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Jan. 29, 2016 episode transcript

IN THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

[Music: theme]

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SARAH PALIN: Are you ready to America great again? This is going to be so much fun.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Well, the so-called fun is really just about to begin. The American primary season officially gets underway on Monday with the Iowa caucuses. And the 2016 US presidential election race, already full of twists turns and surprises, is bound to get crazier now that there are real votes being cast. We are starting off today by looking ahead to how the contest could unfold between now and Novemberâ€™s election day. After that, we are heading to Manitoba to discuss changes to the way certain pills are handed out.

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Theyâ€™re using it every day. Every day they're going and buying one or two or three bottles and theyâ€™re hopping between pharmacies and weâ€™ve got no way of tracking them.

PC: Well, he is a Winnipeg pharmacist describing codeine abuse. The highly addictive pain killer is available over the counter, without a prescription, across our country. But Manitoba has decided to do something about that. Starting on Monday, codeine will no longer be available without a prescription in that province. We'll find out how bold a move it really is and if it will be enough to curb abuse. Then, in an hour from now, reengaging with Iranâ€¦

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: It is through responsible, firm engagement that Canada has always had impact in the world and that is what we will continue to do in a thoughtful and responsible way.

PC: As Canada signals it will join with its allies in lifting economic sanctions against Iran, we'll talk to Iranian Canadians about what it will mean for friends and family back home. Hello, Iâ€™m Piya Chattopadhyay, and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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Republican presidential race heats up as Iowa caucuses loom

Guests: Jay Newton-Small, Matt K. Lewis, Vann R. Newkirk II

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SARAH PALIN: He is beholding to no one but we the people, how refreshing he is. He is perfectly positioned to let you make America great again. No more pussy footing around! Our troops deserve the best, you deserve the best!

DONALD TRUMP: I don't have a lot of respect for Megyn Kelly, she's a lightweight, and she came out there reading her little script and trying to be tough and be sharp. She starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions and you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes. Blood coming out of herâ€¦ wherever.

VOICE 1: And let me tell you, this race in Iowa, it's now neck and neck. And I'll tell you right now that's why Donald's not shown up. Has nothing to do with Megyn Kelly and some questions he asked her back in August. I extend an invitation to Donald, if you don't trust me, then let's you and I have a one on one debate. 90 minutes, you and me mano-a-mano, and if that scares you, then we can do an Iowa Town Hall.

VOICE 2: I kind of missed Donald Trump, he was a little teddy bear to me. We always had such a loving relationship in these debates.

VOICE 3: Chris, I would note that the last four questions have been Rand, please attack Ted, Marco please attack Ted, Chris please attack Ted, Jeb please attack Ted [audience booing]. Let me just say thisâ€¦

VOICE 4: It is a debate, sir.

PC: Well, that was just a bit of the fury on the right in the lead up to this year's Republican convention. The race to lead the Republican and Democratic tickets, and ultimately win the White House, has already been one of the wildest we have seen in years. But in many ways it's only just getting started because the Iowa caucuses are set to take place on Monday. To help us understand what is going on in these races for the US Presidency we're joined by three political observers. Jay Newton-Small is the Washington correspondent for Time Magazine. Her new book is called, Broad Influence: How Women are Changing the Way America Works. She's in Clive, Iowa. Matt K. Lewis is a conservative journalist and his new book is called, Too Dumb to Fail: How the GOP Betrayed the Reagan Revolution to Win Elections and How it Can Reclaim Its Conservative Roots. He's in Washington, DC. And Vann R. Newkirk II is a staff writer at Daily Kos, he's in Atlanta, Georgia. Hello everyone.

JAY NEWTON-SMALL: Hi, Piya.

MATT K. LEWIS: Hi.

VANN R. NEWKIRK II: Hey.

PC: Okay, Jay, there you are in Iowa at the center of this story right now, what is the political temperature as caucus day approaches come Monday?

JAY NEWTON-SMALL: It is literally a circus. I went and watched Donald Trump last night give a rally that was at the exact same time as the debate that was happening down the road. I really have never seen anything like it. Not only was Donald Trump there, but there were two other presidential candidates there, Rick Santorum, the former Pennsylvania senator, as well as Mike Huckabee, the former Arkansas Governor. They weren't endorsing Trump; they were just sort of there because Trump was and I think they wanted to share in the limelight a little bit. It was ostensibly an event for veterans, but it was also all about voting. It was certainly strange, kind of anti-establishment, anti weâ€™re not with the other crowd over at the debate, the main establishment people, weâ€™re just here doing our own thing. It was a real scene; there were four protesters that were dragged out, lots of cheering, lots of yelling, and lots of Donald Trump.

PC: And Trump said he wasn't going to the debates, this was about five minutes down the road, he holds his own event as you say. As you are in Clive, Jay, what are regular Iowans saying on the streets about Trump not being there and what's going on?

JAY NEWTON-SMALL: I mean a lot of people were really interested in that idea that, you know, that I'm not going to go to FOX News, I'm not going to go the establishment route, to some degree. I'm going to hold my own rally, I'm going to just talk to you Iowans, Iâ€™m going to talk to veterans, and so they actually really liked it in Iowa. At the same time, I was in the crowd for the entire event and I was sitting with six Iowans, or six people I should say, and none of them are going to caucus for Trump. They were just there because they were curious and they were entertained and they wanted to see a show. Or they were really diehard Trump supporters, two of them were from Pennsylvania and happened to be visiting, and really wanted to see him. So I'm not sure that all of this attention and excitement, to some degree, I mean interest in him, will translate into votes.

PC: Matt, good strategic move on Trump's part last night?

MATT K. LEWIS: I think it was. First of all, every one of these gambits ends up helping him. So until there's a backlash, my default position is that he's brilliant and that his PR stunts are smart. And I think that his competition in Iowa is Ted Cruz. And if you look at the front page of The Des Moines Register today, the headline blaring at you is, â€œRough night for Cruz.â€ By sort of disappearing off that stage, not only have we spent the last 72 hours talking about Donald Trump, but Ted Cruz was exposed, he was the man on the spot last night. At least according to a lot of observers, Ted Cruz had a rough night.

PC: Vann, where you on this, when it comes to who Trump is leading up to the Iowa caucuses and what he represents?

VANN R. NEWKIRK II: I think he represents the really influential and growing anti-establishment movement. I think his event juxtaposed with the debate really shows how for that movement has come, and how it's become a viable thing on its own.

PC: You know, Canada, as we have observed this, we are interested in this race and many people have many opinions on many of the candidates, especially on Donald Trump, we have been paying attention to this. During the last election though, Jay, the Democrats accuse the Republicans of carrying out a war on women. And now there's this controversy between Trump and Megyn Kelly. Could that hurt the Republican Party with women even more if he gets the nomination?

JAY NEWTON-SMALL: Absolutely. No Republican has won a general election in the United States unless they mitigate their loss of women, so they actually haven't won women overall in a presidential elections since Ronald Reagan. But they don't win unless they mitigate their loss to Democrats by less than five percentage points. And right now if you look at polling of women overall, so not just Republican women, but Republican, Democrats, and independents. Donald Trump is 45 points down with women, his approval ratings there are just in the tank, he's incredibly unpopular with women. And I don't know how you make that up. Even if he becomes the nominee and runs a total charm offensive against women for the rest of the entire general election, it's going to be incredibly difficult to make up that one gap. And women vote ten per cent more than men do in the United States and they swing elections, they're an incredibly powerful electorate.

