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March 21, 2016 episode transcript.

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Every institution that had a role in taking care of these kids and making them safe has to strengthen how they do business.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: They moved away from small communities as young teens for the very thing they and their parents thought would keep them safe and give them a future; a high school education. Seven First Nations kids each dead under bewildering circumstances over a period of about a decade. All in Thunder Bay where they'd moved for school. In a moment, The Current's Marc Apollonio on the families looking and hoping for answers. Also today, ever wonder why peace talks rarely seem to lead to peace?

SOUNDCLIP

You cannot create a sustainable peace unless you have women around the table or also signing a peace deal.

AMT: As Syrian opposition leaders make it clear they are assessing whether to even continue with peace talks in Geneva, Sweden's foreign minister is convinced you can't end a war without consulting the women.

Margot Wallström joins us in half an hour to outline what she calls feminist foreign policy. And…

SOUNDCLIP

We know he was from Chile and we know he died two days ago but that's all we know so far because the CBSA is refusing to release any more details.

AMT: The death of two men while in the custody of the Canadian Border Services Agency has renewed criticism of a system that incarcerates non-citizens in seemingly indefinite legal limbo. Are these practices necessary in the name of public safety or is this a system that is unaccountable? We're asking in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Thunder Bay inquest examines death of 7 First Nation high school students

SOUNDCLIP

We are gathered here in this room today because seven Aboriginal youths died while trying to advance their lives and the well-being of their community through education.

AMT: Well with those words last October coroner David Eden launched one of the largest inquests in Ontario’s history; an inquest into the deaths of seven First Nation students. They had left their homes in remote northern Ontario and travelled to the city of Thunder Bay for high school. But the testimony of the nearly 200 witnesses who have taken the stand is filled with stories of the loneliness and racism the students encountered plus alcohol and drug abuse, accusations of inadequate police investigations, and a systemic failure to protect these young people. As the inquest nears its end, family and friends hope for answers. Marc Apollonio brings us this documentary titled, Out There.

MARC APOLLONIO: In her small pre-fab home - her trailer, she calls it - Maryanne Panacheese pulls up a chair and begins sorting through boxes, showing me mementos of her son, Paul. Through the window, I see dogs running among other trailers and small homes. I've come here to her community, Mishkeegogamang - or Mish, as locals call it - to hear more of Paul's story. A story Maryanne told back in October 2015, when she travelled down to Thunder Bay and was the first parent to testify at the inquest. With me, today, she begins with some happy memories of Paul.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: Yeah, we used drive around the city. And he'd say, let's go for a coffee and stuff like that. So one time anyways we went to Tim Horton's drive-thru and we got to the place where you got to pay. And I thought he had money and he thought I had money (laughs) and we start laughing. And the girl says, just go ahead. So anyways, we went back and paid (laughing).

MARC APOLLONIO: Maryanne smiles a lot when talking about her boy, especially his quirky sense of humour, and his peculiar taste in t-shirts.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: “Tough guys wear pink,” or something like that (laughing).

MARC APOLLONIO: But she hasn't invited me here to reminisce. She wants to talk about what happened to Paul, when he left Mish for Thunder Bay, to get his high school education.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: I think the system failed to look after Paul and I hope they change the way they look after our students.

MARC APOLLONIO: Mishkeegogamang is an Ojibway First Nation about 500 kilometres north of Thunder Bay, about the same latitude as James Bay but farther west. We're surrounded by water; lakes and rivers everywhere. And trees, deep in the boreal forest; spruce range far as you can see. But what Mishkeegogamang doesn't have, like most First Nations communities in the north of Ontario, is a high school. Paul, like any youth here who wants a diploma, had to leave home to get one. Like many of his friends, he ended up at Dennis Franklin Cromarty High School, or DFC, a school for First Nations kids in Thunder Bay. An arrangement his mom says was far from ideal, but worth it for an education.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: I was comfortable because he was staying with one of our band members and I think he stayed there the whole year.

MARC APOLLONIO: It was in Paul's second year that Maryanne's worries began.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: It's when he started to get to know Thunder Bay or whatever reason; he started drinking with his friends. And after that, I think, that's when he got bounced around too with the boarding homes.

MARC APOLLONIO: More than ten boarding homes in just four years. The housing situation, Paul's drinking, and skipping school, it wasn't sitting well with his mom. Maryanne, who'd been a Mishkeegogamang band councillor for six years, quit her job, packed her bags, and headed to Thunder Bay. She rented a house. She and Paul moved in. It felt great to be reunited.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: I guess I treated him like a baby (laughs). Just for him to be happy, to be home.

MARC APOLLONIO: Paul was still drinking with his friends and told his mom a little about the drugs he was doing. But at least, she says, the communication was good. Until one night, lying in bed, Maryanne heard Paul come home. He'd been out at a party.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: I heard him go to the kitchen. After that I was just listening to what he was doing. Then, all of a sudden I hear a strange noise. I thought it was the TV. The next thing I heard was him falling in the kitchen. I was wondering what's going on here? So I got up and came downstairs and see him on the floor.

MARC APOLLONIO: Maryanne called 9-1-1. Here's how one of the responding officers at the inquest described what happened next.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We saw that he was sort of in a confined space between the sink and the stove. He was lying on his back with a pillow under him because she had made him comfortable. He was warm to the touch but we couldn't get a pulse at that time.

VOICE 2: So what did you do?

MARC APOLLONIO: Not long after, Paul was declared dead in hospital.

MARC APOLLONIO: When did Paul die?

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: November 11, 2006. Nine years now.

MARC APOLLONIO: A forensic specialist told the inquest the cause of Paul's death remains unknown, but that it could have been due to an undetected heart condition. Another question for which Maryanne has no answer.

[Sound: Chopping wood]

MARC APOLLONIO: Down the road from Maryanne's trailer, a young man, Henry Baker, chops wood for his mother. Henry is 28. Back when he was 13, he joined the exodus of youth leaving home for a diploma.

HENRY BAKER: I did just miss this kind of work when I was in the city.

MARC APOLLONIO: He only just moved back now, a decade and a half later. I helped him gather up the split wood and bring it inside where his mom, Connie Gray-McKay is getting a fire going in the wood-burning stove. Connie's a good friend of Maryanne's. She's also the Chief of Mishkeegogamang. When Paul died, Connie helped care for Maryanne's other kids while she dealt with the death of her son. For months, Connie has been following the inquest, relaying new developments to Maryanne. But there's an even more immediate and personal element compelling Connie to track the inquest so closely; her own two girls, Hannah and Savannah, are in high school, in Thunder Bay, right now.

