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The Current Transcript for September 19, 2019

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I attended an end of Year Gala where the theme was Arabian Nights. I dressed up in Aladdin costume and put makeup on. I shouldn't have done that. I should've known better. But I didn't. And I'm really sorry.

LAURA LYNCH: The makeup. Justin Trudeau is wearing in the photo from 2001 is brown face. The picture resurfaced courtesy of Time magazine and its thrust the liberal leaders campaign into turmoil. Last night aboard his campaign plane Trudeau tried again and again to limit the damage.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Now I recognize it was something racist to do and I am deeply sorry. Obviously I regret that I did it and I am deeply sorry for it. I regret it deeply. [French speech]. I deeply regret that I did that and I'm really sorry did it. And I apologize for it. [French speech]. I'm apologizing to Canadians.

LL: We will get the latest from the campaign trail and from two political advisers Shuvaloy Majumder and Omar Khan. That's first up today. Also three trailblazing women the, trimates whose study of primates influenced a new generation of Canadian scientists. And the aftermath of Israel's elections; the power struggle over who will lead the country. But we begin with the political fallout from an Arabian Nights party 18 years ago. I'm Laura Lynch and this is The Current.

'Bad judgment' or harmful pattern? Strategists weigh in on Justin Trudeau 'brownface' photo scandal

Guests: Shuvaloy Majumder, Omar Khan

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: I was extremely shocked and disappointed when I learned of Justin Trudeau's actions this evening. Wearing brown face as an act of open mockery and racism. It was just as racist in 2001 as it is in 2019. What Canadians saw this evening is someone with a complete lack of judgment and someone who is not fit to govern this country.

ELIZABETH MAY: The nature of that photo is that, had it been a different candidate, that the Liberal Party would be now saying you have to step down. But obviously this is a very different circumstance. It's their leader.

JAGMEET SINGH: The kids that see this image, the people who see this image are going to think about all the times in their life that they were made fun of, that they were hurt, that they were made to feel less because of who they are. When I talked all the kids out there, all the folks who live this and now are growing up and are still feeling the pain of racism, you might feel like giving up in Canada. You might feel like giving up on yourselves. I want you to know that you have value. You have worth and you are loved and I don't want you to give up on Canada. And please don't give up on yourself.

LL: That was NDP leader Jagmeet Singh and before that Green Party Leader Elizabeth May. And of course conservative leader Andrew Scheer reacting to news last night about the 2001 high school yearbook photo of Justin Trudeau who was a teacher there at the time dressed as Aladdin and covered in brown face makeup. Tom Parry is a senior reporter with the CBC who has been travelling on the liberal leaders campaign plane. We reached him in Winnipeg. Hi Tom.

TOM PARRY: Hi.

LL: Can you describe the atmosphere on the plane yesterday?

TOM PARRY: I'll start by describing the atmosphere on the bus. We'd just come from a rally in Truro, Nova Scotia. We were driving to the Halifax Airport and that's when this story broke. And it was just pandemonium on the bus trying to find out whether we're going to be hear [unintelligible] demanding we've got to hear from Justin Trudeau. So we got to the airport. We all got on board the plane. We were told by Liberal officials. Okay he's going to speak. We got up to the front of the plane or around the midpoint of the plane there's a curtain that separates the front of the plane where Justin Trudeau was sitting. We're all waiting there. Reporters, cameras, microphones and finally Justin Trudeau emerges and he begins, well, as you heard in that tape this series of apologies, just begging forgiveness from Canadians or asking forgiveness. I don't think begging forgiveness. Asking forgiveness from Canadians for what he did saying that he didn't think it was racist at the time but he certainly realizes it's racist now. And I think it was just a sense of almost disbelief amongst the people on the plane. Like what's happening here. We just couldn't believe that that this was actually going on. But it was. And now Justin Trudeau's dealing with the fallout.

LL: And also during the news conference he admitted that it had happened before.

TOM PARRY: Yes that's right. My colleague David Cochrane asked him whether other incidents were you'd worn blackface before. He said there was which I think it made it seem even more bizarre. He talked about this case when he was in high school where he dressed up and did Dale, a song, and actually a photograph has emerged from that now. So you have to think that Justin Trudeau knew this photograph existed. And that's why he was admitting to this at this point. There were a lot of tough questions for Justin Trudeau. The Conservatives have been saying about him you know he's not as advertised and one of the questions was well how do you now say to people that that's not true. And he just kept apologizing saying that he realizes that this was wrong. I guess he's going to have to wait and see whether voters are willing to forgive this incredible misstep, going back to 2001 and still electing their prime minister.

LL: One of the things I heard you pressing him on was when did he know that this story was going to come out. Did you get any sense of how much advance warning he had?

TOM PARRY: Well I think that he probably found out that this was going to drop in the last couple of days. The question that I asked him was I said you've known about this since you were 29 years old. So when did you tell the people around you? And I eventually got an answer out of him saying well this was just recently. So from that I take he's been sitting on this since he was 29 years old, maybe hoping it wasn't going to come out. Now that it did come out he's got to deal with it. And one of the other reporters there was asking that well you know you've got people of color in your government, in your cabinet. What are you doing? And he said well I'm going to reach out to them. I'm going to be talking to them. So he's going to be trying to make amends with these people who maybe think this might be a little offensive, maybe not in type with the with Mr. Trudeau. He's got to build fences with the team around him. And he's of course had build fences with the Canadian voters.

LL: It's also about him calling out other campaigns and other candidates for their missteps on social media. Is he in a position to do that anymore?

TOM PARRY: I don't know. You know it's funny because going to that moment last night you would think that the Conservatives were having a more difficult week than Justin Trudeau. The Liberals had been digging up old social media posts, questionable friendships, things like that. Just a day or so before when Maxime Bernier from the People's Party of Canada was announced that he was going to be getting into the debates. Justin Trudeau said well I look forward to debating Mr. Bernier and call it his intolerance. I don't know how he's going to do that now. I don't know how. Certainly that the Liberals if they've got more opposition research on conservative candidates they either have to put that away - well I don't know how they come out and and start pointing fingers at other people now that their leader has- you know these photographs have emerged. It's going to be very difficult for them to say 'you're intolerant' when they've got these photos going back of Justin Trudeau.

LL: So have you got any sense yet Tom, and you may not, of how that the Trudeau campaign is going to shift its agenda today?

TOM PARRY: No. We got into Winnipeg last night as I said we did that news conference. We were had some time to file. The plane took off. We flew to Manitoba. We're at a hotel now. I don't think- Justin Trudeau was not at the same hotel. We're waiting for word from the Liberals. But what's going to happen today, there was supposed to be a campaign event. We were told last night probably not. We're not going to hear anything before 11:00 Manitoba time this morning. What's going to happen? Hard to know. You've got to think that it's going to be very difficult for Justin Trudeau to just try to carry on as if nothing happened. Every question he's going to get today. Maybe in the coming days is going to be about this. So I don't know this I've not heard anything there's been no emails no contact from the Liberal campaign this morning to say this is what's going on. But you've got to think that they're rethinking, at least today, maybe rethinking the rest of the campaign, how are they going to deal with this today and in the coming weeks.

