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The Current Transcript for March 3, 2016

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

SOUNDCLIP

[clapping, cheering and chanting]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It was a courtroom scene like no other, people cheered and victims got standing ovations. Women ranging in age from their 50's to their 70’s seeing justice after 34 long years. What happened in a Guatemalan courtroom last week marks the very first time sexual assault as a war crime has been prosecuted, not by an International Tribunal but by a Domestic court. In half an hour the story of the Sepur Zarco Military Base and justice delayed no more. Also today, another attempt to eradicate the practice of FGM's female genital mutilation in select African countries with a coming of age ritual that involves no sharp instruments.

SOUNDCLIP

The alternative right of passage allows the girls to go through girlhood to womanhood but without the cut.

[/sc]

AMT: That doctor’s program has saved an estimated 8,000 girls from the painful practice, he will tell us more in an hour as we check in on the stories we've been tracking. But we're starting today with some advice that is increasingly difficult to follow.

SOUNDCLIP

This is very serious. If your child makes a suicidal statement, comment or gesture, please seek out the help of a clinical professional immediately.

AMT: Many Canadians simply don't have access to a clinical professional for their kids. And so parents are turning to emergency care for children facing mental health problems. Changing the nature of hospital waiting rooms and even going into debt to pay for help they cannot afford to wait for. I'm Anna Maria Tremont, this is The Current.

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Half of all hospital beds in Canada for kids and youth filled to treat mental health

Guests: Kimberly Moran, David O’Brien, Louise Bradley

AMT: There is an alarming trend involving a growing number of Canadian children turning to hospitals for mental health services. Across the country Child and Youth Emergency room visits for mental health issues have increased 45 percent in the years between 2007 and 2014. On any given day roughly half of all overnight hospital patients between the ages of five and 24 are being treated for a mental disorder. Kathleen Morris is Vice President of Research and Analysis at the Canadian Institute for Health Information which gathered that data. She says there's a breakdown in community care.

SOUNDCLIP

Ideally you would hope that most kids would be cared for in the community by family doctors or nurses or psychiatrists or social workers and that hospitals should focus on providing short-term care for those with the most complex needs. And what we worry about is that if that community care isn't there or isn't easy to access, the kids may be waiting until they're in crisis before they're getting care and hospitals.

AMT: Well my first guest knows firsthand what happens to children who cannot get mental health treatment. Kimberly Moran is the President and CEO of Children's Mental Health Ontario. Her own daughter became dangerously depressed when she was 11 years old. Kimberly Moran joins me in our Toronto studio, Hello.

KIMBERLY MORAN: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: Tell me first about your daughter, when did you notice something was wrong?

KIMBERLY MORAN: When she was 11 she said she was sad and like any diligent parent we checked her school, we checked her friends to see if there was a problem. There was nothing, she just from a very high performing happy kid, started to be sad and then started to miss school, started to stop doing her activities, she was a competitive gymnast. We knew there was something absolutely wrong. So we looked for help like many parents do from their family physician who referred us to mental health professionals, but there we experienced wait times. Wait times of almost a year in some cases and over a year in others. And within a couple of months unfortunately, she tried to take her life at 11. And I'm sure that's hard for many of your listeners to even wrap their head around how or why an 11 year old would feel that depressed that they would do that. But unfortunately kids when they're 11 can feel the kind of mental distress that adults do. We need to have the right supports in place for them.

AMT: And so when this was happening and you were waiting, what were you thinking? How are you reacting to this?

KIMBERLY MORAN: We were we were looking for help in so many different ways. I remember phoning Kids Help Phone and they would only talk to the kids and my daughter wouldn’t talk to them and I was pleading with them, please talk to me. Let me know what to do, how to help her and we were looking for resources all through Toronto but there was wait times everywhere we turned. And so it was really hard as a parent.

AMT: And so the wait times, you were trying to get her to a psychiatrist, to a psychologist what?

KIMBERLY MORAN: We would have taken anybody at that point, but really I think that now I know better what we needed at the time was really at that point having a social worker be able to help us and talk to her, talk to us about those beginning signs of mental health issues, of depression in her case, and anxiety would have been exactly what we needed. But unfortunately, we didn't get that help, and so very soon within a couple of months, she tried to take her life. We were very lucky, she was only 11 and she just stopped eating and drinking which is, for someone trying to take their life, it's an easier situation to deal with. So she ended up as one of those kids in the emergency room at the hospital and then an inpatient hospital room.

AMT: And did you get the help at the emergency room or what was that like?

KIMBERLY MORAN: I think that for the emergency room, they all of them are quite surprised an 11 year old would want to take their life. I think that it was shocking for everybody including us. But certainly we did get stabilization care at the hospital and in the inpatient unit but, the actual treatment for anybody really, happens in the community. Within a couple of weeks we were back into what's called residential treatment or 24-7 care in the community where typically an interdisciplinary team with social workers, psychologists, psychiatry helps kids who are in the severe mental distress try and find a path forward.

AMT: So in other words, you got the help but only because it became so severe? Before that you had to wait?

KIMBERLY MORAN: That's right and I really believe that if we'd gotten help earlier we wouldn't have ended up in such distress.

AMT: Now you have since become a professional advocate on this issue. You changed jobs, you're working on this, what have you been hearing from other parents?

KIMBERLY MORAN: Well the stories are very similar to ours. I mean our daughter was 11 then, she's 16 now. Only five years have passed. But what we've found is that for kids in distress, at the beginning of their journey, there are new walk-in clinics that have really made a difference, particularly, in the city of Toronto but also throughout the province of Ontario. So for families like ours who are trying to get assistance quickly, they can access a couple of sessions of counselling two or three or four with mental health professionals who can really sort of, perhaps change the course of their experience.

AMT: And if they can't do that, what are they end up having to do, go to private clinics or like pay out of pocket for some?

KIMBERLY MORAN: Some do. I would say that some do, some are accessing family physicians. There's a whole range of places that families go to try and get some support. I think that those walk-in clinic environments have been really helpful for a lot of families like ours, but for a kid that has more significant issues that can't really be solved in a couple sessions like ours, that's where the wait times are still in place, where you can wait almost a year for more--longer term counseling and therapy.

AMT: We asked Ontario's Minister of Children and Youth Services Tracy MacCharles what her ministry is doing to fix this. She said they're increasing funding for children's mental health by six million dollars this year, that they've streamlined the system to get kids faster access to services. She didn’t go into a lot of detail. Is that enough? Is that the right direction in your view?

