARRACH: Well the picture is patchy and there are a lot of reports that are turning out to not be accurate so have to be careful with what we know for sure at this time. But the suggestion is that it was a suicide bomber at Brussels airport this morning and then a bomb probably on a metro train itself with the other explosion that we heard about. Reports and witnesses are saying that they had seen huge police response of course and security forces asking everyone to remain calm. A message from the Belgian prime minister advising people to stay indoors; be that at school, in offices, or at home.

AMT: What was the time lag between the airport and the metro attack?

GEORG VON HARRACH: So there was about an hour between them so it was around 8:00 local time this morning that I understand that the explosion that took place at the airport and at around 9:00 on the metro system. But yeah, as you say, very busy times of the day.

AMT: Was there more than one explosion at the airport, is that clear?

GEORG VON HARRACH: That's not yet clear, there may have been several explosions certainly but the pictures I've seen of the damage are very extensive and we're getting reports all the time about casualty numbers being potentially high. But not clear yet on exactly how many explosions were involved.

AMT: We know that authorities put the city on lockdown, but what does that mean, what are authorities telling the public?

GEORG VON HARRACH: So the public transport network is now completely closed, that means no metro, no buses, no trams, no trains, and the airport is closed at least until tomorrow. Here in the EU area, all the European Union headquarter buildings have been up to what they call orange alert, which means most of the entrances have been closed. There are increased patrols and obviously as a result, a real sense of nervousness but an attempt for business to carry on as usual inside.

AMT: And of course we do know that this comes days after a massive manhunt resulted in the capture of Salah Abdeslam; who was the main person wanted in the Paris attacks. What do you know about any connection, what's being said?

GEORG VON HARRACH: It's too early to speculate, really. If this is indeed a terrorist attack, one would expect a link with that arrest. But I think there was a feeling with that arrest, that maybe Brussels was coming to terms with security after the Paris attacks last year and evidently that is not the case.

AMT: If there indeed is a connection to the arrest of Salah Abdeslam, just give us some context here of the Brussels connection to those Paris attacks back in November.

GEORG VON HARRACH: Well that's right, there have been a number of connections back to Brussels, not just in the Paris attacks but also other attacks in recent years. So there have been a great number of questions about the ability of the security forces to get to groups of terrorists. Clearly that's still a major problem given these attacks this morning. The latest arrests that we've seen in the last few days have been linked back, as you stated, to the Paris attacks. The feeling really is that the weapons in that attack may have come from Brussels, and that the planning may have taken place in the suburbs of Brussels. So Brussels seems to, at the moment, be a hotbed for this kind of activity and these attacks really repeat that that’s still a problem here in Belgium.

AMT: Okay. Well, Georg, thank you for bringing us up to date.

GEORG VON HARRACH: Thanks very much.

AMT: Georg von Harrach is a Europe-based journalist, we reached him in Brussels. You are listening to The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM, and online on ww.cbc.ca/thecurrent. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti.

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New U.S.-Cuba relations spark competition for Canadian business

Guest: Mark Entwistle, John Kirk, Ricardo Alcolado.

SOUNDCLIP

We're moving ahead with more opportunities for Americans to travel to Cuba and interact with the Cuban people. We're moving ahead with more trade. And just as I continue to call on Congress to lift the trade embargo, I discussed with President Castro the steps we urge Cuba to take to show that it's ready to do more business.

AMT: Well that is US President Barack Obama speaking in Cuba on his historic trip there. He is there to open up Cuba to American diplomacy to American tourism and as you heard him say there, to American business. In fact, there are already a few US companies setting up shop inside Cuba now, including Starwood Hotels, MasterCard, AirBNB, and Netflix. All of which raises the question, what will the influx of Yankee enterprise mean to Canada’s special relationship with Cuba? We have three people standing by who are well versed in the decades old relationship between Canada and Cuba. And well placed to predict how it may look in the future. Mark Entwistle was Canada's ambassador to Cuba from 1993 to 1997. He is a founding partner of Acasta Capital, which is a boutique merchant bank that does a lot of business in Cuba. Ricardo Alcolado Perez is a Canadian lawyer and investment consultant. Originally from Cuba, he specializes in helping foreign investors who want to do business in Cuba. They both join me in our Toronto studio. John Kirk is joining us as well, he teaches in the department of Spanish and Latin American studies at Dalhousie University, which means he's in Halifax. Hello, everyone. Welcome.

MARK ENTWISTLE: Good morning.

RICARDO ALCOLADO PEREZ: Good morning.

JOHN KIRK: Good morning.

AMT: John Kirk let's start with you, are you surprised at the pace at which US-Cuba relations are warming up.

JOHN KIRK: Not really. I think Obama has made it very clear before he was elected that the embargo had to go. The relationship which had been a failure for 50 odd years had to change. So what we’re seeing now is exactly what I think could have been predicted.

AMT: And Ricardo Alcolado Perez, as the US opens up to Cuba, what's at stake for Canadian business interests in the country?

RICARDO ALCOLADO PEREZ: Well I guess they will face more competition for sure but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I mean they have been precluded from doing business in Cuba in the past because of the embargo. If that is lifted, that will open new opportunities for Canadian business for sure.

AMT: Because Canadian businesses were affected at times by the embargo by the US laws?

RICARDO ALCOLADO PEREZ: Yeah I would say even indirectly they were because you have to look at the relationship between Canadian businesses and American businesses. There's a lot of influence back and forth between the two borders. There were a lot of Canadian businesses that could not or didn't dare to go down to Cuba because of the embargo that's for sure.

AMT: Mark Entwistle, what sectors are we talking about here? Where are Canadians most heavily invested in the Cuban economy?

MARK ENTWISTLE: Right now the Canadian footprint is actually quite small, surprisingly small given our 70 years of a relationship there. The principle Canadian players in mining; Sherritt of course, which is a major player. They are the largest single investor in Cuba still today in nickel cobalt. There are hotel management companies, in particular, and of course there's the usual array of traders and vendors who sell all kinds of things as the Cubans require it. But, except for that, that's really pretty much what the profile looks like.

AMT: And you say surprisingly small, have Canadians not been quick enough because Canadians will face more competition now.

