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The Current Transcript for September 2, 2016

Host: Robyn Bresnahan

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Get up. Come on.

VOICE 2: I need a vacation.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Well, there you have it—even the Terminator needs a little R and R sometimes, but many of us work ourselves like machines even while we're on vacation. As summer comes to a close, we are taking a look at the importance of vacations. What is the ideal length of a holiday? Does a staycation have the same effect as a vacation abroad? And which province is the best at taking all of their vacation days? That is first up. And then—

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I was close to the end of my life and just feeling like I was a failure. And there were some people who convinced me that it was possible to make my life a work of art.

RB: Roy Henry Vickers is one of Canada's most renowned artists. We revisit our conversation with him from earlier this summer about his life, his art and his feelings about turning 70. I'm Robyn Bresnahan and this is the summer edition of The Current.

Benefits from vacation short-lived, research suggests

Guests: Roy MacGregor, Jessica de Bloom, Beverly Beuermann-King

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[Sound: Water lapping]

VOICE 1: It was a busy summer. We went to my sister's cabin. It was beautiful and they did some wakeboarding and frog and toad hunting.

VOICE 2: My summer vacation here is just enjoying the city. The amazing what Vancouver is, the mountains, the beaches, and hanging out around.

VOICE 3: I spent my summer holiday away from Vancouver. We went to Greece. My favorite thing about having a vacation is not having to be so scheduled.

VOICE 4: I mostly went to a lot of music festivals. The Blues and Roots festival in Burnaby, the folk festival. Yeah, it was mostly centred around music.

[Music: Banjo playing]

RB: Those are highlights from some people's summer vacation in Vancouver. Well, all of a sudden, September is here, the kids are back at school and it is time to say farewell to the lazy hazy days of summer. A good time to examine the benefits of taking a vacation, but what does the science actually say about how long that post-holiday glow lasts? And is a big chunk of time off better than shorter and more frequent vacations? We'll speak to someone who has studied all of that in just a moment, but first—a fellow whose writing has likely inspired many vacations across this country. Roy MacGregor is a columnist with The Globe and Mail and the author of multiple books on nature and canoeing in Canada. We have reached him today at his cottage on Camp Lake on the western edge of Algonquin Park in Ontario. Hello.

ROY MACGREGOR: Hi Robyn, how are you?

RB: Very well, thank you. How's your summer vacation going?

ROY MACGREGOR: Oh, I don't know. You know, it's funny—in June we always say that the bugs are the worst ever and come early September we always say it was the best summer ever. It’s always superlative, isn’t it?

RB: [Chuckles] You sound a little low about your vacation to be honest, Roy.

ROY MACGREGOR: I have this problem inside my head. Summer to me is like a death in the family when Labour Day rolls around. Labour Day is really Canada’s New Year, as you know. It's not January 1^st, it's Labour Day. That's when everything begins. You have to go back to work, you have to get the kids to school, you have to get organized. You have to start a fitness plan and you have to do all these things come Labour Day. And so, there's a feeling of loss there.

RB: Okay, so it’s the impending doom. It's not that you're not enjoying your vacation on the cottage.

ROY MACGREGOR: Oh my god, no.

RB: It's interesting, Roy, because you say that Canada is a nation of escape artists, that it is in our DNA. What do you mean by that?

ROY MACGREGOR: Well, apart from the First Nations, almost everyone who came here was escaping something, whether it was poverty or tyranny, it doesn't really matter what it was. So that I think it's in the bones and in the blood that comes—some time of the year, you want to run away. You want to just kind of put a stop on time and maybe you want to get away from the Internet, maybe you want to get away from traffic. We do it. And I think it's the pivotal moment of the Canadian experience and I'm hardly the first one who has said that. You know no country has as many lakes. No country has as much fresh water. And in this particular summer—for most of our country, not all parts of our country—but we really have had an extraordinary summer. The weather has just been amazing. You know I'm standing here right now looking out over a lake in which there's kind of a golden rim around the treetops on the far shore and you just know another lovely day is about to land on you.

RB: What is your favorite kind of escape, Roy?

ROY MACGREGOR: A canoe trip. A canoe trip that takes you far enough away that there's no access to Internet, telephones or anything. You're busy all day long. You have chores to do that are very simple, very straightforward. There's no intellectualizing, there's no bosses, there's no managers. It's just you and your duties. And there's no point in whining. If the weather turns bad, if the weather isn't bad—and it usually isn't bad—it’s glorious. And so—well, for almost all my life, it's been getting in a canoe and just heading off into the wilderness, not knowing what that next turn in the river is going to produce or not knowing what that sound in the distance is going to be, whether it's rapids or loon calling or whatever. It's almost like we are a country—we might be 150 years old but we're still being explored and all of us are in that same boat. It doesn't seem to matter where you go. You can't possibly know all of this huge vast country. So every time you go out, it's a new experience.

