Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2021

The Current Transcript for September 30, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

The story of the truth of residential schools in this country is a story about the resilience of children, not only about their resilience, but about their courage and their ability to support each other. It is a story about surviving.

MATT GALLOWAY: It is the first National Day for truth and reconciliation, a day to honour the lives of those forced to attend residential schools. This morning, retired Senator Murray Sinclair reflects on the distance still to go to achieve both truth and reconciliation. And in a moment, former attorney general and Justice Minister Jody Wilson rambled. And what needs to change in government to make that possible? Also this morning, the child welfare system has been described as a new form of residential schools for indigenous youth in this country. Yesterday, they and their families won a major victory over the federal government. And we'll hear what that means in 30 minutes. And later.

SOUNDCLIP

Build back better, blah, blah, blah. Net zero by 2050, blah, blah, blah. Climate neutral, blah, blah, blah. This is all we hear from our so-called leaders. They've now had 30 years of blah, blah, blah. And where has that got us?

MG: Greta Thunberg Isn't mincing words at the Youth Climate Summit, as world leaders get set to meet in Scotland next month to chart a course tackling climate change. We'll hear from one of the young people demanding stronger action. But we begin with what it's like to be the Indian in the cabinet. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Jody Wilson-Raybould says substantive action must follow symbolism on path toward reconciliation

Guests: Jody Wilson Raybould

MG: If there was one person who signified the newly elected Trudeau government's commitment to reconciliation in 2015, it was Jody Wilson Raybould, she was celebrated as the first indigenous justice minister and attorney general until she was removed from those roles ahead of the SNC Lavalin scandal. She was expelled from the liberal caucus and sat as an independent until the last election in which she declined to run. Now, Jody Wilson Raybould says her experience in government speaks volumes about both democracy and reconciliation. And she lays it all out in a new memoir, Indian in the Cabinet: Speaking Truth to Power. Jody Wilson Raybould, good morning.

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thank you for being here. I want to start with the word that you use in the title of your memoir. You refer to yourself as an Indian. What are you trying to convey in using that word?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: Well, I. I realised that the title has provoked a lot of discussion. I think that's important in terms of Indian in my mind and why I specifically used it. I mean, Indian is described and articulated in the Indian Act, which in my view is one of the most racist marginalising pieces of legislation as it relates to indigenous peoples in this country. And the Indian in the cabinet is reflective of my experience going from a small indigenous community on the west coast of British Columbia to being in government, in cabinet and realising simply how much farther we have to go as a country where I sat around a cabinet table and realised I was looked upon not as a proud indigenous person with a different world view and opinions and expertise, but simply as an Indian.

MG: Can you give me an example of when you felt like that sitting around that table, as you say?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: Well, I experienced and certainly this wasn't all the time, but over time an increasing sense of marginalisation. You know, I met one of my cabinet colleagues and they relayed to me that I was the first indigenous person that they had ever met in their life to be called a national treasure, but not necessarily being heard or my voice being listened to and perspectives and solutions that I brought forward from years of experience, not necessarily being incorporated into decision making as it relates to the best approach or ways to reconcile with indigenous peoples and recognise indigenous peoples rights. And that, to me, was incredibly surprising, but at the same time reflective of where I've definitely have come to known and many people know our country. Is that and how far much farther we have to go in terms of of embracing marginalised voices and creating a place of justice, inclusion and equality.

MG: What were the expectations that that you came into federal politics with? I mean, you describe the reality there, but what were the expectations that you came in with in terms of what you thought you could do?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: Well, I mean, getting into federal politics, I wanted to continue to advocate on the issues that were important to me, certainly reconciliation with indigenous peoples, justice the justice system, and creating those changes. My expectations when I met Justin Trudeau, when I decided to join the Liberal Party and run to be a member of parliament, my expectations were that we thought we were going to fulfil the promises that we made.

MG: You had a note that you had in one of your notebooks, and this was something that that you referred to often as you saw those expectations perhaps being challenged and it said, beware of moderate liberals who tell you the timetable for seeking justice. You were particularly frustrated inside of government when when it came to slow progress on indigenous policy. Tell me more about that timetable for seeking justice and the frustration that you felt in the timetable that government was executing?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: Well, I mean, I think you and I are having a conversation in a week where we are going to recognise the first time a national holiday on truth and reconciliation with indigenous peoples and the the ongoing colonial legacy, as exemplified by our history of residential schools in this country and the revelations of of the mass graves, and the awareness that this day is going to bring increasingly to Canadians, that's incredibly important. But the frustration over the timeline, the frustration at the slow advancement of these issues for me when I was in government is the same for for me when I was the regional chief of British Columbia. Likewise for indigenous peoples across the country for the last one hundred and fifty years plus is recognising that indigenous peoples were here, that we have rights to our territories. We have the inherent right of self-government and myself and leaders before me and I know leaders to come are going to continue to advocate for our rightful place. And when I was in government, I felt increasingly so as the days and years past that we were, in spite of our promises and in spite of the prime minister continuing to articulate that the relationship between indigenous peoples and our government is the most important relationship. I found, and it was very frustrating that we were falling back into the place like all federal governments past where there were excuses that it was too hard or that we will leave it to the next mandate. I find that there and this is that these are my words, but words of people past, it's always the right time to do the right thing. Indigenous peoples have known what the solutions are and have been advocating solutions for generations. And I was looking for and my expectation was, is that we had a leader and a government that was willing to do the hard work necessary to change that environment. And that just simply wasn't the case. It was more symbolism over the actual substance and action that was required.

MG: What specifically was there that was waiting to be done, that wasn't being done?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: A number of things. I do not take away from the government that I was a part of this government and the necessity to invest in indigenous communities. And I do recognise some of the work that the government has done around trying to address the ongoing challenge of boil water advisories, investing in communities in terms of housing and language and culture and children families. So there has been work done, but the transformative work that was promised in terms of recognising indigenous people's rights and creating a framework for that transformed relationship which was promised over and over again, which includes, of course, embracing the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples into Canadian law. And included in that framework is changing laws, policies and the operational practises of government to ensure that we do create a different space, necessary space for self-determination and self-government for indigenous peoples. That was a promise, a transformative promise that simply hasn't been fulfilled. And it's something that indigenous peoples have been asking for so many years.