MARK ENTWISTLE: They will. And not just from Americans but from Europeans and the Mexicans. One thing that the American opening led by President Obama to Cuba has done is encourage the Cubans in an exercise of strategic diversification to intensify their comprehensive relationship with the European Union. So you have the French, the Italians, the British, and the Germans who are all there. The Mexicans are aggressively moving into Cuba as well and of course the Americans. So it's a very crowded field. I think there's a lot of space for Canadians. There's a historic relationship, there's a warm welcome but we have to of course show up to play.

AMT: John Kirk, a lot of Canadians believe Canada and Cuba have a special relationship. To what extent is that based in fact?

JOHN KIRK: I think that it is a very sound relationship and I think it is based upon fact. In 1962 when the US was pressuring all of its allies to break relations with Cuba, everybody in the Western Hemisphere did with the exception of Mexico and Canada. Then in 1976, Pierre Trudeau as Prime Minister was the first leader of a NATO country at a very difficult time in the Cold War, he was the first NATO leader to go to Cuba, and developed a very strong relationship with Fidel Castro. And as you may remember when Trudeau died, Fidel Castro was one of the honorary pallbearers at the funeral of Pierre Trudeau. There's also very, very close people to people contacts. There are over 20 universities in Canada that have programs in Cuba or research with Cuba. There are over 20 solidarity groups in Canada which also work in Cuba. The Terry Fox Run, people don't realize that outside Canada, the largest Terry Fox Run in the world is and is in Cuba. Over a million people, Cuba’s only got a population of 11 million but over a million people participate every year. So there is a tremendous level of potential to be developed and I think that things were going well until the previous government, Mr. Harper, forgot about Cuba and I think that the relationship did become totally dormant.

AMT: So Ricardo, based on your work as a consultant, what do Canadian investors have to do to raise their stake in Canada?

RICARDO ALCOLADO PEREZ: Well be a little bit more aggressive, for sure. So far, American’s behaviour is a little bit crazy, but it's given them results so Canadians have to be a little bit more aggressive. Take risks and be more open to go down and take risk.

AMT: How difficult is it for foreign investors such as Canada to do business in Cuba?

RICARDO ALCOLADO PEREZ: It’s very difficult for everybody, it’s time consuming, there’s a lot of bureaucracy. Even though they are trying and they are working on their reforms in Cuba to improve the process, it is still time consuming and complicated. But you have to be there otherwise it is going to be too late.

AMT: John Kirk, are there new sectors or industries where you’d like to see Canadian investors focus?

JOHN KIRK: Well I think that in terms of construction infrastructure, in terms of biotechnology, Cuba has got an extraordinary successful business. But I think before that happens there are many things which the Canadian government could do and should do; many things that could be arranged. Baseball games, the Blue Jays, get Rick Mercer to go down to host a show, get Justin Trudeau to visit, to work together with the Cubans in Haiti medical collaboration, the Understanding Canada program was a terrific program which the government cut off which provided money to six or seven Canadian studies programs in Cuba. These things would prepare the way for greater investment but the previous government had no interest. Hopefully, sunny ways and sunny days will change that.

AMT: Mark Entwistle, what do you think?

MARK ENTWISTLE: Well I agree. In a way, the relationship is like an isotope with a half-life that's been ticking down for a while and the relationship needs to be refreshed. The asset’s been put on the shelf for several decades actually. There is more that the government of Canada can certainly do. It's a relationship that is an asset that we have earned. The Cubans are in a way, waiting for Canada to show up and I think we need a strategic engagement. In a way the visit of President Obama has put in stark relief, in fact, to the relative absence of Canada in the Cuban field. And really we're at a turning point, either we go forward and play in the game in Cuba or we seed the Cuba game.

AMT: So what do you think happened in the last couple of years? You seem to be suggesting that we've been dormant.

MARK ENTWISTLE: I think it's been characterized by a kind of complacent neglect, I guess. Nothing untoward in the relationship, we've always maintained it in a very correct way. We have a diplomatic relationship. John has rightly mentioned that there's lengthy history of people to people kind of exchanges, we send a million tourists. There's a great deal of kind of connectivity between Cuba and Canada, that absolutely remains the case. But it was sort of put on the shelf as a relationship that would tick away on its own volition. And clearly the United States does not want to see its relationship be like that anymore and the rest of the world is engaging in Cuba, so we really do need to decide, both in the Canadian business community and in the government of Canada whether or not we want to let this asset evaporate or whether we want to put it to work.

AMT: I want to ask you about the whole human rights record while you were ambassador. Did Cuba's human rights record prevent Canada or Canadian companies at any time from doing business there?

MARK ENTWISTLE: I never had an impression that the human rights issue was a strategic consideration for Canadian companies. I think in general most businesses believe that this was an issue for the Cuban people to work with the Cuban state and they would decide their future so it was never a fundamental factor. There are curious characteristics of Cuba, their labour market policy which was more concern to companies partly because it was a business consideration. But human rights per se were certainly an issue for the government of Canada; I went many times to the Cuban foreign ministry to talk to them about human rights. But it's a nuanced, complex issue in Cuba that easily caricatured so I don't think it was a fundamental business consideration.

AMT: Ricardo Alcolado Perez, how important is that issue to you personally?

RICARDO ALCOLADO PEREZ: Well personally this is a very sensitive topic. We can be talking about this for the whole day, maybe for a few days. I would like to say, I truly believe in the power of commerce and responsible business development to improve the lives of the people. Not only in the economic way, but also in a social and cultural manner. So I truly believe that opening the country up for business and the opportunity for foreign companies to do business in Cuba in a responsible way will help to resolve all the Cuban problems including in the social and political realm.

AMT: You think that the increased activity will force them to be more transparent?

RICARDO ALCOLADO PEREZ: I believe so.

AMT: Okay. So briefly, John Kirk, what do you want to see the Trudeau government do next when it comes to Canada's interests?

JOHN KIRK: A very simple thing would be to have a navy ship to visit. Many NATO countries have had Navy ships drop in to Havana; I think that would make an awful lot of sense. I think medical collaboration in Haiti, given the role of Cuba's medical internationalism program, which is extraordinary. Given the fact that Cuba punches above its weight throughout the developing world, we stand to gain by working with Cuba in very simple ways like this.