CONNIE GRAY-MCKAY: You want to scare them because it really isn't always friendly out there. Tell them that somebody can throw you in a car and kill you, like you don't know what your neighbours are like.

MARC APOLLONIO: Connie knows firsthand the dangers of being native, a teenager, and on her own in the city for the first time. Like her girls, Hannah and Savannah, like her son, Henry, like Paul, she went to Thunder Bay for high school too.

CONNIE GRAY-MCKAY: Friendship Centre used to have dances on the Port Arthur side. We missed our bus so there were three of us, we hitchhiked and got in a vehicle and this guy tried to make sexual connotations to us. So we got really scared and just jumped out.

[Sound: Phone dialing]

MARC APOLLONIO: I want to ask Connie's girls about life in Thunder Bay. I call 14-year-old Savannah, several times.

[Sound: Voicemail speaker speaking in alternate language]

[Sound: Basketball bouncing in gym]

MARC APOLLONIO: A couple of days later, I'm down in Thunder Bay. I go to meet Savannah at Dennis Franklin Cromarty High School. I find her in the gym doing what she loves. The loneliness hits, in particular, when she thinks of her Mom, Connie.

SAVANNAH GRAY: I really do miss my mom. I miss her company and I miss when she's grumpy, tired. My mom's my favourite person in the world so it’s a little different not to have her around.

MARC APOLLONIO: Savannah is too young to have known Paul Panacheese well, but she's very aware that Paul and other youth, like her, came to Thunder Bay for school and died here.

SAVANNAH GRAY: I was pretty scared at first because of the things that happened in Thunder Bay. I felt really alone at first because I had no friends or anything.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: When did you find out that Jordan's body had been found?

VOICE 2: When we got a call from one of the searchers.

MARC APOLLONIO: Jordan Wabasse, Jethro Anderson, Curran Strang, Reggie Bushie, Kyle Morriseau; five teenaged boys, each of them found dead in one of the rivers which run through Thunder Bay. Robyn Harper, an 18-year-old girl who died within days of arriving in Thunder Bay, medical experts testified it was alcohol poisoning. And Paul Panacheese. These are the seven students whose lives and deaths are at the heart of this inquest. It's one of the largest in Ontario's history. Families and friends of the students have travelled hundreds of kilometres - many by plane, from fly-in communities - to attend. They want to know how these young people - six of them from the same, small high school - died in just over a decade. Deaths many family members believe could have been prevented.

JULIAN FALCONER: It's a broken system and by definition, the institutions involved in the administration of the system are unable or failed to deliver.

MARC APOLLONIO: Julian Falconer is a lawyer with the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, a political body which represents 49 First Nations in northern Ontario. He says many institutions failed these kids including his own client, and the Northern Nishnawbe Education Council, or NNEC, which runs the high school.

JULIAN FALCONER: Every institution that had a role in taking care of these kids and making them safe has to strengthen how they do business. Now having said that, there are some institutions, such as NNEC, where an absolute lack of resources and lack of wherewithal accounts for much of the failings as other institutions that don't have those excuses.

MARC APOLLONIO: One institution that doesn't have those excuses, Julian Falconer says, is the police. He says they botched the investigations into the deaths of the students repeatedly. He uses Paul's death as an example.

JULIAN FALCONER: I asked questions around why it took years before the police even queried the people that were in the company of Paul Panacheese in the hours leading up to death. This is in circumstances where there was no apparent cause for the death. In other words the cause was a mystery. Leading authorities generally as a matter of protocol to interview and get the best information possible on what the person might have ingested and circumstances in the final hours before they died. Mystifyingly, that didn't happen.

MARC APOLLONIO: Julian Falconer says it's a common theme: police doing sloppier work for Indigenous people than for anyone else. Police lawyer, Brian Gover, calls that nonsense.

BRIAN GOVER: I think you have to recognize that his death was investigated forensically. We know, for example, what his blood alcohol level was, we know what the alcohol level in is urine was. We know that metabolites of marijuana were present in his bloodstream. And frankly his girlfriend wouldn't have assisted in that respect because there was clear medical scientific evidence.

JULIAN FALCONER: That is not how standard police protocol happens. They interview witnesses in around the time of death in order to ensure that they get real time accounts while memories are fresh. The toxicology report itself takes weeks if not months to produce. If the suggestion is that they were going to wait weeks or months to go back and interview witnesses, well I don't understand it and frankly I don't think that that is a reasonable suggestion. Police interview witnesses around to death at the time of the death.

MARC APOLLONIO: And there are other criticisms of police work, testimony at the inquest indicated it took police two weeks before talking to the individual identified as the last person to see Kyle Morriseau before his death. Police respond to this by saying that during that time they believed Kyle was alive and well. In the case of Jethro Anderson - whose body was found in Thunder Bay's Kaministiquia River - police issued a press release stating, no foul play was suspected in the 15-year-old's death before a post-mortem examination was conducted. Critics say this shows the police had tunnel vision during their investigation. Regardless of what the inquest jury makes of the testimony, police are not on trial here. The inquest has no power to assign guilt. It's about figuring out what happened and making recommendations to police, to governments, and to teachers.

[Sound: Foot traffic]

MARC APOLLONIO: Walking through the hallway, the day I visit Dennis Franklin Cromarty High School, it hardly feels like the setting of so much heartache. I go to see DFC's principle, Jonathan Kakegamic; he was a teacher here in Paul Panacheese's day.

JONATHAN KAKEGAMIC: He was a cool guy. He always helped; if you asked him to do dishes, he'd do dishes. You’d never forget him.

MARC APOLLONIO: Without any prompting, he goes right to Paul's t-shirts.

JONATHAN KAKEGAMIC: He used to always wear a pink t-shirt and said, “Tough guys wear pink.”

MARC APOLLONIO: In fact, Jonathan knew all six DFC students whose deaths led to the inquest. As principal, he's well aware the school itself is being criticized for failing them. He says he and his team are doing what they can to make DFC a safer place. But sometimes, he says, trouble comes looking for the kids, right up to the front doors of the school.

JONATHAN KAKEGAMIC: I had kids stand out here, right on my front step here, and people call, hey, Indian go home or bogan, you know what I mean? And that's sick. I still face racism once in a while and when I feel it, it's not good. When my students feel that way, I can't comprehend how they feel. They have to cope and with our students, most of the time it’s alcohol. When you have a kid drinking Monday night or Tuesday night, they're drinking because they're hurting.