PC: The other group, Vann, that Donald Trump has made some statements, outrageous, against are Mexicans, immigrants, and as well as Muslims. Is that going to help him get any more votes amongst Republicans?

VANN R. NEWKIRK II: Well I think he's playing a balancing game there. Is it going to help him win votes against a very specific set of the population that is very afraid, and sort of [unintelligible] I think agrees with those statements, absolutely. But I think, especially with the changing demographics of the country, and any presidential candidate is going to have to do pretty well in states that or heavily Latino, I don't know if it's going to help them win the kind of votes that he needs in the general.

PC: And yet it seems like Trump, the brand, is sort of this bridge Republican, populist, very white brand, that he is sort of sailing on right now.

VANN R. NEWKIRK II: Oh, definitely. Like I said, I think a lot of the response to Trump is that people actually agree with his statements, a lot of people do. But Iâ€™m not sure with the way the demographics of the country are, if we expect a decent turnout among minorities, among women. If he has enough in those sails that he has enough to capture the general.

PC: Matt, I want to talk about Ted Cruz, who as you say is making news, is perceived to be the guy who's up against Donald Trump. Born in Canada but American, and there has been something made of that in the American press and beyond. Why do you think Cruz is losing ground, with at least Iowa voters at this point?

MATT K. LEWIS: Well I think that clearly this is the impact of Donald Trump. Ted Cruz really should be tailor-made to win Iowa. He speaks evangelical very fluently. A lot of people find him to be obnoxious and annoying and to be pandering. But let's be honest, a lot of times that works, and a lot of times that sort of sanctimonious nature can work in politics. You need to sort of pander to the base. So I think in pretty much any other scenario right now, Ted Cruz would be winning Iowa, and of course that could launch him, that could give him momentum. But this is a really weird year, where you have Donald Trump, who is really defying political gravity, and despite the fact that he is a thrice married, casino magnate who says that he doesn't ask God for forgiveness, Donald Trump is doing pretty darn well with the evangelicals of Iowa.

JAY NEWTON-SMALL: Can I jump in here? I also thought that before I got here, and I have to say being on the ground, I don't know that I agree with that anymore. Iowa is almost always about organizing. There's 1,681 caucuses across the state on Monday, some of them are a small a seven people, others of them have thousands of people. But in order to win in Iowa you have to have a champion or precinct captain in as many of those contests as possible to put your name forward and argue for you amongst your peers or your fellow voters. Donald Trumpâ€™s sort of organization on the ground here is this kind of giant black hole, it's being run by one of his former Apprentice people, from the TV show. And Ted Cruz's organization is pretty impressive. Everything I hear from a lot of Republican operatives on the ground here is that for all the sort of Sturm und Drang attention that Trump is getting, it's really hard to imagine. And I saw this last night with the voters I was talking to. Donald Trump wasn't asking for their vote, didn't tell them how to vote. At least three of the voters that I spoke to could have caucused for him, didnâ€™t know where to caucus, didn't think they were going to caucus even though they liked him, because they didnâ€™t know and there was no one in the campaign telling them how to do it or guiding them through the process, and so I'm not sure it will translate into votes.

PC: Jay, the fact that you use the word caucus as a verb, sets the Americans a part from the Canadians. And to that point, we watch American politics, but not all of us understand exactly how it works. Come Monday, how important are these early primaries and caucuses to a campaign?

JAY NEWTON-SMALL: They are incredibly important. Even if it's just about momentum, the first win is really important. Although Iowa, I have to say, has in the last two cycles been a lot more important for Democrats than for Republicans. Democrats in Iowa have picked the winner consistently right every year since 1996. Republicans, in the last two cycles, it was won in 2008 by Mike Huckabee who then went on to lose the nomination. And then also and in 2012 by Rick Santorum. So these are the two former winners, who were with Donald Trump on the stage last night, and they're totally unlikely to win tonight, and they were very unlikely even after winning Iowa to win the nomination. So Republicans in Iowa tend to be very, very socially conservative and what you need to speak to them in order to win Iowa tends to almost disqualify you from winning other kinds of conservatives, like fiscal conservatives, and conservatives in other states.

PC: All right, I want to talk about the other party, the Democrats, who aren't getting as much attention, at least media wise, compared to the Republicans. But let's talk about them. Most people said this would be a coronation for Hillary Clinton, and then Senator Bernie Sanders, it's a horse race. Vann, what's happening in that race, how is he doing that?

VANN R. NEWKIRK II: Sanders is definitely surging. I believe he also represents the anti-establishment in the Democratic Party because he doesn't closely align with the party on all things, but within the liberal and left parts of America. So I think he represents a big portion of the racial backlash to policing issues that have happened in the past few years. I think a lot of people were looking for a voice to speak on inequality and race, sort of in a full throated manner, that doesn't really happen from the establishment. So Sanders represents a really strong challenge to what Hillary Clinton and the establishment represent.

PC: So black Democrat voters like Bernie Sanders?

VANN R. NEWKIRK II: I believe so.

PC: Jay talk to me -- Sorry go ahead.

JAY NEWTON-SMALL: Actually I sort of have to disagree with that and say that polling shows that black Democratic voters actually don't really like Bernie Sanders very much. You look at South Carolina, where I saw Bernie a couple of months ago, he has energy amongst white millennials and in progressive millennials, and white, and progressive whites. But with minorities, Hillary outpolls him enormously. Itâ€™s like more than 60-70 per cent of polling shows Latino and African-Americans going to her. So it's hard to imagine how he overcomes that once we leave almost all white Iowa, and almost all white New Hampshire, and go to Latino Nevada, and African-American South Carolina. Those two states, Hillary is favoured heavily to win. And there aren't any other states, except for maybe Montana and the Dakotas that are purely white that Bernie can win without minorities. And polling shows he doesn't really appeal to them.

PC: I want to talk about whether it's the Sanders or it's the Trump. Vann, you say we're looking at this post-modern political candidate. I want to ask each of you, what does this say about your country and where it's at in 2016? Matt, what does this all saying about the United States of America politically?

MATT K. LEWIS: So this is something I talk about in my book, Too Dumb to Fail, and it's a really important phenomenon right now. I think that what you have is a situation where there's a large contingent of working class whites who are really frustrated, really angry, and they believe that the American dream has passed them by. The notion that you could graduate from high school, and get a factory job paying you $15 an hour, and raise a middle class family, those days are gone. It's funny because if you hear Ted Cruz talk, and you hear Bernie Sanders talk, in a way, I mean one guy is a hard-core conservative and the other guy's a socialist. But in a way they actually have similar messages about nation building, adventurism, about free trade, protectionism, there are a lot of parallels right now. It's more an outsider versus insider than on a left versus right paradigm. And again, I think if you are a working class, white American who feels left behind, you need to blame somebody for this. And so maybe you blame capitalism, or crony capitalism, the corporations, you can blame globalism, I think if you're a Donald Trump fan you blame immigration, there's automation, there's all sorts of factors that have contributed to this problem. This phenomenon though is especially harmful on the right because conservatives were hoping to take their conservative message and make it more diverse to try to find an appealing message for women, for a diverse ethnic audience, for younger people, more cosmopolitan urban people. But there's this huge under-served niche of voters out there of angry, frustrated, passionate voters that Donald Trump has essentially, I think, exploited. And so there's a market for his message.