RB: And when you do get in that canoe, at what point do you start feeling the benefits of the vacation kicking in?

ROY MACGREGOR: Oh god, it takes a long time. It's probably two or three paddles. It happens instantly. It’s just bang. And I think you don't have to be a canoeist, you don't have to be going on canoe trips. You can be a camper, you can be anything. At some point in the road where suddenly—maybe for someone it's entering the Canadian Shield, maybe if you live in Saskatchewan, it's that first dip down into the Qu’Appelle Valley, or maybe it's that feeling of in Newfoundland where you suddenly start seeing the high hills and the barren rocks. It's that moment that in your mind goes wow, I'm back home. And we might call it home even though we don't live there.

RB: I hate to remind you of this because I don't want you to get down, but when you are in the process of heading back from a canoe trip, as you're disengaging from the wilderness and you start making your way back to civilization and everything that entails, what is that process like?

ROY MACGREGOR: Well, I think it's fine. I think you feel that you've done something that you need to do for mind and body and that now I'm ready to go again, you know? You have this incredible satisfaction that you did something very Canadian. [chuckles]

RB: [Chuckles] Do you think that the concept of holidays, do you find—I know that you've got kids yourself—is it changing?

ROY MACGREGOR: Oh yes. Yeah. Mostly through Wi-Fi—the national parks and here at Algonquin Park where I’m nearby—a lot of them have put in towers now so you can get reception and they’ll all say it's for safety reasons and that's part of the story. But the real reason is because kids don't want to go off anywhere where they can't have access to their video games. And that's a bit of a shame and that bothers me a lot, I know. But it’s reality, that’s the way it is. What can you do about it?

RB: Why does it bother you?

ROY MACGREGOR: Because I think kids should be out looking for toads. [laughs] And you know I say that from a very personal standpoint because we had young grandkids here a lot this summer and that was the highlight. Whenever they were asked what was the best part of summer, it was always finding toads. So you have to spend a lot of time telling them not to hold them tightly and to let them go at the end of their examination, looking at them and that. But you know that's got nothing to do with Wi-Fi. I don't even think you can go on YouTube and look up toad hunting.

RB: [Laughs] Well, you never know what you're going to get if you look at that. What about for you personally, Roy? What was the highlight of your summer holiday this year?

ROY MACGREGOR: Oh, it would be them, seeing the joy in their eyes. One of our son-in-laws is French, from France. And I remember standing at the back of the dock right here, right where I am right now. And at the same moment, he and his four-year-old son Raphael latched onto a bass off the end of the dock. And the hysteria that entailed this whole experience. And the little Raphael finally getting his bass on the dock and bragging that his was bigger than his dad’s. And the look in his dad’s eye of that ultimate Canadian experience, of the joy of the experience. And I have to add, they both let their bass go.

RB: Well, Roy, we appreciate you taking time out of your vacation to talk to us today. Do you see any loons in the distance as you're saying goodbye?

ROY MACGREGOR: We heard them just earlier. Don’t see any though but they'll be around later, that's for sure.

RB: Great to talk to you. Thanks very much, Roy.

ROY MACGREGOR: Thank you, Robyn.

RB: Bye-bye.

ROY MACGREGOR: Bye.

RB: That's Roy MacGregor. He's a columnist at The Globe and Mail and he was at his cottage on Camp Lake in Ontario. Our next guest has dedicated herself to researching the impact vacations have on us. Jessica de Bloom is a psychologist at the Institute for Advanced Social Research at the University of Tampere in Finland and that is where we have reached her. Hello.

JESSICA DE BLOOM: Hello.

RB: You've just been listening to Roy MacGregor there. Based on your research, what does his experience tell us about the benefits that we get from having a good holiday?

JESSICA DE BLOOM: Yeah. I think his story is very much about what we have also found in research. And we can also see what Roy describes, that this very strong peak right in the beginning of the holiday that people's well-being improves and they feel better. And towards the end of the holiday, it goes a little bit down when people start preparing for starting their work up again, maybe anticipating on all the e-mails waiting for them.

RB: So the benefits kick in very early in the vacation. I mean is there an actual point where your studies point out that we reach peak well-being?