AMT: Okay we have to leave it there. Thank you all for having this conversation. I've been speaking with Mark Entwistle, Canada's ambassador to Cuba from 1993 to 1997. Ricardo Alcolado Perez is a Canadian lawyer and investment consultant. John kirk is a professor of Spanish and Latin American Studies at Dalhousie University in Halifax. What do you think? What do warming Cuba-US relations mean to you? Tweet us @thecurrentCBC.

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Assisted dying: Doctors struggle with how to help patients end their lives

Guests: Dr. W, Vanessa Cardy, James Downar

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: The new reality of dying with dignity.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: sombre]

I do not wish to have continued suffering and to die of this illness by choking. I feel that my time has come to go in peace.

AMT: Those are some of the last words written by a woman we are calling Ms. S. She lived in Calgary and she lived with ALS, Lou Gehrig's Disease. Ms. S ended of her life just a few weeks ago on the 29th of February. Her identity is covered by a publication ban because she is believed to be the first Canadian outside Québec to die legally with a doctor's help. She will be the first of many though as the government is due to introduce assisted dying legislation by June. It comes in response to the Supreme Court's decision last year to strike down the ban on physician-assisted death. Right now Canadians can seek a judge's special permission for a physician-assisted death, just as Ms. S did, just as an 81-year-old man from Ontario suffering aggressive lymphoma did last week. His death was announced the day after he received that court order. Today, we're talking about what the advent of physician-assisted death in Canada means for doctors, especially, and to start I'm joined by the physician who helped Ms. S end her life last month. Her name is also covered by a publication ban so we are calling her Dr. W and she is in Vancouver. Hello.

DR. W: Hello.

AMT: Before we get into the bigger issue, what can you tell us about Ms. S?

DR. W: Well, obviously, she's my patient, so there's patient confidentiality involved, but I can say that she contacted me about three months before. And the way she found me was because she was looking into traveling to Europe for her assisted death and she contacted someone in the Netherlands whom I had contacted because I knew that I needed to learn a lot before February 6^th in order to be a good provider of assisted death, so our Netherlands contact put us together.

AMT: How did you help her end her life?

DR. W: Because she couldn't find any other physician close by she agreed to travel to Vancouver to come here. Before this time, I'd worked with a colleague to arrange our documentation, plan our drugs, make sure that we had everything ready for patients who would be requesting this. So I thought we were ready for some things, but then we ran into some problems right at the end because the pharmacists who had agreed to supply us with the drugs that we wanted were sent a notice from their College of Pharmacists to say that they shouldn't be involved in physician-assisted death unless they had independent legal counsel, because they were at risk of criminal prosecution. So pharmacists backed out.

AMT: And what did you do?

DR. W: I can't tell you all the details because other people are involved, but I reassured my patient that I would find the drugs and everything would be fine and I spent hours and hours doing that.

AMT: You make the point that she had to come to you. Was it challenging for you to find a space or a place for her to actually die then?

DR. W: Well, everything had to be organized. It had to be a private place because if it was any facility there would be another whole level of approvals that would be required. And so, again, I can't tell you exactly where it was, but it did take us a bit to figure out an appropriate place.

AMT: And what did it mean to you to help her and her life?

DR. W: It was amazing. You know, ALS is one of those horrible diseases that one feels helpless, whether you're the patient, a loved one, or the physician. There is so little one can do except watch somebody deteriorate and struggle and suffer. And she was so clear on what she wanted. And I've been at lots of death. I mean, I've been a doctor for 40 years, so. And I'm old enough that I've had deaths in my own life as well. And this was the very first time I saw somebody who was totally in control. She made all the decisions and that was really special.

AMT: And when you say that someone totally in control and that you're talking about what is often referred to as a good death.

DR. W: Yes. When we talk about a good death we all agree on certain things, whether it’s the bishop or someone like me, we all agree that it should be comfortable, free of pain, peaceful, free of anxiety, and in a good place - not in a ditch, not in the intensive care unit - and with the people you want to be with. Then it's a matter of the things we don't agree on, which is the time. It should be under the person's own control.

AMT: And you could tell this was a good death for her? You could tell this was the right thing?

DR. W: She smiled just at the end.

AMT: Were you at all conflicted?

DR. W: No. For her, there's no conflict and for patients like her. She was dying and she was dying a horrible death. I do have conflict about some of the other situations - people who are not imminently dying and want to end their life long before they would need to. But I also feel very strongly that it's not up to me. It’s up to the person who's living that life and finding it intolerable.

AMT: Talk to me a little bit more, then, about what it actually involves. You made the point that you had to get very specific drugs. It's not just handing somebody a bunch of pills.

DR. W: Well, we hope to have good choices for people, where we can say, would you like to have a medication that you take yourself without a doctor present? Or would you like to have an injection? And we can offer people this. Unfortunately, right now, we've got a problem in that the best drug, the one that is used in Oregon and Netherlands and so on for the oral medications, that drug isn't available in Canada right now.

AMT: And so the barbiturate of choice just is not available.

DR. W: Correct.

AMT: You made the point that the College of Pharmacists in BC had given a notice. How many professional colleges are involved in this process right now? Who has to weigh in?

DR. W: So, the professional colleges regulate professionals and so I am regulated by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of BC. They have excellent guidelines for assisted death. And the College of Pharmacists in BC at the time had not, but on March 3rd they also developed some good guidelines for pharmacists so that now pharmacists are able to assist physicians here in BC. And we did not use a nurse with Ms. S. We had two positions. In the future, it would be lovely to have a nurse who was excellent intravenous lines. Unfortunately, the BC College of Nurses is not supporting their nurses at all. So that's a big problem. We will not be able to get nurses until that changes.

AMT: You have come forward to talk about this. Why do you do this? Why is it important for you to talk about what you're doing?