KIMBERLY MORAN: The government is absolutely going in the right direction and they did make some investments just a few months ago that are going to help. The organization of systems that they're undertaking is going to really help in the long run. But, I do think there's more they can do. I think that there needs to be more investment in the system. And I think that proposition we gave to the government was, actually it's not going to cost you any money. If you take the costs that are occurring in the hospital sector right now, we estimated that over the next five years it's going to cost the Ontario government 700 million dollars. We said if you invested a fraction of that, 325 million dollars into community-based care, expanding these types of interventions, the government would actually save 375 five million dollars.

AMT: Not to mention the ongoing effects of mental health that gets--not to go with.

KIMBERLY MORAN: Absolutely.

AMT: How's your daughter now? She's 16?

KIMBERLY MORAN: Yes, she's 16 now and thank you for asking, she is doing very well. I mean these kids can recover with the right treatment. She has an anxiety disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder that she'll likely have to manage for the rest of her life. But she's gained the tools and so have we, to support her.

AMT: Thank you for coming and thank you for sharing your story.

KIMBERLY MORAN: Thank you.

AMT: That is Kimberly Moran. She's the President and CEO of Children's Mental Health Ontario, she's in Toronto. Well parents are not the only ones frustrated by youth mental health care systems. Many frontline workers are trying to find solutions to systemic problems. David O'Brien is the manager of What's Up walk-in clinics in Toronto that provide counseling to children and youth all the way up to age 29, without an appointment. The fifth such clinic has just opened this week. They are funded by a combination of provincial government money and donations. David O'Brien is also a counseling psychologist. He's in our Toronto studio, hi.

DAVID O’BRIEN: Hi, thanks for having me.

AMT: Good to have you here. Let's talk about this a little bit, you just opened up another one.

DAVID O’BRIEN: That's right we just opened another What's Up walk-in clinic in collaboration with the Griffin Center in Northwest Toronto. There was a real need for quick access to services in that community and neighborhood so we decided to partner with them and open another clinic so people could get that service right away.

AMT: So what did you see that made you want to do this?

DAVID O’BRIEN: Well what happened was, it came from--the genesis of What's Up walk-in came from East Metro Youth Services back in 2011. And it came out of that, the fact that we had a nine month waiting list for counselling services. Which is completely unacceptable, so we decided that we needed to do something different and we needed to be rebellious as they would call it back then in 2011 and try to—

AMT: Disruptive [laughs]

DAVID O’BRIEN: Disruptive change and change the way we were doing business. And you know we saw these walk-in clinics for medical issues, for eye appointments and all kinds of other issues and in our world and why weren't we doing something different in sort of the therapy counseling mental health world? And so in 2011 we decided to open What's Up walk-in in Scarborough at East Metro Youth Services. We went from a nine month waiting list down to a three week a waiting list within a year.

AMT: And why is that?

DAVID O’BRIEN: It's because a lot of the people sitting on the waitlists across Ontario, in Toronto, a lot of them just need two to three counselling sessions actually. And so we've created this system over the years where it's really complex to get help, like you call an agency, you leave a voicemail, you get a call back a few days later, you meet with an intake worker after a few weeks. There's this huge intake process that could last three four hours and then you're sort of moved into these different types of programs. And we decided in the 21st century where we have a world, where we live in a world where there's 24 hour gyms, you can get steak at four in the morning… Why weren't we providing services in a different way, where people can walk in, fill out a two page registration form and then we ask you what's the most important thing you want to talk about today?

AMT: Because not everyone's mental health issue needs more than a few sessions in order to sort of be able to manage and be on track, is that what your-- I don't know if I’m using the right phrase but that's what you're saying, not everyone needs the same level of care?

DAVID O’BRIEN: That’s right, but we've built a system across the province where we think everyone needs intensive care and that's not the case and what has happened is it's created this bottleneck for a longer term services. And people are finding it difficult to access them because we have all these sort of lower intensity, moderate intensity people on wait lists, where they could be better served in a walk in clinic.

AMT: What consequences are you seeing when youth have to wait too long to get help?

DAVID O’BRIEN: Lots of things, and when I do my frontline work I hear a lot of stories of you know, this was a small issue, I was feeling kind of sad and I didn't really know where to go first of all and when I did know where to go, there was there was just a long wait time and I had nobody to talk to, now nine months later, ten months later things are just so much worse. And so the idea of a walk-in counseling is that in the moment, something comes up you walk in today. It stops things from getting bigger and more complex.

AMT: What about those people who come in and you can identify with in a session or two that they actually do need a much more intensive care, what do you do?

DAVID O’BRIEN: What we do is we will do a therapy session. We'll do an assessment and intervention and if we feel like they want more, we think they need more, we will then we for them to longer term more intensive service. Now, with the clinics that we have, the majority of the locations don't have a wait list for longer term services. So those longer term services, what do they look like? They could be longer term intensive counseling which could be up to two days a week, they could be school programs that have a therapeutic element, they could be residential centers. So they would be then diverted into one of those in the longer term intensive programs. But what we're finding is that last year we had 1,500 visits at East Metro Youth Services and that 95 percent of the people were being were able to be served within the walk-in environment. The other five percent went on to longer term services. So what you do is you've cleared out that bottleneck and now those spots are open.

AMT: Not everyone's on the waiting list anymore?

DAVID O’BRIEN: That's right.

AMT: Can they come back to your clinics, like can they just walk in when they want? Absolutely, there are no barriers, there's no time limit, there's no like, you've been here too many times and you can't come back—

AMT: They don’t even need a health card, do they?

DAVID O’BRIEN: No health cards are required, no.

AMT: So you’ve really seen a difference?

DAVID O’BRIEN: We've seen a difference because we've taken down the walls and we haven't made child and youth mental health this really difficult thing to navigate. And I think if we think differently, and you can throw money at this problem all you want, but you're not thinking differently on the ground how to use that money and utilize it and use that innovation, then it's sort of useless.

AMT: Thanks for coming in.

DAVID O’BRIEN: No problem.

AMT: David O'Brian counseling psychologist and the manager of the What's Up walk-in clinics in Toronto, he was in our Toronto studio. Well Health Canada set up the Mental Health Commission of Canada nine years ago and services for children and youth were part of the federal government's mental health strategy in 2012. Many of the recommendations from that report have yet to be put into practice. Louise Bradley is the President and CEO of the Mental Health Commission of Canada. She's been listening in and she joins us from Ottawa, hello.

LOUISE BRADLEY: Good morning Anna Maria.

AMT: You have been listening in what are you thinking as you listen?

LOUISE BRADLEY: Well certainly the stories that I've been listening to this morning aren't the first time and aren't the only ones, unfortunately they're very common.