LL: Tom you've covered a lot of campaigns. Can you recall a revelation like this in past campaigns?

TOM PARRY: You know I was we were on the plane last night after we'd taken off and all of us were talking about this. You know I've covered a few federal elections I've covered provincial elections referendum and I honestly I can't think of anything I can't think of anything like this the closest I can think of and this is still miles apart from this was I remember when Belinda Stronach crossed the floor to join Paul Martin's government. I was outside the news conference Stronach getting out of the limousine and it was shocking but not as shocking as this. This is just so out of- When you think about Mr. Trudeau's brand. When you think about what he is what you know what he portrays himself as a politician; you know inclusiveness; multiculturalism, whole thing. This is just so out of step that it really- I've never seen anything like this in my time covering provincial or federal politics.

LL: Tom thanks so much for talking to us this morning. We'll pay attention to your reports today.

TOM PARRY: All right thank you.

LL: Tom Parry is a senior reporter with the CBC. He is traveling with Liberal leader Justin Trudeau's campaign now. It is safe to say that the Trudeau campaign is in serious damage control mode. And to help give us a picture of what the road will be ahead. I'm joined now by two political strategists Shuvaloy Majumder is a former policy director to conservative foreign ministers under Stephen Harper between 2011 and 2015. Omar Khan is a Liberal strategist and a vice president of public affairs with Hill and Knowlton Strategies. Hello to you both.

SHUVALOY MAJUMDER: Morning.

OMAR KHAN: Good morning.

LL: Shuvaloy Majumder let's start with you. What was your reaction when you first saw that photo yesterday?

SHUVALOY MAJUMDER: I had a hard time believing it to be true initially and when I did discover it to be true. I find it fairly jarring. It took me a few minutes to realize what 2001 was like because I have a general disposition to say people do silly things in their youth and maybe there are forgivable. But in 2001 we were talking about a world in which we saw a deep conversation about the status of race whether it be racial profiling or the events later on in the year of 9/11 in which you saw a Republican president reach out to Muslim community members. Earlier that year he had been elected by making history by talking about outreach to Latinos in Spanish. And you saw a world that had actually come a fair ways forward when it came to having a discussion about equality of opportunity and race in society. So to think of a 29 year old school teacher who would act in such a horrific way was deeply upsetting, and not necessarily even from my own perspective but from that of my nephews and my nieces who will now look at Canada's twenty third prime minister and indelibly be reminded that this is what he looks like.

LL: Omar khan what was your reaction to the photo?

OMAR KHAN: So initially shock like Shuv followed by a little bit of anger, to be honest followed by regret because I do know Mr. Trudeau personally and I know him not to be what is represented in that photo. You know I've worked with him for previously in Ottawa and I have campaigned for him in several capacities over the last number of years. But you know at the end of the day, you know after all of those waves of emotions passed, I'm left regretful primarily because I grew up in this country and in the 1980s in a community that wasn't the most diverse spectrum as perhaps it is today. And I know the tinge of being called the P word and being ashamed of your skin color. And that does burn deeply. But, after having said all of that, this is a government and a prime minister that have put issues around diversity and inclusion at the top of their agenda and have been quite aggressive in that regard when it comes to things like welcoming refugees to this country, when it comes to things like boosting the rate of immigration, promoting immigration as an economic driver in this country. So I don't want us to go back. I want us to be able to build on that and it's going to be incumbent upon Mr. Trudeau to earn the forgiveness of Canadians every single day for the rest of this campaign because really what is at stake for this country is too great.

LL: What did you think then about the way he handled things last night?

OMAR KHAN: You know I think he did the best he could. He came out and he apologized unequivocally. And he should have. What he did in 2001 was wrong. That being said I don't think he did it with ill intent perhaps bad judgment at the time.

LL: Well he himself said he himself says it was racist.

OMAR KHAN: I agree. But you can you can do something racist sometimes without having the intent to be or without and without necessarily knowing that your action is racist. I think I think we're all sometimes guilty of ingrained bias even though we're not aware of it. But look at the end of the day it was inappropriate. It was wrong. And it was right for him to apologize.

LL: Shuvaloy Majumder what do you think of how he responded?

OMAR KHAN: Listen you know I know Omar well and I think that kind of hurt is something that a lot of people of color have grown up with, especially if you are you - know I was 21 in 2001. It's not so much what he responded with that bothers me. It bothers me that this is a prime minister who has been [unintelligible] around the world and here at home. What he's done is domestically damaging and globally embarrassing. And it speaks to a pattern of events that's not just isolated to 2001. It was reflected again in how he caricatured the costumes, the traditional attire of Indian origin people in India itself. It goes back to the beginning of his ascendancy as Liberal leader when he opportunistically went in to step into a boxing ring with an indigenous senator and later in media talked about how he found that visual to be appealing. And later in life into his tenure as a prime minister unceremoniously fired an indigenous female minister for standing up to him and telling him the truth. It's his whole brokerage of identity that the modern party has been doing, the modern Liberal Party has been doing under Prime Minister Trudeau's leadership, at the expense of a genuine debate of ideas and of the values that bring us together as Canadians. Values of pluralism. Values of decency. That's where I think this is where Canadians will be right to ask the Liberal leader from now until the end of the campaign, you know, who are you for real. Are you somebody who really stands up for the things that Omar just mentioned, that Omar believes in, that I think many Canadians believe in? Or have you been masquerading around in the name of these causes while at your heart you've been putting on a show for Canadians for the last several years?

LL: Well we know what the Conservative leader Andrew Scheer thinks. He was pretty clear last night when he said that he believes that Trudeau is unfit to govern. Shuvaloy Majunder what did you think of Scheer'sposition on this especially after he said that when it comes to his own candidates if they apologize and accept that they made a mistake, he can accept that.

SHUVALOY MAJUMDER: Listen for people who've been running campaigns for a while now, you can't think of a single candidate for whom this story would have come out and not been fired instantaneously in any political party. And so I do think he goes straight to the judgment of Justin Trudeau. It goes straight to the question of his own personal integrity, and the sincerity with which he carries the arguments that come out of his lips. It's hard to know if he fully appreciates just how hurtful he can be to ordinary people. And I think that's a really honest question to be asking about the quality of Canadian leaders.

LL: Omar Khan what do you say to that?

OMAR KHAN: Well look you know it was clearly a mistake. It was clearly inappropriate it was clearly bad judgment. I know Mr. Trudeau. Like I said I have worked with him. He is not what was represented in those photos today. I don't think he was back then. I think it was clearly an error in judgment. But he did stand up and he took responsibility and he did apologize. You know this isn't about Mr. Scheer today. This is about Mr. Trudeau's actions. But I will just point out that you know Mr. Scheer Time and again has refused to apologize for his own actions speaking out at rallies where there was clearly bigoted, where there was clear--.