DR. W: The most important aspect was that I needed to get things changed so that people did not have to go through what with Ms. S went through. I wanted to make sure that there were physicians in every province by talking about it and by asking physicians to stand up and let Dying with Dignity know that they are available, and then patients can find them so that people do not have to travel across provincial boundaries. And the other issue is to get the colleges to have good guidelines. All across the country we need this because there's a college for each professional group in every province and each of those must have guidelines that support their professionals.

AMT: This is something that has created such controversy, but from talking to you it seems like you believe this is another medical procedure that should be accessible to the ill.

DR. W: That's right. I think one of the most important things about this is not just that people like Ms. S can end their life when they're finished, but that people talk about it. You see, in the Netherlands the discussion about, what they call, euthanasia is very common. So somebody gets a nasty diagnosis, they've got metastatic cancer, they’ll talk about euthanasia. They won't necessarily do it, but what happens when you talk about it and you say, well, if it ever gets bad enough, I know that I can take that route. It gives somebody a sense of peace about facing what they've got left to face, because they know if it ever gets too bad, they’ve got a way out. And that is really something that helps people a lot.

AMT: Thank you for sharing your thoughts on all of this with us.

DR. W: you're welcome.

AMT: Dr. W is one of the first Canadian doctors to publicly speak about helping a patient end their life. Her name is under a publication ban, which is why we're calling her Dr. W. She is in Vancouver. We did request a statement from the College of Registered Nurses of British Columbia and the statement reads, in part, and I'm quoting, “The College appreciates the important role Canadian nurses play in palliative and end of life care. At the same time, the recent Supreme Court of Canada Carters decision did not address the role of nurses in physician-assisted death, unfortunately, leaving it unclear for regulators across Canada how nurses can and should be involved,” end quote. It goes on to say, and I'm quoting again, “The College is preparing for anticipated legislation that will clarify the role nurses may have in physician-assisted dying in the coming months.” My next guests are both palliative care specialists who work on the so-called ‘front lines’ of end-of-life care. While the federal legislation allowing for physician-assisted death is expected in June, Quebec law already allows for such aid, and that's where Dr. Vanessa Cardy's practice is based. She is a family physician specializing in palliative care in Wakefield, Quebec and also in Chisasibi, a Cree community on James Bay in Northern Quebec. We've reached her Chisasibi, along with Dr. James Downar, who’s also joining us. He’s a Critical Care and Palliative Care Staff Physician in the University Health Network in Toronto. He’s also an Assistant Professor at the University of Toronto in Critical Care and Palliative Care. He’s in Montreal. Hello to both of you.

JAMES DOWNAR: Hello.

VANESSA CARDY: Hello.

AMT: I'd like to begin by asking each of you for your thoughts on what you heard my last guest say. Dr. Vanessa Cardy, what was going through your mind as you listened to her?

VANESSA CARDY: Well, it was very powerful to listen to her and to think about what she just went through with her patient. And also what really struck me was what she went through prior to assisting Ms. S to die. I'm working in Quebec and because we have the first legislation in Canada where we have a very clear structure and system written out we don't have to worry about getting all the different team members involved and getting legal approval. And I was just thinking how difficult that was and really how courageous she was to keep persevering and to keep going forward for her patient.

AMT: Dr. James Downar, how does hearing from a doctor who has gone through this process help you?

JAMES DOWNAR: I think that what you've just heard the-- The two things you just heard sort of highlight the real issue here which is that the legal status of physician-assisted dying was actually only a very small part of this. There are so many other things that have to be put into place - professional standards, guidelines, local policies, procedures - in order to ensure that assisted dying can be provided in a patient centred manner. And when you don't have that in place you hear the story that you just heard.

AMT: Vanessa Cardy, have you ever had a patient ask for your help to die?

VANESSA CARDY: I had a patient request it before it became law in Quebec. I had a palliative patient of mine who said that once it was legal they were going to ask me. I mean, I was sort of preparing myself for it and the law came into effect. Interestingly enough, we didn't end up going that route. The patient chose not to, but I think they were greatly supported and relieved by the fact that they knew they had that choice.

AMT: And, James Downer, have you talked about this with any of your patients?

JAMES DOWNAR: We fairly frequently do get requests to die. Most of them are single requests that are not persistent with time and part of our training, a part of any physician's training, but particularly pin palliative care, is dealing with these requests even when it was completely legal. And very often a request to die is actually a sign of, for example, unmet needs, untreated symptoms, et cetera, and you can address their needs in other ways. Now that it is legal our approach doesn't change dramatically in that regard, and as Dr. Cardy is pointing out, the majority of time even a request, even a fairly persistent request, might not actually pan out into an assisted-death. And so our job, as physicians, is to continue to provide other forms of supportive care.

AMT: That's really worth noting. I didn't realize that. So you can have these conversations and people can think they've decided, but they don't have to lock themselves in, in other words, it's an ongoing conversation when they are in palliative care.

JAMES DOWNAR: There's a private clinic in the Netherlands that opened up. It's being funded by a Right to Die Society. It just published its first year results of all of the patients that it saw. So, this is a clinic that is existing for the purpose of providing an assisted death funded by a right to die organization. Of the people who came requesting in assisted death, 75 percent ended up not receiving one.

AMT: Okay. That's interesting. Why do you think that is?

JAMES DOWNAR: Sometimes just exploring and understanding, as Dr. Cardy points out, that the right exists and that it's there when you want it and people will get up to that point and actually feel very comforted to know that it's there, but then not take it.

AMT: Have you always supported medically-assisted death, Dr. Downar?

JAMES DOWNAR: No, I have not. When I came out of medical school I was quite against it. We were taught in medical school that it's unnecessary because if we had ubiquitous, high quality palliative care, it would be sufficient to meet the needs of all patients or almost all patients. And, of course, there were concerns for what this might do to vulnerable populations or how it might erode existing palliative care services in Canada. With time, I began to see more and more cases where I noted that they had suffering that was not treatable, even with the best palliative care we had and types of suffering that could never be addressed by palliative care. We've also had the benefit now of nine other jurisdictions that have legalized assisted dying and seeing what the effect was on vulnerable populations and on palliative care services. And, in fact, these jurisdictions have been world leaders and have grown faster than the world average in terms of growth of their palliative care services. And the, so to speak, vulnerable populations are statistically way less likely than an average member of the population to receive an assisted death. So I think a lot of those fears that people had just don't seem to pan out.