AMT: And how big of a concern then are wait times for youth mental health services right across the country?

LOUISE BRADLEY: I think that you would see that it's a concern in every single jurisdiction, provincially and territorially. And unfortunately with the raised awareness of the stigma of mental illness, we haven't been able to keep pace with the services that are required. So people are feeling that they can go for help more readily, but with the services simply aren't there for them to access.

AMT: Is anyone keeping good data on this so we know where the gaps are?

LOUISE BRADLEY: The Mental Health Commission released some mental health indicators this past year and that's certainly a first step. Unfortunately each province and territory collects different kinds of data. But I think that we certainly have enough information to know that that this is a huge problem that requires increased investment. But, I would agree with the earlier speakers in that it also requires innovation. The commission has put out a document called The Case for Investment which gives very strong data that demonstrates that with innovation and with an investment of funds, there really can be a difference and if we don't and--this problem is going to grow exponentially.

AMT: You mentioned the stigma. There's been some success in reducing the stigma of mental illness.

LOUISE BRADLEY: Yes there has been. We still have a long ways to go, but we know that 70 percent of adults who are currently experiencing mental health problems began to experience the first symptoms as youth. But yet, many of them did not go for help at the right time and also those who did, several, about half of them drop out of the system when they become an emerging adult. That funny age where between 16 and 18 or longer, that you are neither a youth nor an adult and the system simply is not set up to handle that. And so, even those who are getting help, we are losing them in that time frame.

AMT: Now young people can be treated by a psychologist but for the most part those visits aren't even covered by the health system are they?

LOUISE BRADLEY: That's correct. The Canadian Psychology Association has been trying to change that now for some time. I mean we have a large contingent of extremely capable, well-trained people, but only those that can afford to pay privately or have insurance can access those services, which is really quite unfortunate, because as I mentioned we do need an investment and that's certainly one area that could help to ease this bottleneck.

AMT: In other words if the individual governments would just change their coverage plan so than there would be more professionals available because they're already there, in other words.

LOUISE BRADLEY: They are already there, certainly. They're able to provide school-based mental health programs. I mean, the thing is, it's a very complex issue and it isn't just a health issue. It's education, it's housing, it's justice and school-based mental health programs set up properly can actually help to prevent people from ever having to enter the system in the first place. So this is about prevention, care and post pension afterwards.

AMT: And you know I was just talking to two people who were talking about the difficulties in a city the size of Toronto, what about smaller communities in Canada or more isolated communities?

LOUISE BRADLEY: That's certainly a different set of problems, but they are equally as serious. And this is where I think we are going to need more innovative approaches and the use of technology through e-mental health program is something that I think we're going to have to see more of because in particular our youth can respond to that. They aren't going to sit in a waiting room, similar to people my age would have done. I think we need to change the way in which we are delivering services. Walk-in clinics are fine for metropolitan urban areas but as you mentioned in rural settings, that probably is not going to be the case. So we really have to rethink how we are going to provide these services.

AMT: Okay Louise Bradley thanks for your time today.

LOUISE BRADLEY: You're very welcome, thank you.

AMT: Louise Bradley President and CEO of the Mental Health Commission of Canada she joined us from Ottawa. We did request an interview with the Federal Health Minister Jane Phipott, she was not available. She did send us a statement that reads in part “Access to mental health services including wait times is a critical issue and that is why it is among the shared health priorities I am discussing with provinces and territories as we negotiate a new health accord”. That coming from Jane Philpot ,the Federal Minister of Health. We want to hear from you. Have you had trouble getting access to mental health care for your child or when you were a minor? Let us know what happened. Weigh in by tweeting us @thecurrentcbc. You can also e-mail us your thoughts by clicking on the contact link cbc.ca/thecurrent. You can also post a comment on the segment on our Facebook page.

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Guatemala verdict sets precedent for sexual assault as war crime

Guests: Amy Bracken, Luz Mendez, Widney Brown

SOUNDCLIP

[clapping and cheering]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: The sound of celebration in a packed courtroom last Friday after a Guatemalan Supreme Court judge convicted two former military officers of criminal actions that sanctioned sexual violence as a war crime. They were sentenced to a total of 360 years for sexual assault and slavery charges that date back to specific incidents in the 1980s during the country's decades-long civil war. The brutal crimes were against 15 Mayan women from the tiny hamlet of Sepur Zarco. The case is gaining international attention because this is the first time a domestic court has prosecuted and convicted anyone for sexual violence as a war crime. Amy Bracken is a freelance reporter who's covered this case. She was in the courtroom when that verdict was handed down and she joins us now in Quetzaltenango, Guatemala. Hello, Amy.

AMY BRACKEN: Hello, thanks for having me.

AMT: We don’t usually hear an outbreak of applause like that in a courtroom. What was it like? What was going on?

AMY BRACKEN: Well, the support was overwhelming for the women from the beginning. Long lines, and many days to get into the courtroom, completely packed courtroom, in the last couple of days. Overwhelmingly female audience and mostly, in traditional Mayan dress, people came in from all over the country. People were pretty good, pretty quiet listening to the proceedings. Every once in a while there would be groans when there'd be a certain comment from the Defense, but the celebrating was very loud and long lasting and the judge at one point asked people to quiet down a little bit, but it continued outside afterwards.

AMT: Well, tell us a bit more about the case. Who are these women, what happened to them?

AMY BRACKEN: What was interesting just now was to hear a CBC report about land deed issues in Canada because that's just where this started. So, it was at the height of the civil war, the early eighties, which was really the bloodiest part of the war. A lot of what was going on-- there were disputes over land titles throughout. But, in this particular area there was a group of men who had been working on their land, living on their land with their families for generations and they just wanted the deeds to make sure that they didn't get the land taken away from them. The larger land owners in the area who wanted access to their land were well connected with the military and so they in the military pegged these men as Marxist rebels who had, they claimed, the military was claiming, had committed atrocities themselves, that marked these rebels more broadly. So, these men were targeted. They allegedly were taken to this military base at Sepur Zarco, they were jailed, they were killed and then the women were targeted. So, a number of these women, 11 of the women were allegedly taken to the base and made to be slaves. They were forced to cook and clean for the people staying at the base and they were regularly raped. Four others escaped into the mountains where they lived in horrible conditions with their children. A number of their children allegedly died under these circumstances. Some of them actually escaped with their husbands as well, but then were caught. Husbands killed and raped and so it was a combination of terror involving a lot of sexual violence and sexual slavery of the women and husbands.

AMT: And who were the men convicted?