PC: Vann, where are you on this? What is this telling you about the country in which you live as you look at these political races?

VANN R. NEWKIRK II: Well I think, to echo those last points, it shows that people are afraid and frustrated. Both Sandersâ€™ and Trumpâ€™s ascendency, I think, illustrate that point. There's been years of gridlock in DC, and I think the average person looks and sees senators, and people who actually are sort of responsible for it, get on stage. Even though Sanders is part of that, he still represents, I think, something that's an alternative to the two party, left and right, locking heads and going at it for an entire cycle. And Trump also represents a major outsider view, and standpoint. So I think this is what happens when people get so frustrated, we havenâ€™t bounced back in a lot of sectors from a recession the way many people expected. Inequality is widening and I think there are people who just need something different.

PC: Jay Newton-Small, Iâ€™ll give you the last word, what do you see happening in your country when you look at the race for the US president?

JAY NEWTON-SMALL: I do agree with both Vann and Matt, and the idea that there's a very strong and vocal vein of anti-establishmentism that's going on within the country right now. It's fascinating to see and it is certainly a debate worth having as economic equality has gotten more and more pronounced; Bernie Sandersâ€™ message is absolutely resonating. As the Republican electorate feels that their members are not speaking to them at all, theyâ€™re speaking for them or to them; that's why Trump is resonating. The question is though, looking down the road, whether or not Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump can turn these into votes. I think that as we go to the polls on Monday, as we finally start this voting process, it will be really interesting to see their organizational skills and whether they can actually do this. I remain skeptical that we're going to see a Bernie Sanders versus Donald Trump general election. I think it will actually be more like a Hillary Clinton versus Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio general election. And I think that for all of the Sturm und Drang and the passion that you see right now in the primaries, down the road we will have a more traditional election.

PC: Well we will see come November, thank you, and lots to happen before then, of course. Thank you to all three of you for joining us.

JAY NEWTON-SMALL: Thank you.

MATT K. LEWIS: Thank you.

VANN R. NEWKIRK II: Thank you.

PC: Jay Newton-Small is the Washington correspondent for Time Magazine. Matt K. Lewisâ€™ new book is called, Too Dumb to Fail: How the GOP Betrayed the Reagan Revolution to Win Elections and How it Can Reclaim its Conservative Roots. And Van R. Newkirk II is a staff writer at Daily Kos. We do want to hear from you on this one. We know you care about American politics and what's happening down there and how it might affect us up here, so do let us know. You can tweet us @thecurrentCBC, you can send us an e-mail by going to our website www.cbc.ca/thecurrent and then click on the contact link.

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Got a prescription for that? Manitoba clamps down on painkillers with codeine

Guests: Ron Guse, Dr. Ginette Poulin, Dr. David Juurlink

[Music:Theme]

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Getting a grip on codeine abuse.

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JORDAN CHARLES: Every community pharmacy is going to have their own story of battling with people who are over-using this. They're using it every day. Every day they're going in buying one or two or three bottles and they're hopping between pharmacies, and we've got no way of tracking it. You see it's across the whole socio-economic strata whether it be poor, middle class, or rich. It's just the fact that it's easily accessible. As long as you don't look like you're going to eat all the 100 right in front of them, nobody is going to second guess you.

PC: That's Winnipeg pharmacist Jordan Charles. He's someone who is on the front lines of Manitoba's battle with codeine, a battle that is playing out right across our country. Codeine is a pain killer. It's available in Canada, anywhere you live, without a prescription, despite the fact that it can be highly addictive and highly dangerous. Two years ago, Jordan Charles decided he'd seen enough of the abuse of codeine and he decided to stop selling over the counter pain killers containing the drug. And now, come this Monday February 1^st, the province of Manitoba is taking a similarily bold stance. It will become the first province in Canada to ban the sale of codeine without a prescription. Now the new regulations will also make it possible for pharmacists to track a patient's use of codeine. Ron Guse is Registrar of the College of Pharmacists of Manitoba. He's in our Winnipeg studio. Hello.

RON GUSE: Hello.

PC: So, you just heard Jordan Charles talking about his concerns about these products over the years. Why is the college doing this now?

RON GUSE: Well, I think the college shared those concerns for many years but most recently there was a change in the legislation in Manitoba that allowed this to occur through regulations.

PC: When we're talking about drugs with codeine, what are we talking about?

RON GUSE: Well, there are numerous products on the market. Probably the public would recognize names like Tylenol 1, for example, or cough syrups with codeine, those types of things.

PC: Tell me about how people have been abusing these products in the past.

RON GUSE: Well, we don't have a lot of good studies on it because I think-- probably your listeners have heard already it's something that's readily accessible, so there's not a lot of science behind the challenges it causes, and the addictions and the risks it puts patients in. Once we have these changes occurring on February 1^st, we will also be able to get a better handle on the impact on patient safety and patient care.

PC: Anecdotally, can you tell me about some of the challenges?

RON GUSE: Well, I haven't practiced in the dispensary for many years but typically we've heard how people would be using too much of the medication to gain access to the codeine. With that codeine they also get a very large amount of acetaminophen, which can cause liver problems and liver damage.

PC: Help me understand this, though. People are taking this to what, to get to get a side effect that makes them feel good out of this stuff?

RON GUSE: The codeine is a narcotic and those that have that narcotic desire and maybe can't get enough of it through their other sources, might turn to that, to use the codeine for that. It is also not just a concern for those that are intentionally misusing and abusing. Because this drug is similar to other prescription drugs, we want to make certain that the patient isnâ€™t, unbeknownst to them, using more medication than they need to.

PC: As you say, you haven't worked at dispensing in a pharmacy for many years, but in your time when you were, I mean is this an age old problem? Did you see it when you were working in a pharmacy?

RON GUSE: Oh yes. You know, the Council of the College of Pharmacists in Manitoba and pharmacists across the country have harboured this concern and how to best address the challenge because you do have people coming into the pharmacy legitimately needing the medication, but there are also those that are seeking it for the use of a narcotic. And again, the unbeknownst ones might be duplicating the medications unnecessarily.

PC: And as a pharmacist behind the counter, I mean how hard was it and how hard is it for your fellow pharmacists nowadays to say no to your customers, no I'm not going to sell you this?

RON GUSE: Well, it's a challenge, no two ways about it. One thing that's good about the change, is that it is going on prescription. The pharmacists in Manitoba can issue the prescription as well and the key part of this whole change, is that it would go into their provincial medication profiles. So, if the patient came into one pharmacy and the pharmacist assessed them and decided to prescribe the medication, the medication would go into the patient profile and should they desire to go to another pharmacy and try to get more medication, the next pharmacist would be able to check the profile and see what the previous pharmacist as did.