JESSICA DE BLOOM: Yeah. In this one study that we have done, we followed people during long summer vacations, so about on average three weeks. And we could see there was this peak after about eight days. So that seems to be at least good to have one holiday per year that is longer than eight days so that you could reach that peak.

RB: It's very interesting, Jessica, because you've actually looked at the length of vacations and how they correlate to the benefits that we get from them. I'm wondering is it better to take one long chunk of vacation? Just say that you're somebody who has four weeks of vacation—is it better to take it all at once or is it better to take a number of mini vacations throughout the year?

JESSICA DE BLOOM: It seems that the benefits are quite comparable also for the short holidays, meaning you have a strong benefit during the holiday but after return to work, the effects fade away quite soon. And there's also the risk that you may have a bad holiday, you may get sick during the holiday, something may happen which just ruins your holiday. So that's why I usually recommend to not put all eggs in one basket and have only this one long holiday, but spread your days a little bit across the year.

RB: I’m curious about what you said there about the benefits of holiday fade away quite soon. How soon after a holiday do we go back to feeling just as stressed as we were before the holiday?

JESSICA DE BLOOM: It varies a little bit. Some earlier studies have found times to about two to four weeks that people still feel a little bit better than before the holidays. But in our studies, the effects were gone already in the first week when people started to work. So I think the conclusion is it's quite short in general.

RB: That's a bit depressing, is it not?

JESSICA DE BLOOM: Yeah, in the sense that people do not feel bad so they do not get depressed but they just feel as they felt before the holiday. And there's also research showing that if people would not go on holidays, that well-being decreases and they have even higher risk to get heart attacks if they do not go on holidays for a long time. So it still makes sense to go.

RB: But that is an important point because there are some people who cannot afford to take holiday. There are some people who work for themselves and they feel very bad about getting away, sthat they have too much work to do. So what do you say to people who actually don't have a specific amount of days or just, you know, simply can't afford to do it?

JESSICA DE BLOOM: Yeah. There’s actually only very few research done on staycations, so just staying at home during your holidays. But the studies that are there show that there is not a big difference between going away, going on a trip or staying at home. So also, when you just stay at home and maybe be a tourist in your own hometown, you can already have the benefits of a vacation. Like for example, doing a guided tour in your city or going for a swim in the morning, the things that you enjoy during a holiday abroad or travelling somewhere. So I think you can also get a lot of benefits by just taking for example, one or two days off.

RB: Well, Jessica, just stay on the line for a minute because we wanted to hone in on Canada and how we as a country vacation and this is something that Beverly Beuermann-King has studied. She is a resiliency and wellness strategist and I spoke to her yesterday from her home in Little Britain, Ontario and I began by asking her how many vacation days Canadians get on average.

BEVERLY BEUERMANN-KING: On average, we receive around 17 days but we're leaving some of those days on the table.

RB: How come?

BEVERLY BEUERMANN-KING: Well, generally there tends to be a couple of reasons. Some of them are around work. People just can't find the time to get away or there's too many deadlines, too many projects that are taking place. Sometimes it's because partners can't schedule the same schedule at the same time. So between spouses and children and going back to school and a number of different things, sometimes it's just hard to get away. And then sometimes people just feel like they would rather not because they can't afford it or there's a financial incentive for them to actually not take their vacation time.

RB: Does that surprise you that Canadians are leaving some of their vacation days on the table because certainly you have conversations with people and the envy seems to be Europe, right? They have much more vacation than we do, sometimes around five weeks and Canadians are always saying oh, I wish that I had what the Europeans do. Yet, it sounds like we're not using all of our vacation.

BEVERLY BEUERMANN-KING: Absolutely. And when we look at you know Canadians and their feelings around vacation, from the Expedia.ca vacation deprivation survey, Canadians are saying they're feeling vacation deprived and almost half of us are saying we wish we had more vacation time, yet we're still leaving about two days on the table. So it's this real dichotomy where we want more but we're not taking all of that we have.

RB: I'm wondering whether or not there are certain parts of the country that are better at taking their holidays than others.

BEVERLY BEUERMANN-KING: There are and it really fluctuates depending on what the economy's doing. In a lot of cases, over a number of years of that vacation deprivation survey, what we've seen is that Ontario seems to be one of the most vacation deprived. Sometimes it's actually out in the west coast, British Columbia. But the least vacation deprived from the Expedia.ca survey tends to be our east coast. They tend to have a better almost European sense of work-life balance.