AMT: Vanessa Cardy, you have been public about your support for this. Why is this so important to you? Tell us how you think about all of this.

VANESSA CARDY: Certainly, I have no right to decide how long someone else must suffer. I feel that very strongly and I always have. In terms of when I felt that it was necessary for me to speak out publicly and say that I'd be willing to do this, that was a sort of a separate process because it’s obviously one thing to support it in theory, but when you might actually be the one administering it, it can be a different issue. But what I really felt was important that people realize that this isn't something that we're ashamed of and this isn't something that we're going to do in the back alleys. I mean, there are many comparisons been made to the debate around abortion and the same thing, it should be something that we do well and that we shine a light on it with that we also need to shine a light on the dying process.

AMT: Well, and let's talk about that a little further because Quebec is the only province that has legislation. You make the point that in listening to our previous guest just talking about the logistical obstacles she had she encountered that Quebec is different. But what are the-- How is it working in Quebec now? How is it playing out?

VANESSA CARDY: Well, it’s very interesting. I'm responsible for the implementation of the law for the James Bay territories, so for all of the Cree communities in northern Quebec, so I'm part of this group across the province where the responsible individuals from each region, we have teleconferences and we share information, so I've been seeing the sort of step by step approach to this. And it's been fascinating and I'm not one to automatically sort of believe everything the government hands down to me by any stretch of the imagination, but this is incredibly well done, this law and these protocols. Compared to some of the guidelines that are coming out of the other provinces, Quebec’s law that is now in place is actually probably a bit more restrictive in terms of who they will accept and approve for medically-assisted death. So they're taking it very seriously. They're trying to do it as restricted as possible to start with and then test the waters and see. I'm sure there will be court challenges or people who might feel that it too restrictive. In Quebec, it's only adults 18 and over who are suffering from a terminal illness, who are near the end of life. This is not something that can be requested months in advance, years in advance. There have been requests for it and it has been carried out in various hospitals across the province. Obviously, information is confidential, but apparently it is going well and the procedures have been well laid out, the pharmacies are on board, and everyone is working on it together. Because we are all legally, professionally covered and we are all supported, I think it's being done in a very supportive environment.

AMT: James Downar, the rest of the country is in sort of a legal limbo. What would the logistics be?

JAMES DOWNAR: You would have to find a place to get the medications. So there are a number of pharmacies where it would be available and could be provided. In terms of the location of the individual - would this happen at home? Would this happen in a facility? You would need to make sure that the pharmacist and the other allied health at that facility are able and feel like they're legally protected to do so. So it's not exactly firm bedrock that people would be basing this action on at this point. There's still a lot of stuff that's up in the air. The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario has published interim guidance documents that are quite clear about what to do and what processes and steps to take in terms of oversight and what documentation they should hold on to. So I think that's been very helpful, but we're still being advised to seek out legal assistance for each and every individual case. So it's a clear recognition that this is not a very straightforward scenario.

AMT: Vanessa Cardy, you practice in small communities, including, as you point out, you being responsible for the James Bay territory in northern Quebec. What are the challenges facing doctors in small communities and small remote communities?

VANESSA CARDY: There is an issue because in some of the villages in our community there is no pharmacy. So the Quebec law actually specifies very clearly that the physician who will be carrying out medically-assisted death has to go to the pharmacist, they have to exchange identification, and the medication has to stay in the doctor's hands until the procedure is carried out. Then it has to be brought back to the pharmacy. Now the villages that don't have a pharmacy, we were having the issue of, well, how are we going to do this? Are we going to be flying doctors around to the main hospital pharmacy here in Chisasibi, and this could cost many thousands of dollars flying people around with little boxes of medication, so there is that. But we have found the government has been incredibly willing and open in recognizing that some of the legal and procedural frameworks were designed for, sort of, tertiary care centres, so they've been understanding that in many areas of the province there will be amendments that need to be made and adjustments which are open.

AMT: James Downar, the laws are changing to allow medically-assisted dying but the law is one step. What else should be considered in the wider picture?

JAMES DOWNAR: There are a number of important professional and academic things that need to be set up. We talked about involvement and engagement of other allied health. But in terms of reporting and oversight, it’s very important to have an organization at the provincial level in every province to be reviewing each and every case of physician-assisted dying to make sure that it's being done in accordance with the guidelines, to prepare annual reports so we know how often it's happening, how it's going, a form of quality control, if you will. But more broadly, there also needs to be research and coordination of research done at a national level to understand the effect of legalizing this on end-of-life practices across the country and that would involve reviewing things like death certificates, and other types of research. There's been-- One of the things that the parliamentary committee recommended was the reestablishment of the palliative secretariat, which is kind of like a big research and sort of coordinating body that will establish national standards and priorities for research. I think is vitally important because so much of the attention recently has been put on physician-assisted dying, but this is something that even in Europe where it's legal and widely practiced and accepted it accounts for about two to three percent of all deaths. We need to know what's happening in the other 97, 98 percent of cases. Physician-assisted dying, it's a rights issue. This is not an end-of-life issue, so to speak, because it's neither a problem nor a solution to the other big barriers and problems we face in delivering high quality end-of-life care to the rest of Canada.

AMT: Vanessa Cardy, what role do you think ending life care should play in end-of-life care, then?

VANESSA CARDY: I think the focus has to be on-- The main focus has to be on palliative care and we have to realize that medically-assisted death is now part of our treatment options and that the real focus and the real energy has to be put towards expanding palliative care. We want medically-assisted death to be only an option that is needed if we aren’t able to treat everything and in Quebec you have to prove that you've actually tried to palliate everything before you can even approve medically-assisted death.

AMT: And can you palliate everything?

VANESSA CARDY: Unfortunately, you cannot. I have seen some terrible cases where we might be able to somewhat control pain, we might be able to somewhat control nausea and vomiting and we're getting better and better at that, but there are many things that we can’t palliate. I can't do anything for existential pain. I can't do anything for total pain. I can't take away the grief that a young mother who's dying of cancer feels and sees when she's looking at her children and she's writhing in agony there's nothing I can do for that and, well, there is now I'm glad to say.