AMY BRACKEN: The men convicted are Lieutenant Colonel Esteelmer Reyes Giron, who got 120 years in jail, 30 for crimes against humanity which are the sexual slavery and sexual abuse charges. 90 more, 30 apiece for the murder of one woman and her two daughters. And the other is former military Commissioner Heriberto Valdez Asij, who got 240 years, 30 also for the crimes against humanity, the sexual violence and slavery and 210 for what is called the forced disappearance of seven men. And so, six of those men were husbands of the women testifying and there was more who was allegedly also murdered in [indecipherable] circumstances.

AMT: What did the judge say to the women in her ruling?

AMY BRACKEN: She said in her ruling, and she had indicated earlier, that she believed them. What she suggested throughout was that they were not prostitutes as had been suggested by the Defense, that this was a horrible crime that they had endured, some for up to six years, that this was a tool of war, that they had been persecuted, that they had been demeaned. The women's groups who were speaking on behalf of the women talked about just how denigrated this population was. These are women who are from a very remote area, none of them spoke any Spanish, they had an interpreter the whole time. Generally, it's been a country where up until very recently there has been a huge widespread fear of speaking out against the government and speaking out against the military, particularly among this group. For this group of women to be heard was inspiring and remarkable and the judge made it very clear that they're being heard and believed.

AMT: After the verdict, you spoke today to the defense lawyer Fidencia Orozco de la Cardi. Let's listen to what she told you.

SOUNDCLIP

Look, yes it is positive if we have impartial judges. But since we don’t see that impartiality, I would say that the international presence and attention biases the judges and that prevents them from reaching a just verdict

AMT: Amy Bracken, is she going to appeal this verdict?

AMY BRACKEN: Yes, the verdict is going to be appealed. From the very start, the defense team has been saying that there has been a bias from day one. And I mean, you could see that the support in the courtroom was overwhelmingly in favour of the women as well as international support. The US ambassador had shown up for some of the trial and he had tweeted his support for the trial itself, which was seen as his expression of support for the women. The international attention from human rights organizations has largely been perceived as supporting the women. So, that's what she was getting at in terms of the international attention and the concern that that was affecting the Judge’s rule.

AMT: Okay, because there was there was another war crime appeal in Guatemala, former general Efrain Rios Montt appealed and actually had his conviction overturned, did he not?

AMY BRACKEN: They had declared a retrial so he is in jail right now awaiting that. That was one of the defense attorneys involved in that case as well and used a lot of similar tactics in terms of trying to block or hold the proceedings and feed inflaming bias. The people that I've spoken to who support the women seem very positive and very confident that this will work out in the end but, yeah there definitely just seems be a possibility that could be overturned.

AMT: Okay, well thank you for—

AMY BRACKEN: Especially for the—

AMT: Thank you for all of this information, Amy. Thank you.

AMY BRACKEN: Okay, thank you.

AMT: We’ve got a bit of a delay on that Skype line. That's Amy Bracken, freelance reporter. She covered the Sepur Zarco trial in Guatemala. Luz Mendez is on the Executive Board of the National Union of Guatemala Women, which is a union that was one of the plaintiffs in this case. She's also the author of Clamor for Justice, she chronicled the Sepur Zarco sexual assaults during the civil war. She was involved in bringing the war crimes case to trial and she joins us from her home in Guatemala City. Hello.

Luz Mendez: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: How significant is this verdict?

LUZ MENDEZ: This verdict has special significance. First of all, because this is the first one addressed in Guatemalan courts and centred on sexual violence against women. Meaning we have had some older cases of [indecipherable] justice, but this is the first one that is specifically aimed at getting justice for women who were victims of rape during the war. So, with the verdict we achieved the victims are paving the way for other women who suffered the same human rights violations during the war. And I’m sure it also sets an important precedent internationally in a world where rape continues to be used as a weapon of war. I would also like to highlight the significance of this case comes from the fact that the big themes are indigenous women living in very extreme poor conditions so they are the most oppressed Guatemalan population.

AMT: I was really struck by the fact that I was reading that they're in their 50s and 70s now. This crime is 30 years old and I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea that for 30 years they lived with what was done to them right through their lives.

LUZ MENDEZ: Yes, it was the bonding of having those memories. The consequences of sexual violence was extremely hard for them because for all of these years, they have had to keep it silent because they were afraid if they broke the silence, the consequences would be very hard for them and their families. So, it was only through a long road of gender organizing, of organizing in groups made only by women, of being a part of alliances with women and human rights organisations. But, it was possible for them to break that silence and begin to think of looking for justice for those crimes.

AMT: Well, in fact your organization and others fanned out across the country and provided support over time, right? This was a long process to convince them to come forward.

LUZ MENDEZ: It was a long process, exactly. It is important to see this verdict not only in the judicial part, but in the very beginning. This process began in 2003 and in the beginning several women’s organizations and human rights organizations wanted to bring to the surface, to the public attention, the horrible crimes committed against women during the war. Those crimes were stated by the Report of the Truth Commission. However, those crimes were kept in complete silence and impunity so this process begun as a process of getting a woman’s statement by the women victims and for this, it was instrumental, the support of providing psycho-social activities, healing activities including the Mayan traditions and of course, a process of reflection. The process of understanding is that those women were not guilty of the sexual violence committed against them as is usually thought in these types of cases. And of course, during all these years of silence, the women were seen as guilty by the community. The women were ostracized in their own communities, so the moment when a result of all this reflection, of all this understanding of women’s rights and the structural causes of the violence they suffered, that moment when the victims understood that it was the army that was guilty of those crimes, because war—

AMT: I want to ask about the army because there are two military officers who have been found guilty, but we're talking about testimony that talked about gang rapes by 15 soldiers, we're talking about a number of soldiers on that base abusing these women. Are there going to be other trials? What about the people who were under those officers?

LUZ MENDEZ: Well, it is the responsibility of the public prosecution office to continue the investigation. You are right, in this trial, a lot of names have come forward, names of soldiers, names of military officers, names of land owners, so this particular trial is over but the door is open to continue investigating the responsibility of all the people involved in the crimes

AMT: How much of this trial was due to the political will to see it happen?

LUZ MENDEZ: This trial, first of all, is the result of the women’s commitment to achieve justice and this trial is [indecipherable] as I’ve already mentioned. But also, it is the result of some changes in the judicial system even though this system is still highly penetrated by criminal organizations. There are people who have played a very important role. For example, the foreman chief of the public prosecution office and the current one, they played an important role committing themselves in bringing justice to these women. There are also judges like the ones who presided the tribunal of the Sepur Zarco case that they go against the trine of the justice. The role of these judiciary people played a very important role also in achieving this conviction.