MG: You talked about symbolism and how you felt came to believe that that much of what was being articulated perhaps was symbolism. How much of that frustration do you lay at the feet of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: Well, I mean that he presented himself to me very early on in our conversations, we talked about our vision for the country, not just in terms of indigenous peoples, but our democracy and the health of our institutions of government and how things would be different, how we would. And it's overused phrase, but how he would do politics differently, we would be open and transparent and we would be a government by cabinet. The person that presented himself to me turned out not to be the person that I came to know. It's one thing to see flags being flown at half mast or taking a knee. And and those symbols are important. But when we speak words, speak rhetoric, or just take symbolic stances and not translate those into actions, that's hugely problematic. And the country suffers for it.

MG: You say that he didn't turn out to be the person that you thought he was. Who did he turn out to be?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: Well, I you know, I have to say, I remain hopeful that things can change on indigenous issues and beyond. The person that that presented himself to me, I felt shared the same values and principles once that I was raised with and that continue to guide me to this day, values that embrace equality and inclusion and justice, and that every person has an important role to play to ensure that our society is functioning properly. And if he chooses to follow through with the promises that he made, in terms of indigenous issues and otherwise, I would be the first person standing there applauding and supporting the necessary work that we have to do as a country.

MG: I was just gonna say part of this is about the institution as well, the institution of of government and what people refer to as a colonial government and whether that squares with the goals and the aspirations and the lives of indigenous people across this country. The day that you announced that you had resigned from cabinet, CBC News spoke with your father, Bill Wilson. He's a hereditary chief in British Columbia. He has a long history in indigenous leadership himself. Take a listen to a bit of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

Who knows where this scandal is going to end up? And there could be a change in government, but I hope it's not Tweedledee and Tweedledum because we know how bad the conservatives were. The liberals were slightly better than the conservatives. But both governments have historically treated Indian people like water, treated them in the misery industry to make sure that they could be pushed off the land and the resources to build pipelines and and pollute rivers. Nothing is going to change unless Indian people do it at their own level, organise themselves to fight at the community level. I have no faith whatsoever, not that I ever did in the white man's government.

MG: no faith in the white man's government. How do you feel in retrospect about your decision to become part of that government?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: Well, I have heard a lot about this question, and I am grateful for my experience in government. I learnt a lot. And and one of the main reasons why I wanted to reflect about my experience in government, because I think that there are lessons there for people and certainly for me, but lessons about the need to revitalise our institutions of government to look and be vigilant about the nature of our democracy. I mean, when I hear you play that clip of my father, I can feel the emotion in his voice. And I understand what he means in terms of not having faith. Many indigenous peoples do not have trust in other governments. And when I made the decision to run to be an MP, to be ultimately in government, that's important. So I don't take away any measure of the importance of having necessarily so people from diverse backgrounds sitting around the cabinet table, sitting in parliament, in the Senate, that's important. And I was taught, including from my father and specifically my grandmother, that my voice matters and that if you see something wrong or you see something that needs to change, then you get involved in it wholly remains within our power to speak up and in speaking up to help our system of government and our country continue to get better. I think that there are important lessons to be learnt from the teachings of my ancestors who have survived for millennia, and the reality that we can reach across party lines, that it doesn't have to be as completely adversarial as it is. But good ideas, good discussion, debate can come from anywhere and not just compartmentalised within a political party. So how we address issues like indigenous reconciliation or climate change or pandemic response and recovery is by doing just that.

MG: Is that really possible? I mean, in the book you say there's a lot that's wrong and that requires bold change and new thinking. We have just been through this incredibly divisive election campaign. People say that politics and you talk about in the book, the politics is becoming toxic. Is it truly possible in the environment that politics is operating in now to get to where you're you're looking to be?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: I think it is. I mean, I have to believe and do believe that it is. And what I believe in is in Canadians giving the government a minority. It is Canadians saying we have to work together enough of this division. Yes, I sound and people might say, oh, she sounds so naive, but I I'm OK with that label. If being naive means that there's better ways to actually engage and in these discussions and to actually that's where I think that we are headed. And one of the things that I talk about this in the book as well, that is greatly the boys me that thinking about Truth and Reconciliation Day is that Canadians are leading and Canadians are the ones that are increasingly so continuing to push forward in terms of demanding change on indigenous issues. But also my previous constituents and where I still live showed me that we can do politics differently. They elected an independent MP, the first woman in our country's history. That means something.

MG: Just before I let you go, just let me ask you two more things. One is about a word that we have been hearing a lot over the course of the pandemic, certainly, but broader than that. And that word is resilience. What does that word mean to you?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: Hmm. Resilient. How much resilience? When I hear you say that word, I think about my father. I think about my grandmother and my ancestors who ensured that our culture and our laws have survived. And resiliency to me means being proud of. Who you are remembering, where you come from and knowing fundamentally at the end of the day that your voice matters and in the end I am hopeful and these are my teachings to ensure that I do my part in my public service as a member of our community and the broader community of Canada.

MG: And that leads to the last question, which is when you talk about doing your part, what's next for you?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: It's a good question. I feel I'm in the place that I'm meant to be. I feel fortunate to have people approaching me to do various things, and I haven't made any definitive plans. I know I will continue to be in some way and in public life. And certainly, as I had for decades prior to becoming a member of parliament, I'll continue to advocate and use my voice to ensure indigenous peoples are enabled to take their rightful place and be self in this country and advocate for the social justice issues that I have my entire life. Where that where that puts me, I, I'm not sure, but I know it will involve a lot of a lot of writing. And of course, being in the in outspoken in terms of the issues that I deeply care about.