RB: They know what they're doing out there in the east. [chuckles]

BEVERLY BEUERMANN-KING: They do. And you know it's valuing that time away from work, knowing that when you come back, you're refreshed, you’re rejuvenated and you're ready to go.

RB: What about when Canadians actually do take a vacation? How do they fare at disconnecting from work when they're on holiday?

BEVERLY BEUERMANN-KING: Many of us still take our technology with us and we tend not to disconnect. When I started doing the Expedia.ca surveys, we used to say you know don't connect, don't check emails, don't check your voicemails, but it's not realistic in this day and age. And so, really it's about getting control of that technology. If you're going to check your voicemails and your e-mails, make sure that you—you know maybe it's first thing in the morning, maybe it's the last thing at the end of the day—but it's not continuous all throughout the day to the point where you're actually not staying connected and not being able to reconnect with the people that you love the most.

RB: What do you mean when you say it's not realistic? Because many people would argue that actually a vacation if you're checking your work e-mails is not a vacation at all.

BEVERLY BEUERMANN-KING: It isn’t. But we are so used to being connected and especially when we talk about the younger generation. They've never known a time when they haven't had their phone in hand. So for some of us who are a little bit older, you know it's actually very easy to go on vacation, not check your messages through the day, know that things will be taken care of. But for some of our younger workers, not having a phone is almost foreign.

RB: You've been looking at how Canadians take vacations for years now. How do you see the trends evolving about how we think about vacation?

BEVERLY BEUERMANN-KING: I think there's a real awareness now around wellness and I think people are really understanding the benefits of taking vacation and being able to disconnect and get reconnected, maybe with family and friends. So we really do understand the value of it. We understand the value of it with regards to the happiness factor, when we talk about kind of overall satisfaction. I do think though—that with the economy and with the pressures and demands of the workplace—that it's actually even more difficult for some people to get away.

RB: And as a consultant on wellness, what is your advice to companies that hire you, where people are not using all of their vacation time?

BEVERLY BEUERMANN-KING: Really good progressive companies monitor vacation time and they monitor to make sure that people are taking their vacation time and reminding them the value of taking that time. So they're hoping to make sure that that works. We know that there is a value and that there's a positive impact on bottom lines when companies ensure that their employees are taking their vacation time.

RB: Oh, Beverly. I know we reached you while you're packing for your own vacation to Nashville. So I really appreciate your time and thanks so much. Good to talk to you.

BEVERLY BEUERMANN-KING: You're very welcome.

RB: That was Beverly Beuermann-King. She's a resiliency and wellness strategist who tracks vacation time that we take and she was in Little Britain, Ontario. Jessica de Bloom, you've been listening to that. You're still on the line from Finland. Are you surprised to hear that Canadians are not taking all of their holidays?

JESSICA DE BLOOM: I think it's very common in almost every country that some days may be left unused. Unfortunately.

RB: And why is that? I mean Beverly gave us some examples of why that is but many people, especially in Canada when they start out—for instance, in the federal government I think you start with two weeks vacation—they always look at Europe and they think oh, we wish that we had the five weeks that those Europeans had.

JESSICA DE BLOOM: Yeah. I'm not exactly sure why it is. I think Beverly gave a couple of very good reasons for that, that you’re just too busy to take up some free days or you may even get rewarded for not taking them.

RB: What about what she was saying about technology? That Canadians—I think there's a study that says six out of 10 find it very hard to disconnect when they're on vacation—is that across the board in your studies?

JESSICA DE BLOOM: Yes. We also looked at if people work during the holiday by using technology, and I have some colleagues doing research on the smartphone use, and it is indeed a danger that you may not get disconnected or disengaged from your work and you keep thinking about your work. And there is a lot of research showing that dismantled disengagement is really, really important to get good recovery from your work.

RB: So as most Canadians are returning to work after the summer holidays, Jessica, what is your top tip from all the studies that you have analyzed on vacations? How can Canadians get the most out of their vacation?

JESSICA DE BLOOM: I think including drama in their life in general, so not only during the holidays but also during evening hours and weekends. Keep these factors in mind and try to achieve highest levels.

RB: Great to talk to you. Thanks very much for joining us today.

JESSICA DE BLOOM: Thank you too.

RB: Okay, bye-bye.

JESSICA DE BLOOM: Bye-bye.