SHUVALOY MAJUMDER: Omar. This is beyond the pale. This beyond the pale, Omar.

OMAR KHAN: Shuv, what I'm saying is the prime minister has apologized. And I think all politicians, regardless of political stripe, when they make a mistake that can be hurtful to others should do the same thing.

SHUVALOY MAJUMDER: I'd like to see that happen with Jodi Watson-Raybould. I'd like to see him apologize to her for what he did for what the ethics commissioners have said has documented well that he has done inappropriately to her.

LL: Omar Khan, if you were giving the Prime Minister advice right now on how to handle this moving forward what would you tell him?

OMAR KHAN: Well it is going to be a tough day. It's probably going to be a number of tough days. I think that he needs to come out of his shell a little bit in this campaign. I think he needs to be more accessible to Canadians and the media so they can see the real Justin Trudeau right. The real Justin Trudeau is the person who has been fighting to put diversity, inclusion and equal opportunity at the front of the political and policy agenda of this country throughout his government. There has been damage done to his brand. He's going to have to work very hard every day between now and the end of this campaign and perhaps for the rest of his political career to re earn that trust.

LL: Is he the best person to be leading the party right now?

OMAR KHAN: I think that he is the leader of this party. He he took over this party when it when all the pundits had written it off. He and his team rebuilt it into a winning machine. And look we have a number of weeks to go until the end of this campaign. He's going to have to definitely rally his caucus and cabinet today and over the next few days. I'm encouraged to hear that yesterday he was making calls to key caucus members. I encourage him to continue to do that throughout today and in the next few days, because maintaining that cohesion within his caucus will be quite critical.

LL: Shuvaloy Majumder, what do you see? Is there is there a way for Trudeau to actually go forward with this and put it behind him?

SHUVALOY MAJUMDER: It's a it's a big question Laura because it's such a big it's such a big failing that he's had in the course of his tenure as prime minister liberal leader. And it has been affirmed that he was this way as a 29 year old school teacher. So I think it's a really uphill battle for him. And I think it's going to take a lot of courage on behalf of the Canadian Press, Canadians themselves, to think through carefully whether this person this individual really champions the values they care about or individuals like Andrew Scheer or Jagmeet Singh are better representatives.

LL: Gentlemen I thank you both very much for your insights today.

OMAR KHAN: My pleasure.

LL: Shuvaloy Majumder is a former Conservative policy director Omar Khan is a Liberal strategist. Well the CBC News is coming up next. Then we turn our attention to the trimates.

SOUNDCLIP

There's something about orangutans. I spoke to my soul and it still does.

A Canadian is one of three primatologist credited with inspiring a whole new generation of female scientists. And we'll hear about a new documentary that tells their story. I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to The Current.

Trailblazing female primatologists

Guests: Mark Starowicz, Caitlin Starowicz, Julia Badescu

LL: Hello I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to The Current.

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LL: Still to come we'll hear about the latest disinformation to emerge in this election campaign. But first three women set out to understand the great apes that ended up achieving so much more.

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Well I'd gone to Africa hoping to live with wild animals and write books about them. The crazy notion of a young girl who hadn't even been to college, going to live in the forest with apes. Unheard of. Ridiculous.

LL: It might have seemed ridiculous at the time but that trip into the forest led to decades of studying and living with chimpanzees for Dame Jane Goodall. Then there's Dian Fossey.

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The trail that we use is an old elephant and Buffalo trail. We leave all signs of civilization behind and the trail line into the heart of the mountain land.

LL: She ended up living and dying among the mountain gorillas of Rwanda.

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My love of orangutans grew out of my curiosity an urge to understand where we came from where we're going and how we fit into the universe.

LL: Canada's own Birute Galdikas is still studying the orangutans of Borneo and trying to save their rainforests. These three women are considered the world's leading primatologist known as the trimates. Goodall, Fossey and Galdikas have spawned a new generation of female scientists who make primatologist their focus. A documentary airing Friday on the nature of things tells their story. She Walks with Apes is co-directed by Mark Starowicz and his daughter Caitlin Starowicz. They're both in studio with me. Julia Badescu is a primatologist and an associate professor in anthropology at l'Universite de Montreal. She's featured in the film and joins me from Montreal. Hello to you all.

MARK STAROWICZ: Hi.

CAITLIN STAROWICZ: Hello. Thank you for having us.

JULIA BADESCU: Hi.

LL: Mark let's go back to the 60s and the 70s for a moment because you know you and I were both around then. How ground-breaking was it to have these three women take on the study of primatologist then?

MARK STAROWICZ: Oh totally ground-breaking and Jane Goodall's case, there were almost no studies of chimpanzees except in captivity and some fairly sad cases and so she was totally pioneering. What I also think, seeing with the orangutans and the gorillas, I also think of these three women as pioneers of the whole environmental movement of the modern consciousness about the global habitat and there are others, but these were the real pioneers of our sense of the universe and the world today.

LL: They're all linked though by Lewis Leakey. Remind us who he was and the impact he had on these--.

MARK STAROWICZ: Lewis Leakey was a colorful cranky old goat. He's been described who was a palaeontologist the famous paleontologists in his day who scraped the African hills for the origins of man, fascinated by the origins of man. You know we're a very very lonely species. You know there's 700 species kinds of rodents all other human species have died off, you know, Neanderthals, homofloresiensis. They keep finding other humans that coexisted with us but we're all that's left. So our closest living cousins, go back sort of one step, are the great apes. To study them is to study us in some ways.

MARK STAROWICZ: And what is his link to the three women?

MARK STAROWICZ: He recruited every one of them. Jane Goodall began as a secretary and then he came up with the idea that she should study the chimpanzees at Gumby National Park in Tanzania. Then he recruited Dian Fossey at a lecture in Kentucky and then he recruited Birute Galdikas. Outrageous ideal: Go live with chimpanzees though you're in good hands and the gorillas. I mean go literally live among them. That was like interplanetary travel. And then of course he proved to be a visionary.

LL: Caitlin; Goodall, Fosseu and Galdikas quickly became media stars. What kind of attention did they get back in the day?

CAITLIN STAROWICZ: Well originally they were absolutely patronized. Jane Goodall was in the media as blonde goes to live with chimps. Me, Jane. You Tarzan. Me like apes better. And nobody took them seriously because of course they were women and they were trailblazers. And I think it's a real credit to how science has developed that now we are recognizing them for the absolute geniuses that they are, because they really are changing the face of not only primatology but science as a whole.

LL: And eventually though they were taken seriously. How did their work inspire the public's imagination and later on empathy toward primates?