AMT: Okay, well Luz Mendez thank you for speaking with me today.

LUZ MENDEZ: You are very welcome.

AMT: Luz Mendez on the Executive Board of the National Union of Guatemala Women. She wrote a book about this, it’s called Clamor for Justice. She joined us from Guatemala City. Well, people around the world are hoping this case will prompt similar prosecutions, especially in neighbouring countries that have also experienced civil war. Widney Brown is the Director of Programs at Physicians for Human Rights. She has been a senior director for international law at Amnesty International, she's worked with Human Rights Watch and she is in New York. Hi.

WIDNEY BROWN: Good morning.

AMT: So, you have worked with a number of organizations that have worked towards trying to find justice for some of these cases. What was your reaction when you heard the verdict?

WIDNEY BROWN: Well, it's very positive and I think one of the things that's really interesting is most successful prosecutions for crimes of sexual violence has happened in international tribunals such as the tribunal for the former Yugoslavia Rwanda. For a domestic court to take on these prosecutions and particularly get people with command responsibility is quite remarkable.

AMT: And how much of that is due to political conditions? What's going on politically in the country that allowed that to happen?

WIDNEY BROWN: Well, it's interesting because President Morales has actually stepped up and said that he supports initiatives for justice, not revenge. I think it's an important message that justice is important and it cannot be justice that is skewed or biased, which would be the revenge element. But, as the previous person mentioned, the role women have played generally speaking in coming forth, and their courage, and their demands for justice, is also a critical element.

AMT: So, in other words the organizations, and there were several, that actually spent time in the field working with the women who had been victimized, is really key?

WIDNEY BROWN: Exactly.

AMT: And so, if you're going to see other countries prosecute like that, you have to see that kind of a grassroots effort, do you?

WIDNEY BROWN: Yes, combined with some level of political will and a justice system that has sort of your due processes and fair trial standards in place. I think the next place to really monitor will be Columbia. As you know, they've entered into a peace process which has taken several years. From the beginning, women in Colombia argued for a place at the table of the peace negotiations, and it took quite a long time. But as those are being finalized, about one third of the representatives in the negotiations are women. Still not half, but that's quite remarkable, and if women are there, think about how you build a sustainable peace. These are often the voices also demanding justice.

AMT: You mention peace agreements. Often there is immunity in peace agreements, is there not?

WIDNEY BROWN: Absolutely. I think that there is a tendency always to think that if either peace or justice, and as a result of conflicts being resolved, there is almost always an offer, at least at the domestic level, for amnesty. This protects people from prosecutions. I think that what we have seen is, those amnesties over time often get lifted, or they do not apply in internationalized settings. So, we argue as a human rights organization that it's not peace versus justice, in fact if you have a peace where what you say is we're just going to paper over all the atrocities that happened in the past, people feel like they do need revenge and often that creates a cycle of violence rather than resolution, which is people feel like the pain and loss that they suffered is recognized and they see somebody who is accountable being held accountable.

AMT: In what other Latin American countries could this be an issue?

WIDNEY BROWN: Well, it's rough because several countries of course had longstanding conflicts. Colombia is the longest but Guatemala’s was 36 years. Both of them are relatively resource rich countries, and as you know, there was a civil war in El Salvador right next to Guatemala, extremely poor and we're really seeing no initiatives there. I think one of the things to also think about is, there's a women's rights activist from the former Yugoslavia who a couple years after the end of that war said, there is no peace time for women. One of things that's really remarkable is the number of countries in Latin America that have some of the highest rates of murder of women where they are targeted because they are women. El Salvador is actually the highest. In a 2011 study, Guatemala comes in third, Honduras is on the list, Columbia is on the list, Bolivia is on the list. So, I think it's really also tackling the creation of a very violent environment, even post-conflict.

AMT: We say this is being watched around the world, well beyond Latin America. You look at the war in Congo for example, where the sexual brutality is--I was going to say it's off the charts, but it's off the charts in lots of places. Are there lessons for countries, elsewhere?

WIDNEY BROWN: I think so. We actually do quite a lot of work in Eastern Congo and Physicians for Human Rights really helps build up the evidentiary basis. There is a perception that it's impossible, particularly on crimes of sexual violence, to find evidence long after the crime was committed. Whereas, an enforced disappearance, if you find a body and a cause of death, it's an easier case to make. But, we've really done groundbreaking work working with doctors and other clinicians in Eastern Congo, documenting both the physical and the psychological indicators of crimes of sexual violence. That has led to, it’s just at the beginning, but domestic courts actually taking on this case. So, I think you need political will, you need an engaged women's rights community, you need a criminal justice system that has some, that’s not just utterly corrupt and morally bankrupt, and you need to start really pushing for evidence based prosecutions and investigations.

AMT: It's interesting also that there is this move toward domestic courts as opposed to international tribunals.

WIDNEY BROWN: I think partly that's been disappointment with the International Criminal Court. It has yet to successfully prosecute any crimes of sexual violence despite the Rome Statute being quite groundbreaking in enumerating all this. Obviously, the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda tribunals were more successful, but I think there's a sense that justice is local, that people need to see it being done in the country where the crimes happen, and a recognition that even if it becomes very successful, The International Criminal Court will only try a very few cases. As I said, it's not got a great track record right now despite the prosecutor saying that she's committed to pursuing these crimes.

AMT: Okay, well Widney Brown, thanks for your thoughts on this.

WIDNEY BROWN: Thank you.

AMT: Widney Brown, Director of Programs at Physicians for Human Rights. She joined us from New York. What do you think about this? Let us know. You can weigh in on this very important trial, a precedent setter for domestic trial on war crimes and sexual abuse as a weapon of war. If you're just joining us, you can download our podcast to hear our conversation cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link, email us your thoughts on this. You can tweet us, we are @thecurrentcbc. You can find us on Facebook as well.

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Muslim voter supports Trump for his economic policies

Guests: Saba Ahmed, Michelle Shephard

AMT: Hello, I’m Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: A lot of what he's saying, people may consider that brash but that's only because it's so refreshing.

VOICE 2: Lots of people have asked me, surely she questioned your visits, but she didn’t. She was vulnerable, she was lonely, she was so happy to have somebody finally listen to her.

VOICE 3: So I had type one, which is the least invasive, which is what he's advocating for. And the bottom line is it's harmful, I blocked out the memory because it was so traumatic. If I could choose to be diagnosed younger I for sure would, not even just the grades but that self-confidence, that self-esteem of feeling like I wasn't really like the other kids or smart enough, that would have been explained.