RB: That was Jessica de Bloom, a psychologist at the University of Tampere in Finland. And now we want to hear from you. What's the recipe for the best summer holiday you ever had? How did you manage to disconnect, relax? And how long did it take you to feel like you were still on vacation or did that post-holiday glow disappear within a matter of days? You can share with us your experiences by tweeting @thecurrentcbc or you can go to our Facebook page as well. You can also e-mail us by clicking on contact at www.cbc.ca/thecurrent. Well, coming up in our next half hour, Aboriginal painter Roy Henry Vickers explains how art helped him beat a life-threatening addiction. And Anna Maria Tremonti is back in her rightful spot in the host chair on Monday. She's going to join us following the news to give us a preview of what is to come on this season of the show. I'm Robyn Bresnahan and you are listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Sting]

Introducing our season-long project, The Disruptors

RB: Hello, I’m Robyn Bresnahan and you’re listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

RB: Coming up, famed Canadian artist Roy Henry Vickers shares the highs and lows of his life story. But first, a preview of what’s in store this season on The Current.

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[Music: Sci-Fi]

VOICE: The Disruptors.

RB: That is a theme we will be hearing a lot this year on The Current. It’s the signature tune for the new project this upcoming season, The Disruptors. And on this, the last day of the summer edition of The Current, host Anna Maria Tremonti is here to tell us what is coming up. Hello and welcome back, Anna Maria.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Thank you. Hi.

RB: So do tell us, what do you have in store with The Disruptors?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Well, Robyn, we’re living in an age of disruption, where new ideas and new technologies and new way of doing things are confronting the old ways. And some of that’s good. Some of it’s not so good. Some of it’s really exciting and some of it’s very frightening. Think about it. From Uber to ISIS to the movement and migration of people—as a society, we are reacting to this. We’re seeing people pushing back on various things that are changing because of the way our world is moving. So we’re seeing advances that will allow us to use our brain in ways we can barely imagine. We’re seeing social media that allows us to connect in different ways. And all of that starts to unseat what we know, what is established and around us, and that’s a disruption. There is a man, he’s an author. His name is Chris Kutarna. He’s a Canadian. He’s really looked at this. He calls it a new Renaissance. And he says we’re at the start of it. And if you look at when the Renaissance began, it was right around the time of Gutenberg. And if you look at when this new Renaissance begins, it’s right around the time of Zuckerberg and the change in information movement and things like that and everything that falls in place. And so we’re going to look at the people who are disrupting and the ideas and the things and the advances that are disrupting.

RB: And the technology that is disrupting.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Absolutely. And we’re going to do our own little project this season as well, with virtual reality, VR. We are going to be taking it to the radio and to digital. We are going to do a project about the Highway of Tears. You know what the Highway of Tears is. The very first edition of The Current, we had a documentary by Joan Webber about the Highway of Tears. There were six missing and murdered Indigenous women or girls listed because of that road. We know it’s increased. And as the inquiry of missing and Indigenous women and girls is underway and as we follow that, we will also be on the road, having discussions and using a virtual reality edition of The Current to bring people closer to understanding what that stretch of road has meant to people there in many ways. We’ll take it on the road. We’ll put it on the air. It’ll be online. That will unfold as the season begins.

RB: How do you do virtual reality on the radio?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: You gotta keep listening.

RB: Okay. Alright. A teaser. Next week, you are actually kicking off the season with a documentary looking at disruption south of the border. Tell us a little bit about that.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Okay. Well, no surprises there. We’re talking about the US election. I cannot be the only person who is fascinated with all of the interactions and what’s going on there. And the candidacy of Donald Trump—Donald Trump himself—is a disruptor or maybe he is a result of those who are afraid of disruption. But there is disruption in American politics going on right now. And I was on a road trip this summer. I was actually looking for bluegrass music and I started talking to people. And then I just wanted to talk to more Americans because I’m not only a political junkie, I’m really fascinated about how people think and how they see things. And I started asking people questions. Listen to a little bit of this.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I want to ask if you’re a Hillary man or a Donald man.

VOICE 1: [Chuckles] I would say I’m a Trump guy. Absolutely.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: What do you like about him?

VOICE 1: There’s always a third party there but we know that’s never going to work. [laughs] I agree with every word this man has ever said. I just am afraid he’s a little hot-headed so who knows how that’ll work out when it comes time to— [chuckles]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: You don’t agree with the hot-headed stuff.

VOICE 1: Well, I do. I just think a man in that position needs to not get redneck about it. That’s for in the parking lot with your friends. But yeah. I do agree with every word I’ve heard him say through the whole campaign so far, so.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: What appeals to you most about him?

VOICE 1: He kind of appeals to what America was 20 years ago, you know? What I guess the working side of America has always been. The good old boys, not taking no crap and fixing things and there’s right and wrong and no grey area. And I like that. Too many feelings involved these days. [laughs]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Robyn, could you hear the music behind him?