AMT: Vanessa Cardy, James Downar, thank you for your time today.

JAMES DOWNAR: Thank you very much, Anna Maria.

VANESSA CARDY: Thank you so much.

AMT: Dr. James Downar is a Critical Care and Palliative Care Staff Physician in the University Health Network in Toronto and Assistant Professor at the University of Toronto in Critical Care and Palliative Care. Dr. Vanessa Cardy is a family physician who practises palliative care in Wakefield, Quebec, and in Chisasibi, a Cree community in James Bay in Northern Quebec. What do you think? Let us know what you have been thinking as you listened to that conversation. You can tweet us. We’re @thecurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook or go to our website, cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on Contact. And if you joined us partway through go to the website download the podcast cbc.ca/thecurrent. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Down syndrome discrimination based on misinformation, prejudice

Guests: Will Brewer, Allison Brewer, Kirk Crowther

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current. Three years ago Environmental Studies professor Felipe Montoya set out to make a big move. He had just landed a job at York University in Toronto and all that was left to do was relocate his family from Costa Rica to Canada and apply for permanent residency. There was only one issue.

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FELIPE MONTOYA: When I was hired, the relocation officer of York University mentioned that I might have problems with residency papers because my son had Down syndrome but when she said that, I just thought that this was some type of protocol phrase that she had to say based on some ancient law that might have been on the books and thought it was totally irrelevant.

AMT: But it was not irrelevant, at least not to Canadian Immigration officials. They rejected Professor Montoya's residency application arguing his 13-year-old son Nico would be a burden to taxpayers because of his Down syndrome. What followed was a long drawn out fight in hopes of reversing the decision.

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FELIPE MONTOYA: None of us had to do any extra examinations but he was examined, we had to do an exam of his thyroid, we have to do extra x-rays, we had to do cognitive and developmental psychological assessments and so on.

AMT: Mr. Montoya believes his son was being discriminated against because of his genetic identity. He points to his 17-year-old daughter as proof.

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FELIPE MONTOYA: She has used state services, she's gone to a public school for the past three years just as my son has, and my daughter has not been deemed inadmissible for using school services, but my son, for being a Down syndrome person, his use of public services is deemed an excessive demand on the state.

AMT: Well, thanks to our colleagues at CBC’s Metro Morning for that interview. The Montoya family is planning to return to Costa Rica at the end of June now. Will Brewer, a 30-year old living with Down syndrome is a member of Voices at the Table for Advocacy. It's a working group at the Canadian Down Syndrome Society. His mother Allison Brewer is chair of the Halifax, Nova Scotia Down Syndrome Society. They are both joining us from Halifax and Kirk Crowther is the National Executive Director of the Canadian Down Syndrome Society he's in Ottawa, hello to you all.

ALL VOICES: Good Morning.

AMT: Kirk Crowther, let's start with you. What was your reaction when you heard the Montoya’s family's application for permanent residency was rejected because their son has Down syndrome?

KIRK CROWTHER: Well absolutely, I'm very disappointed. Certainly it's not a story that we've not heard many, many, many times before. We think this is happening to hundreds of families across Canada that have immigrated or trying to immigrate to Canada. Certainly, we know a lot of families that do try to get through the process give up after a certain point. It does take, from what we're hearing, three to five years for a family to immigrate to Canada if they do have a child with Down syndrome to go to the entire process. So again, very disappointed especially a family that was established in Calgary and Canada, has been here three years. It’s really unfair to Nico when his entire family.

AMT: Allison Brewer is the parent of a person with Down syndrome. What do you think of the situation involving the Montoya family?

ALLISON BREWER: I think it's absurd. I can pretty much say to just put everyone out there, whatever you think Down syndrome is, you're probably not right. People with Down syndrome lived, you know fairly secluded lives for you know, for generations and it's really just been this last generation that's been visible and out there and doing things in the community and in acting as role models.

AMT: And again, the reason being that the Montoya family's son would be a burden to taxpayers. Is your son a burden to society?

ALLISON BREWER: Absolutely not and I would say that that whatever extra might be spent on someone with Down syndrome, certainly the community is going to get it back in the hours and hours of volunteer work that people with Down syndrome contribute. It's interesting because I read there was an immigration consultant, I was reading over the last couple of days who said anybody who knows the care required for people with Down syndrome knows they’ve got a real uphill battle ahead of them. And I thought anybody--that's one of the most absurd statements I've ever heard. There might be a certain amount of extra care but it certainly isn't an uphill battle by any means.

AMT: Will Brewer, what should people know about what it's like to live with Down syndrome?

WILL BREWER: I would probably say listen to the person who wants to live where they want to live.

AMT: Tell us what it's like for you. You went to school?

WILL BREWER: Yes.

AMT: And are you working now?

WILL BREWER: Mostly volunteering but I hopefully soon, I might be even town crier for Halifax.

AMT: And what was it like being in school?

WILL BREWER: Well, when I was young, I can probably get my stories wrong, but maybe Allison can help here as well. When I was young, I was segregated within high school, and I wanted to be with my friends, right, but somehow we were always walking within the resource room where I was at. For example, we would walk within our own group to the gym or to the cafeteria and then others were think, what's going on here?

AMT: Did you-- Allison go ahead.

ALLISON BREWER: I was going to say it's interesting because that was my experience a generation earlier when I was in school and people with any sort of disability were segregated and kind of marched through the hall as a group and we didn't talk to them, or play with them were anything. And there was nothing in my education, nothing in all my years of schooling that ever prepared me for the night that Will was born. When I was presented with the news that I had a baby with Down syndrome, I really didn't know what to think. I had nothing to look at in my upbringing, or in my schooling, or any of the communities that I had lived in to help me that night. To me, the night was flooded, my mind was flooded that night with the images of those people who were who were marched through the halls and

it doesn't have to be that way.

AMT: Did you know that Will had Down syndrome when you were pregnant?

ALLISON BREWER: No, I didn't.

AMT: And was that a choice? Are you glad you did not?

ALLISON BREWER: I am really glad I didn't because 30 years ago, given what I knew about Down syndrome then, I really don't know what I would have done if I had that information ahead of time.