AMT: Just a taste of the week that was on The Current. To help us go through your tweets, your posts, your emails I'm joined by our Friday host; Michelle Shephard is the national security reporter for the Toronto Star. She joins me in our Toronto studio. Welcome back.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Thank you for having me back.

AMT: You came back after last week, that’s a good sign. We wanted you back.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: I decided your job was quite hard.

AMT: Well, I'm glad you're here to do tomorrow, but let's get to it today. Super Tuesday in the US has come and gone with Donald Trump moving ahead in his bid to become the Republican presidential nominee. Well the former reality TV star is a polarizing figure. He has managed to secure a broader range of support than most pundits thought he would. Monday on The Current, we heard from a group of Donald Trump supporters including Carlo Maffett, a Mexican board, Texas-based entrepreneur.

SOUNDCLIP

The only way to, in some ways, destroy the party and build it again is to have an independent, somebody from the outside, to come and start operation. I think he’s the only opportunity that right now, is available to us.

AMT: After that segment aired we received so much feedback that we thought we should talk to another Donald Trump supporter. Saba Ahmed is the founder of the Republican Muslim Coalition. She joins us from Washington DC. Hello.

SABA AHMED: Hi.

AMT: Why do you support Donald Trump?

SABA AHMED: I believe he has the business skills to turn the economy around. We have a severe budget crisis and I think we need a Washington outsider to come and shake things up and hopefully change the downhill momentum in Washington.

AMT: Now you know Mr. Trump has said that as president he would implement a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the US until the US representatives can figure out what is going on. Do you support that?

SABA AHMED: Definitely not. I don't think that sort of religious discrimination ban can ever be implemented because it's unconstitutional and it violates several federal laws and statutes. I don't ever see Congress passing such a law. And we’ll definitely be lobbying against such absurd policies if it does ever come up. I'm not too concerned about that, but we are all very concerned about the national security situation in terms of the refugees, we believe that they can better assimilate in their neighbouring Arab countries. We should help as much as the can, I just don't think that bringing them the all the way to the US is the best solution. So therefore I think that's where the policies are stemming from, but I definitely disagree with the complete ban on Muslims.

AMT: And yet that is really part of his platform, he talks about it all the time and you are an observant Muslim.

SABA AHMED: Yes. And that's what we are hoping to lobby him against. We have reached out to his campaign and we hope to change his mind by the end of his presidential race. And I'm very hopeful that he will change his perspective.

AMT: And why are you hopeful? What has his campaign told you?

SABA AHMED: I’ve been in talks with his campaign, I've spoken to his campaign manager and we're hoping to host Donald Trump at a mosque later in the next few months. I think Donald Trump wants some of the Muslim-American votes, just like any other presidential candidate so he will be changing his rhetoric and he will definitely change his perspective on that because he knows it’s very unconstitutional. I think he has tried to double down on his ban but sadly the political climate in America is very anti-Islamic, and so he's targeting the base that is very fearful and scared of terrorists and sadly he is playing on those fears. But we hope to change that and we definitely don't ever see that becoming a law.

AMT: It's not about refugees he said, a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States. He’s not talking about refugees. He’s talking about all Muslims.

SABA AHMED: Right. I mean he can come up with whichever absurd policies he wants but in order for a law to be enacted it has to pass constitutional tests. We have freedom of religion in the United States, that's a First Amendment principle, he can’t change the Constitution. I mean there's several Muslims coming in from all over the world, especially from South Asia and the Middle East, I don't think that that's possible. And definitely I think Muslims need to engage with this campaign and get on his cabinet if he is ever elected so he does not make absurd policies. I think it shows his ignorance of Islam and Muslims when he speaks about us. And I think with Donald Trump, since he’s changing the rules of the game, I think it's a great opportunity for Muslim-Americans to get involved and change his policies.

AMT: Is it true you used to be a Democrat?

SABA AHMED: I did. Yes I became Republican in 2011, after realizing a lot of the Democratic policies conflicted with my faith. I’m very much pro-life, pro-business, trade, pro-traditional family values, things that I really believed in I felt that they conflicted with the Democratic Party.

AMT: And yet Mr. Trump has made it clear that your religion conflicts with American values, in his view.

SABA AHMED: Right. That's where I disagree with him because I think American values are very much Islamic values in terms of their very much pro-traditional family values, traditional marriage, pro-life, pro-business, trade, things that the Muslim community really cares about are supposed to align with the Republican Party. But sadly the anti-Islamic rhetoric coming from the GOP candidates has led a lot of Muslims away from the party. 70 per cent of our community actually voted for Bush back in 2000. I think we need to bring back the Muslim-American voters to the Republican Party and hopefully change the policies that have been hurting this country.

AMT: There's a picture of you online, you're wearing an American flag as a hijab. What's the statement; why do you do that?

SABA AHMED: I think I'm a proud American, it's not so much any particular statement, it's more I just want people to know that we're proud Americans and proud Muslims. There's no conflict in the two. This is my country, this is my land, and I feel like I should be able to express my patriotism in any way I choose to do so.

AMT: What reaction do you get when you tell other Muslims, your friends, your family, that you support Donald Trump?

SABA AHMED: There are a whole range of reactions. I think a lot of people are fearful because Donald Trump comes across as a very anti-Islamic person. But I think it's only because he's being advised by anti-Muslim advisors. And if he were to actually get educated on Islam and use his business expertise, he has done business with Muslims all his life. He has several properties all over the Middle East. He's worked with Muslims, he knows we’re good people, and I think if he can go back to that and use his better judgment about Islam and Muslims I think he can win a lot of the Muslim community vote. I'm supporting him based on his economic policies, I feel like he's the better candidate out of all of the other ones in terms of turning things around for Washington. Yes he has some absurd ideas and he has offended a few different communities, it's not just the Muslim communities. But he is winning a lot of the primaries and we can't afford to ignore his campaign. He very likely will be the Republican nominee and has a good shot at winning back the White House.

AMT: So in other words, as long as the economy is good, that kind of anger toward an identifiable religious group is okay with you as a member of that identifiable religious group?

SABA AHMED: No it's definitely not okay, but I think he is open to influence. And before he gets into the office, we still have about eight months to go, I think that the opportunity for Muslims to get involved with this campaign and influence his foreign policies.

AMT: Okay. Saba Ahmed, thank you for sharing your perspective with us.

SABA AHMED: Thank you for having me.

AMT: Saba Ahmed is the founder of the Republican Muslim Coalition; she joined us from Washington DC.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: And let's move on.