RB: Mhm.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I was in Appa-lach-ia. Not Appa-lay-sha. They say Appa-lach-ia in that part of Virginia along the Blue Ridge Mountains. And I talked to a lot of people. Real Trump supporters who mirrored what this man said. Other people who say I don’t know what I’m going to do. Other people who are going to vote for Hillary but they’re not sure. But what’s interesting to me is that regular folk in America, when you ask them no matter where they are on this, they’re far more interesting than those pundits who are yelling at each other on US cable. If you watch US cable you’d think everybody hates everyone. When you start to talk to them, they’ll stand next to each other and share opinions and you’ll hear a little bit of this bringing my road trip to the radio. So you’ll hear this next week.

RB: And you’ll hear some music too.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Mhm.

RB: Okay. And part of this is we’re not just driving this. We want listeners to drive the series as well. And throughout the summer, we’ve been asking people to write in with their stories of personal disruption. What kind of response have you had so far?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Well, a lot of people are feeling very disruptive. We’ve had—we’ve got more than 100 great stories already. Events that have challenged the way someone maybe views their world or their life, it may be an illness, a relationship, a surprise change in work. It runs the gamut, but you’ll start hearing those personal stories of disruption next week as well.

RB: Looking forward to it. Thanks very much, Anna Maria.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Thank you.

RB: That is Anna Maria Tremonti, the host of The Current and she will be back on Monday to launch the new season of the show. We will wind up today with one more highlight from The Current’s past season.

ENCORE: Artist Roy Henry Vickers on making art, beating addiction and turning 70

Guests: Roy Henry Vickers

SOUNDCLIP

Cataline wasn't his name. His name was Jean Caux. But he used the word Cataline. For instance, if there was a string of horses going along or mules on the trail and they’d come to a hill and there'd be about 10 of them up on this hill, they'd stop and get their wind when they got out of wind there. They'd all be standing there. Well then, that’s holding the whole darn train up. Cataline would be sitting back there and when they think about time for mules to start again he'd say hey there, Cataline. And the old mules would flip their ears back and forth and start then when he’d holler Cataline. So that’s the name he went by.

RB: That was Martin Starret in about 1970, talking about how a famous mule packer came to be called Cataline. His voice was recorded by CBC journalist Imbert Orchard, who travelled across the province gathering thousands of hours of tape from pioneers and Indigenous peoples. Those recordings have been important to many people, including Roy Henry Vickers, whose works of art can be found in galleries and museums around the world. Roy Henry Vickers is a Canadian artist, carver and author who lives in Hazelton, BC. For his 70^thbirthday, he released a book called Peace Dancer reflecting on his life. Here is his conversation with Anna Maria Tremonti back in June.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I'm wondering, as you listen to that, how were recordings like those important to you then, as you searched out your heritage, Roy Henry Vickers?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Well, when I was 16 years old, my family moved from Hazelton to Victoria. And we had lived in Hazelton from when I was nine years old. We moved from the village of Kitkatla to Hazelton, so horses became important to me and the land, being out on the land. So when I was in Victoria and came across those recordings, I listened to them over and over and over again. And they always kept me close to the north country and life was just about horses in the north country and fishing out on the ocean with my Grandpa. And when I got to Victoria, I came across discrimination for the first time in my life and I didn't know what it was. And when I discovered that it was people in the city who didn't know First Nations peoples, I started to look at myself differently and realize well, I guess I am a First Nations person and what is that? So my life became a journey of discovery of the Tsimshian and the Haida and the Kwagiulth, all of who are part of my ancestry. And so, that led me on a journey to be an artist, to teach people the culture and the art of the Northwest coast and here I am still doing it today.

AMT: And of course, you didn't start there with a career in art. At first, what were you doing? What were you working on?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: I was wanting to get through high school and get into the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and make my living riding horses all over the world. And I failed my medical in Victoria. At the age of 19, it was discovered that I am partially colour blind to all colours. And in those days, you had to be five-foot ten and in perfect health. And someone who is partially colour blind was not in perfect health. And it destroyed the dreams that I had from the time I was a little child. And so I became an artist, colour blind and all.