AMT: Well, and after he was born Allison, obviously you make the point about the abilities of someone with Down syndrome. Where did you reach out to people to make sure that you would raise your son in a different way?

ALLISON BREWER: I think Will was probably born out of one of the best times in history I think because it was a time when institutions were being closed and government was pouring all kinds of money and community living and there were lots of resources in Fredericton. There was early intervention and the community rallied round. We had visits in the hospital from people who had had children with Down syndrome and there was this tremendous community of support and then, we just we just went into the community with Will and started integrating him pretty much from day one.

AMT: Will, would you change anything about yourself?

WILL BREWER: No, but also I would like to add that while I was with early intervention, they actually had me speak to them as well. I wanted to mention that as well.

ALLISON BREWER: That was one of your first speaking engagements.

AMT: So that you speak to people to help them understand more about Down syndrome, Will?

WIL BREWER: Yes. Just recently, I have a friend who lives out of Halifax, Carrie Smith, and her daughter asked me to come into her class to talk but Down syndrome. And I am really happy that they asked me to come to her school as everyone really enjoyed having me there in her classroom.

AMT: Kirk Crowther, is Will unique in how someone with Down syndrome lives his or her life?

KIRK CROWTHER: I think Will Brewer is kind of creating his own path and certainly is a role model for other adults with Down syndrome to follow. Certainly, adults with Down syndrome now are far more involved in their communities starting at an early age. As Will had said, the early intervention phase, all the way up to being fully included in their schools, certainly the largest life segment for anyone in Canada is the working stage, the after graduating high school, or after graduating university or college. So, this is in support of employment initiatives that are helping communities across Canada are very, very important and people like Will are just fitting into their community there. They are just becoming a natural part of the success in the community of certainly the community itself. When good things are happening, the community is diverse, and they're just part of that diversity.

AMT: What are the most common misconceptions surrounding Down syndrome, Kirk?

KIRK CROWTHER: I think the biggest one certainly is the education that people with Down syndrome will not learn things, they can't try or do new things, they can't be independent, and I think people like Will and other self-advocates are changing that entirely just by what they do.

AMT: Will, tell us a little bit more about your life. Tell me a little bit, do you have a girlfriend?

WILL BREWER: I had recent girlfriends, but right now I'm single, still.

AMT: You're in the market?

WILL BREWER: I mean the market, yes, more people to see.

AMT: But you went to school and you have friends and you don't spend all your time alone?

WILL BREWER: No, not anymore. Sometimes I am on my own, sometimes when I'm not surrounded with my friends. But right now there's a very diverse community here in Halifax where I met with-- I was first introduced to the Down Syndrome Society in 2008 and I got really connected with them as well and just a few years ago in 2003, I actually graduated in Nunavut at the time with two testings of the, what was it called, Mom?

ALLISON BREWER: You passed the Alberta standardized testing.

WILL BREWER: Yes.

AMT: You were going to school in the North, you were living in the north for a long time, were you?

WILL BREWER: I was. When I first moved there, I gave this stone to a friend, his name was Brian Doherty, he was my homeroom teacher and I’m still friends to him to this day.

AMT: Have you ever felt discriminated against because of your Down syndrome, Will?

WILL BREWER: No.

AMT: Do you think people understand what Down syndrome really means? Really is?

WILL BREWER: Yes.

AMT: Allison, how do you handle situations where you see people with Down syndrome being treated differently?

ALLISON BREWER: It's always difficult but I try as gently as I can to educate people and what we often have happen with us when Will and I are together, people will talk to me or ask me questions, you know, how old is he? And I would say, ask him. It's always difficult because you don't want to insult people but at same time, there's always an opportunity to gently educate people about things like Down syndrome.

AMT: Will, when people have questions what do they ask you about having Down syndrome?

WILL BREWER: Nothing really because they just really include me in conversation mostly. A few years ago though, I have two friends back in Fredericton, Mark Gad, he sometimes-- people get confused that when I say Hi Mark, how are you, for example, I would say I'm sorry even though he's a friend of mine, I'm not him. My name's Will.

AMT: So, sometimes there's some confusion.

WILL BREWER: Exactly, yeah.

ALLISON BREWER: You get the idea that you know, all people with Down syndrome look alike.

WILL BREWER: Hmm-hmm.

ALLISON BREWER: Yeah, so I know sometimes what Will will lose his individuality in that and he doesn't like that.

AMT: What about when Will was first going to school, Allison, did you have to fight to get him in school?

ALLISON BREWER: Pretty much from the get go. He was in kindergarten and there was some suggestion that he spent an extra year in kindergarten and that didn't seem like that horrible idea except that all of his friends, all of these peers, would have moved ahead without him and I really felt at the time that that it was important for him to do things that were age appropriate. I was always trying to trying to push with him and keep in mind, keep in my own mind, going along. Walking, for instance. Most kids walk when they're around one and that was our goal was Will is going to walk before he was one even though he was two before he walked. But still, you just kind of keep those goals in mind and never stop pushing.

AMT: Kirk Crowther, how have medical attitudes in the health care system changed in the last three years since the time Will was born?

KIRK CROWTHER: Certainly there has been a shift, I think a positive shift as doctors have received more training and have been exposed certainly to more people in their own community that have Down syndrome. I think the biggest changes doctors now are getting more fair and balanced information when there is a determination of Down syndrome to parents so parents can make an informed choice right from the get go for their son or daughter. So, often in the past, a lot of things that were said were not based on truth or facts and we still hear stories from parents that go in and see their doctor or their genetic counselor when parents are having children and you know, they are told there is a diagnosis. In our mind there is never kind of a positive diagnosis. Even just the words they use are not particularly adequate in describing Down syndrome. So, the stories we hear that moms or families are going in and the doctors are saying, well you know there are some markers for Down syndrome, if you would like to terminate your pregnancy, you know we have an opening on Tuesday and that's very disappointing that we're still hearing that from Canadian parents that they're not getting that information.

AMT: What percentage of pregnancies, the fetus Down syndrome are terminated, do you know?

KIRK CROWTHER: Depending on the statistics you look at, they are roughly anywhere from 75 to about 90 percent of all parents are terminating their pregnancy when you know a determination has been made.