MARC APOLLONIO: Today, Jonathan runs an extensive after-school program every weekday. They have support teams patrolling the city in mini-vans until at least 1:00am every night, making sure kids are safe and giving them rides. But Jonathan says the most critical thing is teaching the students to look out for each other.

JONATHAN KAKEGAMIC: Just to give you an example, last fall, three guys are drinking, one boy had too much. So the other boy panicked because he had charges with them. So he left, he bailed. The other boy ran to get help. That took about 20-30 minutes. That was almost too much for that boy to survive hypothermia; he almost didn't make it. So that boy, I'm proud of him, he got in trouble but he knew he had to help his buddy. The last student that we lost, Kyle Morriseau, his friends left him with other people. We don't know what happened but he was found in the river, two weeks later. But if those friends didn't leave him or if they went for help; we all believe Kyle would still be alive.

MARC APOLLONIO: Maryanne Panacheese welcomes Jonathan's assurances that his team is making life safer for the kids. But, she says, it's hard to be convinced when the school let her own boy fall through the cracks.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: Even when he started drinking, I never got phone calls from them saying, Paul is out missing school, or Paul is out drinking. I never got those phone calls.

MARC APOLLONIO: Maryanne believes it's crucial that the vetting process for boarding families is improved. In his multitude of boarding homes, she says her son was subjected to a long list of poor treatment. He faced intimidation, and his personal effects were stolen. In one home, he'd go hungry because his food was kept under lock and key.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: You expect that boarding home or that boarding parent to look after your child while they're away from home so they can get their education. Not to mistreat them or treat them differently.

MARC APOLLONIO: Jonathan, the principal, says a lack of cash contributes to the problem. He simply can't offer as much money to boarding parents as other organizations, so it's harder to get quality families. Figures published in 2012 by the Nishnawbe Aski Nation show the provincial government spends significantly more money per student in the mainstream school system, than is spent by the federal government on kids in First Nations schools.

CONNIE GRAY-MCKAY: Those beads are going to be everywhere. I knew you guys were up to no good, get out of here.

MARC APOLLONIO: Back in Mishkeegogamang...

[Sound: Dog barking]

MARC APOLLONIO: Connie Gray McKay is laying down the law. Not in her role as chief but as custodian of two dogs; a very large one and a very small one, Bruno and Oscar, her daughter's dogs.

CONNIE GRAY-MCKAY: I hug them, take that loneliness away sometimes. I also have to referee between them and sometimes I have to do that with my own girls.

MARC APOLLONIO: Despite worrying for her girls, Connie believes there are benefits for them to experience life off-reserve.

CONNIE GRAY-MCKAY: I think you do need to have that experience out there because maybe the opportunities may not be in your community so you might have to go out there.

MARC APOLLONIO: In her home, her trailer, looking at pictures of her son, Maryanne says she too knew it was important for her boy to go out there.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: Well, I always told my son, you know, you just have to go out there and learn, explore. To be able to be successful, you've got to accept what's out there. And he wanted to be out there. One time he said he wanted to join the army and see other countries and stuff like that.

MARC APOLLONIO: So that was his dream, to see the world?

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: Yeah, that was his dream.

MARC APOLLONIO: She points out a bright painting hanging on the wall.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: It's his last picture I think he drew. There's two hands pointing the same direction and there's a sun behind it and there's a path leading to that place.

MARC APOLLONIO: So how often do you look at that picture up there?

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: I see it every day. Sometimes when I think about him, I think that's where he went. It’s the place he wanted to go to.

AMT: We have been listening to the documentary, Out There. It was produced by The Current's Marc Apollonio and our documentary editor, Joan Webber. With the First Nations youth inquest entering its final stages, the jury is expected to make recommendations later this spring. Let us know what you’re thinking as you’re listening to this documentary, you can reach us @thecurrentCBC on Twitter. You can find us on Facebook or go to our website, www.cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link.

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Swedish Minister Margot Wallström says Syria talks need more women

Guests: Margot Wallström

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

AMT: She is one of Europe's most vocal politicians. About a year and a half ago when long time Swedish social democrat politician Margot Wallström was given a government's Foreign Affairs portfolio she said there would be no more games or real politic. Swedish foreign policy would be principled, blunt, and explicitly feminist. She believes Syria's peace process would have a better chance of success if there were more women at the table. That's what she calls feminist foreign policy. Swedish Foreign Affairs Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Margot Wallström joins me from Stockholm. Hello.

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Thank you very much.

AMT: What does it mean to have a feminist foreign policy?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: It means that we define it as a peace and security issue to ensure that women enjoy the same rights, representation, and resources as men and that we start by doing a reality check, if you want. So we see that women are still discriminated around the world and they do not enjoy the same situation as men and that we will also become an impediment to creating long lasting peace. So we work actively for ensuring that women, for example, in the peace process in Syria are given a voice, a seat around the table, a chance to influence their own future.

AMT: And how does it change the way your government looks at a long and complex conflict like Syria?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Well, we will always ask the question: Where are the women? Where are the women when it comes to the situation in Libya or Mali? Or look at the good examples of today in Colombia, where I think that the key to success is to ensure that women were included in the peace process proactively.

AMT: tell us a little bit more about that Colombia experience.

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Well, in Colombia, the peace process when it started did not have women on board. Thanks to very strong women organizations and also to a number of countries that insisted on having women represented, it changed and I think they have played, since then, a very, very - or throughout the process - a very active role. And I think since that there are so many victims, not least of sexual violence, unless you deal with that how can you have peace? Then it is not a peace for all, but only for some.

AMT: So did you see that in the case of Colombia when women were brought to the table and put in that process, you actually saw a real change in the way that negotiations went?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Not personally, but I think the world saw that it meant-- And our academic experience and knowledge is also that if you bring women to the negotiating table it will there get more options on the table and it will stand a better chance to last longer, a peace agreement, because almost half of all peace agreements fail within five years. To include women, it will substantially increase the likelihood of peace agreements being not just reached but sustained.

AMT: Are you telling me that if more women were involved Syria would not have just celebrated its fifth anniversary of a war?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: I am convinced about that. I'm convinced the women also very often are the first ones to see when a society starts to break down, the risk of conflict and war. And I think the two do conflict prevention becomes more and more important. So maybe it is the sort of intelligence of women that should be used to much more in the future.