AMT: You were a firefighter at one point too though, weren’t you?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: I was. I was. My art teacher William West at the time said Roy, what do you plan to do now? And I said, well, I'm going to make my living as an artist. I guess I'll go to university and study fine art. And he said well, do an old man a favour and don't study fine art. If you have to go to university, study anything but fine art. And I asked him why he would say that because he was an art teacher and he said that's exactly my point. I wanted to be an artist. I went through the whole program and I got my Master's in art and by then I was married with children and had to get a job and I became a teacher. So, if you have the fortune to find out who you are and create images from that special place—because every human being is special—then you may be creating something that only you can create. And you will know when that happens because people will come up to you and say I was out fishing the other day looking at the water and I saw your water, or I was looking at the sun going down and I saw one of your sunsets. And when you hear that, you will know that you are creating impressions on people and helping them to see the world the way you see it. And I've heard that thousands of times in 42 years as an artist.

AMT: That people say I see your water, I see your clouds?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Yeah. And that desire to express myself eventually led me to work with something fearful, and that was colour and sunsets and blue skies and green. And how am I going to do that if I'm partially colour blind?

AMT: I was just going to ask you—how do you do that if you’re partially colour blind?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Well, I just paint what I see and apparently people like it.

AMT: That is a great answer. So, before we go further on the art, what happened to firefighting? You were a firefighter for a while, were you not?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: I was. Of those seven years, every month someone in the fire department said to me hey, chief, I don't know why you don't make your living as an artist. You're wasting your talent working here in the fire department. So I heard that over and over again and after seven years, in 1973, I finally got a leave of absence and I went to art school in Hazelton, of all places, and began studying the traditional designs of the Northwest coast.

AMT: When did your career really take off?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: As soon as I left Ksan in 1974, the very first pieces that I did sold out. And so in two weeks, I made more money than I was making in the fire department in a year. And so that gave me the courage or the knowledge that I was going to be able to do this. But in 1987, an original painting called A Meeting of Chiefs was given to Queen Elizabeth here in Vancouver and that's when everything changed.

AMT: Well, you are at the dinner with Queen. It’s a pretty big moment because your work has been chosen to give to the Queen.

ROY HENRY VICKERS: And it sat on a tripod and when they sang God Save the Queen, I did what I'm doing right now. I just broke down. I couldn't believe that I was singing God Save the Queen and there she was.

AMT: Hmm.

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Yeah.

AMT: But what we couldn't tell, if we were looking around in that room with you in the tuxedo and your emotions, that something else was going on. What was going on in your life?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: I was struggling. I was struggling with the notoriety or the success. And from 1987 to 1992, I went through three marriages. And in 1992, my most successful year as an artist making a living, the most money I had ever made, I was close to the end of my life and just feeling like I was a failure, totally. And there were some people who convinced me that it was possible to make my life a work of art. And so I've been working at that ever since.

AMT: You were struggling with addiction, huh?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Yeah, yeah.

AMT: And you kept creating?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Oh, creation and inspiration were my life rings, month after month, for many years.

AMT: And when did you finally reach out to get help?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: 1992. On Valentine's Day, I hit the end of my rope. And I have a wonderful sister, Patricia, Dr. Patricia June Vickers, doctor of psychology in education, and she was the one that steered me to a place called The Meadows in Arizona and I went down there and began a journey of recovery and rediscovery.

AMT: And what did you learn about yourself in that process?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: I learned that I was a beautiful person, that I could stand in the strength and the truth and the beauty that my ancestors have given me and be the person that I was meant to be in this world.

AMT: And how are you doing now?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: I'm doing very well. I'm assured that at 70 years of age, if I have 30 more years to live, that that time is going to go by so fast because there is so much to do and so much to share and sharing the stories and the legends and my story are healing. There's a saying that the ointment of the healer is telling stories. So if I'm going to be a healer to myself, then I share my story with those around me. And I have been doing this long enough to have met people who heard me 10 years ago or 15 years ago and helped them to change their lives and they've come up to me and told me in person.

AMT: And stories and storytelling and creating art keeps you in the place you need to be, so that the addiction can be kept away?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Well, addiction is what people turn to when they are not comfortable with their emotions. And so, the addict is someone who is trying to get away from their emotions. I don't want to be away from my emotions. Fear teaches me that something, there is some danger present, and when I process the fear, I'm given wisdom. Pain helps me realize that there is a pain that everyone carries and the more that I work at knowing where the pain comes from, the more healing comes to me. And the more healing that comes to me, the more healing I have to give to others. And that's what life is about, is giving love and respect to the world around us.

AMT: I want to ask about stories because they are so important in your telling of stories, and now you have a new book, Peace Dancer. Tell us about the legend told in this book.