PC: There have been many stories, including CBCâ€™s Marketplace and Winnipegâ€™s investigative team, where reporters have been able to buy bottles and bottles of codeine with acetaminophen in a matter of hours in Winnipeg. And as you said, this has been a long standing problem and a challenge. Why haven't pharmacists been more diligent before this? I'm just trying to get a sense of why now?

RON GUSE: Well again, there is change in legislation to allow the law to be implemented. The challenge is that even though a pharmacist might do the best job they possibly can, not knowing the patient history, or where they got previous medications from, or how much, is very, very difficult. What this does is give the pharmacist a tool now to do a better job for the patient.

PC: Can you tell me about the change in legislation, what made this possible?

RON GUSE: The legislation was proclaimed--the original legislation was passed in 2006 was proclaimed in 2014 along with regulations and in those regulations it identifies pharmacists as a practitioner and also allows pharmacists ability to prescribe.

PC: What confidence do you have that this is going to make things better?

RON GUSE: Well, it's all part of the harm reduction type activities happening in our province and, Iâ€™m certain, other provinces as well. Pharmacists are very much geared for patient care and patient safety. They are very understanding of why the change is needed. They understand that it's a tool that they can now use to provide that better care and we have field officers that will go to pharmacies and check compliance on all fronts, but this will be part of what they are checking as well.

PC: And if a pharmacist is found to be giving codeine drugs to someone whose profile has had a lot of those at other pharmacies, can he or she be held accountable in any way?

RON GUSE: They'll be asked what caused them in their decision process to provide more medication than what would seem to be reasonable.

PC: Are there any consequences if there is a finding that they didn't use reasonable judgement, or that there wasn't a good enough reason?

RON GUSE: Yeah, theyâ€™ll come off the field operations. The routine inspections are reported to the college office to the registrar and then depending on and what the oversight is, or the misconduct is, the pharmacistâ€™s practice could be reviewed. Or in fact, it could be going through the complaint or discipline process. But mostly along this line, it's one of awareness and weâ€™ve provided a professional development program for pharmacists to understand what their role and responsibility in this new change is.

PC: And what are you hearing from them, do they like this approach?

RON GUSE: We've only heard positive. I have to be very honest. I think again, having the information in the database it's been a very positive response by all pharmacists.

PC: Ron Guse, thank you for giving us the perspective from where you stand on this.

RON GUSE: Youâ€™re more than welcome. Thank you for the opportunity.

PC: Ron GUSE is the Registrar of The College of Pharmacists of Manitoba. He was in our Winnipeg studio. There are currently 350 people being treated for opioid addiction at Manitobaâ€™s Addiction Foundation, and more than 100 others are on a waiting list. Our next guest has some serious questions about how ready Manitoba's health care providers are to handle the potential fallout from banning non-prescription codeine. Dr. Ginette Poulin is the Medical Director of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba. She too, is in our Winnipeg studio. Hello

GINETTE POULIN: Good morning, Piya.

PC: So this rolls out starting Monday. What are you going to be watching for in the weeks to come as this prescription-only policy for codeine comes into effect?

GINETTE POULIN: Well, I certainly think that we all need to be aware and the reason that I say this is because family members, friends, and certainly as health care providers, we need to anticipate that there are going to be people coming into our walk-ins, our emergency departments, our clinics, either in withdrawal, potentially overdosing seeking out other sources to supplement the over-the-counter codeines which they are no longer able to access. Or, certainly experiencing secondary effects from other opiates that they have chosen to use in place of the codeine they no longer have access to.

PC: I just want to get a profile of the codeine abuser, if I can put it that way, the kinds of people you see coming into clinics and places like yours. In your experience, how does a codeine dependence start? I know we're talking generalities here and there are specifics to every individual, but in a general sense, how does that dependency start?

GINETTE POULIN: Well, I would certainly say there's no specific profile when it comes to any dependency on an opiate. We have elderly, we have adolescents, we have male, female, every culture and ethnicity that walks through the door, certainly no discrimination there. Sometimes it starts insidiously. It may be perhaps an ache or a pain you know, a family friend has suggested that they try a Tylenol 1 for-- perhaps they were given from another parent or someone who had suggested you know, try this and then it suddenly becomes more prevalent and more of a habit. Other people, they were given a prescription of a stronger opiate, maybe after surgery and then they become dependent and they seek out. Other people, they started on cough syrup so it can be as benign as that and it becomes a problem before they know it.

PC: If someone is cut off from this, if they have a harder time accessing this, you talked about more people showing up and perhaps abusing different drugs, what does withdrawal from codeine look like?

GINETTE POULIN: So, it can be variable. Certainly, we look for certain things such as aches, pains, sweating, lacrimation, runny nose, runny eyes, very uncomfortable, agitated, these are typically the things that people will present with when they're in withdrawals. And certainly they'll be heavily seeking another opiate source to replace this and ease this discomfort.

PC: So, you're concerned that taking away easy access or easier access to one drug could make people who abuse that drug just find an alternative?

GINETTE POULIN: Yeah. That's potentially the scary thing because a lot of people unfortunately, when it comes to opiate addictions, do hold a stigma or a certain shame, in perhaps their use. Often, the over-the- counter was typically a more easy way to access these without having to you know, ask their physician or a pharmacist. So now, when they don't have that at their ready disposal, they might be seeking a perhaps stronger source. As we know, certainly in the media and certainly from my perspective as a health care provider, that a lot of other heavy substances like oxycodone laced with fentanyl, is out there and that could potentially be life threatening to these patients.

PC: The argument to do this of course though, is that this is going to get people who abuse codeine to stop having easy access. The hope is that that means that some people are just not going to take that avenue which you suggest might happen. Not go get fentanyl off the street, that they're going to be like Iâ€™m done because I can't just walk into a store and get this. What would you say to that?

GINETTE POULIN: Well, I would say that it's probably going to bring up--it's going to bring some awareness to those that were perhaps using more than they thought they did. Certainly us at AFM, we're going to be prepared to take on more of these, and I think it's important to bring, certainly with this type of media attention, it also brings awareness out there just in the general public, which is very important. Some people may realize this and seek the attention they need to address the issue. Other people will certainly dig into deeper avenues.

PC: There are those also who say this is not the ultimate fix but it is one step in the very right direction. Do you agree with that?

GINETTE POULIN: Yeah, I think one thing that this brings up which is a very important issue, is that currently as it stands with over-the- counter products, it's very difficult to monitor and track what is going on so, in that instance people have access we might not realize the depth of the problem. When we're able to track this, we can identify earlier the risk for addictions or those who might be on the verge of this. So one, that's an important factor. Also at this point, as was mentioned earlier in the program, we can help prevent over-prescribing. Because it is tracked, they can't as easily go to two, three, four pharmacies. As it certainly happens, people are willing to travel the province when it comes to opiate addictions to get their source. So, certainly from that perspective we can help address the issue in just keeping on track of that.

PC: Now as I mentioned, there are currently 350 people being treated for opioid addiction at Manitobaâ€™s Addictions Foundation. There are hundreds more, at least 100 more, on the waiting list. That is the foundation at which you work at, but across Manitoba, does that province have the addiction resources it needs to deal with this particular issue?