AMT: Yes let's move on.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: On Monday we heard from Phyllis Whitsell, a nurse who tracked down and cared for her birth mother without revealing her true identity.

SOUNDCLIP

The first time I met her she just talked. She was desperately wanting somebody to talk to and within minutes she mentioned Phyllis, the little girl she had to leave at the orphanage. And that broke my heart because I knew how troubled she was by what she had to go through in her life and there I was in front of her, her daughter. That was one of the hardest times not to tell her and fling my arms around her and say I'm here mom, I’m here to care for you now.

AMT: Many of our listeners were touched by this story. Gillian Threadgold of Port McNeil, BC, says she found her birth mother in Australia. She writes, “I am still a 'secret' to my birthmother's husband and children. And that's the way my birthmother wants to keep it. I feel sorry that I will never know my half-brothers and sister and that they will never know I exist. I’m sure today they would accept my mother's illegitimate child, but I’ll never get that chance.”

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Jane Blannin-Bruleigh writes from Little Current, Ontario, “Like your guest, my adoptive parents also had the 'don't talk about this' attitude. But there was good news. At the same time I discovered my birthmother had died I also discovered I had a younger sister, also placed for adoption. And we met about a year later. Finally, someone who looked like me and had a lot of similarities. Now as an adoptive parent of two beautiful girls, who are now young women, I have taken a much more open approach to birthparents, valuing them as family members, even though we are not able to know them.

AMT: On to another story. Tuesday we aired a story about ADHD, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Mental health experts say girls are being underdiagnosed or misdiagnosed in childhood. This can lead to mental health issues in adulthood.

SOUNDCLIP

The anxiety that comes from feeling out of control and also feeling judged socially can escalate to the point where for girls, you don't go out and harm others or make a ruckus like boys, but you harm yourself. So, there's a great deal more cutting, there's a great deal more eating disorders, substance disorders and suicide attempts.

AMT: Well that’s Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and author, Katherine Ellison. She was diagnosed with ADHD in her late 40s. We received an overwhelming response to this story.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Clare Atwell writes, “Until my diagnosis my life had actually been very confusing. Things did not add up. I now view my ADHD as a gift and a curse. What I notice is that when we start to talk about these kids as people who have challenges in a world set up for neurotypicals, and that rather than being broken they simply have a different way of processing the world, then there is a shift. Typically, when approached from this perspective the difficulties and home stress start to settle down and self-esteem and success follows.”

AMT: Marjory Bryce of Ottawa writes, “I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was 65 years old. I was gob-smacked;” she writes, “It explained a life-time of struggle. My doctor said, ‘I can't believe you managed a career!’

My experience might help others. I was highly motivated in school. But, to stay focused at a desk I had to find physical stimulation. I ripped my cuticles, chewed the inside of my mouth 'til it bled, and pulled out my hair. To get my homework done, I had to wear my brother's football helmet and wear gloves.”

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Kendra Scarrott from Vernon, BC shared her journey, “Diagnosed with ADHD at 28, I was finally able to strip myself of the beliefs that I was an underachiever, lazy, immature and different in a bad way. The diagnosis allowed me to take control of my life and leverage my behaviours to work for me rather than fight against them by just ‘trying harder.’ Thank you for shedding light on this misunderstood struggle.” The story of undiagnosed ADHD also resonated on social media. Rachelle L. Todd posted on Facebook, “I am so happy to hear this being addressed. When I was 35, I was diagnosed with ADHD. I remember that moment, crying at the realization, and my entire life came before my eyes.”

AMT: Lauren Bachand-Penner was diagnosed at 23 years old. She posts,

“It was life altering for me. I was misdiagnosed with depression and anxiety and continually labeled as lazy throughout my childhood and teenage years. Treatment for these things was never very successful.

In hindsight, I can look at events that screamed ADHD, but somehow, I didn't get a second glance because I didn't have the same symptoms as my diagnosed brothers who were always loud and bouncing off the walls!”

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: And here's one last thought from Renata Lang. She tweeted, “I myself have dealt with the repercussions of a late ADHD diagnosis. Thankfully I have found fields that celebrated my gift of gab.

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Doctor develops alternative rite of passage without female genital mutilation

Guests: Michelle Shephard, Dr. Githinji Gitahi

AMT: Well last week we heard about a controversial solution to female genital mutilation, a practice which alters or injures female genitalia that for many cultures is seen as the rite of passage to womanhood for young girls.

SOUNDCLIP

What we're proposing is that forms of genital female rituals that do not cause harm, be permitted under the law. We're talking principally about a procedure in which the outside of the vagina, the vulva, is nicked with a lancet or a needle, a cut that's maybe a millimeter in length, that is expected to heal completely and rapidly, leaving no scarring, no sexual problems, no reproductive problems and no residual pain.

AMT: Well that was New York gynecologist, Dr. Allan Jacobs, the co-author of, Female Genital Alteration: A Compromise Solution. While FGM is illegal in Canada and has been globally condemned as a human rights violation, in many parts of the world the practice continues to exist. One organization is helping communities in countries such as Kenya, Ethiopia, and Tanzania to break free of the cultural ritual. Dr. Githinji Gitahi is the CEO of Amref Health Africa and we’ve reached him in Nairobi, Kenya. Hello.

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Hello, Anna Maria.

AMT: The FGM alternative that your organization promotes is called, Alternative Rite of Passage. Can you tell me about it?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Yes. The Alternative Rite of Passage is a tool that was developed by Amref Health Africa because we realized that even after the UN declaration of female genital mutilation as violence against women, communities were still continuing to practice it. And even after governments put a law against it, they started doing it in hiding. So we went out to the community because we are generally a health development organization and wanted to know why communities are still doing it. We found that it is hard to do with obviously the fact that the community has co-organized the importance of the rite of passage of the girl from girlhood to womanhood. So we came up with an alternative which is co-created with the communities which we called, The Alternative Rite of Passage. This allows the girl to go through girlhood to womanhood but without a cut. So that removes the negative effect of FGM, which is the cut on the female genitalia. But they go through all the cultural steps they would otherwise do before the female genital cutting or circumcision as they call it. And therefore they are safe and we work with the community to create that alternative. And it has many rituals of training the girls, having them sleep over night with their aunties, they’re talked to about their sexual reproductive health, then they go through being talked to by the elders, then they go through a graduation on a particular date where the community cooks and plays music and celebrates them. And they graduate without the cut and their colonized as women.

AMT: So there's absolutely nothing surgical at all, not even a tiny nick, as the doctor we just heard explains.