ALLISON BREWER: We have, what I refer to as the missing cohort, and it's interesting, we had a World Down syndrome day event here in Halifax on Saturday and you could really see how things played out. There were lots of people with Down syndrome who were 25 and up and lots of little ones, but there's a there's a whole age range missing from early teens maybe 12-13 up until 20-22 and that's the missing cohort. That was the period of time when it seemed like people must have been getting the worst possible information about Down syndrome.

AMT: Interesting that you can actually see it in the ages in a group of people in the room. Allison, talk to a little just a little bit more. As Will has grown up, how is the care you provide changed?

ALLISON BREWER: Will proved to be independent from quite an early age, so there has not been a lot of hands-on care with him. Now he's completely independent. I can go away for days at a time and he just does whatever he needs to do in the house, and feeds himself, and gets himself out of the house during the day and I wouldn't say there's any additional care that that I have to give Will beyond just you know, picking up after him and doing all those kinds of things--

AMT: [laughs] They may have nothing to do with Down syndrome.

ALLISON BREWER: [laughs] That might have a little bit to do with the male gene. I know Will is somewhat unique in that kind of independence but, there is no reason why the majority of people with Down syndrome can't be living on their own in maybe some kind of assisted living situation. But, care for someone with Down syndrome is certainly not an uphill battle. Anything but.

AMT: You're talking about assistance in life as opposed to specific medical care, right?

ALLIOSN BREWER: Oh yes. Down syndrome is not an illness. It may come with certain medical complications. It's interesting, today March 22^nd, we're celebrating 30 years since Will had open heart surgery at the age of six months old and there was that complication when he was born but after we got that out of the way, he's been in great health. There's been nothing additional to that we've had to deal with.

AMT: Kirk, how important is integration for special needs kids and kids without special needs to really integrate kids in schools?

KIRK CROWTHER: I think that full inclusion piece, and I'm glad we're talking about it, is critical. We know when kids are included at a young age, included in elementary school, they thrive as adults as they get older. And I think the biggest impact people like Will can have when they are going into schools, and even post-secondary education, is the impact Will has on the greater community. The greater students that are involved in that school because they get to learn who Will is, the person Will is, the strengths Will has, how much fun it is to hang out with Will, and children that Will is with will be a long life friends, they'll be employers, they'll have their own business, they will have an opportunity to hire and invite other people with developmental disabilities in their life, and having Will there to see that Will is a great guy, is a fun guy, will add so much value. Will can only increase their circle or their network of people that they work with, live with, play with. It’s so important to have people like Will, you know fully included in the community, everything from schools, to community sports. We've learned over the last 30 years, Anna Maria, that the special needs classroom really isn't so special.

AMT: And when they leave school, what challenges do Down syndrome people face in entering the workforce?

KIRK CROWTHER: I think that the hardest thing is it's just a perception from employers that they will not be good employees, they won't contribute and there's a great fear there. One of the things that we're trying to do is go to small and medium sized businesses to help them to say these are the benefits of hiring an individual with a developmental disability or with Down syndrome. There is a huge business case that businesses do better and make more money with a

diverse workforce.

AMT: Will, tell us about the work you do to raise awareness about Down

syndrome.

WILL BREWER: First of all, for the previous commitments I've actually had with this society here, last year I actually got awarded the Public Access Awareness Week, our last action award for my contribution to the community. I'm the member of Best Buddies Canada as well from Toronto. They have a chapter here in Halifax at The Mount.

AMT: It's really good to hear that the things that you are doing. It's very important to hear your voice in this conversation. We have to leave it there. Thank you, all of you for talking to me today.

ALL GUESTS: Thank you.

AMT: Will Brewer is a 30-year-old living with Down syndrome. He is also a member of Voices at the Table for Advocacy, a working group at the Canadian Down Syndrome Society. His mother Allison Brewer, is chair of the Halifax, Nova Scotia Down Syndrome Society. They joined us from Halifax. Kirk Crowther is the National Executive Director of the Canadian Down Syndrome Society. He joined us from Ottawa. We did ask Immigration Refugee and Citizenship Canada for its response. Citing privacy, it said it would not comment on individual cases without consent. It did say in this, a statement which reads in part, and I'm quoting, “Canada's immigration law does not discriminate against those with illness or disability. It does strive to find the appropriate balance between those wanting to emigrate to Canada and the limited medical resources that are paid for by Canadian taxpayers. No particular health condition makes an applicant automatically inadmissible to Canada”. End quote from the Immigration Refugee and Citizenship Canada. Tell us what you're thinking as you listen to Will Brewer and Allison Brewer. If you have experience with individuals or officials whose decisions make assumptions about you or someone you know with Down syndrome, tell us about it. We are @thecurrentcbc, click on the contact link. You can tweet us @thecurrentcbc. Go to the website cbc.ca/thecurrent. You can find us on Facebook, and if you are joining us partway through you can find our conversation on the site or you can download the podcast. Now, earlier we were pondering Canada-Cuba relations in light of the thaw between the US and Cuba and the trip by President Obama that's underway now that ends today. Of course, Canada's warm relations with Cuba go back decades and in 1976, it was Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau’s trip to the island that made headlines around the world. We will leave you today with a news report from that 1976 trip. The CBC‘s Don McNeill was reporting on the cordial relationship between Pierre Elliott Trudeau and the Cuban leader Fidel Castro. He sent back this tape of both leaders’ speeches to the Cuban people. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, thank you for listening to The Current.

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[cheers and clapping]

DON MCNEILL: It was in Cienfuegos, near the Bay of Pigs on the south coast of the island that Trudeau and Castro came to deliver their major speeches of the visit. They had spent the night together in a small lodge. They had gone skin diving and caught fish for their dinner. They had talked late into the night. There was now a growing affection for each other noticeable to reporters. Castro as an orator is a spellbinder. People obviously have a deep affection for him. They hang on every word. For Trudeau there was polite applause and attention, until near the end when he suddenly electrified the crowd with this salute: Viva Cuba! Viva Castro!

[Theme: Music]

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Mar. 22, 2016 episode transcript

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