GINETTE POULIN: This is a great question. Certainly this is an issue that is quite large and is growing. We ourselves, as a foundation, are growing as well. We've been doing training for new physicians, more nurses. Certainly, the resources advocating for more funds on a government level, we're doing all that we can to help address and ensure that we have better resources to manage this issue. Certainly provincial-wide, looking at expanding programs. There are a few other programs within the province that deal with opiate addictions as well.

PC: Dr. Ginette Poulin, thank you for your time.

GINETTE POULIN: Thank you very much, Piya. Bye.

PC: Dr. Ginette Poulin is the Medical Director of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba. She was in our Winnipeg studio. So, Manitoba will be the first province to ban non-prescription codeine. Other provinces are watching, and territories are watching closely, to see what choices it is making and how it will all play out. And my next guest wants to see other provinces follow Manitoba's lead. Dr. David Juurlink is the Head of the Division of Clinical Pharmacology Toxicology at the University of Toronto. He is in Toronto. Hello.

DAVID JUURLINK: Morning, Piya.

PC: So, you want other provinces to do what Manitoba is about to do. Why?

DAVID JUURLINK: Well, I think that ideally would happen is the federal government would reschedule or re-classify this product so that it requires a prescription regardless of where you are. But I think Manitoba is doing the right thing and the reason I say that is because when you think about the goals of using a medication, they're really to offer the patient benefits that exceed the risks. I think it's fair to say that with this product, that almost never happens.

PC: We'll talk about than a sec, but it's a product--codeine is found in over-the-counter cough syrups, itâ€™s found in the acetominophen family and so a lot of people that aren't, I don't know, Iâ€™m not going to say are not abusers, but regular people like me go into that pharmacy and go and grab that, this means I will either have to go to, if I live in Manitoba, go to my doctor and get a prescription or go to the pharmacy. A lot of people would say that's just going to tie up resources and it's not worth this.

DAVID JUURLINK: It's a fair point to make and we all have had headaches and backaches and have had the inclination to take something for it, and I think we've all held the perception that you know, you can get an anti-inflammatory or some Tylenol over-the-counter but doesn't it make more sense to get something that's stronger and has a bit of codeine? All you have to do is ask the pharmacist for that. The problem with that is, that the amount of codeine that you get in these tablets is so small as to be clinically useless. It will constipate you and it will have a bunch of other side effects and it is possible to become addicted to these products, but if you take them as directed, two tablets say, four times a day, the amount of analgesic you get from that is really basically zero.

PC: So, codeine does nothing for pain?

DAVID JUURLINK: Well, it is bit more complicated than thatâ€”

PC: Okay, I'm sure it is.

DAVID JUURLINK: Iâ€™ll just summarize. I mean, we have this perception doctors are very familiar with and very comfortable prescribing codeine and I think patients are comfortable taking it. The problem with it is, it's an irrational drug and here's why. It's not a pain killer. It has to be converted by your liver into an active drug. That drug is morphine and what isn't widely appreciated, is we have varying abilities to do that. About seven percent of the population when they take codeine, doesn't matter how much they take, they get exactly zero morphine. Some people are genetically able to make a lot of morphine from a given dose of codeine but the point is that when you give somebody a known amount of codeine, what you're really doing is giving them an unknown amount of morphine.

PC: Okay. You have written, you mention the federal government, you have written an open letter to Canada's new Health Minister Jane Philpott. What are you asking her to do about codeine?

DAVID JUURLINK: Well, that letter was really in the broader context of the prescription opioid epidemic, which is what I would say is one of the, if not the greatest, drug safety threats that Canada faces today. What the purpose of that letter was to share some suggestions as to how we might rectify this problem and one of the suggestions, Iâ€™d say one of the minor ones, was the proposal that no pharmacy should sell codeine without a prescription. Again the amounts of codeine you get in two tablets of this stuff, 16 mg, doesn't do anything. It's been very clearly studied and shown to be the case.

PC: What happens in other jurisdictions outside of Canada? Can you walk into a pharmacy and grab something with codeine in it?

DAVID JUURLINK: No. In fact, I spoke yesterday with a colleague, friend of mine in Windsor, and there they routinely have patients who come from the US who will come across the border and they'll ask for a few bottles to bring back for themselves or for family members. And he said to me, if I say no to them I know they will just go down the street and go somewhere else. In very few jurisdictions in the world is this drug, which comes from the opium poppy, available without a prescription.

PC: How did this happen in Canada, then?

DAVID JUURLINK:[laughs] A good question. I don't know. It goes back decades, but really you know, the idea that since the sixties or seventies, Canadians have been able to walk into pharmacies and buy, literally if you wanted to, thousands of tablets of the stuff within an hour or two you know, a drug that is so readily converted to morphine by some people, I think just defies belief.

PC: You wrote to our Federal Health Minister. You said, here are some suggestions about what we should do and how this fits into the broader picture. Did she respond to you?

DAVID JUURLINK: Well, I'm aware that she read the article and I think she viewed it favorably and I have to say that I think that, she's a physician as I'm sure you know, I think that she-- all indications are that she is taking this issue very seriously and I'm hopeful that the federal government over the years ahead, will be able to make serious inroads into this problem.

PC: As you suggest, Canada has a drug epidemic problem right now. Fentanyl seems to be the poster child of this right now, but as you say, there are many others. Why do you think we have some of the highest opioid prescription rates in the world?

DAVID JUURLINK: I think it is complex. I think it relates to the fact that pain is pretty common actually, and most of the drugs that we have for pain don't work very well for many patients. About 20 years ago, physicians began to get the message that we should be prescribing opioids like Oxycontin and fentanyl and Dilaudid a lot of more readily for chronic pain. One of the key messages that we heard was you don't have to be as worried about addiction as you historically were. Turns out, that that's entirely incorrect. I mean, we now realize that what we've been doing for the past 20 years is doling out drugs with the best of intentions to people who I think really have serious pain. Doling out drugs that, for many people, don't work very well, and for a great number of them cause harm. Codeine, for some of those people, is you know, their first taste of an opiate and I remember-- I was a pharmacist for five years myself in Nova Scotia and I remember very clearly seeing people go from store to store buying 100 tablets every couple of days and they don't just get sick, by the way, from the opioids they take, they get sick from the acetaminophen and from the aspirin that is in these products.

PC: There are people listening here saying, come on Dr. Juurlink, I go out and get some cough syrup or a Tylenol with some codeine in it, and then in the same sentence you're kind of putting that--you're talking about fentanyl. So, when we hear about the damage caused by the abuse of all opioids such as fentanyl, where does behind-the-counter codeine fit into that larger context, that bigger picture?

DAVID JUURLINK: I think it's a small part of the problem. I think most people who buy the stuff, they take a couple of tablets now and then and their headache goes away. I contend that it might well have gone away without those tablets because of the amounts of the drugs that is in them, but as I say, I think there are some people who, when they take, experiment for example as teenagers might do, with three or four of these tablets and they'll feel a bit of a buzz, and I think in the wrong person, the person who is you know, genetically able to make morphine in high amounts, the person who has life stressors, he's got other problems, and takes these drugs and finds that they make them feel great. They, you know, give them a lift and it's not too much of a stretch to say that these people sometimes end up into the spiral of addiction.