MG: To put you right now in your home community, which in when you were in government, you didn't have a lot of time to return to. And I know that it's incredibly important for you. I mean, what does it mean to be there now?

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: I mean, [unintelligible] it's stormy outside and there's white caps and discovery passage for me. No matter how often I get back here, when I do get back here, this is a place unlike anywhere else. It is where my people come from. Is a place that grounds me and continues to reinforce who I am and who I am as a proud indigenous person and a proud Canadian. And through this wonderful little place, anybody gets a chance to come to to Cape Cod, which is on Quadri Island off the West Coast to do so. And you'll be very welcomed here.

MG: I hope we have the chance to talk again. In the meantime, I'm really grateful to to speak with you this morning. Thank you very much.

JODY WILSON RAYBOULD: It's my pleasure. Thanks for much.

MG: Jody Wilson Raybould. Her new book is called Indian in the Cabinet Speaking Truth to Power. The CBC News is next. Then.

SOUNDCLIP

Reconciliation. The government of Canada is not going to make a press release in my lifetime that it's been achieved. It took one hundred and fifty some years to knock everything down and it's going to take that long to build it back up again.

MG: Today is about truth and reconciliation, and those are more than just words. And they're important on more than just one day in six minutes, we'll speak about a landmark court case that means compensation for thousands of indigenous people who were put through the child welfare system in this country. We'll also hear more about the meaning of Orange Shirt Day. All of that to come. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

Court upholds compensation order for First Nations children

Guests: Cidy Blacstock, Natasha Reimer Okemow, Phyllis Webstad

[clip] 1956102211617[/clip]

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. Still to come, sometimes it takes a young person to point out the flaws of very powerful grown ups. Sometimes it takes an entire conference full of those young people. The Youth for Climate event pulled no punches in condemning world leaders in action on climate change. In 30 minutes, what's at stake for the next generation? But first, billions of dollars for indigenous children held up in court no longer.

SOUNDCLIP

Tribunal members, in conclusion, I am the first witness, but I am not the first voice. There are thousands of children and adults who have come before me who have tried to call attention to the inequalities of First Nations children experience both within the government and outside of it.

MG: That's Cindy Blackstock, executive director of the First Nations Child and Family Caring Society, speaking in 2013. She was the first witness to speak at the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, examining the treatment and funding of child and Family Services for First Nations communities in 2019. The tribunal agreed with Cindy Blackstock and said that Ottawa didn't properly fund child and family services for First Nations. The Trudeau government appealed that ruling yesterday. On the eve of the first National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, the federal court rejected the government's appeal. Cindy Blackstock joins me now. Cindy, good morning.

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Good morning, Matt.

MG: In light of the court's decision, what goes through your mind as you listen to yourself from eight years ago?

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I don't even know why we had to bring this litigation in the first place, but this is about ending the inequalities in federally funded services for First Nations kids. They get less of everything because the federal government doesn't think they're worth the money. And we had work for ten years prior to bringing the case to show them the inequalities, to show them that those inequalities. We're really hampering families from being able to address the multigenerational harms from residential school and driving more kids into foster care than residential schools. In addition to that, we are showing them that the inequalities in public services we're actually getting in the way of children being able to live the lives that they wish to have, sometimes being denied life saving health and education services. All of this was found to be discriminatory. After nine years of litigation in 2016, the government marched out some ministers to welcome the decision. Then they didn't comply. So we've had twenty nine compliance orders. And then yesterday the federal court again sided with the kids all the time. The kids win, but the government keeps fighting them.

MG: What did you make of what you heard over the course of the federal election when it came up in one specific debate when the Justin Trudeau was asked why his government was fighting children, indigenous children in court, and he said that the government wasn't doing that.

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I was gobsmacked, you know, like after the affirmation of the survivors. True. With the rediscovery of the 215 little children in the graves outside a residential school in Kamloops, there was a unanimous motion in the House that demanded that the government stop fighting against these kids and against residential school survivors. The prime minister and his cabinet abstained. They abstained from that ruling because the next week we were in federal court arguing these two judicial reviews that they just lost yesterday. So he obviously knew about it. And I am just you know, it's one thing for the government to fight these kids, which is, by the way, with the issues that we're dealing with, child welfare, Jordan's principle are two of the top three calls to action from the survivors. They choose to do that, but it's quite another for them to lie about it. I just was so disappointed.

MG: The federal government was arguing that the tribunal overreached and was wrong to order Ottawa to pay forty thousand dollars to each child affected by the on reserve child welfare system since 2006. The assumption is that this would cost the government billions of dollars. What do you make of that argument?

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, number one, it's important to understand that the government behaved its way into this compensation order. Had it implemented the new evidence based solutions that we came up with in two thousand, in two thousand and five, or even if it would have acted immediately upon us filing the case, there would have been no compensation because no one would have been hurt. The other piece about this is that the government was not challenging just the jurisdiction of the tribunal. What they were asking for is to quash the compensation order and to quash an order to make sure that all First Nations children are preserved, recognised by their nations, get the public services they need when they need them free of discrimination. Under Jordan's principle. That's what they were after. They were just using jurisdictional arguments and other technical arguments to try and achieve that aim. They did not want the kids to get the restitution or the services that they needed.

MG: So on this day, what does this message send to those children, do you think?

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: You know, I heard the prime minister at the cellar at the opening of Orange Shirt Day yesterday on Parliament Hill. And you talked about the past injustices and he talked about being truthful about those past injustices. That's important. But we have injustices happening right now where First Nations children are getting lost because their First Nations in what amounts to an apartheid public service delivery system. The question is whether he has the leadership and his government has the leadership and all politicians have the leadership to face that, to abide by these rulings, to not appeal it, and to make sure that First Nations children for the first time in this country's history are not discriminated against by the Canadian government.