CAITLIN STAROWICZ: While Jane Goodall was the first person to posit that chimps had - chimps and not only chimps but the great apes in general - have emotions, have personalities, have feelings before they were thought of as a automatons. That they did not share many of the human traits that we do but through their research, also Diane and Birute, we have made huge strides and the public now recognizes that they share not only 98 to 96 percent of our DNA but also so many human traits such as emotion and feelings.

LL: And Julia, I want to play a clip from the documentary about what happened the first time you met Jane Goodall.

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When I was about 12 years old my stepdad took me to see Jane Goodall. I just was so excited and loved it. And then afterwards I lined up to get an autograph for a poster that I had bought. As I was getting closer and closer to our Jane Goodall. I was thinking what am I going to tell her? What will I say? You know you're my hero. And she looked up at me with those big eyes and I instantly burst into tears. She signed it and I just ran away. I was so embarrassed and regretted not having just told her how much I admired her.

LL: I can hear the emotion in your voice there. How do you look back on that time now?

JULIA BADESCU: It's so long ago but as I was listening to the clip I'm actually looking at the poster right now. I'm in my office and it's hanging up on the wall. It's an interesting thing to look back on because it's almost like a different person. They're sort of the beginning of my dream to become a primatologist. I think I had a lot of regret for not being more brave and talking to Jane for many years. But now I look back more with compassion because I knew how much it meant to me to get that autograph from Jane Goodall.

LL: Compassion toward your younger self. You subsequently did meet her in your work. And what strikes you most about her?

JULIA BADESCU: I've met her several years later when she added a little personal note onto the poster when I was about 24 and then I met her again at a conference and I was 27. I think, I mean she's sort of a calm, well composed person. She's constantly surrounded by people who want to talk to her and to express how much they love her. I mean everyone adores her. So she's a little intimidating because of that I think. But still I look up to her a lot.

LL: What did she read in the poster?

JULIA BADESCU: Well actually during the signing they said unfortunately Jane Goodall can't personalize anything that she signs. She's just going to sign her name. And because I brought her the poster that already had the signature on it that I got from when I was 12 she personalized it. So she wrote for 'Julia, love' above the signature.

LL: Something you treasure I'm sure.

JULIA BADESCU: Oh yeah for sure.

LL: Julie, because you're you have you are working in the field. I need you to tell me and our listeners what is it like to be in the presence of a chimpanzee.

JULIA BADESCU: Well to be in the presence of any non-human primates is remarkable because even some of the monkeys and lemurs there's a bit of us in them as well. But to be around chimpanzees the first time I think at first it was a little bit scary because they're so big and loud. But then of course there's just so much to recognize in their face. There's such a recognition of humanity in chimpanzees that being around them for those first few hours, those first few days when I first started studying chimpanzees was just I mean the best; the best time, the best few days of my life. And then of course the best parts of primatologist actually learning the individuals that you're studying, learning their names, and it takes a little while to recognize their faces. But after a while they become like people. And so a lot of the work after that ends up being much more interesting because it's like you're watching a movie or a soap opera unfold over the days, as the individuals have fights and you know build relationships and mothers have babies. And it's like a big soap opera.

LL: Better than Netflix.

JULIA BADESCU: Oh of course.

LL: How do you see your work with the chimpanzees furthering the work of Jane Goodall?

JULIA BADESCU: My work with the chimpanzees of course adds - well I try to add - new aspects of research that not only Jane Goodall but many other women after Jane Goodall have added on. I'm very interested in mother infant relationships and especially you know the bonds between mothers and infants in terms of you know nutritional needs. So what goes on when infants have to get weaned which is quite similar to a lot of Jane Goodall interests with her chimps, especially with Flo and Flint that she wrote about in her earlier books describing that bond between mother and infant. And beyond the nutritional relationship, it's so interesting to sort of be able to describe how much young ones need their mothers in every aspects of their lives to facilitate them building social relationships, to teach them their environment, what kind of foods they need to eat. Mothers are really incredible in chimpanzees.

LL: All right. Caitlin and Mark you feature two more young women in the film. Let's listen to - I hope I pronounce her name correctly - Nadia Niyonizeye, the Rwandan woman who is following in the footsteps of American Dian Fossey.

SOUNDCLIP

In my field of researching photogrammetry. I measure the body development in living mountain gorilla. I record or measure the body length, the head size, the back size and the arm size. And those measurements enable me to know how much [unintelligible] has drawn in a certain period of time. So when I started I took the picture and I will draw what I will be seeing. Now I can Id more than [unintelligible] radar, just using they're nose framed and I'm very proud of it.

LL: No you can't see that obviously. It was just her voice. But she has this big smile on her face practically the whole time that you two are talking to her. Caitlin, was she that weirdly that excited about everything she was doing?

CAITLIN STAROWICZ: Oh absolutely. Nadia is such a wonderful young scientist and researcher and she just is filled with passion for gorillas. And the remarkable thing about the mountain gorilla is that in the time of Dian Fossey there was 240 left in the world and now they have just finished a census and there's over 1000, which makes it the only great ape that is actually increasing in numbers. And even though they're still critically endangered It takes passion from young scientists like Nadia to keep that wonderful progression going.

LL: And what is her focus of her study?

CAITLIN STAROWICZ: She does photogrammetry so she uses a laser on her camera which will let her measure how much a baby gorilla is growing. So it's kind of linked to Julia's research because she also focuses on the growth and development of gorillas.

LL: Mark, Dian Fossey as we said was killed in Rwanda for her activism to save the gorillas. But as we've been hearing her efforts have started a whole new movement. What's happening in the region of Rwanda now that is so important to those gorillas that's making them have this comeback?

MARK STAROWICZ: Well the Rwandans have taken over the research. The Dian Fossey Gorilla Foundation International is run by a Rwandan. 95 percent of the staff as Rwandan. And they enlisted the community, the people who used to be poachers have ex poachers co-operatives who provide guiding services, tracking services, 10 percent of the fees - which are very steep, a thousand dollars an hour U.S. - goes to the building of schools, clinics. So the big difference is the same as Jane Goodall's eventual Epiphany which is she realized you can't save the chimpanzees unless you help the humans. And the Rwandans finally made their point that if you want to save the gorillas you've got to save the people around the gorillas. So they're very protective of them. They embrace them. Their livelihood depends on the gorillas. They track every single gorilla every single day. We don't get health care that's good.

LL: [Laughs] All right then we have Birute Galdikas and Ruth Linsky who are two Canadian women. Ruth works in Borneo with Birute. Let's listen to Ruth Linsky describe her work there.

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I am very happy here. The smell and the sounds and the pain in my neck from looking out at the right hands. I wouldn't give it up for anything.

[Music]

A huge part of what orangutans have to learn when they're younger is how their mother chooses to move through the forest. They use their body weight to bend trees. It's a very delicate dance that they play in the forest and how they choose each branch and how they move from one tree to the next. They don't live in groups like chimps or gorillas do. So they're often on their own in the forest. They're extremely vulnerable to extinction.

LL: Caitlin, what's what is the greatest threats to the wrong hands of Borneo?