AMT: So what role should women be playing in Syria right now?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: First of all, we have supported Staffan de Mistura, the political track, because the only long term solution to the conflict in Syria is a political one. Staffan de Mistura has created an advisory group of women and we have also helped more women in the opposition to get together and make sure that they are heard. We finance their trips to Geneva. We have also or helped them to meet and train them and I have myself been on Skype on a couple of occasions with them to hopefully be able to give some practical advice on how to take this further.

AMT: Can I just clarify Mistura is the special UN envoy?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: He’s the representative of the—Yes. Special envoy of the United Nations.

AMT: Who’s a male.

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: He’s a male, yes.

AMT: Should it be a female?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Well, I think at least in any negotiating team there has to be women and we have seconded -one his four, sort of, team leaders is a woman that we have seconded [indecipherable], so she’s an ambassador that now serves also on his team.

AMT: Okay. And I just interrupted you. You were going to -- You've been in contact with women in Syria through Skype. What are they telling you? What are those conversations like?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Very often women bring other experiences to bear because they will talk about how difficult it is just to live a life still in Syria. They live very often in those pockets where use can still exist with the family and then they have the problems of making sure that there is electricity every day, that there is water, or that they can have access to medicine in or other services. And that's their main concern and this is where it starts, but they also want to build the society for the future, a peaceful society for the future and they want to be counted on, not just like victims but as actors of change for their society. Many of them are still living in Syria. There are also many who are engaged from abroad, of course, but it's important to get in the experiences of all of those that still live in Syria.

AMT: I was going to say, you're talking on political process and real life with them and at the same time you must also be hearing about the day to day of what that war is doing—

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Exactly.

AMT: --on every level to them.

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: And it's important that those who fight the kind of proxy war, who are those actors that come from other countries that they understand how it affects the people who try to live the daily life there, to care for your parents or your children and your family in the midst of all this violence and rubble and the horrific attacks.

AMT: You know, a few months ago I spoke to the Syrian journalist Zaina Erhaim about the role she sees Syrian women playing in the country today. She happened to be in Washington when I spoke to her, but she does live in Aleppo in the midst of this war. I'd like you to hear what she had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

In general, women are under different layers of suppression and war. So beside the horrific bombing of the masculine kind of military war, most of these areas that I'm looking at now is mainly conservative. So they're kind of suppressed by different means and I think men are so much taken by frontlines and war, but the actual life is on the left by those women.

AMT: Margot Wallström, what do you think of what she had to say?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: No, exactly. That is also my experience so when I talk to those Syrian women over Skype then-- I mean, who am I to tell them anything? They have been through things that I can only try to imagine. But what they are not used to is, of course, a democratic process where they are also allowed in. And so I tried to be very pragmatic in giving some advice to say that what you first of all have to do is to make sure that you get a role at the centre of the process and if it is not given, then you have to take it yourselves, because you represent more than 50 percent of the people in Syria. And then to focus on the substance so that they must, for example, formulate three priorities for the ceasefire, try to find as much of facts and figures as possible, and that they demand information and transparency, that they identify who are important players, who are their allies, and also to get military - if they can - get military leaders to buy into a certain course of action, and then networking interaction and communication, stick together and also be aware that they will be criticised and under pressure. But the rest they know better than anyone else how life is changed by war and the heavy, heavy cost of war because they pay that.

AMT: And in the course of your speaking to these women do you see even an incremental ways how they aren't getting heard or are they having a lot of obstacles?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: I think they have already seen the obstacles because they are entering into a space and into an activity that that is new to many of them, in terms of being in a formal sort of negotiation process. But they are also so clever, they are so intelligent and experienced already, so it's just a matter of learning the game, so to say, and I trust them fully in being able to take on this responsibility. But, of course, they will see that there are a lot of hurdles and not least the roles that men and women are traditionally given in in Syria.

AMT: And I guess the learning curve is also from the outside as well because the people have to be invited to the table, right, by the Western leaders. So you’re a foreign minister who's pushing for this. How much support are you getting from others of your stature?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Well, I would say that first of all Staffan de Mistura, he understands this and he has actively or soul been pushing for having this advisory group of including women, so he knows that it cannot be a long lasting peace if women are not there. And, as I said already, they represent more than 50 percent of the Syrian people. So how can you-- how can-- I mean, more women more peace, that is what we believe in. And, to me, I think that when we start to do something like this we get the support of others. They see that it is useful. They see that it is constructive and it will help the process.

AMT: There were several women involved in top level talks to reach the Iran nuclear deal, including American diplomat Wendy Sherman. We have a clip of what she had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

Quite frankly, in these situations I'm not there as myself. I’m there is the United States of America. Madeleine Albright taught me that lesson when she was Secretary of State and when she was UN ambassador she sat behind a nameplate that said the United States of America. And so when you have authority gender becomes slightly less of an issue.

AMT: That's American diplomat Wendy Sherman speaking at Boston College Law School last year. Margot Wallström, do you feel the same way when you represent Sweden?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: I represent my country. That's important, but it also matters that I am a woman and I noticed or thought very much about the last time we met with Foreign Affairs Council of the European Union, there were only three women on a board of 28. It’s sad.

AMT: You know, at the same time Margaret Thatcher was known as combative and stubborn as a negotiator, not so prone to compromise. Is it fair to point to a women as specifically gender as the issue?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: I'm not saying that women are better. I’m not saying that they are overall better. They have different-- they bring a different perspective to the table, different experience to the table and there are good and bad examples also around the world. But I think in general the problem is that women are not properly represented, that the potential of all of these women is not used. In many countries, it is a very traditional divide of responsibilities and work between women and men and if you never let women in, how can you understand fully, how can you build a society? I saw it very much as special representative of the UN on conflict related sexual violence when women are also very often the backbone of their societies in that they are the ones who grow something, carry produce to the market. They are the ones that care for the families and when you hurt a woman you hurt not only an individual but also a family and a village and in the end the society.

AMT: And, of course, we're seeing this again in Syria right now.

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Exactly.

AMT: I want to ask you about something else. Former US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice spent a long time trying to broker peace between Israelis and Palestinians as well as many women's groups. Why do you think a solution has been elusive in those talks?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Oh, that's a full program, I think, of a foreign radio program. There have been also some strong women involved on the Israel side and on the Palestinian side who can hope that women and young people will be included in any discussions about the future. It's their future.