MG: Stay with us. I want to speak directly about what this means for those children. Natasha Reimer Okemow was put into the child welfare system in Manitoba when she was just a year old. She's the founder of Foster Up. It's a group helping kids as they age out of care. She's also a Manitoba director of Youth in Care, Canada. And Natasha, good morning to you.

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: Good morning.

MG: What was your reaction to yesterday's decision?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: Reaction to yesterday's decision was I saw it as a win for indigenous children. You know, I just really hope that you kind of commit to supporting and providing services for those in are without any further delays or barriers before it's time for action.

MG: This is about the lives of kids in care. And I mean, you know this firsthand. You grew up in 12 different homes. You went to four different schools. You lived in five different towns. When you look back on that experience, I mean, how do you think that shaped you?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: For me, it shaped my sense of identity, belonging community. And those are things that I lost when I was in the system, I didn't feel like I was provided the support and services that I felt I needed, that I was given a tent approach and kind of felt like I was floating on by the system that didn't respond to my needs of the unquestioning care.

MG: You were placed in a non-indigenous community. Were you allowed to or did you have the opportunity to try to connect with your indigenous roots while you were in that system?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: No, I was actually denied the right to know about my indigenous roots. I wasn't until I was in my 20s that I actually found out that my mother was first nation, I wa,s every time I'd ask growing up, I was told that when I was ,when I reached the age of majority, which is adulthood, and I told that I was 18, that I would be able to find out about this. But even when I turned 18 and was able to get permission, it was all redacted. And the government, the social services workers, they did not assist me and talk about my identity. And that was just part of me growing up trying to know where I belong, who I am.

MG: I was going to say when you don't know that when you don't find out until you're 20, as you say, your mother's roots and your roots, how does that shape who you think you are and who you're becoming?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: For most of my life, I didn't know who I was. It messes with your sense of self. You know, you have no I felt like I had no connection growing up, I didn't like I knew I didn't like necessary in my non-indigenous community, but to be so removed and to be so disconnected has resulted in me struggling with, now as an adult as I try to work towards very close relationships with my roots. It's it's hard. It's painful. And it reminds me of growing up and how lonely that was.

MG: Do you feel like now you are establishing those roots, that those roots are becoming more evident to you?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: I am establishing those roots, but it's still something that I struggle to restore.

MG: Cindy Blackstock, Natasha, was describing what it's like to to feel disconnected, in part because, as I mentioned, she lived in 12 different homes, went to these four different schools. What do we know about how common that is for indigenous children to be moved around from place to place to place in that care system?

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: It's a very, very common. In fact, one of the things we did in the last couple of years is work with Youth in Care Canada to get some advice from young people in care about how to move forward with ending this discrimination that's still going on against First Nations kids and also to roll out this compensation in a way that met their needs and all of them. We're talking about these multiple placements and Natasha's description about having to try and rediscover who you are because you're separated from it. Doesn't that sound very familiar to what happened to the kids in residential school? It's that same theme is being separated from your family, being separated from your identity. And keep in mind that the tribunal found that many of these placements in child welfare care could have been prevented if the government of Canada had provided the families with the proper supports so that they could recover from the trauma of residential schools.

MG: When you hear people describe this is the new residential school, does that square with you?

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: It does. It squares with the evidence as well. We know that there are more First Nations children in child welfare care today than at the height of residential schools. In fact, we just got some data this week from the Canadian incidence study on reported child abuse and neglect. And they find that First Nations kids are 14 times more likely to be placed into child welfare care than other kids. And the reasons are poverty, poor housing, caregiver substance misuse related to the multigenerational trauma and domestic violence. All of those things could be corrected if we had culturally based and equitable services. And that's why we need to press for the federal government to to honour the tribunal's decisions, to stop the discrimination and to compensate the young people who are so badly hurt by this.

MG: People have called this the millennial Schoop, referencing, of course, the sixties scoop. And this is a different generation, but the same thing happening. What do you think the ruling from the tribunal will mean in terms of making sure that to your point, those young people who have been part of that group are put on a better path, have had have the tools in front of them to be put on that better path?

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. Well, I mean, this provides the forty thousand dollars in human rights damages. And when we've talked to young people in care, they said, look, this would help me get a stable house. This would help me get a get into post-secondary or into a trade. It would help me be able to reconnect with my family. It's not going to help them recover from their childhoods. The most important thing the government needs to do is implement the solutions we already have on the books that are evidence based to stop the discrimination that can't think about this. The Canadian government is a repeat offender when it comes to our kids first with residential schools, then the sixties scoop now with ongoing discrimination. And what it really means is that they have chosen not to reform themselves. And that's why the Canadian public is so important. We have to press the government and say, put your sword down. This generation of First Nations maintaining and your children are worth the money, do the right thing and make sure that they don't have to recover from their childhoods again.

MG: Natasha, you are now pursuing a law degree with something like that. Have ever, do you think, been possible? Was it even on your radar when you were in the system before? You know?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: Yes, well, when I was in the system, I was actually discouraged from pursuing any post-secondary. I was actually told that kids like me, which are foster kids, do not get happy endings. Kids like me are not afforded that right, because we are less than. And that was actually what I was told when I was in grade 12, when everyone was talking about what they wanted to go off and do after graduation. And for me. It's- when I was in care, there was no support. One day, one day you're supported, the next day you're cut off, you're done. And it doesn't matter what day of the week it is. If your 18th birthday, which is a majority in [unintelligible], lies on a Tuesday, which mine did. You are cropped that day and there's no [unintelligible] of support there is nothing, and it's scary because you. Don't know what the next steps are, how to proceed, but you also don't have any assistance along that way. So for me, getting to where I've gone today, it was a very difficult road. It was very hard. It was a lot of points of not knowing if I was going to be able to go to school. There's limited funding for kids who are going to proceed post secondary, and it's not services or support for in-home care moving forward, trying to work on. So it's very hard, for me when I was looking for, it was very scarce and still is scarce.