CAITLIN STAROWICZ: Well the orangutans of Borneo are incredibly threatened by the encroachment of palm oil plantations. Palm oil is in over 50 percent of the things that we find in our grocery store; Shampoo, cookies, noodles and often it's not just on the label as palm oil. It'll be sodium laurel sulfate. It has all kinds of names. And it's not a nutritious crop but it's something that is very easy to grow. And acres and acres, thousands of acres of rainforest are being destroyed to plant palm oil. And because the orangutans are so few and far between, they are solitary animals. They need a lot of space. So when rainforest is destroyed it's absolutely terrible for the orangutans.

LL: Mark, this is a coming home of sorts for you because you actually did a documentary with Birute some time ago when you wrote about her in the New York Times and you got to go back again. Tell us what it meant to you to see Birute again after all this time.

MARK STAROWICZ: Oh it was the stuff of movies. I mean it was 20 years ago. I was on a CBC study sabbatical in Indonesia and somebody sent me clipping the woman had never heard of Birute Galdakis. And we did a documentary and then the New York Times article documentary for CBC was the third angel and I brought out my daughter on airplane points.

LL: And how old were you Caitlin?

CAITLIN STAROWICZ: I was eight.

MARK STAROWICZ: And so we went and it was it was like The African Queen. It was that kind of boat that kind of journey. It was just absolutely magical I had to go back. I mean it's haunted me for 28 years. I had to go back and I had to go back with the person who accompanied me in the first place.

LL: It spawned this wonderful film but it's it gives rise to something here because here you are profiling ones who have fallen in the footsteps of primatologist past and now we have Caitlin following in your footsteps. Is that the way you see it too is there a parallel here?

CAITLIN STAROWICZ: Well I really see it as a partnership. I mean that was really my first film shoot of all time at eight years old when I was the water girl. And I would carry around a canteen for the whole crew and all of the subjects and get to give everyone water. So that was my first film job and this is my latest film job and I'm just so pleased to be able to go back again with my dad. And it was also such an honor and such a magical experience to see Dr. Birute again and still fighting that good fight and see some of the same orangutans that we saw when we were there originally.

LL: Must have been magical. There is something though that's different about your situation from Julia, yours or the other new generation as I put it in the film, as a primatologist you immerse yourself in the jungle for months and in some cases years. What is that like? What kind of existence is that?

JULIA BADESCU: Well primatologist quite, can be quite lonely. I think part of what makes primatologist exciting when you're young is the idea of going off and living alone with monkeys or with apes for long periods of time, but that ends up kind of being the most difficult challenge of being a primatologist in the field, is that sort of loneliness because oftentimes you don't get to see people for really long periods of time and that can take a toll on your you know psychological mental state, but also just you know- you have to put relationships on hold. You don't get to see your friends. Things move on back home while you're alone now with the apes. But I also have to say that for a lot of primatologist who want to make primatologist career it's a lot of sort of trying to balance home life and being a scientist at home; writing papers, teaching courses, supervising students when you're a professor while also trying to do research. So at this point in my career I was lucky enough to get a tenure track job. I'm an assistant professor. I don't get to do nearly as much fieldwork as I'd like. And so I'm really starting to miss it. I wish I could dedicate more of my time to being in the field but now it's sort of me training a new generation of primatologist coming up and with new dreams and new ideas about research.

LL: Can you remind us what Jane Goodall and Dian Fossey and brutish Golden Girls had to sacrifice to achieve their goals?

JULIA BADESCU: There's a lot of compromises one has to make in terms of oftentimes you're set into situations where you end up having to make your research the priority at that moment in time. And that means often that you have to leave behind your family and sort of compromising those other aspects of your life. So it would be quite a lonely, at times, a lonely existence because while you're following your dreams and your passions it's also bittersweet in that you know you can't really dedicate yourself fully to perhaps being a mother or a girlfriend or you know a good friend.

LL: One and I want to get all three of you to address this. Fossey and Goodall and Galdikas are the pioneers. We're acknowledging that here of the global conservation movement is as you said Mark. What do we owe them? Mark do you want to start?

MARK STAROWICZ: Well first of all Birute Galdikas hardly anybody knows her name and that's an injustice. She is, her study, 50 years of chronicling, day by day hour by hour she's got trackers everywhere. The lives of 50 orangutans is one of the landmark studies of primates science one of the great achievements. They deserve to be honored as pioneers of our modern sensibility. I mean going beyond primates you know into Rainforest, the preservation of the planet.

CAITLIN STAROWICZ: They deserve so much recognition. I mean they have absolutely changed the face of primatology, not just primatologist but science itself. And they are just so incredibly dedicated and passionate to the point where Diana was murdered for her work, trying to save the gorillas. Birute is in her 70s. She is out there right now saving orphaned orangutans. Jane is in 85 and travels almost 340 days of the year trying to preach the message of conservation. These are rock stars of science and we need to recognize that.

LL: Julia last word to you.

JULIA BADESCU: Oh my gosh. We owe them so much I think especially when they appeared on the scene there really weren't many women in science. So just you know putting them in a position where people could know about women as scientists, you know not just you know maybe housewives or whatever was going on at the time, I think was really important, because it really showed you know young kids like when I was a young kid and people before me and after me can watch them on TV or in magazines or get to know about them and really see oh wow those are you know strong women that I can I want to emulate and I want to be you know in their position. So I think they've done a lot especially for our field primatologist a really interesting little sub discipline of science because we have a lot of women who are really interested in getting into this particular type of science. So I see a ton of women in my undergraduate courses and even at the graduate level. But I think it's important to mention that we need to be doing more for women as they move forward in their academic development, because even though you know Jane Goodall, Dian Fossey and Birute Galdikas sort of have already set the scene for women in our field by the time you get to a certain level we're often not doing enough to keep supporting women in research. Women by a certain age are put in a position where they either need to choose having a family and having babies over their research. And that's how we see a lot of women sort of dropping out of climatology by the time they get to the professorship level. And we don't see that sort of dominance of women anymore. And I don't think men are put in the same kind of position where they need to choose their family life over their research. And it is such that academia is often sort of cutthroat in the sense that you sort of have to publish or perish. So even a year taken off to try and raise a baby ends up you know hurting your research. We need to sort of recognize that we need to set up some extra steps and some extra support for women to support them being able to have good family lives and good personal lives as well as being excellent scientists.

LL: I feel as though I can hear them cheering you on. They've left quite a legacy and I thank you all three of you for the film and for talking to us about it today.

MARK STAROWICZ: Thank you.

CAITLIN STAROWICZ: Thank you very much.

JULIA BADESCU: Thank you very much.

LL: She Walks with Apes is co-director by the father daughter team of MarK and Caitlin Starowicz. Julia Badescu is a primatologist and an associate professor in anthropology at l'Universite de Montreal. You can watch the whole documentary this Friday on the Nature of Things at 8:00 pm. Coming up: political uncertainty in Israel continues after this week's election results produced no clear winner. We'll hear about the jockeying for power in our next half hour. I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to The current.