AMT: And last year as your country's top diplomat, you were condemned by Israel after recognizing the state of Palestine. Israeli officials did not want to meet with you. Critics said you were putting Sweden's political leverage at stake. Do you stand by what you said? Were you at all troubled by the reaction to your call?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: No. I mean, we are in the company of more than a 150 countries around the world who have recognized Palestine. But we want to have a normal diplomatic relations with both Israel and Palestine. I think that you cannot be on one side. You have to be on the side of peace. That's the only position you can take in those states. We continue to invite also Israel to dialogue with us and work with us. We are still hopeful that we can come back to negotiations and something that can lead to a two- state solution.

AMT: You were also criticized with regard to Saudi Arabia. How does your feminist foreign policy deal with Saudi Arabia?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Well, we have restored the diplomatic contacts with Saudi Arabia. And we have a respectful dialogue also on the things where we have different views. And when it comes to that particular issue of export of weapons we have had a commission looking into that and we’ve had a proposal for how to introduce also democracy criteria and this is right now being discussed in the Swedish society and there will be a proposal for a new legislation later on.

AMT: You know, Canada is in its own controversy over the sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia. But your controversy related, did it not, to specifically the issue of feminist foreign policy and the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia? Also the flogging of Raif Badawi?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Yeah. I mean, it was a matter of human rights and respect for human rights. And human rights, of course, are also women's rights. And I think they're well aware of our position when it comes to fighting for democracy and human rights. So, again, we just have to keep that respectful dialogue up. Also on that issue, I was not the only one, of course, that protested against these methods. I was very pleased to see Justin Trudeau and the new government in Canada and the declarations that he made about being a feminist and how they intend to run politics as well. I think it is very inspiring. I'm looking forward to meeting with, of course, my counterpart the foreign minister for a bilateral meeting and also to discuss those matters more. We need more of that, actually, more courageous political leaders.

AMT: It's interesting because when we talk about women in politics we often point to Sweden (laughs) in North America.

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: [indecipherable]

AMT: How difficult is it to take a stand based on your principles when it can isolate you politically even internally and threaten your country's political relationships externally?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: But it has not. I would not agree to that description. It has not isolated us in any way. On the contrary. I find huge interest and I found some comfort in knowing the quote from Gandhi, you know, who said that, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win. And I think this is what happened. There was some giggling when we presented the feminist foreign policy, but that has definitely stopped. And instead we see huge interest in what we are doing. And also we introduced an action plan on our feminist foreign policy initiatives that we have taken in creating networks of women mediators and negotiators. I think they will play a very important role from now on. So we are trying to be consistent and I think also everywhere in the world they see that this makes sense, that it is simply smart politics. I think that is what Justin Trudeau has understood also.

AMT: And, you know, since Mr. Trudeau has come to power Canada's view of asylum seekers and the bringing in of new Syrian refugees has changed as well. And I wanted to ask about Sweden's plan earlier this year to deport thousands of asylum seekers. What happened there?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: No, we are not deporting asylum seekers. We are-- Of course, those that do not have a reason to get asylum they will have to leave and that is simply according to the rules of asylum, but we have received, until now-- Last year we received somewhere around a 163,000 asylum seekers to Sweden and in one year, in 2015, we went from 400 to 36,000 unaccompanied children that we welcomed to Sweden, so it has been an enormous task. But we continue to respect the laws on asylum.

AMT: This is an issue all European countries are trying to grapple with.

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: We are trying to. We are insisting on showing solidarity also between the European countries because we cannot end up in a situation where the few countries buy all the barbed wire and a few others buy all the blankets. That is not the way forward.

AMT: You have been in politics since you were 25, am I right?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Yeah. Yeah, I guess.

AMT: What have you learned? How old are you now?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: 62. I will be 62.

AMT: Okay. What have you learned through your years in politics about what it takes as a woman in politics when women in politics have not always been as embraced in terms of the kind of things you're talking about - a feminist foreign policy - what have you learned over those decades that you bring to this job now?

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: I think you have to follow your heart. I think you have to believe in what you're doing. I think some healthy doubt is sometimes a good thing. I think you have to find good allies and friends who support you. I think you have to have both courage and patience and plan well.

AMT: Margot Wallström, thank you for speaking with me today.

MARGOT WALLSTRÖM: Thank you very much. Thank you. All the best.

AMT: Margot Wallström is Sweden's Minister of Foreign Affairs. She is also the country's deputy prime minister and she joined us from Stockholm. As she mentioned, the Swedish government is working to bring more Syrian women to Geneva to participate in Syria's peace talks. We will link to an editorial Minister Wallström wrote on that topic on our website. You can find it at cbc.ca/thecurrent. While you're there email us what you think of that conversation. Just hit the Contact link. You can also tweet us. We are @thecurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Let us know what you think. Is a feminist a foreign policy a way forward? Do you agree with what she's saying? Do you see problems with what she's saying? Let us know. And if you're just joining us partway through, you can download that conversation, listen to it right online, cbc.ca/thecurrent.

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Deaths in CBSA custody renew calls for immigration detention reform

Guests: MacDonald Scott, Stockwell Day

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

MACDONALD SCOTT: If they had not been put in jail because they dared to aspire to stay at a land where their communities were, not to go back to a home where they faced poverty and death and displacement, they would not be dead. Today, we call for no immigration detention. We call for those centres to be shut down, those cells to be closed, those cell blocks to be closed. We call for no migrants in detention. No migrants in detention.

[cheering]

AMT: Well, that was the scene outside the offices of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada in Toronto last week. Protesters were there following two deaths in early March in the space of a week. The men who died were being held in the custody of the Canada Border Services Agency, the CBSA. The agency has released few details about those deaths. As you heard, advocates are adamant that both men would still be alive if they had not been taken into immigration detention. I am joined in our Toronto studio by the man you just heard shouting into the megaphone, MacDonald Scott helped organize that protest. He is an immigration consultant for the Toronto law firm Carranza LLP. He is also a member of the group No One is Illegal. Hello.

MACDONALD SCOTT: Good morning.

AMT: So, first of all you were quite emotional there. Why is this so important to you, personally?

MACDONALD SCOTT: I've been working on immigration detention issues for about 15 to 20 years, both here and in the United States. In fact the last time I was on CBC, I think was around a Canadian being detained in the United States and I've gotten to know the people over the years, I've had gotten to be friends with the people detained. I had a friend die in the United States after being released due to health concerns that arose while in detention. It's been a strong issue for me for that long period.