MG: What do you want to do with your law degree?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: I hope to fight on discrimination and injustice, injustices for indigenous children in care.

MG: It's perfect, I mean, in many ways, it's as though this is what you were destined to do, given all of the difficulties that you've been through. Cindy Blackstock, just briefly, the government has said that it's reviewing the decision, but it remains committed to compensating the children and families involved. Are you confident the government will not appeal this court ruling that it will it will live up to what you called for all those years ago?

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I'm not confident at all. In fact, they never filed a judicial review on this past Friday when the tribunal ordered them to provide adequate buildings so that families and young people had a place to go to receive the services, to overcome the trauma of residential schools and stay together. So they are still very much in fighting mode. And I think that's where the public today needs to take action and get a hold of your member of parliament and say to the government that they need to stop this fight because what should First Nations children and young people have to spend their childhoods fighting against the government just to be treated equally?

MG: Cindy, it's great to talk to you, as always. Thank you very much.

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Thank you. And thank you. It was an honour to be on the show with Natasha.

MG: And Natasha good luck and thank you very much for speaking with us.

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: Thank you for calling

MG: Cindy Blackstock, executive director of the First Nations Child and Family Caring Society, Natasha Rimer Okarma was put into the child welfare system in Manitoba when she was a year old. She's the founder of Foster Up, a group helping kids as they age out of the system. We did ask for comment from the federal government, a statement attributable to Mark Miller, minister of Digital Services, reads in part, Canada is reviewing the federal court's decision and further information will be forthcoming. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. This is the first National Day of truth and reconciliation. And in creating it, the government fulfilled a call to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The day honour survivors of the residential school system. It's meant to bring Canadians together. It's also called Orange Shirt Day, named in honour of the orange shirt that was taken from an indigenous girl in B.C.. We'll let her tell the story.

SOUNDCLIP

PHYLLIS: My name is Phyllis Webstad, and I'm from the Secwepec Xgat'tm First Nation, and I'm the founder of Orange Shirt Day. I'm third generation that attended the St. Joseph Indian Residential School just outside of Williams Lake. So when I turned six, it was the thing to do. Granny got us ready, me and my my older cousin to go to school. And we went to town to William's Lake. It was the early 70s, I had just turned six in July of 1973. That was like I guess like the hippie era with bright metallic prints. And I chose a shiny orange shirt that's kind of like the nimo orange. When I got to the residential school that my clothing was taken, including my orange shirt and I never wore it again and my losing my orange shirt story is not unique. Well, all the children, when they got there, their clothes were taken. And, you know, even though they had just got, we had just had a bath before we left home, we were looked at as dirty when we got there. And so. Yeah, so that's my orange shirt story that I told when the TRC came to William's Lake in May 2013.

ROSE: I'm Rose and I'm Phyllis's mother, Secwepc Xgat'tam, so I found out about what my daughter, went through, it hurt. And I couldn't describe how it it feels, really. It is awful. When you go over there, just like this clip of your identity and everything, that's what they do.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: The establishment of a National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, for Fields calls to action any of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's final report, Bill C five is an important step in the path towards reconciliation, which won't be achieved in the blink of an eye as an important action to take. And we must act quickly so that this state becomes part of our reality this year.

PHYLLIS: I'm looking forward to it. I'll be in Mission, B.C. Minister Steven Guilbeault, the minister of Canadian Heritage, will be joining and I'll be talking there and meeting the people. There is a residential school on that site in that area. And, yeah, just looking forward to the day and to the conversation, because that's what our entire day was created for, was to have conversation. And our entire day is also a day to honour survivors and their families and to remember those that didn't make it home. I keep getting asked that, how do I feel, how do I feel? And all I can say is that this whole movement from the very beginning, when it started in 2013, has been divinely guided, like the ancestors are behind this and the children are definitely behind this. And for whatever reason, it's my story that was chosen by them to carry this message forward and to create change. And I'm humbled and honoured. I can't say that enough, of course. And just looking forward to the conversation that's going to happen and all of the events all across Canada for Orange Shirt Day, the first National Day for Truth and Reconciliation.

ROSE: I feel that a long time coming out. Glad that it's coming close to where it is today. Like to see that. Just get along and work with one another and help one another.

NEWSCASTER 1: It's a developing story out of British Columbia, a first nation says the remains of more than 200 children have been located, buried on the site of a former resident.

NEWSCASTER 2: Breaking news tonight of another terrible finding.

NEWSCASTER #: A Saskatchewan first nation says it has found hundreds of unmarked graves at the site of another former residential school.

PHYLLIS: The truth is not yet finished being told. I think reconciliation can be discussed and think about what it means to us, but it's not going to happen in my lifetime. Maybe my grandchildren, if not, maybe my great grandchildren. One of the biggest impacts that my grandchildren talked about was the loss of culture and language and not not knowing fully what what that is and what that means. And and I need to make a commitment to bring them more out on the land, to learn more of the culture and maybe listed some of the language. But at this point, the reconciliation, everybody has a different idea of what it is. And the government of Canada is not going to make a press release in my lifetime that it's been achieved. So we can all just, I think, discuss it. And it took a hundred and fifty some years to knock everything down. As Murray Sinclair said, it's going to take that long to build it back up again.

MG: Phyllis Webstad is the founder of the Orange Shirt Society. We also heard from her mother, Rose Wilson. Want to remind you of the National Indian Residential Schools crisis line. It provides immediate emotional support for survivors and their families. It can be reached at 1 866 925 4419. Well, coming up after your regional update,

SOUNDCLIP

Why is it so easy for leaders to open up new coal power plants, construct all pipelines and frack gas, destroying our planet and harming the present and future of their children?

MG: Young climate activists had some choice words for world leaders this week. We'll hear more of those words and talk about what action looks like. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current. Stay with us.