Political chaos in Israel

Guests: Ruth Eglash, Einat Wilf, Nour Odeh

LL: Hello I'm Laura Lynch and this is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Protestors chanting in indistinct language]

LL: Those are Israelis on election night chanting 'Who's coming.. The next prime minister'. Well two days after the vote in Israel that person still hasn't arrived because it's still not clear who the next prime minister will be. The dealmaking between the two largest Israeli parties and the smaller parties continues. Neither Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of the right wing Likud Party, nor the centrist blue and white party led by Bennigan's won enough seats to form a majority government. And it's the second national election in Israel since April. The country is perhaps even more divided than before this vote. Ruth Eglash is a reporter for The Washington Post who covers Israel and the Palestinian territories. And we have reached her in Jerusalem. Hello.

RUTH EGLASH: Hi there.

LL: Ruth, there are news reports today saying Prime Minister Netanyahu has called on his rival leader from the blue and white party to form a unity government but that's already been rejected. What is the state of play right now?

RUTH EGLASH: Well you know things are very unclear here. Both - as you mentioned - both the Blue and White Party and Netanyahu's Likud Party are more or less neck and neck. Maybe one or two seats Knesset seats between them. But neither party is large enough to form a coalition. So really now the political process will begin of each party vying for support from the smaller parties, making promises to different factions and to each other to try and to get the most support among the other political figures that have been elected into the Parliament.

LL: All right. But now we've got this. We're at the stage where Benjamin Netanyahu who called this election trying to get a more stable grip on government is calling for a unity government. Benny Gantz is already saying, no thanks, I'm not going to join in a coalition with him with the party Likud Party as long as Netanyahu is the head of it. So where does that leave things?

RUTH EGLASH: Yeah. So everyone is sticking to their guns. There's really a stalemate situation here with Netanyahu's call this morning to Knesset for Benny Gantz to join him in a coalition in a unity coalition where they might share rotate as head of or as prime minister was0 It's unclear whether that was a real offer or whether he was calling Benny Gantz's bluff, because at the same time he also formed in writing an agreement with parties on the far right of Israel's political spectrum and the ultra-orthodox parties that they would negotiate as a bloc for forming the coalition which is it automatically was rejected by Benny Gantz. And so unless someone gives in at this point I don't know, people are saying here that we could end up further Israel could end up going for a third election.

LL: Yes I was going to ask you not the previous election this election, what does it say about the state of the Israeli electorate at this point?

RUTH EGLASH: Well you know I think people will be very upset here if there's another election. They were very tired. But we also saw people going out to vote because they really have had enough of this, the stalemate. The government has not been functioning since it was dissolved. The parliament has not been functioning since it was dissolved last December and people really want to just get on with their lives and for the government to function as usual. But we really saw in the results that people want a unity government they want a centrist government. They don't want to have the smaller parties that only represent the small slivers of Israeli society dominating the political scene.

LL: How important was the Israeli Arab vote in this election?

RUTH EGLASH: Well you know it was important but it remains to be seen whether they've really been able to influence. I mean they came out in large, much larger numbers than they did in April to vote which led which is part of the reason why Netanyahu doesn't have a majority in the Knesset. If they had voted in smaller numbers then maybe the right wing parties or the ultra-orthodox parties would have had more seats, but because they came out in such large numbers for them - around 60 percent - that blocks has blocked Netanyahu from having a majority.

LL: And that may lead to the Arab parties having a position of official opposition which would be a first.

RUTH EGLASH: Well that would be a first. And it's unclear whether that will really happen because there are you know to that I mean it's a play from both sides. You know most of the mainstream parties in Israel would not be willing to bring in an Arab party into the coalition. And also there are Arab parties in the joint faction of what is called the Joint List of Arab parties that would refuse to sit in an Israeli government for ideological reasons. So you know it's really unclear. In the past they have been they have had such a large presence in the in the Israeli parliament but they haven't been able to influence as much as they would like.

LL: All right. Well we'll watch what happens in the next several days with interest. Ruth Eglash thank you very much for your time.

RUTH EGLASH: Sure no problem.

LL: Ruth Eglash covers Israel and the Palestinian territories for the Washington Post. She was in Jerusalem. With yet another deadlock, supporters of Benjamin Netanyahu are now pondering a future without him. David Rubin is the former mayor of Shilo which is an Israeli settlement in the West Bank. Here's what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

Netanyahu is a remarkable diplomat. If Netanyahu is not prime minister and if we have a left wing coalition it may reduce the vigilance in terms of facing up to Iran and Iran's very aggressive agenda. It may also create some serious divisions between the religious and the secular. There already are some divisions and there is some tension. But if the government goes hard Right or goes hard Left then that tension is only accented.

LL: David Rubin is the former mayor of Shilo. Now not everyone agrees with his assessment of the country's future. For another perspective on the election results we reached Einat Wilf in Tel Aviv. She was a member of the Israeli parliament from 2010 to 2013 for the labor and independence parties. Hello.

EINAT WILF: Hello.

LL: First off what do you make of the election results?

EINAT WILF: So first of all it's a resounding failure of Netanyahu's effort to create what was named an immunity government. He was trying to get 61 seats, not just to be prime minister. He was trying to get 61 seats in order to pass a very problematic law that would grant him immunity from ongoing legal proceedings as long as he's a prime minister which would have created a perverse incentive for him to be prime minister forever and was a true danger to Israeli democracy. So that's failed completely. He's nowhere close to that. And that's not going to happen. And in that sense I can say personally I'm very very pleased and I think many Israelis are. Then the question is, okay, beyond that and that's a clear outcome, who will be prime minister as the votes are being tallied. We're now about I think 98 percent of the votes counted. Gantz, Benny Gantz, and his party blue and white have opened to seek lead which is significant in a hundred and twenty seat parliament. His block of supporters is going to be larger than that of Netanyahu. Again depending on whether the Arab parties decide to break with tradition of remaining outside the game and actually recommending him as a prime minister, but it increasingly looks that he can claim to be a winner. Maybe not a clear winner but certainly the one who came more upfront. And within a week or so that increases the likelihood that he will receive the chance from our president. Our president is symbolic a bit like the Queen of England. So it's like her Majesty's government. The President is more likely now to give him the chance to form a government. And the thing is all the declarations we're seeing now are really part of negotiations or part of the grandstanding. But once the negotiations start in earnest and there is a clear person who gets the mandate from the president, a lot of things that are being said now will change.

LL: Now I want to get to though to react to David Rubin's idea that we just heard that a government without Netanyahu could create further divisions between religious and secular Israelis. What do you think of that?