AMT: Let's talk about the Canadian side of this. The CBSA is not revealing information about these two men. What has convinced you that they are symbolic of what you call a broken system?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Well, we've been fighting on this since for three years since 191 men went on hunger strike in the Central East Correctional Center three years ago. We've been fighting to try and get a release period like the United States and the European Union have, a period where if someone is not removed they're released, and it's come to a head. In those three years we've seen 14 people die since 2000. We've seen people held up to 10 years. We've seen detentions increase in numbers every year. And you know, when you have a system that's broken, sooner or later it's going to boil over and these deaths are symbolic of that.

AMT: 14 people died since 2000, how did they die?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Various ways. Some died of disease, some killed themselves, there have been situations where we believe that there's been abuse by guards that's led to death—

AMT: Has that ever been investigated, has that ever been proven?

MACDONALD SCOTT: It’s never been proven in courts as far as I know, but I mean again, you're also talking about a system where there is no oversight body. There is no outside third party that does the investigation. CBSA investigates themselves.

AMT: Disease. When you say they died of disease, what do you mean?

MACDONALD SCOTT: The medical—

AMT: Illness?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Illness, yes.

AMT: Illness they had but maybe were not getting enough treatment?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Exactly.

AMT: Okay. We contacted the CBSA for an interview, instead it offered us an e-mail in a statement. In part it reads, “The CBSA is committed to ensuring the health and safety of those in our care. As is the case with any death in custody, the CBSA takes this matter seriously and will complete a review of the circumstances surrounding death”. What do you think of that, MacDonald Scott?

MACDONALD SCOTT: I think that if I went and stole something from a bank and then someone in my family was put in charge of investigating that theft, that you wouldn’t get a good outcome. And that's what goes on. CBSA investigates itself. It's the only federal law enforcement body in Canada that doesn't have a third neutral party investigating complaints and problems.

AMT: Okay, so talk to me a little bit more. How many people do you believe are in detention under CBSA authority right now?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Usually there are about 600-700, maybe more in detention across Canada.

AMT: Why?

MACDONALD SCOTT: They're being detained for the purposes of removal. What happens is under the Immigration Refugee Protection Act, CBSA has the power to detain someone in order to remove them if they think either they're a danger to the public or a possible flight risk.

AMT: So, some of this would be regular deportation, some of this would be people who arrive who are denied and they're supposed to be sent back?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Exactly.

AMT: Some of them end up in a legal limbo, why is that?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Well, there are three parties at the table in a removal, right? There's the person who is being removed, there's the Canadian government which is removing them, and then there's the country of origin, which has to agree to accept them, issue what's called a travel document if there isn't a passport. In many cases the third party, the country of origin will not accept the person, is refusing to issue a travel document. So, let's take for an example, Jamaica, because they are one of the countries that often won't issue a travel document. They look at someone being removed and they say this person hasn't been in our country for 20 years. They left when they were two years old. They may or may not have a criminal history, they may or may not have mental health issues. Whatever the case, they look at the person, they say this person is going to arrive back in our country, be unemployed, no one's going to hire them because they're a deportee, they're going to end up a strain on the system as a result so why would we take them? Now they're required by international law—

AMT: Because they're a citizen of that country.

MACDONALD SCOTT: Exactly.

AMT: So, these people get caught in a limbo between Canada wanting to deport them and the country where they're originally from not willing to take them or saying they don't actually belong here.

MACDONALD SCOTT: Exactly.

AMT: Okay, so how does CBSA detention differ from a regular jail?

MACDONALD SCOTT: It doesn't in most cases. So out in the Central East Correctional Centre, which is the largest holding center for migrants that's the provincial facility in the country, you've got about 190-200 people being held in a provincial jail, maximum security. They have very little access to programs. In the summer when the guards go on vacation, they're often on lockdown for 22 hours a day. I just read, preparing for this interview, about one gentleman who talked about being in jail or in his cell sometimes for up to two days at a time. So, you do have some people held to a minimum security facility called the Toronto Immigration Holding Centre. There is also one in Laval and there's one in Vancouver.

AMT: Are these regular jails? They're put in regular jails along with other inmate populations. Are they separate?

MACDONALD SCOTT: They are separate.

AMT: Okay, but they're in those facilities, they're not in facilities built specifically for non-citizens?

MACDONALD SCOTT: There are facilities built specifically for non-citizens, The Toronto Immigration Holding Centre, the holding centre in Laval, Quebec, the holding centre in Vancouver but many people are actually held within provincial facilities. For example, the one in Vancouver can only hold people up to 48 hours. If they're going to hold someone longer, they have to prove they have to transfer them to a provincial facility.

AMT: And those facilities, do they look like regular jail cells?

MACDONALD SCOTT: [laughs] Well, you know that's a funny one. The former Minister of Immigration said that they were basically hotels, but they're not. I've been inside them. They are cells, men and women are separated, families are separated, there are guards, you see your family members through glass if they come to visit, there is little access to culturally appropriate food or any kind of spiritual activity, there are very little programs. They are jails, they just look a little nicer.

AMT: What do you know about the two men who died?

MACDONALD SCOTT: We don't know much yet.

AMT: We know one is from Burundi.

MACDONALD SCOTT: And one is from Chile. So, Mr. Gahungu is from Burundi, he killed himself at the Toronto East Detention Centre on March 7th. Mr. Romero Astorga is from Chile and he died on March 13^th. The CBSA is not really releasing details about what happened there.

AMT: How much access to the clients that you work with have to psychological help?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Very little. I mean, a regular person in a regular jail can be transferred into a psychiatric facility where they can access psychiatric help. I've been trying to get a client transferred into one of those facilities who is on immigration hold, and it's basically impossible. So, I have clients with huge mental health issues often exasperated you know, made stronger by being in detention. They might be able to access a psychiatrist once every couple of months, but that's about it.

AMT: CBSA rules say an officer can detain a person if that person is believed to pose a danger to the public or if they suspect that person will not appear for a hearing or exam. Are some detentions justified?

MACDONALD SCOTT: No. I don't believe any immigration detention is justified. It's administrative law. They're using a stick to beat people with, for basically the equivalent of not paying their parking tickets.

AMT: Well, at the same time we're talking about people who have been deported from the country. That's different than a parking ticket.