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Well, the people had lost their way and there was an example of a young boy who was trapping birds and he trapped this crow and pulled feathers from its wings and he took a line and attached it to the crow's foot and let it go to see if it could fly. And he kept doing this ‘til crow couldn't fly anymore. And then he laughed and made jokes about it and left the crow to die on the beach. And as the story goes, the Creator—Sm'ooygit ts'm laxhaga is what we call God—and Sm'ooygit ga ts'm laxhaga literally means the chief of the heavens or the chief in the sky. And Sm'ooygit ga ts'm laxhaga looked at this and was angered and brought a storm. And the storm came and the rains came and the village was flooded and the people got in their canoes and they went to the closest mountain to the village, Anchor Mountain, and they anchored there. And they cried and they prayed and they cried and they prayed and they asked why is this happening? And as the story was told to me, this old lady fell asleep, tired from her praying and when she fell asleep, she had this vision. And the vision was these people who had lost their love of the land, their love of their ancestors, the love of the old ways, the respect for the land, to take care of our Mother Earth so she can take care of us. And so, they promised to return to the laws of the land. The flood, the storm went away and all of the birds that were flying in the rain and their feathers were falling to the waters because they were bumping into each other, the Creator looked at this and said why should these birds suffer because of the misgivings of the wrong ways of the people? And now they've promised to change their ways. So peace came back to the world. And when this happened, after they got back and they rebuilt the village, the people decided that they would create a dance that would be danced forever at every potlatch and the dance was called [alternate language], which literally means the real healer and it would be a chief who is a healer who was chosen to do this dance where you shake the eagle down out of your headdress to remind the people of the feathers that were falling to the lands, to the waters when the flood happened and never to go back, to always stay in the love of the land and respect for the world around us.

AMT: Why did you choose that story?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: It's a beautiful story and it's as important today as it ever has been. Maybe it’s even more important to share with the world today because we, with all of our technology, as people on the earth we have the ability to bring destruction to this little blue planet that we live on.

AMT: You have your own experience with a falling feather.

ROY HENRY VICKERS: I do and that experience brought me to the ability to put my shyness aside and my introspection aside and use my voice to speak as I'm speaking here to whoever is listening out there. It was the year of my recovery and I had been through many things and I was out on the ocean and going into this little place and an eagle came out of the fog and over my boat and I whistled. I made an eagle call to it. And it turned and as it turned, it dropped a feather. And I decided that I could get my boat underneath that feather and catch that feather. And as I reached out to grab it, it went over top of my hand and landed on my chest. And I put my hand over the feather and as I pulled it away from my chest, I looked at the white tail feather of a mature bald eagle. And I discovered that that feather was for me to begin to speak in the world. Because in our culture, when the feather is handed to you it's time for you to speak. So I heard this voice in my mind: it's time for you to speak, Roy. That's why the eagle gave you the feather. And you are an eagle. You were born into the eagle clan. And I made a deal, at that time, and said well, if people will ask me, I will speak. But I always used to say a picture’s worth a thousand words and if you want to hear what I have to say, you go look at my pictures. And that all came to an end in 1992 when that feather landed on my chest and I promised to use my voice.

AMT: Sometimes you need a thousand words.

ROY HENRY VICKERS: [Laughs] Yes, that's true.

AMT: So, Roy Henry Vickers, what do you want us to know? After all you've been through and the changes you made and the stories and the art that you create, you find some peace and a way forward with that. What should we think about?

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Well, I know that peace comes from knowing that you are being the best person that you can be on the face of this earth. I know that money cannot buy happiness. Happiness comes from the knowledge that you are being loving and respectful to the world around you each day. I know that there is only one race of human beings on this little blue planet and racism is an ignorant term that's used day after day and it perpetrates a difference between us, when we are all one family and we are children of Mother Earth. And the more we can understand that, the less there will be problems in this world.

AMT: Roy Henry Vickers, it is wonderful to talk to you. Thank you.

ROY HENRY VICKERS: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

RB: That was Roy Henry Vickers. He is an artist and author of Peace Dancer and he spoke to Anna Maria Tremonti in June. If you want to see some of his works of art, they’re up on our website now. They’re simply gorgeous. The website is www.cbc.ca/thecurrent. Well, that is it for our show today. Do stay tuned if you can to CBC Radio One for the final episode of Ripple Effect with Anna Maria Tremonti. Today’s episode explores what the rise of artificial intelligence means for the human race. And coming up on Monday, Anna Maria is back here to launch The Current’s new season. I’m Robyn Bresnahan. It’s been a pleasure being with you for the past two weeks. Thank you very much for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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September 2, 2016 full episode transcript

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