EINAT WILF: Such divisions exist. I think government with Netanyahu that rely so heavily on ultra-orthodox and religious parties did actually exacerbate those divisions by pushing a very religious agenda. And in many ways what you're seeing in these elections is a secular backlash. I'm very secular. This was an important agenda for me so I'm not afraid from the idea of the visions I believe that this is how politics are. You push back against other people's agenda and you're trying to promote your own and I think it will be a very good thing if we will have a secular government or a more secular leaning government then we'll be able to promote a more secular agenda in the public space. The idea that this is somehow divisive is one of the tools that is often used by the Opposition to say oh no don't do that. But I do think this is exactly what's legitimate in politics. You push your agenda.

LL: But what about the argument that it could stand to make Israel look weaker and divided which may not necessarily be a good thing, considering the neighborhood?

EINAT WILF: This has always been the thing that people get wrong about Israel. Israel always looks messy, divisive, people yelling at each other. Big divisions. People arguing. And I think the mistake that many have made in the past is to see it as a sign of weakness rather than as a sign of strength. As a sign that Israel is a very vibrant, clearly a very vocal democracy. But one in which these voices are actually heard. They're not suppressed. And in the region because that's not something they're used to. They view it as a weakness when it is actually very much a mark of a strong society.

LL: What likelihood do you give that there will be another election after all of this?

EINAT WILF: Close to zero. There is a clear determination both institutional, in parliament, the president and among the public who are saying that's enough. I think the idea of an immediate follow up election, we didn't have that in 70 years of our history. Even though it was illegal move, I believe it was borderline unconstitutional when Netanyahu should have done was give another person a chance. This is how our rules work. And it's a trick. You can only do it once. I don't think we're going to do it again and again. It's also because increasingly with the votes being tallied it appears that Benny Gantz is the clear front runner, if not a clear winner. And also Benny Gantz is a non-divisive figure. He's very much a healer. He's a person that has appeal to many people. I think he will have a good chance of putting together a coalition.

LL: We'll have to leave it there. Einat Wilf, thank you.

EINAT WILF: Thank you.

LL: Einat Wilf was a member of the Israeli parliament from 2010 to 2013 for the labor and independence parties. She is in Tel Aviv. My next guest is viewing those questions from a different viewpoint in a different territory. Nour Odeh s a political analyst based in Ramallah in the West Bank and that's where we have reached her this morning. Hello.

NOUR ODEH: Hello. Hi. Nice be with you on this morning with this lively discussion.

LL: Now you heard our last guest, Einat Wilf, say she thinks positive change could be on the horizon after this election. How do you view things?

NOUR ODEH: Well I think maybe positive change for the Israeli voters who clearly did not want any anymore of Netanyahu. But as far as their relationship with the Palestinian people and as far as the prospects of ending Israeli occupation, unfortunately none of the parties that participated in the elections, except the joint lists made up of Palestinian Israelis advocated an end to the occupation. So even Benny Gantz who looks as the likely person to be in charge of forming a government talks about entrenching Israeli settlements which are illegal under international law, and even annexing the Jordan Valley which is almost 30 percent of the West Bank. And talk of of ending that reality and changing course was not heard in these elections and that's where Palestinian concern is.

LL: You mentioned the Joint List that is the Arab majority Joint List. It is now the third largest party in the Knesset, the Israeli parliament. What does that success mean to the Arab citizens of Israel?

NOUR ODEH: Well I think it's been one of the most important election cycles for Palestinian Israelis. This is 20 percent of the population in Israel. These are citizens who have to deal with more than 50 laws that specifically discriminate against them and deny them certain rights and privileges as citizens because of their nationality. And being able to garner so much popular support and to unite the parties under one listen they can speak with one voice. I think it was very empowering for Palestinian Israeli citizens and we'll have consequence in political life in Israel as far as better organization better activism, more organized work towards ending that reality of institutional discrimination. But as far as participation in government I think all parties including, the [indistinct speech] led by Benny Gantz, made it very clear that they have no interest in having the Joint List in government.

LL: But do you think they stand to have any influence as a third party on the peace talks on trying to move forward with that?

NOUR ODEH: I think if if talks with Likud do not start and if you know it's going to be very difficult right now to make a judgment because it's not clear yet whether really what we will have is a narrow coalition of parties without Likud, or if there will be a national unity government with Likud but without Netanyahu which is basically the precondition. If there is no government coalition with the Likud, the support of the Joint List will be necessary even if it's not in government. And that would come with requirements namely commitment on repealing the nation state law which basically excluded the right of Palestinian Israelis to certain rights of citizens and concerned Israel to be the exclusive homeland of the Jewish people. There are a set of very high priorities for the Joint List when it comes to civil rights that Benny Gantz would have to deal with and make some commitments on. So I think judgment on that would still be early, but no doubt 13 seats the third largest bloc in the Israeli Knesset they have a voice and they cannot be ignored for much longer.

LL: Tell me what the mood is like in Ramallah this morning, or this afternoon there, I suppose.

NOUR ODEH: Well the mood in Ramallah is not one of optimism, unfortunately. Palestinian public was predominantly apathetic to the Israeli election most likely according to polls because the public sees very little difference between the main contenders in the Israeli election. They follow very closely what Israeli parties say, where they stand on Palestine and Palestinian rights. They understand that regrettably there is almost consensus about continuing to deny Palestinian rights to independence and freedom, about committing to the agenda of the settler movement of grabbing more Palestinian land and confiscating more land, annexing more land and thus denying Palestinian statehood. So that assessment has led people to say well you know it's an Israeli matter. This is not really going to have to change our lives. It might even create more complications with a new prime minister wanting to prove that he's tough on Palestinians because that's what the general mood has been in the in this election cycle. It's been full of quite toxic messages about Palestinians and Arabs in general.

LL: Nour Odeh I thank you for your time.

NOUR ODEH: Thank you.

LL: Nour Odeh is a Palestinian political analyst. We reached her in Ramallah. I'm Laura Lynch. And you're listening to The Current.

Election misinformation

Guests: Andrea Bellemare, Kaleigh Rogers

SOUNDCLIP

So my advice to any university student, never mind your civic responsibility. Thing is you're such a low priority in this country, you should show up and vote out of spite. In this country you do not need to be registered in advance to vote. Men died on the beaches so you could vote. All you need to do is show up with some official looking mail with your address on it. Your student card and your I.D. Don't take no for an answer. And democracy is yours. And not your fake I.D. either your real one.

LL: Comedian Rick Mercer is well known for his rants like that one from 2011. But he went on a bit of another rant this week when his words were used by a political party, a meme on Facebook took a real Mercer quote about the importance of voting but change the final part from vote to vote Conservative. It was posted by a conservative party writing association in British Columbia. After Mercer took to Twitter asking for it to be removed the post was taken down. Reporters Kaleigh Rogers and Andrea Bellemare are part of the CBC News disinformation unit and they're with me now to discuss this and other online rumors. Welcome back you two.

KALEIGH ROGERS: Thank you.

ANDREA BELLEMARE: Thanks for having us.