MACDONALD SCOTT: It's not, actually. It's still administrative law, it's not criminal law. It's done by tribunals, there are not courts involved, there's not a danger or a harm to the public. It's not criminal law and we're using criminal means, punitive punishment means, to punish people for breaking administrative law.

AMT: At the same time, the government says that an officer can detain a person if they are believed to pose a danger, and that all border security people have that right to make that assessment.

MACDONALD SCOTT: That is—

AMT: You're arguing with them but do they not have the jurisdiction to make that decision?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Legally they have the jurisdiction, but that's part of my job to change the laws.

AMT: You were involved in one of Canada's immigration detention cases for a long time. There was a man called A Man With No Name. Who was he?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Michael Mvogo, he's from Cameroon. He was detained 10 years before they finally removed him, and in the process of trying to remove him actually obtained a fraudulent travel document. Two CBSA officers were actually detained in Cameroon on arrival by the Cameroonian officials for using false documents. They were eventually released and Mike was sent back to Canada.

AMT: So, the Canadians gave him a false document?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Canadians obtained and gave him a false document.

AMT: Cameroon didn't believe that he was a Cameroon national, is that right? He had several aliases, did he not?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Yeah, he went under several names. He's there now. They finally admitted that he is Michael Mvogo, born in Cameroon. So, Michael's actually back in Cameroon but what happened there is the classic example of what we're talking about. Cameroon didn't want to take him so they hedged. They stalled, they stalled, they stalled in issuing travel documents. No one can say no because by international law they are required to issue the document. What they do is they stall and they stall and they stall and then our people end up in indefinite detention.

AMT: Would that have been the same if he hadn't had as many aliases? I mean, most people don’t have aliases.

MACDONALD SCOTT: I mean, I don't know obviously because I can only deal with the situation that we are posed with, but I do know that it's common that Cameroon doesn't take people. For example, he had met several people while in detention from Cameroon where they refused to issue travel documents, and I would just add on Michael Mvogo, that the United Nations actually stepped in, said release him, said pay him reparations money for the time he's been held, said Canada needs to have a release period similar to the United States and the European Union.

AMT: Which is how long?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Three months.

AMT: Okay, so how long are the average detentions in Canada right now?

MACDONALD SCOTT: The average ones are actually very short. You have someone come in, they put them out in the trial immigration holding centre, they get a plane ticket and they deport them within a number of days. What you have though, is you have a backlog of people who are being held for long periods of time and it is clearly obvious that they aren't going to be removed. For example, in 2013 there were 183,000 days of detention. So, a number of clients there is I think 2,600 detained that year. Between them they spent 183,000 days in detention.

AMT: But that's a big fat statistic, so when you're dealing with clients you're looking at like the case we just talked about, he was locked up for 10 years which is extreme, but you have people who are locked up for more than a year? More than half a year?

MACDONALD SCOTT: I have a number of clients who were locked up for two, three, four, five years.

AMT: And in your view, how much political will is there to change this?

MACDONALD SCOTT: I think I'm hopeful. I think that with the United Nations behind us, with the fact that we have a number of cases right now in the courts that we've been able to get the Ontario Court to step in now and say that they will assume jurisdiction over detentions through by means of what's called a habeas corpus application. The amount of unity that's inside, the detainees have now put out a petition of their own calling for this release period. I think we're going to win it.

AMT: So, you aren't necessarily—well, you are against all detention, but what you're saying is that there's a backlog it should be dealt with if there are real issues of security, they should be dealt with but not this way?

MACDONALD SCOTT: Not this way. What we're fighting for in the short term, is if you can't remove them, release them. And what we want is a standard in law because right now people are being brought up for review of their detention every 30 days and the law states very clearly that they should only be released where there's compelling reasons to depart from previous decisions. So, you're basically looking at a situation where the onus is on the detainee to prove they should be released so they don't get released. It's costing you $200 a day to hold these folks. It's costing me $207 dollars a day. That's what we pay every day for these folks to be detained. Set a period of time. After three months if you can't remove them, release them.

AMT: Okay, thank you for coming in.

MACDONALD SCOTT: It's nice to meet you.

AMT: MacDonald Scott is an immigration consultant for the law firm Carranza LLP in Toronto. He's also a member of the migrant advocacy group No One is Illegal and he is in our Toronto studio. Now we did ask Ralph Goodale, the Minister of Public Safety for an interview today, he's not available. My next guest however, does have first hand experience working with the CBSA. Stockwell Day is the former leader of the official opposition with the Alliance Party. He served as Canada's Minister of Public Safety between 2006 and 2008 in the Conservative government of Stephen Harper. Stockwell Day joins us from Vancouver, hello.

STOCKWELL DAY: Good morning, good to be with you.

AMT: Well, first of all I guess I should just get your view on this. 14 people have died in the custody of the CBSA since 2000, what do you think of that statistic?

STOCKWELL DAY: Well, anytime there's a death of any kind, it needs to be looked at. There's probably a tragic element in some cases. Any time that someone has gone through that, our family members need to be looked at carefully so that many over 15 years, all of these are looked into and things are brought into place if it's deemed necessary that there was some kind of oversight. So, I think any time there's a death, whatever the circumstances, it needs to be carefully looked at. Sometimes if it's an older person, it could be quote “of natural causes”, but sometimes it may not be. Each one should be taken seriously.

AMT: Some of those overlap with your time as Public Safety Minister, were the same concerns being raised at the time?

STOCKWELL DAY: They were, Anna Maria. The legislation which was brought in by the Liberals in 2002 to be able to detain people and I think this is where your question was insightful and important, you do have situations where people can come out of the country illegally and they are deemed to be dangerous, a danger, or a flight risk as MacDonald said, and they are immediately sent for and moved through the process of deportation. So, it's in that process, because Canada I believe quite rightly, has the most generous appeal process in place of, I think any other nation to respect people's rights. So, you're stuck with a situation where you could have somebody who is deemed to be highly dangerous, they don't want to be deported, they can appeal so can you have them wandering around the country deemed highly dangerous while they're waiting for their appeal? That's the dilemma that our government that's committed to security of its citizens finds itself in and that's why the Liberals brought the legislation in the first place.

AMT: Well, I have a clip I'd like you to hear. This is Abeer Majeed, a family physician in Toronto. She was at the protest last week in front of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada offices. This is what she had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

ABEER MAJEED: These are preventable deaths, no one should have died. Migrants should not be locked up in detention centers. They should be out in the community being able to access resources and services and start a process of recovery and healing. Studies have shown that there is depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, there are children who are in detention centres and they have issues such as not eating well, not sleeping well, showing classic signs of trauma. So again, it's important that people not be detained in immigration centres.