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Absolutely nothing at all. We don't advocate for any interference or any cutting or nicking of female genitalia because it has no medical benefit.

AMT: Okay. So you say there's a day of celebration, what kind of rituals do they go through?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Their communities have certain rituals, they do. Some of them will paint the girls on their face; some of them will shave their heads. So this allows all these rituals to go through. And some of them are physical, some are visual. But we say, do not cut. But all the other rituals including snipping the hair, painting on the face, then the girls passing under an arch created by young men, we allow them to go through that arch so they feel they have passed from girlhood to womanhood but no cut at all.

AMT: And how old are these girls?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Majority of the girls who graduate through this process are between eight and eleven years.

AMT: Is it time to coincide with the start of the menstrual cycle or is it more symbolic?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: It is varied from community to community. There are communities that do the female genital cutting at a very tender age. Research shows it starts all the way from infancy. But the average age globally and in Africa is ten years old. Now the reason the average age is ten years is because many communities wait for the girls to start their puberty. So they look for the breasts. When a girl starts to grow breasts, they’ll say, this girl now needs to be prepared for their role and the responsibility of womanhood, which could be more responsibility at home and eventually marriage. So they lookout for those signs like breasts, maybe the menstrual cycle, but each community has its own threshold for entering into the age group for FGM.

AMT: How receptive are the girls to this new alternative practice?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: We have now been working with a particular community for the last four years called the My Faith Community in Kenya and also flowing into the border of Tanzania. Over this period we have graduated about 9,000 young girls through this Alternative Rite of Passage. These girls, after they graduate, some of them have grown to go to school and they have become married. You see initially the biggest objection to ending this practice was that the young men will not agree to marry a girl who has not undergone female genital cutting. But now we are seeing that societies have accepted this. The biggest acceptance is not even by the girl, it is by their parents, one, by the elders, two, and by the young men who eventually marry them.

AMT: So the rest of the community is agreeing to this as well?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Yes, we have engaged the community. It’s not been easy. It's been a process of identifying ambassadors in the community looking for elders converting their views, looking for young men converting their views. And then we use them. Those who have agreed to change their perspective; we then send them to talk to women. The women are the ones who do the circumcisions, so we send them to talk to women to abandon the practice. So it's a whole societal revolution. It doesn't rotate around the girl. And yes there is acceptance, which is why we have managed to graduate 9,000.

AMT: And once Amref leaves the community, how do you ensure those girls aren't circumcised after that?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: The truth of the matter is we have tracked over these four years and we have a relapse rate of about ten to fifteen per cent. So out of all the girls who graduate, ten per cent still sneak back and end up undergoing circumcision. This is likely because their parents convince them to go through it because they fear the shame of the community looking at them as parents of a girl who hasn’t gone through this process. So some of them still lapse back and that rate has been going down with the work that we continue to do because we reside in the community. We don't do it and leave. Our workers, our people who do this are ambassadors who reside in the community. But there’s a relapse rate of about 10 per cent.

AMT: And is there any way you can kind of spot that ahead of time?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Yes. We have two ways of looking at this. Number one, the last time I met a young girl, which was when we were doing a big graduation, ten year-old girl who had just graduated through this Alternative Rite of Passage and I told her, let's talk. I invited her for a chat and we talked and she told me the reason the girls go back is because their parents tell them to go back. Despite the girl having gone through the training, the girls feel not empowered enough to ask their parents the question, why, when their parents insist they go. So we have two options. One is that we have to include the anti-FGM messages in the school curriculum early enough and we have talked to the Kenyan government now and the curriculum development unit of the government of the ministry and they have agreed to include anti-FGM messages in the school curriculum. This will mean that by the time the girl gets to that age they would have been empowered enough through education in school to say to their parents, the teacher said this is wrong. Why do you want me to go through it? So that's one. The next one is to continue working with communities as we do because it's not an overnight thing. So we have seen the rates coming down. But it's going to take time and it is taking time but we are succeeding. And we've seen the prevalence of FGM now come down; in Kenya now it’s 21 per cent. Four years ago it was 37 per cent.

AMT: You make the point that some of these girls are already married in your programs, gone on for four years, and they started young as eight to eleven. So these girls are getting married young.

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: They're getting married extremely young, as early as eight years.

AMT: So I'm guessing that's also part of the problem then, right? The older they might be before marriage, the more empowered they can be about how their bodies are seen by others.

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: That is the reason why we must delay so that they get more and more empowered and they go to school and once they go to school they get exposure and able to ask why. So it's coupled with education, you can’t do it on its own. You have to educate the community and educate the girl.

AMT: Dr. Gitahi, thank you for taking us through this.

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Thank you very much.

AMT: That is Dr. Githinji Gitahi who is the CEO of Amref Health Africa. He joined us from Nairobi, Kenya.

[Music: upbeat]

AMT: Time to give credit where credit is due. This week The Current was produced by: Idella Sturino, Howard Goldenthal, Ines Colabrese, Julian Uzielli, Sarah Grant, Pacinthe Mattar, Sujata Berry, Liz Hoath, Marc Appollonio, Leif Zapf-Gilje, Catherine Colflesh, Julia Pagel, Shanifa Nasser, Kinsey Clark, John Chipman, Willow Smith, Karin Marley, Ruby Buiza and Rana Sowdaey.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: And a special thanks to The Current’s network producer in Vancouver, Anne Penman, and freelance producer Aden Hassan Tarah.

AMT: The Current’s writer is Shannon Higgins. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso. Our technician is Jennifer Rowley. Our senior documentary editor is Joan Webber. Our senior producers are Richard Goddard in Toronto, and Cathy Simon in Vancouver. And the executive producer of The Current is Kathleen Goldhar.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Well, now we want to hear from you. Weigh in by tweeting us @TheCurrentCBC. And if you want to join the conversation about our season-long project Ripple Effect, make sure to use the hashtag “rippleCBC.”

AMT: You can also e-mail us your thoughts by clicking on the contact link at www.cbc.ca/TheCurrent, post a comment on our segments on our Facebook page. Now, Michelle Shephard, what are you working on tomorrow?

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: I'm looking very forward to speaking with Scott Shane. He's a New York Times reporter and author of Objective Troy, which is a terrific book that just won the Lionel Gelber award this week. We will be talking drones, Obama, and propaganda.

AMT: This is your wheel house drones, and security, and trouble.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: I feel comfortable in this field, yes.

AMT: Okay, well Michelle Shephard we’ll be listening. Michelle Shephard is the National Security reporter with the Toronto Star; she is this week's Friday host of The Current.

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Mar. 3, 2016 episode transcript

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