LL: I want to get to Rick Mercer in a second but I can't help but I have to ask you about the news that's broken over the last twelve hours or so with these photographs of Justin Trudeau in brown face, black face. Not that is disinformation necessarily per say, but are there any similarities in how you see something like this spread?

ANDREA BELLEMARE: We're going to see a lot of it. I woke up this morning actually and someone had already tagged me in a meme that they had created and tagged me on Twitter. So I mean we're going to see a lot of it those pictures are going to be they're going to be all over the place and it's definitely an election changer. Of course like you said it's not disinformation at all but it will spread quickly and we'll see a lot of it being reused in sorts of other kinds of means and posts as we're continuing through this election.

LL: It's not going away in other words. No. Okay. Kaleigh, let's get back to the Rick Mercer story. What stands out for you about it?

KALEIGH ROGERS: Right. So what was interesting to me is this got some attention because Rick Mercer himself noticed that somebody tagged him on Twitter and said hey did you really say this and he got very upset that his words were misquoted. The thing is these fake quotes are a really common tactic online. It's a type of meme that I see all the time with various public officials where sometimes it's just a completely made up quote that's slapped on an image of them and gets shared like wildfire. And because it's an image it doesn't link back to a specific source. It's really hard to catch them all and debunk them. And because often the quote is made up, it's hard for individual people have to figure out if it's real or not. You know they type it into Google and all they find is more meme. So it's like 'well did they say this? I'm not sure'.

LL: So does that make it effective then?

KALEIGH ROGERS: It is effective for sure. I think it's interesting with the means coming out of the photo of Trudeau showing that you know you don't need to make stuff up to have really powerful images for your messaging and yet people still choose to do this. They still choose to make up completely false things to try to deceive people.

LL: Andrea do these meme makers have favorite targets?

ANDREA BELLEMARE: Well right now obviously we see a lot of means targeted at Justin Trudeau and I think that's just a function of him being the prime minister and the target that you want to hit. I mean in terms of what we see we see a lot of things about his history, his past, potential links to anything that people think might stick. And sometimes we'll see things and we're like we're not really sure why that link is being made but it kind of seems like there's also a 'throw everything at the wall and [unintelligible] stick approach sometimes.

LL: So you've mentioned Trudeau. What about Scheer? What about Singh? May? Are they also targets for memes?

ANDREA BELLEMARE: They are but we just we don't quite see the same volume of means directed at them. And I think again that's just a function of who's your main target, who's in power, who's your competitor, who's the person that you're trying to to beat. If you're considering yourself a partisan and you want a certain outcome, I think that that is probably not really surprising.

LL: Okay. Kelly let's talk about the story you two came out with. Yesterday there's a false rumor about the SNC Lavalin affair that went viral online. What was it?

KALEIGH ROGERS: Right. So the rumor was that the head of the RCMP Brenda Lucki is married to the cousin of Finance Minister Bill Morneau. And because of this relationship that's why the RCMP hasn't investigated SNC as deeply as people would like them to at this point. Morneau told us it wasn't true. The RCMP looked into it. They told us it wasn't true. And we did our own digging because we like to find out things for ourselves. Found some family trees. We found no connection between them. And yet it was still getting spread even last night, this rumor that there was some kind of connection there and there was some kind of corruption happening.

LL: How widely was it shared then?

KALEIGH ROGERS: A couple of memes that we found were shared thousands of times each. And those are just the ones that we were able to dig up. You know oftentimes these are hard to find there's no image search function on Facebook for example. So it can be tricky to find every instance.

LL: Now from the moment that it landed online, if you know that, when did it start to really pick up speed?

KALEIGH ROGERS: And it was really last week actually when it started to pick up speed. It was originally posted online from a small account on Twitter back in August. Someone who just sort of brought it up is like oh I heard somewhere this one thing and it trickled down and you know stayed alive. But then last week it really exploded especially with those means that make it really easy to share. Suddenly everybody was engaging with it.

ANDREA BELLEMARE: And then as you say that partly also came out of a function of the reporting from The Globe and Mail talking about the RCMP not being able to investigate as fully as they would have liked because of course there's some Cabinet confidentiality that's still in place. And I think that we really saw it pick up last weekend.

LL: Did you manage to figure out the origin of this, Kaleigh?

KALEIGH ROGERS: We're pretty certain that that first account that we saw tweeted is the original origin of this. Now, where they got it, you know they might have heard it from somebody off line and decided to tweet it. We reached out to the person behind the account. They were not interested in speaking with us, had some strong feelings about the CBC and didn't think that we would treat the story well so they didn't speak with us. So I'm not totally sure if they made it up, heard it somewhere. Who knows.

LL: Okay Andrea, what why shouldn't unfounded rumor like that, even if reporters like yourselves, the debunking, concern Canadian voters?

ANDREA BELLEMARE: I think one of the things is that it undermines people's trust in institutions, because then they start going well what's behind this? Is this true? Is this a cover up? And even though for us it was it was pretty easy to find, to get comment, to find where this had originated. You know for people who are busy they may not spend a lot of time thinking about it. They just might kind of hear it and might sort of sink in in the back of their heads and then they might go 'I'm not sure. I don't know. Do I really trust this institution anymore?' So it really is sort of a fine erosion I think of trust that gets it.

LL: So why do you think it took off the way it did? It has to be some sort of resonance somewhere I guess.

ANDREA BELLEMARE: Yes I mean I think you know at first the accounts that we saw that were sharing it were accounts that were quite partisan. And I think that it probably just came to a forefront because people have questions about SNC Lavalin and there's probably the sentiment that maybe they want more answers than they feel that they're getting and this meme taps into that emotional response. I would think that would be probably the main reason.

LL: Kaleigh, what do you what impact do you think it could have on public trust in our institutions and our democracy?

KALEIGH ROGERS: I agree that that's the biggest issue is in this case and in similar cases as we've seen with rumors of potential voter fraud through means and things online. Both of those are attacking institutions that shouldn't be about politics. You know the RCMP works very hard to maintain itself as an independent institution and if people are getting this idea that they're somehow corrupt or somehow in bed with a particular party that's really really troublesome and same thing with this idea of voter fraud. People don't believe that our basic institution of democracy is functioning properly then you know what hope do we have of a fair and well-informed election.

LL: All right. Well thank you for bringing it to our attention. And we will talk to you again soon I'm sure. Thanks guys.

GUESTS: Thank you.

LL: Reporters Kaleigh Rogers and Andrea Bellemare are part of the CBC News disinformation unit as part of our election coverage. We'll be checking in regularly with them throughout the campaign. But that is our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Today musical theater star Selena Kennedy performs a number from the hit Broadway show The Band's Visit. And remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. You can search for stories you missed or want to hear again or listen live to your local CBC station right from your smartphone or tablet. And I'm Laura Lynch. We will be back tomorrow with the Current.

Thursday September 19, 2019 Full Episode Transcript

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