AMT: Stockwell Day, how does the CBSA deal with people who develop mental health issues in their care?

STOCKWELL DAY: There are provisions in place and people have access to various services depending on their situation. I think the doctor's statements there are helpful in determining something here that the organization, No one is Illegal of course, and that's a good you know, I think that's an efficient term to get their philosophy out because they do believe as the doctor just said, nobody should be detained ever. They do believe that nobody should ever be deported. They're actually opposed to prisons and they think all prisons should be abolished and on their website, they even show different means where you can use illegal methods to, for instance, stop a plane from taking off if you think there's someone on the plane who's being deported, so I think it's really important that their positions are known. I do believe that some people in fact really are illegal. If you wake up in the middle of the night and find someone standing in your bedroom that got into your home illegally, that person is illegal and needs to be dealt with. If somebody by the same token, sneaks into your country in the middle of night without the proper means being used, then in fact they are illegal, so that's an interesting term they use but in fact it's unsound, it's unsound in law and probably in reason.

AMT: And we know that the CBSA has the power to do this, but what mechanisms are in place to make sure the CBSA is accountable when someone dies in its custody?

STOCKWELL DAY: You know, that's a really key question because in fact when this legislation was challenged and brought before the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court upheld it but at that time Justice McLachlin deemed that certain provisions actually violated Section 7 of the charter, and that was provisions related to the person who being detained having representation, a lawyer or otherwise, and I know, for instance, it could be someone like MacDonald who's not a lawyer, but he is a consultant. He would be allowed to apply to be that person's representative to see the actual information, to see the evidence which sometimes is classified as secret for national security reasons, so Justice McLachlin said in a case like that where there's secret evidence, there has to be ample representation for the person who is being held, for his or her representative to see that information. And that was very key otherwise, and so changes were made. There are provisions for someone to have a representative look at the information that is holding you and you also have to have shortened time limits that were put in place of the review every 30 days, review seven days after you’re first attained. These types of things were adjusted following the Supreme Court ruling.

AMT: But those seem like process. To be clear, there's no independent oversight board.

STOCKWELL DAY: No, I think that could be looked at just as there's been a suggestion by mainly the opposition, the opposition at the time, an oversight board even to look at some of the information that is classified as secret. I think there's actually a case to be made for that. I can tell you that when I was Minister and having personally gone to one of the facilities to see the actual conditions, this is a facility where at that point, six people are being held. They had 24 hour access upon request to medical attention, they had freedom to practice their religious beliefs, they could have an Imam come right on site—

AMT: You're talking about people held on security certificates, aren’t you?

STOCKWELL DAY: In that case, it was a security certificates but it's all under the same legislation and the same types of provisions are being used.

AMT: But, there are likely people who are a real danger to public safety, but in the hundreds? Do they all need to be held in a minimum to medium to maximum prison?

STOCKWELL DAY: Now that's the difficult part and that's something that certainly we'd have to look, and we do it on a case by case basis. Ralph Goodale is the Minister and I sat across from him for years. I believe is a very thorough, very diligent individual. I'm sure he's probably grappling with these now and it's good to note also as was pointed out Anna Maria, that the person could be deemed a danger, they could be deemed a flight risk, and so under either of those conditions remember at any time, they can make a decision to accept to leave the country, but the problem is, and I think Macdonald helped to point this out, in some of those cases, their country of origin doesn't want them back and it's not usually because they were a two-year-old when they left. It's usually because there's something of concern related to the individual, not always, but it's a dilemma a free and democratic society finds themselves in. They want to protect their citizens so when non-citizens come in who are deemed dangerous and don't want to leave, then it's still coming down to that basic question, do you allow them to have free access to your country while they are deemed either a danger or flight risk?

AMT: You mentioned Ralph Goodale, the Minister of Public Safety now, his office said he wasn't available to talk to us today. They have said that he is quote “concerned about the two recent deaths in custody” and that quote “The government is examining how best to provide the CBSA with appropriate review mechanisms”. But again, should there not be an oversight board? Not to look at the details of the security certificates, but to look at the treatment by the CBSA, the decision process by the CBSA? Who do they answer to once they make those decisions?

STOCKWELL DAY: There is a reporting mechanism and I think Ralph Goodale is being sincere. He'd like to see how this could be adjusted. Certainly any time there is a death, and even if it's somebody who is in detention, there is a very significant series of steps that have to go through in terms of authorities being brought in terms of investigation, in terms of very distinct reporting. If there are ways of making that better, and I think any legislation can be improved, I don't think it should be thrown out as No one is Illegal says, but I think it's always worth a review. Certainly, it's something that I would do in each case when I was Minister. I would want full details on what had happened and are there ways that things could have been handled in a better way, and you know I take as I say, I know Ralph Goodale, and I take him on his word. I think he’ll give it a serious look. It is the Liberals’ legislation and I think he feels strongly about it and I think they’ll look for improvements and let's give him some time and see what happens.

AMT: Stockwell Day, thanks for your thoughts today.

STOCKWELL DAY: Thanks your questions. Bye now.

AMT: Bye bye. Stockwell Day, former leader of the official opposition of the Alliance Party, former Public Safety Minister between 2006 and 2008 in the Conservative government of Stephen Harper. He spoke to us from Vancouver.

[peppy classical music]

AMT: Later this week I'll be joined by a special guest who's celebrating a special birthday. David Suzuki is turning 80 and the scientist and broadcaster will join me to mark that milestone. I'll speak with the longtime host of The Nature of Things about family and fame, science and politics and his philosophy of mortality.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID SUZUKI: I thank God for aging. If it wasn't for aging, you'd never want to die, but we are all at that end of life and I feel this is the most important time of my life. I could kick the bucket any time. I’m in what I call a death zone and there's nothing morbid about about saying that, it's a reality, but I've got something no other group in society has: I've lived an entire lifetime. I've made mistakes, I've had failures, successes, I've learned a lot and I would think that those lessons, hard-won life lessons are what we have a responsibility as elders to sift through and pass on to young people.

AMT: David Suzuki very much alive in what he calls the death zone. You can join us Wednesday here on The Current for my conversation with David Suzuki. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, thank you for listening to The Current.

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Mar. 21, 2016 Episode Transcript

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