PC: A number of provinces that we have talked to and contacted say that they're going to monitor what's happening in Manitoba as it rolls out. They may well follow Manitoba's lead. What do you think of that?

DAVID JUURLINK: I think itâ€™s a good idea. I think you know, there are several provinces, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Quebec, Newfoundland, who already track these in a system but there are others like Ontario that doesn't happen in. I appreciate that people want to be free of pain but I think it's important for people who take these products to realize that the amount of pain relief you get from the little bit of acetaminophen and a little bit of codeine in these products, is rarely worth the side effects and the risks of the drugs.

PC: Dr. David Juurlink, thank you for your time as well. I very much appreciate it.

DAVID JUURLINK: My pleasure.

PC: Okay, bye-bye. Dr. David Juurlink is Head of the Division of Clinical Pharmacology and Toxicology at the University of Toronto. If you have your own story to share on this topic you can send us an e-mail by going to our cbc.ca/thecurrent and clicking on the contact links from there. You can write to us an e-mail and find all the other ways to reach us as well.

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How will renewed economic relations with Iran affect Iranian-Canadians?

Guests: Tina Terhanchian, Soudeh Ghasemi, Ardeshir Zarezadeh, Joobin Bekhrad

PC: Hi again. Iâ€™m Piya Chattopadhyay and this is the Friday edition of The Current. Well, it has been quite a week for Iran. After years of isolation, the country has flung open its doors, at least to foreign investment. The Iranian president Hassan Rouhani was given red carpet treatment on his tour of European capitals where he has signed some major trade deals totally as much as 87 billion Dollars Canadian. This all comes in the wake of Iran's agreement last year to curb its nuclear ambition which led to sanctions being lifted by countries around the world. In Ottawa, our Foreign Affairs Minister StÃ©phane Dion announced that Canada will follow its allies and begin dismantling some of the 200 economic sanctions Canada currently in place against Iran.

SOUNDCLIP

Weâ€™ll do it in proper fashion. And weâ€™ll do it in accordance with our allies, as you know, keeping sanctions to be sure that Iran will not have the capacity to be involved in nuclear military measures, so weâ€™ll certainly be very responsible in order to do so.

PC: Well, that news, of course, is a particular interest to Iranian Canadians; we have a large diaspora here in our country. Many still have strong ties with family and friends in Iran who have felt the brunt of those economic sanctions on their daily lives. So we're going to be hearing from several Iranian Canadians about how these new developments will affect them and their friends and family back home. So, first, to get a sense of how businesses in Canada stand to benefit from the opening of trade relations with Iran I'm joined by Tina Terhanchian. She is the founding Chair of the Iranian Canadian Network. Sheâ€™s also a Senior Financial Planner at Assante Capital Management. She's right next to me here in Toronto. Hello.

TINA TERHANCHIAN: Good morning.

PC: How are you?

TINA TERHANCHIAN: Good, thank you.

PC: How are your friends and family in Iran responding to the news that the international economic sanctions are being lifted, removed?

TINA TERHANCHIAN: Well, everybody I know is thrilled. People in Iran have been suffering for a long time. As you very well know, the sanctions that were imposed on Iran were the harshest that any country in the world has put up with and they have been going on for decades. So people are very happy. They're very optimistic. They have been happy since the even the thought of the sanctions being lifted was first introduced.

PC: Okay. And so there are Canadian companies now saying, hey, Iranâ€™s open for business. And you're getting those inquiries.

TINA TERHANCHIAN: Yes.

PC: What kind of inquiries are you getting?

TINA TERHANCHIAN: Well, there are indigenous Canadian companies who, for the first time, are thinking about Iran as a potential market. There are companies that used to do business with Iran but had to discontinue because of the sanctions.

PC: Which we slapped on 2012, right?

TINA TERHANCHIAN: Yes, well, the severest part of the sanctions were introduced in 2012 and that included the banking and financial institution restrictions, which was really stifling for businesses, because, as you know, in order to do business you have to get paid and if you cannot get paid through your financial institution in the country that you do business, that makes life very difficult, especially for small and medium sized businesses that don't have the luxury of having subsidiaries in different foreign countries and being able to funnel the funds through those countries.

PC: And so banking's one industry that's trying to get back in. What other kind of industries are looking to invest in Iran?

TINA TERHANCHIAN: A whole variety of industries. For example, in Ontario manufacturing is a big section of our industry and Iran needs everything from auto parts to refinery parts to planes and consumer products. So you name it. The country has been starved economically for decades and especially the last four or five years have been brutal. So there is huge pent up demand and I guess the recent deal with Airbus is evidence of that and the 17 billion Euros of contracts with Italy. European countries have been very, more much more agile than Canada or the US, mainly, because they had huge volume of trade with Iran before 2012. And they have been posturing and getting ready to pounce on business opportunities. Whereas, unfortunately, in Canada because of the previous government's positions, especially, and inflexibility towards Iran that sort of possibility has not presented itself.

PC: And so when a Canadian company calls you and says, hey, Tina. I'm looking to get into Iran. What are you telling them? What advice are you giving them?

TINA TERHANCHIAN: That's a good question. So I tell them to proceed with caution. First of all, yes, the sanctions are being lifted, some of them are being lifted. There are still going to be sanctions that have to do with human rights and the alleged support of terrorism. There is a possibility- very slim- that if Iran does not abide by all the conditions for the nuclear treaty, that even the current sanctions that are being lifted could snap back. So any business that is going back there has to be cognizant. And it is also creating a lot of anxiety for large institutions like banks and financial institutions who deal with the US. They are very scared of somehow stepping on some toes and breaking rules that would relate to the sanctions that are still going on with regards to human rights.

PC: So, give me an example of how could, sort of, backfire.

TINA TERHANCHIAN: The way it could backfire is for example, BNP Paribas, the French bank, got slapped with nine billion dollars of fines last year for contravening the sanctions with regards to Iran as well as Sudan and Cuba. And this is a real threat for multi-national institutions that have very strong dealings with the US. And the rules are very complicated when it comes to these sanctions. As you just said, there's 200 of them and it's tough to navigate.

PC: We have a very large Iranian diaspora in this country. I think it's a second largest in the world, if I'm not mistaken.

TINA TERHANCHIAN: Thatâ€™s right.

PC: Does that help get Canada-- You know having that knowledge, that expertise, that support, I mean, how much of a help is a large Iranian Canadian community going to help Canada get a foothold back into this market.

TINA TERHANCHIAN: I think that's a huge resource for Canada and it should give us a leg up, so I really hope that the government uses this resource to the most and uses the potential. Iranian Canadians still very much care about their mother country no matter what their political inclination is. We all care about the people of Iran. And we all want the suffering, especially the economic suffering, that they have been going through over the last few decades to be eased and for the prosperity to come back to that country. Plus, Iranian Canadians know the culture. So that is again a very big resource that the government and businesses in Canada can tap into.

PC: Tina Terhanchian, thank you.

TINA TERHANCHIAN: Thank you very much.