Youth call for 'bold and immediate action' ahead of UN climate change meeting; and Murray Sinclair on residential schools, and helping survivors

Guests: Shakti Rumkamar, Murray Sinclair

MG: Hi, this is The Current on CBC Radio One, my name is Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

Everywhere I go, leaders fall over themselves to say how they will achieve net zero by such and such a debt to me to get the worst impacts of the climate crisis. Sometimes I hear leaders talk about the need to fund adaptation efforts where mitigation will no longer be enough, no more empty conferences. It's time to show us the money. It's time. It's time, it's time.

MG: That's twenty four year old Ugandan climate activist Vanessa Nakate speaking at the Youth for Climate Meeting in Milan this week. Hundreds of young climate leaders gathered in Italy, hoping that their voices will snap world leaders to attention and spur them to action. But despite a year of climate disasters, as you're hearing, some are sceptical that global leaders are prepared to listen or to act. Vancouver's Shakti Ramkumar is also in Milan. She's director of communications and policy at Student Energy. Shakti. Hello.

SHAKTI RAMKUMAR: Hi, Matt.

MG: We just heard from Vanessa and I tell you there. I mean, she has a lot of frustration when it comes to what isn't happening at the leadership level around the world in the face of a climate emergency. Is that frustration that you share?

SHAKTI RAMKUMAR: Absolutely. You know, I've been here with four hundred delegates from around the world, and youth delegates have gone to incredible lengths to make it here. The travel restrictions, the vaccination inequity, the on top of the already existing challenges, they've gone to incredible lengths to be here. And so because we're here, we want to see bold and immediate action. But we've been hearing a lot of the same thing. You know, you're so inspiring. Thank you so much for doing this. But we need to see action behind those words. So that frustration is definitely shared for me and a lot of the other delegates.

MG: There's also frustration around who is actually there and who's been left out of the conversation. Tell me more about that.

SHAKTI RAMKUMAR: You know, these spaces have always been exclusive in some ways. Only a select few youth are able to be here. And I think who's left out in this space? Often our front line and grassroots activists, indigenous voices, youth from the most affected and vulnerable countries. So while efforts have been made to include a lot of diverse young people at this event, it's still not even close to what we need. And I really urge decision makers to listen to what young people are really saying, even if they are not in these formal spaces, even if they're not able to speak the UN jargon and go through the proper channels of bureaucracy, the real action is on the ground and on the front lines. And even the young people that are not in the space, those are the voices that leaders need to be acting on.

MG: How do you get to that? I mean, and cut through, as you say, the U.N. jargon to hear from people who are right there on the front lines?

SHAKTI RAMKUMAR: That's what makes youth climate activism different, I think is young people are not settling for half measures and compromise solutions. Young people are leading with our values and we are calling for bold action that's aligned with the science. So what leaders can do to kind of cut through the jargon and commit to real action is not say what they plan to do, not make big targets for net zero to 20, 50 to 20, 60 and beyond. We need to see immediate short term action from world leaders and drastic emissions reductions and guaranteed commitments towards equity. So those short term actions are what young people are calling for.

MG: And yet, are you encouraged by the fact I mean, this is the first time that we're seeing a summit like this before the COP twenty six summit. So are you encouraged that at the very least you're there to help get your voice out?

SHAKTI RAMKUMAR: Yes. And as you mentioned, this is the first youth summit that has happened before. COP Twenty six. And the reason why that matters is a lot of the decisions and agenda setting for COP twenty six happened well before it even starts. So it's good that young people are being invited to organise ourselves and we got to spend three full days developing kind of unified recommendations, a full month in advance of COP26. So it is encouraging for me to see these recommendations being read out this morning in front of the Italian prime minister, the UK prime minister, a host of ministers from around the world. So it is encouraging for me to see that this process is occurring well before cop to give us a shot at being heard during the actual negotiations.

MG: What are the issues that keep you up at night when you think of the world that you will inherit and what's been unfolding not just this summer but over recent history, what's the kind of thing that that at three o'clock in the morning wakes you up?

SHAKTI RAMKUMAR: You know, I work in the field of energy at student energy. And what really keeps me up at night is that most of the solutions we need to tackle the climate crisis, we already have them when it comes to energy, things like demand, side reduction, energy efficiency, investing, and these low cost, low tech solutions can take us most of. The way they're to emissions reductions, so it keeps me up at night that we're not investing in the solutions, we're not investing in young people and indigenous leaders in indigenous communities to lead with solutions that have worked for years and years. Instead, we're waiting for novelty technology is that there's no promise that they could be scaled up or where we're setting vague targets with no clear action plan of how to get there. So that's what really keeps me up at night as we have what we need. But we're not investing in them.

MG: In this country. What do you want to hear from the leaders who will be in Glasgow? What do you want to hear from from those government members?

SHAKTI RAMKUMAR: I mean, what I want to see from Canada is an increase in our nationally determined contributions. So these are the actual commitments we're making towards reducing emissions. They are nowhere near close to meeting the aims of the Paris agreement, and they're nowhere near close to what we need to do it to account for our historical responsibility and contributing to the climate crisis. I think Canada has a huge responsibility and an opportunity to actually be a leader in recognising our historical contributions and repairing these relationships by cutting our emissions drastically. But we have not met any of the targets we've set previously and we really can't afford to do that any longer. So I would like to see us set bold targets that are aligned with the scale of the crisis and actually meeting those targets.

MG: Just finally, if you think about hope and optimism, I mean, where are you finding hope coming out of the meeting that you're at right now, but also the larger conference in November?

SHAKTI RAMKUMAR: I'm really finding hope from my fellow youth delegates. It's incredible that across so many diverse geography, so many different backgrounds, there is such a shared sense of commonality and so much shared solidarity amongst the delegates. So that's where I'm drawing my hope. And I really feel hopeful that young people are not settling for half measures and compromise solutions, that young people are being bold and clear in our values and are seeing the big picture on climate change. And I find that to be hopeful. Sometimes young people are brushed off as naive or unrealistic. But that's not the case. We are calling for action that's aligned with the science. So that's where I'm finding hope, is that young people are not afraid to be clear on where we need to go.

MG: It's great to talk to you. I appreciate you taking some time from the discussions to speak with us. Thank you very much. Thank you. Matt Shakti, Ramkumar, director of communications and policy at Student Energy. She's in Milan attending the Youth for Climate Meeting this week. This is The Current on CBC Radio.

[Music: Theme]

MG: My name is Matt Galloway. Last January, I sat down with Murray Sinclair just as he was retiring from the Senate race. And Sinclair, of course, led the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that examined the atrocities of the residential school system and the lasting impact on indigenous people in Canada. He was a trailblazer through his legal career, the first indigenous justice in Manitoba. In twenty sixteen, he became a senator. And today on the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, we thought we would revisit my conversation with Murray Sinclair.

[sc].

MG: Senator Murray Sinclair, good morning.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Good morning, Matt. Thank you for having me.

MG: It's a real pleasure to have you on the programme when you accepted your appointment to the Senate. You called it a sacred honour. What were you hoping to accomplish and accepting that?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, there are probably a number of achievements I was trying to reach. But two major goals that arose for me at that time, firstly, related to the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the opportunity to keep the conversation alive and to bring the conversation into the red chamber, because that was the place that also participated in the cultural genocide of indigenous people, because all of the laws that were passed came through the Senate throughout Canadian history. So I thought it was time for there to be a different voice, a different perspective and an opportunity for the Senate itself to acknowledge that and to begin to move on. And secondly, of course, there was a need that was voiced to be at the time by the prime minister of reforming the Senate and making the Senate for independence. And that was also my ambition.

MG: And so as you get set to leave the Senate and you look back on your time there, how do you feel about about what you accomplished? Did you feel that you met the goals that you had set out for yourself when you accepted that?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: I recognise, of course, that both of those ambitions or long term ambitions and are going to far exceed any period of time that I'm going to be able to spend in the Senate. The conversation about reconciliation and acknowledgement of the truth of residential schools is one that will be a constant conversation that says this because reconciliation is not a state that you achieve and you know, you're there and that's it. It is like any relationship. You know, once you establish a relationship with somebody that each day you have to put effort in to maintain that relationship and also to change the relationship. As things come up between you with regard to Senate reform, we really need to look upon the senators, candidates, council of elders. It was envisioned that it would be the place to use the phrase that suggested McDonnell use the time of sober second thought and the Senate itself was envisioned to be something somewhat different than what it became over the years that evolved into a place of vested interests. The partisanship, the political activities that go on within the House of Commons so quickly became part of the Senate itself, and probably for quite a number of years now, we see political partisanship functioning within the Senate in a way that I don't think is very constructive for the country. I think that if we have a Senate that merely reflects what and how the House of Commons works, then we may as well get rid of it.

MG: In the wake of the TRC, there was talk of a reckoning around relations between indigenous folk in this country and the nation itself. And we've seen the reckoning that we saw the summer over the course of relations with black communities and the conversations around antiblack racism. Do you believe that that sense, that that reckoning with indigenous communities and the racism that those communities faced, has that come to pass? Has that been a true reckoning?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: But we haven't seen the end of it. It's going to keep occurring because the systemic racism that is embedded into our very institutions are going to dominate the conversation for years to come. People who go to law school, for example, and try to be good lawyers and try to be made, people are often compelled to do unjust things because of the way the laws read. And so we really do need to look at changing our laws so that we can be better lawyers and we can be the kind of lawyers we want to be. People who work in hospitals are often taught and pressured by their colleagues to behave in a particular way, and sometimes they're pressured by their colleagues to maintain silence in the face of their colleagues blatant racism. And that's true for police officers as well. So we need to ensure that. Systems in which they function are able to confront both the internal racism that's there, but also to confront its own inability or lack of willingness to deal with how it is compelling certain behaviours or allowing certain behaviours to occur without changing them. Indigenous people and people of colour are standing up and saying enough is enough is is one thing. But the people who control the institutions, people in charge of the institutions that we're trying to address really do need to take stock of what they're doing and change the way they do business.

MG: Changing those institutions in many ways. At the heart of the calls to action from the TRC, there were 94 different calls to action. It's been five years since those calls were issued. Take a listen to what Commissioner Wiltern little child had to say about where those calls to action are right now.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: I'm encouraged by what I see going on across the country since we tabled our report as an individual anyway. On the other hand, we're collectively quite concerned that it's been moving too slow. It's a matter of urgency that we have another look at our calls to action and maybe get a fresh start.

MG: Murray Sinclair, why is there not that sense of urgency that Walten little child is calling for?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: That becomes a question of performing a balancing act because they may perform two balancing acts. One is a political balancing act. And so if they feel that they're going to lose support by doing something, no matter how difficult and how right it is, then they hesitate to get involved. And there is some of that going on, particularly at provincial levels. But in addition to that, they perform a physical balancing, which is what we're not prepared to spend the money there and we're prepared to spend the money elsewhere. So we're prepared to give corporations tax breaks. And those kinds of institutional behaviours are really the key to reconciliation, because in 1991, when I was co-author of the Aboriginal Justice Enquiry report in Manitoba, what I said then was, if you get rid of all of the racists and all of the positions of government policing, justice, health, you will still have a problem because you will have a system that is functioning based upon policies, priorities and decisions that direct how things are to be done that come from a time when racism was very blatant.