PC: Tina Terhanchian the founding Chair of the Iranian Canadian Network. Sheâ€™s also a Senior Financial Planner at Assante Capital Management. And she's here in Toronto. Well, beyond business or diplomacy this opening of a new era of relations with Iran is bound to make a real difference in many real people's lives, as Tina mentioned, and it will make a difference in the lives of my next guests, all of whom are Iranian Canadians, all of whom are around the table with me here in Toronto. Soudeh Ghasemi is a community activist. Hello to you.

SOUDEH GHASEMI: Hello.

PC: Joobin Bekhrad is the editor of ReOrient Magazine. It is a magazine covering contemporary Middle Eastern arts and cultures. Welcome to you as well.

JOOBIN BEKHRAD: Thank you, Piya.

PC: Ardeshir Zarezadeh is Executive Director of the International Centre for Human Rights in Canada.Hello.

ARDESHIR ZAREZADEH: Good morning, Piya.

PC: How are all you guys doing with this news?

SOUDEH GHASEMI: Weâ€™re doing great.

JOOBIN BEKHRAD: Fantastic. Couldnâ€™t be happier.

PC: You couldn't be happier. Okay. So everyone is very happy about the economic sanctions being lifted on Iran. When you talk to your families, Soudeh, and your friends back home, what do they say?

SOUDEH GHASEMI: They're actually very happy. Everyone is pretty hopeful for the future. People in Iran and especially for me that I have ties back home still, family ties back home. I hear them that they see a hope for the future. They think that the doors of the country are open for them to be exposed to the world not only financially. So many of Iranians have been affected negatively for the past few years due to the sanctions. As you know, so many people didn't have access to basic needs, like medicine, common foods, like, chicken was so expensive. And these are all the results of sanctions and including inflation itself.

PC: You know, we haven't heard a tonne, but we do hear how sanctions have affected the people who live in Iran. They've affected people like you as well, Iranian Canadians. Tell me about that.

SOUDEH GHASEMI: That's correct. I was here actually a few years back on the story of TD Bank closing bank accounts. So I was, I think, I was one of the very first people who got hit by these unilateral sanctions and rules that the bank introduced. It was introduced to the banks later on. And then my family bank account and my bank account was closed--

PC: In Canada?

SOUDEH GHASEMI: In Canada. It was closed. It was shut down.

PC: Because?

SOUDEH GHASEMI: Because of my bad background and ethnic group, technically. At the end of the day I never got any clear explanation as why and my banking services was never retrieved. I didn't go back to normal and I had to switch banks. I was treated as an alien. I was treated with-- I was discriminated against definitely. And I was kind of shocked, to be honest. Iâ€™m like, there has to be reason behind this. And there were no reasons. Technically, on the letter they referred me to Foreign Affairs. The bank referred to Foreign Affairs and they said you need to discuss your issue with them.

PC: Okay. Let me bring our other two guests into our conversation. Joobin Bekhrad, the lifting of economic sanctions against Iran by Canada and other countries, this is a welcome step for you as well. Why?

JOOBIN BEKHRAD: For me and for most and for most people in my circles, this is going to be great for everyone. I don't see how it could possibly be negative. It's going to be great for the Canadian economy. Itâ€™s going to be great for the Iranian people, who, I mean, as Soudeh has mentioned, as Tina previously mentioned, they've been under so much pressure and they've gone through so much. Iran is a huge market so obviously, I mean, economically speaking itâ€™s going to be great for Canada. I actually think Canada has a lot more to gain, economically speaking, when it comes to the recent events and the news about the sanctions. I'm happy because, well, I always have, I'm always thinking about the Iranian people first and foremost. And I travel to Iran every year and I see how sanctions impact people's lives. I mean, the lives of ordinary people, not statesmen, not clerics. I'm talking about ordinary people. You know, artists who can't, for instance, buy supplies because they're not there, people have to think twice about buying things that they never used to think twice about before, products that aren't available over there. When it comes to, for instance, artists, some of them have exhibitions in other parts of the world. They canâ€™t attend their own exhibitions. You know, there's no Canadian embassy in Tehran and they have to travel to Ankara, for instance, and waste two to three weeks of their time over there waiting in the dark to see if or if not they'll be given a visa to go to Canada. And sadly many Iranians over here in Canada, they don't seem to understand this.

PC: Okay. I'm going to pick up on that in a minute.

JOOBIN BEKHRAD: Sure.

PC: But I want to bring Ardeshir Zarezadeha into our conversation. Do you share the optimism of these two?

ARDESHIR ZAREZADEH: Well, I see much positive feedback from inside the country, but, I guess, being very optimistic is sending a wrong message to the people of Iran, because they are living under a cleric and theocratic regime suffering from human rights violations. And we canâ€™t be blind because we are dealing with Islamic Republic of Iran. Why the international community and UN impose sanctions since 2006? Because of Iran's Iranian regime's act, because exploiting revolution, Islamic revolution, because exporting terrorism. The-- [coughs] Excuse me. The sanctions, we can't just blame US, Canada, UN, European countries. We have to blame Iranian regime. And now we are seeing they are going the sanctions. That's a positive step because of the nuclear deal, but at the same time, we have sanctions for human rights violations, for supporting terrorism. They have to stay in their place.

PC: Let me ask you about that, Joobin. How worried are you? I mean, they're the supporter of Syrian President Bashar al Assad by Iran. Two Iranian Canadians are still in jail, there are many others and many local Iranians imprisoned by this regime. How worried are you that by if we take away this quote-unquote pressure of sanctions, that Canada and other countries will lose its ability to pressure Iran on other issues, namely human rights?

JOOBIN BEKHRAD: Piya, I think we've all seen the effect that sanctions have had when it comes to these sorts of matters. They haven't had any sort of effect on the Iranian government and what I think people need to understand is that sanctions, whether it's the States or Canada or Western powers, the Iranian people, sadly, many of whom over here, they are advocates of sanctions and Western intervention and they're hoping that-- They have this romantic notion that the West will go and liberate Iran and everything is going to be rosy. They need to realize that sanctions only harm the Iranian people and they have only harmed the Iranian people. So I think the lifting of sanctions is only going to be positive. I think normalizing relations between Iran and Canada is going to make it a lot easier for Canada to deal with Iran when it comes to all sorts of matters, rather than make things more difficult. I think the time has come to re-establish a dialogue. I don't see how this will be negative. And, again, sanctions, we've seen what they've done. They have only harmed the Iranian people.

PC: Ardeshir, what do you say to that?

ARDESHIR ZAREZADEH: Well, you know, I hear that people say, especially, some community activists blaming Western countries and UN international community for imposing sanctions and putting pressure on regime and the reason why? Because they have trouble with TD Bank or they have trouble traveling to Ankara and for finger print. Itâ€™s just one day. Itâ€™s not three weeks or so. And because they can't get much more money from inside the country for their studies, itâ€™s not that difficult. You don't spend much time. And you do business with your people in on the inside of the country. It's not that hard. I understand that there are hardships. I understand that it's a little bit difficult. But it's not about sanctions. We have to improve on both sides, on the inside of the country, the officials, and here, the Canadian government, US government. We have problems everywhere. For example, we have issues with student visas, we have problems with visas for parents, grandparents, family unification, and so. Well, I believe that we are being very optimistic on this. And we should understand that, first of all, diplomatic relations, opening doors is very positive. I have no problem with that.

PC: And StÃ©phane Dion said that they will do that, reopen diplomatic offices, embassy staff, but that is not a first priority or first step in Iran.

ARDESHIR ZAREZADEH: But just impasses on this Iranian regime, the lifting sanctions is going to help people- it's the wrong message to the people of Iran.

PC: Going to help regular Iranian people? You don't think it will do that?

ARDESHIR ZAREZADEH: Well, look, we are going to lift the sanctions. What's the result? Who is controlling the economy on the inside? That's a question for your panelists.

SOUDEH GHASEMI: I'm just going to actually, I'm going to go back to the subjects that we started.

ARDESHIR ZAREZADEH: No, no. Before you go there, I just want to know who is controlling the Iranian economy? And whatâ€™s the result of lifting the sanctions on the inside?

SOUDEH GHASEMI: Okay. Answering to your question, when the policies of back-- And I know you say 2006, I would say 2011. When the Harper government introduced sanctions and this anti-diplomatic relationship and policy against Iran there were some slogans attached to what they introduce in this policy. So, basically they were saying this is as a result of Iran's human rights issues. This is because of Iran's role in the Middle East. And also because of their nuclear program. So as the result of this whole package, they introduced sanctions and they cut all the relationships with Iran, both embassies were shut down. They introduced unilateral sanctions and then the government advertised so much that the talks of nuclear deal won't go anywhere. And we've seen for the past few months that-- So, basically, what Ardeshir is saying, these points that they've been advertised so much for the past few years. Not only none of them have been addressed for the past few years, as a result of sanctions and imposing sanctions, but also some of them have been solved due to diplomatic relationships and diplomatic talks. In the case of prisoners, political prisoners, American, we've seen some of them have been released. We have two political prisoners here, Saeed Malekpour and Mostafa Azizi, and I know as a fact that Mostafaâ€™s son is very hopeful of release of his father as a result of all these changes. So I would say, the points that you're mentioning did not change, none of those policies worked.

PC: But Ardeshir asked the question that who do you think is going to benefit for from the lifting of sanctions. It is, to paraphrase you, the regime, that this isn't going to help ordinary Canadians and we're going to take where our pressure points.

ARDESHIR ZAREZADEH: Yeah, exactly.

PC: I'll let you go? Iâ€™ll let you go.

ARDESHIR ZAREZADEH: Of course. You know, the Iranian Supreme Leader Khamenei and the Revolutionary Guards control the economy in Iran. They are the ones getting the money. The US government releasing the billions of dollars to Iranian government that even John Kerry, he said, we already know that terrorist groups and Hesbollah in the area is going to get some of this money we are giving back to Iranian regime. But back to Soudehâ€™s points. They are prisoners jusst released from Iranian jails, like journalist Jason Rezaian. It's not because of the diplomatic talks. It's because of the deal. That's the result of the deal. The Canadian government, the previous government, shut down the embassy, put pressure on Iranian regime and that caused the real-- They made the Iranian regime to release Hamid Ghassemi-Shall, who was under this rule. This is the nature of the Iranian regime. You have to put pressure on them. These clerics donâ€™t understand negotiations. Even before Rouhani came to power, the supreme leader was planning to talk to buy some time. At the end Ahmadinejadâ€™s Tehran-- Go ahead. Sorry.

PC: I wanted to ask you and appreciate that there is a diversity of opinion and within the community as well. I want to ask, Joobin, what are you most looking forward to as the sanctions begin to be lifted?

JOOBIN BEKHRAD: What I'm looking forward to is to see Iran become even more prosperous for Iranians who have been so adversely affected by these economic sanctions that many of us who have been living in the West all our lives, myself included, sometimes [clears throat]- excuse me- can't fathom or really understand completely. I hope that some normality will return to their lives and that these pressures will be eased. Iâ€™m also hoping to see more of a dialogue between Iran and Canada, more normalized relations. At the same time that it's great to hear Dion say that sanctions are going to be lifted. I also-- At the same time we're hearing Dion still- and others, not only him- still use words like â€˜dangerousâ€™ or terms like, phrases like â€˜can't be trusted.â€™

PC: Yeah, mistrust of the regime.

JOOBIN BEKHRAD: When it comes to Iran-- And I think this is-- In doing that they might not realize it, but they're slamming an entire culture and an entire people and an entire nation. And if people have or governments have issues with other governments or certain individuals, they should not hold an entire people accountable and they should not demonize an entire people and they should not take measures against an entire people.

PC: Soudeh, what Joobin is talking about, is the perception that perception that many people have of Iran and youâ€™re hoping that will change. Soudeh, do you think that prosperity within Iran, could that lead to real political reform, which many people would say is desperately needed in Iran.

SOUDEH GHASEMI: That's something that I can't comment on. I personally believe anything that has to happen in Iran should be decided within the people of Iran. They have the power and the knowledge and the ability to decide for themselves. Weâ€™re, like, from outside of Iran. It's so hard to prescribe anything for the people in Iran. But I'm just going back to the some of the points that--

PC: You just have to be short. Weâ€™re almost out of time.

SOUDEH GHASEMI: Sure. I was going to go back the other issue, pressuring and closing embassies. Closing embassies just affected negatively people, regular people. There's no positive outcome of that. And the money going back to Iran--Just yesterday, Iran purchased 118 airplanes air planes. This could save a lot of lives. People, civil peopleâ€™s safety was in danger traveling from point A to Point B because of so many outdated airplanes crashed. So these are the points that I see and I think those are way more important [indecipherable].

PC: Ardeshir, I just have a few seconds left, but will prosperity lead to calls for political reform? Do you see the two potentially being linked?

ARDESHIR ZAREZADEH: No, I don't see that. When Zahra Kazemi, Iranian, sorry, Canadian journalist was murdered and killed in Iran, in jail there was open diplomatic relations between Canada and Iran. And since Rouhani came to power we see hundreds of executions, even they execute juvenile offenders and we see that they put lawyers and human rights defenders in jail behind the bars. And I'm not that optimistic. But I continue my work as human rights activist for the improvement of human rights situation in Iran. And I believe that the Canadians will it stand for human rights in Iran because Canada is known for its values. Itâ€™s a country promoting peace and human rights.

PC: I want to thank you all three for your different perspectives on this. Thank you very much for coming in.

SOUDEH GHASEMI: Thank you.

JOOBIN BEKHRAD: Thank you.

ARDESHIR ZAREZADEH: Thank you.

PC: Ardeshir Zarezadeh is Executive Director of the International Centre for Human Rights in Canada. Soudeh Ghasemi is an Iranian Canadian community activist. And Joobin Bekhrad is the editor of ReOrient Magazine. They were all with me here in Toronto. Well, we would like to hear your thoughts on the lifting of sanctions against Iran, whether you're an Iranian Canadian or not. You can send us an e-mail by going to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and clicking on the Contact link there. We are also on Facebook and our handle on Twitter is @TheCurrentCBC. My handle on Twitter is @piya. That is The Current for today. My name is Piya Chattopadhyay. Thank you so very much for lending us your year here on The Current.

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Jan. 29, 2016 episode transcript

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