MG: So practically, how do you tackle that then? I mean, it's that long game and again, with the 94 calls to action, those get at that. But but given, as you said, the political considerations that people make, the financial considerations that people make, the fact that, as you said earlier, reconciliation means that there are two sides of the table that are having a dialogue. How do you start to get at that larger systemic change?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, I'm glad you asked that question. I hope we have enough time to answer because I wrote a 6000 page report about that. Let me see if I can give you the short version. There are probably three major problems that one has to think about as we go forward. One is that there are some immediate needs out there that really need to be addressed. And when you look at our calls to action, the first twenty five of those calls to action are about those immediate needs. We need to do things to address the overall apprehension of children into the child welfare system, because it's not really a child welfare system. It's a child removal system. Much of the residential schools where. So you've got those first 25 calls to action in which we call for changes immediately to the way that the child welfare services are delivered, the way that justice services are delivered, the way that educational services are delivered, in the way that the medical services are delivered, because it's in those areas that indigenous people confront and are confronted by racism in a direct way every day. And in the long term, of course, it's about getting the institutions to begin to look at the way that they are making decisions in their own systemic biases within the institutions. But the real long term solution is in the importance of educating our children, because if we can educate our children and raise them to understand that this is the way that we used to do things and this was the wrong that came out of this way, then we will also educate them to learn to respect each other from the beginning of their contract and to maintain that respect for each other throughout their educational career so that when they grow up to be the leaders of the future, they will have an innate sense of mutual respect.

MG: When you talk about leadership and leadership on those issues, at the highest point that comes to the doorstep of the prime minister, I remember speaking with you in the midst of the there was a riot in some ways and the storming of the lobster pens that were controlled by the Miguel fishermen. And you had said that you believe that the Justin Trudeau in his heart was still committed to reconciliation, that you believed that he was he was honest in that commitment. Do you believe that the prime minister, somebody who, when he came into that office, said the most important relationship was the nation to nation relationship? Has he lived up to that promise?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: No. And I thinkthat's a fair assessment, that there's a lot more work that he could have done, more work that you can still do as prime minister of this country that is there to be done. And not a lot of the changes that we could have seen to this point in time have not been affected because there hasn't been enough internal change made to the way the government is doing business. For example, you know, I've spoken to the prime minister both. As I said, the one thing that I would have expected is that there would have been a re-education in every appointment process of senior managers within government who had a full understanding of what the Truth and Reconciliation Commission said, so that they believed in reconciliation, they understood reconciliation. They knew what to look for in the way that they were managing their department so that they could change that. In addition to that, the legislative processes have not been taken that I think should have been taken. Romero psychoanalysis Bill, for example, that brought forward the question of legislating the United Nations declaration on the Rights of Indigenous people as a framework for reconciliation should have been a government bill years ago. The government has announced recently that they're going to put it as a government bill, but it's something that could have been done five or six years ago.

MG: When you confront the prime minister with those issues, what does it mean, you know, without betraying too much of those conversations? But what's his response?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: I can tell you that I honestly believe that he understands

MG: if he understands this, if he understands, why would he be held back then, though? And I just I think some people will be struggling with how to understand that

MURRAY SINCLAIR: you need to people don't appreciate the difficulties that go into governing, that changing the way that we govern, the changing the way that government works. It's like trying to turn a ship using a small rudder in the back of it. You have to get everybody pulling on one side. You have to get everybody manoeuvring that. So that it begins to turn and then it begins to turn ever so slowly and you get you can't even perceive the redirection of it until you're actually facing a different direction.

MG: How do you avoid cynicism and how do you avoid stoking cynicism amongst people who have a much shorter expectation of a timeline than the long game that you're playing? Because there are a lot of people who there are a lot of people who who want action yesterday and they're not interested in the boat turning slowly. They want the boat turned around now.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: You know, and I warned them at the end of the tier, see, we have to recognise that it took us seven generations government action and oppression and societal action and oppression to get to this point in time, seven generations of indigenous children were put through these schools and created this mess that we now have. It's going to take us a number of generations before we can say that we have begun to change things in it. And in order for us to do that, every single generation has to be trying to affect that kind of change towards reconciliation that we were trying to affect about doing something about indigenous people. Hundred and fifty years ago, so that we have to turn that one hundred and fifty years of negativity into generations of positivity.

MG: You're writing your memoirs and you have said that you want to answer four questions. Where am I from? Where am I going? Why am I here and who am I? And I'm not going to ask you to write the memoirs for us on the radio and answer all of those questions. But as you leave the Senate, how do you answer the question, who am I?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, in a very personal level, it is about understanding your sense of self and understanding your identity and understanding your role in life, understanding what the history of your people are and that all of them contributed to who I am today. So every generation it doubles. And within a relatively small number of generations, there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who have contributed to my existence here on this earth. At this time, I am not just a product of my law school and my judicial career. I am also a product of all of the efforts and all of the thoughts and wishes and the dreams of all of those people who went before me.

MG: It's a real pleasure, as always, to talk to you. And I hope when the book is done, we have the chance to talk again. In the meantime, Senator, thank you very much.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Thank you very much. It's always a good time to talk with you.

MG: That's my conversation with retired Senator Murray Sinclair from January of this year. That is The Current for this Thursday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's queue. For more than 50 years, the Abenaki filmmaker Alan Suboxone has been pointing a lens at Canada. She is the winner of the Glenn Gould PRISE, was honoured this year at the Toronto International Film Festival. She is a national treasure. And you will hear her conversation with Tom Power coming up on cue in just a few moments time here on CBC Radio One. Jeremy Dutcher is another indigenous artist with a remarkable career in the arts. He's a member of the Tobique First Nation in New Brunswick. And he spent hours in the archives at the Canadian Museum of History transcribing the traditional songs of his ancestors and the elastically language Equador. Read your. The first track on his debut album is called Mygind Death Chant in English, it's an incredible piece of music. And when he released this, he wrote this song calls back and reaches forward across time concerning indigenous continuation and what it can mean for all those who have gone before and all those yet to come. And the song includes a recording made over 110 years ago of a speech by his ancestor, Jim Paul. I have never heard anything quite like this before. This is Jeremy Dutcher. I Matt Galloway thanks for listening to the current Equador. Are. And on. The new head of.

Unidentified: Here. Widow. Oh.

Thursday September 30, 2021 Full Transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode